Illusory Allies

[trenor]

<DIV>Despite having spoken th the raid leader about this spell numerous times they refuse to use it until after the mt dies.  I mstly just cast it at the ens to seee how long it will last and every time almost for the full duration on t6 mobs.  They just dont like the agro wipe issue.  My theory is as soon as the main tank dies there is a mob running around lose until a tank can gain agro.  Same thing and at that time would it not be better to know when agro is reset than to have it running around after the mt is dead like a kid in a candy store whoopin everyones [Removed for Content].  Apparently, I am the only one who thinks this way as me and the other illusionist send each other tells about how frustrating it is that we can't use this spell to prevent the main tank death but rather wait until he dies and then throw it at the mob. Looking for some other viewpoints to see if it's just me being insane.</DIV> <DIV>Also, has anyone else noticed that spell shield works on pretty much no raid mobs spells at all?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One </DIV>

[Dalden]

I havn't yet found a good use for it on raids either - it is very situational.In our raids, we usually have a designated back-up tank, someone who is high on the aggro list (like a berserker). That way when the main tank dies, its easy for him to get aggro. Using Illusory Allies when the MT dies would also destroy the hate the backup tank has built up during the fight.For Illusary Allies to work in a raid everyone has to know how it works to avoid getting killed after the memory wipe.In groups on non-epic mobs I use this spell all the time - I just hit the mob with Drain Will (10 second stun) before it wears off, and that gives the tank more than enough time to build aggro again.<div></div>

[Tuleri]

<DIV>I have used IA several times on epic mobs.  It does give the raid a few seconds to reorganize if a tank dies.  The other option is having the epic run around hacking at raid...so granting the tanks a few seconds to gather themselves is helpful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just be certain that mob is tearing through the raid out of control</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Oh yes, and SPellshield is now officially the most useless POS spell in the game.  Well that and powerdrain....</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Tulerine on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[trenor]

<P>[Removed for Content] tul the other day the master power drain dropped for me at a raid and everyone is like grats fiz.  I was thankful for the spell.  Hwever, I was chuckling to myself it's not on my hotbar.  Dis a test on drainind a 49 triple up heroic tok me 36 minutes with all master drain spells.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fiz</P> <P> </P> <P>P.s wonder how good they would be on epics.</P> <P>Oh i put spell shield on myself now just for the snazzy swirly effect i consider it the funspell they never gave illusionists.</P>

[jun]

<DIV>I seem to remember posting something on another thread with regards to changes I would like to see on this spell.  I would love to see this spell get a revamp on its control features.  I do agree that raids tend to be extremely one dimensional with DPS/Healers as the primary keys to success.  And... if we are to become more beneficial to that rediculously simple stratagem, our IA's need to be adjusted to suite a more defined purpose in that scheme.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For instance, in their present condition, the IA's spawn close to and infront of the casting Illusionist.  They immediately seek out the target you have and assume agro.  This creates moments of havoc because the mob has a tendancy to move away from the spot the raid has positioned him.  This is a very well established method because it allows the tanks to position near a wall to offset knockbacks, and presents a good idea for max casting range for the rest of the raid.  In addition, you can have some marker folks establish a 'safety perimeter' to indicate how far you need to run away from the mob's position to avoid AE's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Needless to say, once the IA's are summoned, everything is up in the air.  The mob will move, turn and everything else that was established based on its position is gone.  What I am about to suggest is NOT overpowering.  Nor is it asking for more HP or DPS for the IA's.  Simply some control to how they are used to provide a 'useful' tool during a raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, make the spell raid/group friendly.  Why?  Because until changes to our class make us more Main Tank group necessary, we will not be in the group where this spell would perform is maximum benefit.  So, adjust the spell to be more flexible with that in mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, change it so that you can target <a raid/group member> as the recipient of the service.  It shouldn't be forced on us to have the raid mob targeted in order to cast the spell to aid.  Raid leaders don't normally sanction the use of a spell that undermines the objectives of the raid.  That explains why most of us are asked NOT to cast this during a raid until the point where it is either too late, or utterly pointless to do so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, recalibrate the IA's to where they will move to the targeted raid/group member BEFORE they remove all agro from the Main Tank.  This will allow a raid to maintain its positional control of the mob and effectively remove the Main Tank as the number 1 person on the agro list for the existing period of time the spell has defined.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having an adjustment like this made to the spell would not overpower it, nor would it continue to undermine the raid goals.  It would simply become a useful tool a raid leader could use as an 'emergency relief' mechanism to regain control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any thoughts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>VR,</DIV> <DIV>Kailen - 60 Illusionist Faydark</DIV><p>Message Edited by junzu on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 AM</span>

[SunT]

<P>I dont have an issue with the mob moving much die to my casting.  I usually cast in Oh SH.it Moments so the mob is moving already.  Nominal change and I will never notice the effect.</P> <P>I dont have an Issue with targetting of it.  First it takes the works with it, so doesn't matter what mob you hit.  Second, I use an in group catalyst for damage so I almost always have a viable target even if not in MT group.  Third, if I am not on a target that i can cast thru, I am on the mob watching aggro.  Fourth, I thought you could cast this spell thru another group...but as I said above I rarely if ever would need to.</P> <P>I have no issue using this spell exactly like it is.  I don't think anything needs changed at all.</P> <P>You just have to be wary of where and how you use it.  It is an Epic stun/mez so to speak.  If you get a second Epic that is about to engage, buy 15 seconds, more if there is a second Illusionist.  If the MT goes down and the mob begins to Pong, stop the damage for 15 seconds so the second tank can get a grip.  If you are wiping buy 15 seconds so someone can FD or wall themselves.</P> <P>We have many broken spells, i really don't want this one nerfed too.  If the Dev work on it don't expect it to be viable at all anymore.</P> <P> </P>

[jun]

<P>" I usually cast in Oh SH.it Moments so the mob is moving already"</P> <P> </P> <P>That is the main thing I would like to have changed though.  Yeah, the spell has its uses at the time things go haywire, or even after it (depending on whether or not your raid leader/ raid members know how to react to its effect).  But I would rather have the spell act as a tool to use prior to this.  Something a bit more stable where it can become part of the strategy for winning.</P> <P>You have valid points because that IS how the spell currently works.  Most of what you are saying makes sense because we use the spell to attempt to regain control AFTER is has been lost.</P> <P>What I was suggesting was altering it so that we can be a useful agent in the struggle to 'maintain' the control we have already established.  Nothing more... or less.  Leaving the spell as is will effect nothing really.  It will continue to be a last ditch effort that very few raid leaders will find as a viable solution to a recovery effort.  If however, the 'idea' I had is played with and possibly implemented, then we (as Illusionists) have gained another useful purpose in the raid environment and at very little cost.</P> <P>At this point, I will take just about any fix/revamp that will provide a usefulness to my character in a raid.  Yes, I agree that we have other spells that need to be fixed and/or looked at.  I just didn't want this thread turning into another regurgitated session of the same thing.  We began this thread discussing a single spell and its uses, I was only attempting to follow through with it... not jack the thread.</P> <P> </P> <P>VR,</P> <P>Kailen - 60 Illusionist Faydark</P>

[SunT]

<P>The history of 'Fixes' to combat art does not give me alot of confidence that the 'Fix" will actually be batter than the current form.</P> <P>I can live with the current form.</P> <P>SOE has a reliable reputation to take what one or two people say and make adjustments based on it.  Whether they make sense or not.  Saying we want a change to this spell is asking for it to be nerfed IMO.  </P> <P>I think the spell works very well in a very situational way.  I am fine with that, since that situation is not too rare as we push deeper into new content.  </P>

[jun]

<P>Now this is becoming a very sad commentary in our own forums where players are afraid to discuss possible changes/ fixes to spell lines for fear of a nerf.  I think that is actually worse than never having any feedback from the game designers or whomever SOE puts forward as a conduit for creative communication between the players and game designers.</P> <P>Yeah, you are willing to 'live with it' because you use the spell more as a punchline or cheap theatrical joke than a real tool.  Why?  I think its because of the 'nature' of its current form that allows you to dismiss its potential.  Another factor is that you basically don't play your Illusionist any longer so changes are a secondary impact to you because you actively play a different main now.</P> <P>I'm not saying this to make you angry, just trying to rationalize why you wouldn't want to see ANY improvement to our spells where it could be done.  Whether it was IA or something else.</P> <P>VR,</P> <P>Kailen - 60 Illusionist Faydark</P>

[SunT]

<P>I play my Illusionist as my Main every night.  I raid everyday almost without exception.</P> <P>I level my pally at lunch and when I am not raiding or doing instance with my Illusionist.  I never solo or camp named with my Illusionist anymore but that is it.</P> <P>The reason My Pally is leveling quickly is I don't watch TV and rarely sleep more than four hours, meanwhile my family sleeps 8-10 hours per night.  Lots of late night free time make 2 high end toons possible.</P> <P>As for IA, I actually LIKE it as it is.  I don't want the Dev to 'Fix' it because it may not be as effective anymore.  I don't 'Dismiss its potential', lol I use it to its fullest when it is apropriate.</P> <P>It is an excellent Oh SH.IT spell.  It is a great, albeit difficult to use, Epic stun.  I don't want any changes.  My opposition to your ideas has nothing to do with my Pally.  I don't think this spell needs any work at all.</P> <P>Their are three entire lines of spells for power drain that are USELESS.  I want those fixed.  But I dont care about IA, in fact I don't want anything at all done to it.  </P> <P>I LIKE IT.  That is why I don't agree.</P> <DIV>If you want to know why I think the way I do, just read what I am writing.  No hidden agenda, just the facts as I see them.</DIV>

[trenor]

<P>Well this thread seemed to get derailed like a runaway train.  If you read the post it states clearly.  That I am trying to get the raid leader to use it before the main tank goes down not after he dies.  Not calling for nerfs yadyada.  Please stick to the subject and gove me your opinion on this.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fiz</P>

[Tuleri]

<DIV>I like IA as it is.  It is a nice tool that is our only epic control type spell.  I am hoping they fix our stifle, power drain and mezz spells first</DIV>

[zit]

<BLOCKQUOTE><A target=_blank></A></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i do not really like the suggested changes and find them uneccessary.</P> <P>i dont have much problem to target the raid mob. if any spell then its prismatic havoc that needs change to be castable raid wide. this really would be great help. for IA i never felt the need for it.</P> <P>i prefer IA to get agro instantly. if the tank is really low health or died already and the mob beating on the healer i rather have it turn around instantly and not waiting till IA has moved up to it.</P> <P>dont know what you mean with "make the spell raid/group friendly" in connection with maximum benefit only in MT group. i havent noticed any difference in IA performance weather i was in MT group or not.</P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>As both an Illusionist and a raid leader, this is how i like to have IA used in raids - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If some1 happens to steal aggro off the tank while his rescue is down. This really isnt very often at all, but its still an option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If the tank dies but the mob has less than 10%hp left. If the mob has any more than 10% hp, the tank wont be able to get back up, buff up, and tank again in 15 seconds. At less than 10% hp theres a chance that the raid can go all out on dps and kill the mob before the entire raid wipes (even though a few still might die).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If its a tough mob and we dont have a monk that day to tsunami pull, i would run right up to the mob and use it, giving the raid some time to debuff the mob before it beats on the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case, I always make sure that i (or whichever illu) am fairly close to the mob when casting it to prevent it from chasing after the illusions, this way it retains its positioning as much as possible.</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>

[jun]

<P>Sorry Trenor and SunTsu.</P> <P>As far as me using this spell on a raid... nope, not allowed at all really.  From the raidleader's stand point, it is too disruptive.  Lol... hard to believe it is any more disruptive than an Epic x 4 running through the raid wiping people up, but its their call not mine.</P> <P>Honestly though, I can somewhat understand their point of view in a very 'cut and dry' evaluation.  With death penalties being what they are (.5  - .7), they would rather wipe the raid in one go, allow the Epic to reset, rebuff, and prepare to run the same boring tactic against it until it works.  From their viewpoint, introducing this specific spell as a possible opportunity to recover 'during' a wipe doesn't provide any dependable factor to 'save' the raid.</P> <P>In fact, they even say that holding the mob for a mere 15 seconds and wiping the established hate list seems more detrimental that just wiping.  They seem to believe trying to 'train' the raid to react to this type of recovery isn't worth the time/effort and additional confusion.</P> <P> </P> <P>VR,</P> <P>Kailen - 60 Illusionist Faydark</P>

[trenor]

<DIV>Which leads me to believe that niether the raid leader or the other players in the raid have any clue how this spell works.  Every silgle raid mob same thing.  Monk pulls with tsunami, mt hits rescue, sk and pally intercept, healers spam yad yada, mt goes down half the raid is dead ok hit illusory allies now its ok.  Lmfal</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fiz</DIV>

[Pins]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>As both an Illusionist and a raid leader, this is how i like to have IA used in raids - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If some1 happens to steal aggro off the tank while his rescue is down. This really isnt very often at all, but its still an option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If the tank dies but the mob has less than 10%hp left. If the mob has any more than 10% hp, the tank wont be able to get back up, buff up, and tank again in 15 seconds. At less than 10% hp theres a chance that the raid can go all out on dps and kill the mob before the entire raid wipes (even though a few still might die).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If its a tough mob and we dont have a monk that day to tsunami pull, i would run right up to the mob and use it, giving the raid some time to debuff the mob before it beats on the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case, I always make sure that i (or whichever illu) am fairly close to the mob when casting it to prevent it from chasing after the illusions, this way it retains its positioning as much as possible.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DaMutation on <SPAN class=date_text>12-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:46 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Wow, that's a great idea!, the 3rd one, never thought of that.<BR></DIV>

[trenor]

<DIV>15 seconds is plenty of time to get a main tank rezzed and full health.  Back into the fray. Then one big heal.  Took out spiregaze with 6 people the other day. Only Possible cause of illusory allies.  Now I organize pick ups just to test the usage of it.  Always try to bring a guildie along in them.  I call it my enlightening phaze.  You really know most people out there have absolutley no clue what exactly enchanters do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fiz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's our job to enlighten them and a painful process it is</DIV>

[trenor]

<P>Oh and thank you people who relied to what i posted.  Not too whoever posted all the bs about changing the spell which wasn't anywhere whatsoever in the original post.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fiz</P>

[Tuleri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>As both an Illusionist and a raid leader, this is how i like to have IA used in raids - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If some1 happens to steal aggro off the tank while his rescue is down. This really isnt very often at all, but its still an option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If the tank dies but the mob has less than 10%hp left. If the mob has any more than 10% hp, the tank wont be able to get back up, buff up, and tank again in 15 seconds. At less than 10% hp theres a chance that the raid can go all out on dps and kill the mob before the entire raid wipes (even though a few still might die).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If its a tough mob and we dont have a monk that day to tsunami pull, i would run right up to the mob and use it, giving the raid some time to debuff the mob before it beats on the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case, I always make sure that i <STRONG>(or whichever illu)</STRONG> am fairly close to the mob when casting it to prevent it from chasing after the illusions, this way it retains its positioning as much as possible.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DaMutation on <SPAN class=date_text>12-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:46 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Wow, that's a great idea!, the 3rd one, never thought of that.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What I REALLY find amazing is that he was able to find another illusionist to raid with!!  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Actually that does sound like an interesting idea.  Thanks for tip</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>LOL ya there are a couple of illus on Faydark....we have 2 in the guild, and then the other big raiding guld on the server has 4 (they stole one of ours :/). And then there are another 4 (at least that i know of) that arent raiders. Plus, ive seen several illus in their 40s right now so the number is increasing.....strange isnt it?</DIV>

[Manyak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> trenor wrote:<BR> <DIV>15 seconds is plenty of time to get a main tank rezzed and full health.  Back into the fray. Then one big heal.  Took out spiregaze with 6 people the other day. Only Possible cause of illusory allies.  Now I organize pick ups just to test the usage of it.  Always try to bring a guildie along in them.  I call it my enlightening phaze.  You really know most people out there have absolutley no clue what exactly enchanters do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fiz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's our job to enlighten them and a painful process it is</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually, its 100% impossible for the tank (at least if its a guardian) to be fully buffed up in 15 seconds. Guard buffs are all on a 1 minute timer, which starts from the moment of death. So anything less than around 70 seconds (1 min for timers + about 10 sec for casting) means that the tank isnt fully buffed. Plus not to mention, the other people in the group need to cast their buffs on him as well, and all of them got reuse and casting timers to take into consideration. Sure the tank can be rezzed and healed, but against most raid mobs hes not gonna last long without those buffs.</DIV>

[SunT]

True.  But it is enough time for the offtank to get him under control.  He only need stand for about 30-45 more seconds and the MT should be near ready again.

[Manyak]

<DIV>That is also true.....i dunno though, when we raid we rarely have an off-tank (unless the raid actually calls for one) cuz the other 3 groups are all DPS/heal oriented. So that idea just never came to mind.</DIV>

[trenor]

<P>Fully buffed wasn't the issue and if you ever had your mt go down (your raid one even a little underbuffed if he's your lead raid mt) then its worth it to have ahim pop a mit potion, taunt  away and drop a porcupine on him.  He will have most of his buff backe besides the one minute whatever you are talking about.  Rez and back into the fray.  Most of tanks mit is from grp memebers buffs not his personal id assume.  I am not a tank ,m however, sop i could be wrong but iots just flat out wrong to say he can't be rezzed and rdy to fight in 15 seconds i have seen it dozens of times.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fiz</P> <P> </P>

[Mihos]

<DIV>Its not worth risking the whole raid because you have a spell you are desperate to try and show off to everyone else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mihos</DIV>

[trenor]

<P>Evberyone knows what the spell is if you had any clue what it is and how it works you would see its a tool.  Yesterday i saved the raid with it on vision of vox.  In fact a rescue and the mt had agro back and yes was alive.  Learn how the spell works and then come and talk your oiece.  Cause obviously you have no idea when to use it or how it works at all.  My raid force is coming around nicely now that they have seen it save the raid in no less than 4 times.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fiz</P> <P> </P> <P>May I add this is the only spell anywhere that any class has that can save the raid in that effect</P>

[jun]

<P>As far as Fiz just using the spell to show off... I don't believe that was his intentions at all.  The spell CAN make a difference.  It all depends on whether or not the raiders have trained/planned how to use it in the event of an emergency recovery.  Its not just the 'education' of the raid as to what the spell does, but more about 'how' it can be used and how they should react.  The difficult part is trying to break their 'die in place' mentality when the MT goes down.</P> <P>It just doesn't sound right hearing that a raid doesn't have an SA around during raids.  What is the raid mentality for that?  We have 1 MT, if he dies, we wipe and go again?  Not very prudent planning if there are no backups or alternatives.  Maybe I am just old school or something, but we typically planned everything from assembly areas, distribution of reagents, heal crew rotations, buff crew rotations, rez responsibilities, raid path/movement, the fight strategies, in-raid loot distributions, and definately wipe recoveries.  After a period of time, some of those aspects became second nature to the raid force and happened without any directives from the raid officers.</P> <P>We used just about every tool we had on hand during raids... bar none.  To exclude IA from a raid 'plan' is just not very smart.  I'm not saying it is a MUST in every event... but when your raid is faced with a wipe scenario, and IA could potentially tip the scales in your favor by simply buying you the additional 15 or so seconds... it is worth it.  Most good raid fights are basically a battle of time management/resources.  Do we have the spells/power/dps to last longer than the raid mob(s).  If so, and planned correctly, you generally win.</P> <P>I think in order to properly use IA during a wipe, there are a few considerations you should examine.  Do we have enough healers up and aware they need to heal the SA now?  Is the SA pre-buffed and ready to step in?  Does the raid know to hold their ground, switch assist to the new Tank, and stop nuking/attacking the raid mob?  Does the SA know to hold the taunt until the last moments of IA then throw a rescue at the Illusionist if taunts fail to get the agro?</P> <P>Basically, if the raid knows how to react, 15 seconds is a decent amount of time in an epic fight.  Lots can happen.  Worse case scenario, you wipe and you are right back where you would have been if there had been no IA in the first place.  Best case, just like Fiz said, he saved the raid from a complete wipe.</P> <P>Just my thoughts...</P> <P> </P> <P>VR,</P> <P>Kailen - 60 Illusionist Faydark</P><p>Message Edited by junzu on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:26 AM</span>

[zit]

<DIV>even if not preventing a wipe IA can still be useful.</DIV> <DIV>i had it happen that, although we werent able to recover fast enough, the mem wipe effect took place and the mob reset without killing everyone. this can be helpful when learning new instances as the most limiting factor there can be broken armor.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Ive found one more use for it. Actually to be honest, I thought of this completely by accident. Another illusionist in the raid (a noob raider) casted IA on Lockjaw as soon as it left our tank, which gave me the idea for this strategy.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See, certain raid mobs, such as Lockjaw, memwipe themselves. On those mobs this is a very good spell to cast just as the mob starts to run away from the tank. Rescue alone usually doesnt work in these cases, so this helps the tank get aggro back without having the mob bouncing around. With enough illus in the raid, IA will come up enough times between the illus that you will be able to prevent the mob bouncing completely. Even if you dont have enough illus, just being able to prevent it 2 or 3 times is enough of a help to the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course there are other strategies, but I like this one.......worked like a charm for us =)</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:53 PM</span>

[Aram]

This spell would be amazing if it was a group/raid friend spell that instead of mem whipe, it added a bunch of hate to the raid/group target.  Could be used when main tank losses aggro or just for dps.  <div></div>