Think twice about Perpetuality.

[stonedemon]

<div></div>I just got the Perpetuality skill from the Agility AA line. I'm noticing a pretty major problem with it. It's a passive skill that procs a cast speed buff every time you cast a spell. The problem is that it seems to be triggered by my own group buffs. When I cast a group buff in a full group I get all 5 icons at once. The biggest problem with this is that when you run out and back in range of your group members it triggers again, breaking invis. Of course this can't be turned off so to have a reliable invis you need to drop all group buffs or leave your group.Just thought I would give out this warning since it costs money to respec AA and who knows when it will be fixed.<div></div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><p>Well, that's pretty daft.</p><p>Let's hope we can get it fixed.</p>

[Nupr]

<div>A lot of classes are having problems with spells proccing when you enter and exit range of people while sustaining group buffs.   It's not just Perpetuality, but non-offensive spell procs going off as well.  I hear a bunch of priests complaining about their godking weapons proc'ing from group buffs and then breaking invis.</div><div> </div><div>But speaking of the agility line, I haven't seen anyone complain but the T3 agility line, lowers recast timers by 4% per rank. It appears to do absolutely nothing.  All my recast timers are the same.  When a troub casts Jester's Cap on me I can definitely see that effect but no love with my AA.</div>

[Fizwi]

Surprise!  The ability doesn't say <i>recast </i>timers, it says <i>recovery </i>timers!  You know...that .5 sec delay after you cast a spell, before you can cast another spell?  You can get that sucker down to .3 sec!<span>:smileymad:I, too, am [Removed for Content].  Back in beta there was a recast timer reducer AA; it was easily my favorite.</span><div></div>

[Pins]

<div>Soo, when you need to invis, what do you do?  Equip an offhand!</div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div>Soo, when you need to invis, what do you do?  Equip an offhand!</div><hr></blockquote>Hmm, well I'd still say it's a bug but, very good idea for a workaround.  Has this been tested?

[Pins]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Belizarius wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div>Soo, when you need to invis, what do you do?  Equip an offhand!</div><hr></blockquote>Hmm, well I'd still say it's a bug but, very good idea for a workaround.  Has this been tested?<hr></blockquote>Yes, and it's not a bug.  You're casting your buffs on somebody else, it sees you doing that, so perputality goes off.  If you have a secondary equipped, perpuality will never go off.

[Nupr]

<div>Doh.  Guess I should read more carefully.  Thanks Fizwick.  Back to the stamina / wisdom line I go.</div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div>Yes, and it's not a bug.  You're casting your buffs on somebody else, it sees you doing that, so perputality goes off.  If you have a secondary equipped, perpuality will never go off.<hr></blockquote><p>Your buffs may be landing on someone, but you're not actually <em>casting</em> them when this happens.  To say you are 'casting' is a moderately silly way of looking at it I think.</p><p>To follow your faulty reasoning to its conclusion, equipping a symbol <em>should make no difference</em>.  Because 'casting' a buff should <em><strong>itself</strong> </em>should cause invis to break, not just the perpetuality proccing.  But that's not what happens.</p><p>It's a bug!</p>

[Manyak]

<div><em>technically</em>, yes u are casting. because group buffs are treated, on the code level, like procs. take prismatic havoc for example.....it procs on some1 else's attack, yet its still YOU casting each proc. group buffs work the same way.....YOU cast the spell, which procs on a group member (including yourself) whenever he/she is in range. this is why when some1 cancels a group buff from their spell effects window it still stays on the rest of the group...they r only cancelling their own proc.</div><div> </div><div>to change it needs a whole rewrite of how group buffs are coded.</div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>"<strong>5.  Perpetuality </strong><font color="#33cccc"><font color="#ffffff">-- Each <strong>spell you cast</strong> speeds your next few casts by <font color="#33ccff">12%</font>.  Stacks up to 5 times, effect expires if no spell is cast for 2-3<font color="#ffffff"> sec.  </font><font color="#ffffff">No longer bugged"</font></font></font></p><p>Maybe they have implemented group buffs as procs like you say, but so what?  From a gameplay perspective, I am <em><strong>not</strong> </em>casting a spell when a group member comes in range of my buff, that is an artefact of the implementation.</p><p>And furthermore that still doesn't explain, if moving into my buff range counts as me casting a spell for proc purposes, <em>why doesn't that action break invis</em> itself, regardless of whether you have Perpetuality enabled or not?</p><p>To be consistent, either having a party member move into buff range should <em>always</em> break invis, or it should <em>never</em> cause or trigger invis to break.</p><p>This is a bug!  Even if it is entrenched in the way group buffs are implemented, the behaviour is still wrong!</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:08 PM</span></p>

[Pins]

<div>Yes, you are casting it on somebody else.  Somebody goes to 55m away from you, your buffs drop.  When they come back in range, you effectively "recast" it on them.  If you did not, they would not be getting the buff again.</div><div> </div><div>Also why shouldn't equipping a symbol matter?  You have to have your secondary slot free to have perpetuality working.  If you don't, it won't go off, and thus, you have no problems!</div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div>Yes, you are casting it on somebody else.  Somebody goes to 55m away from you, your buffs drop.  When they come back in range, you effectively "recast" it on them.  If you did not, they would not be getting the buff again.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't recast anything.  They move back into the range of my group buff.  It costs me no power, takes me no time, cannot be interrupted.  My character could be asleep, or mezzed, or stunned and they would still get the buff.   I think you're still confusing <em>gameplay</em> with <em>implementation</em>.</p><p>If you really believe that bizarre reasoning, then  I ask again, why does this break invis <em>only if I have Perpetuality as well</em>?  Think about what you are saying.  You say I'm passively  'casting' a spell <em>which does not break invis</em> but which procs another spell <em>which does break invis</em>.   What's more, the buff which doesn't break invis when someone moves into range, does break invis if I cast it from scratch, however, as does pretty much every other spell in my books!   That is not consistent or logical at all.</p><p>You're drilling down below the player's view into the implementor's realm to explain a piece of bizarre behaviour.  If we want to drill down far enough, everything we do is just toggling electrical charges on a piece of silicon, which depending on your viewpoint is either totally magical or totally non magical...    :smileywink:</p><p>It matters because swapping items in and out just to work around a bug is tedious, and also because it reduces my capabilities if we enter combat unexpectedly while invis.</p><p>At very least, I should be able to have the ability on a toggle.  But really, buff renewals due to range shouldn't proc Perpetuality.  It's just ... silly.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:25 PM</span></p>

[shenker]

Belizarius you are right. Folks are getting the 2 confused and thinking it's ok for us to just deal with it instead of wanting it to be fixed. If I go out of range or others do when they come back I am NOT recasting it. It's like an aura around me and always in effect therefore I am not recasting anything. It's not my problem that they didn't implement things right since it's their job to fix it and not mine. <div></div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><p>Exactly (Eureka)!</p><p>If the automatic renewal of a group buff when a party member comes into range is <em><strong>supposed</strong> </em>to count as casting, and trigger Perpetuality, then the group buff renewal should <em><strong>also</strong> </em>break invis, regardless of whether you have Perpetuality or not.</p><p>But it doesn't.</p><p>Why?</p><p>Because renewal of a buff due to range was never <em><strong>meant</strong> </em>to count as casting from a player's perspective, that's just the under-the-hood mechanism.</p><p>The fact that it triggers perpetuality is a bug.</p>

[Thro]

<div></div>Very well said Belizarius. A "bug" is defined NOT by whether a certain part of code is working and is consistent with other parts of code. A bug is defined as when your progam's end behavior is not doing what you intended it to do, and it is clear the devs never intended for moving in and out of group buffs range to constitute "casting a spell."