The Only place chanters are broken is raiding!!

[trenor]

<DIV>I need to say this.  If you can not solo a white or yellow con mob your level as an enchanter with or without your pet then you must change your tactics.  These are easily beatable.</DIV> <DIV>In grps we are butter!!!!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only area that sony has to worry about with us is raiding and man did they royally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up there!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fiz</DIV>

[Etillchou]

grin name it illusionist.. a coercer can easy solo yellow heroic ^^^ with taking a orange ^^^ heroic pet <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />but true its possible but harder and takes more time then most other classes (aka 90% of the other classes)

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> trenor wrote:<BR> <DIV>I need to say this.  If you can not solo a white or yellow con mob your level as an enchanter with or without your pet then you must change your tactics.  These are easily beatable.</DIV> <DIV>In grps we are butter!!!!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only area that sony has to worry about with us is raiding and man did they royally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up there!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fiz</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN>A class being able to kill stuff doesn’t equal in that class being good at soloing.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Pre CU13 illusionist have been one of those rare classes that were able to kill the Pit Champion without much trouble, while many others did struggle. Did this mean we were good soloers? For sure not.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I have not heard an illusionist complain recently that he weren’t able to kill a solo mob at all. I havn’t heard a Templar complain about not being able to kill solo mobs either. They obviously both get the mob dead. Must that mean that both are good classes at soloing? For sure not. They still can have valid issues that needs to be addressed.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>There has to be a balance between multiple factors, some of them being time it takes to kill the mob vs. downtime between kills vs. risk etc. now just for example if a class kills at same speed as a different one but has longer downtimes and higher risk, would this be considered balanced?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Its up to everyone to close their eyes and say they don’t care about other classes, about downtime or risk or other factors, as long as they can kill stuff they are fine. That’s ok and those ppl have usually an easier time enjoying their class. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>But they please should also try to understand that if others complain that they feel their class not being good in soloing, this often has nothing to do with being able to get a mob dead and may have a valid reason based on some other imbalance. Cause if something is good or bad can only be judged in comparison to others. If every class needs 1 min to kill a mob and mine can do it in 15 sec with no other disadvantage in return, what class will be considered better? If every class can kill a mob in 15 sec and mine needs 1 min what class will be considered worse? That all classes can kill it doesn’t tell us anything.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Now I don’t want to say that illusionist are the worst soloing class out there. But we are closer to the bottom than we are to the top. We are not broken for soloing, but there are some serious issues that draw us down more than what is justified for balancing reasons.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>So please stop that "if-you-cannot-solo-you-do-not-know-how-to-play-your-class" attitude. Its just as stupid as the "if-you-are-not-happy-with-being-a-mana-bot-on-raids-you-should-have-rolled-a-diferent-class". There are issues with both areas. Both have the right to get voiced.</SPAN></P></DIV>

[Ruvi]

<P>Honestly, lots of what u noted down is nice, but nothing else but a very personal opionion from a somewhat above point of view.</P> <P>Illus are Enchanters. Mindcontrolling, shapeshifting and indirect-damage causing characters based on a magic. Right now we are far away fromt that. The main ability to controll minds is an Illusion with that spells we have now. Encounter Mez series is worth nothing at all but a small stun - no difference at all between Ap1 and Ad3. It will not help u control a horde of mobs rushing the group. When mobs are linked but not grouped THEN the enchanter should be the thin u need. Try the Gamblers in MD solo. U will die in seconds. Try to mezz more than 4 mobs with it like in Sinking sands close to eye of anuk - u will die in seconds. Try it in the encounters like on rahotep - u will die in seconsd. Why? because its balanced like crap.</P> <P>Shapeshifting. Great. I like to look different. It makes an awesome short time when casting illusions on yourself and your pet - i am sure the fun lasts for days, doesnt it? BUT where the hell is the benefit of it? It would make sense to bring some effects on it - like when changing to barbarian less INT but more STR. Or when changing to a Half Elf more AGI but less STR. And of course some of this effects in Group Illusions too. And not to think about Illusory Allies - which is the same as Ap1 and Ad3. No idea what this spell brings except making the tank confused, the healer frustrated and Illu dead. Its an emergency spell to get agro from tank just before he dies and die instead of him, not much of a brilliant idea. And it truely makes sense, that u dont need the spells at all, because of the collection quests it is not very impressing too, since everybody can do shapeshifting. So its kinda waste of space in spellbook.</P> <P>Further the Power Regen. Instead of RASING the amount it would help - especially when downgrading Illus to Buffmules with about no damage and no use in raids else - to give us RAIDBUFFS, not only that crappy Dynamism which doesnt work as intended btw. Give us RAID REGEN. Give us illusory Allies for RAID. That would be somewhat usefull.</P> <P>Pets. Nice. Our Pet cant tank - solution? Constructs. Constructs last for some seconds, cant be buffed (great idea) and the vanishing or slay efefct (stiffle) doesnt work. Charm? Capped in level 24 - Waste of space in spellbook. Compared to Necro? Tank or rogue Pet PLUS Hounds PLUS Ghastly Corpse PLUS Emergency Pet PLUS undead Charmed Pet at once by having higher nukes (Live drain) and awesome higher DoTs while he can Heal and convert life to power in ONE SITUATION!!!!!!! So wheres the point?</P> <P>Nukes .. Ilusionist 500 dmg in level 60 adept3 .. compare to a level 50 Wizard 4000+ dmg. Means 1 nuke - 1 mob.</P> <P>Haste .. as longs as group and 1 conc slot capped not really of use.</P> <P>Buffs like INT/WIS .. level 50 Wizards overwrite our buff with their INT buff.</P> <P>Spellshield .. as long as capped one 1 target only .. not really of use.</P> <P>Really usefull is Sap Will and he area manadrain. But rest of spells is not raising our soloing capacity in any way but would be great for getting along in raids.</P> <P>Prismatic Havoc is usefull too.</P> <P>And with today update thanks again, lowered our Buff INT/WIS again. Now a level 42 Wiz has an higher Intbuff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Dunno what SoE expects but this just another nerf. even lower chances for Illusionists and dozens of upgrades for all others. And still we are MUCH TOO STRONG - nerf us again pls.</P> <P>Cant wait for vanguard</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Barobra]

<span><blockquote><hr>  And not to think about Illusory Allies - which is the same as Ap1 and Ad3. No idea what this spell brings except making the tank confused, the healer frustrated and Illu dead. Its an emergency spell to get agro from tank just before he dies and die instead of him, not much of a brilliant idea.<hr></blockquote>I agree, not so sure on what different adept1-master makes but I would hope that each illusion has more hp maybe? No way to test though. As far as how useful it is I disagree. I rarely die when I cast this spell. If you do, then you dont really understand it. Try this, right before it falls cast your ae stun, then sap will. Stuns end and tank takes over FTW. This has saved healers/dps/tanks countless times. This is one of our most useful spells in a heroic situation. Use it wisely.</span><div></div>

[Ruvi]

<P>Hmm - i see u think i dont use it right? Ok, let me see. I cast Illusory allies, what happens from my point of view:</P> <P>1.) 6 pets (nonbuffable targets for 16 seconds) rush the mob and start to taunt it off until it looks at the one who did the taunt. This taunt is now overruled by the taunt of the other pet which makes the first pet taunt again and so on. The damage of the pets is around 35 points oper hit (1handed weapons) they dont cast or anything, just hit very weakly and taunt like nuts.</P> <P>Seen from healers point fo view who in common in hilevel raid guilds has the Mob in his target and heals whom ever is hit, which is normally the maintank of group/raid and sometimes somebody else who gains too much hate of mob. He now hast tons of messages like " The target doesnt belong to a group". While that the maintank notices he has lost agro and sees the mob bash on someone he knows so he uses everything he has to gain hate and make the mob look at him. at least he gets some hits but losses agro immediatly at the crazy pets of the illu. Heals? not really because the mob changes the target in every scond. So the healer has to select its target by clicking on it - nearly impossible when u fight in epic encounters - or via function keys (if the maintank is his group) or via selecting it from raid window. The healers looses time, concentration and fun when that happens with maybe 2 or 3 Illusionists.</P> <P>Seen from tanks point fo view who in common will not see much more than the mobs and notice of he is hit. SInce he has EVERYTHING to do anyways to remain the target there isnt much he can add if he looses the agro. Confusion since the mob is turning around madly bashing on someone else. While he tries everything to make the mob look at him the area effects of the Epic mob hit everyone in the raid group which is in common on the opposite side of the tank, because of evading the area effects. He tries to get agro but gan he just gets it for a short period of time. Lots of casualties now amongst the healers and casters and DDs...</P> <P>The enchanter, who casted the allies and in common has a HUUUUUUUUUGGGEEEEEEEE agro bonus anyways, now casts stun - which even a level 60 Illu has big big provblems to make it stick on a maximum debuffed epic mob, resist (2 seks left until allies will wear of) .. recast time 2 secs .. cast 2 seks (the allies are gone 2 secs ago, the mob now looking for the agressor of soooo many taunts) .mob turns to Illu .. casting gone .. and now please close your eyes, fold your hands and pray ...if the stun sticks, you have TEN more seconds until you are dead. Time enough for a lil prayer.</P> <P>So you really explain to me the spell makes sense? Stunning and stiffling at the vanishing point of the spell? An epic level 55 mob has about 50.000 and more mana. You now drain 879 power .. recast time 30 seks .. The chance to make stun stick at the first time of the spell "Sap Will" is lower than 15% .. if it works you get MUCH MORE AGRO than before and will live 10 seks longer, if you dont get it to stick you are gone anyways.</P> <P>My way? Dont use the crappy spell in raids. use it only at the end of fights in groups. It has no need to be casted in solo mode. In raid i prefer to hit the mob with my damage spells to do at least SOMETHING usefull besides the relatively low manaregen of 27 points in adept III for the group. Becasue 16 seconds long the pets u use to confuse the target bring 6 (pets) x 8 hits (every 2 second 1 hit) of around 30 to 35 dmg (IF every hit is a hit and not a miss, which i doubt will ever occure) and 2 dead healers, lots of powereating heals to DDs and casters which have been hit by AE while the mob turned around like nuts because of the pet taunts.</P> <P>I hope that explains how it works</P> <P> </P>

[SunT]

<P>In SC where there are many roamer Epics it is a lifesaver.  Like a 15 sec mez or stun for Epics.</P> <P>When the MT goes down you can get yell off and hit the wall.</P> <P>When the MT is almost down you give him a quick break so the healers can catch up and hope he gets aggro back, but the alternative was a wipe.</P> <P>Not the best spell but I use it a couple times a night when raiding.  </P>

[tawek]

<DIV>Illusory Allies is a situational spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you use it with a panicky group who have no idea what it is, it may cause more problems than it's worth.  But used in the right situation, it's a life saver.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lately, I've been in groups where we've been fighting groups, and I've been grabbing agro a lot with my dps (those who think our dps is utterly useless, please note).  I've checked with the group, and they've said they don't mind, and told me to keep blasting away.  Usually, if I grab agro, the mob is dead before it really hurt me.  If not, I use our short duration stun, and if necessary our long duration stun.  Occasionally, it's been a really tough mob, and I'm out of stuns ... then Illusory Allies has saved my life.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's main drawbacks are: it's really confusing for a group the first time you use it.  And when it wipes most of the agro from the mob, if the tank is out of power he may be unable to grab agro back, and that could cause a wipe.  For those reasons, some just use it as an emercency pseudo-stun with memory wipe.  But I'm not so sure, it's recast timer isn't that long, so I'm going to experiment and see if it makes sense to cast it more regularly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For me, this is exactly the sort of spell I like.  I have to think before I cast.  If I use the right spells at the right time, I can excell as an illusionist.  But when I don't think, I'm not effective at all.  I enjoy that, but it's not for everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to learn when to use the right spell ... well in part I have folk in this forum to thank, especially MillsFairChild.  (You still around Mills?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Elleii, 58 Illusionist, Antonia Bayle</DIV>

[Tuleri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> trenor wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only area that sony has to worry about with us is raiding and man did they royally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up there!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fiz</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well considering I raid almost every day, that is a big [Removed for Content] problem to myself and many others!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, other then to chain pull, I can probably count on 1 hand where Mezz really was necessary after level 55....That means 3 spells are pretty much useless.  That is also a problem...</DIV>

[Barobra]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ruvily wrote:<p>Hmm - i see u think i dont use it right? Ok, let me see. I cast Illusory allies, what happens from my point of view:</p> <p>1.) 6 pets (nonbuffable targets for 16 seconds) rush the mob and start to taunt it off until it looks at the one who did the taunt. This taunt is now overruled by the taunt of the other pet which makes the first pet taunt again and so on. The damage of the pets is around 35 points oper hit (1handed weapons) they dont cast or anything, just hit very weakly and taunt like nuts.</p> <p>Seen from healers point fo view who in common in hilevel raid guilds has the Mob in his target and heals whom ever is hit, which is normally the maintank of group/raid and sometimes somebody else who gains too much hate of mob. He now hast tons of messages like " The target doesnt belong to a group". While that the maintank notices he has lost agro and sees the mob bash on someone he knows so he uses everything he has to gain hate and make the mob look at him. at least he gets some hits but losses agro immediatly at the crazy pets of the illu. Heals? not really because the mob changes the target in every scond. So the healer has to select its target by clicking on it - nearly impossible when u fight in epic encounters - or via function keys (if the maintank is his group) or via selecting it from raid window. The healers looses time, concentration and fun when that happens with maybe 2 or 3 Illusionists.</p> <p>Seen from tanks point fo view who in common will not see much more than the mobs and notice of he is hit. SInce he has EVERYTHING to do anyways to remain the target there isnt much he can add if he looses the agro. Confusion since the mob is turning around madly bashing on someone else. While he tries everything to make the mob look at him the area effects of the Epic mob hit everyone in the raid group which is in common on the opposite side of the tank, because of evading the area effects. He tries to get agro but gan he just gets it for a short period of time. Lots of casualties now amongst the healers and casters and DDs...</p> <p>The enchanter, who casted the allies and in common has a HUUUUUUUUUGGGEEEEEEEE agro bonus anyways, now casts stun - which even a level 60 Illu has big big provblems to make it stick on a maximum debuffed epic mob, resist (2 seks left until allies will wear of) .. recast time 2 secs .. cast 2 seks (the allies are gone 2 secs ago, the mob now looking for the agressor of soooo many taunts) .mob turns to Illu .. casting gone .. and now please close your eyes, fold your hands and pray ...if the stun sticks, you have TEN more seconds until you are dead. Time enough for a lil prayer.</p> <p>So you really explain to me the spell makes sense? Stunning and stiffling at the vanishing point of the spell? An epic level 55 mob has about 50.000 and more mana. You now drain 879 power .. recast time 30 seks .. The chance to make stun stick at the first time of the spell "Sap Will" is lower than 15% .. if it works you get MUCH MORE AGRO than before and will live 10 seks longer, if you dont get it to stick you are gone anyways.</p> <p>My way? Dont use the crappy spell in raids. use it only at the end of fights in groups. It has no need to be casted in solo mode. In raid i prefer to hit the mob with my damage spells to do at least SOMETHING usefull besides the relatively low manaregen of 27 points in adept III for the group. Becasue 16 seconds long the pets u use to confuse the target bring 6 (pets) x 8 hits (every 2 second 1 hit) of around 30 to 35 dmg (IF every hit is a hit and not a miss, which i doubt will ever occure) and 2 dead healers, lots of powereating heals to DDs and casters which have been hit by AE while the mob turned around like nuts because of the pet taunts.</p> <p>I hope that explains how it works</p> <hr></blockquote>I was not talking about epics. Only heroics.</span><div></div>

[Manyak]

<DIV>one very good use for IA is when ur duoing heroic mobs with another illu. slot of the tmes (especially in places like poets) ull get a huge group of mobs...like 6-8 of em. Easiest way to take them out is to have one person cast IA on them, then both you guys go all out on the aoe. if most of the mobs arent dead right beofre the first IA is done, then the second illu can cast it. me and another illu duod all of poets last night using this method.</DIV>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>one very good use for IA is when ur duoing heroic mobs with another illu. slot of the tmes (especially in places like poets) ull get a huge group of mobs...like 6-8 of em. Easiest way to take them out is to have one person cast IA on them, then both you guys go all out on the aoe. if most of the mobs arent dead right beofre the first IA is done, then the second illu can cast it. me and another illu duod all of poets last night using this method.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ahhh nice strat.</P> <P>Now if only I could find another Illusionist.  I heard there were one or two...but I think it is a rumor.</P>

[Chrysostom]

You keep thinking your needed on instance/named heroics.  You just keep telling your self that until you watch a ranger chain stun Cazel and wonder the group even bothered taking you. <div></div>

[Pogball]

Yeah and coercers can chain stun names, such as Cazel for the whole fight. This was really depressing.

[Chrysostom]

<div></div>Coercers stuns are fine by me. They are the other control class. Coercers also cannot perma-stun for multiple minutes as far as I know. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Chrysostom on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:40 AM</span>

[Darmash]

I suppose coercers can chain stun + stifle like we do ? <div></div>

[zit]

<P>coercer stun abilities depend a bit on environment.</P> <P>while illu get at lvl 50 an AoE with stifle, coercer get an PBAoE with stun. so it depend weather there are mobs nearby if they can use it or not.</P> <P>pre nerf a lvl 60 coercer would have had in optimal case a stun for 11sec+6sec+6sec =23 sec chain stun. all spells on 30 sec recast. (i dont know duration after nerf though). one of their special spells (think instead of spellshield) is also a stun proc, with a fairly high chance to proc when the mob hits.</P> <P>so for chain stunning coercer have an edge over pretty much every class, including illus. illu at the other hand have an edge when it comes to stifle. both classes are able to keep a mob perma stun-stifled.</P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Coercers stun/stfle ratio is basically the opposite of the illusionist's. If an Illu can hold a mob stifled for 80% of the fight and stunned the other 20%, a Coercer can hold a mob stifled for 20% and stunned for 80%. Those aint the exact numbers, but thats basically how it works.</DIV>

[jun]

<P>"You keep thinking your needed on instance/named heroics.  You just keep telling your self that until you watch a ranger chain stun Cazel and wonder the group even bothered taking you."</P> <P>Personal opinion here but any group that brings a ranger in to chain stun instead of DPS needs to seriously re-evaluate where the most bang for the buck is.</P> <P> </P> <P>VR,</P> <P>Kailen - 60 Illusionist Faydark</P>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> junzu wrote:<BR> <P>"You keep thinking your needed on instance/named heroics.  You just keep telling your self that until you watch a ranger chain stun Cazel and wonder the group even bothered taking you."</P> <P>Personal opinion here but any group that brings a ranger in to chain stun instead of DPS needs to seriously re-evaluate where the most bang for the buck is.</P> <P> </P> <P>VR,</P> <P>Kailen - 60 Illusionist Faydark</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For the purpose of Cazel, who cares if they have the ranger there for chain stun.  It wouldn't be a mistake.  All that ability is needed for is 1 mob in the whole zone.  The rest of the time he's DPSing as any ranger would.  An enchanter would be fine too.  Frankly we used everyone stuns on Cazel because I can't keep him perma stunned and stifle doesn't stop his AE stun (or at least not the last few times I did it.  It worked early on in DoF).

[zit]

<P><SPAN>Well, I could be wrong here, but from my understanding ranger are keeping a mob stunned by using stun poisons. Which has no influence in any form on their damage output and wouldn’t <SPAN> </SPAN>lower their dps. </SPAN></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From my experience the best Cazel groups dont include an enchanter. they go with a templar and / or high dps classes. like in most other content of the game, the chanter can help weaker groups to still success though.</DIV>

[trenor]

<P>The best cazel grp most deinfetly contains a chanter.  The chanter mes pulls cazel adds are burned. Then mt behind cazel. He attacks mt stunned cazel is stifled drop illusory allies then burn down cazel.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fiz</P>