A rant for those that would consider making an illusionist

[jin]

<div>Illusionists have the worst armor, the worst defense, the worst DPS and the worst combat pet in EQ2.  In the name of play balance you would think that there would be some mighty large benefits to offset the negatives.  Let's look.  Illusionists have mez, power drain, haste,  and power regen.  The benefits have rather large downsides:</div><div> </div><div>Mez is largely trivialized by the fact that many other classes have this ability to some degree and mez is more often an irritation to a group than a benefit.  Even in that one in a thousand case where mez can save the group, there is always someone to break it and the group is wiped anyway.  If you complain, you will find that the group has revived and is back in it before you can finish your complaint.</div><div> </div><div>Power drain was made redundent when SOE decreased the Hp of player chars and mobs a while back.  Most mobs are dead before they can be power drained and even if they were power drained, it makes no difference to the final outcome of the fight.  The group will win or lose in spite of power drain being cast or not.</div><div> </div><div>Haste is not a bad thing.  Hardly exclusive.  Hardly offsets the negatives.</div><div> </div><div>Power regen.  Knee slapper.  When SOE made power regen spells combat only, they made the provisioner the king of power regen.  Far more power is regened  out of combat than in combat.  Also there are other classes that have in combat power regen, some better than illusionists.</div><div> </div><div>Any of these so-called plusses can have a hypothetical case made where they become more important than they usually are,  but don't base your choice of class on hypothetical cases.</div><div> </div><div>Anyone that thinks they might enjoy an illusionist would probably like a conjurer or a scout or a necro even more.</div><div> </div><div>BTW, the lvl 65 illusionist spell , Phase, is a finger in the eye of every illusionist in EQ2.</div>

[Catl]

<div></div><p>If you look in the other class forums, there are always elements that think their class is the stepchild of EQ.  The thing that tees me off is that in KoS zones (and some other zones too)  A plate or chain wearing class can solo green^ mobs all day long without a healer and without any health dip.  These same mobs will tear a cloth armor class apart very quickly if he is not careful.  Cloth wearers must fight these greeen mobs, even 1 arrow down, the same as if there were white or yellow cons.</p><p>BTW, the Phase spell is SoE's little joke.   They want to "phase" the illusionist class out I think.</p>

[ximo]

Come on guys, enough already! If we were limited to rolling one character per account I'd understand, if you hate it that much then move on... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Barobra]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>jinna wrote:<div>Illusionists have the worst armor, the worst defense, <strong>the worst DPS</strong> and the worst combat pet in EQ2.  In the name of play balance you would think that there would be some mighty large benefits to offset the negatives.  Let's look.  Illusionists have mez, power drain, haste,  and power regen.  The benefits have rather large downsides:</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>Negative. Im a bit tired of the whines myself. I think the Illusionist class is fine. Just depends on what you want to do in a group/raid. Why do people keep bringing up worst DPS...DPS is horrible? I think most of the real illusionists that browse this board will disagree that DPS is an issue at this point. Sony needs to focus on raids. Other then that...we are fine. And even in a raid I think we need very minor tweaking.</div><div> </div><div>In a group we really do shine.</div>

[auk]

I love my Illusionist anyway.<div></div>

[enc]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Catlea wrote:<div></div><p> The thing that tees me off is that in KoS zones (and some other zones too)  A plate or chain wearing class can solo green^ mobs all day long without a healer and without any health dip.  These same mobs will tear a cloth armor class apart very quickly if he is not careful.  Cloth wearers must fight these greeen mobs, even 1 arrow down, the same as if there were white or yellow cons.</p><hr></blockquote>Is that a joke? I can kill heroic white mobs with no problem. it sucks for xp but is easily doable. I've been soloing heroics in sos since lvl 61

[Eu]

<div></div>I agree with Enc, we can solo some rather difficult mobs given you know how to play your class. It isn't efficient XP versus a group but it can be done. I solo yellow 67^^^ drakes in barren sky while im LFG.

[Belizarius]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div><div>Negative. Im a bit tired of the whines myself. I think the Illusionist class is fine. Just depends on what you want to do in a group/raid. Why do people keep bringing up worst DPS...DPS is horrible? I think most of the real illusionists that browse this board will disagree that DPS is an issue at this point. Sony needs to focus on raids. Other then that...we are fine. And even in a raid I think we need very minor tweaking.</div><div> </div><div>In a group we really do shine.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Mostly agree.  I think our DPS, and our utility in groups is pretty much where it should be.  All we need, is for at least some of our core abilities to add some sort of value against epics.  If stun and stifle had some sort of alternate debuff effect on epics (apart from power drain which is indeed useless), I'd be mostly happy.</p><p>That's the tradeoff.  Enchanters generally expected to lose some DPS in exchange for utility, but when that utility is negated, we get upset.  if the answer is more DPS, then this is the wrong class to play.</p><p>On raids, my wife's swashy does <strong>more</strong> DPS, has <strong>more</strong> debuffs, <em><strong>and</strong> </em>is harder to kill.  All I bring is a bit of mana regen to my group.</p>

[Mac]

<div></div><div>Lvl41 now on Nagafen, and I'd have to say that Illusionist is excellent solo, and extremely good in group vs. group. In 6man quest/grind groups, my Illu really shines. Haven't tried any raiding yet, but I'd guess by all the complaining that I am going to feel useless. Fortunately, I already feel useless for attending a PvE raid in the first place, so it's really a non-issue for me.</div>

[trenor]

<div>illusionist is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good solo till ya hit 55 or so and then the law of scales hits where your damage doesnt really get increased as much as the mobs hp.  Solo yes we can take out some stuff pretty easily it takes forever and we are outdamaged by many healer classes which i personally find unacceptable.</div><div> </div><div>Fiz</div>

[KaltenAlTh]

<div></div><div></div><div>I've posted about 6 or so other examples here that show me doing what I believe to be pretty dam good DPS.  Here's another example, 3 mob pull on an epic raid.</div><div> </div><div>Lvl70Swashy 88204 | 1,400.06Lvl70Assasin 70330 | 1,116.35Lvl70Warlock 58896 | 934.86Lvl70Brigand 52498 | 833.30<font color="#cc0000">Lvl70Illusionist 48048 | 762.67 (ME)</font>Lvl70Brigand 39634 | 629.11Lvl70Warlock 38091 | 604.62Lvl70Zerker 36890 | 585.56Lvl70Monk 34837 | 552.97Lvl70Guardian 34010 |</div><div> </div><div>I'm good to go solo just slow, I'm awsome in groups.  I just want my spells that do not work on epics to do something useful and perhaps the dots to do a little more damage to help speed up solo'ing.</div><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:26 PM</span></p>

[Nupr]

<div></div><p>I've given up really.  I got a love / hate relationship with my class.  Everything is so happy until I enter into a raid zone... (or Halls of Fate).  I can solo around and take care of quests when I'm by myself and I'm a worthwhile party member when I'm in a group (except Halls of Fate).</p><p>Then comes the raiding, which is where most of my time is spent in the game.  In DoF there were a few epic encounters where you could lock down some components of the encounter, nothing that couldn't be taken care of by off tanking but it was still there.  In Lab, which is the only x4 raid zone in KoS that most people have access to, nothing I've come across can be effected by control spells.  No trash whatsoever, except the replicating blobbies which you need to kill or they'll crash the zone.  They're all too powerful for us.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And for whatever reason this trend towards some normal mobs being immune to our spells is BS.  They gimped us in epic encounters and now they're starting to [Removed for Content] us in regular group encounters.  I just don't understand.  Phase is just plain useless.</p><p>They have made some good changes for us though, and hopefully they'll continue evaluating our plight.  Mana Flow change was very good.  Prismatic Havoc castable raid wide is awesome.  Barrier of Intellect was another great change.  So I keep on getting strung along in the hopes they'll finally fix us.  Or whenever they put in late game betrayal I'll go Coercer.  The grass may not be greener over there but at least it's slightly less brown for raiding.</p>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KaltenAlThor wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>I've posted about 6 or so other examples here that show me doing <font color="#ccff00">what I believe to be pretty dam good DPS.</font>  Here's another example, 3 mob pull on an epic raid.</div><div> </div><div>Lvl70Swashy 88204 | 1,400.06Lvl70Assasin 70330 | 1,116.35Lvl70Warlock 58896 | 934.86Lvl70Brigand 52498 | 833.30<font color="#cc0000">Lvl70Illusionist 48048 | 762.67 (ME)</font>Lvl70Brigand 39634 | 629.11Lvl70Warlock 38091 | 604.62Lvl70Zerker 36890 | 585.56Lvl70Monk 34837 | 552.97Lvl70Guardian 34010 |</div><div> </div><div>I'm good to go solo just slow, I'm awsome in groups.  I just want my spells that do not work on epics to do something useful and perhaps the dots to do a little more damage to help speed up solo'ing.</div><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:26 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>what you call "pretty dam cool dps", i call "solid tier 3 dps".</p><p>your parse shows that tier 1 / 2 classes can outdamage you. the swash is doing almost double your damage.</p><p>it also shows that a higher tier class dont get their dps for free but have to work for it or will fall behind.</p><p>thats fine with me. solid tier 3 dps is ok.</p><p>what i am not fine with and i guess we agree here is that those other classes keep their utility, while most of illusionist utility is rendered useless against epics. power drain, stifle, stun etc.</p><p>have an idea how many debuffs a swash can cast on a mob while doing high dps?</p><p>just to make us aware i will list them here. (not all are equally usefull maybe, but show me one that is as useless as power drain ! )</p><ul><li>debuff WIS</li><li>debuff defense</li><li>bebuff parry</li><li>debuff dps</li><li>debuff casting skills</li><li>debuffs melee skills</li><li>debuff phys.mitigation x2</li><li>debuff magic and mental</li><li>debuff AGI</li><li>debuff INT</li></ul><p>illu debuffs in comparison:</p><ul><li>debuff magic, mental and devine for 896 (swash debuffs mental and magic for 1632)</li><li>debuff melee skills (dont have T7 numbers, at T6 illu was -36 vs. swash melee debuff -56)</li></ul><p> </p>

[Somna]

<div></div>Yeah, most of the bad things about Illusionists are ALL raid related.  However, in a group/solo situation, it is ridiculous to claim that Illusionists are bad.  Playing an Illusionist in a solo/group setting requires flexibility and patience.  If someone doesn't have either of those two qualities, then yes Illusionist is definitely not a good choice for that player.  Illusionists are <b>extremely</b> self-sufficient.  Illusionists have high enough DPS to go with the control spells to solo an enormous variety of mobs to actually get things dead in a decent amount of time, but not so high that all the DPS addicts start flocking to the class, ticking off the T1/T2 DPS classes and getting us nerfed to oblivion. And what the hell is this misinformed joke of a complaint? <span><blockquote><hr>jinna wrote:<div>Power regen.  Knee slapper.  <b>When SOE made power regen spells combat only</b>, they made the provisioner the king of power regen.  Far more power is regened  out of combat than in combat.  Also there are other classes that have in combat power regen, some better than illusionists.</div><hr></blockquote></span>Illusionist power regen works both in AND out of combat.  An extra 42 power a tick is quite<b> </b>noticeable when you tradeskill.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Somna on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:36 AM</span></p>

[WikiView]

<span><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KaltenAlThor wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>I've posted about 6 or so other examples here that show me doing <font color="#ccff00">what I believe to be pretty dam good DPS.</font>  Here's another example, 3 mob pull on an epic raid.</div><div> </div><div>Lvl70Swashy 88204 | 1,400.06Lvl70Assasin 70330 | 1,116.35Lvl70Warlock 58896 | 934.86Lvl70Brigand 52498 | 833.30<font color="#cc0000">Lvl70Illusionist 48048 | 762.67 (ME)</font>Lvl70Brigand 39634 | 629.11Lvl70Warlock 38091 | 604.62Lvl70Zerker 36890 | 585.56Lvl70Monk 34837 | 552.97Lvl70Guardian 34010 |</div><div> </div><div>I'm good to go solo just slow, I'm awsome in groups.  I just want my spells that do not work on epics to do something useful and perhaps the dots to do a little more damage to help speed up solo'ing.</div><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:26 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>what you call "pretty dam cool dps", i call "solid tier 3 dps".</p><p>your parse shows that tier 1 / 2 classes can outdamage you. the swash is doing almost double your damage.</p><p>it also shows that a higher tier class dont get their dps for free but have to work for it or will fall behind.</p><p>thats fine with me. solid tier 3 dps is ok.</p><p>what i am not fine with and i guess we agree here is that those other classes keep their utility, while most of illusionist utility is rendered useless against epics. power drain, stifle, stun etc.</p><p>have an idea how many debuffs a swash can cast on a mob while doing high dps?</p><p>just to make us aware i will list them here. (not all are equally usefull maybe, but show me one that is as useless as power drain ! )</p><ul><li>debuff WIS</li><li>debuff defense</li><li>bebuff parry</li><li>debuff dps</li><li>debuff casting skills</li><li>debuffs melee skills</li><li>debuff phys.mitigation x2</li><li>debuff magic and mental</li><li>debuff AGI</li><li>debuff INT</li></ul><p>illu debuffs in comparison:</p><ul><li>debuff magic, mental and devine for 896 (swash debuffs mental and magic for 1632)</li><li>debuff melee skills (dont have T7 numbers, at T6 illu was -36 vs. swash melee debuff -56)</li></ul><p> </p><hr></blockquote>i like what uve done with it all..let me begin with saying i got a 70 swashy and my alt is a 57 illu.swashy vs illu is very hard to set up against eachother cuz swashy is like u are listing a debuff class.we get all kewl debuffs and can spike dmg like u can see on the parser up there.when i look at the parser i see the 88k dmg and 1400 dps. thats kewl, but when u rolled ur illu u havent thought about doing dps?would be the same to roll a guardian and think u can heal?illusionist is buff classes, swashy got pathfinding as their only group buff, and if the swashy is smart he debuffs to maximize his own dmg aka drop phys debuffs and spam (tho when im playing my swashy on raids i have to drop all sorts of debuffs which takes time and doesnt exactly ups my own dmg.)lets go back to look at the illumanaflow vs pickpocketmanaflow gives a target 10% pwr after 30 sec (1 min recast) pickpocket (swashy aa) takes 4-6s from a humanoid mob (1 min recast)do i even have to describe what is most usefull?manaregen, pwr & cold/heat mitigation buff, haste, spell procs is to optimize others dmg not ur own.stop being [Removed for Content] that u have to buff others dmg to see them have more numbers on a dps parser.btw we dont have mental debuffs... its magic/divine.my 2 cp</span><div></div>

[Mongowth]

<div>Illu's truly aren't that bad. We're made of paper but on the balance side, you should never get hit and if that chance ever comes around for the mob to not be stunned or mezzed then they should be chained.</div><div> </div><div>The only gripe that seems to be constant is the raid-ineffectiveness (which rarely I see) and a slight part of fine tuning and maybe scaling on spells. THATS IT!</div><div> </div><div>You can't solo green ^ then you are seriously doing something terribly wrong imho.</div><div> </div><div>To say you'd rather a necro/conj etc then I could agree. My main is my illu but I've rolled a 25 necro and love the class, I've also got a fury and assassin, both of which I love too! Maybe that class is more suited to you. Just a shame it took you up to 60+ illu to figure that out :/</div><div> </div><div>For the illu to not be the class for you, it happens. Me personally, I'm having a blast!</div>

[trenor]

<div></div><p>Don't suppose nyoud care to post your dps in raids now without the multi proc form pis line those are obviously old parse on a single target true raid mob you will get no where near that withjout this proc that added about 200 dps or more.  Can take away a solid 100 dps from the limited pet which isnt truly your and youll get around what we actually do 300-400 dps.  This wouldnt be a bad number really if our utility was upgraded a bit.</p>

[zit]

<div></div><div><div><em>...swashy vs illu is very hard to set up against eachother cuz swashy is like u are listing a debuff class...</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>i completeley agree on this.</div><div> </div><div>but i think you missed my point entirely.</div><div> </div><div>i wasnt ranting about illu dps. i wasnt ranting that swash can outdamage us.</div><div> </div><div>i also wasnt ranting about illusionists getting less debuffs than swash.</div><div> </div><div>my point was, and i repeat from my post above:</div><div><p><em><strong>what i am not fine with and i guess we agree here is that those other classes keep their utility, while most of illusionist utility is rendered useless against epics. power drain, stifle, stun etc.</strong></em></p><p>swash are a debuffing class. how many of your debuffs cannot be cast on epics?</p><p>illusionist have just as many CC spells as swash have debuffs. how many of those illu skills have any effect on epics? swash can use most of their utility, illu cannot use a good part of their utility. see the difference? herein lies the problem and imbalance.</p></div></div>

[Barobra]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Belizarius wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div><div>Negative. Im a bit tired of the whines myself. I think the Illusionist class is fine. Just depends on what you want to do in a group/raid. Why do people keep bringing up worst DPS...DPS is horrible? I think most of the real illusionists that browse this board will disagree that DPS is an issue at this point. Sony needs to focus on raids. Other then that...we are fine. And even in a raid I think we need very minor tweaking.</div><div> </div><div>In a group we really do shine.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Mostly agree.  I think our DPS, and our utility in groups is pretty much where it should be.  All we need, is for at least some of our core abilities to add some sort of value against epics.  If stun and stifle had some sort of alternate debuff effect on epics (apart from power drain which is indeed useless), I'd be mostly happy.</p><p>That's the tradeoff.  Enchanters generally expected to lose some DPS in exchange for utility, but when that utility is negated, we get upset.  if the answer is more DPS, then this is the wrong class to play.</p><p>On raids, my wife's swashy does <strong>more</strong> DPS, has <strong>more</strong> debuffs, <em><strong>and</strong> </em>is harder to kill.  All I bring is a bit of mana regen to my group.</p><hr></blockquote><div>This is an interesting point. But power regen is such a HUGE deal. How much does it help vs more dps/debuffs. In any situation power regen is needed and very important. How much does there debuff help? Probably not a deal breaker? This is why I believe we need very <strong>minor</strong> tweaking in a raid. We are almost getting too powerful. I think its a fine line right now. Too me a swashy should definatley do a good amount of DPS, as far as powerful debuffs (against epics)....thats questionable.</div><div> </div><div>Maybe the answer is an epic only spell of some kind. Or perhaps make the dismay line useful on epics?</div>

[zit]

<div></div><p>^^^ wasnt sure first if this is ironic or not. but after reading several times it seems to me you are serious.</p><p> </p><p>dont underestimate the importance of debuffs and dps on raids.</p>

[Xonosco]

i just recently started to play my illusionist again and so far i am really enjoying it.<div></div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<div></div><p>^^^ wasnt sure first if this is ironic or not. but after reading several times it seems to me you are serious.</p><p> </p><p>dont underestimate the importance of debuffs and dps on raids.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely!</p><p> </p><p>As for the comments about us being a buff class, I disagree.  We are buffers <strong><em>and</em> </strong>debuffers, I treat stuns and stifles as 'debuffs' that mitigate the mobs damage output.  Those are really our best abilities in the EQ2 framework, outside of raids.  We desperately need <em>something</em> that will help reduce the non-melee damage output of epic mobs. (Dismay line does work against epics, but that's melee only).</p><p>By comparison, our buffs are really nothing much to get excited about, and very concentration limited (because haste and dynamism are both 1 conc per target).   Dynamism is not too bad I guess, but haste on melee autoattack was never a big deal.    Our group resist buff is probably one of the least needed (magic/mental/divine).    If you want to see a <em><strong>real</strong> </em>buffing class look at Bards.  Their raid-usable buffs <em><strong>and</strong> </em>debuffs beat us hands down, most of them are only 1 conc per group (friend or enemy)!</p><p>Yeah we get power regen, Bards get that plus much more.  If the difference between Bard power regen, and the extra power we can provide <em><strong>if</strong> </em>we work at it, actually makes a difference to your epic fight, then you must be seriously low on raid DPS.</p><p>In groups, power regen is usually a pretty minor point.</p><p>Prismatic Havoc is NOT really a buff, it's a nuke, the damage and aggro and re-use timers all acrue to us.  The recipient is completely oblivious to the effect.</p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:04 PM</span></p>

[Domini]

<div></div><p>LOL.  I can solo ^^^ mobs my same level.</p><p>Send Construct in...Stun....Debuff DPS of Target....Prismatic on Personae...Send Personae in....Cast Power Transfer Spell...Cast Canni Spell....When Personae gets low...Mezz mob...</p><p> </p><p>Rinse...Repeat....</p><p> </p><p>I challenge anyone to equal an Illusionists solo power.  My wife is a 61 Conjurer and I'm a 61 Illusionist and we duo ^^^ 2 levels higher than us.  I can solo much higher level mobs than she can.</p><p> </p><p>Any comments?</p>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dominion wrote:<div></div><p>LOL.  I can solo ^^^ mobs my same level.</p><p>Send Construct in...Stun....Debuff DPS of Target....Prismatic on Personae...Send Personae in....Cast Power Transfer Spell...Cast Canni Spell....When Personae gets low...Mezz mob...</p><p> </p><p>Rinse...Repeat....</p><p> </p><p>I challenge anyone to equal an Illusionists solo power.  My wife is a 61 Conjurer and I'm a 61 Illusionist and we duo ^^^ 2 levels higher than us.  I can solo much higher level mobs than she can.</p><p> </p><p>Any comments?</p><hr></blockquote>Yes we can, and it's sometimes useful when you need to kill a specific heroic mob.  But it's also a SLOW way to get XP.  Quite a few other classes do better than us when soloing for straight XP, they just don't pick ^^^ heroics.

[MrDiz]

1) Illusionists solo better than any other class I play.2) Illusionists CC is awesome. I trioed with a swashbuckler tank and fury healer last night and we were picking up adds left right and center (5 triple up adds at one point) and we didnt die once.3) If my illusionist and templar go LFG at the same time my illusionist will get a group offer first about 80% of the time. Good group leaders love the class.4) I raid my illusionist more than any other char I have at the REQUEST of my guild.

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>MrDizzi wrote:1) Illusionists solo better than any other class I play.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">illusionists are for sure not the worst class to solo. that they solo better than any other class you play need not mean much though considering that you have templar and guardian on your roster :smileywink: . compared to the classes i play beside illusionist i would say the class is holding its own. in some regards its surpassing others, in some regards its falling behind. overall doing fine.</font>2) Illusionists CC is awesome. I trioed with a swashbuckler tank and fury healer last night and we were picking up adds left right and center (5 triple up adds at one point) and we didnt die once.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">that illusionists CC is awesome, now that i would hope. its a bit like saying shaman wards are awesome or bard group buffs are awesome. if the class wouldnt be good in at what its designed around then we had a major problem and design flaw.. ...which we have anyways as soon as we face the real big mobs with those nice immunities.</font></p><p><font color="#ccff00">btw. i trioed with a brigand tank, fury healer and assassin the other day and we didnt have a problem to avoid those 5 adds you were getting. :smileyvery-happy:</font></p><p>3) If my illusionist and templar go LFG at the same time my illusionist will get a group offer first about 80% of the time. Good group leaders love the class.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">i sometimes got the impression that mostly lazy group leaders (tanks) love the class when they didnt want to care about pathing of mobs and timing pulls.</font></p><p>4) I raid my illusionist more than any other char I have at the REQUEST of my guild.</p><p><font color="#ccff00">bards and enchanter are together the least played classes. if the numbers were switched with guardian and templar who are still amongst the most played classes i would be surprised if your guild would still ask you to bring your illu.</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[MrDiz]

All valid points Zitha, but for people thinking about starting an illusionist the fact that we are rare may be a plus point. Its a great class to play and whilst they arent essential to a successful group/raid, they improve groups/raids to the point of being in demand.Id rather play a class where the demand for them out-weighs the supply <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In a way thats the reason I quit the guardian: basically hundreds of thousands of tanks and noone wants one that leaks power like a century old battery unless they are the MT of a raid guild and [Removed for Content] to the eyeballs.

[Barobra]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<div></div><p>^^^ wasnt sure first if this is ironic or not. but after reading several times it seems to me you are serious.</p><p> </p><p>dont underestimate the importance of debuffs and dps on raids.</p><hr></blockquote>OK prove it. Its hard to do. Just like its hard to prove does our melee debuff actually do much. Would take hundreds of parses on the same target (same level of that mob, same everything). Everyone would have to cast the same spells each time you did it each time. Would take cooperation from the entire raid. AKA ok everyone dont cast anyone just do dps. NO DEBUFFS. This person is going to debuff only while we parse over and over....just does not happen.

[zit]

<div></div><div>prove what? that debuffs actually have some effect? this is like asking if stifle actually has some effect. doesnt need much prove or parsing, this becomes pretty fast obvious already when you have a fast glance at your log.</div><div> </div><div>there are of course some debuffs that are harder to check, like our Dismay for example. mostly because we often dont know what parameter we have to monitor.</div><div> </div><div>others are pretty simple to attest, like physical mitigation debuff for example. depending how much is debuffed all melee damage will hit harder. with a debuff of -1400 my rogue is hitting 20-25% harder than without. of course not only the rogue will hit harder, but everyone's melee attack that lands on a raid mob. including CAs, autoattack, most summoner pets and even illu construct. now we can stack swash mitigation debuff with other classes and raid melee becomes not only 20% improved but way higher. which can shorten epic fights considerably.</div><div>similar does it work with resist debuff. suddenly wizzi ice comet is hitting 7-8 k instead of 4-5 k. sure speeds things up.</div><div> </div><div>shorter fights mean ... um... power regen doesnt become an issue.  :smileytongue:</div><div> </div><div>works also the other way round with debuffs that weaken a mob's offensive. for expample get some attack slow on the mob and it will hit less often > tank takes less damage > healers will have less to heal, and again... power becomes less of an issue.</div><div> </div><div>(and no, i dont need hundrets of parses to be able to count how often per minute a slowed vs. a non-slowed mob hits).</div>

[Nupr]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<div></div><p>^^^ wasnt sure first if this is ironic or not. but after reading several times it seems to me you are serious.</p><p> </p><p>dont underestimate the importance of debuffs and dps on raids.</p><hr></blockquote>OK prove it. Its hard to do. Just like its hard to prove does our melee debuff actually do much. Would take hundreds of parses on the same target (same level of that mob, same everything). Everyone would have to cast the same spells each time you did it each time. Would take cooperation from the entire raid. AKA ok everyone dont cast anyone just do dps. NO DEBUFFS. This person is going to debuff only while we parse over and over....just does not happen.<hr></blockquote><p>While it may be hard to prove how effective our dismay line is on raid targets, it's fairly simple to show how effective mit debuffs like what a swashie has.  Especially their evil half, brigands.  And that's what he was talking about, a swashie.  Our MT swears up and down that he can notice when Lung Puncture hits, and that's one of the swashies offensive debuffs.</p><p>Honestly, I can't think of a single reason to bring an illusionist along on a raid, besides being dependant on mana regen and you've run out of troubs and dirges.  I'm open to suggestions on what we provide that's useful. </p><p>DoF raiding left me optimistic with the bulk of most encounters effected by our control spells.  KoS raiding we have trouble effecting all raid mobs that I've come across and even some mobs in xp instances.</p>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>Nupren wrote:I can't think of a single reason to bring an illusionist along on a raid, besides being dependant on mana regen and you've run out of troubs and dirges.  I'm open to suggestions on what we provide that's useful. </blockquote>There is nothing we can suggest that you will believe. My illusionist is a great raid char. My illusionist brings a lot to a raid. My illusionist is currently in more demand than my templar. Of all my characters it is the most versatile.

[Pins]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:<blockquote><hr>Nupren wrote:I can't think of a single reason to bring an illusionist along on a raid, besides being dependant on mana regen and you've run out of troubs and dirges.  I'm open to suggestions on what we provide that's useful. </blockquote>There is nothing we can suggest that you will believe. My illusionist is a great raid char. My illusionist brings a lot to a raid. My illusionist is currently in more demand than my templar. Of all my characters it is the most versatile.<hr></blockquote>Lets say your guild has 23 slots filled in a raid, and a troubador and an illusionist logs in.  There are currently no bards or enchanters on the raid.  Which person will be picked to go on the raid?  Lets say they're both officers, and they're equal in knowledge of raids, etc.  If you pick the Illusionist, then you're hurting yourself a lot, because the troubador offers a lot more than the illusionist.

[zit]

<div></div><p><em>Lets say your guild has 23 slots filled in a raid, and a troubador and an illusionist logs in.  There are currently no bards or enchanters on the raid.  Which person will be picked to go on the raid?</em> </p><p>bah Pinski, that was too easy, even me knows the answer !</p><p>but i have one for you too:</p><p>Lets say your guild has 23 slots filled in a raid, and a troubador, a dirge, a coercer and an illusionist logs in. There are currently already one troubador, one dirge and one coercer on raid. Which person will be picked to go on the raid if the raid leader want maximise effectiveness and all 4 players are equally skilled? </p>

[Barobra]

Believe it or not a smart raid leader would pick Illusionist in that situation.<div></div>

[MrDiz]

When I log in to raid and ask "what character should I play" my guild usually ask "Is your swashy 65+ yet?" and then pick the illusionist.Ill go you one better though. On on raid we had 26 people turn up (almost unheard of for us as we normally get about 22), and the two not able to join were fighters. Had 30 people logged on I can guarantee that the 6 sat out of raid would be fighters or healers and NOT my illusionist.You see EVERY class is useless in certain guild, or certain situations. Guardians for example. Guardians are utterly useless in any raid where any other fighter has better gear than them.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:Believe it or not a smart raid leader would pick Illusionist in that situation.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Why would you pick an illusionist over a troubador?The dirge and coercer are probably in the MT group, with a single troubador for 1 DPS group. Give the other DPS group the second troubador, and their DPS can now go up even more without aggro issues because of the de-aggro troubadors get. An Illusionist doesn't offer much to raids in comparison to a troubador. When I was a raid leader, I'd go with the troubador before the illusionist if I had the choice.

[Barobra]

<div></div><div>Because the Illusionist can buff the MT while not in the MT group and the troub can not (synergism). As well as feed mana to him. Also if you actually pay attention to what your doing in a raid you can give more power to your group as well as int buffs. And I can keep up with a troubs DPS easy.</div><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 AM</span></p>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div><div>Because the Illusionist can buff the MT while not in the MT group and the troub can not (synergism). As well as feed mana to him. Also if you actually pay attention to what your doing in a raid you can give more power to your group as well as int buffs. And I can keep up with a troubs DPS easy.</div><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yes, because the tank really needs a proc that will rarely go off to help him keep aggro ...INT buffs, hrm, wait a second, an INT buff that doesn't stack with other mages. Not to mention your 30s INT buff is a sad, sad joke. Big deal you can keep up with a troubador's DPS, but can you keep up with how much his buffs affect the group in terms of total damage allowed? A wizard in a group with an illusionist with consisently do less DPS than a wizard in a group with a troubador, because the wizard in the illusionist's group will be dead the majority of the time from ripping aggro.

[WikiView]

so now dps is a bad idea?make up ur mind d00d<div></div>

[trenor]

<div>Heh, how can you dps on a mob immune to mental you........ when all your spells are that do you even know what you are talking about</div>

[trenor]

<div></div><p>wrong thread</p><p>to the swashie to you play a chanter cause you got alot to say about nothing you know about if not</p>

[Barobra]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div><div>Because the Illusionist can buff the MT while not in the MT group and the troub can not (synergism). As well as feed mana to him. Also if you actually pay attention to what your doing in a raid you can give more power to your group as well as int buffs. And I can keep up with a troubs DPS easy.</div><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yes, because the tank really needs a proc that will rarely go off to help him keep aggro ...INT buffs, hrm, wait a second, an INT buff that doesn't stack with other mages. Not to mention your 30s INT buff is a sad, sad joke. Big deal you can keep up with a troubador's DPS, but can you keep up with how much his buffs affect the group in terms of total damage allowed? A wizard in a group with an illusionist with consisently do less DPS than a wizard in a group with a troubador, because the wizard in the illusionist's group will be dead the majority of the time from ripping aggro.<hr></blockquote><div>Where are you getting 30 int? Also we do have heal crit and reduce agro with AA's. We add synergism to other group members along with more power and greater power regen in the long run. Not to mention I will be casting sentiment which will boost everyone to max int garunteed constantly along with all spell casting abilities. Then add in Savante. Power saving is more with an Illusionist. In the end I would rather have me with 5 wizards then a troub. I CAN and DO give more power to a group then a dirge or troub period. Especially with master gaze and epiphany. Not to mention I will be feeding power EVERYTIME mana flow comes up. We are a power giving class and we do it well. Use it wisely.</div><div> </div><div>I like Illusionist. I am sorry that you do not. But I do not, and will not agree with this constant Illusionist bashing. I play well and people value me in a group and in raid. I am sorry that you are not valued in a raid maybe the people you play with don't understand what you truely do or maybe you truely don't understand what you do. Play another class or switch to another game. Give it a rest.</div><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div><div>Because the Illusionist can buff the MT while not in the MT group and the troub can not (synergism). As well as feed mana to him. Also if you actually pay attention to what your doing in a raid you can give more power to your group as well as int buffs. And I can keep up with a troubs DPS easy.</div><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yes, because the tank really needs a proc that will rarely go off to help him keep aggro ...INT buffs, hrm, wait a second, an INT buff that doesn't stack with other mages. Not to mention your 30s INT buff is a sad, sad joke. Big deal you can keep up with a troubador's DPS, but can you keep up with how much his buffs affect the group in terms of total damage allowed? A wizard in a group with an illusionist with consisently do less DPS than a wizard in a group with a troubador, because the wizard in the illusionist's group will be dead the majority of the time from ripping aggro.<hr></blockquote><div>Where are you getting 30 int? Also we do have heal crit and reduce agro with AA's. We add synergism to other group members along with more power and greater power regen in the long run. Not to mention I will be casting sentiment which will boost everyone to max int garunteed constantly along with all spell casting abilities. Then add in Savante. Power saving is more with an Illusionist. In the end I would rather have me with 5 wizards then a troub. I CAN and DO give more power to a group then a dirge or troub period. Especially with master gaze and epiphany. Not to mention I will be feeding power EVERYTIME mana flow comes up. We are a power giving class and we do it well. Use it wisely.</div><div> </div><div>I like Illusionist. I am sorry that you do not. But I do not, and will not agree with this constant Illusionist bashing. I play well and people value me in a group and in raid. I am sorry that you are not valued in a raid maybe the people you play with don't understand what you truely do or maybe you truely don't understand what you do. Play another class or switch to another game. Give it a rest.</div><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Your 5 wizards will be dead before they run out of power with an Enchanter in their group and no de-aggro. Period. There is NO way a wizard can handle aggro without some form of de-aggro, be it a troubador, a guardian, or a paladin.30s means 30 seconds, the fleeting thoughts line, which is CRAP. Your power/resist buff only stacks the resist portion with other mages in the group. You lower aggro by 7.2%, thish is not enough to help a wizard from drawing aggro in a raid. Casting abilities buff with fleeting thoughts, get this troubadors can buff them constantly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Synergism or Aria of whateveritisnow, hrm, Aria is better, because it gives all 6 people in the group it with 1 conc slot.Do you always make sure you can position yourself with 7.5m of EVERYBODY in your group when you cast devitalizing stare/gazes? Also, so you give more power regen to the group than a bard. Bards augment this by giving more damage potential.Seriously, this is coming from an Illusionist. You keep saying how you're better than a troubador in power regen, I bring up the rest. They are FAR better than an Illusionist in every other aspect except power regen. They also buff more Arcane Resists. And also buff Elemental Resists too! Honestly if I showed up late to a raid, and a troubador did to, I'd probably say take the troubador because they are FAR more beneficial to the raid than an Illusionist.Btw, have you even looked at what a troubador offers compared to an Illusionist?Alin's Seranding line, 40% de-aggro for non-fighters at the highest. Illusionists IF they use 29 AAs will get 7.2% de-aggro for non-fighters.Aria of line, 30% chance to proc extra damage on successfull hostile spell, does the same damage as the Intensity line, with a slightly lower proc chance, and is group-wide for 1 concentration slot.Bria's power regen line, constant power increase is higher due to level differences, however it uses 1 concentration slot.Arcane Chorus line, more arcane resists than we provide.Elemental Chorus line, obviously more elemental resists than we provide <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.Raxxyl's line, a STR/STA buff, which stacks with everybody but Dirge's STR/AGI buff line. While not useful for casters, in group-play this is useful for the scouts/fighters while you XP, or if the troubador is in a hybrid/scout group.Dove Song line, constant casting ability buff, whereas ours can only be up 1/3rd of the time.Haste line, okay we win someplace for once. Our haste is better because it gives MUCH more haste, though only a single target, of course it's all iffy because we're better off putting on another synergism in a raid, unless it's a brigand/assassin in the group because they have self-haste buffs.So now lets compare what we haveSeal of line, INT/WIS buff, the INT portion does not stack with wizard/necromancer/coercer INT/2ndSTAT buff, so it's more than likely not up if you're in a caster friendly group.Aspect of line, Power/Arcane Resist buff. Hrm, well the resists stack, but unless the fight needs the resists, it's more than likely not going to be up, because it doesn't stack with other mage's similiar lines.Savante, okay this is nice, mainly because it has a 50m range when you cast it.Fleeting Thoughts line, this completely blows, why would I bother casting it when everybody in the group is already capped INT? I mean cmon, if you can't get to 439 INT and have a wand of the second life, then you're doing something completely wrong. Well, at least if you can't get to 439 INT that is. I'm breaking 480 INT right now with not the best gear in the world.Devitalizing line, in theory this could be great, but the 7.5m radius around you makes it pretty crappy, not to mention the long casting time.Well, I think that about sums it up in comparing buffing ability. You will probably bring up the fact that we have more stuns/stifles than troubadors, but then I just counter that with, those don't affect epic mobs do they? That leaves us DPS + slight buffs, when we should be able to do a lot more than we currently can. Bards were meant to be Buffs + DPS, it's obvious by the fact they get so many buffs. Moorgard said our damage came from enchancing other members in our groups, however I have trouble seeing that happening much because of how little we truely offer in buffs, besides power regen.

[Barobra]

<div></div><div>You bring up good points. But I still disagree that troubs are better in EVERY situation , end all be all. Too say that troubs are better PERIOD in ALL situations is in my opinion a false statement.</div><div> </div><div>In any given raid I will be next to the casters...since I am a caster myself. So the 7.5m isint really a big deal. As I said I am beneficial in a caster group. The sentiment line increases all spell skills as well...... not just int.</div><div> </div><div>Resists are over rated. If you are fighting epics with AE's you should be jousting. I rarely get hit with AE's. Thus, if I am jousting along with others I am going to be next to them to give them gazes......</div><div> </div><div>Like I said we are about power...and power is a BIG deal. I provide power and DPS along with buffs to others. Mana flow has really changed things for us. We feed power to many people in a raid and if anyone person is getting low we can give it to them. Making our power abilities more versatile then a bard. Bard is unable to help anyone outside there group when it comes to power. The recast is very nice as well.... this was a well deserved AA for us.</div><div> </div><div>BTW I apologize for attacking you, obviously you have done your homework. Let me point out what you consider the troub to excel at.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Alin's Seranding line, 40% de-aggro for non-fighters at the highest. Illusionists IF they use 29 AAs will get 7.2% de-aggro for non-fighters</strong>. </div><div> </div><div>Obviously better then us can't argue this. This is what I truely is their argument in a caster group over an illusionist.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Bria's power regen line, constant power increase is higher due to level differences, however it uses 1 concentration slot.</strong></div><div> </div><div>Hands down we own the bards in power....and its obvious....we have 5 spells at our disposal to aid power to group. Since were talking about a raid situation mana cloak is obviously not really important as it only really matters in the MT group which we rarely end up in (but has happened in my experience). So were left with Epi, Mana Flow (if you dont have 1 aa point then delete your char now), Gazes, Savante. In my opinion we are winning in this catagory. And very well I might add. There measly 1 or 2 mana increase per tic ...(I forget exactly what maybe 5 difference?) just doesn't really matter.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Arcane Chorus line, more arcane resists than we provide.</strong></div><div> </div><div>Not that important as I said with jousting. Opinions will vary.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Elemental Chorus line, obviously more elemental resists than we provide</strong></div><div> </div><div>Same thing.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Raxxyl's line, a STR/STA buff, which stacks with everybody but Dirge's STR/AGI buff line. While not useful for casters, in group-play this is useful for the scouts/fighters while you XP, or if the troubador is in a hybrid/scout group</strong></div><div><strong></strong> </div><div>They buff str/sta while we buff int/wis.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Dove Song line, constant casting ability buff, whereas ours can only be up 1/3rd of the time.</strong></div><div><strong></strong> </div><div>Seems better but I would have to see the numbers.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Haste line, okay we win someplace for once. Our haste is better because it gives MUCH more haste, though only a single target, of course it's all iffy because we're better off putting on another synergism in a raid, unless it's a brigand/assassin in the group because they have self-haste buffs.</strong></div><div><strong></strong> </div><div>I agree here, but your right I focus more on synergism. But haste is pointless if your in a pure caster group. Which is my main point...we excel in a pure caster group.</div><div> </div><div>So to me in a pure caster group they are just offering better deagro which may not matter to much depending on the caster class.</div><div> </div><div>Again nice post, good points. I just disagree.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:43 PM</span></p>

[Pins]

Go joust harla dar for me, I beg you. Then watch as you lose because of the waste of time it takes to joust. T7 raiding has a LOT of unjoustable fights now. Harla Dar is 1 of those. Elemental/Arcane Resists are both key to the fight, the need is great for them. Resists are now important again. Back are the days of resisting/mitigating the AE rather than jousting it. Go fight Harla Dar without proper resist gear/buffs, then fight her with the right gear/buffs.

[Barobra]

<div></div>OK so how many epic fights do you ABSOLUTLEY need those buffs?

[Nupr]

<div></div><p>Are we arguing who is better in a caster group now?  Because I can go over some stuff that somehow escaped the issue.</p><p>Aria of Exaltation / Acclimation  (sp?)  - Synergism for the group.</p><p>Precision of the Maestro - 100% proc rate Synergism for group, limited duration, stacks with aria.</p><p>Jesters Cap - reduced (42%?) recast timers for limited duration, single target / raid wide.</p><p>They also provide adequate power regen except maybe for the power hungry warlocks.  Plus the (40%) aggro reduction that we already talked about.  Int buff is meaningless in a caster group because someone else will have one up and they don't stack.  Troubs lose out on the int buff, but someone else will have their int buff up in a caster group.</p><p>Mana Flow is great.  I love Mana Flow now.  But to replace all that for Mana Flow and slighty better mana regen which is so pointless due to the fast pace of combat unless you're chain pulling epic instances.  And troubs can play their health regen anyhow to trivialize the many health/power conversion items and spells in the game.</p><p>No way any raid leader would pick an illusionist over a troub in a caster group unless there's already a troub in it.</p><p> </p>

[MrDiz]

Im trying to understand the Illusionist OR troubadour argument going on here. We have 2 troubs and 1 illusionist in our guild and all I can say is we pick ALL three for our raids. Troubs and Illusionists in the same raid as each other do awesome dps for a start. The llusionist can also up necro dps quite insanely.Also on the point about the 30s buff being useless? What game are you playing? Thats the first spell I cast on pull. The int buff and the skill buff it gives helps all the debuffs land in those early ciritcal seconds.I hate to tell you this guys, but those of you that think your illusionist is useless on raids, well it probably is. Our illusionists on the other hand rock. My illusioniost adds more dps to the raid than any single DPS char out there. Hands down no competition. I can increase dps on the each of the 2 troubs by over 140, our 2 necros by similar amounts and with troubs proc buffs my own dps is anywhere from tier2 to way beyond (2k+ dps). Add to this power regen for the group, ability to feed Mt power even across raid and CC on the non nameds and frankly only an insane man would not want one on raid IF played by someone with pride and faith in their class.I do not know why some illusionists are determined to try to convince the EQ2 world not to invite us on raids, but luckily for me those i raid with trust my performance in raid rather than the writings of those that see illusionists as mezzers or nothing.

[jun]

<div></div><p>You know, I could really care less how other classes compared to my toon in a raid/group.  My problem (and theirs) has always been the inability to perform my 'class-defining' skills during raids.  I was never naive or unreasonable about it either... I can accept that SOME events have mobs that have a very high resist to my spells, but SOE's solution was to make them ALL immune.  I can assure you that there is nothing in the game more aggrivating (to me) than seeing that darn 'Target is immune to X effect' (or whatever it was). </p><p> </p><p>An Illusionist was never intended to be an easy class to play... ever.  I enjoyed the entire concept of 'crowd control'.  That is what drew me to the class in the first place.  The thrill of my fight has always been the balance between my control over absolute mayhem.  No, I didn't need to perform CC in every group I was in... but I can tell you there was not ONE group I was in that wasn't darn happy to have me when things went bad.  Ultimately, I didn't need to be 'the most important' person in my groups/raids... but I don't appreciate being one of the most 'overlooked' with regards to my abilities either.</p><p> </p><p>Honestly, there is nothing more disheartening in the game than feeling like your hands are tied with regards to your role.  Epic fights are the elite test of TEAMWORK.  Excuse me, but having my hands tied in ALL of the most important battles I can get into within the confines of this game is NOT something I signed up for when I devoted countless HOURS to the growth of my character.  If you are confused at this point, let me clarify again... I absolutely LOVE my Illusionist!  There is NO WAY I would ever reroll for another.  To me, there is no other class that appeals to my style of play MORE than the Illusionist.</p><p> </p><p>Actually, I have reconsidered my previous statement.   There is one thing MORE disheartening and frustrating than what is currently wrong with my inability to perform my job... the fact that I have NOT heard a single peep from SOE regarding these issues as they promised.  I have almost stopped posting on the forums and playing simply because I am giving them a chance to resolve the issues without me inflaming ill will towards their efforts.</p><p> </p><p>So, while we share 'some' feelings of resentment with regards to our class.  I can't say I feel the same way about the class as some of you do.  Comparing 'abilities' against other similar classes in the game is not one of my grievances.  My thoughts are on that matter are these... first and foremost, remove my ability cuffs and we shall see who gets that last invite.  Give me back my abilities to control events and I will SHOW you (without all the cute parser info) why you want (not need) me around.</p><p> </p><p>Kailen</p>

[Barobra]

<div>Im with you I want CC to be our trade. I played EQ 1 for a long time and chanters were such a great class to have around in so many situations. They had alot of utility and very little DPS. This is how I wish we were. And I really am enjoying my class when I am trying to lock down 4 mobs while my group attacks another, that is were I REALLY enjoy our class.</div><div> </div><div>Unfortunatley for whatever reason CC in EQ 2 has really taken a dive. In my opinion their are a couple of reasons why.</div><div> </div><div><strong>1</strong>. Alot more classes and alot more abilities with the possibilty to break mez. And alot of people don't even know that X ability will break a mez in X situation. You can't simply say NO AE cause theres buffs that cause AE and pets that will AE upon death...etc....</div><div> </div><div><strong>2</strong>. The addition of autoassist. In my opinion actually hurt CC but helped most other situations. In EQ 1 you would have to create a macro that simply was /assist (person). Which I happen to do in EQ 2 and use it ALL the time. If you have everyone auto assist and there just targeting the tank as soon as he switches to taunt a mezzed target someone in that group will hit it with a DOT or DD or whatever they happen to be casting at that time. To me this is one of the top reasons that mez breaks happen. And DPS classes don't pay attention to what was just mezzed and that the target has changed.... (which they should be able to check).</div><div> </div><div><strong>3</strong>. It is hard to tell when a mob is mezzed. There is a very small visual effect and a sound effect. I think the effect should be very noticeable. Maybe another problem here with people turning off seeing effects of other peoples spells.</div>

[jun]

<div>Again... I blame SOE's inability to balance the abilities of ALL classes to the 'immune' scenarios we as Illusionists are forced to put up with.  If they would stop adding/sharing class defining abilities, perhaps the balancing efforts would make more sense.  All this crap about taking away our abilities to keep from trivializing events is lame approach to addressing the problems we all face with non-stackable spells/effects.</div><div> </div><div>When you take a bird's eye view, we wouldn't have stacking issues if so many classes didn't share abilities.  SOE created that monster... and the only 'easy/quick' solution they could find was to make encounters 'immune' to the effects across the board.  Our issue with this approach is that those abilities happened to be the CORE of what an Illusionist is.  You don't really hear other classes complaining about it so vehemently because it was never their 'core ability' to begin with.  Typically, they are well suited to continue to perform their missions without those skills... we are not.</div><div> </div><div>Stacking issues would probably be a beast of a different nature if we didn't share abilities across the classes.  Heck, there is the possibility that 'stacking' wouldn't be an issue at all.  What's left other than one class attempting to cast an effect that is already on a mob?  Don't even suggest stat enhancement stacking... in my mind, that is what stat caps are for.  Those are what regulate how high someone can raise a specific stat number.  Who cares if 2 or 3 classes cast an INT buff on the group... when a character's stat max is achieved for INT... that's it.</div><div> </div><div>Again, having other abilities that cancel or interrupt ours is both an annoyance and a MUST.  Not every mez we cast is necessary, or beneficial to the group.  I have been in both situations where the xp group is kicking serious butt and a mez would slow it down and generally wasn't needed.  On the other hand, I have been in groups where the tank was made of paper, he didn't have the skill to position, and the DPS was pong'n agro off and on.  Adds were popping on us faster than my refresh on mez... so controlling what I could (stun/root/mez/stifle) was a very necessary line of business.</div><div> </div><div>People that pay attention while playing don't really need a visual indicator to tell them a mob is mez'd if they know what to look for.  Personally, I prefer people not to autoassist.  I bet if they labeled the skill 'idiot's sticky', more people would avoid using it.  Its essentially one more thing that removes attention away from what you SHOULD be concentrating on.  Really, if people are so afraid the tank will switch to taunt off a mob, why not tell everyone to assist someone who will NOT switch targets at all.  In EQ1, I used to target the cleric.  Clerics typically had the primary mob targeted because who ever got its agro was GOING to need a heal.  As long as the mob we were fighting stayed agro'd on the MA... clerics could cast the heal and it would land on the Tank (or who ever took agro).  I guess the short and sweet is that everyone assisted the cleric who was always on the right mob.  No one really cared what the MA was doing until he 'called' for an assist.  If everyone was on the person they were supposed to be on, the CLERIC was the only one that really switched targets :p</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>I don't know... perhaps I am just being close-minded and selfish when I say removing a classes abilities in order to prevent the trivilization of events is NOT a viable option.  Somehow, I don't think that is my opinion alone though... others of the same class seem to have issues swallowing that bit as well.</div><div> </div><div>Kailen</div>

[MrDiz]

I guess the reason Im happy is "class defining" abilities for me are the abilitities it has in EQ2, whereas those who are unhappy feel the abilities the enchanter had in EQ1 had are the "class defining" abilities for an illusionist in EQ2. CC has never really been an important thing in EQ2. Its useful at times, but hardly on par with tanking, buffing, dps, healing etc.With that in mind all I can suggest for people thinking about playing an illusionist is find out what is and is not "class defining" for your class BEFORE you choose it. Dont read i single line about "confuse and befuddle" in the manual and choose to interpret it as CC. The manual descriptions are like the blurbs for movies. If youre looking for major CC, dont even play EQ2. The encounters are made in such a way as to not really require it.

[Somna]

To be honest, I've stopped caring about raid effectiveness, despite the fact that I do raid every day.It's <b>way</b> more entertaining to have people--guilded or otherwise--pull a "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], how are you able to solo all that so easily" reaction on a regular basis.  <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[jun]

<div></div><p>Dizzi,</p><p>I have no misconceptions about Illusionist's roles in EQ2 .vs Chanters in EQ1.  Anyone who has played both would know the difference immediately.  You will not convince me there was never a need for CC in EQ2.  I used to spend hours upon hours down in Varsoon's prior to all the nerfs CC'n all the way through it.  When the Bloodlines adventure pack came out, I spend tons of time completing all those quests with a cleric and berserker.  The final vampire was NO JOKE (even with mez/stun/stifle abilities).  We died several times attempting him as a trio (cleric/berserker/illusionist). </p><p>As far as I knew (<--key statement), we were the first trio to beat him on my server.  It took some planning to achieve.  It was a CHALLENGE!  My presence in the trio certainly did not mean our chance of success was 100% by ANY MEANS.  He had a NASTY AE that we could not stay out of range from and still support our berserker.  So, we had to take the hit right along with him.  When the vampire fired the AE, I would mez (and continue spamming) until the cleric could heal, and regen power to continue the fight.  Sometimes it worked well for a while, but we died at least 6 or 7 times before we got it right.  All in all, it took about 3.5 hours for the 3 of us to kill him and complete the quest.</p><p>I thoroughly ENJOYED being an illusionist in a group when I COULD stun/stifle/mez and DRAIN (like no ones business) in Varsoons.  Did it empower illusionists so much that it broke the game?  Nope.  I still died a considerable amount of times when people broke mez via hitting the wrong target or ae's.  The game/design didn't prohibit our usefulness... the PLAYERS did.  No matter how many times I told them, explained how things worked, there was always some space cadet that either wasn't listening or didn't care.</p><p>I could have came to these boards and thrown a fit about 'balancing' issues when "I" watched my berserker buddy SOLO windfeather on the beach spawn after spawn when it con'd green to him.  But I didn't.  I was content with the fact that my place was controlling events that got out of hand.  There is NOTHING wrong with having CC in this game... nothing.  It is a GREAT concept, and extremely appealing to a lot of people who CHOSE an Illusionist in the initial release of the game.</p><p>I am not asking for god-mode.  I want a REASON to go on a raid.  Sure, being asked by your guild to attend is a wonderful thing.  They are your friends and guildmates and want to see you happy.  Truth is, I had thousands of accumulated raid points (DP) from all my raiding but refused to bid on a single item that ever dropped.  Call me stupid/foolish if  you want, but I didn't feel as if I had contributed to the raid.  To me, merely attending doesn't count for much.  We had 'buff bots' in EQ1 that did essentially the same thing.  You simply threw them on AF and drug them around with you... THAT'S how I felt/feel about raiding in EQ2 as an Illusionist.</p><p>Yes, I am very disappointed in the way SOE has dealt with my class in EQ2 with regards to raiding.</p><p> </p><p>Kailen</p>

[jun]

<div></div><p>"CC has never really been an important thing in EQ2. Its useful at times, but hardly on par with tanking, buffing, dps, healing etc."</p><p>Actually, after rereading your post, I picked this out because it seems to fit with SOE's mindset and one of the primary reasons we are still under the nerf bat.  Why do you THINK CC isn't on par with those?  I will give you a hint: "Target is too powerful..."  Sound familiar?  WHEN our skills are able to be utilized, the NEED for tanking/healing isn't as important with OUR ability to mitigate damage output from the mobs.  WE are one of the classes that PROVIDE avenues for 'x-goups'.  Not in the sense of darkie/lightie, but more like a non-plate tank, and a non-cleric combination.  SOE's greatest fear with our class is that we create anomolies within their holy trinity (tank/healer) concept.</p><p>I personally don't see us as over-empowered characters.  I see us as a solution to the tank/heal concept that dominates this game.  We "HAD" the abilities to make lesser tank classes exceptionally useful as well as lesser healing classes a boon.  We could take one of each and create a group that could perform JUST AS WELL as SOE's 'holy trinity' group... and it spooked them.  It spooked those classes as well.  You would see posts like, "Hey, I'm a plate tank and no one is asking me to tank" or "Hey, I'm a cleric and a druid gets an invite OVER ME!?"  Well, that's because there is an Illusionist in the group to help mitigate the damage the zone's mobs can deal out and we don't have to WAIT for you two any longer.</p><p>Is that so wrong?  I thought SOE's whole move towards a 'new combat system' and their efforts to 'rebalance classes' was to create ways for groups like that to thrive?</p><p> </p><p>Kailen</p>

[MrDiz]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>junzu wrote:  I want a REASON to go on a raid. </blockquote><p>No you dont. You want CC to be the reason to go on a raid.</p><p>There are plenty of reasons for illusionists to be invited to raid, you just dont like any of them. Thats a valid concern and im open to discuss it. I just dont see how they can implement CC to a level that will keep you happy without totally revamping combat.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">04-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:54 PM</span></p>