Illusionist DPS

[Manyak]

<div>All ive been hearing over and over again is that Illusionists have [Removed for Content] DPS. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Right now im about to show the parses to prove it</div><div> </div><div><p>You can tell a few ppl were slacking at the raid, but here they are. these were taken from some of the junk lizard mobs in Gates.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><class>         - <name>  <total damage> | <dps></p><div>a raef ew elite warrior 1Allies: (01:06) 308026 | 4,667.06<font color="#ffff00">Illusionist        -  Manyak 36723 | 556.4</font>Ranger           -  Grea 36663 | 555.50Necromancer - Kaif 28549 | 432.56Wizard            - Zebazaren 22966 | 347.97Wizard            - Phenoum 20752 | 314.42Swashbuckler  - Daiji 19747 | 299.20Monk                - Poke 19389 | 293.77Monk                - Wickedfist 18512 | 280.48Warlock           - Rikka 17557 | 266.02Guardian (MT)  - Covenant 14331 | 217.14Conjuror           - Mandehl 14132 | 214.12Bezerker          - Khorne 12670 | 191.97Wizard             - Ravien 11666 | 176.76Troubador        - Elizarain 10710 | 162.27Warden            - Pulpula 5739 | 86.95Swashbuckler   - Runaf 5227 | 79.20Paladin              -Boutros 5002 | 75.79Troubador         -Lazician 3072 | 46.55Mystic               - Nacireen 2551 | 38.65Bezerker           -Talidas 2068 | 31.33Templar            - Jewdar 0 | 0.00Inquisitor           - Elegacy 0 | 0.00Templar            - Azzo 0 | 0.00</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>a raef ew elite warrior 2</div><div>Allies: (01:09) 311322 | 4,511.91Ranger               - Grea 38682 | 560.61Necromancer     - Kaif 31523 | 456.86<font color="#ffff00">Illusionist            -Manyak 30795 | 446.30</font>Warlock             -Rikka 26592 | 385.39Wizard               -Zebazaren 25622 | 371.33Wizard                -Phenoum 25262 | 366.12Conjuror             -Mandehl 22125 | 320.65Monk                   -Poke 20967 | 303.87Guardian (MT)    -Covenant 18453 | 267.43Swashbuckler    -Daiji 17208 | 249.39Monk                   -Wickedfist 15585 | 225.87Wizard               -Ravien 10342 | 149.88Swashbuckler    -Runaf 9857 | 142.86Troubador          -Lazician 8415 | 121.96Bezerker            -Talidas 2503 | 36.28Warden              -Pulpula 2072 | 30.03Paladin               -Boutros 1532 | 22.20Troubador          -Elizarain 1494 | 21.65Templar              -Jewdar 1211 | 17.55Bezerker             -Khorne 1082 | 15.68Mystic                  -Bleu 0 | 0.00Templar               -Azzo 0 | 0.00Inquisitor              -Elegacy 0 | 0.00Mystic                   -Nacireen 0 | 0.00</div><div> </div><div>please, dont ever say that illus are bad DPS. if ur not doing this kind of DPS, its ur own fault.</div><div> </div><div>heres a personal DPS breakdown on one of the slimes. the DPS listing here isn't accurate though......its calculated from the first time the spell is cast to the time the mob dies. In truth, I did only 430 DPS on that mob. And as u can see, that was without using prismatic havoc. the troub decided not to melee so i was stuck with a bunch of casters in the group <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div><img src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/manyak_3aleik/personalparse1.jpg"></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>So as u can see, we are not [Removed for Content] DPS at all. In fact, we really can pump out loads of damage at any time. True in XP groups lots of other classes have the advantage cuz they all have nice big nukes thatll tear a mob down quickly, but in longer battles where evry1 gets stuck watching their reuse timers on their spells, we really shine.</div></div>

[NanthielNightwa]

I heard rangers had 800-900 DPS.(I haven't gotten high into the game yet, but that's what many posts seem to say.)- <u><i>Nanth</i></u>

[zit]

<div></div><div>to pick some random parsing results to show that a class is good or bad dps doesnt prove anything.</div><div> </div><div>to get a more accurate feeling for the dps other classes are able to dish out,</div><div>there is an interesting post with a lot of parses from different guilds to find here:</div><div> </div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=90215">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=90215</a></div><div> </div><div>( you can find warden and fury do 400-500 dps there and they are ...um... tier 5 dps? )</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>from my own parsing and experience i would say that we are solid tier 3 dps.</div><div>we are not able to outdamage any tier 1-2 class on a regular basis.</div><div>thats pretty much what we were said we should be and so i think in regards to dps we are ok.</div><div> </div><div>however given the fact that a lot of our utility is of no use or very limited use on raids and most tier 1-2 classes</div><div>equal us in buffing / debuffing, chanter to be in tier 3 for dps seems not really justified. or the other way round, we really need our</div><div>utility fixed for raids to balance out the lower dps.</div>

[Kurai_Mitsukai]

<div>Wow, you don't use many scouts on your raids. =P</div><div> </div><div>I am used to having at least four rangers at each raid, along with 2 traubs, dirge, two swashes and assasin.  Rangers are always the top four or five of the parse. </div><div> </div><div>That parse may be different if it was a single target epic x4.  Groups of mobs, we can whip out the damage decently, depending on how slackass the rest of the raid is. </div>

[Manyak]

<div></div><div><p>gah dont get me wrong on this. im not trying to say "look we can do just as well as a ranger"...and i even said that these were trash mobs and the raid was slacking on them <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i didnt post up the named parses cuz i was always mezzing on those, so couldnt really DPS at the same time.</p><p> </p><p>im just trying to show MY DPS....the ILLUSIONIST dps, as it is, alone. 500DPS is a pretty decent number to be putting out on average. and i know for a fact that thats better than a warlock's average on a single target. no it aint no ranger, but its still pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good. with that DPS plus some mana regen PLUS dynamism on whoever, we do have a use.</p><p>i mean make a caster group for ur raid....u got ur wizzie, warlock, conj, fury, troubador, then who? double up on any of these classes and its a waste of buffs....a second wizzie for example would be providing more benefit by buffing STR for another group since hed prolly be at capped int already and doesnt need the extra buffs...and with equipment that adds to disruption skill (i.e. Prismatic) he wont really need the benefit of the warlock and troub casting skill buffs. that last spot is made just for the illusionist. that is what our job is. i know its definately not the job wed like, but thats our job. we really do put out enough DPS to be called a DPS class, and have enough of the right buffs to fill up that last spot. one thing is for certain though...if our jobs on raids and our jobs in a group are completely different, then the class is definately broken <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>on and yeh, we usually do have more scouts, but that day we got a few new recruits so we figured why not take em along this time instead of kicking them to the curb as usual <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></div>

[Pins]

<div>Wait, who the hell said our DPS was bad?  I'm an Illusionist not for DPS, but for everything else the class was supposed to offer.  And btw the people on your raid suck a lot if you're beating them <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Padi]

<div></div>It's not that hard to get your numbers up there.  His illusionist numbers are lower than mine are when I'm trying for high dps on a single target.  Of course agro can be an issue if you try too hard.

[trenor]

<div></div>Da mutation those are grp mubs that come with some non true epic adds that are hit by aoe do it on a single epic and post results

[KaltenAlTh]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div>All ive been hearing over and over again is that Illusionists have [Removed for Content] DPS. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Right now im about to show the parses to prove it</div><div> </div><div><p>You can tell a few ppl were slacking at the raid, but here they are. these were taken from some of the junk lizard mobs in Gates.</p><p>So as u can see, we are not [Removed for Content] DPS at all. In fact, we really can pump out loads of damage at any time. True in XP groups lots of other classes have the advantage cuz they all have nice big nukes thatll tear a mob down quickly, but in longer battles where evry1 gets stuck watching their reuse timers on their spells, we really shine.</p><hr></div></blockquote><p>I agree with the premise of your post that we as a class are not 'gimped' at damage.  What you've done though is post an <strong>AE fight</strong>.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find any illusionist that said we are needing more AE damage.  Oh, I'm sure no one would mind if we got more AE damage but we don't need it.  I think most all Illusionist would agree we are pretty good at AE damage. <strong><em><u> AE fights are not our problem.</u></em></strong>  On some of the zone trash PPR fights I'm getting 2000dps for AE damage.</p><p>It can be argued that our Single Target damage needs improvement.  I for one do not feel a need for much if any changes.  If the devs did decide on giving us more single target damage, I'd want it to be done with longer lasting, harder hitting mental dots.</p><p>The main area that I think nearly all Illusionist think we are 'gimped' is on Epic Raid CC and Utility.  WIth a few exceptions in each zone their is no need to ever CC, stuns don't work, stiffles don't work, power draining is pointless, we don't have an agro transfer like Coecers ect. ect.  These are the types of things that need to be addressed by the dev's first and formost!</p><p> </p><p>I'm reluctant to say something because when I posted my guild parse.  One of the first thing I thought was 'OMG <em>someone is gonna make fun of someone on the raid and how bad they did</em>'.  I know that poeple could have been AFK on auto attack for such easy encounters, maybe people just relaxing..... I know my own guild is pretty darn low on DPS compared to most guilds but ....ummm...  your guild makes mine look like DPS gods.  On the first fight you have 4 melee classes doing under 100dps?  That's insanely bad.  and your zerkers are doing 15 and 36 dps in the 2nd fight?  Come on!  Your swashy are doing 300'ish dps, a more typical dps for them is 700.  A fairly typical DPS rating for a Predator class is 900dps your ranger is doing 550'ish and you only have 1 predator class.  You don't have many DPS classes on the raid and most of the classes you do have on the raid are not even measuring up to 1/2 of the damage that I would expect.   Maybe it's a function of us using different Parsers or Maybe they just relaxing as I said above.  /shrug.  But man looking at your numbers just makes my "This ain't right radar" go crazy!</p><p><span class="time_text">Take a look at this parse. Swashy = 803.25, Assassin = 744.07 (bad fight for him), Zerker = 544.48, Zerker2 = 407.65</span></p><p><span class="time_text"><a target="_blank" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~shawndwire/1_11wolan.html"><font color="#c8c1b5">http://home.earthlink.net/~shawndwire/1_11wolan.html</font></a></span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:50 PM</span></p>

[Manyak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div></div><div><p>...and i even said that these were trash mobs and the raid was slacking on them</p><hr></div></blockquote><p> </p><p>guys cmon, do i gotta say this every [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] post? fine then when we go to courts later today ill post a parse from sunchild...then yall can get to see that one-target DPS along with what the guild usually does. i mean cmon, if a zerker is doing 30DPS u know thats nothing but atuoattack and aint usual.</p>

[zit]

<div></div><div></div><p>i do not get what point you are trying to make.</p><p>that we are not [Removed for Content] dps?</p><p>well, usually we are right behind the tier 1 and tier 2 dps classes (means behind predator, summoner and sorcerer) - always provided that they are equally equipped and equally dedicated and put into a group that supports them equally well. for a tier 3 dps class i would say thats not [Removed for Content], thats exactly what it should be. but most illu do not argue that we are able to reach tier 3 dps anyways. so whats your point? to prove something we never called into question?</p><p>or do you want to show that we are doing dps above our designed role? again we are behind tier 1 and tier 2 dps classes usually so i do not see us do too much damage.</p><p>or do you want to show that we are not useless on raids and can stand our own compared to other classes? if so, a dps parse alone is prolly the last thing that could convince me as the whole picture needs to be taken into account.</p><p> </p><p>you post a parsing result and you point out that its taken against trash mobs while your raid was slacking. thats fine. but what is this good for? what do you want to demonstrate??</p><p> </p><p>(and btw. that your warrior are only doing 30 dps with autoattack is a bit surprising. our warrior are doing 200-300 with autoattack alone.)</p><p>Message Edited by zitha on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:45 AM</span></p>

[KaltenAlTh]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<blockquote dir="ltr"><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div></div><div><p>...and i even said that these were trash mobs and the raid was slacking on them</p><hr></div></blockquote><p>guys cmon, do i gotta say this every [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] post? fine then when we go to courts later today ill post a parse from sunchild...then yall can get to see that one-target DPS along with what the guild usually does. i mean cmon, if a zerker is doing 30DPS u know thats nothing but atuoattack and aint usual.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Again I agree with your original declaration that we are not 'gimped' on dps.  What you've done wrong here is tried to "<em><strong>show the parses to prove it</strong></em>".  But you used what you yourself admits is bad data and even used an AE fight that no illusionists ever said we where bad at.  Part of what you've done by posting the DPS of every class in order is show that you are on or at the top of the list.  But people here recognized that the reason you are on the list where you are is becuase of poor data.  If you had just posted your own DPS without a list of other classes you'd of been fine.  No one would have troubled you.  I would have said something like "<em>that's ballpark to what I do on DPS for those fights, only 100dps behind me  /smile</em>" and left it at that.</p><p>I'm looking forward seeing the results of the Sunchild parse.  Post how your guild does that fight so that we get a presective on the data. I.E. Jousted, ranged only, 2 MT or 1 ect...</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:07 AM</span></p>

[SunT]

<div></div><p>Last night in SC I was able to maintain high 400 to low 500 on single target Lions and Sentinals over a long period of time.  I did aver 1k many times on third floor ring and the groups on second floor first round.</p><p>There was a Troub in the group so I am sure they added quite a bit to me.</p><p>I used to track around 300-400 consistently and thought that was it but I figured out how to push it another 100DPS.</p><p>Skip Debuffing and Skip additional Power regen/conservation spells and hit the quick nuke on every refresh.</p><p>So basically throw out the chanter duties, succumb to the worst regen of all regen classes and you can DPS quite well.</p><p>My question is....what class am I then?</p><p>If I play my Chanter as a Chanter, he is T2-3 DPS at best.  If I play him as a [Removed for Content] Wizard, he is a [Removed for Content] Wizard at T4 DPS.</p><p>My numbers were only this high since I was in a group with a seasoned Zerk who gave me a target all through the fights.</p><p>One major gripe I have about our DPS is the dependence of another toon for targeting if not in MT group.  Very frustrating and cumbersome.  Dangerous as well.  If I hit a group with a lucky Proc compounded by another class Proc, I get aggro...but I dont know until I am getting beat on or dead.  All because I cannot target directly.</p><p> </p>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div></div><p>One major gripe I have about our DPS is the dependence of another toon for targeting if not in MT group.  Very frustrating and cumbersome.  Dangerous as well.  If I hit a group with a lucky Proc compounded by another class Proc, I get aggro...but I dont know until I am getting beat on or dead.  All because I cannot target directly.</p><hr></blockquote>Yea this is a major gripe for me too.   The reliance of needed another person to do dps on can be frustrating.  Epsecially, when your guild likes to put me in the "caster group".

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Azamien-Dermorate wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div></div><p>One major gripe I have about our DPS is the dependence of another toon for targeting if not in MT group.  Very frustrating and cumbersome.  Dangerous as well.  If I hit a group with a lucky Proc compounded by another class Proc, I get aggro...but I dont know until I am getting beat on or dead.  All because I cannot target directly.</p><hr></blockquote>Yea this is a major gripe for me too.   The reliance of needed another person to do dps on can be frustrating.  Epsecially, when your guild likes to put me in the "caster group".<hr></blockquote>Inform them you could really use a melee in the group to improve your DPS. Plus think about all those casters in the group, and how all their proc buffs going(you know, the ones for the melee?) to waste without a melee. Get a brigand honestly so you never have any issues with the melee out of AoEs either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SunT]

<div></div><p>Yes Pinski, good advice.  I do this too.  Brigands are great since they don't joust.</p><p>I am still at the mercy of the Brigands target.  If he is slow targetting I lose a round or two.  Or if he is targetting the little mob, I can't get my spells off before it is dead.</p>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div></div><p>Yes Pinski, good advice.  I do this too.  Brigands are great since they don't joust.</p><p>I am still at the mercy of the Brigands target.  If he is slow targetting I lose a round or two.  Or if he is targetting the little mob, I can't get my spells off before it is dead.</p><hr></blockquote>Well, toss it up on him, then while it's still casting, tab to the big guy, and start casting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yah it requires more work, but hey we're chanters, we already know how to tab a bunch to get to our target that we're going to mez, so it's not a big deal.

[tawek]

<div>DaMutation,</div><div> </div><div>Thanks for the post.  It gives a lot of information other posted parses haven't, such as the break-down of damage for each spell type.</div><div> </div><div>Don't be discouraged by all the negative posts.  I'm sure they don't mean to flame.  They're probably frustrated like we all are that our utility is mostly useless on raids, which makes the most interesting non-raid class one of the least interesting in raids.</div><div> </div><div>There will be some lower level illusionists lurking in these forums who will find your parse interesting and encouraging, and maybe give them ideas for squeezing out a bit more damage from their spells.</div><div> </div><div>What I'd be really interested to see is your parse of damage on a single target tough epic.  Looking forward to it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[SunT]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>tawek21 wrote:<div>DaMutation,</div><div> </div><div>Thanks for the post.  It gives a lot of information other posted parses haven't, such as the break-down of damage for each spell type.</div><div> </div><div>Don't be discouraged by all the negative posts.  I'm sure they don't mean to flame.  They're probably frustrated like we all are that our utility is mostly useless on raids, which makes the most interesting non-raid class one of the least interesting in raids.</div><div> </div><div>There will be some lower level illusionists lurking in these forums who will find your parse interesting and encouraging, and maybe give them ideas for squeezing out a bit more damage from their spells.</div><div> </div><div>What I'd be really interested to see is your parse of damage on a single target tough epic.  Looking forward to it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote><p>Single target Epics are what I was talking about.  I can do 1k plus on groups.</p><p>Last night NOT in a group with a Troub, I did sustained mid 500's on lions and sents in SC.  Max group DPS was 1440 on the 3rd floor mummies.  The parser did not include my Construct. </p><p>Just me and a Monk in the group. </p><p>On a 'Tough' Epic, I did over 1K on the SC third floor named(can't remember name).  But on Goliathan I was back in a full group and I debuffed and hit my power spell a couple times in case the fight was long so only about 400 even though it was multi target.  They aren't really tough but that is all I have parsed.</p><p>If you don't play like a Chanter you can do decent DPS.</p>

[KaltenAlTh]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><hr></div><div>SunTsu wrote:If you don't play like a Chanter you can do decent DPS.</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>Not like we have alot of other options on raids, I'm in 'pure dps mode' on 80% or more of my raid fights these days.</p><p>I don't bother to use dismay except for a few of the harder fights like the Black Queen and Sunchild battle.  I only CC maybe 1 in 10 epic battles.  I never use the power drain/transfer thing or savante becuase no one ever runs out of power.</p><p>Certainly not where I want this class to be but it's the sad reality of the situation ATM.  I do take some comfort that I'm able to outdamage nearly every class but Predators nearly every epic fight.</p><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:21 PM</span></p>

[trenor]

<div>Kalt how do you out damage summoners, and sorcerers in single target dps true raid mob?</div><div>Fiz</div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>trenor wrote:<div>Kalt how do you out damage summoners, and sorcerers in single target dps true raid mob?</div><div>Fiz</div><hr></blockquote>Bruiser, and a troubador, all ya need to out-damage a sorc or a summoner in a single target, or AoE fight.

[trenor]

<div>You will still be 200-400 behind if not more on a true raid mob because of length of the fight even with a bruils and troub in your grp.  Lol, also dont forget the other caster classes will be in your grp also gettting the same buffs.  Yep, that means the summoners and coercers.  If there is a troubador no sane raid leader will tie up a space with a bruiser.  Even if ya had a bruiser your dps will be at least 30% lower then a summoner or sorceror class on a true epic.  If it is not please have the raid leader discuss with those classes how to properly do dps.</div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>trenor wrote:<div>You will still be 200-400 behind if not more on a true raid mob because of length of the fight even with a bruils and troub in your grp.  Lol, also dont forget the other caster classes will be in your grp also gettting the same buffs.  Yep, that means the summoners and coercers.  If there is a troubador no sane raid leader will tie up a space with a bruiser.  Even if ya had a bruiser your dps will be at least 30% lower then a summoner or sorceror class on a true epic.  If it is not please have the raid leader discuss with those classes how to properly do dps.</div><hr></blockquote>Hrm, you're either not very good as an Illusionist, or I dunno, never tried with a troubador and a bruiser in the same group before. Coercers wouldn't be in a caster group anyway. Summoners in a caster group? Have you seen their proc buffs, and how often they cast compared to Sorcs and Chanters? Hrm, no they'd be in a melee group. Spell Proc buffs proc the most off an Chanter, then a Sorc, then a Summoner. They very rarely go off on any other class(well except priests but they dont count <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). But considering putting out 8k of damage, 15s later, another 3k, and then 8k, 15s later, and so on, PLUS all the normal damage we do, not to mention that's 8 spells going off, which means add another 1.2k(3x400) from dynamism and 1.2k(3x400) from aria, so that's 10k at the start, then 4k 15s later, and so on. I parse around 400 without prismatic havoc. I toss in prismatic havoc with a bruiser and there is no tank(except a paladin if I was in the same group, but that's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]) that will hold aggro off of me. I consisently peel when using it, and boy is it fun on the junk mobs in Silent City <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.On mobs with fire or ice immunities, I am above wizards in most cases. I can't do anything like a ranger can, but I can get to within 75% of a ranger, when things go well for me and I am only DPSing. Precision of the Maestro and Icebound Gift make for crazy DPS that gets attributed to me, even if it isn't truley my DPS. In the 12s icebound gift is up, I can sometimes get lucky and have it go off with Prismatic Havoc with Crushing Fury. So that's another 2.4k damage added on that. Maestro up too? Another 2.4k there. No other class can has the ability to push out a 10k "nuke" every 30s that can top off at 15k. Toss in our Nukes occasinaly too for another 1k every 4.5s. The DPS you push out is quite crazy if you actually try and figure it all out.

[trenor]

<div></div><p>to get the maximum benefit of a bruiser it is used on grp mobs show me one parse where you hit 8k in one combat art with a bruiser that was on a single target.  I havent yet and now and then i get lucky this is with all master spells except 2.  Procs off of conjuror are insane (mage pets because they are considered part of the grp and gfet buffs)  Also since the mage pets parse average 200 dps higher than assasin thye should be up on raid mobs not immune to fire.  Our procs are ok on trouby spells in order to maintain the dps that you are speakin of must be trash mobs because the if you are nuking like that and not maintaining mana you will soon be out as to the ineeficeincy of our spell cost versus damage.  Do not presum to know that i do not know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I am talking about buddy.  I am more then right oin this one and i wanna see everyone else post there 500-600 dps on a true raid mob that lasts more then 30 seconds.  It's not gonna happen with a bruiser 450 and a troub !!!!  With a lucky spike on bruiser maybe 550 but that will not happen every fight and also your average dps will be 300-400 with bruiser with mostly all master spells.  Without bruise it will be 300 ish.  Without troubador or bruise 250-300 depending on procs of dyna.  </p><p> </p><p>Please feel free to blow smoke up someone elses [Removed for Content] ty.</p>

[Pins]

Crushing Fury hits 8 times in 1 second. Prismatic Havoc against a raid mob that has been debuffed for damage hits for 1k. Due to the procs, it will proc 8 times, therefore 8k damage, plus other procs. So obviously you do not know about the bruiser single target spell. Most mobs will die faster than we can burn through all of our power, so why would it matter how efficient we are? There's more than enough DPS for us to drop into the mob by the time it dies before our power goes to 0.

[trenor]

<div>Sorcerors in my guild single target parse 600-900 dps</div><div> </div><div>summoners parse 800-1000</div><div> </div><div>I never parsed 600 single target yet there is absolutely no way whatsoever for an enchanter to consistantly out dps a summoner class or sorceror class on single target dps.  You are flat out wrong.</div><div> </div><div>Thank you for your time</div>

[trenor]

<div></div>Furthermorer, crushing fury has to hit all 8 times which it never does maybe 4 whats it per hit ? oh must be 1k and instantly refreshable.  id say we can pull a conservative 4k out of it but never 8k in one hit. 

[SunT]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>trenor wrote:<div></div><p>to get the maximum benefit of a bruiser it is used on grp mobs show me one parse where you hit 8k in one combat art with a bruiser that was on a single target.  I havent yet and now and then i get lucky this is with all master spells except 2.  Procs off of conjuror are insane (mage pets because they are considered part of the grp and gfet buffs)  Also since the mage pets parse average 200 dps higher than assasin thye should be up on raid mobs not immune to fire.  Our procs are ok on trouby spells in order to maintain the dps that you are speakin of must be trash mobs because the if you are nuking like that and not maintaining mana you will soon be out as to the ineeficeincy of our spell cost versus damage.  Do not presum to know that i do not know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I am talking about buddy.  I am more then right oin this one and i wanna see everyone else post there 500-600 dps on a true raid mob that lasts more then 30 seconds.  It's not gonna happen with a bruiser 450 and a troub !!!!  With a lucky spike on bruiser maybe 550 but that will not happen every fight and also your average dps will be 300-400 with bruiser with mostly all master spells.  Without bruise it will be 300 ish.  Without troubador or bruise 250-300 depending on procs of dyna.  </p><p> </p><p>Please feel free to blow smoke up someone elses [Removed for Content] ty.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I am not sure I understand your rant. </p><p>Are you saying I am lying about doing sustained 550 DPS on single target epics?</p><p>I most certainly am.  I parsed all last night on SC lions and sents.  The other Illusionist in my guild an I were talking about it all night.  On groups I hit a high of over 1400 and several times over 1k but almost every fight that I could focus on DPS I did over 500.  None of these logs included my Construct who is over 100 by himself(debatable depending on how you look at him)</p><p>There was a Coercer running Parse logs and posting and I was not listed in the top ten so I started my parser up and started posting my numbers.  I was then added to the raid parser and started to show on nearly every battle.  Most of the time over 500.  This is me and a Monk only in the group.  No other classes.  Single target epics 60X4. (I won't venture a guess as to why I was not on the original parse log...)</p><p>We absolutely can do 500 plus on single target and maintain it. </p><p>My self buffed INT is 419 without fleet and most of my spells are master all others apept3.</p><p>If you want tips as to how to maximize your DPS I can give you some.</p>

[trenor]

<div></div>nope that can be attainable with a troub and bruiser i am saying that you can not consistantly out dps a sorceror or summoner class which is what pinski stated.

[SunT]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>trenor wrote:<div></div>nope that can be attainable with a troub and bruiser i am saying that you can not consistantly out dps a sorceror or summoner class which is what pinski stated.<hr></blockquote><p>Nooooo....</p><p>It is attainable with <strong>just me and a Monk</strong>.  Only 2 of us in G4 at the time.  If you add the plethera of other caster procs that I could have had it would have been much higher.</p><p>I will however grant you the point about the Sorc/Summoner.  IF both are equal in spell and gear quality and IF both are played to an equal degree of skill....then we cannot compete.</p><p>Sorc and Summoner are far better DPS.</p><p>But we are formidable if played properly.</p>

[KaltenAlTh]

<blockquote><hr>trenor wrote:<div>Kalt how do you out damage summoners, and sorcerers in single target dps true raid mob?</div><div>Fiz</div><hr></blockquote><p>We only have 1 summoner type in the guild a Conjurer, she is nearly always in the MT group for the mitigation buffs and does not benifit from the proc buffs I get in the "caster DPS" group.  She never has Dynamism, never has troubador procs (Dissonant note, Precise note ), never has that Wizard procs (Icebound Gift), never has the Warlock (Seal of Ebon Thought).  I don't know what lvl she has her spells at, I'll try and ask tonight.  Don't get me wrong she does beat me on DPS on fights but not often.</p><p>I have not got any new parses in the last 2 week.  The logs I have from about 2 weeks ago had Prismatic Shock adept1 and I've upgraded to Adept3 now.  At that time, for single target epic mobs I was getting 400-450dps and was not maximizing my damage.  I let the dots run out without refreshing them right away, I let Prismatic Havoc go uncast when it was up a few times and didn't get extra procs from a bruiser, I didn't have color shower running... ect. you get the idea.  I'm willing to bet when I go to my raid tonight that I'll be doing 550'ish dps in single target fights.  If I get a few nicely worked out Prismatic Havock chains done with my buiser friend I may get 700+ dps.  That's educated guessing though, Admittedly I have yet to do this and produce the logs to proove it.  Maybe I can't do it.  We will see soon enough.</p><p>I do not know why I'm beating the Sorc types that are in my group.  The parses I posted on the board here earlier shows only 1 Sorc type on my raid that night (usually have 4) I beat him one fight, he beat me one.  I'd have to say I beat them more often then they beat me when I'm in DPS mode.  I'll pay more attention to this tonight and let you guys know.</p><p> </p>

[trenor]

<div>Hmm but maybe hal;f the tiome they are giving shards? being that there is only one? Sounds fairly low to me most average 800ish dps.  Dont know if they take a pet buff away for anothe buff in mt grp cant really say for sure.</div><div> </div><div>Fiz</div><div> </div>

[KaltenAlTh]

<div></div><div></div><div>Ok go check my thread name "<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=10333"><font color="#dda600">Raid logs to look at my DPS</font></a>" for an update.</div><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:53 AM</span></p>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KaltenAlThor wrote:<blockquote><hr>trenor wrote:<div>Kalt how do you out damage summoners, and sorcerers in single target dps true raid mob?</div><div>Fiz</div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>I do not know why I'm beating the Sorc types that are in my group.  The parses I posted on the board here earlier shows only 1 Sorc type on my raid that night (usually have 4) I beat him one fight, he beat me one.  I'd have to say I beat them more often then they beat me when I'm in DPS mode.  I'll pay more attention to this tonight and let you guys know.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Maybe because they are holding back so as not to pull agro?  This is the inherant flaw with looking at parsed records is that you dont actually get to ask each player "where you trying as hard as I was?"   Some times players get distracted by RL aka phone/kids/wife or husband and are only half paying attention on a raid.     Pick any 5 minute interval on a 3 hour raid and its likely that at least one of your dps people is distracted and not give it thier all (and like I said in some cases for fear of pulling agro)</p><p>As most any statistician would tell you that the only way to overcome such anomalies is to take complied results spanning not just one fight but many fights, hundreads or thosands of fights, to get a true idea of what the "average dps of the average raiding illusionist" and how that compares to other classes and see where we truely fall in the dps line up.   </p><p>Having the an ideal set up with bruiser/troub/fury in a group with an illusionist will definaly help your dps but I dont think that for most of us that you could say that happens often.  Personally speaking it has never happend to me that I happen to have the above "ideal" setup.  Unless the goal of the raid leader is to set up a group just to maximize a chanters dps then it by luck to have this exact setup.  I often find myself in an all caster group or in the all scout group there to provide power regen and many variations of those that dont fully maximize my potential dps ... big surpise that the raid isn't built around me I know but thats the way it works.  I still manage to pull in decient dps and last night in PPR I had spiked dps of 1800+ (on big groups of failed raiders) and an approx. average dps of 350-400 on other encounters.  Now in a zone like courts that average would drop like a rock when faced with multiple mobs that are mental immune.</p><p>So if you can manage to pull off 550 dps on single target mobs I would congradualte you Kalten but I would also remind you that its a statistical anomonly.  Untill you can pull that kinda dps on every encounter no matter your group make up, it doesnt show us a clear representation of how you perform on an "average raid".  It obviously doesnt represent the average raiding illusionist's dps on an "average x4 encounter".</p><p>Personally, I still feel that our dps should be higher then it is now seeing as how none of our CC tools (the balance to our lack of dps) dont work on epics.   Ofcourse if I had a choise I would prefer that those tools did work and were usefulll in some way in raids, other then mezing the occasinal trash add; but I think its more likely that our dps would be improved before they gave us working utility for raiding.</p>

[vachira]

<div></div><p>Im curious as to whether your doing any crowd control while getting that kind of DPS  When Im on raid I can do some massive DPS if I am not involved in crowd control and just a note Im frequently doing crowd control lol.  I have not checked what I usually do, just because I dont want to worry about whether or not Im matching up with everyone else on raid. </p><p> </p><p>Now its a different story if  Im on single mob, I will nuke and nuke and nuke lol.</p><p> </p><p>Calitha</p><p>Lvl 60 Illusionist-Oasis server</p><p>Alternate Eclipse</p>

[KaltenAlTh]

<div></div><p>I though I was being very clear on this.</p><p>These logs are from when I'm in "Max DPS" mode and not doing any CC and not facing any mental immunity ect....</p><p> </p><p>There are several fights where I'm doing multiple duties like debuffs, CC and Damage.  My DPS is much lower then what I've posted here for those types of fights.</p><p> </p>

[Manyak]

<div>ok i tried parsing sunchild, and had some1 else in guild do it along with me. we got completely different results for everyone. so i tried it on more and more mobs, and eventually got this on lockjaw:</div><div> </div><div>Allies: (01:29) 79432 | 891.89Illusionist (Me) 79432 | 891.89Wizzie 0 | 0.00Bruiser 0 | 0.00Bruiser 0 | 0.00Monk 0 | 0.00Wizzie 0 | 0.00Necromancer 0 | 0.00Troubador 0 | 0.00</div><div> </div><div>this parser is bugged as hell. i know that i wasnt the only one attacking in the raid, and i KNOW that we had alot more than these ppl. so just ignore everything i said before =) and i know it didnt split encounters cuz i reset it before pull and told it not to end combat no matter what.</div><div> </div><div>but i do believe 891DPS is somewhat correct (one mob), had a bruiser and troub in group, and tank was holding aggro with both a dirge and coercer for aggro buffs. and i think evry1 knows what happens with a bruiser in group =)</div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div>ok i tried parsing sunchild, and had some1 else in guild do it along with me. we got completely different results for everyone. so i tried it on more and more mobs, and eventually got this on lockjaw:</div><div> </div><div>Allies: (01:29) 79432 | 891.89Illusionist (Me) 79432 | 891.89Wizzie 0 | 0.00Bruiser 0 | 0.00Bruiser 0 | 0.00Monk 0 | 0.00Wizzie 0 | 0.00Necromancer 0 | 0.00Troubador 0 | 0.00</div><div> </div><div>this parser is bugged as hell. i know that i wasnt the only one attacking in the raid, and i KNOW that we had alot more than these ppl. so just ignore everything i said before =) and i know it didnt split encounters cuz i reset it before pull and told it not to end combat no matter what.</div><div> </div><div>but i do believe 891DPS is somewhat correct (one mob), had a bruiser and troub in group, and tank was holding aggro with both a dirge and coercer for aggro buffs. and i think evry1 knows what happens with a bruiser in group =)</div><hr></blockquote>The reason why you missed everybody else's damage is because you were too far away from them, and out of the aoe. Be a man, jump into the AoE, and fight inside it, so you can see everybody's damage, or at the very least, stay 20m from the mob so you can see all the damage numbers flying. That is why you missed all the damage from everybody else.

[Manyak]

<div>that would prolly also be why my first parse is so [Removed for Content]. im always far back</div>

[zit]

<div></div><p>sometimes the parser can be plain out bugged and doesnt show any result or wrong result for ppl like the one above.</p><p>this doesnt always be due to distance. i had it happen that i was solo fighting mobs and the parser would show 0 dps for me. i had it happen that all caster in raid were gathered close and for half of them the dps did show zero although log showed they were doing dmg.</p><p>i use combat stats and it only occurs very very rare, once every hundret fights maybe if at all. a guildie uses a different parsing programm and it happens more common for him, i forgot which one he uses though. if they both work we get similar results usually within 20dps +/-</p><p> </p><p>however the parsing result still doesnt answer the question whose dps it actually shows. as everyone may judge it different, this would need to be discussed first.</p><p>is dissonante note illu dps or is it troub dps? if it is illu dps, can we then claim dynamism on other ppl as our dps or wouldnt  it also belong to them? is prismatic havoc illu dps or is it melee dps? we happen to have it shown in log and parser as chanter dps, but what if SOE decided to change it like they did with the very similar wizard proc buff? that havoc shows on the caster is more the exception than the norm for proc buffs and we could ask now why wasnt it changed too? or how would we feel if it got changed? would we mind not to show as high parsing results anymore although the actual dps wouldnt be any different?</p>

[Manyak]

<div></div>if they changed it to count as some1 else's DPS id prolly be really [Removed for Content]. Not cuz i dont get to get my numbers up high or whatevr, but because it just makes it WAY too easy for the other melee classes to grab aggro. Would make it 100% impossible to cast it on a predator or rogue, cuz they usually stay JUST at the point where they are about to grab aggro. Adding another 1.8k spike damage every ~15 sec just makes it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed for em. So depending on the situation, it might actually mean less overall DPS for the raid.

[Impetus]

Yeah but if they made it cross-raid, too, you could cast it on the tank. And it would add to the tank's aggro. That would be pretty nice.

[Manyak]

<div></div>Id def have to agree with ya there

[KaltenAlTh]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p><font size="1"></font></p><p>Moved this to another thread.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:29 AM</span></p>

[Nupr]

<div></div><p>This thread is kinda silly.  So what you're trying to say is that, IF you have a bruiser in your group and IF you have a troubadour in your group and IF you have a brigand to debuff magic mit and IF you tab target like crazy and IF you click your spells as soon as they refresh except for Brainburst, THEN you might come close to rivaling the damage that some of these other classes do by just assisting on the MT and clicking a button when it refreshes.  And we're okay with that?</p><p>I'm semi-happy with the class and I love to see the crazy amount of havoc procs when the zerker rampages or the bruiser does whatever those thingies that he does.  But building a raid group for the simple fact of optimizing one classes mediocre DPS is, well, silly.</p>

[zit]

<div></div><p>what i find even more silly, or well, rather sad, is the fact of such a thread even existing.</p><p>fury in optimal group, squeezing out every bit of their dps, can easily do equal dps to illusionists in raid situation. i still dont see them multiple threads running with discussing the best tactics and group set ups how to reach top dps etc. - why? cause they dont have any need to compensate their core role. occasionly they will switch to dps mode but its not their main activitiy on raids.</p><p>instead of illus discussing the best use of our CC spells, how to optimize our "enchanterish" abilities, maybe even group enhancements or debuffs etc. we are forced to focus our attention on how to become a 2nd rate dps class to make us feel useful. for me this is a poor substitute to what i picked the class for and to the way i wished i were able to contribute to raids.</p>

[KaltenAlTh]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Nupren wrote:<div></div><p>This thread is kinda silly.  So what you're trying to say is that, IF you have a bruiser in your group and IF you have a troubadour in your group and IF you have a brigand to debuff magic mit and IF you tab target like crazy and IF you click your spells as soon as they refresh except for Brainburst, THEN you might come close to rivaling the damage that some of these other classes do by just assisting on the MT and clicking a button when it refreshes.  And we're okay with that?</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Hold on a second here.  These high DPS classes (i'll use predators for example) are not just walking up to mobs and doing 800+dps with autoattack assisting the MT.  They do these kind of numbers IF they have multiple sets of high end weapons, IF they have shaman buffs, IF they have dirge in the group, IF they have poisons and/or arrows purchased, IF they possition correctly on a mob to max damage, IF they joust both in and out at the right time, IF they use the right sequence of attacks that don't pull agro but maximizes damage, IF they have haste items on, IF they have haste from a member of the group, IF they have procs from other group members.</p><p>How is that any different then us working hard to maximize damage?</p><p> </p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p></p><hr></blockquote><blockquote><p>zitha wrote:</p><p>instead of illus discussing the best use of our CC spells, how to optimize our "enchanterish" abilities, maybe even group enhancements or debuffs etc. we are forced to focus our attention on how to become a 2nd rate dps class to make us feel useful. for me this is a poor substitute to what i picked the class for and to the way i wished i were able to contribute to raids.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree wholeheartedly that we should have more focus on our uniqueness of being a enchanter type on raids.  I think every enchanter type shares your wish in this way but we live with the cards we have been delt for now.  It's pitiful but I'll be trying to squeeze every playable once of skill I can out of what I have to work with.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>P.S. If you use a "Caster DPS" group on raids then you dam well best have a troubador for the group, not having one would be nearly as silly has having a MainTank group with no healers on the raid.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class="date_text">02-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:45 AM</span></p>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Nupren wrote:<div></div><p>This thread is kinda silly.  So what you're trying to say is that, IF you have a bruiser in your group and IF you have a troubadour in your group and IF you have a brigand to debuff magic mit and IF you tab target like crazy and IF you click your spells as soon as they refresh except for Brainburst, THEN you might come close to rivaling the damage that some of these other classes do by just assisting on the MT and clicking a button when it refreshes.  And we're okay with that?</p><p>I'm semi-happy with the class and I love to see the crazy amount of havoc procs when the zerker rampages or the bruiser does whatever those thingies that he does.  But building a raid group for the simple fact of optimizing one classes mediocre DPS is, well, silly.</p><hr></blockquote>Considering we're a Tier 3 DPS class, and if we have an ideal group we jump into Tier 1 DPS, then [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right we should be talking about. Plus, the fact is, we also optimize other people in the group as well. In an ideal caster DPS Group, you're going to have a Troubador(spell procs/power regen), Sorc, Sorc, Sorc, Priest, Illusionist(more power regen). Fact is, Sorcs run out of power really fast, so they're going to need to be setup so that they have as much power as possible, along with de-aggro and spell procs. And honestly, putting a fighter/scout in a caster group is silly, although for a brigand it can be useful because of their extra hate gain, so you could toss a brigand in place of the priest in the group. Also you don't really need a Fury in the group, because most casters in a raid should be able to cap themselves out other ways, like potions, food, rings, etc.Sure it'd be GREAT to be talking about optimizing enchanter stuff we do on raids, but let's face it. We're a DPS class when raiding, that's what SoE wants us to be.

[Manyak]

<div>The way i see it, if we do T3 DPS on our own, T2 DPS with a bruiser, and T1 DPS with a troub and bruiser, that just means that we are a little more flexible than other classes. For example, a Templar is always better replaced with another healer unless its in the tank group. But with illus on the other hand, if there are certain buffs another group needs (***SPOILER*** such as mana cloak in PPR, and use a bruiser as one of the tanks), we can be put in a different group without much of an overall loss in effectiveness to the raid. What the caster group loses in terms of mana, we would partially make up by doing T1 or T2 DPS. And therefore, we prove beneficial in either case.</div>