Our AoE Stun in comparison to Warlock's AoE Stun

[Pins]

No, this is not a cry for a nerf to Warlocks if any of you are trolling the boards, this is a question for why is our stun worse than yours?Compare:<img src=http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/spells/Dazzling%20Array.JPG><img src=http://www.physics.uc.edu/~pinskie/cloud.jpg>Sooo, anybody got any thoughts about it?Costs ~60 less power, and does damage. Their disadvantages, it takes 2s longer to cast, and lasts 0.5s less.Anybody got a clue about why our AoE stun is such crap vs. a Warlocks?<p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:48 PM</span>

[tawek]

<DIV>Actually, our AOE stun is one of my favorite spells.  I can keep casting it without fear of agro (it generates none).  It stuns the enemy group for 4 seconds, and is not often resisted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I often use it as an opener for a fight, useful if the healer is hit by lag before they get their spells off.  I use it if a priest or dps grabs agro ... 4 seconds is enough for the tank to regain agro, me to cast our long stun, or mez.  And I use it if I get agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The warlock spell does a nice bit of AOE damage, but I don't like the stun element.  3 second cast-time seems an age for a 3.5 second stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While the dps on the warlock spell is nice, I prefer ours.</DIV>

[Fizwi]

<DIV>I wouldn't say crap, but it does look like the power cost is out of whack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would expect to pay more for my 1 sec cast time -- 3 seconds is stupidly long (ask a Warlock, all their AEs cast like molasses).  And a .5 increase in duration seems like a little, but that's around a 16% increase, which is not totally insignificant.  Don't forget ours is aggro-free...yippeehooray!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, <STRONG>all of this is worth less than a troll's fart</STRONG> in the face of the Warlock's 500-900 damage.  1/3 less power and tons of damage to boot...doesn't add up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't advocate adding damage to the Dazzling line (that's not our schtick), but it does look like something should be done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ideas for fixes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- cut the power cost significantly (around 50%)</DIV> <DIV>- increase the stun duration (at least 25%ish)</DIV> <DIV>- make it affect all targets in an encounter, not just 4</DIV> <DIV>- decrease recast (10s?  8s?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like the recast change the best, but that's just me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SunT]

Thier radius is much bigger as well.

[Chrysostom]

Our AoE stun is one of our most useful spells. If you want to add damage to it, apply dynamism. Sorry, I just can't agree with the OP on this one. <div></div>

[Sug]

I can agree with the origanal poster,  I think our power cost should be significantly lower.   I think the sadest thing is that they have an aoe that does more damage than our DD nuke.

[Pins]

<DIV>I could care less about the damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the fact is, their AoE stun is better in many other aspects as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just noticed the effect radius too, well [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], another thing to add to the list.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lower the power cost, drop the max targets, do something to it to make ours more powerful.</DIV>

[zit]

<DIV>I agree with Pinski, that our AE stun would need some improvement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first change that the spells needs is to get the limited number of targets removed.</DIV> <DIV>I must admit though i have not checked yet if the spell actually still only affects max 5 targets or if it got changed and just the description is outdated. anyone has done some testing? the same for the warlock spell. the posted pic shows limited target for the warlock stun, but i am not sure if it still works this way. i know for sure though that the 4 sec stun on warlock Devastation (you remember that mega uber damage AE spell warlocks get, yes it has an AE stun components too) has no limitation on max targets anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The high spell cost is another joke IMO. The reason why it is that high is obvious: Because the Devs design the spells on the drawboard and dont have much imagination what is going on while playing and using those spells. And on the drawboard the warlock spells have about same cost as the illu stuns, as the only thing that counts there is the lvl / tier you recieve the spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the cost for both spell lines in direct comparison would be:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ccff00>warlock</FONT> --------- -<FONT color=#66ffff>illu</FONT> </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>89</FONT>-----------------<FONT color=#66ffff>no spell yet</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>138</FONT> ----------------<FONT color=#66ffff>131</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>187</FONT>-----------------<FONT color=#66ffff>186</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>no upgrade yet</FONT>---<FONT color=#66ffff>241</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#ffffff>we know this problem from our power regen line already where bards can do better regen at high lvl atm due to similar reason. </FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#ffffff>that maybe after 3 more expansions or what ever and in a few years time i eventually might be able to stun for cheaper than a warlock and regen better than a bard is a very lame excusion. who knows if the game is still running then or if i am still playing, or if there havent been 5 more combat revamps that make every current spell obsolete. i am playing now, and right now the spell cost on our AE stun doesnt make any sense.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#ffffff>so IMO the power cost needs adjusted and the target limit removed. i am not able to compete with warlocks for their dps, there also shouldnt be any doubt who got an advantage when it comes to stuns.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>edit to add:</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THE ABOVE POSTED SCREENSHOTS OF WARLOCK SPELLS ARE <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> UP TO DATE.</DIV> <DIV>acutally they seem to be beta screenshots.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>current stats on Dark Nebula are :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.9 sec instead of above 3.5 sec duration </DIV> <DIV>effect radius only 10m instead of 25m.</DIV> <DIV>NO target limit anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by zitha on <SPAN class=date_text>11-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:18 AM</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by zitha on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:25 AM</span>

[Etillchou]

Hmm I rather see a lot of other spells upgraded before they look at our AoE stun.The warlock spell does damage.. Well i'm glad ours doesn't. The fact that we dont get any hate when casting it is very handy. For sure with the agroo update that's on test atm.okay they could remove the target limit if they want but how often do you really find a group with more then 5 mobs in it. Its encounter based anyway.. Wonder if the warlock one is encounter basededit: the warlock one is encounter based also.. hmmz maybe we will get our target limit removed.. but as said above.. dont complain about stuff that's pretty useless atm. dont complain about every spell we have. Just complain about those spells that seriously need some upgrading first<p>Message Edited by Etillchou on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 PM</span>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etillchou wrote:<BR>Hmm I rather see a lot of other spells upgraded before they look at our AoE stun.<BR><BR>The warlock spell does damage.. Well i'm glad ours doesn't. The fact that we dont get any hate when casting it is very handy. For sure with the agroo update that's on test atm.<BR><BR>okay they could remove the target limit if they want but how often do you really find a group with more then 5 mobs in it. Its encounter based anyway.. Wonder if the warlock one is encounter based<BR><BR>edit: the warlock one is encounter based also.. hmmz maybe we will get our target limit removed.. but as said above.. dont complain about stuff that's pretty useless atm. dont complain about every spell we have. Just complain about those spells that seriously need some upgrading first <P>Message Edited by Etillchou on <SPAN class=date_text>11-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I want the entire class fixed, not just bits and pieces.  If we dont' bring up ALL our issues, then they will never get looked at.  And yes, i do find groups with more than 5 mobs in it.  Larger encounters in raids are out there quite often.</P>

[zit]

i think the fact that other classes get the limited target tag removed on their AE stuns while they keep it for enchanter pretty well reflects how the Devs are approaching our class. everything we have, especially CC spells, suddenly seems to be overpowered even if others have it in similar or even better form. something <DIV>just dont seem ok here. its a general attitude that needs fix. the Devs are long overdue to come up with a concept what they want do with our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for those who remember DoF beta, at start they gave us real "mage dps", but heavily reduced our CC abilities. at end they reversed it, cut back our damage but gave us excelent CC abilities in return. what happens now is that we get our CC abilities heavily reduced again for what ever reason, but nothing much in return this time. so where should this end?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[tawek]

<DIV>Zitha asks "so where should this end?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll tell you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We've had a truckload of nerfs, and I've not been complaining about them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I want is some compensation in the form of a (very limited) form of crowd control for big epics.  Our stuns/stifles/mezzes having their durations reduced ten-fold, or better, have them resisted nine out of ten times.  At worst, let our stuns/stifles/mezzes interrupt, instead of stun/stifle/mez.  Anything to allow us to do something akin to our class-defining job when in raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(By the way, another reason I like our stun is it great at landing on high level mobs which usually resist our spells.  Landed it on a lev 65 recently, while only lev 55.  I suspect combination stun/damage spells are resisted more often)</DIV>

[Catl]

Our ae stun is one of those faux-useful spells that give the impression of being effective, but if not used at all, the encounter runs the same course.

[Etillchou]

it is effective imo. It can stun a difficult group encounter which might just you the edge on those first few hard 5 seconds from an encounter. even when you cant stun the main mob from the encounter, you can stun the adds he has.. And then 3 or 4 seconds without you being able to take away agroo from the tank (spell doesn't generate hate) is great.(for that reason i'm glad it doesnt do dmg and doesnt create hate)

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etillchou wrote:<BR>it is effective imo. It can stun a difficult group encounter which might just you the edge on those first few hard 5 seconds from an encounter. even when you cant stun the main mob from the encounter, you can stun the adds he has..<BR><BR>And then 3 or 4 seconds without you being able to take away agroo from the tank (spell doesn't generate hate) is great.<BR><BR>(for that reason i'm glad it doesnt do dmg and doesnt create hate)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>actually its a two folded sword and we have always to consider the group set up.</P> <P>some tanks rely on getting hit to build agro (e.g.guardian). so if we stun on income we are working against the agro generating skills of these tanks and reduce the innitial agro they can generate.</P> <P>of course its the warlock who will get blamed later for casting to soon or being nuke happy.... and the warlock at the other hand will come to the conclusion that this tank xy or tank class xy plain sux. :smileywink:</P>

[Nupr]

It's a quick cast stun.  Please don't call attention to it or they'll nerf it with some ridiculous cast time like our other stun.  Heh.  This spell has saved my life and several others on many occasions and I'm quite content to deal with the power cost as opposed to seeing what they'll do if they "look" at it.

[zit]

<P>its really a sad sign if we do not dare to point out any imbalance anymore in fear that the very few positive aspects some of our spells still provide could be nerfed in return.</P>

[Jaxidi]

<DIV>Heh, if you want to compare ae stuns, take a look at Summoner's lvl16 Seism.  It's pbaoe (not encounter-restricted) DD/stun with like a 3.5s duration on the stun and a max of 8 targets.  The DD attached with it does about 250dmg I believe.  That sounds pretty damned powerful compared to even our best ae stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just another spell to look at when looking at ae stuns.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<div>I would also like to have a PbAoE stun line ... something to do when there is lots of small encouters of 2 or 3 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Azamien-Dermorate wrote:<div>I would also like to have a PbAoE stun line ... something to do when there is lots of small encouters of 2 or 3 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>That's coming over into the Coercer domain, we get an encounter stifle, they get a PBAoE stun. We definately don't need one as that'd make our classes even more similiar.

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<div>ok how about a PB anything ... I dont have a single spell that works out of the encounter .... I get jelous when other classes can ae adds that arent linked .. my baby zerker has several PB spells that aftect anything within range ... I would like something ... stun/nuke/dot/stiffle/root what ever</div>

[Zygon]

<div></div>My only complaint is that Epic targets have increased resistance to their stuns where our's simply don't work on them at all.

[Pins]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ZygonID wrote:<div></div>My only complaint is that Epic targets have increased resistance to their stuns where our's simply don't work on them at all.<hr></blockquote>Their stun doesn't work either.  It just does damage.

[Sorrowson]

<div></div><p>Coercer lvl 50 AE stun is something like: (to lazy too logg on and look up exactly)</p><p>Cast time: 3 secs</p><p>Power: 250</p><p>Duration: 6.9 secs</p><p>Max targets : 8</p><p>Damage (around max 1.6k per target at M1 with good INT)</p><p> </p><p>Yay <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>Cheers</p><p> </p><p>//Darling Charming, 60 Coercer Splitåaw</p>

[Gyukst]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Azamien-Dermorate wrote:<div>I would also like to have a PbAoE stun line ... something to do when there is lots of small encouters of 2 or 3 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote><p>No.  You dont.  Dont ever wish that.</p><p>I cant count on both hands the number of times I actually can use my PBAOE on my conjuror effectively and safely.  Other than to PL someone on the lowest of green con mobs.  Thats it.  This can never be used in a raid environment in places like Roost, Poets, LT, GoAA or even normal zones like PoF. </p><p>Most high level conjurors dont even have it in their hotbars for fear of accidently hitting it.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[SunT]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gyukster wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Azamien-Dermorate wrote:<div>I would also like to have a PbAoE stun line ... something to do when there is lots of small encouters of 2 or 3 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote><p>No.  You dont.  Dont ever wish that.</p><p>I cant count on both hands the number of times I actually can use my PBAOE on my conjuror effectively and safely.  Other than to PL someone on the lowest of green con mobs.  Thats it.  This can never be used in a raid environment in places like Roost, Poets, LT, GoAA or even normal zones like PoF. </p><p>Most high level conjurors dont even have it in their hotbars for fear of accidently hitting it.</p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>YES we Do.</p><p>Blue AOE are not hard to use if you are smart and think before you cast.  All if my Pally Aoe are Blue and I use them nearly every fight.</p><p>A blue MEZ would be a great way to stop uncontrolled situations so we can bring back order.  There were 2 of these spells in EQ1 and I used them all the time.</p>

[Manyak]

<div></div><div>No? if you ask me we need to have a pbAoE mezz with unlimited targets =)</div>

[Gyukst]

<div>The poster asked for a PBAOE stun, not a mez.  Big difference.</div><div> </div><div>Its fine for a pally to accumulate aggro, typically the healers are on you anyway.  It would be VERY ugly for the caster wrapped in Cottonelle to be ticking off all the extra garbage without the benefit of AC over 10.</div><div> </div><div>All we really need is for our encounter mez to actually mez the encounter, not be limited to 4.  Problem solved, without the need for a PBAOE.</div>

[Gyukst]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div></div><div>No? if you ask me we need to have a pbAoE mezz with unlimited targets =)</div><hr></blockquote><p>So you can aggro even more trash mobs?  Thats just what an encounter going bad needs, more aggro, with hate towards the illusionist.  Guess who dies next.</p><p>Fix the mez limit of 4 on our aoe mez and the problem is solved without the additional trash mobs joining the party.</p>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>There <em><strong>are</strong> </em>times when a PBAOE mez would be very useful - and  these are times where we currently wipe or have to evac, especially since the recast/durations (and target count) on our 'encounter' mez were nerfed.</p><p>Yes you'd have to be careful how you use it, no it's not really a substitute for an encounter mez.  Would be nice to have both.</p><p>PBAOE stun would not be so useful I think.  The duration would not be long enough to let you lock anything down, mostly you would just be postponing the wipe for a couple of seconds, or buying time for an evac.  These days, there's not a lot to distinguish a wipe from an evac anyway.</p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:24 PM</span></p>

[Manyak]

<div><blockquote><hr>Belizarius wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>There <em><strong>are</strong> </em>times when a PBAOE mez would be very useful - and  these are times where we currently wipe or have to evac, especially since the recast/durations (and target count) on our 'encounter' mez were nerfed.</p><p>Yes you'd have to be careful how you use it, no it's not really a substitute for an encounter mez.  Would be nice to have both.</p><p>PBAOE stun would not be so useful I think.  The duration would not be long enough to let you lock anything down, mostly you would just be postponing the wipe for a couple of seconds, or buying time for an evac.  These days, there's not a lot to distinguish a wipe from an evac anyway.</p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>thats exactly my point. i dont mean make our encounter mezz pbAoE....i just mean a whole new line of pbaoe mezz. i mean, u know those times when the adds come at you so quick u cant mezz them fast enough? all it would take would be one cast and BOOM you got em all =)</div><div> </div><div>and dont forget...pbaoes dont ALWAYS draw more aggro...hell if tanks can use them well enough to hold aggro in regular groups i dont see why we wouldnt be able to use a pbaoe mezz safely. i know for a fact that on my guard i use tremor (pbaoe damage) all the time, and never pull any extra aggro with it. just gotta know when and where to use it.</div><div> </div><div>and it would definately help in duels when u dont got a totem of the butterfly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><p>Exactly.</p><p>As things stand, our group CC is kind of pointless a lot of the time, and when you really want CROWD control then it's often inadequate.  It seems that SOE mostly want us to mez stuff that doesn't really need mezzing.</p><p>Say you get a bad pull and there are two powerful group encounters incoming.  Quite probably you won't be able to lock both down before they chew through your group/raid.</p><p>Well you might say, get a better puller.  But then, what are we there for?  That's exactly the situation where our CC should be able to save a wipe.</p><p>If it was a single group pull, chances are we are better off AEing and using group stifles.  Mezzing just prolongs the fight.</p><p>But based on the nerfs we had to our encounter mez I can't see it ever happening.</p>

[Pra]

Some of the time?  Nearly all the time our mezz is useless :/  The only time I mez anymore is when I'm soloing stuff, and even then odds are against me mezzing unless its a group of 4 or more.<div></div>