Getting fed up with our uselessness [Archive]

MyChatBot

03-30-2006, 08:28 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I believe the OP has one point...I'm not sure any other class has so many complete major lines of class ability rendered useless.SoE clearly (and I'm not saying this out of frustration...I mean, look at the multiple changes/nerfs/indecision) is confused about how a crowd control class should be provisioned. There is no doubt about this.On the one hand, the devs, and even blackwatch, has said, that "default tactics" (i.e., "bring two of class X and you win&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> is being designed away from.On the other hand, an illusionists whole POINT is, "make the mob unable to attack". So, SoE has a conflict; the mobs HAVE to attack to make the fight challenging, but, illusionists are able to prevent this.So what's the fix?Make illusionists virtually useless in their main class ability, which is, crowd/mob control. Confine them to the Prismatic line, work with some of their AExp abilities, but....having a mob rendered dumb for the entire fight just because you brought an illusionist is unacceptable. So nerf it. I mean, we can't even stun. WE CAN'T EVEN STUN.Now, how does this play out. I am a lvl 60 illus. With masters. I attempted to assist some guildies on a lvl 49 epic X 2 mob the other day.I was virtually useless. And I know what I'm doing. ELEVEN levels above the mob, four group members, and we were not able to defeat the mob (he has three epic X 1 encounter linked friends).Aside from my two pets (construct and personae), and illusory allies, and my mid-strength dots, I may as well have not been there.This state of affairs is unacceptable. We did not stand a chance, and for god's sake the point of me being there was to control the linked mobs. Guess what? Next time, they'll say, "yeah, the illus is online. But he can't do anything. So if we have an open slot, meh, add the fodder. But any other class would be preferable".And I was ELEVEN levels higher. For god's sake the mob was grey.Unacceptable. Broken. Yes, we are very good for general grouping, more so than most think, especially in KoS. But for the REAL fights, meh, we can move some mana around, we can lay on some bleh dots, throw around pets, and provide some ok regen. Overall, no reason to hold up the fight because you couldn't find an illusionist.I am convinced that the secret of succeeding as an illusionist is to merely spit the devs. We are not a well integrated class, at all. Virtually every single other class has a reason to be at an epic fight except us.Bring it on, and please don't say, "well, when you're 65, it'll all change". That's ridiculous.SoE, you are trying to design away from default tactics? Well, you are designing to one default tactic, and go ahead post a survey, test it......default = don't bother trying to find an illusionist. In the big fight, they're frosting, but there's no meat. Bring one to help you get there, then have 'em sit in the corner and go for corn dogs while we win the fight.Oh, and if it isn't illusionist specific....give it to somebody else. Because you know, they are more valuable in the big fights. Which we need to get to level this+1.Thanks SoE. Good thing I'm not a hard core raider anymore or there's no way I'd play EQ2 as an illusionist.<div></div><p>Message Edited by MyChatBot on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:36 PM</span></p>

MrDiz

03-30-2006, 01:55 PM

<blockquote><hr>MyChatBot wrote: We are not a well integrated class, at all. Virtually every single other class has a reason to be at an epic fight except us.</blockquote>My guardian has no reason to be in raids because our bezerker has better gear. My templar has no reason to be in raids because we have more than enough healers. My illusionist is one of the first characters invited into raid when my guild raids.Different classes for different people I guess. I love my illusionist. My raid guild love my illusionist. My illusionist is the most useful character I have, with the possible exception of my swashbuckler if I ever get him high enough <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

auk

03-30-2006, 10:46 PM

I love my illusionist too, even on raids. Thats not to say I disagree with anything here, I just love my Illusionist no matter how flawed. In fact, I wonder how I would feel if the class was perfect? I'd probably get bored eventually.<div></div>

Barobra

03-31-2006, 01:40 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>auk wrote:I love my illusionist too, even on raids. Thats not to say I disagree with anything here, I just love my Illusionist no matter how flawed. In fact, I wonder how I would feel if the class was perfect? I'd probably get bored eventually.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats an interesting outlook on things. :smileyhappy:

MrDiz

03-31-2006, 03:51 PM

<blockquote><hr>auk wrote:I love my illusionist too, even on raids. Thats not to say I disagree with anything here, I just love my Illusionist no matter how flawed. In fact, I wonder how I would feel if the class was perfect? I'd probably get bored eventually.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Dont worry it cant happen. Every single class is totally broken, utterly useless in raids and a total slap in the face of whatever player is playing them. Doesnt matter if its a templar, an illusionist or guardian. They are all broke beyond playability <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But at least they arent as broke as carpenters.

WikiView

03-31-2006, 08:05 PM

i dont see wizards whine about a mob is cold immune.. we cant be ubah all the time<div></div>

trenor

03-31-2006, 08:07 PM

<div>Lets take a way all your weapons there swashy and make a ob immune to physical damage. Its ok cause you cans still hit him with your debuff. Oh, and dont whine about it when it happens cause all mobs are immune to something</div>

trenor

03-31-2006, 08:12 PM

<div></div>Also allow me to say i love my illusionist als if not id play another class. However, the buck has to stop somewhere. Fyi we have only one type of damage period if the mob is immune or resistant to that type of damage there is nothing else to cast on it. Yes, if a mob is immune to cold guess what you have heat damage. Or vice versa. Since we are so severely limited in this area when making a mob immune or so high that he cant even be hit by your spells (virtual immunity) the end of the vault guy it renders us virtually ineffective.

WikiView

03-31-2006, 08:14 PM

u can still hit ur nukes and regen other ppl´s pwr..sigh<div></div>

trenor

03-31-2006, 08:18 PM

<div></div>Pardon, and what class thatdo you play we dont have any nukes that aren t menatal my friend please get a clue

trenor

03-31-2006, 08:18 PM

<div></div>oh and sigh

WikiView

03-31-2006, 08:20 PM

<div></div>still got utility...edit: if i cant hit the mob.. its kinda hard to land debuffs as a swashy so im screwed aswell..<div></div><p>Message Edited by WikiView on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:26 PM</span></p>

WAPCE

03-31-2006, 08:41 PM

<blockquote><hr>WikiView wrote:<div></div>still got utility...<hr></blockquote>I think you've lost sight of the original purpose of the thread, you might want to scroll up. That utility is now eroding against heroic non-nameds and even _solo_ mobs.

Pins

03-31-2006, 08:51 PM

<blockquote><hr>WikiView wrote:i dont see wizards whine about a mob is cold immune.. we cant be ubah all the time<div></div><hr></blockquote>This is hilarious. Go back to T5 raiding pre-LU13. Tell me again you don't see wizards whining about cold immune mobs, then come back to me.

Chrysostom

03-31-2006, 09:15 PM

Gotta weigh in on this with regards to the clueless wizard.ALL epics are immune to our abililites. Do you think for a second that if ALL epics were immune to elemental nukes wizards would not complain?<div></div>

WikiView

04-01-2006, 01:34 AM

lets all be able to permastun a epic... bring 2-3 illus and it could be possible unless they are thinking about using the same pvp ruleset (aka cant stun the epic x2 after the stun) on epics<div></div>

Impetus

04-01-2006, 01:43 AM

<blockquote><hr>WikiView wrote:lets all be able to permastun a epic... bring 2-3 illus and it could be possible unless they are thinking about using the same pvp ruleset (aka cant stun the epic x2 after the stun) on epics<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, that's what enchanters are asking for - the ability to permastun epics. Why do people always bring up this lame strawman argument? Or maybe it's a false dichotomy, I don't know.Point is, enchanters being able to affect epic encounters with their control spells is not an either/or proposition. There are more choices other than "Permastun" and "Useless."Just like there are more choices for wizards than "Instakill Nuke" and "Completely Immune."Besides, the OP wasn't even about epics. It was about regular heroics.<p>Message Edited by Impetus on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:47 PM</span></p>

MyChatBot

04-01-2006, 05:06 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>We are NOT asking for the ability to permastun epics. You don't have to be a genius to see that'll never happen so there's no point in asking for it. We are asking to have our primary abilities, the whole reason we rolled and level'd illusionists, useful in an epic fight. And in their current state, they are not...not even a little.And now, this is extending to heroics."Point is, enchanters being able to affect epic encounters with their control spells is not an either/or proposition. There are more choices other than "Permastun" and "Useless."Absolutely correct. This is what I mean by integration. It's not a question of, "so and so class has better gear so this one is useless". We're talking about the two main abilities of Illusionists, the whole reason for becoming one...stunning, and mezzing. Crowd control.If the fight is all epics, ALL our primary abilities are useless. I can think of no other class so entirely crippled in an epic fight.Look at any guild's illusionist count. I'm in a guild almost 200 strong, and there is one active illusionist...me. One of the strongest guilds on my server asked if I'd be interested in jumping ship so I could hit bigger raids...I was flattered! Wow, a strong guild that NEEDS illusionists!IllusionistS, plural? Wrong again. The only reason they asked me is because 60+ illusionists on my server are rare to the point of many people never having grouped with one, and one of their two illusionists gave up the class out of frustration (started a conjuror).Sure, I bet you get invites to all the raids...if you're one of two Illusionists in your guild. And see what happens if you drop your mana regen.<div></div><p>For general grouping, and soloing, I find the class satisfactory and enjoy it. But in epic fights, when actually fighting an epic (not just getting there), our primary abilities may as well vanish from our hotbars. How is that right? It would be the equivalent of a fighter only being able to kick. <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>At least make Barrier of Intellect work. The regen is long enough, and duration short enough, to make a default tactic of just bringing three illusionists to win flawed. And, in this case, an illusoionist could potentially prevent a wipe by getting in there, laying on 6 seconds of stun/mez, and giving the group a chance to rebuild the tank. I mean, something. But nothing, well, that's no good. <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by MyChatBot on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:19 PM</span></p>

WikiView

04-01-2006, 05:20 AM

i can follow u on that.but instead of saying; [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] WE ARE F*CKING USELESS!!11!!oneone!!1!!eleven!try to give the devs some alternatives.atm im quite happy with my illu tho i can see it can be frustrating to play it on raids (who havent been there) cuz its like being a buff bot. the best alternative ive seen to /useless is the pvp ruleset taken to use on epics (havent seen anything else alternative..)<div></div>

Queue

04-01-2006, 09:40 AM

<div>The fact of the matter is that without immunities and/or very high mental resists on mobs, an Illusionist can solo any non-epic in the game. In order to not give everything insane mental resists which would remove our ability to solo but also render us completely useless for groups also, they added the stun immunity. Yes, it is a pain and I hate it, but there is simply no other simple (key word!) solution.</div><div> </div><div>For this tier, I think we are just going to have to suck it up. However, I firmly have faith that the designers are exploring other design options and not something so completely invasive as stun/stifle immunity.</div><div> </div><div>I certainly understand and sympathize with the frustration, but I really do not think squeeling about it is going to do too much. I am certain the designers are aware.</div>

Chrysostom

04-02-2006, 12:00 AM

There have been many threads filled with alternatives.The current outcry arises not from our raid abilites, but because we are now being locked out of HEROIC content as well. What... should we only be able to be chanters when fighting solo mobs?As for faith in the devs, they burned alot of trust with their lauded combat revamp. Fully tested they said, balanced they said... If they got things so completly wrong when balancing the class was the SPECIFIC purpose for the update, what are we to expect? Heck, some of my control spells specifically say that the DO work against epics... but they do not.Further, we have been waiting for MONTHS with regards this issue. We got one post basically akin to "we feel your pain" and vauge promises of great ideas about what to do to aid our plight. That quieted down the communty for a couple of months. Most enchaters decided to wait and suffer through raids, satisfied with the heroic content until we were fixed. Now we see these same issues arising in the heroic content; it is infuriating. And still not a word about our class being reviewed again.To reinterate for the lackwitted. WE DO NOT WANT TO PERMASTUN EPICS! But we also want the core functions of our class not to be completely useless. Mez/stun/stiffle/power drain/charm are what make a chanter.<div></div>

TangBaBa

04-02-2006, 03:17 AM

<div></div><p>I am thinking that this may not be a chanter only issue.</p><p>With my warlock and my summoner, I will stun the mob only to find myself *still* receiving non-DOT, melee damage. That, added with the fact that mobs will sometimes "warp" right next to me even while they are rooted is becoming quite aggravating.</p><p>Keep /bug-ing it- hopefully they'll fix it soon.</p>

Queue

04-02-2006, 10:27 AM

<div></div><div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Chrysostom wrote:There have been many threads filled with alternatives.The current outcry arises not from our raid abilites, but because we are now being locked out of HEROIC content as well. What... should we only be able to be chanters when fighting solo mobs?</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I understand that this is a thread not about raiding, but about heroics. I do not believe that I mentioned epics in my post at all. All I said was that, without something specifically to keep us from it, Illusionists can solo any non-epic out there. We could do whole zones solo if we wanted. We certainly did back in Tier 6. Heck, even occasionally I still run through the Nest up to the Chamberlain (he is a heroic that is stun/stifle immune) just for kicks. It is pretty obvious as we are only one of a few classes who can do this that this solo-ability is unintentional.</font></p><p>As for faith in the devs, they burned alot of trust with their lauded combat revamp. Fully tested they said, balanced they said... If they got things so completly wrong when balancing the class was the SPECIFIC purpose for the update, what are we to expect? Heck, some of my control spells specifically say that the DO work against epics... but they do not.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I do not understand this at all. Illusionists are 10 times better after the revamp than they were before. We are better solo, small groups, full groups, and in raids...across the board. And I <em>do </em>agree that our roles change so dramatically in raids that it does need to be looked at. But, as you so eloquently stated in your first paragraph, this thread "arises not from our raid abilites."</font>Further, we have been waiting for MONTHS with regards this issue. We got one post basically akin to "we feel your pain" and vauge promises of great ideas about what to do to aid our plight. That quieted down the communty for a couple of months. Most enchaters decided to wait and suffer through raids, satisfied with the heroic content until we were fixed. Now we see these same issues arising in the heroic content; it is infuriating. And still not a word about our class being reviewed again.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Are you sure you are not talking about raids... =)</font></p><p>To reinterate for the lackwitted. WE DO NOT WANT TO PERMASTUN EPICS! But we also want the core functions of our class not to be completely useless. Mez/stun/stiffle/power drain/charm are what make a chanter.</p><div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">Agreed! And well put...but you still seem to be talking about epics. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I assume we can stretch that into the stun/stifle immune heroics being what you mean? I really do not see another simple solution other than immunities. *shrug* Maybe go through and flag spell by spell as being immune or not and give us something. Make it so that we can use our Forsake Will line but not our mez'ing? Something like that would keep down the solo aspect of it. But I suspect that it will also be a lot of trouble to make that work in the code. Again, I really do not pretend to know, but the stun immunity seemed quick and easy and that is what we are stuck with for now.</font></p><font color="#ffff00"></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Maybe I am too much of a half-full person and am just happy that they did not simply crank up the resists to be mentally insane so that we can at least use our damage spells. That would have been the easiest, I would venture, and they at least took the time to add the immunity stuff.</font><p></p><p></p><hr></blockquote></div>

Chrysostom

04-02-2006, 01:36 PM

My previous post contained many references to our abilities regarding epic content. My hope was to illustrate that the current angst arises because heroic immunites tap into that same well of frustration.Further, from a game design perspective, it makes no sence to give players tools that they can only use when the tools are NOT needed. However if a situation arises where they may be needed, then you are artificially disallowed their use.As for our abilities post lu13: we are MUCH better off in many respects. However, our abilites now are not nearly what they were at the time of the revamp. If you think we are overpowered now.. then we were gods then. Chanters came out of the revamp so grossly overpowered that one wonders if their abilites were ever play tested. Now we are facing further fallout from the failer of LU13 to "get it right".I for one will fully admit that both chanters are too powerful in the solo department. But we pay for that by being gutted on raids and now it seems on heroics. The current situation is grossly unfair on multiple levels and chanters have gotten almost complete silence from the devs.<div></div>

Queue

04-02-2006, 05:53 PM

<div></div><p>I agree wholeheartedly with almost all of that.</p><p>Except for the about the revamp. There was nothing that I could not kill after the Roots being changed to breakable again that I could kill while the roots were unbreakable. It was certainly many times faster with a solid root, but the ability to solo never changed. So, while we were drastically toned down, I would contend that we are nearly as powerful as we were at the time of the revamp. And I am also not really sure why you see this as the fall out from the revamp. The techniques used to solo heroics now could be used as far back as release. In fact, that was how I managed to beat the solo arena in Splitpaw. It was my experiences from Splitpaw, way before the combat revamp, that help me develop my personal solo style. The primary difference between then and now is the damage output that we have now. Assuming one had the patience, you could certainly kill heroics before the revamp. That changed to super fast solo'ing with the revamp and an unbreakable root. And then it changed back again to the patience department, just not needing as much patience anymore. =)</p><p>As far as saying that we have raid issues and that justifies having insane solo abilities, I think we all know that argument is not going to fly. If someone in my guild says something about my soloing a named, I certainly do think in my head about dying to green solo mobs before the revamp and feel a little deserved that now things are different. But, I also know that you cannot design like that. As long as Illusionists can solo, say, Halls of Fate if there were no stun immunity, the designers will have to take special steps to keep us from doing so. The stun immunity is simply that special step. Highly invasive? Absolutely. Important? I would think so, but I guess anyone can make the case and a single class or two soloing content normally requiring a group is not that big a deal.</p><p>I just do not see where we, as the illusionist community, are really throwing out ideas on this specific problem. It seems like, as shown again here, it will just quickly devolve into raid frustrations. So, I ask, how would you fix this dilemma? How would you keep our core abilities intact, yet address our ability to solo heroics, even named heroics?</p>

trenor

04-02-2006, 10:30 PM

<div></div>Oh sure we could solo it it would take 5 hours but hey it could be done for us. Fyi there is another class than can solo it also in about 2 hours start to finish. Illusionist would never solo something like that unless they had a lot of free time on thier hand our damage output is plenty to discourage such things in there and not to mention thtat the mobs have ranged hits that one shot us melee

zit

04-02-2006, 11:24 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Queue wrote:<div></div><p>I just do not see where we, as the illusionist community, are really throwing out ideas on this specific problem. It seems like, as shown again here, it will just quickly devolve into raid frustrations. So, I ask, how would you fix this dilemma? How would you keep our core abilities intact, yet address our ability to solo heroics, even named heroics?</p><hr></blockquote><p>the fact to be able to kill heroics doesnt mean a class is imbalanced. the Devs themselves stated that the only thing that would make this imbalanced is if a class could solo heroic content more efficiently than they could with a team. which is not the case for our class.</p><p>and if you cannot see the ideas that has been thrown out on this specific problem, you maybe should search the forums a bit and read the hundrets of posts on that topic that have been brought up over the past half year.</p>

Chrysostom

04-02-2006, 11:59 PM

<div></div>Friend, you read too much into my post. I never said we were justified in our solo abilites; I was pointing out the incredible imbalance between solo and raids (well now heroics too it seems).<div></div><p>Message Edited by Chrysostom on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:00 PM</span></p>

Chrysostom

04-03-2006, 12:13 AM

Let me break it down. I cannot help my friends now on heroic content like I used to be able too. Previously I was specifically asked to come and help with encouters like cq4, cazel, and PP. I suck on raids but I had my place in my guild and group of friends. I the current situation I have to expalin to then that I will hardly ba able to contribute at all to the final fight in the new instances. This leave me fealing pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] useless. I can certainly help fight to the final creatures, but I am not at all needed for those fights: they are easy by design. But on the harder fights I am artificially locked out of the encounter. What role am I supposed to fill in my group? I do not fit the present trinity of tank/healer/DPS, my buff are nigh-worthless, the fights are not long enough to require power regen. What use am I to my friends? Do I get invited? certainly, I am in a great guild, but I know that I have no real purpose being in that group; I cannot make a differnce now even on HEROIC content. that is just lame.<div></div>

Queue

04-03-2006, 05:15 PM

<div>Oh sure we could solo it it would take 5 hours but hey it could be done for us. Fyi there is another class than can solo it also in about 2 hours start to finish. Illusionist would never solo something like that unless they had a lot of free time on thier hand our damage output is plenty to discourage such things in there and not to mention thtat the mobs have ranged hits that one shot us melee</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">It really does not matter how long it would take, it is simply that it could be done. And it seems pretty obvious to me that it is not meant to be done. I also do not really see why you bring up what other classes can and cannot do. If you want to point out the two or three other classes that could or can do it, it would only make sense to mention the other 20ish classes that cannot do it and then take a look and decide if it is intended.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Illusionists would very much solo something like this. Maybe not everyday, but every so often. That was shown with Poet's Palace last tier.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Regarding ranged hits (I really do not understand, but...), mobs do not ranged when mezzed and our mez is greater than most any, if not any and every, aggro range.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div>the fact to be able to kill heroics doesnt mean a class is imbalanced. the Devs themselves stated that the only thing that would make this imbalanced is if a class could solo heroic content more efficiently than they could with a team. which is not the case for our class.<p>and if you cannot see the ideas that has been thrown out on this specific problem, you maybe should search the forums a bit and read the hundrets of posts on that topic that have been brought up over the past half year.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Fair enough about the heroic bit. I should have kept it in the context of soloing entire zones and named heroics. Killing an average heroic is no big deal, as seen by the fact that they did not give stun immunity to every heroic out there. But, the fact of the matter is, and I bring proof of the addition of stun immunites, players are not meant to solo certain content. This include certain zones and named critters. They just upped the rate of master dropping from named, I doubt they really want Joe Illusionist repeatedly killing the Carnovingian when the design is for a group to do so.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">As for the hundreds or so posts on the topic from the last half year, I find it particularly interesting that this has been talked about for the past half year as stun immune heroics have been around less than two months. ?!?</font></p><p>Let me break it down. I cannot help my friends now on heroic content like I used to be able too. Previously I was specifically asked to come and help with encouters like cq4, cazel, and PP. I suck on raids but I had my place in my guild and group of friends. I the current situation I have to expalin to then that I will hardly ba able to contribute at all to the final fight in the new instances. This leave me fealing pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] useless. I can certainly help fight to the final creatures, but I am not at all needed for those fights: they are easy by design. But on the harder fights I am artificially locked out of the encounter. What role am I supposed to fill in my group? I do not fit the present trinity of tank/healer/DPS, my buff are nigh-worthless, the fights are not long enough to require power regen. What use am I to my friends? Do I get invited? certainly, I am in a great guild, but I know that I have no real purpose being in that group; I cannot make a differnce now even on HEROIC content. that is just lame.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I understand all this. I even agree with most of it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">However, to say that you feel worthless or that you do not fit into the tank/healer/DPS is very misleading too. We do, actually, a lot of DPS. Add to that utility (roots, Mana Flow, Tribulation, a Pet) and I have never felt in any way useless. If they were going to take away something, it would have been nice to be thrown a bone to replace. Up our damage (but the purest enchanters would just complain about that, I feel) or up the utility or ... something ... and I think that would be a better argument than just this-is-lame-change-it-back (or whatever it is people feel...I really cannot tell). I am down with good, inventive ideas. I am into it. But I just do not see any. I am just trying to figure out what you guys are thinking.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">So, I sympathize. And if this thread was just for everyone to come and express how frustrated they are, then so be it. I misunderstood it to be more of a "I am fed up with this; why didn't they do..." Something constructive, I suppose. Instead, as mentioned, it just seems everyone wants to vent about raiding or how things have changed and they suck. *shrug* I just do not feel that way. If something is stun immune, I crank up the DPS to another notch if I can. Or I make sure to cast Transient so that my root will land on the berserker...even though I know it will land anyway, insurance never hurts. Or whatever else. It is not like you just walk away from the keyboard because some spells cannot be used.</font></p></div><p> </p><p> </p>

Barobra

04-03-2006, 06:02 PM

<div></div><div>Too play devils advocate. Ever since roost came out I started to try to solo it just to see if I could. I did easily, getting it done without any deaths, could finish it in 1 hour. Getting 3 masters sometimes in one run. So I can see WHY they would do something like this (with immunities) but this does not mean I agree.</div><div> </div><div>I have looked at HOF from a solo point of view along with nest. In nest they have stopped it very well simply by putting see invis mobs everywhere and adding a guy with 30 adds in the way. I MIGHT be able to do nest but it would be soooo time consuming its not even worth it. HOF is the same...there is see invis mobs everywhere and killing everything in the way would just take too long. There is no need to make them immune to mez. Just adding see invis mobs is the answer to me. Now maybe a necro that has FD might be able to squirm there way past and FD but I seriously doubt it. You have to kill everything with see invis. Which adds allottttt of time for a solo person to try.</div>

jun

04-04-2006, 12:38 AM

<div></div><p>Hrm... I still disagree with the 'immunity solution' as the only viable option. I do agree that it was the 'simplest solution', just not the right one in my opinion. As far as asking our community to come up with solutions is like asking YOU to build the next space shuttle. If anything is certain, those types of questions are a no-brainer. No one (unless they are a dev on the EQ2 team) has the insight to make viable suggestions for solving our problems. I'm not saying we aren't capable, we just don't know the ins/outs of the whole 'class balance' vs encounters scenarios to make a good suggestion. Lol... however, I am just as capable as any of you at throwing shots in the dark <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Considering EPIC and some HEROIC encounters were never meant to be solo encounters, why not adjust the resists to being too high for a solo character? You really don't expect me to zone in (if I was able to) and take on Lockjaw all by myself now do you? I don't think its unreasonable to assume TEAMWORK from other raid characters combining their efforts to debuff those high resists enough to allow me a shot at a stun/stifle or mez once in a while is out of the question. The mobs can outright resist, break early, kill casters/debuffers and all sorts of other things to muddy up well concieved strategies to keep it permamez'd (or whatever ubah Illusionist ability you want to toss in here).</p><p>That actually sounds more reasonable than 'immune' across the board. Something along those lines would take the evolution of encounter strategies off into an entirely different realm. The amount of coordination it would take to maintain the debuffs would be a task in itself. We already know that you can't stack those effects, so it would by no means 'trivialize' the encounter because you have more than one Illusionists casting stun while the other casts mez. Chaining either of those effects are almost as impossible as maintaining all the coordination for holding the debuffs in check.</p><p>There are possibilities... and not all of them revolve around tank/healer/dps. To simply state we are not balanced correctly (or fairly) is a very open ended suggestion (and one I am guilty of as well). Illusionists seem to have difficulties sticking with the same 'balance' issue... is it imbalanced with regards to epics, heroics, or other classes we share abilities with? The majority of our confusion reading each other's posts stem from these 3 topics of imbalance. In some cases, the imbalance stretches across all 3 areas I think, and thats what makes it so easy to lump them all together.</p><p>I can live with being broken as long as I KNOW that SOE KNOWS we are broken and are trying to remedy the situation. It is also nice to see someone else on the forum that doesn't take the default hate stance against the devs with regards to our issues. If I understand anything about the devs there... they do not hesitate to implement the 'easy' solution as quickly as possible. Based on that, the issues that face the Illusionist class cannot be THAT simple to solve, or we would have seen some fixes by now. As far as I am convinced, Illusionists issues must be the most complex, game-altering issues SOE devs have to deal with. I am a developer (not for SOE or any EQ game), so I know a little bit about the business of coding, logic, and engine designs.</p><p>What they have produced in this game is by far the most enjoyable, and complex logic I have ever had the pleasure of adventuring in. So yeah, I can find ways to cut them some slack even though I don't always agree with the way they do things, or when they don't respond as quickly as I would like.</p><p> </p><p>Kailen</p>

trenor

04-04-2006, 01:00 AM

<div>Kos is not dof nor even close to it. The mobs one shot you at 70 and this is something that a few very select mobs in any instance in dof could do. Our dps is absolutely horrible now and i cant see where you think it got better. Our spells do not scale properly with mobs hp. We are now effectively tier 4 dps. Meaning a fury and warden regularly out dps you and heal parse it if you dont believe me. This is solo so please dont hand it to me. There are more than 3 classes that can solo heroic instances. Many classes can but let me tell you something if ya wanna try -bring some repair kits with you. Can it be done. Yes . Will it take 5 hours yes will you have to clear a ton of trash yes and will you die , Yes, many times. Do you like the thrill of trying certainly!!</div><div> </div><div>This is nothing less than the bs cheap way out make it immune to stun. The funny thing is Helen Keller could have saw the community outrage on this coming. Can't be too sure if you play a chanter (Illusionist specifically) cause if so you would see this as another brick in the wall.</div><div> </div><div>Fizbang</div>

zit

04-04-2006, 01:23 AM

<div></div><p>i get the impression some ppl would be very surprised if they knew how many classes are able to solo not only heroics, but <em>named</em> heroics and how many classes have been able to solo roost and even PP.</p><p>now, i can understand the arguement that this should be prevented in one way or the other. however to simply put mez/stifle/stun immunity on mobs is a very lame solution and shows a significant lack of creativity. and although immune <em>heroics</em> are somewhat new in the game the problem of mez/stun immune mobs is not a new one. it has been discussed a lot and possible solutions have been brought up and a lot of suggestions been made over the past half year. Just for reminder here the Dev post on this issue from before KoS release:</p><p><font color="#ff9900"><font color="#ff3300"><em>We are aware that enchanters in particular get frustrated by having spell lines that basically have no effect on epic mobs. It's a topic we've been discussing a lot lately, though we haven't posted our course of action yet. Again, silence on our part doesn't mean we don't see an issue or don't care about it; it just means we're deciding what we feel the best course of action to be.</em></font></font><font color="#ff9900"></font>so what was their decision finally? what did they feel the best course of action to be? to give immunities even to normal group content??</p><p> </p>

Queue

04-04-2006, 02:33 AM

<div>Many classes can but let me tell you something if ya wanna try -bring some repair kits with you. Can it be done. Yes . Will it take 5 hours yes will you have to clear a ton of trash yes and will you die , Yes, many times. Do you like the thrill of trying certainly!</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">I do the Nest every now and again when I get bored up the the Chamberlain (as I mentioned, he is stun/stifle immune). It certainly does not take five hours nor do I die even once, much less many times. *shrug* I guess if I get lazy I might die, but I would say it has been four or five trips in without a death. But, yes, you do have to clear lots of trash, I guess. Single up arrowed mobs are killed in one stun cycle. Double ups are killed in two. Triple ups around three if you get lucky, but quite often four. The nameds are lots and lots of stun cycles, but if you know the zone you can figure up about how long it would take with that.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">I have thought about the Den or Sepulcher, but the trash-to-named ratio is awful there and I do not know right off hand what are stun/stifle immune so I do not really bother. HoF is the only other one and even the heroic drakes six or seven encounters in are immune so that is not even an option. And I am just not sold on the idea that these should be soloable. And, as it stands, the immunity is the only thing that keeps us from doing so.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">As far as increased resistance someone mentioned, that would be a tough pill to swallow. Illusionists only have mental lines of spells. Unlike a wizard, for instance, if the mob is cold immune they switch to heat. Same with warlocks and disease/poison. Not to say it is not a pain, I am sure, but they can keep doing a little something. If a mob in mental resistant, then illusionist are just out of luck. We cannot even contribute damage at that point. Just keep casting Abolish Hope and hope for it to land for a little resist lowering. With the stun/stifle immunity, we can at least contribute damage (which despite popular opinion, it seems, we do quite well). I would, personally, like them to go back and flag our short group stun (the Dazzling Array line) for use against these mobs. It would buy the healer a second or three to cure Debilitate in HoF, at least. But I would guess that the mechanics of that might be a little difficult. Again, that is just my guess, but it does not seem that would be terribly overpowering. Or give us a seperate DD spell line called False Confidence that is flagged only for use only against these immune mobs. Kind of a, "Ok, tough guy, no stuns. How about 2k damage every now an again instead of 600." Just something to balance out the give and take of it all. *shrug* But I still do not think the purest illusionist would care for that solution. That is really why I am curious about people's ideas. Give us _something_ to balance out those stun mobs. Heck, take our Phase (take it please!) and exchange it for something specific to these encounters and I would be happy.</font></div><div> </div><div> </div>

trenor

04-04-2006, 08:23 AM

<div></div><p>I agree with ya in one point que if we gave up damage for crowd control (which we have please see fury dps and you thought you were a mage pfft). Then I want my 1000+ nukes back for all the mobs i cant cc. Yes, going a little over the top but come on this is getting down right ridiculous. I feel lilke theres a giant target on all the illusionist heads out there and sony is just trying to land the killing blow!</p><p> </p><p>FIz</p><p> </p><p>P.s.</p><p>To all the posters that created illusionists and pled them to 70 in 3 months you have no comprehension what all of the posters on this board have gone through in the last year and a half so yes if we soound negative this is why. I am not going into detail on it but suffice to say other classes posted on our boards to tell us that they fealt bad for us.I love my illusionist and all he does and still do.</p>

Chrysostom

04-04-2006, 08:43 PM

A simple less invasive solution would be to give named mobs "control-wipes" similar to a "mem-wipe". Not too big a deal in a group situation but would completely prevent soloing.<div></div>

jun

04-04-2006, 09:54 PM

<div></div><p>"<font color="#ffff00">As far as increased resistance someone mentioned, that would be a tough pill to swallow. Illusionists only have mental lines of spells. Unlike a wizard, for instance, if the mob is cold immune they switch to heat. Same with warlocks and disease/poison. Not to say it is not a pain, I am sure, but they can keep doing a little something. If a mob in mental resistant, then illusionist are just out of luck. We cannot even contribute damage at that point. Just keep casting Abolish Hope and hope for it to land for a little resist lowering."</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffffcc">That's the point. We wouldn't be able to 'solo' mobs easily with those types of high resists. It would take a joint effort in order to lower those resists enough for us to land a mez/stun/stifle. Honestly, if it weren't for ALL our core abilities being disabled, I wouldn't even waste my time doing DPS on my Illusionist. That isn't what we were made for. Sure, we can kill things to defend ourselves. But it takes time because our skills are for control rather than DPS.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc">By your definition, yes, I am a purest. I wouldn't trade my core abilities for DPS under any circumstances. I want to be able to use them on just about ANY mob in the game. I refuse to believe we should surrender our abilities when warriors still taunt, wizzis still nuke, healers still heal, and so on. Fact of the matter is, every class is still able to perform the greater majority of their class abilities during raids... except for Illusionists.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc">Again, I don't feel a compromise will be met supplanting our 'traditional' abilities with more DPS. It is completely out of context when you think about it. Illusionists control... I want that control back to some degree or another so that I can contribute to the fight... not just use a couple of spells to augment someone else's contribution to the fight. The way I see it, our contribution has always been one of crowd control. Buffing/debuffing and generally augmenting others is a 'secondary' set of attributes to our skillset and purpose.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffffcc">Kailen</font></p>

Zebsen

04-04-2006, 10:27 PM

<div>I don't know what is in store for our class, but I don't think it's a change to stun resist rate.</div><div> </div><div>When it comes down to it, stun is just an amazingly powerful tool if allowed to land. That's complete mob incapacitation for XX seconds/YY seconds. You can talk about giving a timer to keep more than one class from consecutively stunning it, or you can talk about making the resist rate higher. I don't think either of these are going to happen. </div><div> </div><div>Stun makes the chanter classes a very powerful group (not raid) class against content that allows it. I've taken down some mobs that I can't imagine a viable strategy without 2 stunners in the group. What I envision the developers doing is removing enchanter stun completely and replacing it with variations of stifle. For example, maybe there are 4 types of stifle, one that stifles CAs, one that stifles heals, one that stifles casting damage and one that stifles scout type CAs. Stifles will probably not stack and coercers/illusionists are each better at certain types with durations. Maybe reflections for various specific types of spells (healing spells cast by the mob heal your group instead). This is what I'm personally envisioning - decreasing mob abilities with some choices/variation for the chanter without completely incapacitating mobs. If you read Moor's post eons ago about the removal of our abilities on Epics, he eludes to the overpowering nature of stun on Epics. A lot of people are holding out hope that stun will be brought back for Epics. I really don't think this is going to happen - period.</div><div> </div><div>Seeing heroic immune mobs appearing now and the eerie silence by developers is feeding the fire at this point. They don't want to say anything because they feel we will hold them to whatever they say. There comes a point though when continued silence is more frustrating than unintentionally misleading us, and I'm at that point personally. I'm a 68 illusionist and have officially been passed up for HoF groups due to my class being ineffective on mobs there.</div><div> </div><div>These are just my thoughts. People complain about our uselessness, and I understand situations where we are being completely passed up for groups/raids. These issues are real. Our DPS is respectable but we really become juggernauts when our core abilities work. In situations where we don't, well...</div><div> </div><div>Level 68 illusionist still looking for a HoF group</div><div>Zebsen</div><div>Nek</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

Queue

04-04-2006, 11:56 PM

<div></div><div><font color="#ffffcc">That's the point. We wouldn't be able to 'solo' mobs easily with those types of high resists. It would take a joint effort in order to lower those resists enough for us to land a mez/stun/stifle. Honestly, if it weren't for ALL our core abilities being disabled, I wouldn't even waste my time doing DPS on my Illusionist. That isn't what we were made for. Sure, we can kill things to defend ourselves. But it takes time because our skills are for control rather than DPS.</font></div><div><font color="#ffffcc"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">But we would not be able to do _anything_ without the proper classes for debuffing in that scenario. At least now we can DPS in those instances. We are, after all, a mage. There are already mobs out there with high mental and that is like the bane of my existence. I hate doing the Vault just because of the end mob. I would hate to see a further general increase in mobs mentally resistant and ruin all of our spells lines rather than just the stun/stifle ones.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">As far as wasting your time doing DPS, I do not understand that at all. I was in a two group raid just last night kicking around in AoA killing those insane hit point epics. The groups were one tank, four healers, one paladin, two assassin, one brigand, one warlock, one monk, and myself. Just about every parse copied in it was one of the assassins first and then me second. Every so often the warlock would top me or the other assassin, but I mostly stayed at number two locked at about 700dps. And that was casting Devitalizing Gazes (an incredibly long casting spell) and Mana Flow (all the fizzles throw off your rhythm). And I know that you seem to indicate that it "isn't what we were made for," but the tools are there. Yes, it does not feel very enchanter-ish talking about DPS numbers, but when you look at your group's blue bars and the other group's and realize the impact you do make with your 'enchanter' skills, then it changes things with me.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">How about a line, that is not a stun, but drastically decreases the next hit or two from the mob? I mean, that is how I use my stuns anyway, mostly: to toss out if a flurry of high numbers hit and the healer(s) struggles a bit. Why not a spell that thirds of halves damage and has the same reuse as our stuns? Heck, give them the same duration too or just for X number of hits. Sort of an ultra-debuff for a few seconds. Something like that could not be used for soloing, but might help us feel more 'enchanter-ish.' </font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">I don't know. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I just like trying to think of stuff, I guess.</font></div><p>Message Edited by Queue on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:02 PM</span></p>

jun

04-05-2006, 03:28 AM

<div></div><p>Hrm... perhaps you misunderstood my 'wasting my time dps'n'. It wasn't a complaint about Illusionist dps capabilities, nor a cry for bigger bang spells. I simply meant, if my core skills were available, I would spend more time using those to greater effect the raid and leave the dps'n to those of the mage class more suited to that end. Nothing more.</p><p>As far as the higher resist mobs... well, I was referring more towards zones that shouldn't be solo'd, named heroics, and epic raids. Who really cares if we can stun/stifle/mez the lower caliber mobs considering just about every class mows them down 10x faster than we can with our dps. I'm not certain about the overall effects of raising the resists of mobs either... I just know it worked to a greater extent in EQ1 where debuffs were pretty critical to winning a fight. If the debuffs were in, most of the casters on the raid could land... if they weren't, most attempted so often they were 'summoned' and dispatched.</p><p>Truth be told, I enjoyed the raiding in EQ1 much more than in EQ2. The only aspect of EQ2 raiding that really appealed to me was when it was quest specific updates. If you were at the point in the quest... you got the update.</p><p> </p><p>Kailen</p>

Barobra

04-05-2006, 06:14 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>junzu wrote:<div></div><p>Hrm... perhaps you misunderstood my 'wasting my time dps'n'. It wasn't a complaint about Illusionist dps capabilities, nor a cry for bigger bang spells. I simply meant, if my core skills were available, I would spend more time using those to greater effect the raid and leave the dps'n to those of the mage class more suited to that end. Nothing more.</p><p>As far as the higher resist mobs... well, I was referring more towards zones that shouldn't be solo'd, named heroics, and epic raids. Who really cares if we can stun/stifle/mez the lower caliber mobs considering just about every class mows them down 10x faster than we can with our dps. I'm not certain about the overall effects of raising the resists of mobs either... I just know it worked to a greater extent in EQ1 where debuffs were pretty critical to winning a fight. If the debuffs were in, most of the casters on the raid could land... if they weren't, most attempted so often they were 'summoned' and dispatched.</p><p>Truth be told, I enjoyed the raiding in EQ1 much more than in EQ2. The only aspect of EQ2 raiding that really appealed to me was when it was quest specific updates. If you were at the point in the quest... you got the update.</p><p> </p><p>Kailen</p><hr></blockquote>How about the fact that you don't have to have 100 people in a raid? :smileyhappy:

jun

04-05-2006, 09:23 PM

<div>"How about the fact that you don't have to have 100 people in a raid?"</div><div> </div><div>Lol... naw... that just meant there were more gnomes and dwarfs to throw between me and the raid mob. Actually I liked the 72 player raids. When they scaled them back to 54, our guild went through a terrible trition phase and it broke up a lot of long standing friendships. No one wanted to sit on the 'bench' during our core raid hours. In most cases, it really couldn't be helped due to time zones of the players. Fact of the matter was, once again SOE couldn't match player abilities .vs raid encounters so they simply cut back on the number of players allowed to fight the raid mob/zone.</div><div> </div><div>It wasn't anything new to us to discover we could kill them with far less than 72 folks. Hell, if anything, PoEb proved that to us. Course that trial really wasn't well liked by chanters :p</div><div> </div><div>Kailen</div>

Zebsen

04-14-2006, 12:43 AM

<DIV> <DIV>Barobrain wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have looked at HOF from a solo point of view along with nest. In nest they have stopped it very well simply by putting see invis mobs everywhere and adding a guy with 30 adds in the way. I MIGHT be able to do nest but it would be soooo time consuming its not even worth it. HOF is the same...there is see invis mobs everywhere and killing everything in the way would just take too long. <U>There is no need to make them immune to mez</U>. Just adding see invis mobs is the answer to me. Now maybe a necro that has FD might be able to squirm there way past and FD but I seriously doubt it. You have to kill everything with see invis. Which adds allottttt of time for a solo person to try.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, now that I've done HoF a few times, I think I see the twisted logic as to why mobs are mez immune in HoF. There is an interesting way to gain some great loot (or so I hear) by not dying and not killing any of the named mobs in the zone. After hearing this, I started to see a reason that mez doesn't work on the named in here. I'm at a loss for the lack of effectiveness on various other places, but mezzing the named here till you could get safely past them seems like an overly simplistic way to trivialize this zone. Granted, you can still root them, and I can't figure out why they would also remove the ability to stifle them. While the immunity of these mobs to our primary abilities makes us much less viable in groups, I could argue that we would be highly sought after if our abilities would land on these mobs. I think we're all in agreement that the developers have decided that enchanters would not be a requirement for any content in the game so... there may be some reason to removing stun/mez effects. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My thoughts,</DIV> <DIV>Zebsen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

zit

04-14-2006, 11:06 AM

<P><SPAN>Mez immunities have nothing to do with making the zone impossible for certain classes to do quests cheap. You can skip the nameds without mez no problem. Also if mez would be required, to put mez immunities on the nameds wouldnt keep ppl from passing them by using FD. This acutally is the prefered way to get deep into dungeons fast.</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The reason for those immunities is more trivial : a Dev wanted to make the zone and T7 named fights harder. and one very simple way how to achieve this was to make them immune to stun and stifle. He could have made the mitigation debuff uncureable, or could have made the mobs immune to debuffs and the result would have been similar: harder fights. For some reason he decided to make them immune to stun and stifle. I bet 100pp that no thought has been wasted on illusionists, weather this keeps them from soloing or makes them more or less useless. This wasn’t the purpose, its just a side effect.</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P>

Barobra

04-14-2006, 05:17 PM

<DIV>I guarantee they added see invis to prevent solo. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the mez immunity that is another thing. I think you are probably right they just wanted to make the zone harder.</DIV>

dest

04-14-2006, 09:40 PM

The see invisi mobs are also a major deterrant for the 10 min instance runs, with a group. Many classes have stealth/invisi, and the availability of invisi totems - several classes are able to solo the named mobs - so i do not see this as an illusionist (enchanter) issue - yea we're still not that special.

Barobra

04-14-2006, 09:42 PM

Well the main problem for most classes is they need room. So even if you can get past all the mobs with invis you still have all the adds walking around. We on the other hand can be RIGHT on top of the mob and still take him out.

pinkchicky

04-15-2006, 04:50 PM

try pvp with one even worse imo

110euph

04-15-2006, 11:02 PM

<DIV>The enchanter class is too powerful. That's all there is to it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back in EQ1 the paladins were all whining that their Lay Hands ability was not a complete heal. The argument that SoE (Verant, at that time) put out was that if you wanted to kill any dragon with Comp Heal lay hands, all you needed was to bring 50 level 1 paladins to a dragon raid to heal the MT. So Lay Hands was weaker than the players wanted, but for a good reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE's logic behind the immunities of epic mobs is that the Enchanter class is far too powerful. The ability to both increase in combat regen of power while keeping MOB dps at Zero means that with patience you could pull as many mobs as the chanter could keep mezzed at once and just rest when you needed to, even mid fight. Also, a group of 6 chanters literally could chain stun a mob (my 46 chanter can keep a mob stunned for 13 seconds out of every 45) and still deal damage to it. 6 chanters could perma-stun mobs and leave the damage dealing to their pets. This is something that SoE is also afraid of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The enchanter class is too powerful, and SoE realized it. So they did something about it. They made the uber ultra mobs immune to stun and mez. I can understand that. It was the wrong thing to do, but I can understand it. Otherwise there would be no reason for anyone to play any other class at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now here's how you fix the Enchanter class:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bring back Slow. In EQ1, the Enchanters could slow a mob and haste their party members. This increased the DPS put out by the party and decreased the DPS put out by the mobs. When I left EQ1, Enchanters were in every groups most wanted list. If you couldnt' get a chanter, you might be able to suffice with a Shammy, or a Beastlord if you absolutely had to. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My illusionist is only 46... do we even GET slows anymore? I never hear anyone mention it... my main is a 64 ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh... one more thing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Illusionist in our raids parses his DPS at just a bit under our main wizard or main Conj. The illusionist is 68... wizzy and conj are 70.</DIV>

Kurai_Mitsukai

04-16-2006, 03:11 PM

<DIV>I didn't bother reading all the posts to see if this has been pointed out or not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionists can hold their own very well, depending how you look at it. I started my illusionist when they finally released frogloks, was 50 for awhile before DoF and am 70 now, so I been through almost everything the illusionist has had to deal with. imo we are a way better class then we were before DoF. I have raided almost everything the game has to offer, and I agree that no stun and stifle really puts a damper on things, but there are obvious reasons for it. You can trivialize almost anything with timed stuns or stifles, or even mezes for that matter. We can't use our class defining skills during a raid, but we can still do dps. 600dps average on epics is good for a t3(?) dps class, can get about 2.7k with prismatic chaos, every 15sec. Considering all the things we can do, outside of an epic target, it doesn't surprise me that they force us to be controlled. I have soloed almost every single series of quest in the game, including almost all of both Peacock and Claymore series. Something other classes just can't do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for KoS immune mobs, it's not as if everything is immune to us. I think the only things I have noticed that are really immune to us are, dragons/drakotas (which doesn't surprise me, EQ 1, giants were immune to mez), the Skurize guys in HoF, and healer mobs which use Sanctuary (have noticed these in several places). I admit that reduced stuns or reduced stifles would be ideal for epic targets, but we can still do dps if we need to and are quite good at doing things solo. But the instant they give us reduced stuns or stifles, they have to do it for all stuns or stifles, cause everything has to be fair and balanced, which is bs. </DIV>

Manyak

04-16-2006, 03:34 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kurai_Mitsukai wrote:<BR> <DIV>600dps average on epics is good for a t3(?) dps class<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i dunno about u or any1 else, but im always around 1k dps on single targets at raids, and ive seen it get to about 1.4k when things just worked out right. if ur only getting 600 at a raid, thats pretty low.</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>04-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 AM</span>

trenor

04-16-2006, 06:55 PM

<P>T6 I was most definately and easily around 1k dps. T7 I cant figure out what the difference is but breaking 500 seems to be a challenge. This is not a phenomenon only to me every raid enchanter on our server is seeing this. </P> <P> </P> <P>Fiz</P> <P> </P> <P>Also in regards to scaling and aa now it appears crusaders and brawlers are outdamaging us reguarly. Maybe a bit of a tweek is necessary in the dps. We are still mages.</P>

Manyak

04-17-2006, 06:44 AM

<DIV>u need perpetuality. then have a wizzie use frostbound and a troub use maestro. watch ur damage fly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

trenor

04-17-2006, 08:38 AM

Yep, put that very same grp together today. Every fight was parsed, breaking 650 dps not happening even with all the procs. Facti si the dps we did last lvl did not scale apprprately this lvl. I tested it myself tonight to see if I was doing something wrong and even had the other illusionist switch with me not a single difference. On a single target raid mob.

Manyak

04-17-2006, 11:24 AM

<DIV>wierd. i mean like i said, i was doing pretty good dps. i seen it go higher than 1.4k a few times. i dunno what it is i guess :/</DIV>

zit

04-17-2006, 01:08 PM

<P>ask the troub to cast jester's cap on you.</P> <P>all our faster casting AAs are not really that much use as we only have a very limited number or dmg spells and need to wait them refresh anyways. jester's cap is solving this problem. illu profit from that buff more than any other mage and thats why we can skyrocket in dps. a wiz whoes refresh on one spell isnt up simply will cast a different one. an illu whoes spell arent up has to wait it refresh and cannot do anything as there isnt another one available. 40-60% faster recast from jester's cap is plain crazy. why cannot we get something like that for our 65 spell? WTT Phase !</P><p>Message Edited by zitha on <span class=date_text>04-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:14 AM</span>

trenor

04-17-2006, 04:11 PM

<DIV>I am already always waiting to cast a spell. I have perpetuality and use chronmotion whenever its up i always have the temporary master int buff increases int by 168 etc. On big grps of yard trash we can do ok. On single target we are garbage. I have mostly t7 legendary and a couple a pieces a fabled. And have about 8 or so masters so far for t7.</DIV>

mikemcmodmi

04-19-2006, 11:50 AM

Don't illusionists get to decrease the pierce, crush and slash of the mob? By a lot? Like 40 right? This should make the mob miss more often, so has the same effect as a slow except there's no cap on how much you can decrease the attack of a mob by. Anyone know what this equates to in a % time of a mob hitting?

Pins

04-19-2006, 02:35 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> Don't illusionists get to decrease the pierce, crush and slash of the mob? By a lot? Like 40 right? This should make the mob miss more often, so has the same effect as a slow except there's no cap on how much you can decrease the attack of a mob by. Anyone know what this equates to in a % time of a mob hitting?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Very little compared to pre-LU13.</P> <P>A lv74 has "370/370" plus a bonus vs lower levels. Want to see the difference betweem having 40 less melee skills? Get a friend to duel you, have him attack a mob 4 levels below him, find out hir rate. Make sure no melee skill buffs are up as well, then put the debuff on him. You'll see him miss only a few more times out of ~500, not a very big increase <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

MrDiz

04-19-2006, 04:51 PM

If you are useless when playing your illusionist, play a different character. I mean what level were you when you realised CC was not really an efficient tactic for 99% of encounters in eq2? 15? 20?Or was it when you started raiding? And like 90% OF THE OTHER CLASSES suddenly realised you had little to do other than mash the same 10 hotkeys over and over again?Illusionsists are a great class whether grouping, raiding or soloing. In fact the only thing missing from illusionists are useful illusions.... and im not holding my breath for them.

Pins

04-19-2006, 05:06 PM

<blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:If you are useless when playing your illusionist, play a different character. I mean what level were you when you realised CC was not really an efficient tactic for 99% of encounters in eq2? 15? 20?Or was it when you started raiding? And like 90% OF THE OTHER CLASSES suddenly realised you had little to do other than mash the same 10 hotkeys over and over again?Illusionsists are a great class whether grouping, raiding or soloing. In fact the only thing missing from illusionists are useful illusions.... and im not holding my breath for them.<hr></blockquote>Actually, I realized CC was not really an efficient tactic for 99% of the encounters back in my high 20s, low 30s, like many other of the people who played enchanters back then. Think it was January or February of 2005 when the posts actually started to "flood" in and start the complaining of uselessness of CC from an enchanter, when a sorc's unbreakable root(back then, remember), was FAR better CC than what we had.

MrDiz

04-19-2006, 05:34 PM

So you played a class you were personally unable to make useful for 14 more months? Just tell me you at least had fun whilst being useless.

zit

04-20-2006, 12:51 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrDizzi wrote:<BR>So you played a class you were personally unable to make useful for 14 more months? Just tell me you at least had fun whilst being useless.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>well i think many of us have simply been waiting for the promised "getting looked into". thats why we did stick with the class.</P> <P>waiting for LU7... waiting for LU 13.... waiting for ... err, what did they say when they were gonna look into our raiding abilities?</P> <P> </P>

Impetus

04-20-2006, 01:18 AM

<blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<BR><P><BR>well i think many of us have simply been waiting for the promised "getting looked into". thats why we did stick with the class.</P><P>waiting for LU7... waiting for LU 13.... waiting for ... err, what did they say when they were gonna look into our raiding abilities?</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>omigosh they're looking into it, sheesh! When you pressure them it just pushes them away! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sadaro

04-20-2006, 08:55 AM

Rumor has it they're taking the 'stun-immunity' timers mechanic from PvP and applying it to epic mobs. This means mez/stifle/stun could land on that mob, possibly for the full duration (or a reduced duration, like scout's cheap shot). Once a mez/stifle/stun has landed, the mob is immune to that effect (or maybe all effects) for an equivalent amount of time. In other words, an epic mob will spend at most 50% of it's time mezzed/stunned/stifled.I could see this as a viable solution for many epic mobs and even some heroic mobs.(1) It introduces tactics. Do you stagger short stuns from multiple classes, preventing the mob from using any long-casting abilities? Or do you keep half of the epic mobs neutralized, minimizing the damage spikes and making life easier for healers? Multiple tactical options are a good thing. Bringing extra healers is the default tactic, but I'd like other options.(2) It allows a few CC classes to substitute for a few healers on raids. I don't see why SOE wants to 'avoid encounters that are easy/trivial if you bring ## of class XX'. This just means groups load up on extra healers. How many times have you seen 'Looking for second healer for <tough zone>'? How many healers do you see in a typical raid? But an encounter that becomes easier with mez is wrong? I'd like to see <i><b>more </b></i>encounters where tactics/class selection make a difference. Of course, these encounters should still be possible without the 'magic ability' -- just harder to handle.(3) It allows for 'emergency' stunning (ie., dealing with adds, regaining mez/root control) without making it too easy to solo. I still remember the first time an HoF drake came my way... my thought process went like this: (1) Hmm, we're about to get an add, maybe I should mez it. (2) Blast, that didn't work. Maybe someone hit it. Time for (3) Plan B: short stun, long stun, mez again. (4) Wait a minute, stuns aren't working. How many hit points do I have left? (5) Better cast Illusory Allies to buy me 15 seconds (6) I hope IA gets off (7) Nope. Let me check my logs... bloody immune mobs. I think they mentioned this on the boards!I know wizards [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed about heat/ice resistant mobs. Other classes have problems with other mobs (poison/disease/slashing/crushing/piercing). I don't mind the *occasional* heroic mob that's highly resistant to mental or immune to some combination of mez/stun/stifle/root/slow. It keeps things interesting. A few notes: (1) DON'T MAKE MORE THAN 5%-10% OF THE DUNGEON IMMUNE. A few key mobs with immunities minimizes soloing. (2) Spread the love (and immunities) to other classes.Sadari<div></div>

Pins

04-20-2006, 09:23 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sadaro wrote:<BR>Rumor has it they're taking the 'stun-immunity' timers mechanic from PvP and applying it to epic mobs. This means mez/stifle/stun could land on that mob, possibly for the full duration (or a reduced duration, like scout's cheap shot). Once a mez/stifle/stun has landed, the mob is immune to that effect (or maybe all effects) for an equivalent amount of time. In other words, an epic mob will spend at most 50% of it's time mezzed/stunned/stifled.<BR><BR>I could see this as a viable solution for many epic mobs and even some heroic mobs.<BR><BR>(1) It introduces tactics. Do you stagger short stuns from multiple classes, preventing the mob from using any long-casting abilities? Or do you keep half of the epic mobs neutralized, minimizing the damage spikes and making life easier for healers? Multiple tactical options are a good thing. Bringing extra healers is the default tactic, but I'd like other options.<BR><BR>(2) It allows a few CC classes to substitute for a few healers on raids. I don't see why SOE wants to 'avoid encounters that are easy/trivial if you bring ## of class XX'. This just means groups load up on extra healers. How many times have you seen 'Looking for second healer for <tough zone>'? How many healers do you see in a typical raid? But an encounter that becomes easier with mez is wrong? I'd like to see <I><B>more </B></I>encounters where tactics/class selection make a difference. Of course, these encounters should still be possible without the 'magic ability' -- just harder to handle.<BR><BR>(3) It allows for 'emergency' stunning (ie., dealing with adds, regaining mez/root control) without making it too easy to solo. I still remember the first time an HoF drake came my way... my thought process went like this: (1) Hmm, we're about to get an add, maybe I should mez it. (2) Blast, that didn't work. Maybe someone hit it. Time for (3) Plan B: short stun, long stun, mez again. (4) Wait a minute, stuns aren't working. How many hit points do I have left? (5) Better cast Illusory Allies to buy me 15 seconds (6) I hope IA gets off (7) Nope. Let me check my logs... bloody immune mobs. I think they mentioned this on the boards!<BR><BR><BR>I know wizards [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed about heat/ice resistant mobs. Other classes have problems with other mobs (poison/disease/slashing/crushing/piercing). I don't mind the *occasional* heroic mob that's highly resistant to mental or immune to some combination of mez/stun/stifle/root/slow. It keeps things interesting. A few notes: (1) DON'T MAKE MORE THAN 5%-10% OF THE DUNGEON IMMUNE. A few key mobs with immunities minimizes soloing. (2) Spread the love (and immunities) to other classes.<BR><BR>Sadari<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The problem with the whole immunity timer on epics, is that did you know, every class has stuns, and they use their stuns in their damage lineup already because of how much damage they do? Same with their stifles. Basically, things wouldn't change for us, we'd still be in the same situation as before, because every other class's stuns/stifles/etc. would do the same as us, thus why bring an enchanter for CC, when all these other classes combine into a better form of CC?

zit

04-20-2006, 11:40 AM

<P>^^ dont expect SOE to realize this dilemma.</P> <P>after the changes they prolly will just shake their head and wonder why illus keep complaining now that their spells are able to hit epics.</P> <P>what i do not understand is why they want introduce immunities at all. why change the whole concept of CC when it would have been enough to simply fix our spells. i think its still in the spell description that they have reduced effectiveness against epics. seems would have been easy enough to actually make the spells do what they are supposed to do. reduced effectiveness of (coercer) stifle for example did work well up to T5 mobs. scouts have a reduced stun on heroics, that is working without problems too. what is so hard about fixing our spells that it takes them more than 2 expansions time and they sooner change the system in general? why do they always try to fix things with a heavy hammer only? seems so ineffective and stupid.</P>

MrDiz

04-20-2006, 11:52 AM

<blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>MrDizzi wrote:<BR>So you played a class you were personally unable to make useful for 14 more months? Just tell me you at least had fun whilst being useless.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>well i think many of us have simply been waiting for the promised "getting looked into". thats why we did stick with the class.</P><P>waiting for LU7... waiting for LU 13.... waiting for ... err, what did they say when they were gonna look into our raiding abilities?</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>They are looking into EVERYTHING. Templars are totally broken and completely awful according to templars on the forums. Sony are looking into it. Guardians still suck. Sony are looking into it. Rangers are unplayable. Sony are looking into it. Assassins are the worst class out there. Sony are looking into it. Wizards are totally useless compared to other classes. Sony are looking into it.See a pattern here?

Chei

04-20-2006, 07:23 PM

<P>Being relatively new to the class (nearly at 30) Imay not be wildly qualified, but this is probably the most powerful class I have played, especially when played with the pet.</P> <P>I first tried a Ranger and took it up to 44 before I got bored and didn't like it .... funny enough I stopped at that point.</P> <P>Then a Berserker which was lots of fun and is still my main at lvl 57, but wanting to try other types tried more, so</P> <P>Started a Warden (now 2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> which was fun too and seems to solo better than my Berserker at that level (which is weird, but there you go).</P> <P>Finally the Illusionist (nearly 30) who solos the best, especially with casting the newly acquired prismatic storm (or whatever it is) on the pet. I can easily solo ^^^s 5 levels below me with good spells (most mainlines are adept IIIs) but pretty mediocre accessories (armor, jewelry). They die reasonably fast too, and quite often get killed without wiping the pet and calling for a root/mezz/stun and pet recast. Haven't tried this with my warden yet, but the first 2 certaily have trouble with ^^^s of any color other than grey (and the Zerker is in full cobalt with some very expensive trinkets).</P> <P>From some points of view this class could certainly be called overpowered, but however you look at it the class is fun! Sure maybe its supposed to be an 'illusionist', we should probably have spells that send things in the wrong direction, make them attack their allies, etc ... like you would expect of an illusionist, but we don't. It is still a powerful class none the less.</P> <P>As the last poster pointed out just about EVERY class whines and moans that they are underpowered and need more of X or Y. I would certainly have said the same of my Zerker, but it is still fun to play especially against groups it can handle with all the AoE damage.</P> <P>I guess hte bottom line is, if you don't like it why play it? Or are we just whining because we can? Sure sounds like it.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

auk

04-20-2006, 09:49 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Cheith wrote:<div></div><p>I guess hte bottom line is, if you don't like it why play it? Or are we just whining because we can? Sure sounds like it.</p> <hr></blockquote>Its all about the epics.and the stun/stiflemez-immune heroic mobs in T7.Not many people complain about solo, but there are some gripes about solo DPS, but not many -- it does get worse at higher levels.Not many people complain about grouping vs. heroics either, save for the handful of stun/stifle/mez-immune heroic mobs in T7.Generally though, an enchanter in a raid is a weak warlock with mana regen and not much else. Even worse vs. mental immune epic targets. Thats my favorite part of a raid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Here's something you should keep in mind: if it weren't for how much we all love our class, we WOULD stop complaining and roll a new class. Many have done so... but I see so many names on these forums that I've seen since the beginning, still fighting the good fight for the Illusionist. Thats love.</div>

Impetus

04-20-2006, 10:54 PM

<blockquote><hr>Cheith wrote:<div></div> Finally the Illusionist (nearly 30) who solos the best, especially with casting the newly acquired prismatic storm (or whatever it is) on the pet. I can easily solo ^^^s 5 levels below me with good spells (most mainlines are adept IIIs) but pretty mediocre accessories (armor, jewelry). They die reasonably fast too, and quite often get killed without wiping the pet and calling for a root/mezz/stun and pet recast. Haven't tried this with my warden yet, but the first 2 certaily have trouble with ^^^s of any color other than grey (and the Zerker is in full cobalt with some very expensive trinkets). <p>From some points of view this class could certainly be called overpowered, but however you look at it the class is fun! Sure maybe its supposed to be an 'illusionist', we should probably have spells that send things in the wrong direction, make them attack their allies, etc ... like you would expect of an illusionist, but we don't. It is still a powerful class none the less.</p> <p>As the last poster pointed out just about EVERY class whines and moans that they are underpowered and need more of X or Y. I would certainly have said the same of my Zerker, but it is still fun to play especially against groups it can handle with all the AoE damage.</p> <p>I guess hte bottom line is, if you don't like it why play it? Or are we just whining because we can? Sure sounds like it.</p> <hr></blockquote>Well sure, you have a twinked lower-level illusionist, going against stuff you've already fought before, in a game that you've already been playing for a while. Obviously things are going to be easy for you. And since LU13, we *are* a good solo class, most everyone agrees with that. I've got a semi-twinked level 37 shadowknight that I started a month or two ago. I can solo blue heroic groups and green named heroics. Does that mean SK's are overpowered? Or does it mean that I've been playing the game for 16 months and low level stuff is pretty easy for me the 6th time through? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The rest of your post was covered by a good post from auk, to which I will just say, agreed.<div></div>

zit

04-21-2006, 02:15 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cheith wrote:<BR> <P>As the last poster pointed out <FONT color=#ccff00>just about EVERY class whines and moans that they are underpowered and need more of X or Y</FONT>. I would certainly have said the same of my Zerker, but it is still fun to play especially against groups it can handle with all the AoE damage.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>we are not whining that we are underpowered.</P> <P>we are complaining cause we are not allowed to use our power !!!</P> <P>and we are simply asking to get at least some substitute for our disabled abilities so that we can feel like an enchanter when fighting those immune mobs and not like a second rate warlock.</P>

Chei

04-21-2006, 03:18 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> auk wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cheith wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I guess hte bottom line is, if you don't like it why play it? Or are we just whining because we can? Sure sounds like it.</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its all about the epics.<BR><BR>and the stun/stiflemez-immune heroic mobs in T7.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well, guess I can't agree or disagree with you on that as I group but typcially don't raid and have not done T7 - not yet parted with the cash.</P> <P> </P>

Pins

04-21-2006, 09:00 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cheith wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> auk wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cheith wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I guess hte bottom line is, if you don't like it why play it? Or are we just whining because we can? Sure sounds like it.</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its all about the epics.<BR><BR>and the stun/stiflemez-immune heroic mobs in T7.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well, guess I can't agree or disagree with you on that as I group but typcially don't raid and have not done T7 - not yet parted with the cash.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>See that's the thing. The majority of our problem is in raid usefulness, which is what everybody here tries to complain about, but most people miss that. It is only in raids, and those rare(although growing) stun/stifle immune heroics that are our issues with the game.

MrDiz

04-21-2006, 11:34 AM

And yet the sole reason for creating my illusionist was because my guild needed one. And one she passed lvl 47 she pretty much became my preferred char on raids even though i had a lvl 60 templar and lvl 60 guardian. My guild didnt want to raid without her.But thats why Im happy I guess. I chose the class for what it could do, not what I felt it should do in my own ideal gaming environment. In fact really Ive only used the CC aspect on enchanters on specific encounters or instances as it really isnt the most efficient way to play eq2 in 99% of the situations raid or otherwise.Choose a class based on what it can do, not what you wan it to do sometime in 5 years if you complain enough. If they change the game mechanics to make CC more of an issue it will be yet another radical overhaul of the combat system. And EQ2 cannot survive another one of those.

zit

04-21-2006, 03:45 PM

<DIV>only bad thing is that some of us actually did start their char back in the days when no one even knew what a class would be able to do at high end, and raids havent been a topic yet for guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>before i created my illu i looked at the spell lists - as far as they existed - and read the class description, even talked to "high level" illusionists (highest on my server has been 32 or 33 - ironically just the level when we were at our peak back then) and based on this i started my chanter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i did chose my class based on what it could do. just to find out that at high end and raiding i suddenly wasnt longer able to do what i chose my class for. i got cheated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its ok when there are also players who created their illusionist in awareness of these restrictions and with the only purpose of helping out their guild and are satisfied with their main role being power regen. its nice to see that they are happy.</DIV> <DIV>but its a bit self-centered if those ppl try to imply that others who arent that happy have picked the class for the "wrong" motivation and if those ppl claim the class is fine as it is, just because they personaly dont mind not being able to use a good part of those abilities which many others picked the class for in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by zitha on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:13 AM</span>

MrDiz

04-21-2006, 05:54 PM

Not saying your wrong for being unhappy. Im saying your'e wrong that WE are useless. You may be useless, but WE are anything but. Im also amazed that you play a class you are unhappy with for so long and dont figure out that you can either quit the game or play another class. The game is trivially easy now so pass you cash onto a new char and fly through the levels and experience the zones you didnt first time round, and then raid with a char you feel you can make useful to your guild.In the end there are 2 choices: You change to fit the game, or the game is changed to fit you. Do you honestly imagine CC becomeing a critical part of raiding? Games like this need some status quo... and frankly we have had little of that with the massive game play changes that have occured. Many of us are hoping for a period of consitency where they focus on adding content rather than randomly inventing a new game each expansion.

Barobra

04-21-2006, 06:00 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrDizzi wrote:<BR>Not saying your wrong for being unhappy. Im saying your'e wrong that WE are useless. You may be useless, but WE are anything but. <BR><BR>Im also amazed that you play a class you are unhappy with for so long and dont figure out that you can either quit the game or play another class. The game is trivially easy now so pass you cash onto a new char and fly through the levels and experience the zones you didnt first time round, and then raid with a char you feel you can make useful to your guild.<BR><BR>In the end there are 2 choices: You change to fit the game, or the game is changed to fit you. Do you honestly imagine CC becomeing a critical part of raiding? Games like this need some status quo... and frankly we have had little of that with the massive game play changes that have occured. Many of us are hoping for a period of consitency where they focus on adding content rather than randomly inventing a new game each expansion.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>I kind of agree but unfortunatley people will always complain. There will always be a problem with there class unless were overpowered. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I disagree on CC a bit, I am not asking for it to be ABSOLUTLEY neccesary. Is it really that hard to invent a couple encounters that will have adds that can be mezzed? Make it so yes you can do it but, it would be way easier with mez.</DIV>

auk

04-22-2006, 04:41 AM

Well diz, I've kind of implied before that I love this class <b>because of</b> its flaws. Love is the given unconditional here, the conditional is happy vs unhappy, and that seems to depend more on outside factors -- like how much coffee I've had that day. Anyhow, I try not to post to complain because I don't want my negative feelings validated.I'm lucky in that my little casual raiding guild is 2-3 grouping DoF raids atm like Gates where mez helps a lot (and I'm the only high level enchanter atm tho there are others coming up). So I have fun, get to do lots and generally be a hero. Or.. feel like one at least.Am I happy? Only when I get to play... but I can't help but feel <b>excluded</b> by places like Halls of Fate. You know, the last-to-be-picked for a team in gym class feeling...<div></div>

Barobra

04-22-2006, 05:49 PM

I still get in HOF groups on a regular basis. Simply for the fact that we do decent DPS and give plenty of power.<div></div>

Lolthinae

04-23-2006, 12:22 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrDizzi wrote:<BR>And yet the sole reason for creating my illusionist was because my guild needed one. And one she passed lvl 47 she pretty much became my preferred char on raids even though i had a lvl 60 templar and lvl 60 guardian. My guild didnt want to raid without her.<BR><BR>But thats why Im happy I guess. <FONT color=#ff9900>I chose the class for what it could do</FONT>, not what I felt it should do in my own ideal gaming environment. In fact really Ive only used the CC aspect on enchanters on specific encounters or instances as it really isnt the most efficient way to play eq2 in 99% of the situations raid or otherwise.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff9900>Choose a class based on what it can do</FONT>, not what you wan it to do sometime in 5 years if you complain enough. If they change the game mechanics to make CC more of an issue it will be yet another radical overhaul of the combat system. And EQ2 cannot survive another one of those.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And what exactly is it that we CAN do in T7 raiding?</P> <P>I am a raid leader, and I will put a coercer/dirge in the MT group (crack and MT hate), a trouby with the mages (crack, group spell proc and hate reduction), a dirge or trouby with the high DPS scouts (crack and hate reduction again). There is not a single group combination where I would provide more, or even equal, benefits to coercers, troubies or dirges.</P> <P>So, what am I missing here? What is it that I CAN do, that I have obviously missed?</P>

Pins

04-23-2006, 12:52 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lolthinae wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrDizzi wrote:<BR>And yet the sole reason for creating my illusionist was because my guild needed one. And one she passed lvl 47 she pretty much became my preferred char on raids even though i had a lvl 60 templar and lvl 60 guardian. My guild didnt want to raid without her.<BR><BR>But thats why Im happy I guess. <FONT color=#ff9900>I chose the class for what it could do</FONT>, not what I felt it should do in my own ideal gaming environment. In fact really Ive only used the CC aspect on enchanters on specific encounters or instances as it really isnt the most efficient way to play eq2 in 99% of the situations raid or otherwise.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff9900>Choose a class based on what it can do</FONT>, not what you wan it to do sometime in 5 years if you complain enough. If they change the game mechanics to make CC more of an issue it will be yet another radical overhaul of the combat system. And EQ2 cannot survive another one of those.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And what exactly is it that we CAN do in T7 raiding?</P> <P>I am a raid leader, and I will put a coercer/dirge in the MT group (crack and MT hate), a trouby with the mages (crack, group spell proc and hate reduction), a dirge or trouby with the high DPS scouts (crack and hate reduction again). There is not a single group combination where I would provide more, or even equal, benefits to coercers, troubies or dirges.</P> <P>So, what am I missing here? What is it that I CAN do, that I have obviously missed?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You AF better, with that M2 choice we got, that nobody else did, DUH.

MrDiz

04-24-2006, 12:11 PM

What can YOU do on raids? No idea. I really dont know you or how well you play. All I can tell you is what I can do on raids.On my swashbuckler: DPS + DebuffOn my templar : Heal, Buff + DebuffIllusionist : DPS, Buff + debuff, Power regen, situational CC.As for being last to be chosen? Thats just you. Not me. In 2 guilds my illusionist has been a first choice char because its useful. Are there classes that can DPS more? Sure. Are there classes that can also regen? Of course. But NO character is indispensible. All of them can be replaced or interchanged. Noone NEEDS a monk on a raid. Is it a broken class?

zit

04-24-2006, 02:10 PM

<DIV>the point still is... we are the only class that gets crippled that bad and one of their core function disabled on epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do swashbuckler get one of their core function disabled? debuffing for example?</DIV> <DIV>do templar get one of their core function disabled? healing for expample?</DIV> <DIV>do troubador get one of their core function disabled? buffing for example?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all those classes could still "do something" on raids, if these core functions would get disabled. and what ever they did would have some "use" and would be better than doing nothing. does this mean it is ok or balanced or justified or fun when they lose out of those abilities?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what would you think the reaction from swashbuckler community would be if their debuffs stopped working on epics and certain heroics?</DIV> <DIV>my guess is there would be a huge uproar. but i am also pretty sure there would be one or two who would step up and say, who cares about debuffs? i can still do something on raids, my dps is still usefull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and at least one troubador would comfort himself that he still can power regen, has a nice bunch of debuffs and can provide some dps. so whats so bad if buffs dont work?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and there would even be a templar who wouldnt be worried if he cannot heal anymore and felt satisfied to buff and debuff and do what ever damage he can do.</DIV>

Barobra

04-24-2006, 05:40 PM

<DIV>I agree with alot of people. But to play devils advocate (again).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zitha wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do swashbuckler get one of their core function disabled? debuffing for example?</DIV> <DIV>do templar get one of their core function disabled? healing for expample?</DIV> <DIV>do troubador get one of their core function disabled? buffing for example?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>None of these skills make an epic a pansy to work with. Thats the whole issue. This topic has been beaten to death. Yes we know illusionist needs some loving when it comes to raids. I think most of us understand why you can't have stun and mez work on a named epic mob. The devs know about it. So what do we do? Just keep posting the same thing over and over I guess? :smileyhappy:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Barobrain on <SPAN class=date_text>04-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:53 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:53 AM</span>

Aranieq

04-24-2006, 06:04 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrDizzi wrote:<BR>What can YOU do on raids? No idea. I really dont know you or how well you play. All I can tell you is what I can do on raids.<BR><BR>On my swashbuckler: DPS + Debuff<BR>On my templar : Heal, Buff + Debuff<BR>Illusionist : DPS, Buff + debuff, Power regen, situational CC.<BR><BR>As for being last to be chosen? Thats just you. Not me. In 2 guilds my illusionist has been a first choice char because its useful. Are there classes that can DPS more? Sure. Are there classes that can also regen? Of course. But NO character is indispensible. All of them can be replaced or interchanged. Noone NEEDS a monk on a raid. Is it a broken class?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>She doesn't apear to be refering to skills it seems to me she is refering strictly to the class make up...</P> <P>what make an illusionist more important in a gorup than the other clases she listed.. she didnt ask about debuff she didnt ask about what she could do better as a player .. to me I heard what does an illusionist have over any other class for a group makeup... I'm thinking that refelction spell you have but I really know very little about your buffs.. your group buff is wis/int where as ours is agi/int but I don't know what class that needs wis as a major factor that isn't (or should be) maxed at the lvl 70 raid level. </P>

Manyak

04-24-2006, 06:48 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrDizzi wrote:<BR>What can YOU do on raids? No idea. I really dont know you or how well you play. All I can tell you is what I can do on raids.<BR><BR>On my swashbuckler: DPS + Debuff<BR>On my templar : Heal, Buff + Debuff<BR>Illusionist : DPS, Buff + debuff, Power regen, situational CC.<BR><BR>As for being last to be chosen? Thats just you. Not me. In 2 guilds my illusionist has been a first choice char because its useful. Are there classes that can DPS more? Sure. Are there classes that can also regen? Of course. But NO character is indispensible. All of them can be replaced or interchanged. Noone NEEDS a monk on a raid. Is it a broken class?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is changing with the nxt lu and the proc nerf. Illus are gonna be brought down to just Buff, debuff, and Power regen. Dps is going to be minimal, and in T7 CC is 100% useless in raids. Basically, the only reason we will be going on raids instead of a second (or third) guardian is cuz of mana regen, nothing else.

Teare

04-24-2006, 09:42 PM

<P>Guys - I have surfed these boards since day one but rarely post. This deserves it. Two points:</P> <P>One:</P> <P>Mr Dizzi spends most of his/her day trolling around and screaming about how great he is at his class (Swash, temp, guard, Illuisonist) and all of you are stupid to complain, you obviously just don't know shiat about shiat and can't play your class. If you don't believe me look at the other class boards. You only feed his twisted lack of self esteem by responding to him. He will stick to his line of "I am better than all of you" just to get you wound up.</P> <P>Two:</P> <P>I want to talk about the OP message. We have been griping and hoping for well over a year about our lack of effectiveness and we were told that it would be fixxed. By "fixxed" I would assume that we would become more effective in raids. I know that I am no more effective on a raid then I was 14 months+ ago. Can ANYONE say we are? Let's put that in the background for a bit because like a few of us have said, we have beaten that dead horse for a long time. Now SOE has rolled in and brought the same BS from raiding to group heroic mobs. Enough is enough. I like to see the high end content and I love to raid because I want to see that content but I don't enjoy it. The real joy of playing the Illusionist class came in groups so I dealt with the decreased raid abilities and had fun grouping. Now the true high end group zones I am worthless again. I know that is going to draw a lot of fire about calling the class worthless but facts are facts. If they make a mob immune to slash - the melees switch weapons to crush, no problem. When you make a mob immune to cold, Wizzies go heat etc etc. BUT when you make the mob completely immune to mental damage, I am shut down (Vaults). When a mezzed mob ( I know it is mezzed because it is showing up on my active spell bar) beats the crap out of me like in HoF, I am shut down. </P> <P>To all the people playing "devil's advocate" on this thread, show me one other class that in standard heroic encounters is totally locked out of a fight like we are on the Vaults boss. Show me one other class that looses 3/4's of it's core abilities on raids or in heroic groups like we do in Halls of Fate. Just show me that we aren't the ONLY class paying this heavy a price and I will shut up. I don't want to be overpowered but I think there is a better way then it is now and we have made all those suggestions to hich the dev's have ignored us and continued on beating us with the nerf hammer. People say that they get lots of invites to guilds etc because big guilds feel like they need one of every class and since there are hardly any high level illusionists in the game, we are sought after. I don't think we will ever get fixxed and the longer Sony drags [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and doesn't do anything, the more of us quit playing and they think that eventually there will be so few, we will just go away. End of problem. Our numbers are already so weak that they really don't pay attention so it will probably be a long time before I post again. It is a waste of my time.</P> <P>Teare</P> <P>70 Illusionist</P> <P>Ghosts of War - Permafrost</P>

Pins

04-24-2006, 09:47 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teare wrote:<BR> <P>Guys - I have surfed these boards since day one but rarely post. This deserves it. Two points:</P> <P>One:</P> <P>Mr Dizzi spends most of his/her day trolling around and screaming about how great he is at his class (Swash, temp, guard, Illuisonist) and all of you are stupid to complain, you obviously just don't know shiat about shiat and can't play your class. If you don't believe me look at the other class boards. You only feed his twisted lack of self esteem by responding to him. He will stick to his line of "I am better than all of you" just to get you wound up.</P> <P>Two:</P> <P>I want to talk about the OP message. We have been griping and hoping for well over a year about our lack of effectiveness and we were told that it would be fixxed. By "fixxed" I would assume that we would become more effective in raids. I know that I am no more effective on a raid then I was 14 months+ ago. Can ANYONE say we are? Let's put that in the background for a bit because like a few of us have said, we have beaten that dead horse for a long time. Now SOE has rolled in and brought the same BS from raiding to group heroic mobs. Enough is enough. I like to see the high end content and I love to raid because I want to see that content but I don't enjoy it. The real joy of playing the Illusionist class came in groups so I dealt with the decreased raid abilities and had fun grouping. Now the true high end group zones I am worthless again. I know that is going to draw a lot of fire about calling the class worthless but facts are facts. If they make a mob immune to slash - the melees switch weapons to crush, no problem. When you make a mob immune to cold, Wizzies go heat etc etc. BUT when you make the mob completely immune to mental damage, I am shut down (Vaults). When a mezzed mob ( I know it is mezzed because it is showing up on my active spell bar) beats the crap out of me like in HoF, I am shut down. </P> <P>To all the people playing "devil's advocate" on this thread, show me one other class that in standard heroic encounters is totally locked out of a fight like we are on the Vaults boss. Show me one other class that looses 3/4's of it's core abilities on raids or in heroic groups like we do in Halls of Fate. Just show me that we aren't the ONLY class paying this heavy a price and I will shut up. I don't want to be overpowered but I think there is a better way then it is now and we have made all those suggestions to hich the dev's have ignored us and continued on beating us with the nerf hammer. People say that they get lots of invites to guilds etc because big guilds feel like they need one of every class and since there are hardly any high level illusionists in the game, we are sought after. I don't think we will ever get fixxed and the longer Sony drags [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and doesn't do anything, the more of us quit playing and they think that eventually there will be so few, we will just go away. End of problem. Our numbers are already so weak that they really don't pay attention so it will probably be a long time before I post again. It is a waste of my time.</P> <P>Teare</P> <P>70 Illusionist</P> <P>Ghosts of War - Permafrost</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We're actually LESS effective on a raid now than we were 14 months ago <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I mean think about it, back before LU13, if there was no enchanter on a raid vs. with an enchanter there was a HUGE difference between the 2 raids. While it was painful to be an enchanter back then, we had HUGE effectiveness. Heck, if you weren't using obvious cheap ways to deal with encounters(Arch Lich and Coercer's stifle), CC was required for some encounters(at least 1 I can remember, but 1 > 0!).<BR></P> <P>I totally agree with you Teare, with both points.</P>

Barobra

04-24-2006, 09:49 PM

<DIV>Gee I wonder what the devils advocate response is directed towards. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing that really irks me is the lack of response from devs. I check for a dev response almost daily when it comes to enchanters in general. I think there is a fear that whatever response they give they will be quoted on and used until the end of time. But can't they throw us something? How about...yes we know there is a need for something on epics...we are working on it. But nothing. All this whinning in the enchanter boards and nothing is said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is a lack of response better then a negative response?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:02 AM</span>

Teare

04-24-2006, 10:45 PM

<P>No offense meant by the "devils advicate" line. You have been thoughtful in your posts and proposed constructive suggestions but there are several on here that seem to only feel better by insulting people that want to see changes made. It was to those that seem to constantly say, "the class is fine, you just don't know how to play it" that the comment was directed to.</P> <P>Teare</P>

MrDiz

04-25-2006, 12:42 PM

The next patch is a bad nerf for illusionists <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> DPS is the core of all mage classes (not mezzing) and this change seriosuly hurts. This is a very badly thought out change and may well make me rethink the raiding potential of my chanter. Problem is when we complain about it noone will listen. Why? You ever heard the story of the girl who called 'fire fire'?Oh and Teare, I complained about the [Removed for Content] guardians got in lu13 loud enough. I have to listen to illusionist talking about how great life is as a raid templar but crap as raid illusionist. i have to hear from templars about how gimped templars are in raids. And now even swashys are whining their behinds off because after next patch we wont be able to go afk and out dps the tier1 dpsers (YES WE CAN!). It doesnt matter which class forum im on its all the same "We suck and every other class rule". Call it trolling if you wish but when I see people tell bare faced untruths about the game Im gonna contradict them. Illusionist (right now) are not useless in raids. After next patch however .... well not useless but ill certainly be rethinking my raid char priorities.