Did anyone compare the new coercer spell list to ours?

[DavidJay]

<DIV>Havent started a thread in awhile since people like to flame the folks with backbone who speak up but..... I just reviewed both lists of the evil and the good enchanter. Im curious can anyone show me what we really get that they don't? I know everyone thinks our class is perfect with crap mana regen, and our uber 350dps (BTW Ive tried every possible combination being parsed and cannot reach 350dps, someone explain how they do that??? also include your int if you could). I jjust curious really they get some really cool skills that seem more enchanterish, like for instance the tyrannical mind line which owns in raids (BTW I'm in an uber raiding guild obviously perspectives will differ on things depending on what type of game play you have) </DIV> <DIV>I will say we get Illusory allies which is very kewl in a group setting and im positive could be utilized in a raid setting though I just dinged 55 yesterday so have yet to experiment with it. </DIV> <DIV>I may roll a coercer, except i hate being evil heheheh, so please no flames just wondering what makes us as good in a raid setting as a coercer? Is it like the bruiser/monk factor where one of the devs plays a bruiser who obviously seem to be on top, from my perspective. Or am I way off base and are our evil brethren in the same situation we are?</DIV>

[PigLick]

I'd say you're off. I think the only true advantage coercers have over Illusionists is slightly higher power regen. We have slightly differing buffs, but overall they seem fairly balanced with the advantages of one over the other being somewhat situational and/or debatable. The only saving grace of coercers on a raid is TM with it's rare, situational crazy-large hits (of course you guys can get some rare situational crazy large hits with prismatic) which is most likely a bug anyway. Other than that we're basically in the same near-useless boat on raids with Illu's probably having a dps advantage (prismatic, dyanmism) and coercers having a power regen advantage. In groups it basically works out the same. You guys have more stifles, our stuns are about equal, in dps Illus probably have the edge due to prismatic and dyna vs our reactives, which don't proc often enough. You guys also have a reliable, useful pet which is great for soloing and possibly occasionally in groups, while we have the very unpredictable and dangerous charm which is really not that great for soloing and a horrible idea in a group. Illu's also have more mezzes than we do, giving you an edge in crowd control, though it's rarely necessary to have need of more than what a coercer gets, so that's a pretty rare and situational advantage I'd say. Lastly, you get group invis, which we really have no analogue for at all. There are other differences and I'm sure I've missed some things, of course. I'm also sure I'm guilty of some "grass is always greener" syndrome, but I'd say Illu's came out of the revamp better off than coercers did at this point. Not to say that you're perfect or that there aren't any issues or tweaks still needed for you, but I certainly wouldn't say coercers are better, and if I were an Illusionist I definitely wouldn't start over as a coercer. PigLick <div></div>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PigLickJF wrote:<BR>I'd say you're off. I think the only true advantage coercers have over Illusionists is slightly higher power regen. We have slightly differing buffs, but overall they seem fairly balanced with the advantages of one over the other being somewhat situational and/or debatable. The only saving grace of coercers on a raid is TM with it's rare, situational crazy-large hits (of course you guys can get some rare situational crazy large hits with prismatic) which is most likely a bug anyway. Other than that we're basically in the same near-useless boat on raids with Illu's probably having a dps advantage (prismatic, dyanmism) and coercers having a power regen advantage.<BR><BR>In groups it basically works out the same. You guys have more stifles, our stuns are about equal, in dps Illus probably have the edge due to prismatic and dyna vs our reactives, which don't proc often enough.<BR><BR>You guys also have a reliable, useful pet which is great for soloing and possibly occasionally in groups, while we have the very unpredictable and dangerous charm which is really not that great for soloing and a horrible idea in a group.<BR><BR>Illu's also have more mezzes than we do, giving you an edge in crowd control, though it's rarely necessary to have need of more than what a coercer gets, so that's a pretty rare and situational advantage I'd say.<BR><BR>Lastly, you get group invis, which we really have no analogue for at all.<BR><BR>There are other differences and I'm sure I've missed some things, of course. I'm also sure I'm guilty of some "grass is always greener" syndrome, but I'd say Illu's came out of the revamp better off than coercers did at this point. Not to say that you're perfect or that there aren't any issues or tweaks still needed for you, but I certainly wouldn't say coercers are better, and if I were an Illusionist I definitely wouldn't start over as a coercer.<BR><BR>PigLick<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Just wanted to point out 2 things.  Coercers do more than double the power regen that we do.  At least our coercer in the guild has us ticking at 58.  We do 27 per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, the charm is a lot better than the summonable pet.  The pet is useless in a group and raid, it's only useful when solo, and even then he does a mear 40 dps.  You can charm a caster pet and do 200 dps with a good charm (yes, this is what our coercer does.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I prefer the caster proc as well, although your dps buff is better than our haste buff.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:05 PM</span>

[Dufre]

<DIV>I think both classes got a descent bump.  I like that TM spell.</DIV> <DIV>The illusory allies are generally going to cause a raid wipe.  They steal the aggro from the MT then do a mem wipe.  They are good for groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont have the savante spell but I may get it now that adept 1 drops.  This spell can also be useful on raids.  In normal groups I rarely run out of mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a little disappointed in the nerf to stifles.  This was one of the areas that they improved us now they have taken that away.  If you are having trouble with DPS I would have to see what spells you are casting.  Color shower is the highest dps spell we get. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have to shoot for the int cap to get maximum damage.  Use potions, food, rings, hex doll.</DIV> <DIV>If you arent at max int then the dps will be lower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dufrest</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://av.dvrdns.org" target=_blank>http://av.dvrdns.org</A></DIV>

[Jaxidi]

<DIV>Just FYI, people who are getting 350+dps on a regular basis have many ad3's and masters.  Against a single ^^^ I can pull 350ish dps but almost all of my main damage spells are master 1/2 except for a couple adept 3's.  If I was only working with adept 1's then I'm betting I'd be around 275dps.  Upgrades make a pretty big difference.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Jax</DIV>

[Dainger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PigLickJF wrote:<BR><BR>Lastly, you get group invis, which we really have no analogue for at all.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>  Do coercers still have their hate generation buff? and their extra resistance debuff?</P> <P>  I always thought either of those 2 abilities as something that could counterbalance illu groupinvis.  I'm not saying that either is more beneficial, but more or less situational benefits that the opposite subclass doesn't have.</P> <P>  Besides that your summary looks fairly accurate in my eyes, though i have no idea about whether or not illu dps is greater than coercer dps.  Though i can say i'm satisfied w/ my DPS capabilities.<BR></P>

[Barobra]

<div></div><span><blockquote><div>Just wanted to point out 2 things.  Coercers do more than double the power regen that we do.  At least our coercer in the guild has us ticking at 58.  We do 27 per tick.</div> <div> </div> <div>Also, the charm is a lot better than the summonable pet.  The pet is useless in a group and raid, it's only useful when solo, and even then he does a mear 40 dps.  You can charm a caster pet and do 200 dps with a good charm (yes, this is what our coercer does.)</div> <div> </div> <div>I prefer the caster proc as well, although your dps buff is better than our haste buff.</div><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class="date_text">10-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:05 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span>Really 58 a tick? My master insight does 31..... Thats a big difference. <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 AM</span>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just wanted to point out 2 things.  Coercers do more than double the power regen that we do.  At least our coercer in the guild has us ticking at 58.  We do 27 per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, the charm is a lot better than the summonable pet.  The pet is useless in a group and raid, it's only useful when solo, and even then he does a mear 40 dps.  You can charm a caster pet and do 200 dps with a good charm (yes, this is what our coercer does.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I prefer the caster proc as well, although your dps buff is better than our haste buff.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Padien on <SPAN class=date_text>10-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:05 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN>Really 58 a tick? My master insight does 31..... Thats a big difference. <SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN><BR> <P>Message Edited by Barobrain on <SPAN class=date_text>10-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:43 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ya, he stacks on 2 or 3 regen spells and together are doing near 60 a tick.<BR>

[PigLick]

<span><blockquote><hr>Padien wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Barobrain wrote: <div></div><span> <blockquote> <div>Just wanted to point out 2 things.  Coercers do more than double the power regen that we do.  At least our coercer in the guild has us ticking at 58.  We do 27 per tick.</div> <div> </div> <div>Also, the charm is a lot better than the summonable pet.  The pet is useless in a group and raid, it's only useful when solo, and even then he does a mear 40 dps.  You can charm a caster pet and do 200 dps with a good charm (yes, this is what our coercer does.)</div> <div> </div> <div>I prefer the caster proc as well, although your dps buff is better than our haste buff.</div> <p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class="date_text">10-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:05 PM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote></span>Really 58 a tick? My master insight does 31..... Thats a big difference. <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Barobrain on <span class="date_text">10-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:43 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Ya, he stacks on 2 or 3 regen spells and together are doing near 60 a tick. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Clarity (31) and Mind's Eye (around 11 I think) are true buffs we can keep up all the time, so that's 42 we can do. Our other is a hostile debuff/group regen, don't recall how much it gives, but I believe Illu's have an analogous spell, though I also don't know how the regens/recast/durations compare on them. So our main does about 4/tick more, plus the 11/tick from Mind's Eye. As for charm being better, I still say that's debatable. First off, the risk is something that can't be ignored, nor the fact that you have to have something to charm. Your pet may only be 40 dps, but that's a guaranteed, always there 40 dps. For charm, you have to find something to charm (usually not a problem, but not always something with such good dps), and then it can break at any moment. When you factor in time spent finding something to charm, casting/recasting charms, and managing breaks, I bet we don't come out ahead in dps even if we do find a good caster pet that can do high burst dps. Not to mention that most groups are fighting mobs which are powerful enough to make a break potentially pretty dangerous not only for us, but the entire group. I use charm solo all the time, but I'm fighting blue-low yellow down- or no-arrow mobs, so a break is usually pretty manageable (though still dangerous). In groups, I'm usually fighting high yellow-orange ^^ or ^^^, so a break (which occur frequently) are a much bugger danger. I don't think charm is as horrible as a lot of coercers on the boards do, but it definitely needs to be tweaked, and at this point I still believe the Illu pet is more useful and desirable in basically any situation. As to the aggro generator, yah, we do still get that, forgot to mention it (told ya I'd forget some stuff <span>:smileywink:</span>- I solo a lot so don't get a chance to use it often, hehe). Definitely not analgous to group invis, but it is something we get that Illu's don't. As for resist buffs, I don't think we get any extras, but we do get a pretty large power buff that Illu's don't get. We have only one INT buff (also buffs AGI) and no WIS buffs though, that's why I said our buffs seem relatively balanced but one or the other may be more advantageous depending on the situation. PigLick</span><div></div>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PigLickJF wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR><BR>As for charm being better, I still say that's debatable. First off, the risk is something that can't be ignored, nor the fact that you have to have something to charm. Your pet may only be 40 dps, but that's a guaranteed, always there 40 dps. For charm, you have to find something to charm (usually not a problem, but not always something with such good dps), and then it can break at any moment. When you factor in time spent finding something to charm, casting/recasting charms, and managing breaks, I bet we don't come out ahead in dps even if we do find a good caster pet that can do high burst dps. Not to mention that most groups are fighting mobs which are powerful enough to make a break potentially pretty dangerous not only for us, but the entire group. I use charm solo all the time, but I'm fighting blue-low yellow down- or no-arrow mobs, so a break is usually pretty manageable (though still dangerous). In groups, I'm usually fighting high yellow-orange ^^ or ^^^, so a break (which occur frequently) are a much bugger danger. I don't think charm is as horrible as a lot of coercers on the boards do, but it definitely needs to be tweaked, and at this point I still believe the Illu pet is more useful and desirable in basically any situation.<BR><BR>PigLick<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'd just like to point out that in a group, any illusionist who is using his pet is losing DPS.  The buffs we put on the group far out way the little benefet that little pet does.  Trying to tell us that charm is too risky to use in a group, which makes the summoned pet better is pointless as neither are useful in a group.  I gain as much DPS from one dynamism or celerity as I do from my pet and I can put those spells on 3 people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloing is the only useful purpose for either pet version, and should really only be compared to that extent.</DIV>

[MillsFairchild]

<span><blockquote><hr>Padien wrote:<div> I'd just like to point out that in a group, any illusionist who is using his pet is losing DPS.  The buffs we put on the group far out way the little benefet that little pet does.  Trying to tell us that charm is too risky to use in a group, which makes the summoned pet better is pointless as neither are useful in a group.  I gain as much DPS from one dynamism or celerity as I do from my pet and I can put those spells on 3 people.</div> <div> </div> <div>Soloing is the only useful purpose for either pet version, and should really only be compared to that extent.</div><hr></blockquote>I think that's highly dependent on the size/makeup of the group and what you're fighting.</span><div></div>

[Padi]

<DIV>From my experience, the pet gives me no more than a single dynamism or celerity for DPS.  If you are in a group, you have a person to buff, at which point I find it hard to believe even that 1 buff isn't upping DPS as much as the pet.  From my experience, he has 2 uses: Pulling a difficult pull, and getting prismatic havoc off while soloing (unfortunately he normally doesn't last more than 15 seconds in a fight before he nearly dead, so he doesn't fight a lot even when solo).</DIV>

[Dainger]

<P>  Once you get Illusory Allies your pet can tank ^^^'s for a prolonged period of time if the illusionist in question protects him properly.</P> <UL> <LI>From Max Casting Range</LI> <UL> <LI>Root & Unload all DoT's</LI> <LI>Command Pet to Attack Target</LI> <UL> <LI>Immediately after commanding pet to attack tap 'F1' two times quickly (this targets your doppelganger)</LI></UL> <LI>Cast Prismatic Havoc (by the time it lands on the pet he should have crossed about half the distance from you to your target)</LI> <LI>Cast Sap Will (11 second stun)</LI> <UL> <LI>Because the pet casts frequently, you have enough time to buff him w/ prismatic and stun the target w/ out the pet taking damage yet (occasionally he'll take one hit before the stun lands)</LI></UL> <LI>Cast Construct</LI> <UL> <LI>Root should be wearing off;  though during this time it's not important to re-root....</LI></UL> <LI>re-apply all DoT's, throw in a nuke or 2.</LI> <LI>As Sap Will enters the end of it's duration, attempt to time casting illusory allies (15 Second Distraction) so that the spell goes off as soon as the stun wears off.</LI> <UL> <LI>Your pet and construct now have had 11 seconds to whack on the target w/ no fear of retalliation....and are granted 15 more seconds of no damage done to them</LI></UL> <LI>Rebuff Prismatic Havoc, cycle some DoT's and nukes</LI> <LI>Fortunately Right as illu allies is about to drop if timed correctly Sap Will should be available to cast again soon.</LI> <UL> <LI>Use our 4 second encounter stun as a buffer between casting the longer duration stuns (Sap will, illusory allies)</LI></UL> <LI>As the second cast of Sap Will is dropping, either the target should be dead or the illusionist should call his doppelganger back to himself.</LI></UL> <LI>If timed correctly an illusionist can stun a single target encounter for 37 seconds, + a few more seconds if casting the 4 sec encounter stun inbetween.</LI> <UL> <LI>Though this is only possible when illusory allies is available to cast (i.e. 3 minutes)</LI></UL></UL> <P> </P>

[Barobra]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dainger wrote:<div></div> <p>  Once you get Illusory Allies your pet can tank ^^^'s for a prolonged period of time if the illusionist in question protects him properly.</p> <ul> <li>From Max Casting Range</li> <ul> <li>Root & Unload all DoT's</li> <li>Command Pet to Attack Target</li> <ul> <li>Immediately after commanding pet to attack tap 'F1' two times quickly (this targets your doppelganger)</li></ul> <li>Cast Prismatic Havoc (by the time it lands on the pet he should have crossed about half the distance from you to your target)</li> <li>Cast Sap Will (11 second stun)</li> <ul> <li>Because the pet casts frequently, you have enough time to buff him w/ prismatic and stun the target w/ out the pet taking damage yet (occasionally he'll take one hit before the stun lands)</li></ul> <li>Cast Construct</li> <ul> <li>Root should be wearing off;  though during this time it's not important to re-root....</li></ul> <li>re-apply all DoT's, throw in a nuke or 2.</li> <li>As Sap Will enters the end of it's duration, attempt to time casting illusory allies (15 Second Distraction) so that the spell goes off as soon as the stun wears off.</li> <ul> <li>Your pet and construct now have had 11 seconds to whack on the target w/ no fear of retalliation....and are granted 15 more seconds of no damage done to them</li></ul> <li>Rebuff Prismatic Havoc, cycle some DoT's and nukes</li> <li>Fortunately Right as illu allies is about to drop if timed correctly Sap Will should be available to cast again soon.</li> <ul> <li>Use our 4 second encounter stun as a buffer between casting the longer duration stuns (Sap will, illusory allies)</li></ul> <li>As the second cast of Sap Will is dropping, either the target should be dead or the illusionist should call his doppelganger back to himself.</li></ul> <li>If timed correctly an illusionist can stun a single target encounter for 37 seconds, + a few more seconds if casting the 4 sec encounter stun inbetween.</li> <ul> <li>Though this is only possible when illusory allies is available to cast (i.e. 3 minutes)</li></ul></ul> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Nice strat. I cant wait to try that at 55.</span><div></div>

[PigLick]

<span><blockquote><hr>Padien wrote: <div>I'd just like to point out that in a group, any illusionist who is using his pet is losing DPS.  The buffs we put on the group far out way the little benefet that little pet does.  Trying to tell us that charm is too risky to use in a group, which makes the summoned pet better is pointless as neither are useful in a group.  I gain as much DPS from one dynamism or celerity as I do from my pet and I can put those spells on 3 people.</div> <div> </div> <div>Soloing is the only useful purpose for either pet version, and should really only be compared to that extent.</div><hr></blockquote>Actually I thought I'd men tioned that, but it must have been in a block of text I deleted, and I didn't put it back in, though I did sort of refer to it in my initial post. I do agree with you in general (though like MIlls said, I think there is some situational dependence to take into consideration). However, I was responding to someon who was comparing Illu pets to charms in a group. Whether or not that's the best idea, it was what was brought up and what I was responding to. Not to mention that basically everything I said about charm applies to solo as well as groups which, as you said, is the more reasonable situation in which to compare the two. PigLick</span><div></div>

[Padi]

<DIV>A little more info on the power regen.  Both have the same base power regen.  Coercers have an extra power regen that stacks as well as a reactive buff that procs a power regen, which tanks seem to love.</DIV>

[PigLick]

<span><blockquote><hr>Padien wrote:<div></div> <div>A little more info on the power regen.  Both have the same base power regen.  Coercers have an extra power regen that stacks as well as a reactive buff that procs a power regen, which tanks seem to love.</div><hr></blockquote>Right, the extra one we get that stacks is Mind's Eye at 48, with 11 (I believe that's Master I, not sure) per tick. That other spell you describe sounds like Mana Cloak, which is a level 35 enchanter spell and therefore also available to illusionists. I don't know if the power regen of the other lines that both classes get (Clarity/Insight and Devouring Thoughts/Devitalizing Stare) are exactly the same, but if not they're pretty close. PigLick </span><div></div>

[Slay Min]

<DIV>The power proc spell you are reffering to is Mana Cloak and we get it too.  Just have your local sage make you an app IV or adept 3.  For 3 minutes out of 15 you can fill a main tank to full power if he has 2+ things beating on him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for DPS, prismatic strife and dynamism are you main dps.  Cast prismatic as the MT is pulling. Then cast all of your fast casting stuff for dynamism procs. Be sure to recast prismatic whenever it is up. 500+ dps is usuall and 700+ dps is seen when I am grouped with a trouby for double proc buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't bother with haste, persona, or our resist buff (if it is not needed).  Just get Dynamism up on the dps classes/MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hermit</DIV>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Slay Minds wrote:<BR> <DIV>The power proc spell you are reffering to is Mana Cloak and we get it too.  Just have your local sage make you an app IV or adept 3.  For 3 minutes out of 15 you can fill a main tank to full power if he has 2+ things beating on him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for DPS, prismatic strife and dynamism are you main dps.  Cast prismatic as the MT is pulling. Then cast all of your fast casting stuff for dynamism procs. Be sure to recast prismatic whenever it is up. 500+ dps is usuall and 700+ dps is seen when I am grouped with a trouby for double proc buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't bother with haste, persona, or our resist buff (if it is not needed).  Just get Dynamism up on the dps classes/MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hermit</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is your dynamism working on the tank?  The spell description says it will only work on hostile "spells". <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and thanks for the tip on the Mana cloak.  We used to have a mana cloak as an illusionist spell, although it was pretty lame then</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>10-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 PM</span>