The long slow slide of enchanters

[ClaudiustheG]

<DIV>I'm just too tired to care much any more, and with Civilization IV coming out in November I probably won't be playing this game much anyway.  But when you look at where we were 1 week before the combat revamp went live, and where we are now, it's just sad.  Just little bits, here and there, they chipped away at our class, until we are more or less almost back to the combat revamp.  The only thing we have left is the personae (and thank god for it, because the class was unsoloable before), and I mean lets face it, it's a pet.  So when it's all said and done, after all the sound and fury, we are a low DPS pet class with a class-defining ability (mez) that is next to useless in the new game design.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to hand it to the developers, they beat me.  I saw how important enchanters were in EQ1, and I wanted to be that important.  I knew they were trying to re-engineer the game so that mez wouldn't matter, but I didn't think they would be able to do it.  I thought as long as there were groups of mobs, there would always be a need for enchanters.  I never foresaw the mechanic whereby a group of 5 mobs hits EXACTLY as hard as a single mob, so that from a healing standpoint there is no disadvantage to having all five mobs in a group pounding on the tank at once.  And I stupidly didn't predict group taunts, so that one tank can hold aggro from as many mobs as he needs.  So game over, the developers win.  I'm lucky I'm in a nice guild of good people who like having me around, so they take me along with them even though I don't contribute a [expletive ninja'd by Raijinn] thing they need.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just tired, and feeling a little beat down right now.  I was kind of looking foreward to stiffling a raid mob, and impressing everyone.  Don't I feel like a noob.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Claudius</DIV>

[Jaxidi]

<DIV>I and many others love the new version of our class.  As far as I'm aware, here are the areas where we are not as good as we were before:</DIV> <OL> <LI>Lower power regen</LI> <LI>Lower Int buffs</LI> <LI>No 13-agi debuff</LI> <LI>Lower resistance buffs</LI> <LI>Cannot raid-buff power regen</LI> <LI>Concentration issues</LI></OL> <P>My responses to each:</P> <OL> <LI>Everything else in the game regarding power was revamped and I'm not going to argue the entire revamp here.  The only part I see where this really hurts us is now bards regen power similarly to as good as we do (sometimes better, sometimes worse, depending on your argument).  I'm disappointed that a bard can power regen an entire group but our power regen stacks with theirs were 2 bards cannot stack power regen.  For this reason, we are definitely not replaced by bards and it's an ignorant argument to say so.  As for not being able to buff for the cap in-combat power regen, well suck it up - it was a balance change and everybody else in the game was complaining about power regen due to the lack of enchanter #'s in the game.</LI> <LI>You cannot compare int now to int before.  It just has a totally new meaning.  It's like comparing apples to guitars - you just can't do it.  Personally, I have no problem hitting my int cap.  With that being the case, this argument for us being [Removed for Content] is moot in my opinion.</LI> <LI>I'll survive, next...</LI> <LI>They've been nerfing resistances all over the place but they've also added wisdom affecting resistances.  So personally I think the two kinda cancel out.</LI> <LI>YAY!  This was my MOST FAVORITE change!  Sure, I'm less powerful but I can finally have fun on a raid!  Going through some of the multi-hour raid zones SUCKED [expletive ninja'd by Raijinn] before and I'd HATE doing those even if they had the best chance at master drops.  It basically meant a 4+ hour raid where 85% of my time was spent casting breeze and haste.  Plus we now have a use for multiple enchanters in a raid.  Before chanters were getting bumped out of raids for other useful classes since a single chanter could buff an entire raid.  This was SUCH a nice change.</LI> <LI>Now you have to use some strategy - good change imo!</LI></OL> <P>Now ways we've improved:</P> <OL> <LI>CC (mez) - OMG we rock at this!</LI> <LI>DPS - Holy cow, I can actually contribue to group dps when needed and in my spare time!</LI> <LI>Pet - Yeah, does wonders when soloing!  For group purposes, much less useful but that's fine by me.</LI> <LI>Stifles - WOW we're much better than before!</LI> <LI>Root - it's useful now!</LI> <LI>Debuffs - I have Dismay at master and it makes a huge difference against ^^^ mobs when grinding!  Used to be relatively trivial from parses but now it makes a big difference in some situations.  No clue about raid situations though.</LI> <LI>WE ARE FUN TO PLAY!  We are no longer buff bots, we now can contribue in a very wide variety and are very good at all parts.</LI></OL> <P>Have fun bashing SOE to your Civ 4 friends (seemed your post's intent was to do nothing other than bash SOE which was pretty assish of you imo).</P> <P>-Jax</P>

[Sug]

I think it depends on the role of the person playing the Illusionist.   The original poster might be more concerned on how he performs on a raid, maybe he doesnt care about exp groups.  I think it all depends on what the person considers his or her goals.   If you want to do nifty little quests and meet your buddies up for a round of gaining a level, then fine, we are good for that.  On a raid.... I'll hold judgement until I get to level 58 and see how spell shield works.    That could possibly be our saving grace.

[Padi]

<DIV>I think the people complaining are those who liked being nearly indispinsable.  They want to be the person the raid "requires" to succeed.  If that's what you want, we ave not as powerful as before.  However, we are still quite useful to a raid, and are a hell of a lot more fun to play.  In my opinion, we improved in all aspects of the game (raid, group and solo), but I don't feel a need to be indispinsible.  All I need is to be useful, and that we are and we are a lot more fun to play.</DIV>

[Dainger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ClaudiustheGod wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to hand it to the developers, they beat me.  I saw how important enchanters were in EQ1, and I wanted to be that important.  I knew they were trying to re-engineer the game so that mez wouldn't matter, but I didn't think they would be able to do it.  I thought as long as there were groups of mobs, there would always be a need for enchanters.  I never foresaw the mechanic whereby <FONT color=#ccff00>a group of 5 mobs hits EXACTLY as hard as a single mob</FONT>, so that from a healing standpoint there is no disadvantage to having all five mobs in a group pounding on the tank at once.  And I stupidly didn't predict group taunts, so that one tank can hold aggro from as many mobs as he needs.  So game over, the developers win.  I'm lucky I'm in a nice guild of good people who like having me around, so they take me along with them even though I don't contribute a [expletive ninja'd by Raijinn] thing they need.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> I think an important point has been missed here.</P> <P> Linked encounters imo is a very good thing for this game, i love the concept.  Essentially it gives the eq2 dev's another way to differentiate classes;  Warlocks vs. Wizards, ect...  I like how there are essentially 2 kinds of encounters dealt w/ in EQ2 (single target and multi-target), it allows for further subclass diversity and specialization.  I also believe that this concept has no effect whatsoever on our current mezzing capabilities.</P> <P> The real issue that has always existed w/ enchanter's CC in EQ2 has been social aggro (or the lack there of).  When tanks are able to pull encounters (single or multi-target) directly through other encounters and have no risk of the extra encounter adding, there's a lack of CC neccesity inheritly built into the game.  This has been what was most frustrating for me as an illusionist throughout my leveling experience pre-combat revamp.</P> <P> Post revamp is a different story imo.  Social aggro seems to be much more alive and well depending on the adventuring area in question,  though social aggro is still not as "social" as it was in eq1 i find that it does exist in DoF more frequently than not.  I've found mezzing to be much more useful post-revamp than it ever was pre-revamp.</P> <P>  If you ask me our encounter mezz is currently overpowered in one respect.  I'd suggest nerfing our encounter mezz returning it to the state of completely breaking on every MoB within an encounter if one MoB in the encounter takes damage.  The duration, cast time, and recast time of this spell line is beautiful.  I want to be able to mezz any of eq2's encounters w/ efficiency not just single target encounters as we were stuck doing pre-revamp.  As previously stated in eq2 a linked encounter of 5 mobs will have approximately the same dps and hp's as a single target encounter of the same level.  If we could mezz all of that dps w/ one cast in one version of eq2's encounters we should be able to do that as well w/ the multi-mob encounters.  This is exactly where our spells have placed us now...able to mezz any encounter we come across w/ the same efficiency.</P> <P>    We all know how our current encounter mezz allows us to handle multi target encounters now and i don't believe it was a concious design decision but more or less an unintended benefit from previous changes.  I think that if our encounter mezz would break when any mob in the targetted encounter recieved damage it would be much more balanced, and reflect more accurately the use of our single target mezz.  This isn't to say that making this change would prevent the same tactic from being used....it would just require a little more effort, concentration, power, and risk.  (AE mezz to begin than followed by single target mezzing every mob in the encounter (as a side note, dynamism would have to be turned off if this were the case, than re-applied once all the single target mezzes were distributed for fear of breaking the ae mezz via a dynamism proc while single mezzing the mob's))  So we'd still have the possibility of using encounter mezz how we will, it'd just be less rewarding than it currently is.</P> <P> Anyways i respect everyone's own right to their opinion, but frankly if you're unsatisfied w/ illusionist's as they are currently than i doubt you'll ever be satisfied w/ illusionist's throughout the rest of EQ2's career.  Right now we are a most impressive class and i'm sure that feeling will be confirmed in the next few months as we watch hundreds of illu alt's sprout up throughout the playerbase.</P>

[Malle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ClaudiustheGod wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm just too tired to care much any more, and with Civilization IV coming out in November I probably won't be playing this game much anyway.  But when you look at where we were 1 week before the combat revamp went live, and where we are now, it's just sad.  Just little bits, here and there, they chipped away at our class, until we are more or less almost back to the combat revamp.  The only thing we have left is the personae (and thank god for it, because the class was unsoloable before), and I mean lets face it, it's a pet.  So when it's all said and done, after all the sound and fury, we are a low DPS pet class with a class-defining ability (mez) that is next to useless in the new game design.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to hand it to the developers, they beat me.  I saw how important enchanters were in EQ1, and I wanted to be that important.  I knew they were trying to re-engineer the game so that mez wouldn't matter, but I didn't think they would be able to do it.  I thought as long as there were groups of mobs, there would always be a need for enchanters.  I never foresaw the mechanic whereby a group of 5 mobs hits EXACTLY as hard as a single mob, so that from a healing standpoint there is no disadvantage to having all five mobs in a group pounding on the tank at once.  And I stupidly didn't predict group taunts, so that one tank can hold aggro from as many mobs as he needs.  So game over, the developers win.  I'm lucky I'm in a nice guild of good people who like having me around, so they take me along with them even though I don't contribute a [expletive ninja'd by Raijinn] thing they need.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just tired, and feeling a little beat down right now.  I was kind of looking foreward to stiffling a raid mob, and impressing everyone.  Don't I feel like a noob.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Claudius</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I must admit to being surprised at your post Claudius. In the past you've posted with very accurate observations and insights, but I can't class this as one of them. Whereas I think the title is probably correct in that we *are* going to be chipped away a little, first Sifle on Epics, then maybe our root will be 'adjusted', then perhaps our Spell timers, then something else, etc etc, the comments about linked encounters are way off beam imo. As Dainger states, (good to see you back Dainger :smileywink: ) the value of mezz is in most games is in controlling social aggro or adding mobs, and there are certainly an increase in the number of mobs that are social in DoF. Sandcrawler goblins, Cyclops and Undead in Living tombs just off the top of my head are the ones that spring to mind. I've had to mezz a few times while hunting in groups, and it's nice to get back into the swing of CC again. </P> <P>I should have a good nights sleep and see how you feel in the morning :smileywink: , we certainly cant be said to contribute nothing a guild needs, or to be a 'low DPS class' , at least 50+. I consistently out DPS all the classes I should, and sometimes the classes I shouldn't. Did you just have a really bad nights playing? :smileysurprised:</P>

[ClaudiustheG]

<P>Well Sarai, you hit the nail right on the head.  I had a very tough week at work, and I was really overtired when I posted last night (there is a moral there).  After a good night's sleep I feel much better about things.</P> <P>I have been having a lot more fun playing my illusionist - the fact is that before the revamp I had basically dropped him in favor of a variety of alts, and after the revamp I haven't felt like touching any of my alts.  Of course there are things I would like to change - I was looking forward to stiffling raid mobs, for example - but overall I'm so much happier with the class that I shouldn't be complaining.</P> <DIV>Thank you all for once again reminding me of why I have been happily playing my illusionist lately <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Claudius</DIV>

[KornRollKid]

<DIV>Personally im having a great time as an illusionist ,could it be better sure.</DIV> <DIV>One thing ive done that surprised me was i dont even use the pet anymore actually two weeks ago was last time i casted it, i primarily just root and mobs i use my group mez at master2 its great and knock em down one by one fast  hell no but its very effective and with my other mezzes adds arent a worry either.</DIV>

[Jaxidi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ClaudiustheGod wrote:<BR> <P>Well Sarai, you hit the nail right on the head.  I had a very tough week at work, and I was really overtired when I posted last night (there is a moral there).  After a good night's sleep I feel much better about things.</P> <P>I have been having a lot more fun playing my illusionist - the fact is that before the revamp I had basically dropped him in favor of a variety of alts, and after the revamp I haven't felt like touching any of my alts.  Of course there are things I would like to change - I was looking forward to stiffling raid mobs, for example - but overall I'm so much happier with the class that I shouldn't be complaining.</P> <DIV>Thank you all for once again reminding me of why I have been happily playing my illusionist lately <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Claudius</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I was in the exact same boat.  Pre-revamp my illu had been retired except for raiding, quests, and helping people out.  I was able to get several high 30's alts in the mean time.  Now, I haven't even logged 2 of those high 30's alts in post-revamp because I enjoy my illu.  I still need to wait and see what raiding is like at 60 - we'll see...</DIV>

[Tendonit]

In a group we are still a VERY powerfull and versatile class. Solo we are a bit slow but very potent as well. Now, the raid situation worries me a lot. Power regen abilities we have are a lot weaker now, I have still not mastered when to use Savante and I don't like the way they made the spell when it went live. Power drain is useless in all situations, raid or not. Our stifle ability was something to look forward to, but stifles do not work on epics anymore. So all we have now is very limited power regen, some DPS, and a debuff that I am not even sure makes a difference. Not much DPS too, since I usually have noone in group to cast prismatic strife, only healers. But you can't have everything, can you.