Our Main Job

[Manyak]

<DIV>i think i might be missing something here......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>troubs get a better mana regen than breeze</DIV> <DIV>troubs get better buffs for casters than illus</DIV> <DIV>mezzes are useless in 90% of raids</DIV> <DIV>our DPS sux compared to any1 else (including guardians.....tested this)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so what the hell is our new job? breeze used to kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].....im the only ill on the server with a master insight, and happen to also have master devitalizing stare....if u ask me were just kinda....there</DIV>

[Padi]

<P>Master II Brias (at level 50 anyways) is the same as Adept 3 insight.  Master 1 insight if 4 better than brias.  We also have devitalizing stare that will suck power from an encounter to the group.</P> <P>We also have some good damage buffs, our mez is a 1.5 second spell and we have 2 mez's, compared to a troubadors 4 second cast time and 10 second recast.  We also can group mez.</P> <P>Lastly, our damage output is much higher than a troubadors most the time.</P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>we cant mezz epics....we cant stun epics....we cant even root epics. so were just a conjuror with mana regen.....</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>at least when it comes to raids that is</DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>On a raid, we can stifle (although it doesn't stop spells completely, it lowers the abilities), we have dismay which lowers there attack abilities.  We also have higher DPS.  We also may be mez'ing some of the adds of a raid, but we'll see.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>we could always debuff and stifle......its nothing new. just cuz dismay has been increased from 8 to 36 doesnt mean its more effective.......higher lvl mobs are gonna be breaking through the tanks armor as if its nothing anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edited cuz i forgot to say this.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far as the DPS goes....having 24 people breezed at 60pts per tick gives a better DPS rating for the raid overall since evry1 can use more attacks than an extra 200 dps on one toon....</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 PM</span>

[Padi]

<DIV>So what's your complaint?  We haven't chanced except for 2 things.  Our damage buffs are better, and power regen is group only.  Not as effective as before, but still invaluable.  The difference being, now we can actually use those other abilities because we aren't spending all our time casting breeze.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>weve chagned for alot more than 2 things.... how bout a nice list</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wis buffs reduced from a total of about 130 to about 40. about 50 wis used to be buffed cross raid</DIV> <DIV>int buffs increased in goup by about 100 total, but lost 50 int cross raid</DIV> <DIV>no more agi buff in group. yeh, 11 agi was near useless, but it helped when put in the MT group for resists</DIV> <DIV>no more debuffing agi on mob (adept 2 version of tormenting visions).....at lvl 50 this spell used to have every other aspect equal to lobotomize adept 1, but with added agi debuff</DIV> <DIV>spells all have higher mana usage, yet even before revamp with the better breeze we were able to burn mana out quickly. and the new consume ego doesnt help (dropped from 150pts to 30 pts at master 1)</DIV> <DIV>magic/mental/divine resist no longer goes cross raid</DIV> <DIV>dismay increased greatly, but since plate tanks cant take yellow cons anyway, and monks/bruisers have extremely high avoidance it has about the same effect as it did before</DIV> <DIV>devitalizing stare made more powerful (22 per tick as oppsed to 12), but then again, the old 60+12 (72) is still better than the new 31+22 (53)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and even though we had to cast lots of breezes.....there was still enough time between breeezes to cast everything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>either way my point is.........what puts our class aside from all others in a raid? tanks are there to tank.....wizzies are there to do heat/cold DPS....warlocks for poison AoE....other classes there for debuffing against those so the classes that hit with those types of damage even more effective.....healers there to buff and heal.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and with 95% of raids where CC is ineffective, what exactly is our job that no1 else can do better?</DIV>

[Aeeri]

<DIV>Our new job is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Dynamism on casters. Can't say enough about this spell.</DIV> <DIV>2. Prismatic Strife on your main autoattack dps group member. The master II dmg is pretty nice and relatively fast recast.</DIV> <DIV>3. Stifles/stun. We have 3-4 including aoe ones that I use on solo mobs as well.</DIV> <DIV>4. Breeze</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In groups, the only buffs i cast are breeze and magi's shielding. the other 4 slots go to dynamism. Prismatic strife is best on a zerker/bruiser/monk etc but works good on guardians as well. not so good if your mt is a pally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With all the above on, I am consistently in the top dmg in the group.</DIV>

[MillsFairchild]

I wish I only had to say this once, but I guess I have to keep saying it again and again... Our DPS does not suck.  If an Illusionist's goal is DPS, you can put out a <i>very </i>respectable amount.  If you're having trouble with that, it's you... not our abilities. <div></div>

[Anu'hu]

<P>As far as the illusionist Vs Troubador issue goes, Troubadors are definately superior in the buffing for caster departement. One main reason is because the Troubador buffs are groupwide, unlike our buffs which take 1 consentration slot for each person, thats a VERY big deal.  Troubadors also get a better selection of group buffs to choice for their group. For example, Troubadors get buffs that can increase Sta and Agi for melee, groupwide haste, buffs that increase disruption, ministration,and ordination. They also get powerpool buffs, a GROUPWIDE dynamism type spell, a mana regen spell that is better then ours at lvl 55, plus they get a buff thats placed on the group that reduces aggro of the casters by 48%. Now you tell me if Troubador buffs and illusionist buffs are balanced right, I think not. This really needs to be looked at because there is NO need to have an illusionist in group, just pick up a Troubador. Oh and they also get a Spell reflection spell like we do. As far as damage goes we do not need an increase of it, we do just fine. I picked up Prismatic Havoc Master I and lets just say its wonderful. At 438 int Prismatic Havoc master I hits for 627-767. I think the Prismatic spell line needs to be changed a group or raid friend, because what if you dont have any melee in your group? thats all for now</P> <P>Zimm The'Puppetmaster - 60th illusionist of Antonia Bayle</P> <P>Halcyon Affinity</P>

[Belizarius]

<P>I think this whole line of discussion is a red herring.</P> <P>Bard + bard does not stack.</P> <P>Chanter + chanter does not stack.</P> <P>But Bard + chanter stacks very nicely.</P> <P>Troubs do have a lot of nice group buffs, but guess what?  They still have concentration slot issues just as we do.</P> <P>Some of the best groups I have are when we have me and a Troub in group.  Why the fixation on either/or?  In fact, sometimes we need both just to keep from going OOP on the longer fights.</P> <P>I do think that any of our single target buffs which requires concentration, should at least be raid-or-group friend.</P> <P>Noone to cast prismatic strife on?   Well at present time, you get the aggro it generates anyway (just like a regular nuke), so it matters little whether you cast it on a fighter, or on a scout, it even works fine on pets.   The only situation I can see would be a whole group of sorcerors.   Your guild must be very sorceror heavy?</P> <P>You do know that our melee attack skills are now capped at the same level as melee classes (5/level) instead of being borked (used to be 3/level)?  So you can even get your melee skills up and cast it on yourself.</P>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belizarius wrote:<BR> <P>I think this whole line of discussion is a red herring.</P> <P>Bard + bard does not stack.</P> <P>Chanter + chanter does not stack.</P> <P>But Bard + chanter stacks very nicely.</P> <P>Troubs do have a lot of nice group buffs, but guess what?  They still have concentration slot issues just as we do.</P> <P>Some of the best groups I have are when we have me and a Troub in group.  <FONT color=#ccff00>Why the fixation on either/or?</FONT>  In fact, sometimes we need both just to keep from going OOP on the longer fights.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Its not about a fixation on either / or.</DIV> <DIV>Its about the question if there is balance between the "utility scout" and the "utility mage".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can compare it to the question of wizard and warlock dps. tell a wizard it doesnt matter if he is only half as efficient than a warlock cause both classes stack anyways...</DIV> <DIV>get the point?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>power regen and stackability of power regen is my smallest concern when looking at chanter and bards. that one bard can buff as efficient and better than 2 illusionists together is what seems wrong to me. sure bards are more of a buffing class while enchanter are more about CC, but the discrepancy seems too high. </DIV> <DIV>bards buffing benefit IMO mostly should be that they can chose from more options (which they can), not that their compareable buffs are that much better by itself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>take bard haste versus chanter haste for example, this seems good balanced to me. they get the group version with about 18% at adept 1, we get the single target version with 34% or so. for bard that means as soon as they have 2 melee in group their buff will equal to ours (2x18%). if there are more melee in group bards will be better off if both classes only use one con slot for haste, but the chanter could decide to use a second con slot and sacrifice some other buff instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>try the same with Dynamism and we get trouble. an illusionist using all of his 5 con slots for dynamism, sacrificing all other buffs, would still be worse at buffing his group with proc than a troub who is using one single con slot for his group Aria buff. and the troub still could buff group haste + group stats increase + group hate management +group run speed or what ever he decides to, all at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>stackable or not, this is not balance.</DIV>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zitha wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belizarius wrote:<BR> <P>I think this whole line of discussion is a red herring.</P> <P>Bard + bard does not stack.</P> <P>Chanter + chanter does not stack.</P> <P>But Bard + chanter stacks very nicely.</P> <P>Troubs do have a lot of nice group buffs, but guess what?  They still have concentration slot issues just as we do.</P> <P>Some of the best groups I have are when we have me and a Troub in group.  <FONT color=#ccff00>Why the fixation on either/or?</FONT>  In fact, sometimes we need both just to keep from going OOP on the longer fights.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Its not about a fixation on either / or.</DIV> <DIV>Its about the question if there is balance between the "utility scout" and the "utility mage".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can compare it to the question of wizard and warlock dps. tell a wizard it doesnt matter if he is only half as efficient than a warlock cause both classes stack anyways...</DIV> <DIV>get the point?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>power regen and stackability of power regen is my smallest concern when looking at chanter and bards. that one bard can buff as efficient and better than 2 illusionists together is what seems wrong to me. sure bards are more of a buffing class while enchanter are more about CC, but the discrepancy seems too high. </DIV> <DIV>bards buffing benefit IMO mostly should be that they can chose from more options (which they can), not that their compareable buffs are that much better by itself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>take bard haste versus chanter haste for example, this seems good balanced to me. they get the group version with about 18% at adept 1, we get the single target version with 34% or so. for bard that means as soon as they have 2 melee in group their buff will equal to ours (2x18%). if there are more melee in group bards will be better off if both classes only use one con slot for haste, but the chanter could decide to use a second con slot and sacrifice some other buff instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>try the same with Dynamism and we get trouble. an illusionist using all of his 5 con slots for dynamism, sacrificing all other buffs, would still be worse at buffing his group with proc than a troub who is using one single con slot for his group Aria buff. and the troub still could buff group haste + group stats increase + group hate management +group run speed or what ever he decides to, all at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>stackable or not, this is not balance.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>For reference, I have a dirge and an illusionist 50+.</P> <P>For damage buffs, I believe my illusionist improves more against targets easy enough to hit.</P> <P>The reason is our proc buff is far superior than that of a dirge.  Ours is about 5 times more effective per person we cast it on.  My bards proc is an 12% chance to proc for 110-180 damage or close to that.  My Illusionist has a 33% chance to proc for 190-230ish.  That's a very large increase in effectiveness.</P> <P>The haste buff I don't even bother with unless I have free concentration, it just doesn't have the same impact as the proc does.  Occationally I will put it on tanks, who does have a higher percentage of damage coming from auto attack.</P> <P>Now, my dirge does offer another buff which helps a lot against higher yellow and orange con mobs, by increasing melee skills (troubadors increase caster skills). </P> <P>However, we do have a LOT better effectiveness with mez than a troubador (we have 3 mez's that have faster recast timers) and we do a lot more damage as well.  Against tough mobs, we also can keep a mob stifled, stuned and dismayed.  These things help a tank handle tough mobs more so than a troubador or dirge.  What the bards do, however, is help people hit higher level mobs easier.</P>

[booga]

Troubador's group wide spell Aria spell is better than Dynamism unless they changed it (used to be worse before it went live).  Their buffs are amazing as well.  They really lucked out in the combat revamp. <div></div>

[Belizarius]

<DIV>In terms of balance, I agree Troubs probably beat us in terms of augmentation buffs for the group.  However I've never felt that a Troub was going to replace my role in a group (or raid), as we work so well together, and that seemed to me what was being argued.  And I don't think they are better than us across the board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that the Troub closest to my level in our guild has a much harder time soloing than I do.  Without a group to buff they seem to be comparitively weak still.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it hard to believe that an Illusionist cannot out-dps a guardian post revamp.  I know that when we have a guardian tanking, the mobs health hardly seems to move until I start casting.  Master II of Prismatic Strife seems to help a lot.  I'm fairly happy with my direct DPS.  Pet, 2 x Intensity, Strife on pet as often as possible, double dot, construct, and HO+nukes, we can pump it out when we want to, but you have to work at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We still have the best mezzes by far, and it looks like social aggro is going to be in the game now, so mezzes will be more important.</DIV> <DIV>We also have pretty good stifles, stuns and cripples.  Dropping 5 levels off the mob's melee ability does help!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think we have a 'main job', but we seem to have a pretty good balance of utility and DPS, of group and solo abilities, which we didn't have before.</DIV>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR><BR> <P><BR>For reference, I have a dirge and an illusionist 50+.</P> <P>For damage buffs, I believe my illusionist improves more against targets easy enough to hit.</P> <P>The reason is our proc buff is far superior than that of a dirge.  Ours is about 5 times more effective per person we cast it on.  My bards proc is an 12% chance to proc for 110-180 damage or close to that.  My Illusionist has a 33% chance to proc for 190-230ish.  That's a very large increase in effectiveness.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are comparing apples to oranges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was comparing TROUBADOR buff line ARIA song to illu Dynamism line. Both buffs have same proc effect, procing on hostile spells. The difference is that the troub song is a group buff, which i am completely fine with, but that it is also doing higher damage per proc and person. Which make Aria in relation to Dynamism as powerful as ice comet compared to our nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge buff is a completely different story as its harder to compare. If i remember right dirge proc is going off on melee damage? Which would explain the lower proc rate and hit, as melee swings are much faster than a caster is able to chain cast and thus will have a check to proc more often. I would assume that overall it adds as much damage on a melee as Aria adds on a caster, with the downside that, while Aria will still proc on a melee char in most groups, the Dirge buff will be waisted on casters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think enchanter vs bards are that much unbalanced in general. Or better say the niche we are both specialised in, although overlapping is some areas, is still distinct enough to make us stackable, as pointed out by Belizarius.</DIV> <DIV>What is unbalanced IMO is specifically the troubs Aria line (i dont have experience with Dirge proc). As in a full group with this buff alone a troubador - while afk - can do almost as much damage as an illu can do by chain casting. Which doesnt seem right to me. I remember the damage on Dynamism in beta was reduced when they upped the proc rate a bit. Maybe they should have left damage like it has been and only increase proc rate and we would have it at right balance now.</DIV>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belizarius wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it hard to believe that an Illusionist cannot out-dps a guardian post revamp.  I know that when we have a guardian tanking, the mobs health hardly seems to move until I start casting.  Master II of Prismatic Strife seems to help a lot.  I'm fairly happy with my direct DPS.  Pet, 2 x Intensity, Strife on pet as often as possible, double dot, construct, and HO+nukes, we can pump it out when we want to, but you have to work at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>A guardian tanking cannot be compared to an illusionist in dps mode.</P> <P>To get a fair comparison we would have to look at guardian in dps mode as well. They get a real good offensive stance, which helps them to put out very respectable dps if they try to. Who will be ahead prolly will depend a lot on equippment and spell upgrades, and of course situation. But i wouldnt bet that its impossible for a guardian to outdamage us.</P>

[Belizarius]

<P>Good points.</P> <P>Just seems that every time I group with a Guardian post revamp, they complain about how bad their DPS is now, while I'm pretty happy with mine.</P> <P>Much as I hate pets, I'm learning to love my stunt double.  Duoing with a healer last night, with pet tanking + my crowd control, we handled some pretty tough encounters quite happily.  Pity my Troubador friend was on vacation...</P>

[DavidJay]

<P>wow this guy said nothing different and didnt get flamed like me heh. I agree with you somewhat and was at first dismayed mostly with what would happen on raids i used to be the mana regen for all and not just a little but..... if we only had one spell Color Shower is I believe going to become a necessity for raids, as far as I know not many other classes can stifle epics which saves everyone a lot of health/debt if the epic cant get that uber kick you butt spell off=) just my input hope everyone doesnt freak on me</P> <P>yeah our regen took a hit, Id like to see it boosted back a bit I know we get savante at lv 51+ which is another regen, also if you master or adept3 dev stare its a rather nice boost to the power regen as it compares)maybe even a little higher) than our school breeze line, also note if your in the MT group which you prolly wont be heh mana cloak adept3 will fill a tanks power bar before you can say holy regen</P>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DavidJay wrote:<BR> <P>wow this guy said nothing different and didnt get flamed like me heh. I agree with you somewhat and was at first dismayed mostly with what would happen on raids i used to be the mana regen for all and not just a little but..... if we only had one spell Color Shower is I believe going to become a necessity for raids, as far as I know not many other classes can stifle epics which saves everyone a lot of health/debt if the epic cant get that uber kick you butt spell off=) just my input hope everyone doesnt freak on me</P> <P>yeah our regen took a hit, Id like to see it boosted back a bit I know we get savante at lv 51+ which is another regen, also if you master or adept3 dev stare its a rather nice boost to the power regen as it compares)maybe even a little higher) than our school breeze line, also note if your in the MT group which you prolly wont be heh mana cloak adept3 will fill a tanks power bar before you can say holy regen</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Savante is at 52, and it is not a regen.  It reduces the power cost of all members by 58% for 30 sec.</P> <P>Mana Cloak is a group spell now.</P>

[DavidJay]

<DIV>HMM sun, when you say group spell your saying that it doesnt require you to be hit to get the uber regen, shame on me for not reading that spell desription heh Im logging on now to check it out well hell then thats awesome. thanks for info on savante I wasn't positive but in essence it still reduces or prolonges folks power anyways, guess im grinding out that 65% left to 52=)</DIV>

[KaynanEmberwood]

<span><blockquote><hr>DavidJay wrote:<div>HMM sun, when you say group spell your saying that it doesnt require you to be hit to get the uber regen, shame on me for not reading that spell desription heh Im logging on now to check it out well hell then thats awesome. thanks for info on savante I wasn't positive but in essence it still reduces or prolonges folks power anyways, guess im grinding out that 65% left to 52=)</div><hr></blockquote> Mana Cloak is a group spell AND it requires you to be hit for it to proc.  It may as well be a buff for your main tank.</span><div></div>

[Manyak]

<DIV>as far as the illu-troub buffs go, it really is a problem that troubs get the same types of buffs as illus but are much more effective....i parsed dynamism with the troubs buff (whatevr its called) and found that in 30/30 battles it did about 20% more DPS than dynamism did. plus its a group buff... if it requires less concentration to be put on an entire group, should it at least do LESS damage than dynamism?</DIV>