Mana flow, CHANGED! w00t

[Pins]

<div>Well, it's changed, which is great news.</div><div> </div><div>Here's the spiffy:</div><div> </div><div>- Enchanter: Mana Flow can be cast on you or allies in a raid, no longerhas the under 10% power requirement, had its reuse increased to 60seconds, has a 30 second duration, causes the enchanter to sacrifice 5%health/power, it will give the enchanter and ally a 5% power gain uponexpiration.</div><div> </div><div>So, we lose 5% health/power and give an ally 5% power gain upon expiration, wait a second, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] does that mean?</div>

[Barobra]

<div></div><div>I have no idea what that means.</div><div> </div><div>I assume it means you lose 5% health/power....when it expires after 30 seconds it gives you and your ally 5% power.</div>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote: So, we lose 5% health/power and give an ally 5% power gain upon expiration, wait a second, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] does that mean?<hr></blockquote>I'm wondering this as well. Do you just cannibalize yourself, wait 30 seconds, and then you both gain power, or is there some power transfer going on inbetween? Either way, why would you ever cast it on yourself? These are all easily answerable with a screenshot from Test, of course, but I must do work on weekdays. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[dpizzle4]

Finally,It isnt amazing but it is 1000% times better than the old one and I will take it. I hope they keep it like this or make it better and not renerf it.  O well we shall see.Dankronic aka Darkillusion63 Illusionist KithicorThe Illuminati<div></div>

[Tuleri]

<div>Is this like the Wizzy power pump?  If so, it sounds good to me. </div><div> </div><div>Wonder if it can be cast only on groupies or accross raid?</div>

[Barobra]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tulerine wrote:<div>Is this like the Wizzy power pump?  If so, it sounds good to me. </div><div> </div><div>Wonder if it can be cast only on groupies or accross raid?</div><hr></blockquote>- Enchanter: Mana Flow can be cast on you or allies in a raid

[Impetus]

<blockquote><hr>WAPCE wrote:<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote: So, we lose 5% health/power and give an ally 5% power gain upon expiration, wait a second, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] does that mean?<hr></blockquote>I'm wondering this as well. Do you just cannibalize yourself, wait 30 seconds, and then you both gain power, or is there some power transfer going on inbetween? Either way, why would you ever cast it on yourself? These are all easily answerable with a screenshot from Test, of course, but I must do work on weekdays. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I wonder if you cast it on yourself, if you'll get 10% back after 30 sec?Anyway, a hopeful thumbsup from me. Sounds useful, finally.

[Pins]

<div>So, we went from GREAT at the end of beta, to crap, to the new ultimate crap.</div><div> </div><div>People don't need power in 30 seconds.  They need power when they go OOP, not 30 seconds AFTER they go OOP.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Mana%20Flow.JPG"><img src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Mana%20Flow2.JPG"><img src="http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Mana%20Flow3.JPG"></div><div> </div><div>I had 20hp, and 26power when I took the screenshot as a Level 1 Illusionist for the new and "improved" one.  The other ones, I was Level 70 at the time of both.  So, hrm, well seems nice, I guess, kinda sorta?</div>

[Impetus]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div>So, we went from GREAT at the end of beta, to crap, to the new ultimate crap.</div><div></div><div>People don't need power in 30 seconds. They need power when they go OOP, not 30 seconds AFTER they go OOP.</div><hr></blockquote>True, but if you know who is going to go OOP, you can cast it, then they'll get power later when they start needing it.In fact, you could conceivably pre-cast this before a fight and regen your health and power before battle, then mid-way through the fight you and your target will get a nice 5% boost.And hooray for cross-raid + not having a 5m range! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Also thanks for posting the picture. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Impetus on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:16 PM</span></p>

[Barobra]

<div></div>Why the heck is 4 power for a single target so overpowering anyway? I guess if we had 10 enchanters in a raid the MT could get 40 power total? Even that wont trivialize anything.

[Fizwi]

Yay, marginal raid utility!Oh well, my grand plans of using mana flow + siphon + manastone in conjunction with Volitile Magic are dashed!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Impetus]

<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div>Why the heck is 4 power for a single target so overpowering anyway? I guess if we had 10 enchanters in a raid the MT could get 40 power total? Even that wont trivialize anything.<hr></blockquote>That's what I don't understand either. Why go through the work of changing this, for... what the third time now since the end of beta?And I'm not sure how it could have been overpowering because there's a regen cap.

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Impetus wrote:<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div>So, we went from GREAT at the end of beta, to crap, to the new ultimate crap.</div><div></div><div>People don't need power in 30 seconds. They need power when they go OOP, not 30 seconds AFTER they go OOP.</div><hr></blockquote>True, but if you know who is going to go OOP, you can cast it, then they'll get power later when they start needing it.In fact, you could conceivably pre-cast this before a fight and regen your health and power before battle, then mid-way through the fight you and your target will get a nice 5% boost.<hr></blockquote>Yeah, since we get the power we spent back anyway, it seems like a nice always-cast type spell for raids and a few nameds to me. It's not a straight power transfer, but given that we have no cross-group power dump spell to begin with, I won't complain.

[zit]

<div></div><p>i like it.</p><p>sure 30 seconds are a bit long, its not an emergency skill like sorcerer power feeding.</p><p>but its a toy to play with. cast it before pull. use it prophylactical. think about who might need power the most, etc.</p><p>the original steady power transfer was just another passive buff we could have put on and go afk. everything that requires me a more active role on raids is very welcome to me.</p><p> </p>

[Pins]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Impetus wrote:<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div>Why the heck is 4 power for a single target so overpowering anyway? I guess if we had 10 enchanters in a raid the MT could get 40 power total? Even that wont trivialize anything.<hr></blockquote>That's what I don't understand either. Why go through the work of changing this, for... what the third time now since the end of beta?And I'm not sure how it could have been overpowering because there's a regen cap.<hr></blockquote>The mana flow in beta applied outside of the regen cap as it doesn't add to the In-Combat Regen "skill".

[Hirebra]

Can you just right-click the spell in the Maintained Spells window and cancel it to "Terminate" it early? Heh.<div></div>

[Flipmode]

<div></div>Wow how far we have fallen.  We have been [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on so long, that they toss a half-[Removed for Content] bone our way and we get happy.  Even this changed ability is crap.  Ill take the old wizzy mana pump over this crap.

[Imokles]

From today's test update notes:- Enchanter: Mana Flow's percentage has been changed to 10%.<div></div>

[Dufre]

<div></div><div>I now believe they listen to us</div><div></div><blockquote><hr><div>Dufrest wrote on 3/8</div><div>What I would like is for it to be a mana transfer with a 15 min recast to give 20% of your power to a raid member.  This would make the spell useful and inline with what you would expect from enchanters.</div><hr></blockquote><div><u><font color="#800080"><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=8680#M8680">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=8680#M8680</a></font></u><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=8680#M8680"></a></div><div> </div><div>I personally like the change.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Dr_Cyr]

<div></div>WHo knows?Whatever the case is, Im just glad to see them go with something that gives power to our group or raid, and can be recast with a reasonable percentage based gain.And it does beat the broken one they gave us at KoS launch. 30 sec timer, 1 minute recast. 10% of MAX power.As a coercer in mid 60s that works out to almost 60 power a minute.  1 per second.  Not bad considering it does not count against their regen cap, and we BOTH get the power.Its nto a game breaker, nor a "must have" (if it were a choice).  But its good enough and a heck of a lot better than the junk we have now, and more useful than the AAs some other classes got for their intro.I say thank you and pray they dont change it further.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Dr_Cyrus on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:54 PM</span></p>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Flipmode wrote:<div></div>Wow how far we have fallen. We have been [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on so long, that they toss a half-[Removed for Content] bone our way and we get happy. Even this changed ability is crap. Ill take the old wizzy mana pump over this crap.<hr></blockquote>If you're expecting an achievement ability, especially the <b>entry</b> ability, to be as good as a real spell on ANY class, I think you're in for a lot of disappointment.

[Manyak]

<div></div><div>This is one of the very few changes im happy with. Sure it can be made more powerful, but it doesn't need to be. Having u AND some1 else in the raid get 600-800 mana each minute isn't something to sneeze at...its even more than epiphany M2.</div>

[Aedos]

<div>Looks great to me 10% of for example 5k power 500 power for "free". Heck even our m2 Epiphany only gives 420 power per min.</div>

[nithrill]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aedosen wrote:<div>Looks great to me 10% of for example 5k power 500 power for "free". Heck even our m2 Epiphany only gives 420 power per min.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Its not for free ...</p><p>... the <strong><font color="#ffff00">net result </font></strong>is a 10% loss of our hp and a 10% power increase for the recipient, with a 0% change in our power.</p>

[Pins]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>nithrill wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aedosen wrote:<div>Looks great to me 10% of for example 5k power 500 power for "free". Heck even our m2 Epiphany only gives 420 power per min.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Its not for free ...</p><p>... the <strong><font color="#ffff00">net result </font></strong>is a 10% loss of our hp and a 10% power increase for the recipient, with a 0% change in our power.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes it is for free.</p><p>We get 10% power back too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Even if it costs 10%hp/10% power to cast at the start.  Cast it before the pull, you'll have regen'd most of it before the fight starts, then you'll get the 10% power for free, while the other person does too.</p>

[nithrill]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>nithrill wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aedosen wrote:<div>Looks great to me 10% of for example 5k power 500 power for "free". Heck even our m2 Epiphany only gives 420 power per min.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Its not for free ...</p><p>... the <strong><font color="#ffff00">net result </font></strong>is a 10% loss of our hp and a 10% power increase for the recipient, with a 0% change in our power.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes it is for free.</p><p>We get 10% power back too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Even if it costs 10%hp/10% power to cast at the start.  Cast it before the pull, you'll have regen'd most of it before the fight starts, then you'll get the 10% power for free, while the other person does too.</p><hr></blockquote><p>-10% hp doesn't look free to me.</p><p>... aside from that you only have a window of 8.5 seconds to cast the ability for that 10% "free" power:</p><ul><li>one has to be at 100% as when combat begins ( above 90% gives you a possible gain less than 10% ( x% - 90% ) )</li><ul><li>This means at least 2 ticks before a pull or 12 sec ( 4% / tick out-of-combat + drink + items + spells )</li></ul><li>one has to be at less than 90% when the ability expires ( otherwise the gain is = 100% - x% < 10% )</li><ul><li>one has also to overcome ones own regen</li></ul></ul><p>As an example a Coercer@70,w/m1 regens = 63+ / tick ( 8 + 14 + 41 + items ).</p><p>The average power cost for Coercer spells is around 160, the average casting time is around 2 sec and all spells have a recovery time of 0.5 sec.</p><p>So, on the average, a Coercer with full regen ( 63+ / tick ) will have to button mash from the beginning of combat for 9.5 sec before his power is at 90% ( 8 sec if we ignore recovery times ), leaving 8.5 sec left ( assuming he activated the ability 12 sec before entering combat ).</p><p>Meaning that the window of opportunity is from 21.5 sec before combat to 12 sec before combat.</p><p>Any sooner and one won't be at 100% power when entering combat ... any later and one will not be at 90% power when ability expires.</p><p>A window for some gain is 28 sec to 6 sec before combat ( 1% gain at 28 and ~5% at 6 sec ).</p><p>In my mind having to time the casting of an ability in this manner is not free either.</p><p>P.S.</p><p>Note that using the ability out-of-combat only eats hp as the net power gain is 0%, unless ofcourse one will be allowed to cast it on oneself when it hits life.</p><p>Edit: Just removed double statement about hp loss.</p><p>Message Edited by nithrill on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:20 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by nithrill on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:20 PM</span></p>

[Dr_Cyr]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Sounds like you're min-maxing to an almost extreme degree to create a way that you can say that the 10% gain-back is messed up and useless.  This is not an end-all do-all be-all for the class, its a nice added ability that complements the Chanters, both Coercers and Illusionists.  To say it has any less utility because of some pre-combat casting costs you the full gain-back is a bit petty and overreaching I think.Or do I minsderstand your post above?Pre-combat will not be the only time its cast, and on raids or high level content this will be a good addition - especially for long fights where the MT or a key healer tends to run low on power.  For example, some of those ^^^ heroics in KoS have very large HPs which makes for LONG single group fights, like in the Nest. And if youa re doing that with, say, a monk as MT, he/she can chow power down like nobody's business because they need to spam expensive taunts.  Or grouped with a a necro, that 10% of your max is going to look very sweet later in the fight if he's running a tank pet, healing it and trying to nuke, and you get a the power back to sun right as he gets it to heal his pet, etc.Its probalby quite situational.  Then agian so are we, from a Cercer point of view,  you have to be very aware of the situation and which spells to use: stuns, reactives, debuffs, pet, mezzes, DOT, etc.  And to a similar extent Illusionists are situational classes as well.  This AA fits with us being situational without the extreme limits the previous one put on us.  In that way, this seems to be even more fitting to Chanters than the original Chanter AA from beta.So the AA in this form has a lot of possibilities for utility.  None of them vital, none of the game breaking, none that make nearly the difference that our full suite of spells do at high level and Ad3-Master quality.  But definitely noticable, and worth knowing and using at all levels that you have this.In short, they did it right, and after gnawing on Sony about this for a few weeks, I say thanks, so long as they dont mess it up any further.<p>Message Edited by Dr_Cyrus on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:19 PM</span></p>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div>Why the heck is 4 power for a single target so overpowering anyway? I guess if we had 10 enchanters in a raid the MT could get 40 power total? Even that wont trivialize anything.<hr></blockquote><p>No.</p><p>The original AA (which I will term manaflow 1.0) was 4 power <strong>every second</strong>, which translates to 24/tick regen.  This is quite substantial, and probably rather more powerful than a lot of the other class entry AAs.  It also lasted until cancelled.</p><p>The problems with mana flow 2.0 were that it was on the one hand almost impossible to use at all, and either worthless or harmful when you did.  Springing it on us at the last minute just added insult to injury.</p><p>The latest (Mana flow 3.0) is both usable, and potentially beneficial without being overpowering.  That puts it more or less in line with the other class entry AAs, so I am more or less happy with the outcome.  I don't have a problem predicting 30 seconds in advance which ally might need a little mana boost.    I might even use this one.  My thanks to the devs for getting it 'right' now.</p><p>Now if only we could get similar attention to at least some of our other longer standing complaints, I might be a very happy player again.</p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:27 PM</span></p>

[nithrill]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dr_Cyrus wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Sounds like you're min-maxing to an almost extreme degree to create a way that you can say that the 10% gain-back is messed up and useless.  This is not an end-all do-all be-all for the class, its a nice added ability that complements the Chanters, both Coercers and Illusionists.  To say it has any less utility because of some pre-combat casting costs you the full gain-back is a bit petty and overreaching I think.Or do I minsderstand your post above?<p>... snip ...</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, definately a missunderstanding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... I happen to like the new version ... and think it will be very useful, especially on raids.</p><p>My only point was that I simply don't feel it is giving us power for free.</p>

[Impetus]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Belizarius wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div>Why the heck is 4 power for a single target so overpowering anyway? I guess if we had 10 enchanters in a raid the MT could get 40 power total? Even that wont trivialize anything.<hr></blockquote><p>No.</p><p><font color="#66ff00">The original AA (which I will term manaflow 1.0) was 4 power </font><font color="#66ff00"><strong>every second</strong></font><font color="#66ff00">, which translates to 24/tick regen. This is quite substantial, and probably rather more powerful than a lot of the other class entry AAs. It also lasted until cancelled.</font></p><p>The problems with mana flow 2.0 were that it was on the one hand almost impossible to use at all, and either worthless or harmful when you did. Springing it on us at the last minute just added insult to injury.</p><p>The latest (Mana flow 3.0) is both usable, and potentially beneficial without being overpowering. That puts it more or less in line with the other class entry AAs, so I am more or less happy with the outcome. I don't have a problem predicting 30 seconds in advance which ally might need a little mana boost. I might even use this one. My thanks to the devs for getting it 'right' now.</p><p>Now if only we could get similar attention to at least some of our other longer standing complaints, I might be a very happy player again.</p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>True, but it also took that away from us. It wasn't like a free 24/tick.Anyway, version 3.0 is more interesting than either of the first two, and I like it.

[Belizarius]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Impetus wrote:<div></div>True, but it also took that away from us. It wasn't like a free 24/tick.<hr></blockquote><p>True, it wasn't free.  But by going a bit easy on our own spells, our regen would more than cover it, indefinitely.  Anyway the main point was to highlight, that 4 power per second is actually a significant buff.</p><p>I kind of wonder if the whole point of the 2.0 variant, was so that we'd be happy instead of grumpy when they gave us the 3.0?</p>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Belizarius wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Impetus wrote:<div></div>True, but it also took that away from us. It wasn't like a free 24/tick.<hr></blockquote><p>True, it wasn't free.  But by going a bit easy on our own spells, our regen would more than cover it, indefinitely.  Anyway the main point was to highlight, that 4 power per second is actually a significant buff.</p><p>I kind of wonder if the whole point of the 2.0 variant, was so that we'd be happy instead of grumpy when they gave us the 3.0?</p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree the 3.0 version is defintally better and more usefull then the 2.0 version.</p><p>Yes Belizarius,  SoE has a history of nerfing the hell out of an ablity and then readjusting to a more apporperaite level (just a general statement  from my time spent playing eq1 and swg as well as eq2)   I won't go so far as to say that they do this  intentionally, but this does seem to be the patern demonstrated with overnerfing.   A power/skill/spell is too powerfull so it gets nerfed drastically,  to which people complain loudly, after further review the power/skill/spell is reblanced again to a more approperate level which quites the complains and often leads to rejoycing over what should have been the orginal fix (which is still usually a nerf to the orginal power/skill/spell). </p><p> Maybe its just that its difficult to get it right on the first try, I dont know.  Maybe its because they really do like to introduce perminate fixes in this mannor so that they ultimately seem like a fix and not a nerf.  :smileywink:</p><p>Message Edited by Azamien-Dermorate on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:51 PM</span></p>

[Impetus]

<blockquote><hr>Azamien-Dermorate wrote:<p>I agree the 3.0 version is defintally better and more usefull then the 2.0 version.</p><p>Yes Belizarius, SoE has a history of nerfing the hell out of an ablity and then readjusting to a more apporperaite level (just a general statement from my time spent playing eq1 and swg as well as eq2) I won't go so far as to say that they do this intentionally, but this does seem to be the patern demonstrated with overnerfing. A power/skill/spell is too powerfull so it gets nerfed drastically, to which people complain loudly, after further review the power/skill/spell is reblanced again to a more approperate level which quites the complains and often leads to rejoycing over what should have been the orginal fix (which is still usually a nerf to the orginal power/skill/spell).</p><p>Maybe its just that its difficult to get it right on the first try, I dont know. Maybe its because they really do like to introduce perminate fixes in this mannor so that they ultimately seem like a fix and not a nerf. :smileywink:</p><p>Message Edited by Azamien-Dermorate on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:51 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I've noticed this as well, and was thinking of writing an article about it at one point for a friend's site. It does seem a little paranoid, considering all the extra work that would have to be done in order to implement such a strategy. Who can say for sure? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<div>well to play devil's advocate here (or master consipiracy theroist) ...</div><div> </div><div>By grealy nerfing an ablity and then improving it to a reasonable standard later on people see the improvment to a reasonable standard as a fix or granting of power so they stop complaing about the absurdly broke/nerfed ablity.</div><div> </div><div>If SoE had just nerfed the ablity to a reasonable level from the get go there are some on these fourms that are just going to grumble about the nerf ... even though the nerf was reasonable within the balacing of the class.  And since they got it "right" on the first go and hence have no need to fix it more, people can grumble and complain about it for months and years to come.</div><div> </div><div>in this particular instance if we had gone from Mana Flow 1.0 to Mana Flow 3.0 without having been thru the supper worthless 2.0 version then it would have been seen as a nerf and would be one that would be unlikely to get changed again.  So we the enchanter community would be complaing about that forever.    As it is now we complained really loudly and hard for a few weeks but now will see the 3.0 as being much better then 2.0.   The general consencus seems to be that 3.0  is making the ablity more usefull now and one that will most likely get used atleast occasionally (as opposed to now).  </div><div> </div><div>Its human nature I guess that is reflected in this that because it seems like they are giving us something back that we are now content ... had they just gone from 1.0 to 3.0 then even though the end result was the same to us it would feel like we lost something and hence have reason to moan and complain about it.</div><div> </div><div>So now I guess the real question is SoE really doing this to tricky us psychologically into being satisfied with what ends up being a balanced ablity after the nerf and then corresponding fix.  Or does it really take a few trys to figure out where the balance factor is between too good, and not good enough.  My guess is that there is a little of both going on.  </div>

[Sadaro]

This is a major improvement over mana flow 2.0.If you know someone's going to go low on power, start casting it early and cast it often.  Granted, this spell is only useful for long combats (raids, some named) and fast grinding groups.  Fortunately, it's not too hard to get involved in either situation.I regularly group with a paladin, and he's always going full speed in the dungeons.  Because he's always pulling and using his spells, he's regulary at 20% power while everyone else is hovering at 50%-100%.  This spell lets me keep his mana up between 15 minute mana cloaks.  I figure we'll be able to go through mobs 10% faster just because we won't have to stop for mana breaks.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore<div></div>

[Fizwi]

How good it is compared to the original Beta version really depends on the power pool of recipient.  I have about 5k power, so 10% every minute: 500/60 sec = 8.3 power/sec (not that I can use it on myself, heh).  On someone with only 2500 power, that's 4.15 power/sec...hmm...that's still better than the 4 mana/sec from the Mana Flow 1.0!  Of course, the costs are different.  I do love the creativity of this version, however.  All in all I approve.<div></div>

[Barobra]

<div><blockquote><hr>Belizarius wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<div></div>Why the heck is 4 power for a single target so overpowering anyway? I guess if we had 10 enchanters in a raid the MT could get 40 power total? Even that wont trivialize anything.<hr></blockquote><p>No.</p><p>The original AA (which I will term manaflow 1.0) was 4 power <strong>every second</strong>, which translates to 24/tick regen.  This is quite substantial, and probably rather more powerful than a lot of the other class entry AAs.  It also lasted until cancelled.</p><p>The problems with mana flow 2.0 were that it was on the one hand almost impossible to use at all, and either worthless or harmful when you did.  Springing it on us at the last minute just added insult to injury.</p><p>The latest (Mana flow 3.0) is both usable, and potentially beneficial without being overpowering.  That puts it more or less in line with the other class entry AAs, so I am more or less happy with the outcome.  I don't have a problem predicting 30 seconds in advance which ally might need a little mana boost.    I might even use this one.  My thanks to the devs for getting it 'right' now.</p><p>Now if only we could get similar attention to at least some of our other longer standing complaints, I might be a very happy player again.</p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>After posting this I had re-read the ORIGINAL mana flow and agree if this stacked or even if it did not stack it would be over-powering. I like the new version better.</div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fizwick wrote:How good it is compared to the original Beta version really depends on the power pool of recipient.  I have about 5k power, so 10% every minute: 500/60 sec = 8.3 power/sec (not that I can use it on myself, heh).  On someone with only 2500 power, that's 4.15 power/sec...hmm...that's still better than the 4 mana/sec from the Mana Flow 1.0!  Of course, the costs are different.  I do love the creativity of this version, however.  All in all I approve.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>When does the recast on this one start?  I thought it was after the spell expired, which would make it 90 seconds not 60 seconds, lowering those figures a bit.</p><p>Sorry my home Internet has been offline for a week so I can't test it myself right now...</p><p> </p><p>PS.  Let's not get too excited, until it gets beyond  test...</p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:36 PM</span></p>

[Fizwi]

You know, I dunno.  Some work one way, some the other.(and yes, /agree...and maybe a little /pray too)<div></div>

[Ardnahoy]

<div></div>I don't know... that stupid button is always grayed out so I have no idea what it does.

[Drus]

<div></div><p>I think this is a great change, and definately a step in the right direction.  I have so much power at the end of any encounters i really wish i could share it.  This ability will give me that option.</p><p> </p><p>Charizma</p><p>65 Illusionist</p><p>OoFM, Splitpaw</p>

[Fizwi]

For the record -- the recast starts from the time of cast, so you only need 2 enchanters to provide a target with an extra 20% of their power pool/minute.Diggin the change.<div></div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><p>Weird.  It's gone from being probably the worst entry AA of any class, to one of the better ones.</p><p>Sshh.  Don't tell anyone.  If it's deemed too good they'll probably nerf it again.</p>

[Mausie]

It's useful now!  Thank you so much, Devs, and all who feedbacked this and helped to get it changed!<div></div>

[Ebarel]

<div></div><p>still wondering as i couldnt find it yet, you all talk about 10% constantly but 10% of what? Is there anyone who knows that detail or all just guessing?</p><p> </p><p>so casting we lose 10% mana (of our actual or max?)  and 10% health (again, actual or max?)</p><p> </p><p>and after expiry both we get 10% (of what - actual, max or the amount we lost at casting?)  and target gets 10% mana (again, of what - actual their mana, max their mana or something of our mana?)</p><p> </p><p>I`d really like to see that cleared up a bit as i couldnt found any confirmed info on that yet.</p><p> </p><p>And of course it is better than 2.0 (although that was definitely not a difficult task) </p>

[Pins]

All % calculations are based on Max values, not current values. Soo you cast it, you lose 10% hp/power of MAX, 30 seconds later your target gains 10% power of MAX, and you gain 10% power of MAX.

[SunT]

<div>This is 100% better than the previous 2 options. </div><div> </div><div>I just want to point out one issue with Mana Flow and the Illusionist concept in general.</div><div> </div><div>Don't get me wrong, I love my Illsuionist now.  He is a big improvement and I actually enjoy playing him again. </div><div> </div><div>But by design, Mana Flow included, we are a walking contridiction to ourselves.  Our skills work against our other skills. </div><div> </div><div>For example...Our DPS comes from dots...our control comes from Mez...we cannot mez a dotted mob...so if you want to do dps then do control to a failing encounter...you are screwed, your own dots will break your attempt to mez.</div><div> </div><div>Mana flow takes 10% of my power to cast.  So I need a 10% reserve to use it.  However, when I watch the power bars of my raid group...I am always the lowest.  I burn faster than anyone else so if the tank needs the power... I am generally lower than him already.</div><div> </div><div>So essentially Mana Flow requires the guy with the lowest remaining power pool to give some of it to another person.</div><div> </div><div>As a matter of balance i can understand the conceptual intent.  I just find it irritating that SOE continues with the contridicting abilities all the way to 70.  I kind of thought they would have seen the issues in the 1-50 range and corrected it or at least limited to those currently standing abilities.  i am a bit suprised that at level 70 and into AA abilities I am still contradicting and conflicting with my self.</div><div> </div><div>The answer to this issue is to 'choose' what role to play.  I can either DPS or do Chanter stuff.  I don't know that this is a bad thing, in fact I may have actually posted it as a sugestion pre lu13.  I just find it an interesting observation.</div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div>...</div><div> </div><div>For example...Our DPS comes from dots...our control comes from Mez...we cannot mez a dotted mob...so if you want to do dps then do control to a failing encounter...you are screwed, your own dots will break your attempt to mez.</div><div> </div><div>Mana flow takes 10% of my power to cast.  So I need a 10% reserve to use it.  However, when I watch the power bars of my raid group...I am always the lowest.  I burn faster than anyone else so if the tank needs the power... I am generally lower than him already.</div><div>...</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>The business with DOTs is a conundrum, I guess I've gotten used to it.  If you're trying to mez the main target chances are someone <em>else</em> has a DoT on it as well anyway.  A lot of the time a long stun will give enough time to cancel DoTs and mez.</p><p>And I agree, it sure feels like our spells are not very power-efficient.  To balance our permanent mana regen it seems they made our spells more costly (pre-LU13 this felt very different), and I think they went too far.  For Mana Flow to be used on raids we need to manage our power consumption, or boost our personal regen.  I guess it creates a use for our cannibalise spell line...</p>