Illusionist haste vs Coercer Damage buff....the FAQ

[Sorrowson]

<div><div>Hello.</div><div> </div><div>I posted this on the Coercerboards too but would be nice hear ur opinion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>I read many comparisions between Illus /Coercers and many mention charm, mezz, stiffledifference etc, but i think i never seen Haste vs Dps discussion. I might be totally wrong, so if i am please correct me but this is how i understood it:</div><div> </div><div>Coercer</div><div>At M1 Velocity boost autoattack damage (i e how hard autoattack hits for) with 65%. It does NOT spead up swing rate of weapons it ONLY boosts hit damage on autoattack.</div><div> </div><div>Illusionist</div><div>At M1 Illus haste buff (dont even know name hehe) boosts autoattack speed by around 57% (please give me the correct % here). It does NOT boost hit damage it ONLY boosts swing rate of weapons.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Pros/conc haste vs DPS:</div><div>If Illus haste would have been 65% like the Coercer DPS buff is it would have been easy to say "Ooh well 65% more damage per hit equals 65% more hits with same damage, over a 1 min period the dps increase will be same"... but thats not completely true.</div><div> </div><div>First off all a DPS buff is far better than a haste buff if u place it on MT cos it will NOT bring more ripostes from mob onto tank or more DS damage on tank from mob.</div><div>A haste buff = far better if u have procing weapons or some proc spell cast on you cos it will give you additional damage from not only the haste but also the procs..</div><div> </div><div>Then you also have to factor in DPS % raisecap and minimum weapon delay. This is where i start to fail...so my questions are:</div><div> </div><div>1. Do we know what minimum delay is? Is it a % reduction of base delay or is it like a cap so no weps swing faster than i e per 0.7 sec.</div><div> </div><div>2. Do we know what the damage increase cap is? Is it like a % max we can raise it or is it like a weapon cant do more than XXX amount of damage when autoattacking.</div><div> </div><div>Thanx for your helpfull replyes <img border="0" height="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width="16"></div><div> </div><div>Cheers</div><div> </div><div>//Darling Charming, 60 Coercer Splitaw</div></div>

[Fizwi]

The final illusionist haste is called Legerity.The caps for both haste and DPS were, last time I checked, +100%.No idea if there's a minimum delay, as I've seen no conclusive parses.Finally, one element you left out -- it's much easier to reach a haste cap than a DPS cap, between haste items, and class popularity (Illu > Coercer, monk > bruiser, zerkers very common)...The truth: I'm not terribly annoyed, as haste still has some glamour about it left over from EQ1, and my conc is usually used for other things anyway.<div></div>

[zit]

<div></div><div></div><p>rumor has it that minimum delay for weapons is capped at 0.5 or so. even if true this shouldnt really be a problem as haste is capped at 100% anyways and i dont think there is a weapon with base delay faster than 1.</p><p>proc chance is not tied to hits though, haste has no influence on how often a weapon will proc.</p><p>which makes dps increasing buffs the preferable buff, especially for tanks like you mentioned.</p><p>unless of course a class is close to max already. which again is easier to reach with haste.</p><p> </p><p>i think haste / dps increase most times comes in subclass pair.</p><p>illu got haste, coercer got dps increase.</p><p>swash got haste, brigand got dps increase.</p><p>troub got haste, dirge got dps increase (or the other way round, i forgot )</p><p>monk got haste, bruiser got dps increase.</p><p>etc.</p><p>i dont know all other classes just  inquisitor also buffs dps increase, , assasin got dps increase....</p><p>berserker got both, guardian got... dps decrease debuff :smileytongue: (dunno if they get buff also)</p><p> </p><p>while rogue, predator and bruiser have self only, other classes can also buff groupmembers.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by zitha on <span class="date_text">01-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:16 AM</span></p>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<div></div><p>I have a baby zerker and while I would never turn down haste with him I would prefer to have the dps buff if I had a choise.    Beggers cannot be choisers so I take what buffs my group can provide me and go to town :smileytongue:  The difference between haste and dps buff isnt so much as that I favor having one type class over another in a group ... raiding it might be differnt though.</p><p> </p><p>If I remember correctly the forumal for proc rates is something like:  (weap delay / 3) x proc % listed    which would explain why long delay weapons (like bows) seem to proc nearly every other shot while dual weild weapons proc like once every 20 swings.   Haste speeds up the rate at which you attack but doesnt factor into the proc rate so being hasted really makes it seem like your proc'ing less (although over time you should be proc'ing the exact same amount ... your just getting more swings inbetween each proc)</p>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Azamien-Dermorate wrote:<div></div><p>I have a baby zerker and while I would never turn down haste with him I would prefer to have the dps buff if I had a choise.    Beggers cannot be choisers so I take what buffs my group can provide me and go to town :smileytongue:  The difference between haste and dps buff isnt so much as that I favor having one type class over another in a group ... raiding it might be differnt though.</p><p> </p><p>If I remember correctly the forumal for proc rates is something like:  (weap delay / 3) x proc % listed    which would explain why long delay weapons (like bows) seem to proc nearly every other shot while dual weild weapons proc like once every 20 swings.   Haste speeds up the rate at which you attack but doesnt factor into the proc rate so being hasted really makes it seem like your proc'ing less (although over time you should be proc'ing the exact same amount ... your just getting more swings inbetween each proc)</p><hr></blockquote>Incorrect. Attack Speed buffs(Haste) do not affect proc rates. If you swing more, you will proc more, if you're comparing the same weapon. If you have a 3.0 delay weapon with a 12% chance to proc, without haste you'll proc 12 times out of 100 swings which will take 5 minutes. If you get 100% Attack Speed(the cap), you will swing every 1.5s, and in that same 5 minutes, you will swing 200 times, and proc 24 times.

[Zebsen]

<div></div><p>A very interesting discussion.  To be honest though, I very rarely ever use my haste spell as it takes concentration and that concentration is better spent in 99% of most situations on dynamism.  Some confusion could be due to this fact, as very few illusionists that I know of use haste enough to notice a difference.</p><p>I never actually parsed the proc, but months ago when I did try it a few times, my guardian did not believe the proc rate of his sword was improved at all.  I have no hard data to support this, just feelings from our tank.</p><p>Zebsen</p><p>Level 56 illusionist</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[trenor]

<div></div><p>Far as raiding is concerned if your concentration is used for hate cancel it immediately and repace it with dynamism on a caster,</p><p>Fiz</p>

[zit]

<div></div><p>haste isnt that bad as you make it out to be.</p><p>and dynamism isnt the be-all and end-all.</p><p> </p><p>it depends on what class you got in your raid group and what encounter you are fighting. if we really want to optimize our buffs we often would have to switch between haste and dynamism during a raid, sometimes even during a fight.</p><p>most benefit has dynamism on AE casters while actually fighting group encounter. in this situation its really great.</p><p>on single target fights, which pretty much every epic boss is in the end, dynamism is not very overwhelming. it will add about 20 dps in average per con slot if we are lucky.</p><p>some melee classes do 200+ dps with autoattack alone. i am more than willing to spend a con slot on a haste for them if we happen to be in same group (and they are not close to cap already).</p>