Some notes from Moorgard

[Darmash]

This was about the nerf of stun potions : <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=79904#M79904" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=79904#M79904</a> <p><font color="#ff99cc">Moorgard wrote : There are two separate issues here. First, the effect of stuns/stifles on epic mobs. Second, the impact such a change has on classes that rely on stuns/stifles as recognizable elements of their class.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff99cc">The first issue is pretty easy to address. While some of you might argue that the use of stuns adds an element of strategy to a fight, it effectively creates a default strategy. If you know MobX can be stunned and thus have its damage output completely negated for a given period of time, stun isn't a strategy choice but a necessity. Adding a reduction or variability doesn't really change that; it either makes stun abilities appear lame ("it's useless because it doesn't do anything anyway") or makes raid forces compensate with numbers to achieve the same effect ("a stun only lasts 1/5 as long, so let's add 4 more stunners to the raid").</font></p> <p><font color="#ff99cc">Now by all means, we could make some raids where stunning the mob was the intended strategy. But then what becomes of the guild that doesn't have the right classes to achieve that ideal effect? It becomes a roadblock to content that they are otherwise capable of consuming. I'm not saying there aren't ways around that, but we generally prefer to avoid those kinds of situations.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff99cc">As far as the stun potions go, we did not intend them to affect epics. Here's a general rule of thumb: if we make a change that affects 9 ways to do a thing but someone finds a 10th way that was unaffected, we probably meant to change number 10 and will do so when we find it.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff99cc">Now, back to that second issue. We are aware that enchanters in particular get frustrated by having spell lines that basically have no effect on epic mobs. It's a topic we've been discussing a lot lately, though we haven't posted our course of action yet. Again, silence on our part doesn't mean we don't see an issue or don't care about it; it just means we're deciding what we feel the best course of action to be.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff99cc">We absolutely want all classes to feel useful on raids. Nobody likes to feel like they aren't making a significant contribution to the success of their guild or raid force.</font></p>  Some light in the tunnel ? <div></div>

[zit]

<P>so what tells us the fact that scouts get a Dev response immidiately on a matter that is only secondary to their class, but enchanter who are primary affected were not even considered worth a small hint in all these weeks?</P> <P>i read a complaint of a fighter recently who was mourning that Devs ignore his class completely. as prove he mentioned that they didnt get a Dev post in their class forum for at least one month now. Imagine ! One month no Dev post in the class forum and they feel neglected already.........</P>

[Zebsen]

<DIV>I'm not asking this to start a hate thread or anything, but mainly for my own knowledge:</DIV> <DIV>Have we ever got a developer post in our forum?  Not a moderator, but a dev?  I honestly don't think we've ever had one, but I will admit that I didn't use the forums much until about 3-4 months ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's good to see that we get some kind of hint at some form of future developer love...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zebsen</DIV>

[SunT]

<P>I thought there were two, but went back to find the one I was SURE was there and it is from Blackguard.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=1524&view=by_date_ascending&page=2" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=1524&view=by_date_ascending&page=2</A></P> <P>I cut/pasted the following from that post.  Kind of funny to look back at all the crap this class has gone thru.  We were Soooo lame at rollout.  If I hadn't rolled my pally for sanity I would have certainly quit EQ2.</P> <P> </P> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>To the above, I would add...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>AOE Taunt removes the visual effect on the mezzed mob.  No real big deal but the graphic is helpful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>And targeting needs to be reworked.  TAB far to often brings up a Harvest Node or a mob in a different group.  There should be a key that Cycles 'engaged mobs only'.  This would make things much easier.  Especially in areas like CoB where only one of the non- aggro Mobs was accidentally aggroed by someone...finding it is very difficult.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>__________________________________________________ _______________</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>I think if you look at any one of the individual issues posted in this string, we all sound like a bunch of whiners.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>But when you take all of these things as a whole and apply them to the playability of the class, what you essentially get is a classed mired in frustration.  Too many short duration spells to maintain compounded by to many bugs in how the 'core' abilities function, i.e. CC which is our forte. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>I can deal with short buffs, I can deal with only being able to stop a subway rather than a train, I can deal with a couple quirks that break my mezzes.  I can deal with not knowing who is repeatedly breaking my mezzes.  I can deal with having to be grouped to get any real exp...but add it all up an the class just ain't no fun to play.   Too much stress and too much work and to much down time going LFG.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>I loved being Enchanter in EQ1.  Pre a few of the nerfs, EQ1 Chanters were overpowered.  Possibly still overpowered after the nerfs.  I think SOE has spent too much time trying to limit the power of this class and over did it.  I feel they limited our abilities in ways that add frustration and take from the playability hence taking away the 'Fun' of playing.  If you can't do your job effectively, the game loses the 'Fun'.  In EQ1 you could rarely take a break.  In EQ2 it is worse.  You can't carve and keep up on your buffs, and solo for real exp and loot is a joke.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>I don't know how things are on your servers, but 30+ Chanters are a very rare find on mine.  I feel the reason for this is the cumlative statements above.  This class was prenerfed by SOE, but not in ability, it was nerfed by frustration.  I want to be one of those 'Rare' 30+ Chanters, but if it isn't any 'Fun' then what is the point?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>I think if they want to improve the 'Fun' aspect of the class, then they need to fix the above stated bugs, but they need to change two main things that effect the playability of the Class.  Buff duration and tell me why my mezz is no longer up.   If we had these, we would be less of a buff bot and I could train people to work with my class.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff33></FONT> </DIV>

[Barobra]

I am really glad that he posted this response. Was nice to see something actually said from moor that something needs to be done with us for epics. I just hope I like the outcome... <div></div>

[Tuleri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR>I am really glad that he posted this response. Was nice to see something actually said from moor that something needs to be done with us for epics. I just hope I like the outcome...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Deffinatly.  I have gone from very dissapointed to cautiously optimistic

[Sug]

<DIV>The part of the post that bothered me was regarding guilds that did not have people that could stun epics thus they would be ineffective.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well the entire arguement is that there are not many enchanters because most people dont really need them.   If you gave us purpose there would be more of us.   And I am sorry, if your guild cant recruit people they need then yes, they will be ineffective against some or all epic mobs.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we couldnt get healers into our guild then we would ineffective.  If we had no guardians or monks or "fill in the blank" in our guild then we would become ineffective all around.    The idea is to have a well balanced raid force to make us all useful.  Those that can, will be more effective than those that cant.   I just dont see the logic behind this.   And sure you could stack a raid with enchanters and stun the thing like crazy, but then you lack tanking, heals, dps or whatever.   I thought this was the whole idea behind limiting raid sizes.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the problem is, they are thinking of ways of trying to make us useful but not needed.   IMO they are one in the same.</DIV>

[tawek]

<DIV>Junzu wrote in another thread:<BR><FONT color=#0033ff>"I don't see how this is possible with the forum and our posts in the condition they are.  Hell, "I" am an Illusionist and fear to post here because I will give the appearance of someone who is taking sides against you.  What do you think the Devs are thinking if they come and post in our forum?  Would you guys be thankful that you are getting some communication.... or would you level your barrels and unload the ammo supply on them?  I am thinking the latter of the two."</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Moorgard (or SoE) has written on another forum:<BR><FONT color=#0033ff>"Now, back to that second issue. We are aware that enchanters in particular get frustrated by having spell lines that basically have no effect on epic mobs. It's a topic we've been discussing a lot lately, though we haven't posted our course of action yet. Again, silence on our part doesn't mean we don't see an issue or don't care about it; it just means we're deciding what we feel the best course of action to be."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is very positive news, but what do we get?  Complaints about why he didn't post it in this forum.  Could it be that Junzu is right?  That if the forum looks like a combination of cynical pessimists, and a pack of wolves, straining on the leash to flame a dev, they'll keep well clear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead, let's make it a place which devs will want to come to for insights into the class, rather than relying on /feedbacks and illusionists they meet in-game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come on guys, lighten up!  There are a lot of good ideas in this forum, but they won't do much good if no-one reads them.</DIV>

[jun]

<P><FONT color=#ff99cc>Moorgard wrote :<BR>There are two separate issues here. First, the effect of stuns/stifles on epic mobs. Second, the impact such a change has on classes that rely on stuns/stifles as recognizable elements of their class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc>The first issue is pretty easy to address. While some of you might argue that the use of stuns adds an element of strategy to a fight, it effectively creates a default strategy. If you know MobX can be stunned and thus have its damage output completely negated for a given period of time, stun isn't a strategy choice but a necessity. Adding a reduction or variability doesn't really change that; it either makes stun abilities appear lame ("it's useless because it doesn't do anything anyway") or makes raid forces compensate with numbers to achieve the same effect ("a stun only lasts 1/5 as long, so let's add 4 more stunners to the raid").</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>He is correct.  Any smart raid leader would quickly determine the needed strat for 'X' mob is to have an overabundance of stunners in order to trivialize the event.  This is bad.  So, if they bowed to our appeals and gave us back stuns/stifles on Epics (all or specific ones) but severely pulled back on the effect, we WOULD claim they had gimped the effect.  I would rather they got it right and balanced than insult our intellegence by doing that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc>Now by all means, we could make some raids where stunning the mob was the intended strategy. But then what becomes of the guild that doesn't have the right classes to achieve that ideal effect? It becomes a roadblock to content that they are otherwise capable of consuming. I'm not saying there aren't ways around that, but we generally prefer to avoid those kinds of situations.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>I do not concur with this line of thought from Moorguard because we are NOT the only class with the ability to stun.  So lets say there are essentially 4 different classes that have the ability, if you follow his thought process through... he is saying that a particular guild contains "NONE" of the right classes to achieve the effect.  That means they are missing out on some VERY critical raid classes to begin with... not just a Coercer or Illusionist.  Tanks, assassins, rangers, wizards, necros and some other classes stun and if the guild is missing those... I doubt very seriously they are raiding anything.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc>As far as the stun potions go, we did not intend them to affect epics. Here's a general rule of thumb: if we make a change that affects 9 ways to do a thing but someone finds a 10th way that was unaffected, we probably meant to change number 10 and will do so when we find it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>This makes sense as well.  If you are trying to eliminate the effect across the board, it is meant for effect regardless of how it is achieved.  Otherwise, you are segregating specific classes and gimping them... not just the effect.  Simpy put, they missed one.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc>Now, back to that second issue. We are aware that enchanters in particular get frustrated by having spell lines that basically have no effect on epic mobs. It's a topic we've been discussing a lot lately, though we haven't posted our course of action yet. Again, silence on our part doesn't mean we don't see an issue or don't care about it; it just means we're deciding what we feel the best course of action to be.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>This is really nice to see.  I just wished there was a way for us to take part in the discussions/debates with regards to our class evolution.  As I have said time and again, it would not make sense to alienate such a dynamically useful class as ours.  I sincerely believe that is NOT their intentions and they are only confirming that here.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc>We absolutely want all classes to feel useful on raids. Nobody likes to feel like they aren't making a significant contribution to the success of their guild or raid force.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>I can almost assure you that the ability to stun/stifle an Epic mob will never happen to the effect where the mob is simply left standing unable to fight/cast for the entire duration of the encounter.  So if that is the result set you are hoping for, I would come to grips with the fact that you will probably never see it.  Are there 'other' ways our class can contribute to a raid force without having the need to trivialize an encounter... certainly!  There are so many ways we can do that if some changes/adjustments are made that would make our class an absolutely positive factor in any given raid encounter.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Which, incidentally, is all I am really hoping for.  I would give up ANY ability the Illusionist class obtains that limits the encounters we are useful on over having an ability that was well suited for ALL raid encounters.  So, in all honesty, I hope Moorguard was only kidding when he said they 'could' make raid encounters where stun/stifle are the strategy.  I'm sorry, that just seems like the easy way out to our issues regarding the effectivness on raids.  That type of change would surely make us a 'niche' class only suitable for possibly 2 out of 15 raid targets... no thanks.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </P> <P>"I think the problem is, they are thinking of ways of trying to make us useful but not needed.   IMO they are one in the same."</P> <P>Wow... that's quite a rought statement to make.  Honestly, I would prefer being 'useful' over needed.  I will tell you now that one of the hardest problems with finding groups/raids or anything FUN in EQ 1 was purely tied back to the concept of the 'Holy Grail' of group dynamics.  You HAD to have a Warrior/Cleric/Wizzi/Chanter/Buff Class type core characters or you were severely limited in what you could accomplish.  Pffaah.</P> <P>I am strongly against any idea that makes one class specifically 'needed' over another.  Its a type of favoratism that alienates so many others.  I adore interchangeability amongst the classes.  It is a difficult balance... and extremely difficult to achieve ability wise.  Too little one way, it is simply a wasted attempt, too far the other way, you appear to rob a primary class of its worth.  I think they are doing well for a first year out type of game.</P> <P>Sorry if I make any of you angry with my observations/ideas... none of them are meant as a personal attack and simply represent a different opinion (not necessarily right or wrong... just different).</P> <P> </P> <P>VR,</P> <P>Kailen 59 Illusionist Faydark</P>

[tawek]

<DIV><EM><FONT color=#66cc66>Having just read through the other thread Moorgard was posting in, perhaps I've overdone my criticism of the Illusionist forum.  Your complaints about him not posting here were mild and polite in comparison. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Junzu,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, it is perfectly possible to allow our stuns, stifles, and mezzes to work on epics, if they gave the epics *massive* resists to them, resists which could not be reduced by either level or debuff.  For example, give a named X2 epic an 80% chance to resist, a X3 90%, and a X4 95%.  If an epic has a 19 in 20 chance to resist a stun, even a raid of 20 illusionists plus 4 others would be unable to chain-stun him.  If really lucky, they might keep him stunned for a minute, but then the epic would get a period where no stuns landed, and the raid would end ... bloodily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I want is a sense of <STRONG>being useful</STRONG> (so not to replace our stuns with interrupts, as we'd never know if they ever landed), and <STRONG>lots to keep me occupied</STRONG> in the raid (so not one stun on a long reuse timer, give us our whole spell line, but greater nerfed against named epics).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would also be great if our three different spell types, stuns, stifles and mezzes, all were slightly more useful in different sitations.  So stifling a melee type would be less useful than stifling a caster epic, with some enounters where mezzing the secondary named was a worthwhile thing to try, even if it stayed unmezzed 70% of the time due to resists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I love about my chanter is not raw power (though with some encounters it has been fun to dazzle my group with it), but variety, complex and interesting tactics, in short ... fun.  It would be great if SoE can make the changes to epics versus stun/stifle/mez not to make us more powerful ... <STRONG>but to make us more fun.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Elleii, 58 Illusionist, Antonia Bayle</DIV><p>Message Edited by tawek21 on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>

[KaltenAlTh]

<DIV>So it's bad to have a raid loaded up with stunners....</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>but if the same raid leader figures out to load up a raid with healers it's ok?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So it's bad to have a raid loaded up with stunners....</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>but if the same raid leader figures out to load up a raid with lots of pure dps it's ok?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So it's bad to have a raid loaded up with stunners....</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>but if the same raid leader figures out to load up a raid with specific resists it's ok?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So it's bad to have a raid loaded up with stunners....</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>but if the same raid leader figures out to load up a raid with good jousting classes it's ok?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't understand why it's ok to load up a raid with all the types mentioned above for specific raids but not acceptable to load up on stunners for some raids.  Or how about loading up a raid with stiffle power for specific mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hell if they took the 4 basic strategies I mentioned first and added in 2 more types of fights/strategies like stun fights and stiffle fights, wouldn't that add more diversity and fun to the game at the same time solveing how to include enchanter classes in epic fights?</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 PM</span>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

Stop being so logical and reasonable <SPAN>K</SPAN>alten.  This is the illusionist forums for goodness sake!:smileytongue:

[jun]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>"but if the same raid leader figures out to load up a raid with healers it's ok?</DIV> <DIV>but if the same raid leader figures out to load up a raid with lots of pure dps it's ok?</DIV> <DIV>but if the same raid leader figures out to load up a raid with specific resists it's ok?</DIV> <DIV>but if the same raid leader figures out to load up a raid with good jousting classes it's ok?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Maybe its just me here... but in all of the cases you listed, the mob IS able to fight back for pretty much the entire encounter.  You change any of those sited classes out with one that can completely 'stun' (cannot cast, cannot move, cannot attack), then you will find the answer you are looking for.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>If you can effectively stun a raid mob and stack the raid with that in mind, you can pretty much eliminate the need for healers and tanks... because if its stunned, no one is taking any damage.  Just sit back at max cast range and have the other half of the raid (wizzi/mage crew) nuke it to the ground.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>No need to be concerned about agro-pong, mobs that are stunned can't agro on anyone... tank, over-nuker, healer... anyone.  Lol... if it does happen to resist one barage of stuns... time your illusory allies amongst your chanters until the stun is back on.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Rinse-Repeat... Raid_Mob (epic x 4) Down!!  Gimp_Stun_Raid Loot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Kailen - 59 Illusionist Faydark</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Darmash]

<div></div>Why has the tank/heal strategy to be the only one available ? Is it better to have an unmovable object (tank with infinite hit points due to enough healers) than an unresistible force (perma stun) ? EQ1 has shown us enough of this stuff, climaxing with the Luclin aberration, with fights lasting close to an hour between one tank healed by a CH chain and one unique mob, the end of the fight being given by a dps force as nerfed as possible to be able to not take the hundreds of thousands hit points of the boss before at least 20 minutes were spent (for reference : Emperor Ssra) EQ1 devs learned better and actually they designed more interesting fights in the next expansions. Especially since the team who is currently designing Vanguard was gone. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Darmash on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 PM</span>

[Barobra]

I think the general opinion from most players and all the devs is that stuns on epics is just too powerful, and for good reason. We need a role on epics but I think stuns are not the correct way to approach it. I personally do not really have a good alternative, but have read many good ones on the boards. I think it should depend on the situation. For example, A raid mob that has a powerful AOE and low melee dps should resist a stifle MUCH more then a mob that has crazy crushing and a wimpy AOE. Somehow with stifle I think we can reach a middle ground where a single class is not making that epic mob way too easy. But I dont even know if thats possible with the way they coded this game. We want to be helpful but not overpowering. I think thats the hardest thing to do in this game when you have to worry about so many classes and make them all mesh without making any one way too powerful. And the hardest part is hey, its all based on opinion. What you may think is ok for one class another person may think is too powerful because of what they can do with there class. Alot of people on this boards speak that this should be this way or this should be that way. When, they may only know 20% of all the skills in the game. How can you be so certain what you speak is fair when you know so little of the BIG picture. The devs have to worry about EVERYONE, not just any one class. I just think people should really think about this before you go off about any one subject. Try to think about what you say. I am not trying to defend the devs and EQ2, I have issues with this game. I would just like to see everyone contribute instead of rant. <div></div>

[jun]

<P>"Why has the tank/heal strategy to be the only one available ?"</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Now THAT is a question worth really talking about.  Glad you brought it up!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Where to begin... well, I personally think that the whole game revolves around this concept.  And not to my liking in the least, considering the overwhelming dynamics this game is capable of.  Why can't a raid force of casters take out a Raid (Epic x 4) mob?  Realistically, they are capable of generating a much larger amount of DPS in a shorter time.  Why is it not feasible to augment THOSE types of raids with the proper accessory (power regen, stifle, stun, root, resists) classes and achieve a strategical and satisfying victory?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Isn't there someone employed at SOE with the imagination to devise a means to accomplish this?  Why must the game concept remain stuck (for lack of a better word) on this strategy?  I think there is a lot we can figure out if we just look at things differently.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>For instance, since the major concept behind this game is the Tank/Healer strategy, doesn't that make just about every other class an accessory to that idea?  Is it really that critical if one of those classes have significant issues with their abilities?  Consider this, if all the coercers and illusionists disappeared from the game... what would be the impact?  Don't we 'share' our beneficial abilities (power regen, resists, stat buffs, etc) with several other classes?  Now, put the same shoe on the other foot and remove the guardians and berserkers... what is the impact to the game?  Now try it with the healers, what would be the impact?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Folks, the point is, without those two 'key' roles, the game is dead or may as well be.  I doubt you will ever see a raid force consisting purely of casters killing ANY Epic x 4 mob.  So, this kind of explains why when the tanks go nuts on their boards, there is a Dev there to explain things to them.  When they have a critical class bug, it rates a 'hot-patch' instead of waiting for the next LU.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Personally, I don't have anything against any other class in the game.  I also don't have anything against an evolving tactical game where classes other than the two main staples can achieve victory.  I would love to see MORE raid dynamics introduced into this game.  I would like to see less 'single-minded' ability nerfs in order to reinforce the tank/healer type raid scenarios.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Yes!  I enjoy providing a benefit to any group I can join.  NO!  I do not necessarily want to remain a slave to that 'single' concept.  If the Devs would take a step back, put the nerf hammers down, and begin to assess OTHER strategies where tank/healers were not involved as a primary staple, perhaps they could see more clearly what these reductions to our abilities are doing to the class.  Doesn't anyone over there ever raise questions like... "Well, what if there were no tanks?  What if there were no healers?"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>All I ask is a little growth in the concept... lateral growth of course (don't want to overpower anyone).  Man, what we could achieve in this game if we had the nerf-cuffs off!  Listen, I don't want to bite the head off a developer, nor do I want to boycott SOE by cancelling my account and deleting my characters.  I want to PLAY!  I want to RAID!  I want to WIN!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>But most of all... I want to be PROUD of my character and ENJOY the game with my friends.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Kailen - 59 Illusionist Faydark</FONT></P>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<DIV>Well said Kailen.   This is exactly what we were saying months ago and we keep being told to wait for the combat revamp ... the revamp did fullfill in many ways what was promised to enchanters, by providing: some new and interesting spell lines, the increased dps, the increased soloablity, the end to mindnumbing raid breeze clicking, ect.  And for the most part they were able to do these things in ways that seemed "illusionist'tic" and most Illy's were preaty happy over all.  But a few months later it seems like we are asking for the same (or similar fixes) all over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lack of ablity on a raid,  before our primary job was to keep 24 people breeze buffed (not fun on long raids like SotL) now ... well now our main job seems to well kinda hard to define cause other then some mediocer dps we dont really do that much ... definatly nothing for a raid that other classes couldnt do as well or better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloablity has been decreased, yep it still can be done ... I kill mobs solo nearly every day (but I did that before LU13 also). and while soloing is still improved over the pre lu13 days .. we have had our ablities redueced.  Other classes can solo faster and safer, with less downtime.  We definatly aren't balanced at the Archtype level in soloing ablities. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grouping,  not much as really changed for us in grouping,  the need for CC hasnt really increased so much as to make it required; our utility, is situaltionaly usefull but hardly required, our dps has imrpoved but so has everyone else's,  we are still "the pegleg for handicaped groups."   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the bottem line,  after all is said and done we are basically back at the same point as we were back before LU13.  Things changed and spells and ablities got shuffled around but the bottem line questions of: "where do I fit in?" "what is my purpose in a raid?" "whats the vision for the illusionist (and enchanters in general) look like for the future?"   are still vaild and we are still waiting for an answer.</DIV>

[jun]

<DIV>I agree... I have seen some changes that didn't provide a neon sign pointing out our obvious purpose down the road.  But I really don't expect them to introduce any 'one' thing that will.  I can't even say I am completely frustrated at the Dev staff either... I know what it feels like to be on their trench-line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a fast-paced, evolutionary game (contrary to popular belief) and I seriously believe we are getting changes to the game as rapidly as they can be achieved.  Honestly, the type of changes we seem to be craving now (fix us raid-wise) affect planning, and scope far greater than any type of solo/small group encounter.  It isn't so easy to just make X spell do this and everything will be ok in a raid scenario.  Especially if the raids are unique encounters themselves (which I do hope becomes the predominant case) with variations to their successful completion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are 'rules' or 'guidelines' that dicatate programatic behavior (how the raid mob reacts, or how X effect alters the overall design of the event) and those types of changes must be carefully considered in order to provide a 'challenging' and rewarding encounter.  Its really hard to explain given that I do not know the inner workings of their engines, and all the rules of thier interface platforms.  But one thing I can say with the utmost confidence is, I bet its really complex and extremely integrated with the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in no way trying to say what you are asking for is impossible or irrelevant.  I will continue to encourage my fellow Illusionists to voice their issues and discuss them with each other.  I will try to give you guys something else to consider when you can't seem to understand why 'X_Simple_Change' isn't made in the next weekly patch. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>VR,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kailen - 59 Illusionist Faydark</DIV>

[tawek]

<DIV><STRONG>How about allowing Illusory Allies against epics?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would be great if the raid was about to wipe.  The Illusionist could cast Illusory Allies to give a few seconds respite.  The respite wouldn't be long; the epic would chomp through the allies in bare seconds.  But it might be enough to turn the raid round.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>It's not as powerful as a stun as an epic could still cast AOE specials on the raid.  But with a recast timer of 3 minutes, even a few seconds of pseudo-stun would be very powerful and would need heavy restrictions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>The mem-wipe at end would have to go ... way too powerful against an epic. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To prevent chain casting trivialising an encounter, spell should:</DIV> <UL> <LI>be heavily resisted</LI> <LI>Or (my favorite) the hate generated should stay with the illusionist ... so would be a suicide spell and mighty tricky to chain-cast <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></LI></UL> <DIV>It would be a very situational spell.  If cast at the wrong time, by grabbing agro, it might turn an epic's AOE on the healers, and wipe the raid ... just like a badly timed ice comet.  But if the epic is running rampant through the healers, the illusionist could cast illusory allies to give the tanks time to regain agro.  The illusionist would then take agro and die, but might be the hero of the hour <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tawek21 wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>How about allowing Illusory Allies against epics?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would be great if the raid was about to wipe.  The Illusionist could cast Illusory Allies to give a few seconds respite.  The respite wouldn't be long; the epic would chomp through the allies in bare seconds.  But it might be enough to turn the raid round.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>It's not as powerful as a stun as an epic could still cast AOE specials on the raid.  But with a recast timer of 3 minutes, even a few seconds of pseudo-stun would be very powerful and would need heavy restrictions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>The mem-wipe at end would have to go ... way too powerful against an epic. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To prevent chain casting trivialising an encounter, spell should:</DIV> <UL> <LI>be heavily resisted</LI> <LI>Or (my favorite) the hate generated should stay with the illusionist ... so would be a suicide spell and mighty tricky to chain-cast <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></LI></UL> <DIV>It would be a very situational spell.  If cast at the wrong time, by grabbing agro, it might turn an epic's AOE on the healers, and wipe the raid ... just like a badly timed ice comet.  But if the epic is running rampant through the healers, the illusionist could cast illusory allies to give the tanks time to regain agro.  The illusionist would then take agro and die, but might be the hero of the hour <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's already allowed.  But the pets die so fast that the memblur never goes off, and the Illusionist ends up with all the hate.<BR>

[tawek]

<DIV>Really?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tried it against Lockjaw, and got "Target is too powerful".  I'll have to try it on another raid some other time.</DIV>

[Barobra]

That is interesting. I have never seen that message when trying to cast IA on any raid target. I usually try just to see if it works. Do not think I have tried it on lockjaw yet though.<div></div>

[Pins]

<DIV>Well, I goofed while we were fighting vaz'gok, and well, it worked just fine and dandy.</DIV>

[tawek]

<DIV>I've used Illusory Allies on a named epic exactly once ... on Lockjaw a coupla weeks ago when we were wiping anyway ... and I got the message.  But my guess is that they could change that spell from day to day.  Might well work on him now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night I was tempted to try it on a raid ... but I worry about causing a wipe playing with spells.  Probably I worry too much ... lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it does work, even if only for 2 seconds, I wonder if it might be worthwhile in some exceptional situations.  Have to think on this.</DIV>

[trenor]

<P>Illusory allies still works on every epic you must ahve hit the wrong button.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fiz</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sug]

<P>IA can be a very dangerous spell on a raid and it willbe obvious that you screwed up if things go bad.   If they lasted 15 seconds it might be a different story, but something with an aoe that kills them all, and at the same time you have a casters and melee not realizing the mem whipe is coming in a matter of 2 seconds, then as soon as they are dead so are you and whoever else hit them during that 2 seconds of IA.   I cant see the MT building up hate enough to just pull the agro back.   I usually only cast this spell for fun to burn down a heroic when its at 20% life.   </P> <P>I think that if the raid is about to whipe, then it's usually better for people to just FD, wait for the reset and try again.</P>

[Pins]

To be lazy, I just cast this on the poet's scarab ring event snakes. Cast them on the snake, everybody just goes DPS, in 15s, the snake dies, and nobody needs healing.

[jun]

<P>I would definately like to see some improvements to this spell with regards to control.  Its a bit scary to use (even if you are in partial retreat) because the mob will pong back and forth between the IA's until they are all dead.  This may not seem like a big deal when the Epic's AE is actually area, but the result when its directional is quite distressing.  If the dps is of Epic stature... it takes mere seconds to kill an IA and move on to the next making position impossible to maintain.</P> <P>I can think of only two other situations where something like this was comparable (both in EQ 1).  First, being summoned.  Second, the spiders that TL'd you all over the place in Dragon Necropolis.  Of course, you can learn to pull a mob (proximity agro) and avoid the summon, it is no less irritating for someone that has never encountered the effect.  Likewise, while the TL from the spiders is 'fun' and 'different' when you get higher level, it is almost a sure certainty of chaos and disaster to see your MT TL'd way out of heal range in the middle of a dragon construct's bones, with less than 10% health.</P> <P>That is the type of issue I see regarding the use of IA's on raids.  It is potentially dangerous to use when you are attempting to maintain a mobs position.  Yeah, having the tank drop has a similar effect, but he's dead and cannot evaluate on the Hate list any longer.  Lets just say we wanted to use IA for the purpose of 'emergency relief'.  Say the tank is dropping really fast in HP, and the raid leader needs a few seconds to adjust some healing to him to offset the damage being incurred.</P> <P>Lets also say that the IA's once summoned was cast as a 'raid/group friendly' spell and we could target the MA.  Now, when the spell goes off... the IA's proceed directly to where the MT is positioned and assumes complete agro.  This type of use would allow the MT to maintain position, the mob to maintain position AND direction, and provide the needed relief.</P> <P>In my estimation, THAT would be an extremely beneficial service during a raid.  It wouldn't require any extraordinary differences in the effects of the spell... just merely an attitude adjustment on the IA's per say.  Give them a 'spawn flag' to report to when they are pop'd.</P> <P>Just some food for thought...</P> <P>Lol... yeah, i wiggle my fingers, but I think like a tank :p</P> <P>VR,</P> <P>Kailen - 60 Illusionist Faydark</P> <p>Message Edited by junzu on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 PM</span>