1 year (and a bit more) is passed......

[merkla]

<div>our class has been broken, made overpowered (only in dof beta tho), broken again</div><div>now im not gonna write again all of our issue, fizwik made a great post and evrything is written there,</div><div>we all know that is very annoying ot raid knowing that 80% of ur key spells cant be used VS epic encounter,</div><div> </div><div>i think soe realized that the chanter class is the second most broken class after the shadowknight</div><div> </div><div>im not asking to fix us now, but as a paying costumer(started in the 1996 with eq1) i have to know if our issue will be fixed, if u soe realized we have this problem and if u will work for it, or u have no idea how to menage it...</div><div>it is really annoying to get always the msg " ur target is too powerful" or to not even bother to manadrain cuz also the most dumb mob regen fasster then u can drain</div><div> </div><div>after 1 year of this silence i doubt ill get an official answer </div><div> </div><div>bot my hope is finishing and i think i need much more respect as paying costumer then this silence</div>

[Xanoth]

<div>think you hit the nail on the head as to why i will be moving to vanguard once its released...</div><div> </div><div>resepct.</div><div> </div><div>sigil seem quite happy to say "probably wont make it in for the launch" or "we're still working on ideas for that, so can't really give any hard info" ...</div><div> </div><div>i do enjoy eq2 more than any other MMO, and am really lookingforward to KoS (it took a lot to get me excited though, the AAs finally did the trick). but its SOE thats turning me away.</div><div> </div><div>out of curiosity... has anyone ever worked the other side of the fence, and been involved with development/production of a game for the PS2?  because having read the standards games need to "meet" to be published for their console, compared with the standards we get here is a joke.</div>

[NG23985_01]

<div>I do know that Enchanters of both subclasses need a bit of work, but I dont think my 48 Illusionist has that much trouble. Think back to EQ1 since you've been playing it since "1996", 3 years before the game was even realeased. In EQ1 there was no such thing as a Stifle spell (but a few mobs had a couple), and all raid bosses (that I'm aware of at least) were immune to stun and most often mezz too. In Planes of Power and higher expansions, even most 1-group monsters are immune to your common stun. (But not Mezz).</div><div> </div><div>I only raided a little bit with my EQ1 enchanter, and the *ONLY* thing I felt I was there for was buffs. Keep in mind, EQ2 enchanters have a lot more potential to do DPS than EQ1 Enchanters.I do acknowledge that Enchanters need work - but try to look at the bigger picture.</div>

[lik]

<div></div>Enchanters are crap, we all know it.........If  you  were a raid leader and  you  had 23 spots taken by all fighter's and  healer's..and  not one mage of any type...............to fill you last  spot  for that raid ..............do you take enchanter....or a warlock..or  wizard .... or .... conj  ....or  necro..... i would  take  the  Conj.......i like  "call of hero"     very usefull in raids.  PLEASE  use  one word answers.

[merkla]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>u right, NG23985,it was a mistyping,</p><p>i started to play in the 1998, and it was relased in 1998 (i cant forget cuz i bought it in Usa, and i have been in USA only once in my life)</p><p>and First, its true there werent stiffle but we had a load of more fun things (charm, slow good debuff)</p><p>second in raid mez were a lot useful, it is true that boss could be mezzed but u remember rathe council? or the rondo event?oh right u never raided in eq1</p><p>mobs were immune to stun, but not to root or mezz</p><p>a mob were immune to something or to something else but not to all</p><p>i can see i cant stiffle, mez root an epic boss... but what about manadrain?? why should i drain if it never drop from 99% power? and what u think? also epic trash should be iummune to all???</p><p>and yes our  buffs were great,  do u think our buffs are so good in eq2?</p><p>do u dont think that spellshield is pretty broken?</p><p> </p><p>chanter dps in eq1 were good, just need to rotate 2 high end nukes</p><p>prolly u should play a bit more and know better the chanter class....</p><p>and if DEvs make sticks a post were are listed all the chanter bugs,</p><p>prolly they realized there is some problem in this class, but what about post something here and tell us what will happen?? i cant play a game where if i upgrade a spell, 3 days after become useless and prolly , hoping, in 3 monthes become good again</p><p>that u give us abilityes (aka spellshield) and after u make it an useless spell, just make it raid castable and would change a lot but well im not gonan speak our bugs since ths sticky post is great and very well detailed</p><p>Message Edited by merklarx on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:11 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by merklarx on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:23 AM</span></p>

[NG23985_01]

<div></div><div>Wikipedia is offline at the moment, but I'm certain EverQuest was released in 1999, but that doesn't matter. This is EverQuest 2 - any EQ1 experience is irrelavent.Within the realm of EQ2, the Illusionist personae pet seems to be much more reliable than Charm, although it does need a bit of work. Why are you upset about not having a Slow? It wouldn't be useful for 95% of the player population. Most heroic encounters die within 30 seconds of being engaged, and debuffs of all kinds are miniscule against Heroic and lesser monsters. Furthermore, in EQ1, *EVERY* group needed a slower - that forced every single group to invite a Beastlord, Enchanter, or Shaman. In EQ2, there is no one subclass that is absolutely necessary.</div><div> </div><div>You're wrong in saying that I never raided in EQ1, and I dont really like your tone of voice in saying it the way you did. I raided fairly often in EQ1, and the vast majority of the time, the Enchanters were NOT attending the raid for mezz - they were there for buffs, and debuffs. I do remember lots monsters being mezzable, but not stunnable. There were also quite a few monsters that were immune to movement speed alteration effects (ex: root and snare).</div><div> </div><div>I dont know what your guild does, but my guild's Illusionist has never complained about being "useless" on a raid. Often he's in the group with us healers for those long fights where we really dont have enough DPS. His buffs are invaluable, and suprise suprise, he's actually fairly good at DPS too. Oh yea, you seem to cry about mezz not working on Epic targets, but the last time we took down the gardener (whatever his full, proper name is) in Al`Afaz, we needed out Illusionist's mezz. Not the raid boss, of course, but all the little frog adds that we accidentally got with the boss. Mezz useless on raids? What planet are you from? <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div>You seem to claim that EQ1 enchanters had good DPS via cycling 2 high level nukes. Perhaps enchanters could do DPS, but it paled in comparison to an EQ/AM3 Ranger, a Wizard, Magician, even Druids could outdps Enchanters' nukes easily.  In EQ2, Illusionists DPS is set beneath other Mages, but it's not *that* much lower. My illusionist alt is only 49, so not quite fit to raid, but I think I've learned fairly well how to play the class. I went to Permafrost with a friend's Swashbuckler alt, and I outdps'd him on 90% of all battles. Perhaps you should start looking at Illusionist as a DPS class - That's what I do, and I love my Illusionist alt - he's my favorite. Yes, I know there are quite a few spells that need worked on, but every class has those kind of spells. Look at Warlocks - they've got a few spells that just plain arent safe to cast because they pull all random adds in sight. (Netherous Realm, and to a lesser extent, Dark Infestation)</div><div> </div><div>EDIT: Added following example from a Permafrost fight parse...</div><div> </div><div>To help you envision Illusionist as a DPS class...</div><div>Example Fight: a lone triple-up arrow giant</div><div> </div><div>My Damage: 11,000</div><div>Swashbuckler's damage: 8,500</div><div> </div><div>Also, I was tanking - which means interrupts, and the occasional stun. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by NG23985_01 on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:37 AM</span></p>

[merkla]

<p>NG23985, u wroteWithin the realm of EQ2, the Illusionist personae pet seems to be much more reliable than Charm, although it does need a bit of work. Why are you upset about not having a Slow? It wouldn't be useful for 95% of the player population. Most heroic encounters die within 30 seconds of being engaged, and debuffs of all kinds are miniscule against Heroic and lesser monsters. Furthermore, in EQ1, *EVERY* group needed a slower - that forced every single group to invite a Beastlord, Enchanter, or Shaman. In EQ2, there is no one subclass that is absolutely necessary.</p><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">oki prolly i explained it bad, im not moaning or whining "chanter cant slow"  and im not moaning about coercers charm and we have a dopple... it his the new way soe want illusionist, i like how we work in group or solo and i like it, but a lot of teh good things we should do are broken(spellshield and manadrains), and slows and chamrs was only an example</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>You're wrong in saying that I never raided in EQ1, and I dont really like your tone of voice in saying it the way you did. I raided fairly often in EQ1, and the vast majority of the time, the Enchanters were NOT attending the raid for mezz - they were there for buffs, and debuffs. I do remember lots monsters being mezzable, but not stunnable. There were also quite a few monsters that were immune to movement speed alteration effects (ex: root and snare).</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff33">yes i was sarcastic about it, but the chanters were in the raid not only for the buffs but for the extra utility we was able to do (aka mez, slows when shammys had to focus more on healing, ecc ecc)</font></div><div><font color="#ffff33">in eq2 devs decided to make buffs work in a different way ok, im not here to speak aboutthe difference with eq1, was only a couple of example</font></div><div> </div><div>I dont know what your guild does, but my guild's Illusionist has never complained about being "useless" on a raid. Often he's in the group with us healers for those long fights where we really dont have enough DPS. His buffs are invaluable, and suprise suprise, he's actually fairly good at DPS too. Oh yea, you seem to cry about mezz not working on Epic targets, but the last time we took down the gardener (whatever his full, proper name is) in Al`Afaz, we needed out Illusionist's mezz. Not the raid boss, of course, but all the little frog adds that we accidentally got with the boss. Mezz useless on raids? What planet are you from? <img border="0" height="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif" width="16"></div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">what planet im from? have u ever raided PPtr? also trash mob are mez immune, to not speak about the well known useless of manadrain, stuns and stiffles.. mez cant be needed in that situation and someother yes.. but why trash mobs should be immune to mezzes?</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">i completely agree abou raid boss immune to mez, stuns... but why should be impossible to manadrain him???</font></div><div>You seem to claim that EQ1 enchanters had good DPS via cycling 2 high level nukes. Perhaps enchanters could do DPS, but it paled in comparison to an EQ/AM3 Ranger, a Wizard, Magician, even Druids could outdps Enchanters' nukes easily.  In EQ2, Illusionists DPS is set beneath other Mages, but it's not *that* much lower. My illusionist alt is only 49, so not quite fit to raid, but I think I've learned fairly well how to play the class. I went to Permafrost with a friend's Swashbuckler alt, and I outdps'd him on 90% of all battles. Perhaps you should start looking at Illusionist as a DPS class - That's what I do, and I love my Illusionist alt - he's my favorite. Yes, I know there are quite a few spells that need worked on, but every class has those kind of spells. Look at Warlocks - they've got a few spells that just plain arent safe to cast because they pull all random adds in sight. (Netherous Realm, and to a lesser extent, Dark Infestation)</div><div><font color="#ffff00">i never never cried about chanter dps i can out dps alot of classes and i can solo pretty well and in group chanter work really good.... but what make me mad is the COMLPLETELY silence we got since a lot of our spells are broken since relase of the game</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">and i never cared about dps in eq1 or eq2 but im sorry if u played a chanter in eq1 u cant say we had bad dps and i have still to see a druid that could out dps me...</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">in eq2 raid mobs my dps are really good but i dont care about dps as i said...</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>as u said, u are only 49 and u cant still see a lot of problem illusionists have, so, since i made this post only to show my disappoint about this terrible silence...</div><div>we are near LU20 and we still need to be fixed, i can udnerstand that we were overpowered after LU13, but all this nerf and specially the stealth nerf are driving me mad...</div><div>those are just 2 example</div><div>WHY give me a spellshield if it can work only in duels? </div><div>why keep this spell group castable only??</div><div> </div><div>i m not gonna write more about those things since, as i said,  luckly there are people like fizwik and pinski , suntsu and others who made great posts about this things and i dont feel i can add more writing em, since as u can see one post is stickied</div><div> </div><div>but i wanted to post my disappoint as a paying client since the beginning of this game that followed to eq2 and it seems they just keep ignore our class..if we were going as intended i would not say anything, but if u didnt realize (and at this point i really doubt u did) a lot of spells are BROKEN since relase and well at beginning situation was a lot worse....</div><div> </div><div>now pls get to 60, raid a bit, experince the class a bit (lot) more and u will feel what all the other raiding chanters feel.. aka "omg 70% of my spells dont work on epics", "omg why should a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] trash minotaur mob be immune to stiffle?"</div><div>and if u dont want to raid... "omg why is impossible to drain more then 20% of the manapool off any heroic mob also with all master I spells?"</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>this thread and what im saying is goin into another direction instead the one  i intended (<font color="#ff0033">aka we are still broken after 1year and no words from devs</font>), so i hope that now that i explained u more u understood wht i was complaining about, and i hope u unerstood that the eq1 references were only examples</div>

[NG23985_01]

<div>In PP:tR, during the encounter with the named gardener frog (again, i cant recall its name exactly) he has 2 (or 3?) linked triple-up arrow frogs. I stood there, healing the tank, as I *watched* our illusionist mezz those adds. Mezz animation played, then the mobs just stood there, motionless. I'd say that Mezz seems to work on trash like that. Also, the one tower with the borked door that you cant see through, and the big group of trash +++ harpies - as I recall, those were mezzable too.</div><div> </div><div>It's unlikely that I'll ever raid with my enchanter - my guild needs my Fury more, as we've only got a handful of healers as it is, but judging from my Illusionist's current spellbars...</div><div> </div><div>The following spell lines work on epics:Scorching Beam, Aneurysm, Wither Hope, Lobotomize, Prismatic Strife, Cerebral Tempest, Construct of Logic, Devitalizing Stare, Misfortune, and the proc from Dynamism. See a trend here? Practically all of these spells that *do* work on epics are damage spells.</div><div> </div><div>Yes, I *DO* acknowledge that Enchanters need some loving, but I do *NOT* think that Enchanters are quite as broken as some people make them out to be.  So many ask for "something" that works on Epic monsters, I say take a look at your spellbar, you've already got quite a few damage spells that will work. (Although I do acknowledge that Enchanter DPS needs a significant boost... Scorching Beam's damage should be doubled, and the damage from Aneurysm should be 3x of current, or so)</div><div> </div><div>Another thing... ever been in a fight with an epic that drains the MT's power? I've seen a couple of them, and how do they cope? One spell: Mana Cloak - otherwise raid would be impossible to do.</div>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div> </div><div>It's unlikely that I'll ever raid with my enchanter - my guild needs my Fury more, as we've only got a handful of healers as it is, but judging from my Illusionist's current spellbars...</div><div> </div><div>The following spell lines work on epics:Scorching Beam, Aneurysm, Wither Hope, Lobotomize, Prismatic Strife, Cerebral Tempest, Construct of Logic, Devitalizing Stare, Misfortune, and the proc from Dynamism. See a trend here? Practically all of these spells that *do* work on epics are damage spells.</div><div> </div><div>Yes, I *DO* acknowledge that Enchanters need some loving, but I do *NOT* think that Enchanters are quite as broken as some people make them out to be.  ...<hr></div></blockquote><p>yea nice. so you play a fury, a class that comes very close to illu damage potential. now just for one moment think of the following scenario. when fighing real epics (not the trash adds) the only spells that work for you would be</p><p>killing swarm, waterspout, bolt of storms, starnova, ring of fire, irritating swarm, beastly intimitation, thornskin, fae flames...</p><p>and for your other spells you would get the msg : <em>the target's damage is too powerful</em>. and thus cannot be healed with your spells, your heals simply do squat, have zero effect.</p><p>and then imagine the ranger coming to your boards and telling you that fury arent that broken as they make it out to be cause, hey, they still can use a lot of spells, can't they?</p><p> </p>

[merkla]

<div></div><div></div><p>so basicly im speaking with a fury that doesnt know the difference between PPtr and court of al afaz</p><p>im speaking with someone that can only list my spells that work and cant even realize when mez is useless (like the adds on the master gardener in courrt of alafaz) and will only slow down dps sicne basicly that frogs adds have 0 hps</p><p>btw if u wanted to tell me when mez is needed u could have brought as example the adds of bq...</p><p>so PLEASE stop answer and post on this trhead is the only reason u are doing it is to argue with me about things u dont know</p><p>and for the last time i wanted to say my disappoint about the SILENCE on a situation that is driving me mad</p><p>and not to argue with anyone specially now that i realzie u just never enjoyed the strugle chanter are in since relase and all the problems this class had before seeing a light at the end of the tunnel (aka LU13 : oki we were overpowered) btut now i see we are again in the dark...well not so dark as before LU13 but still need a BIG fix</p><p>Merklar D'knar 60 illusionist splitpaw (so if u want to speak with me and argue just send me tell in game and stop posting here)</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by merklarx on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:05 PM</span></p>

[Tuleri]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div>In PP:tR, during the encounter with the named gardener frog (again, i cant recall its name exactly) he has 2 (or 3?) linked triple-up arrow frogs. I stood there, healing the tank, as I *watched* our illusionist mezz those adds. Mezz animation played, then the mobs just stood there, motionless. I'd say that Mezz seems to work on trash like that. Also, the one tower with the borked door that you cant see through, and the big group of trash +++ harpies - as I recall, those were mezzable too.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff00ff">If your guild needs to mezz either of those, they need to seriously reconsider if they should even be in that zone.  Perhaps some T5 farming is in order.  Mezzing simply slows up the killing.</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Another thing... ever been in a fight with an epic that drains the MT's power? I've seen a couple of them, and how do they cope? One spell: Mana Cloak - otherwise raid would be impossible to do.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc00cc">I have yet to see ANY encounter where the raid would be "impossible to do" without Mana cloak.  Perhaps easier...but not impossible.  Again, if your guild cannot figure this out...well read my above statement</font></div><hr></blockquote><p>I hate to feed the trolls, but it is obvious many people are VERY frustrated about the lack off effort or even a response to the REAL issues chanters have.  Raid with your chanter, then come back and say something sensible if possible.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>EDIT: Looks like we are finally getting some LOVE from the Devs in these forums...I guess the little heart icons are a start</p><p>:smileytongue:</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Tulerine on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:21 PM</span></p>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tulerine wrote:<p>EDIT: Looks like we are finally getting some LOVE from the Devs in these forums...I guess the <font color="#ccff00">little heart icons</font> are a start</p><p>:smileytongue:</p><hr></blockquote>still waiting for the <font color="#ff6600">big heart icons</font> to stop by, those that come with the red colored names...  :smileysad:

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>merklarx wrote:i think soe realized that the chanter class is the second most broken class after the shadowknight</blockquote>ROLF <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Im just gonna go link this thread in the guardian forums to cheer them up a little. Then possibly every other forum with the 'worst class ever' ... which would be all of them <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[NG23985_01]

<div></div><div>Yes, yes, I meant Al`Afaz, not PPtR, but that's irrelavent - the encounter I was talking about is what was important.Just what is it that you want to be able to do to Epic bosses, mezz them? Stifle them? Make them do 0 damage by chain-stunning them? If that's the case, then it'll never happen - enchanters would be too powerful.</div><div> </div><div>As for what I do in epic fights as my Fury, i use only 4 spells: Elixir, Salve, Bloodflow and Back Into the Fray - i do NOT do any damage against epics because I'm too busy healing - most times I dont even bother to debuff because Fury's debuff is worthless. And any Illusionist who cant outdamage me is seriously slacking - Fury DPS is not so incredibly high like the other Priest community would like you to believe. By the way - I powerlevel with my Fury quite often, and if I were to TRY to outdamage my Level 49 Illusionist with my Level 60 Fury, I would be unsuccessful.Mezz is very situational, and against those epic bosses that are immune to it, the only thing that there is for you to do is use your damage spells. Is there something so terribly wrong with that? I dont raid with my Illusionist because he's an alt, but 95% of the spells I cast with him are damage spells, be it soloing or grouping, and it works quite well. If i were to raid with him, the spell set I use would not change a bit, except for not casting stun/stifle/mezz.</div><div> </div><div>As for the silence from SoE on these issues, you're not alone you know. Sorcerers have been broken since LU13, and there's not been a single word from the developers about their problems. Guardians and Shadowknights in particular, seem to have a lot of problems, and I've not heard of any Dev acknowledging their problems. Rangers have been incredibly overpowered for quite some time now (though I dont know exactly when it started), and the Dev's haven't even come forth to acknowledge that fact.</div><div> </div><div>Don't tell me to not post on the forums - I am obeying the forum rules, and I have the right to post here. I dont post to argue - I post to be objective, and to try to enlighten you to a different point of view, and maybe see that your class isnt totally worthless.</div><p>Message Edited by NG23985_01 on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:36 AM</span></p>

[merkla]

<div></div><div></div><div>NG23985_01 wrote</div><div> </div><div>Yes, yes, I meant Al`Afaz, not PPtR, but that's irrelavent - the encounter I was talking about is what was important.Just what is it that you want to be able to do to Epic bosses, mezz them? Stifle them? Make them do 0 damage by chain-stunning them? If that's the case, then it'll never happen - enchanters would be too powerful.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">did u ever red the posts from other illusionists?? do we ask to chain stiffle or stun an epic boss???</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">no we dont ask it we ask to make some of our broken spells like manadrain spellshield and company raid workable..</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">but it seems u cant understand it as u never had the pleasure to use em</font></div><div> </div><div>As for what I do in epic fights as my Fury, i use only 4 spells: Elixir, Salve, Bloodflow and Back Into the Fray - i do NOT do any damage against epics because I'm too busy healing - most times I dont even bother to debuff because Fury's debuff is worthless. And any Illusionist who cant outdamage me is seriously slacking - Fury DPS is not so incredibly high like the other Priest community would like you to believe. By the way - I powerlevel with my Fury quite often, and if I were to TRY to outdamage my Level 49 Illusionist with my Level 60 Fury, I would be unsuccessful.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">as u said u do ur main job when u raid : heal.. do i do mine my job when i raid ? i answer u NO.... im not a dps class and if u choose illusionist for dps u should have done something wrong...</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">what bout if ur best heal at lvl 60 could heal only  0.05% of main tank Hp bar? </font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">well is how manadrain work.... but i have no more words to try to explain it to ya....</font>Mezz is very situational, and against those epic bosses that are immune to it, the only thing that there is for you to do is use your damage spells. Is there something so terribly wrong with that? I dont raid with my Illusionist because he's an alt, but 95% of the spells I cast with him are damage spells, be it soloing or grouping, and it works quite well. If i were to raid with him, the spell set I use would not change a bit, except for not casting stun/stifle/mezz.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">u sure? try to raid and tell me when u will ever use drain thought or sapwill just to brng 2 examples</font></div><div> </div><div>As for the silence from SoE on these issues, you're not alone you know. Sorcerers have been broken since LU13, and there's not been a single word from the developers about their problems. Guardians and Shadowknights in particular, seem to have a lot of problems, and I've not heard of any Dev acknowledging their problems. Rangers have been incredibly overpowered for quite some time now (though I dont know exactly when it started), and the Dev's haven't even come forth to acknowledge that fact.</div><div><font color="#ffff00">i do know sorcerers are broken and they complain, i know guardians says they have been nerfed  so they can post and say their problem.. as i do..and idont think i need a fury that come here and try to explain me what i can do VS epics.. as u showing u know few things about this class... as i dont go on guardian forum and i say... "cmon guys u arent so broken u can do still a lot of things stop whiining".." "first cuz i dont think we are whining cuz we have been broken since relase..but it seems it isnt another thing u cant udnerstand...</font></div><div>Don't tell me to not post on the forums - I am obeying the forum rules, and I have the right to post here. I dont post to argue - I post to be objective, and to try to enlighten you to a different point of view, and maybe see that your class isnt totally worthless</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">did i ever say we are totally worthless??? i said we are BROKEN! and u cant put words i never said on my mouth..</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">we are near to be worthless in raid, cuz if we Should be there for our dps there is something wrong....</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">we are great in group andgood in solo but cmon, try some of our spells and u see there is something that should work differently (aka spellshield as example)</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">u try to enlight me telling me i shjould be happy cuz i can do better dps then broken sorcerors?</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">as i said chanter isnt a dps class and if in raid all we can do is dps..well there is really something wrong</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">so if u want to keep posting here just to answer me about things u dont know i ask u to stop.. and never said u dont respect the forums rules but u should understand when :</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">first u are derailing this thread (well since i step down and argue with ya im doing that too)</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">second did u know any other class broken from the beginning of this game? and if it exists they have all the rights to complain and ask for an official answer on well known bugs (a great post made STICKY show em all.. did u spent few imns reading it?)</font></div><p>Message Edited by merklarx on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:17 AM</span></p>

[MrDiz]

Some classes good in raids and groups. Some classes are great soloing and in small groups. Thats just how its always going to be. Illusionist are one of the best classes to have in any 6 man group, they solo well and they are in demand in raids (even if its just for power).People saying illusionist are broken are just out of touch with the game. They are possibly the least broken class out there. Even guardians who are probably the least well thought out and put together class in the game are not broken. The only class i would classify as broken right now is Carpenter.

[merkla]

<div></div><p>i dont think this dizzi,</p><p>i think enchanters are pretty broken cuz they dont do theyr role in raid</p><p>if u think a chanter should do dps and mana bot prolly we have a different way to look the class</p><p>but SoE says that chanters are master of counfound and befoundle and i dont feel as this in raid</p><p>in raid we are low dps (and dont tell me we can do more dps then wizzy cuz they broken too) and mana bots</p><p>i  am wondering what class u run during raid? or if u bot ur chanter cuz its the only way i can see u can say that we respect our role in raid</p><p>prolly is just me but if it is so i really feel that mana drain, spellshield first and stiffle second should be a different role in raid... and if we speak about manadrain i think they need a different role i ngroup too</p><p>at this point i ask if u never see a reflect from spellshield if u buff any scout in ur group or fighter (only when im in MT group and it happens only VS bq)</p><p>and as i said do u know any other class that have been struggling sicne the relase of the game? prolly only SK..but tell me if there is another</p>

[NG23985_01]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>merklarx wrote:<div></div><p>i dont think this dizzi,</p><p><font color="#66ff33">i think enchanters are pretty broken cuz they dont do theyr role in raid</font></p><p>if u think a chanter should do dps and mana bot prolly we have a different way to look the class</p><p>but SoE says that chanters are master of counfound and befoundle and i dont feel as this in raid</p><p>in raid we are low dps (and dont tell me we can do more dps then wizzy cuz they broken too) and mana bots</p><p>i  am wondering what class u run during raid? or if u bot ur chanter cuz its the only way i can see u can say that we respect our role in raid</p><p>prolly is just me but if it is so i really feel that mana drain, spellshield first and stiffle second should be a different role in raid... and if we speak about manadrain i think they need a different role i ngroup too</p><p>at this point i ask if u never see a reflect from spellshield if u buff any scout in ur group or fighter (only when im in MT group and it happens only VS bq)</p><p>and as i said do u know any other class that have been struggling sicne the relase of the game? prolly only SK..but tell me if there is another</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>The reason I post on the Illusionist forums, is because I have an Illusionist, level 49. Yes, he leaves a lot to be desired - lots of his spells need a little work, but its not *THAT* bad. I dont post anything on the guardian forums because i do NOT have a guardian, and thus do not know first-hand their issues. Also, as with the highlighted part above... what do you think Enchanter's role should be on a raid?</p><p>I play my Illusionist (Solo, and in group) with the mindset that I'm a DPS class, and it works pretty darn good, and its a LOT of fun. I've already said my Illusionist is my favorite alt to play - he's lots of fun. My guild usually puts one of each: Cleric, Druid, Shaman in the MT group, and the rest of the healers go to Group #2, along with our Illusionist. Do you know why? His power-regen is absolutely vital - he helps us healers do our jobs effectively. Do Enchanters (namely Illusionist) work correctly in regards to helping other people do THEIR jobs more effectively? The answer is a resounding "Yes!" Since you cant stun, stifle, or mezz epics, but you can debuff them, then the best thing that I can think of to do is Debuff, then focus on helping mow the monster down. True, Illusionists cant dish out damage like a Ranger, but Illusionist damage is quite noticable. I've already mentioned I can outdps my friend's Swashbuckler consistently.</p><p><strong>I do know Enchanters need some work - we are in agreement here!</strong> <strong>But you make it sound like Enchanters are good for <font color="#ff3333">absolutely nothing</font> while raiding, and that's just plain not true!</strong> Mana-Regen alone is incredibly useful, Dynamism/Haste are very handy for enhancing the damage of others (along with mana-regen), and the other thing that's left is damage - and though it's not the best damage, it's still useful. You know, my other L60 is my Warlock, and I'm very tempted to make my Illusionist my new main because he's more fun to play than my Warlock. My illusionist survives better, can do close to the same amount of damage <font color="#33ccff">as my Warlock did when he was that level</font>, and his buffs are better by leaps and bounds than my Warlock's.</p><p>EDIT: <font color="#33ccff">Edited text in this color...</font></p><p>Message Edited by NG23985_01 on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:38 PM</span></p>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div></div><blockquote> Since you cant stun, stifle, or mezz epics, <font color="#ccff00">but you can debuff them, then the best thing that I can think of to do is Debuff,</font> then focus on helping mow the monster down. ...<hr></blockquote></blockquote><p> you realize that illusionists are amongst the worst debuffer in this game?</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[MrDiz]

In a raid every debuff helps. Having said that I would like to see a few more debuffs from illusionists. Perhaps a slow that slows casting. A debuff that drops a mobs focus etc.<p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:19 AM</span></p>

[Mongowth]

<div></div><div>Also our group buffs as well as debuffs aren't up to par...</div><div> </div><div>Was speaking with a couple of classes that seem to have a group buff on resistances at adept III for 830 upwards and ours at adept III is 700(ish). When looked at stats wise that's not alot but you're talking around about 10% extra resist.</div><div> </div><div>As I said in another post but as the theme is here also, our debuff (devour hope) needs to have the tick removed off it imo, Dismay doesn't have one which helps them stop hurting us so quick but how does the help when we want to be hurting them any quicker? Not going on about any "we should be DPS rulerz" but the fact we have a debuff and can't use it for fear that big nasty heroics will come and bash our brains in!</div><div> </div><div>It's not particularly great having it on in raids apart from adding a small part of dps but on the solo side of our class it's just upping the chance of breaking the root making the debuff itself, useless!</div><p>Message Edited by Mongowth on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:42 AM</span></p>

[NG23985_01]

<div></div><div>I realize that Illusionist debuffs arent so hot - but my Illusionist has better debuffs than my Warlock or Fury. Fury can debuff AGI/WIS (worthless), and Warlock can debuff HP/Power pool max (also worthless, as the effect is negligable on even low lvl 20 mobs). I think debuffing melee skills (and thus melee accuracy, i believe) is better than AGI/WIS or HP/Power pool debuffs. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Grouping or Soloing, I never bother to debuff (with any of my characters) but I do on Raids when its appropriate. Perhaps more debuffs would help the Illusionist class, but personally, I dont look forward to more debuffs. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>As for the resist buffs, all mage resist buffs are standardized - they give the same amount in numbers, just for different elements. Mage resist buffs are currently old T5 spells - Priests have resist buffs too, and the best Priest resist buffs are currently T6 spells, so that's probably why Mages don't have great resist buffs at this point in time. KOS is coming soon, and one of the first upgrades Mages get is their Resist/Power pool buff. I've seen some screenshots from Beta, but I cant recall any hard numbers, but our resist buffs should be doing 1000+ at Ad3 or so once KOS is here.</div><div> </div><div>EDIT: Added following paragraph...</div><div> </div><div>I sure wish my Warlock's equivalent of "Devour Hope" did damage. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> All mages have a DoT/Debuff except Warlocks - its just the debuff, and its not worth casting at all. Before LU13, the T5 version did 117 damage per 4 seconds as I recall - now it does squat.</div><p>Message Edited by NG23985_01 on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:14 AM</span></p>

[Tuleri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div></div><div>I realize that Illusionist debuffs arent so hot - but my Illusionist has better debuffs than my Warlock or Fury. Fury can debuff AGI/WIS (worthless), and Warlock can debuff HP/Power pool max (also worthless, as the effect is negligable on even low lvl 20 mobs). I think debuffing melee skills (and thus melee accuracy, i believe) is better than AGI/WIS or HP/Power pool debuffs. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Grouping or Soloing, I never bother to debuff (with any of my characters) but I do on Raids when its appropriate. Perhaps more debuffs would help the Illusionist class, but personally, I dont look forward to more debuffs. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc00cc">A warlock can do INSANE damage..we cannot.  AGI (to hit)/WIS(resists) is worthless....? In any case, Fury can still heal VERY WELL.  We cannot DPS VERY WELL......go figure.</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>As for the resist buffs, all mage resist buffs are standardized - they give the same amount in numbers, just for different elements. Mage resist buffs are currently old T5 spells - Priests have resist buffs too, and the best Priest resist buffs are currently T6 spells, so that's probably why Mages don't have great resist buffs at this point in time. KOS is coming soon, and one of the first upgrades Mages get is their Resist/Power pool buff. I've seen some screenshots from Beta, but I cant recall any hard numbers, but our resist buffs should be doing 1000+ at Ad3 or so once KOS is here.</div><div> </div><div>EDIT: Added following paragraph...</div><div> </div><div>I sure wish my Warlock's equivalent of "Devour Hope" did damage. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> All mages have a DoT/Debuff except Warlocks - its just the debuff, and its not worth casting at all. Before LU13, the T5 version did 117 damage per 4 seconds as I recall - now it does squat.</div><p>Message Edited by NG23985_01 on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>MAn, seriously...I suggested this before, why dont you play your illusionists on raids...then come back and comment.  Your just talking out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] now.  Logically, if you cannot say, heal great, you should be able to DPS...or tank even?  Our class has sacrficied DPS to do other things to MITIGATE the mobs damage, by either debuffs (which we do not do well),  Stun/Stiffle (which just do not work), mana drain (BAHAHAHA).</p><p>If you think about the fun in playing a raid chanter...we click 6 buttons at the beggining of a raid, then go to sleep, afk, watch the olympics or 24 etc...such fun.</p>

[zit]

<div></div><p>NG23985_01, you forgot to mention the one warlock debuff that is just as usefull and noticeable as our Dismay.... :smileywink:</p><p>For the resist debuff, i rather have an AE debuff than a single target one that is doing a bit dmg, even more so on my warlock. but well, thats just me.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by zitha on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:26 AM</span></p>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>Tulerine wrote:If you think about the fun in playing a raid chanter...we click 6 buttons at the beggining of a raid, then go to sleep, afk, watch the olympics or 24 etc...such fun.<hr></blockquote>Are your guild ok with you doing that? Because I would not be too impressed at any raid member doing that to be honest. Are you saying you never debuff? Never devitilizing stare? Never mana cloak? And you never DPS either? I know illusionists are lucky in raids because just being there helps and so people want them, but to go do nothing else in the raid ... ?I expect even the crappy dps fighters to actually do as much dps as they are able. And illusionist dps is far from crappy.

[Mongowth]

<div></div><p>lol... there was me thinking debuffs helped out crap loads. I'll tell everyone in my guild to not bother in future as debuffing for 1000's of specific mitigation as well as them moving around faster and having better resistances overall is useless.</p><p>I'm starting to see the other guys point. You don't play this class alot, which is more and more obvious but now you show you don't really understand much else about the game.</p><p>you debuff for WIS then you take down their general magic resistances, you debuff for AGI you take down their ability to avoid being hit, you take down their magic/divine/mental (which is our classes joyous job) then that opens up the abillity for those types of damages to hit at higher amount. Crazy but it might just work.</p><p>But that's enough of sarcasm... for now unless it just is needed again!</p><p>I use my INT and my WIS hex dolls at the start or very near too, in any raid!</p>

[NG23985_01]

<div>Mongowth, dont turn this into a bunch of insults - we dont want this thread locked.My first chracter was created on November 9th, 2004 - 3 days after the game was released, as I recall. I'm fairly knowledgable about the game, and in regards to debuffs - I'm talking in a group or solo setting. They're practically worthless. The only time that debuffs are useful (in my experience) is against an Epic creature, which I thought I made clear in my previous post.</div><div> </div><div>My Illusionist is my #1 most played alt - I play him more than my Warlock now since there's nothing to do at 60.</div><div> </div><div>Also, about the AGI/WIS debuff that Furies have - trust me, its much better to cast Dooming Swarm (Divine DoT + reduce defense skill) to help the melee's do more damage, as opposed to the AGI debuff. For the WIS factor, at most, it reduces mitigation by 2 or 3 percent - it would be more beneficial for me to just cast a nuke, than use the debuff to allow other people to do slightly more damage. (as one nuke would result in more damage than the reduced avoidance/mitigation from the AGI/WIS debuff) At first, I thought the AGI/WIS debuff would be decent too, but after using it a million times, I find that it's just not worth casting. Maybe, just maybe its worth it against Epic creatures, but anything less than Epic, fury debuffs (along with most other debuffs) are worthless.</div><div> </div><div>I regard my Illusionist's "arcane debuff" as a DoT spell with the debuff as the secondary effect. My Warlock's resist debuff is just that - a secondary effect only. The primary effect (Damage) was stripped away in LU13, and has made the spell worthless. What use is it to spend 100something power on a debuff, then start casting a nuke, but the mob dies before the nuke goes off because of the Ranger's 1500 DPS?</div>

[Tuleri]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>MrDizzi wrote:Are your guild ok with you doing that?</p><p><font color="#cc0099">No, that is the point of this post and the HUNDREDS of others myself and others have made.</font></p><p>Because I would not be too impressed at any raid member doing that to be honest. Are you saying you never debuff?</p><p><font color="#cc00cc">Our debuff is vs mental/divine/magic..which helps the enhance the AWESOME DPS of some healers, bards, chanters and paladins..Dismay is actually a good one.  You never mentiion that for some reason.</font></p><p>Never devitilizing stare?</p><p><font color="#cc00cc">Rarely. Power is generally not an issue in groups.  Only on the occassional very long fight.  However, if that fight occurs during a good scene watching 24, or during Olympic skiing events, I will probably not cast  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p>Never mana cloak?</p><p><font color="#cc00ff">Recast every 15 mins.  I think it is helpful on 2-3 mobs in the game?  Also requires us to be in MT group, which usually would prefer better buffs then chanter.  My guild is plenty successful without using manacloak.  </font></p><p>And you never DPS either?I expect even the crappy dps fighters to actually do as much dps as they are able. And illusionist dps is far from crappy.</p><p><font color="#cc00ff">It is a bit above Bards and some fighters.  Bruisers and monks blow us away, especially vs.single targets.  We own big groups of trash mobs though!  Nerfs to Pris havoc in expansion will make it worse.</font></p><p>I know illusionists are lucky in raids because just being there helps and so people want them, but to go do nothing else in the raid ... ?</p><p><font color="#cc00ff">I dont play video games to feel wanted.  People in RL do that for me.  I play to have fun and contribute.  I have played my enchanter since Nov 04...I assure you this is really not much fun any more and our contributions are minimal.  We would like to see change.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>You still never committed to raiding your enchanter..why not? Scared we are correct?<p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Tulerine on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div></div><div>I realize that Illusionist debuffs arent so hot - but my Illusionist has better debuffs than my Warlock or Fury. Fury can debuff AGI/WIS (worthless), and Warlock can debuff HP/Power pool max (also worthless, as the effect is negligable on even low lvl 20 mobs). I think debuffing melee skills (and thus melee accuracy, i believe) is better than AGI/WIS or HP/Power pool debuffs. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Grouping or Soloing, I never bother to debuff (with any of my characters) but I do on Raids when its appropriate. Perhaps more debuffs would help the Illusionist class, but personally, I dont look forward to more debuffs. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>As for the resist buffs, all mage resist buffs are standardized - they give the same amount in numbers, just for different elements. Mage resist buffs are currently old T5 spells - Priests have resist buffs too, and the best Priest resist buffs are currently T6 spells, so that's probably why Mages don't have great resist buffs at this point in time. KOS is coming soon, and one of the first upgrades Mages get is their Resist/Power pool buff. I've seen some screenshots from Beta, but I cant recall any hard numbers, but our resist buffs should be doing 1000+ at Ad3 or so once KOS is here.</div><div> </div><div>EDIT: Added following paragraph...</div><div> </div><div>I sure wish my Warlock's equivalent of "Devour Hope" did damage. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> All mages have a DoT/Debuff except Warlocks - its just the debuff, and its not worth casting at all. Before LU13, the T5 version did 117 damage per 4 seconds as I recall - now it does squat.</div><p>Message Edited by NG23985_01 on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Did you forget the STR/INT debuff that warlocks have as well? Hrm, you debuff their melee damage, and their magic damage with that, oh wait, that means Warlocks are equivalent to Illusionists in debuffs, both have exactly 1 debuff. Except Warlocks can use all their spells on epics, whereas Illusionsits cannot.And no, our resists buffs do NOT do 1000+ At Adept 3 in the 60-70 range. In fact, they are 806 vs. mental, 1008 vs. magic/divine. Hrm, look at that, that's pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing crappy for a Master 1 buff.Ahh, so your warlock has a debuff that doesn't do damage. Big freaking deal, that means you use a few seconds casting it every now and then to keep it up and lose a few points of damage, while gaining overall damage.

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div> </div><div>I regard my Illusionist's "arcane debuff" as a DoT spell with the debuff as the secondary effect. My Warlock's resist debuff is just that - a secondary effect only. The primary effect (Damage) was stripped away in LU13, and has made the spell worthless. What use is it to spend 100something power on a debuff, then start casting a nuke, but the mob dies before the nuke goes off because of the Ranger's 1500 DPS?</div><hr></blockquote>congrats, your debuff just helped the ranger poison to do more dmg. you proudly can claim some of the 1500 dps as yours.

[NG23985_01]

<div></div><div>I dont raid with my Illusionist because 1) he's an alt, 2) my guild needs my healer more, and 3) he's not L60. I'm not afraid of "being wrong" because I know for 100% certainty that Enchanters are important members of raids, regardless of what you think. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>My *estimate* of 1000+ resist buff for T7 was just that - an estimate. Why are you so hostile with me over that? I've checked a spell scroll in-game... T6 Priest M1 mitigation buffs give 928, and 1160 (for the lesser, and greater portion of their resist buffs, respectively.) A screenshot I've seen of the T7 mage resist buff (since there is no T6) gives 806 and 1008 respectively. The numbers arent too terribly far off, and in my opinion, it makes more sense for a priest buff to be better than a mage buff of the same type.</div><div> </div><div>My Warlock debuff doesnt do damage, but it should - it did before LU13, and Coercer, Wizard, and Illusionist equivalent spells do damage in addition to its debuff. And yes, I do use the STR/INT debuff, but *only* when 1) I need nil crystals, or 2) im fighting an epic creature. Also, Warlocks have several spells that do not work on Epics. Vulian Intrusion does not work on epics, the stun component of Thwart, Devastation, and Dark Nebula do not work on Epics, and neither of our Roots work on Epics.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Keep it civil, please</strong>, I'm trying to offer a different point of view, and to maybe give you a better outlook on the class, but you're being so hostile with me.</div><div> </div><div>Edit: typo...</div><p>Message Edited by NG23985_01 on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:59 AM</span></p>

[Tuleri]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div></div><div>I dont raid with my Illusionist because 1) he's an alt</div><div><font color="#cc00cc">So</font></div><div> </div><div> 2) my guild needs my healer more,</div><div><font color="#cc00ff">BINGO!! you said it!  Every guild feels the same..that is the problem here...!!</font></div><div> </div><div>3) he's not L60.</div><div><font color="#cc00ff">So.  he can be in a week.</font></div><div> </div><div> I'm not afraid of "being wrong" because I know for 100% certainty that Enchanters are important members of raids, regardless of what you think. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div><font color="#cc00ff">Again, please let us know if you feel this way AFTER raiding with your enchanter.</font></div><div> </div><div>My *estimate* of 1000+ resist buff for T7 was just that - an estimate. Why are you so hostile with me over that? I've checked a spell scroll in-game... T6 Priest M1 mitigation buffs give 928, and 1160 (for the lesser, and greater portion of their resist buffs, respectively.) A screenshot I've seen of the T7 mage resist buff (since there is no T6) gives 806 and 1008 respectively. The numbers arent too terribly far off, and in my opinion, it makes more sense for a priest buff to be better than a mage buff of the same type.</div><div> </div><div>My Warlock debuff doesnt do damage, but it should - it did before LU13, and Coercer, Wizard, and Illusionist equivalent spells do damage in addition to its debuff. And yes, I do use the STR/INT debuff, but *only* when 1) I need nil crystals, or 2) im fighting an epic creature. Also, Warlocks have several spells that do not work on Epics. Vulian Intrusion does not work on epics, the stun component of Thwart, Devastation, and Dark Nebula do not work on Epics, and neither of our Roots work on Epics.</div><div><font color="#cc00ff">I think it is safe to say that warlock DPS MORE then makes up for the loss of the weak (compared to chanters) secondary effects of some of your spells.  Our problem is, with many of our spells, is that the stun/drain/mez/stifle are the PRIMARY aspect on most of our spells.  The DPS is secondary...and if you look at a parse..it shows.</font></div><div> </div><div><strong>Keep it civil, please</strong>, I'm trying to offer a different point of view, and to maybe give you a better outlook on the class, but you're being so hostile with me.</div><div> </div><font color="#cc00ff">This is civil, and what we are telling you is...you are not knowlegeable enough with the class to be commenting like this.  Going forward, consider movng your warlock boasts to the appropriate class forum.  We wish for this to be productive for chanters.  I couldnt give 2 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s what a warlock can and cannot do, or a healer for that matter.</font><hr></blockquote>EDIT: Comments in pretty colors<p>Message Edited by Tulerine on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:25 AM</span></p>

[Klein]

<div></div><p>I agree with the posters here who state that if one does not raid with an enchanter, he/she should keep opinions about the use of enchanters on raids to him/herself.</p><p>My lvl 60 illusionist is my current raid-character. But problably not for long anymore.</p><p>Sure we can do some minor DPS, but casting takes so long, that the line "Target is not alive" is now burned into my monitor.</p><p>On raids, most of the times I end up in the last group. Because that's the group where you'll end up, if your not the main tank, main puller, healer, bard or dps. So there goes the use of Prismatic Havoc (I refuse to constantly switching target between the maintank and main assist).</p><p>Our guild has the "luxury" of three raiding enchanters. And it happened that I ended up in a raidgroup with another enchanter. So there goes the need for our powerregen. Every raider prefers a bard in his/her group. They got powerregen too, and so much more.</p><p>I am sure I don't have to clarify the use of our mezz,stiffles and stuns. It's just not there.</p><p>Most of the times on raids I do some debuffs and some nukes. Not that I can notice any difference, but it's a bit silly staring at a raidforce having fun, and you do nothing.</p><p>Although, I did it once. I joined the raid. Went into the raidzone. Put /autofollow on a groupmember, and didn't touch one key in about an hour.</p><p>Nobody noticed.</p><p>After an hour I realized I was wasting my time, so I told the raidleader I was leaving and called back to home. I was playing my alt/future-main for another hour when I dinged and mentioned so in guildchannel. Beside the usuals Gratz, I got a couple of amazed reactions, because about 50% of the raidforce hadn't noticed I had left.</p><p>Please NG23985_01, bring your illusionist to a raid and after that, I am looking forward to your reply in this thread.</p><p>Greetz,</p><p>Da Klein</p>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p></p><p>NG23985_01 wrote:</p><p>...I play my Illusionist (Solo, and in group) with the mindset that I'm a DPS class...</p><div><p>...in my opinion, it makes more sense for a priest buff to be better than a mage buff ...</p><p>...personally, I dont look forward to more debuffs..</p></div><p>...against those epic bosses that are immune to it (mez*) , the only thing that there is for you to do is use your damage spells. Is there something so terribly wrong with that?...</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p> yes, there is something terribly wrong with that. its just as wrong as a raiding fury pre LU13.</p>

[NG23985_01]

<div>I dont need to raid with my Illusionist to know that they're important in raids. My guild's Illusionist is an important member of our raiding party, and regardless of how your guild does things, our guild loves our Illusionist. Perhaps the Illusionist class isnt the source of your woes, perhaps its your guild instead.</div><div> </div><div>Dont tell me that the Illusionist 1.0 cast time nuke/DoTs gives you the "Target not alive" message as much as my Warlock gets it. That mostly comes up in groups, rather than raid settings, but Warlock's fastest nukes are 2.0, Distortion being 3.0, and Devastation/Absolution being a whopping 4.0 seconds. My Illusionist is capable of doing close to the same amount of damage that my Warlock did at the same level - don't tell me that you think Warlocks are so much better than Illusionists for damage. Under current (broken) mechanics, the undisputed king of damage is Ranger, not Warlock.</div><div> </div><div>You tell me I'm not knowledgable about the class - you have a right to your opinion, even if it is false. I know the classes that I play well enough to know that they're not as crippled as you are making them out to be. I've said it before, and here it is again: my Illusionist is my favorite alt, and he's lots of fun to play. From the attitude of some posters on this forum, I really wish that you folks could have half as much fun with your Illusionist, as I have with mine. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div>I dont need to raid with my Illusionist to know that they're important in raids. My guild's Illusionist is an important member of our raiding party, and regardless of how your guild does things, our guild loves our Illusionist. Perhaps the Illusionist class isnt the source of your woes, perhaps its your guild instead.</div><div> </div><div>Dont tell me that the Illusionist 1.0 cast time nuke/DoTs gives you the "Target not alive" message as much as my Warlock gets it. That mostly comes up in groups, rather than raid settings, but Warlock's fastest nukes are 2.0, Distortion being 3.0, and Devastation/Absolution being a whopping 4.0 seconds. My Illusionist is capable of doing close to the same amount of damage that my Warlock did at the same level - don't tell me that you think Warlocks are so much better than Illusionists for damage. Under current (broken) mechanics, the undisputed king of damage is Ranger, not Warlock.</div><div> </div><div>You tell me I'm not knowledgable about the class - you have a right to your opinion, even if it is false. I know the classes that I play well enough to know that they're not as crippled as you are making them out to be. I've said it before, and here it is again: my Illusionist is my favorite alt, and he's lots of fun to play. From the attitude of some posters on this forum, I really wish that you folks could have half as much fun with your Illusionist, as I have with mine. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>So, explain to us why you believe your guildmate that plays the Illusionist class is an important member of your raiding party. What does he bring to your raid that is so important that you believe? Look, don't get me wrong, if I'm not raiding I'm having a blast of a time playing my class, but once I raid I only have fun when I can save the raid from a wipe with our control spells. Which I've done once, due to somebody screwing up and getting the coercer killed and half the raid knocked off of where Rhoen stands after Rhoen died. Now that, was fun. Or keeping the adds mezzed against Urzyd the Undying. Same with controlling the adds against Arch Lich Udalan. Now that is that kind of greatness I want for the class. The Gnoll Captain Ana[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e is also a fun encounter with the adds. Those are the kind of encounters that make it fun to be an enchanter, the rest make me feel like a Sorceror. It's not about control against epic mobs, it's about control of the "encounter"(that being everything that goes with the encounter, even if it's not "part" of the encounter).

[Manyak]

<blockquote><hr>NG23985_01 wrote:<div>I dont need to raid with my Illusionist to know that they're important in raids. My guild's Illusionist is an important member of our raiding party, and regardless of how your guild does things, our guild loves our Illusionist. Perhaps the Illusionist class isnt the source of your woes, perhaps its your guild instead.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0066">Dont tell me that the Illusionist 1.0 cast time nuke/DoTs gives you the "Target not alive" message as much as my Warlock gets it. That mostly comes up in groups, rather than raid settings, but Warlock's fastest nukes are 2.0, Distortion being 3.0, and Devastation/Absolution being a whopping 4.0 seconds. My Illusionist is capable of doing close to the same amount of damage that my Warlock did at the same level - don't tell me that you think Warlocks are so much better than Illusionists for damage. Under current (broken) mechanics, the undisputed king of damage is Ranger, not Warlock.</font></div><div> </div><div>You tell me I'm not knowledgable about the class - you have a right to your opinion, even if it is false. I know the classes that I play well enough to know that they're not as crippled as you are making them out to be. I've said it before, and here it is again: my Illusionist is my favorite alt, and he's lots of fun to play. From the attitude of some posters on this forum, I really wish that you folks could have half as much fun with your Illusionist, as I have with mine. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote><p>Even though we dont get the 'target not alive' message as much as warlocks do, how much damage do we actually DO before a mob dies? i know that if im lucky i can get off ONE 600 damage nuke. whoop dee doo, that gives us SUCH an advantage over warlocks. Plus, u can always just target a different mob than the MA is and then AoE though that one, so that makes up for those casting times.</p><p>Also, as you said, yuor Illusionist is your favorite <font color="#ff3366"><strong><u>ALT</u></strong></font>. Nothing more. If you have an illu as your main and u really tried raiding with it, then ull see where we are coming from. As far as i can remember, none of us have EVER complained that we are bad in groups or solo. Its the other way around....the combo of some DPS with some mana regen with the crazy CC abilities just in case is everything a group could want, plus more. And since we can actually use ALL our spells, we really do have fun. Our real problem is in raids. Just like Pinski said, there are a couple raids where being an illusionist is fun as hell, like Urzyd and Arch Lich. Back in those days i used to make SURE that we never missed a day without doing Zalak or Arch Lich, cuz those were the only raids where i wasnt a pure buff bot.</p><p>So please, before u think we should have fun raiding as an illusionist, try it out yourself. See how much fun u have doing almost nothing.</p>

[MrDiz]

If you dont contribute to a raid with your illusionist thats youre choice. I contribute a lot. On raids I stun, mez, dps, keep the tank in power (a critical thing on some encounters), and I even cure arcane AE stuns on critical characters in raid because I can stay outside the range and still do my job(s).

[Mongowth]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>NG, you're seriously fighting a losing battle here (the same as we are so I guess your getting the feel for the lllusionist forums now :smileywink: ). You're trying to justify everything which has been "in the post" from SOE since it's release and as you've been playing since that time then surely your knowledge would let you know that.... right?</div><div> </div><div>Are you a DEV/GM? Getting the sneaking suspicion now as not many people, unless paid for it, would keep coming back for more!</div><div> </div><div>Anyways... This post was initially asking if we are due to get ANY comfirmation that the problems that are with the illusionist are ever going to be fixed. Now Mr. NG (the potential dev) has come and stirred up a whole heap of shyte instead of what could have been an answer and general feedback from the dev's to the people who pay their wages. Illusionists are turning on Illusionists in these forums... Can we please get an answer instead of what seems the crappy end of the stick?!!</div><div> </div><div>It's called customer service which is non-existent in about 99% of businesses today. We get a post from a dev saying "keep it clean or we'll lock this post" so they have time for that. They also have time to say "please keep it constructive" after gawd knows how many "constructive" posts from VERY knowledgable players in the realm of illusionist in this game. So atm some of us are feeling that we're paying them, for what right now seems to be ignored as a paying customer!!</div><div> </div><div>I'm massively surprised/dissapointed with the history of these MMORPGs and GM/devs haven't figured out yet that the players want to be involved in the game that they play. Why can't it be a general stickied post with potential changes (as a result of "constructive" feedback) as well as whatever the board of directors came up with and then leave it on a vote type basis?! The players decide, the players then have shot themselves in the foot if anything goes wrong (apart from development into game side) so the players then only have themselves to whinge and moan at. Seems crazy but logical plus the fact that the Devs get a break from a part of their job.</div><div> </div><div>ie:</div><div>Do you want to be able to melee better: NO!</div><div>Do want an upgrade to mana cloak: YES!</div><div>Do you want mana cloak upgrade to be 20% proc for 350-450 or 30% proc for 250-350: me personally 30% proc :smileyvery-happy:</div><p>Message Edited by Mongowth on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p>

[merkla]

<div></div><div>Mrdizzi wrote</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">If you dont contribute to a raid with your illusionist thats youre choice. I contribute a lot. On raids I stun, mez, dps, keep the tank in power (a critical thing on some encounters), and I even cure arcane AE stuns on critical characters in raid because I can stay outside the range and still do my job(s).</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>keep tank in power: i dunno, prolly my main tank is uber but i rarely need to feed him and powere regen isnt so needed.. and i can feed him only if im in his group, and now dont tell me that u have a spot in MT group cuz i know a lot of better buff classes then illusionists</div><div> </div><div>stun, mez: cmon mr dizzi i know about tozens of encounter when mez and stuns are just a joke to do, and sometimes they only lower the overall dps... the situations mez is needed are only a few and that encounters are the one i love..with this im not saying mez need to be needed ALL teh encounters...but i really really cant understand how u and NB23942 can say that we should be happy for what we can do in raids.... the only thing i can see is that u dont raid with ur illu or use him aas a bot.... cmon a lot of our spells are just a joke in most  raids.. and pls pls stop speaking about dps cuz im not a dps class..and if u read how soe describe enchanters we arent a dps class and turn us in a cheap dps class in raid isnt fun...at all....</div><div>btw what i really like to be fixed in raids are 3 things...i can live with epic boss immune to: stiffle stuns and mez... they are epic boss we cant trivialize em...but well now dont tell me that mana drain and spellshield arent completely useless????</div><div>and why, why why should be TRASH mobs immune to stuns stiffle and mez? when i raid PPtr and we kill the minotuars...they are all immune, all trash</div><div>and dont tell me that mana drain, spellshield dont need a fix..cuz we hardly can touch the mana pool of an heroic mob...think about an epic....spellshield is just a joke, u reflect "profession" oki, innate abilites cant be reflexed oki....</div><div>but make it raid castable.... never i get a spell reflected by someone else then the MT, only if they overagro..but as i said... why should be an illusionist in MT grup?...the only encounter i think i have a spot in mt is bq..thats all</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>and just to add the last thing: i started this thread to tell: "im paying costumer, i have been a paying costumer since the relase of eq1, why should you devs keep this silence?" "we have problems now, we had enormous problems before LU13, but pls devs tell me if i this is how u planned illusionists or if u are gonna fix some BIG issue that tbh cant be ignored?"</div><div>cuz ifthis is the final goal they wanted illusionists, ill demote my illusionist to an alt and play him only in groups..where we are a great class.... but if i wanna have fun in raid this isnt the way... and if tehy dont tell me anything more and just keep the silence ill quit cuz i think it is a lack of respect that u ignore ur paying costumers...and this is the feeling i have i started play eq2....i have been in silence for long time cuz eq1 have been great</div><div> </div><div>and the last thing i wanted to see is some illusionists that come to this post and say " cmon merklar u should be happy u can do dps, there are lot of things u can do..stop whining"</div><div> </div><div>just to discover that u dont use ur illusionist in raid as main char.. or if u use him just as an alt... cuz u can speak about something only if u have tried it before...otherwise u lack the acknowledge..</div><div> </div><div>with this last words i didnt want to offend anyone</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by merklarx on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:32 AM</span></p>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>merklarx wrote:keep tank in power: i dunno, prolly my main tank is uber but i rarely need to feed him and powere regen isnt so needed.. and i can feed him only if im in his group, and now dont tell me that u have a spot in MT group cuz i know a lot of better buff classes then illusionists</blockquote>Doesnt matter how uber the tank is if he gets drained. And yes, Im telling you that I sometime have a spot in g1. This happens a)when the dirge goes to bed and we are too fanatical to call it a night <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> b) On power drain mobs.<blockquote>stun, mez: cmon mr dizzi i know about tozens of encounter when mez and stuns are just a joke to do, and sometimes they only lower the overall dps... the situations mez is needed are only a few and that encounters are the one i love..with this im not saying mez need to be needed ALL teh encounters...but i really really cant understand how u and NB23942 can say that we should be happy for what we can do in raids....</blockquote>Im not telling you that you should be happy. Im telling you I am happy. Lowering the overall dps is what allowed us to take down the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] snake and his friends in GoAA last night.<blockquote>the only thing i can see is that u dont raid with ur illu or use him aas a bot....</blockquote>Ahh so your argument is that because I disagree with you I must be a cheater? Well I dont cheat, and I would put forward that if you dont think I raid with my enchanter you may log on to Kithicor server and chat to the guild leaders of Omega if you so choose.<blockquote>i can live with epic boss immune to: stiffle stuns and mez... they are epic boss we cant trivialize em...but well now dont tell me that mana drain and spellshield arent completely useless????</blockquote>Speelshield is not totally useless, its just not critically important. It can stop a few spells from adds so it is useful. But I do know what you mean. It should reflect more. The problem is how to stop us using this to blow away tough raids by letting them blow themselves away.Mana drain however is totally useless. But again Im still unsure how they can implement it without unbalancing the encounter.But dont get me wrong, I think these areas need looking into. Does that mean we are a gimped raid class? Not for me. Illusionist are just like every other class out there: They have issues. But they arent broken or totally unplayable or even subpar. They are a damned good group char, a damned good raid char, and a superb solo char. Thats just my opinion.If you believe these forums every class is broken or bad in raids etc etc. Well I have soloed, grouped and raided with 4 characters and three of them I classify as damned good characters ... and yet on the forums for those classes "Sony must hate " "CLASS X is broken".Unless youre a carpenter you dont know what broken is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SunT]

<div></div><p>Funny.</p><p>Of all the posters 2 of them think we are fine on raids.</p><p>Both of those two admit they do not raid with thier Illusionist or they box him.</p><p>NG23985_01 and MrDizzi, please go raid constantly with your Illusionist for a few weeks and come back and tell me how to do it.  I do it every single night, i am pretty sure I know what the hell I am talking about.</p>

[Pins]

Well, before I thought we were super useful in T6 raids. Then I and the other chanter missed a day of raiding(where they took on gates/court). They took out the snake, rhoen, dinree, black queen all without mez. You know the strategy to do this right? On the snake, it's burn down after the AoE, same with dinree. Rhoen and Black Queen? Bring the mobs out of the AoE. So, in the end what do you end up with, not really needed. In fact, on power drain mobs if you want a tank with power, bring some sorcerors. Feeding the power every now and then with a huge burst of guarenteed power is a lot better than relying on the RNG in this game.Stunning trash, useful because hey, it actually adds to our dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(gotta love dynamism). In fact, I honestly would rather not be in a MT group if I had the option. Being in the MT group is not a "big" thing to me. I much prefer my proper DPS group that I'm usually in to the MT group, because I know there are other classes that offer more. Though lately in T7 beta raid content, I've actually noticed that spellshield is about 10x times as useful as compared to T6 raiding, in fact there are god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mobs that are casting Phantasmal Brilliance, sooooooooooooooo [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing annoying to get yourself mezed, though when spellshield is up(although it doesn't last long on spellcasters) it's a noticable difference. So Spellshield has gotten its fix, but in a different way for the new content.Though I'd still love to see more encounters where CC is a need, not just useful, but not necessary. But this is just a need of CC, not a need of an enchanter, which means they can balance it out against a raid without an enchanter. Swashies, Bruisers, Wizards, and Troubadors can all mez. Templars have a pacify. Defilers, Bruisers, and Dirges have a fear. All the mages have root(s) and stun(s). Wardens have a root. All fighters and scouts have stun(s). A fight like Arch Lich Udalan would be great. Yah I'm sure most people in T5 kept him stifled/stunned rather than fighting him the way you were supposed to, but now that you cannot do that you have to keep the adds CC'd, be that with stuns, root, fear, pacify, or mez. I don't want raids to require enchanters, because that's stupid. I just want raids that require CC, because ALL classes have CC in some form or another.

[Manyak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:<blockquote><hr>merklarx wrote:keep tank in power: i dunno, prolly my main tank is uber but i rarely need to feed him and powere regen isnt so needed.. and i can feed him only if im in his group, and now dont tell me that u have a spot in MT group cuz i know a lot of better buff classes then illusionists</blockquote>Doesnt matter how uber the tank is if he gets drained. And yes, Im telling you that I sometime have a spot in g1. This happens a)when the dirge goes to bed and we are too fanatical to call it a night <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> b) On power drain mobs.<font color="#ff3366"> Then a) ur guild must not have a troubador or coercer to replace the dirge instead, and/or b) u have so many healers in ur raids that it doesnt even matter what buffs the tank has. Dont forget, coercers have mana cloak too, along with a hate buff for the tank, +DPS for him for even more hate, a DS (raid castable though), +AGI, about double your power pool buff, and about double your mana regen. And since spellshield doesnt reflect any of the mobs power drains, gimme ONE good reason why u would be put in MT group over a coercer on one of those mobs. Plus,Troubadors MT buffs are +defense, better mana regen, better magic/mental/divne resists and also heat/cold resists, spell reflect, and STA/STR. And dont forget, warlocks have a single target raid castable mana pump over time (similar to our old breeze, just a shorter duration) for ur MT anyway. So if your guild is putting you in the MT group when the dirge leaves, you guys must be missing plenty of key MT buff classes, not just a troub and coercer. And honestly if ur missing so many, im surprised yall r even able to kill anything.</font><blockquote>stun, mez: cmon mr dizzi i know about tozens of encounter when mez and stuns are just a joke to do, and sometimes they only lower the overall dps... the situations mez is needed are only a few and that encounters are the one i love..with this im not saying mez need to be needed ALL teh encounters...but i really really cant understand how u and NB23942 can say that we should be happy for what we can do in raids....</blockquote>Im not telling you that you should be happy. Im telling you I am happy. Lowering the overall dps is what allowed us to take down the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] snake and his friends in GoAA last night.<font color="#ff3366"> What did u use, Dismay? just let a troub or two do the mezzing, or maybe even that coercer thats supposed to be put in the MT group before you are. And if u wanna talk about classes that lower DPS, look at brigands, swashies, dirges, troubs, mystics, defilers, templars, inquisitors, wardens, furies, monks, bruisers, guards, zerkers, pallys, and SKs. ALL those classes lower a mobs DPS in some way or another, with skills ranging from slows and melee skill debuffs to interrupts. A properly timed stream of interrupts is nothing to sneeze at. And to be honest, between the buffs and debuffs of those classes, they can each lower an epics DPS by a WHOLE lot more than an illu can. And if u really wanna get nasty, look at brigands. They dont only lower the DPS of the mob by a whole lot more than an illu can, but they can also lower the mobs resistances by so much that the ENTIRE raids DPS can go up by a good 10-20%, AND still pump out 800 DPS, all at the same time. So with all this, its obvious that the illu's job isnt to lower the DPS of a mob.</font><blockquote>the only thing i can see is that u dont raid with ur illu or use him aas a bot....</blockquote>Ahh so your argument is that because I disagree with you I must be a cheater? Well I dont cheat, and I would put forward that if you dont think I raid with my enchanter you may log on to Kithicor server and chat to the guild leaders of Omega if you so choose.<font color="#ff3366"> You know what, i think i will talk to em, cuz id really like to see what insight they have on actually RESERVING a spot for an illu on a raid if they already have at least one troub and/or one coercer.</font><blockquote>i can live with epic boss immune to: stiffle stuns and mez... they are epic boss we cant trivialize em...but well now dont tell me that mana drain and spellshield arent completely useless????</blockquote><p>Speelshield is not totally useless, its just not critically important. It can stop a few spells from adds so it is useful. But I do know what you mean. It should reflect more. The problem is how to stop us using this to blow away tough raids by letting them blow themselves away.<font color="#ff3366"> Why the hell would i care to reflect a few [Removed for Content] spells from adds? All the adds in epic encounters that are strong enough to worry about all have spells that cant be reflected. Plus dont forget, the only time ur gonna use this is when ur in the MT group, which really, REALLY, shouldnt happen.</font>Mana drain however is totally useless. But again Im still unsure how they can implement it without unbalancing the encounter.<font color="#ff3366"> Then why the hell give us mana drains in the first place? So that we might actually be stupid enough to cast them and get more aggro?</font>But dont get me wrong, I think these areas need looking into. Does that mean we are a gimped raid class? Not for me. Illusionist are just like every other class out there: They have issues. But they arent broken or totally unplayable or even subpar. They are a damned good group char, a damned good raid char, and a superb solo char. Thats just my opinion.<font color="#ff3366"> Solo/groupwise yes alot of classes have issues, i cant argue. But raidwise? The only ones that REALLY TRUELY need help cuz their class does jack sh*t on raids are illus, coercers, and SKs, and maybe wardens too since their avoidance buffs do squat vs epics now. But at least all the other classes can still perform their main functions pretty well. Yeh they might need to be tweaked a bit here and there, but only these three or four classes really need to be looked at and reconfigured from top to bottom.</font>If you believe these forums every class is broken or bad in raids etc etc. Well I have soloed, grouped and raided with 4 characters and three of them I classify as damned good characters ... and yet on the forums for those classes "Sony must hate " "CLASS X is broken". <font color="#ff3366">I have soloed, grouped, AND raided with several other toons including a guardian, coercer, warlock, mystic, troubador, swashbuckler, ranger, fury, and wizard (as u can guess ive botted plenty of ppl), and every one of those toons brings more to a raid than an illu does (with the exception of the guardian if hes not tanking). Noone is saying that the illu doesnt bring anything at all...just not anything worthwhile keeping an illu over another class on any single raid at all. For those encounters that NEED better than troubador mezzes, the raid is better off dumping the illu and bringing a coercer - they can mezz while they are stunned and can give more mana to themselves and the group.</font>Unless youre a carpenter you dont know what broken is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Imagine playing ur templar at a raid, but ur not allowed to heal. Or tanking with ur guardian, but ur not allowed to use taunts. Or with ur swashie, but not allowed to debuff. Sure they can all DPS, but thats not why they were brought. Those are their main jobs, not DPS. An illusionists main job is CROWD CONTROL, not DPS. Playing ur templar, for example, in a group and in a raid is almost the same exact thing. Sure there are spells u might not use so often in a raid like u do in a group (and vice versa), but thats only cuz u know that it wouldnt be good in that situation. Play an Illu in a raid and ur not even given a choice.</p><p>Plus think of it this way. Assuming all spells with all classes are adept 3, put a guardian in a group with a zerker (procs), inquisitor (more procs and haste), assassin (even more procs), dirge (cant get enough procs and +DPS), and a monk (just haste this time), and he can be buffed to maintain about 400-500 DPS (maybe more?) on a single target, which is almost as much as an illu can with a troub in group (500 DPS or so at all adept 3s and without the bruiser/zerker bug). So if a fully buffed guardian can do similar DPS to a fully buffed illu, then something HAS to be wrong with saying that illus should be happy with being able to DPS at raids. When u think of it like this, telling the illu hes a DPS class and he doesnt need CC is like telling a guardian that HEs a DPS class and doesnt need to wear plate armor.</p><p>All youve proved is that you have fun playing the class. Great, im happy for you. That doesnt mean that it isnt probably the most broken class in the game, and those of us who spent over a year playing the class and putting a whole lot of time, effort, and money into it want it fixed. And that also doesnt excuse the fact that not a single dev has even replied to us about whether or not they are going to do anything, let alone even THINK of doing anything, to the class. So please, dont tell us that we have no reason to be [Removed for Content] off.</p>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote>All youve proved is that you have fun playing the class. Great, im happy for you. That doesnt mean that it isnt probably the most broken class in the game, and those of us who spent over a year playing the class and putting a whole lot of time, effort, and money into it want it fixed.</blockquote>See this is the sort of comment I have trouble with. Illusionists are not broken. They are not even close. Carpenters are broke. Illusionist are great or terrible depending on what you wanted from the class I guess.And SunTsu im still trying to figure out why Im not allowed to have an opinion on whether illusionist is broken becasue i can 2 box, but people who have never played a templar, guardian or swashbuckler feel qualified to inform me exactly how good or bad those classes are. I currently raid the templar, and i raid the illusionist, and ill often raid them both together. How on earth does that make my opinion null and void? Im fairly sure if I was agreeing with your stance my opinion would be welcome.Please i dont mind the discussion but lets not start character assassination.<p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:13 AM</span></p>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:Some Coercer and Troubador comments here, and guardian comments too!<hr></blockquote>Yes, I deleted basically all what I'm replying to, but it was just too much to put in the post. Anyway, Coercers buff the same power pool amount as we do, they get +DPS%, but that's akin to our haste, however they get +Hate %, and a free damaging spell reactive that counts towards the MT. As for your troubadors, I would say you're more useful in a MT group than them just because they can lower the hate of another group, thus giving the tank a leap on Hate %, while you can't do anything like that. Plus Defense doesn't add that much avoidance. Also if you're using a Mystic you're already at the STA cap for most tanks, whiel using a Defiler you're going to still have high HP, so adding anymore isn't as useful as adding other things. In which case you're better off going with the Illusionist over the troubador, however you're better off with a Dirge, then a Coercer, then an Illusionist for the power regen/buff spot. Most of the time the MT group looks like Guardian, Fury, Templar, Mystic, Dirge, Coercer. If the Coercer isn't there it can occasinaly switch over to being me there, a conjuror there, or a bruiser there(avoidance is nice). If there's no Dirge or Coercer, it's me and an Assassin.As for the guardian comments, I totally agree, they can do as much DPS as when they get into a good formed up group for both of us.

[SunT]

<div></div><p>Well MrDizzi, you and the other dude don't raid with your Chanter full time.  That is the issue.</p><p>I have two boxed on raids before too and I am really busy.  So not having to cast a bunch of spells is kind of nice.</p><p>BUt when you play one toon all night and cast one debuff and a couple dps spells it sux.  All I want to do is raid, but playing my Illusionist I watch TV while I raid.  I play another toon on a nother machine and it makes no difference.  My DPS is the same and my disfuctional job is done jsut as well.  I didn't want to play a class that could be boxed blindfolded.  I wanted one that kept me on the edge and challenged me all night long.  I have a high stress job, suprising since I spend so much time here, lol, but true and when I play I want to flush it all out.  EQ1 chanters could do that.  EQ2 chanters can be played in their sleep.</p><p>Put it into perspective. </p><p>Your Templar.  Lets say your templar gets 10 heals.  But when you are on a raid you can only cast one of them.  It is enough to keep the tank up but all you can do is cast one heal all night.</p><p>Would you think your Templar was working as intended and a Fun class to play?  Or would you target him and AF and use a timed keypresser to do it for you while you  boxed another toon or watched TV?</p><p>I chose this toon because in groups and solo he was extremely challenging.  I thought he would continue to be as challenging on raids. He is not.  You dont see it or dont care becasue you box yours anyway.  That is why your opinion does not matter to me.  You are a part timer.</p><p>I can box too, but I dont want to.  I want to immerse in one toon and have a blast.  I want to have as much fun with my toon in the end game as I do in the rest of the game.</p><p>I dont think that is too much to ask.</p><p>All they need do is fix my abilities.</p>

[Manyak]

<div></div><div>hmm, looks like in the month that i took a break from the game coercers got a power pool nerf....my bad i missed that one. last i rememebred it was over 1k or something like that. but either way, +DPS has a greater effect than haste though, so it still counts as a bonus <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> anyway the biggest reasons r just the huge difference in mana ragen and the hate gain, rest is all BS. But yeh, MT group is usually the way u put it, but sometimes we switch subclasses within that group depending on the mob (like switch the fury with a warden if we really need heat resists for example). but ya u do got a point with that hate reduc thing with the troub, although on the harder mobs i think id take that bit of extra avoidance any day of the week, and thats just cuz on those bad days where we DONT have a dirge and coercer, we never seem to have a good amount of healers on either, so we end up beefing up the tank as much as possible. and since we usually have a couple extra DPS classes than we should, their damage pretty much makes up for what extra could have been done with less and if the tank held more aggro. yup i know, kinda unbalanced, but with a low amount of healers i still think its a better choice. i mean, as long as it works aint no reason to change it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ut it into perspective. <p>Your Templar.  Lets say your templar gets 10 heals.  But when you are on a raid you can only cast one of them.  It is enough to keep the tank up but all you can do is cast one heal all night.</p><p>Would you think your Templar was working as intended and a Fun class to play?  Or would you target him and AF and use a timed keypresser to do it for you while you  boxed another toon or watched TV?</p></blockquote>You dont know? Templars have 2 heals, and 2 reactive heals. IF i am in G1 my basic task is to cycle through the 2 reactives, and press either of the 2 heals on damage spikes. If not in G1 I use 1 reactive and the 2 heals on spikes.I hate to point this out to you but when I 2 box it the templar on AF. Apart from the fist 15 seconds of a pull where i debuff, most of the raid could be done pressing just 4 keys. Think about that for a second. When I 2 box its the templar on AF and I could pretty much play him presing the same 4 keys over and over. Are templars broken too?<blockquote>You dont see it or dont care becasue you box yours anyway.  That is why your opinion does not matter to me.  You are a part timer.</blockquote>Theres i just no need for this nastiness at all. But of either of us youre the part timer in this game. Ive experienced every archetype to its limit and understand the concept of class balance better than most because of it. I know the role of tank, healer , dps and other in raids because ive actually done it. Re-read that. I have DONE it. I havnt just chatted to guild mates about it, or read it on a forum. Ive done it first hand.I have a different opinion to you not because i 2 box, but because I know that on raids each individual does very little. What matters is they do the little they can at the right time.Im gonna say this again: Ive raided toons seperately, and ive raided them 2 box. When i do 2 box, its the templar on AF, because the templar is by far the easiest char to play in a raid.The only one of my chars thats even remotely challenging (and a pain to 2 box btw) is swashbuckler. So illusionists are no worse off in raids than guardians or templars. But of all the chars i have its the illutionist and templar that are in demand by the guild for raids. Go figure that one out.The ONLY thing I can agree on with you here is that the templars role is ALWAYS the same, in every single raid, whereas the illusionists role shifts. And thats what you dont like. You want it to be one role: "Confused and befuddle!" and you have your own idea as to what that means. I dont mind that the role shifts during raids and still feel good about the char.<p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:48 AM</span></p>

[zit]

<div></div><p><span></p><hr size="2" width="100%"></span><p><span>MrDizzi wrote:The only one of my chars thats even remotely challenging (and a pain to 2 box btw) is swashbuckler. So illusionists are no worse off in raids than guardians or templars. <font color="#ccff00">But of all the chars i have its the illutionist and templar that are in demand by the guild for raids.</font> Go figure that one out.</span><span></p><hr size="2" width="100%"></span><p><span></span> </p><p><span>There is a difference in demand though. If a guild had a fury, a warden, a defiler, a mystic and an inquisitor but no templar and they now could pick one more healer, which one do you think they would chose?</span></p><p><span>If a guild had a coercer, a troub, a dirge but no illu and they could pick one more power regen class, how many guilds do you think would seriously take an illu if they had the choice?</span></p><p><span>This is one of the big problems. Not that we couldnt contribute anything, or that we would be completely useless but that we contribute less than compareable classes. The main reason and most likely only reason why we are in demand for raids is the fact that there are so few bards and coercer out there. Illu are the most played power regen class and if a guild cant get as many troub, dirge and coercer as they would wish then for a cheap substitute they will be happy to go with the illu. </span></p>

[SunT]

<div><font color="#ffff00">I am about done with this...</font><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:<blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ut it into perspective. <p>Your Templar.  Lets say your templar gets 10 heals.  But when you are on a raid you can only cast one of them.  It is enough to keep the tank up but all you can do is cast one heal all night.</p><p>Would you think your Templar was working as intended and a Fun class to play?  Or would you target him and AF and use a timed keypresser to do it for you while you  boxed another toon or watched TV?</p></blockquote>You dont know? Templars have 2 heals, and 2 reactive heals. IF i am in G1 my basic task is to cycle through the 2 reactives, and press either of the 2 heals on damage spikes. If not in G1 I use 1 reactive and the 2 heals on spikes.<font color="#ffff00">Templars are casting four spells(your count) that are CLASS DEFINING.  They SPAM their true intended abilites.  You are forgetting all the debuffs and the specials like Sanctuary, but I dont want to tell you how to play your class.   There are a few raids where my Illusionist can only cast ONE spell.  Black Queen is a good example.  I only cast mez and do it happilly.  It is my intended job and why i rolled the toon.  I dont complain about her being almost totally mental resistant, I just shut up and lock down the adds.  I am totally fine with one spell in some situation as long as it is class defining.  The issue is we cast Dismay which is not class defining and [Removed for Content] DPS, that is NOT why I rolled a chanter.</font>I hate to point this out to you but when I 2 box it the templar on AF. Apart from the fist 15 seconds of a pull where i debuff, most of the raid could be done pressing just 4 keys. Think about that for a second. When I 2 box its the templar on AF and I could pretty much play him presing the same 4 keys over and over. Are templars broken too?<font color="#ffff00">Whatever trips your trigger but unless you are mezzing the Chanter should be second machine.</font><blockquote>You dont see it or dont care becasue you box yours anyway.  That is why your opinion does not matter to me.  You are a part timer.</blockquote><p>Theres i just no need for this nastiness at all. But of either of us youre the part timer in this game. Ive experienced every archetype to its limit and understand the concept of class balance better than most because of it. I know the role of tank, healer , dps and other in raids because ive actually done it. Re-read that. I have DONE it. I havnt just chatted to guild mates about it, or read it on a forum. Ive done it first hand.  <font color="#ffff00">Not intended to be nasty.  You assked why I dont respect you differing opinion and I told you why.  Sorry if you dont like it but that is the truth.  You might not like me but you will always know where I stand.  I have tanked MT and Offtank for my guild as well.  All my spells worked, I could taunt and attack and buff and heal and my plate worked and my sword worked...ALL CLASS DEFINING abilities worked just fine.  Same with my Defiler, nothing class defining is disabled.  All my heals buffs and debuffs work jsut fine.</font>I have a different opinion to you not because i 2 box, but because I know that on raids each individual does very little. What matters is they do the little they can at the right time.Im gonna say this again: Ive raided toons seperately, and ive raided them 2 box. When i do 2 box, its the templar on AF, because the templar is by far the easiest char to play in a raid.The only one of my chars thats even remotely challenging (and a pain to 2 box btw) is swashbuckler. So illusionists are no worse off in raids than guardians or templars. But of all the chars i have its the illutionist and templar that are in demand by the guild for raids. Go figure that one out.  <font color="#ffff00">A swash is in no way broken.  Difficult to twobox does not mean broken.  The class can use its attacks and specials on epics.  That defines the class.  It is not broken.  They have to joust or range, but that does not make them broken.  </font>The ONLY thing I can agree on with you here is that the templars role is ALWAYS the same, in every single raid, whereas the illusionists role shifts. And thats what you dont like. You want it to be one role: "Confused and befuddle!" and you have your own idea as to what that means. I dont mind that the role shifts during raids and still feel good about the char.  <font color="#ffff00">Yes it shifts like this.  95% [Removed for Content] warlock, 25-40% of the DPS.  4% Chanter.  1% totally imune encounters.  You missl the point time and again.  It is about CLASS DEFINING ABILITIES OF WHICH WE HAVE NONE ON EPICS.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I can't say it any plainer.  One good thing has come from this conversation.  The Illusionist class will be alive and well with part time botters.  So when the full timers leave the class out of utter disgust discouragement and sheer boredom the Illusionist will still have you to keep us alive.</font></p><p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:48 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[MrDiz]

Ok so the demand in one guild may be worse than in another. But this is true for many classes. In fact for some classes it is even worse. eg. Our guild has 3 well equiped fighters. We used to have 2 guardians and both have been retired because why would you take a guardian on a raid when you could have any other class? Thats just how it is.So is an illusionist better or worse than a dirge in a raid? I think no, you probably think yes. It doesnt matter. There will always be some classes better than others in raids. Thats never going to change.It does not mean Illusionist is a useless raid class. the only thing that could possibly make an illusionist useless is the player.

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:Templars are casting four spells(your count) that are CLASS DEFINING.  They SPAM their true intended abilites. </blockquote>Yeah but thats just how you decide a class is defined. Some people might decide illusionists are defined by actual illusions (and my guess is they are even more unhappy than you). Others might think that the class is a dps class that uses confusion, befuddling sensory attacks and brain damaging bursts aswell as more indirect methods to damage foes. Some like me might even define an illusionist as support class. So you decided that illusionists are 'class defined' as EQ1 style CC? myself I define it as ALL of the above.<blockquote>You are forgetting all the debuffs and the specials like Sanctuary, but I dont want to tell you how to play your class.   There are a few raids where my Illusionist can only cast ONE spell. </blockquote>Santuary is nice, but i use it perhaps 10 times less than I use mez on my illusinist. And ONE spell? Wow. I dont want to tell you how to play your class either but Ill tell you how I play mine: I use 3 AE dots (2 health, 1 power), 2 targeted DOTS, 1 direct damage spell, 1 debuff, a 30sec spell casting buff, Savante, and lets not forget Prismatic Havoc. Add to that the AE stun I count 11 hotkeys i press non stop during a raid and thats ignoreing the ones we might use once a fight or less, like MEZZES, mana cloak and any times I might use pet for pulling.Now my templar uses 3 debuffs on pull, then rotates 2 reactives. The 2 heals are for spike damage and so may only get used once or twice a fight. Sometimes never. Same with group heal or group cure arcana. At best id say I use 5 keys for most of the fight, with 2 or 3 others being pressed if something happens. Now maybe towards the end ill use my 3 nukes, bringing the grand total of keys I use to ... 11.And I will actually press about 5 to 6 times more keys on the illusionist as on the templar during any one raid because the templar casts reactives, then waits for several seconds. The illusionist just keeps on casting no matter what (UNLESS im in mez mode of course).<blockquote>Black Queen is a good example.  I only cast mez and do it happilly.</blockquote>Do you mez them immediately after pull or do it a couple of seconds afterwards to let tank get aggro. Cos i got major league wasted when I mezzed them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><blockquote>It is my intended job and why i rolled the toon. </blockquote>And thats the crux of this isnt it? I had the advantage of picking the class AFTER i knew what it was. I suppose in some ways im disapointed iwth templars for not being more like clerics in eq1 too. But what can i do?<blockquote>Whatever trips your trigger but unless you are mezzing the Chanter should be second machine.</blockquote>Why? Ive been doing this a long time and im pretty good at it. The templar is by far the easiest to have on the off box.<blockquote>You missl the point time and again.  It is about CLASS DEFINING ABILITIES OF WHICH WE HAVE NONE ON EPICS.</blockquote>Who made you god? You dont get to define classes.<blockquote>The Illusionist class will be alive and well with part time botters. </blockquote>I dont BOT and I resent the implication! The snide little personal attacks are going to get you nowhere. And what is all this part timer crap? I play my illusionist probably more than you play yours. I am not a casual player. Its not my fault the illusionist is not a class that you like so please stop trying to take this out on me.Was the illusionist fun to play with at the beginning? Im trying to work out why you have played the class for 14 months.

[Aedos]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:<blockquote>You missl the point time and again.  It is about CLASS DEFINING ABILITIES OF WHICH WE HAVE NONE ON EPICS.</blockquote>Who made you god? You dont get to define classes.<blockquote>The Illusionist class will be alive and well with part time botters. </blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Illusionist class description from EQ2player:</p><p>Illusionists use arcane power to confound and befuddle their enemies. They also boost the offensive and defensive abilities of their allies.</p><p>So illusionist class description isnt "[Removed for Content] sorcerors" what they really are against true epics.</p><p>Also I cant confound and befuddle single  true epic mob, so according to SOE´s class description this class is definetly broken.</p>

[SunT]

<div></div><p>Dizzi,</p><p>read the post above.</p><p>I am not god....but the god of EQ2 wrote that description above.</p><p>We meet that description in every facet of the game save for raiding.</p><p>My only request is that we meet it on raids as well.</p><p>All the rest of this conversation is a waste of my time.  Until we meet that description we will be broken on raids and I will be trying to get us fixed.</p><p>You are the one or if you add the other guy who doesn't raid two Illusionists who are happy being broken on raids.</p><p>GOOD FOR YOU.</p><p>I am not and I will continue to fight to get us fixed on raids jsut like I fought to get you fixed in group and solo pre lu13.  No need to thank me or any of my like minded posters for that victory.  We did it for selfish reasons.</p><p>Go ahead and play him and feel good about it.  i am not trying to rain on your parade.  But dont tell me he ain't broke cuz you have no idea.</p><p>For some crazy reason I have to side with the ten other posters who raid every day with just thier Illusionist in first person, no bot or box, not as an alt for fun, but as thier main.  They all seem to think I am right. </p><p>So go play him and have fun and if we do get him fixed on raids, there will be no need to thank us.  If we don't, well you will still be happy, alone as I will be gone, but happy botting your Illusionsit so the class can live on in box form.</p><p> </p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=1755#M1755">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=1755#M1755</a></p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=422&view=by_date_ascending&page=1">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=422&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</a></p><p>Here are a couple more idepth conversations on these issues.</p><p> </p>

[Manyak]

<div></div>AMEN

[MrDiz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div></div><p>Dizzi,</p><p>read the post above.</p><p>I am not god....but the god of EQ2 wrote that description above.</p><p>We meet that description in every facet of the game save for raiding.</p><p>My only request is that we meet it on raids as well.</p></blockquote>I read it. I just couldnt find the bit that said "An Illusionist MEZZES!". I read "Confuse and Befuddle". Seeing as that could mean anything from our MEZ spells to our Illusionary Allies and Pet spells we can both claim that one is an argument for us.<blockquote>You are the one or if you add the other guy who doesn't raid two Illusionists who are happy being broken on raids.</blockquote>No way. The second we are broken Ill scream louder than you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Trust ome on this. I wont even wait till we are broken. Ill scream when they make us just 'undesirable'. Noone was more vocal than I when they [Removed for Content] the guardian class and I assure you the second they try that with any other class I play I will be equally loud!<blockquote>I will continue to fight to get us fixed on raids jsut like I fought to get you fixed in group and solo pre lu13.  No need to thank me or any of my like minded posters for that victory.  We did it for selfish reasons.</blockquote>Good. There are plenty of things on all my chars Id like to see improved actually and Im glad people like you are fighting for them. Dont get me wrong. Just because I think illusionists are great in raids rather than broken doesnt mean there are not things I want done to them. In fact most of the things you ask for, id like <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But thats true of all my chars.<blockquote><p>Go ahead and play him and feel good about it.  i am not trying to rain on your parade.  But dont tell me he ain't broke cuz you have no idea.</p></blockquote>Youre wrong. You have more experience in raiding with an illusionist pre lu13. Thats it. And seeing as thats a different game, it means nothing. Whereas I probably have a better idea of how the illusionist class compares to other classes in raid situations post lu13 than most people including you. Why? Cos ive lived each archetype.<blockquote><p>For some crazy reason I have to side with the ten other posters who raid every day with just thier Illusionist in first person, no bot or box, not as an alt for fun, but as thier main.</p></blockquote>Why does raiding with only 1 toon make you better able to judge the balance between classes than someone who has raided with 4? Currently I raid with my illusionist. I raid with my templar. I also raid with both at the same time. In any logical world im about 1000 times more qualified than you to judge if any of those classes are more 'broken' than any other. Are there some things an illusionist would benefit from? Yes. Is this true of every class? Yes. Does every single class have vocal posters claiming the class is broken? Yes. Does this mean every class is broken? No.