People who want big DPS should choose another class

[jin]

<DIV>I'm sorry to be confrontational BUT.. we have a variety of issues with the enchanter class.  Probably the least important is DPS.  I have no idea why anybody would choose the class with the lowest DPS in the game and then complain about DPS.  We should be able to solo blues or whites, we should have great power regen and haste, we should be the masters of crowd control.  These things are all major issues within the enchanter class and always will be.  Enchanters do not fit into the archetypes of Tank, healer, DPS classes.  They are utility and as such need their utility enhanced, NOT DPS.  For those inclined to flame this concept, please save your time and start an actual DPS character.</DIV>

[Sug]

I dont have a problem with DPS anymore.   I was soloing 1 down arrow 55's at level 50.  I think the biggest problem is now that nobody seems to need me anymore, and as a result I solo.   But I think that people dont realize my potential because my potential has changed a bit.   It's a ways off, but once I get to reflect spells(as long as it works how I think it will work and doesnt get nerfed) then I will be a power house in raiding and groups again.

[Malle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jinna wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM>*snip*</EM>  We should be able to solo blues or whites, we should have great power regen and haste, we should be the masters of crowd control.  These things are all major issues within the enchanter class and always will be.  Enchanters do not fit into the archetypes of Tank, healer, DPS classes.  They are utility and as such need their utility enhanced, NOT DPS. <EM> *snip*</EM></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Out of those points you raise, I would agree that Haste is a problem buff, but only because the issue of auto-attack not being as important for melee damage as specials is still in effect post-revamp. </P> <P>Which out the others do you feel we currently need help on and what are your suggestions? We can solo blues or whites, we do have power regen sufficient for most classes to not run OOP in our group, we do have 2 single target mezzes and a greatly improved group mezz that would allow us to call ourselves 'masters of crowd control'.</P> <P>Apart from group Invis (which is something you don't mention) where is the great gap in our utility? As I said in another post, we can choose whether to do direct DPS, buffed DPS, Damage mitigation, or crowd control. Throw in Invis and Breeze and you have a pretty good utility character imho.</P>

[Padi]

<P>Just to add to the utility Mallevi mentioned.  We have 3 other very nice and useful utility spells, all 3 were greatly improved.</P> <P>Stifle, it works on epics now.  Yes, power drain sucks, but the stifles if kept up achieve the same goal.</P> <P>Root.  Now it's fast casting and holds very well, it even has a stifle effect.</P> <P>Dismay. This is a very good debuff on fights against heavy melee mobs.  Coupled with stifle, an illusionist can take a mob that is very tough and turn it into a kitten.  Fighting the guy on the carpet 3 quest, people kept telling me how near impossible it was.  It would ice comet, and when it wasn't using ice comet, it was meleeing for 1000 damage.</P> <P>Well, we pulled the mob, I stifled it the first attempt, and the melee killed the tank pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] fast.  Faster than our healer could keep up.  On the next fight, I stifled and dismayed the mob and the tank barely took damage.</P>

[Malle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Padien wrote:</P> <P><EM><snip></EM> Fighting the guy on the carpet 3 quest, people kept telling me how near impossible it was.  It would ice comet, and when it wasn't using ice comet, it was meleeing for 1000 damage.</P> <P>Well, we pulled the mob, I stifled it the first attempt, and the melee killed the tank pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] fast.  Faster than our healer could keep up.  On the next fight, I stifled and dismayed the mob and the tank barely took damage.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hehe, I had exactly the same experience. People were being wiped left, right and centre and really moaning about that guy. I joined and we killed him first time with barely anyone getting scratched. Killed him 4 times now. That's what I meant when I mentioned damage mitigation. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>We're caster killers, no doubt about that.<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edited for spelling*</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mallevi on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:03 AM</span>

[zit]

<DIV align=center><SPAN> <HR> </SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN>jinna wrote:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I'm sorry to be confrontational BUT.. we have a variety of issues with the enchanter class.  Probably the least important is DPS.  I have no idea why anybody would choose the class with the lowest DPS in the game and then complain about DPS.  We should be able to solo blues or whites, we should have great power regen and haste, we should be the masters of crowd control.  These things are all major issues within the enchanter class and always will be.  Enchanters do not fit into the archetypes of Tank, healer, DPS classes.  They are utility and as such need their utility enhanced, NOT DPS.  For those inclined to flame this concept, please save your time and start an actual DPS character.</SPAN></P> <DIV align=center><SPAN> <HR> </SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN>First off I didn’t “chose the class with the lowest DPS” intentionally. When I started my class noone did know yet how dps for the different classes would work out. I was aware sorcerer would outdamge me. Having chosen a class of the mage archetype, a dps archtepye, I did not expect being outdamaged by non-dps archetypes (healer, fighter) as well though.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I agree enchanter are master of CC and should be. Actually we just got our CC abilities enhanced a bit. This doesnt change anything at the fact that many other classes, although not being as good as chanter, still have sufficient CC abilities to handle at least 1-2 adds. I am very very seldom in a situation where i have to handle more than 1, even less 2 adds. So my CC may be nice, but its nothing that’s looked after by groups most of the times. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>In the past days I have been in different groups who obviously hardly ever did rely on a chanter before to take care of the adds. Even after I reminded them that I<SPAN>  </SPAN>could do CC, they still would handle adds themselves out of pure habit. In one group the wiz was doing it by stun/mez, in one group the swash was doing it by mez, in one group the monk was doing it by mez-tank, in one group the fury was doing it by root. It worked. Not as elegant as if I had been able maybe, but it was sufficent. And there are several other classes who can do even better than the ones I have grouped with. So being best in CC does cut it as much as being best in casting see invis. In some situations nice to have, but its not enough to neglect everything else. And if I had 10 mez spells this still wouldn’t change anything.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Enchanter are utility, not DPS?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>How to define utility?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Is everything that doesn’t do direct dps = utility?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Lets have a look at my monk: he has invis, FD, water breathing, group haste, self haste, self proc buff, can stun as good as my chanter, got taunts, interrupts, intercede, can buff avoidance of others, can buff attack of the group, can debuff defense of the mob. He can self buff resists and can dispell hostile effects. And he can tank. (not to mention that he got much higher defense). I would say he got almost as much utilitiy than my illusionist. Would anyone consider him a utility class? If you have a close look at other classes you will realise that almost all of them get as much utility as enchanter and several of them get much more. If there exists anything like an utiltiy class, then at least ¾ of all classes can be called an utility class. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The only thing that can be discussed here is if the utility of other classes can compete with illusionist utility. What has more value: power regen ability or tanking ability? Group haste or single target haste? Debuff offense of a mob or debuff defense? FD or see invis? Taunt or mez? The answer is that all is very situational. Enchanter don’t have better or more utility than other classes, they only have a different combination.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>And if we like it or not, but our main utility = CC is not needed most of the times, and can be replaced by abilities of other classes in many cases. So unless we also bring one of the basics aka healing – tanking – dps there is not much point to have us in group. Healing and tanking is not part of our archtepye, leaves us with dps. If we provide dps by haste, procs, nukes, buffs, pet or what ever doesn’t matter as long as it sums up to a meaningful and in relation to other classes reasonable contribution.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>And to find out if our contribution in relation to other classes is balanced, we also have to discuss our dps and have to compare our dps versus dps of other classes, just like we have to compare and weigh the utility. To be able to debuff and keep a named gimped has to be figured in as well as the standard xp group where this isnt necessary and the only thing that counts is how fast a mob is dead. We cannot close our eyes and pretend dps is not important for enchanter. Unless of course we do not care about balance at all.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>

[MillsFairchild]

<span><blockquote><hr>jinna wrote:<div>I'm sorry to be confrontational BUT.. we have a variety of issues with the enchanter class.  Probably the least important is DPS.  I have no idea why anybody would choose the class with the lowest DPS in the game and then complain about DPS. <font color="#ffff00">First of all, the devs (yes, the ones who design the game) have said that we're not supposed to have the lowest DPS.  So quit it with that crap right now.  As it stands, our DPS is quite respectable if played right.</font> We should be able to solo blues or whites, <font color="#ffff00">I can.  And deep yellows with an up arrow as well.  </font> we should have <i>great </i>power regen and haste, <font color="#ffff00">I do.</font> we should be the masters of crowd control.  <font color="#ffff00">I am.</font> These things are all major issues within the enchanter class and always will be.  <font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">Maybe what you're trying to say is these are the things our class is about.  I can agree there.  But I'd hardly call any of those things 'issues' anymore.  If you're having trouble with any of them, you need to learn how to play the class in the post-revamp world.</font> </div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Xalibur]

<DIV>i get spammed with invites after LU13..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>definitely my LFG is more successfull now..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Espyderman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jinna wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm sorry to be confrontational BUT.. we have a variety of issues with the enchanter class.  Probably the least important is DPS.  I have no idea why anybody would choose the class with the lowest DPS in the game and then complain about DPS.  We should be able to solo blues or whites, we should have great power regen and haste, we should be the masters of crowd control.  These things are all major issues within the enchanter class and always will be.  Enchanters do not fit into the archetypes of Tank, healer, DPS classes.  They are utility and as such need their utility enhanced, NOT DPS.  For those inclined to flame this concept, please save your time and start an actual DPS character.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with you. Im sick of hearing people whine because there class isnt the best in game. Suck it up already.

[kaeleth]

Isn't the best in the game??  I beg to differ.  We can control the flow of the battle.  I love being an illusionist.  I loved being an illusionist before the combat changes.  Love it even more after.  Maybe crowd control is not needed, but it sure does help.  With proper crowd control, you only need one healer in a group.  Our stuns and stifles are unmatched except maybe by our coercer brethern.  I think we rock!

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kaeleth wrote:<BR>Isn't the best in the game??  I beg to differ.  We can control the flow of the battle.  I love being an illusionist.  I loved being an illusionist before the combat changes.  Love it even more after.  Maybe crowd control is not needed, but it sure does help.  With proper crowd control, you only need one healer in a group.  <FONT color=#ccff00>Our stuns and stifles are unmatched except maybe by our coercer brethern</FONT>.  I think we rock! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Our stifles are unmatched as far as i know. But our stuns are just about average, at par with other mages, some fighters and several scouts. For coercer its different though.

[Manyak]

<DIV>no matter what our contribution is to a group, i can live with that. in the end we will all be lvl 60 and none of us will care that much cuz we will be raiding (unless of course ur guild doesnt raid). what im concerned about is what are contribution will be in a raid. i know i didnt sign up as an illusionist to sit and mash muttons. i mean yay we stifle the mob, but then that just makes it "timed" button mashing. something wizzies have to do anyway so they dont pull aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok maybe on SELECT raids well be mezzing...like how wed do with angler or zalak....but i still dont see the fun in button mashing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i signed up as a chanter, knowing im not a DPSer. the chanters job was CC and buffs. And any extra few seconds left over there was some DPS thrown in. Having all those DoTs to stack were good since they did more total damage than the direct nukes, and once stacked u could forget about doing anything to that mob for a while since u were already doing the damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and if u ask me, having 60 pts per tick of mana regen across an entire raid (insight master 1) is much more important than just stifling a mob constantly. and since epics are resistant to the stifle effect, it doesnt always stick as long, so its impossible. yeh mind drain might still be draining mana, but the stifle effect might not be there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if i get all this right, we have become no more than necros. we have a pet, reasonable DPS, and its just those utility spells that are different.</DIV>

[Redorio]

<P>From an outsider's viewpoint...</P> <P>As a conjuror, what I want enchanters to be doing, is debuffing,stiffling, stunning mobs as direct assault. Stiffles,stuns lowering their stats and power pools are great, stiffles in particular! Gawd [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I get PO'd at folk who let high damage mobs beat on the tank and don't *stun*, yeesh :> If' it's a ^^^ or the like *stun* it or stiffle. Who's best at stiffles...Do folk realize how much mob damage is done by specials, how much healer mana etc you save by a stiffle or stun?</P> <P>I'm not up on chanters buffs now with all the changes, but what I can see is that any amount of buff/debuff has been lowered but is very useful directly, therefore is good. If you can buff a melee player to heck with haste and procs WHOPPEE! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> good for me, faster groups kill the better. mana regen too, can I hug you? :> Plus you can do DPs. Your character cannot do direct DPs liek my character can, nor should they, however their indirect output is huge. Just for the sake of argument, say my DPS is +100% of yours, but you boost the DPs of everyone in group by 25%....see the value? If you don't, I don't want to hear you whine in any group I'm in becuase *you*suck, not yer class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>To the smart enchanters here, LFG ? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[DavidJay]

For the record, Ive said I think our dps should be higher, BUT I LOVE BEING AN ILLUSIONIST, to say we should of picked another class because we want big DPS no thats not true at all. Should we have the biggest hell no we are the most utility based mage we should have the lowest of the mages, just like the bards should have the lowest of the scouts because we get added utility, and I agree with Miss she seems to post often and is defiantly sick of hearing about our dps and I agree with her it doesnt suck, If I go into total DPS mode its pretty damned good, lately my guild has been going into CLefts of Rujark of SS and one grouping the epicx2 room of orcs, I havent even been bothering to mezz I just master color shower/dev stare/ master Pysch Spec and even actually keep my double up depending on the group makeup. I do admit I find myself not using haste all that often post changes, possibly my one complaint is that could be made a group buff, on the other hand it wouldnt make us have to choose conc slots as carefully, but I just dont see the added dmg output I see it more as a way for the MT to maybe keep his hate up. its all situational IMO group makeup accounts for a lot of what i choose to put up and yes we are a dps/utility class so dont think otherwise. Just before release our Pysch spectrum was a lot harder hitting and they nerfed it, probably based off parses that we were more than outdmging bards and should be semi on par with them. I new of the nerf and sold my pysch spec master id been saving for 10p and bought it a week later for 3p, I wish the boost would be given back but I can no longer honestly say our class is broken, we a force to reckoned with especailly if your half as leet as I=P

[Madha]

<P>It makes sense to focus on utility, at least groupwise. You don't really need DPS when you're grouped, other classes can do that for you... </P> <P>But soloers can't really cope with tiny DPS. Mez will eventually break, and the mobs will tear you apart while you chain your mini-DPS or cry for help...</P>

[Vivax]

I agree with the OP and you, Madhaus.  What I'd love to see is a level-by-level analysis of Illusionists, because I believe the level 50+ players' posts about doing mad damage, but I also see my level 30 pitiful damage. At what level do we go from not being able to solo blues to being able to solo yellows?  It's above 30 and below 51, but is there one key spell we get which makes the difference? <div></div>

[Darmash]

I was soloing yellows at level 30, and this was long before LU13. But it was a chore with the root bug (npc teleporting). It should be better now, with improved root and pet. The bad times were at high 40s, when Speechless became useless due to npcs being higher than it's limit, and our overall dps being too low then. <div></div>

[Madha]

<DIV>Actually they should even all classes in terms of soloing. I don't think it's normal that my warlock (though heavily nerfed) can easily take any yellow, while my illusionist dies when he tries anything above white. </DIV>

[Darmash]

At least for 50+ game, we can solo pretty well now. NPCs 3 levels higher are ok, but I experienced increasing resist rates on higher yellows and oranges. I'm not asking to be able to solo orange and red encounters anyway. It's ok now. <div></div>

[Manyak]

<P>ok i tested the DPS myself a few times, parsed it between me and a wizzie at my level, and then parsed with with me and a warlock at my level. i asked both of them to SPAM nukes, and for two templars to keep us alive. i found the following results:</P> <P> </P> <P>On single ^^^ targets:</P> <P>Wizzie: We have about 25% less DPS.</P> <P>Warlock: We have about 25% more DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>On 3 ^  linked targets:</P> <P>Wizzie: We have slightly more DPS.</P> <P>Warlock: We have slightly less DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>On 5 linked targets - one of them ^ and 4 of them with no arrows:</P> <P>Wizzie: We have about Double the DPS.</P> <P>Warlock: We have about 1/2 their DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sorry i didnt actually copy the stats from the parser, but i wasnt exactly planning on posting about it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Either way, these tests were done with the illusiory pet, and dynamism on both me and the pet. Also, the warlocks and wizzies had pretty much all their nukes Master or Adept 3 while all of mine were adept 1 (except for scorching beam, which was master 1). pre-revamp i never upgraded the DPS spells cuz i rarely used them even in raids. So basically, our DPS is balanced between the single target spells and AoE spells. Our DPS is comparable to these classes. In no way are we gimped in it. In fact, i think were the best off. Our DPS is balanced between single target encounters and those big ones where the AoEs come in effect, while wizzies are geared to single targets, and warlocks are best on multiple targets. So not only do we have a good amount of DPS, but we also have it the most versatile.</P>

[Sadaro]

Post revamp, at least at high level, our DPS is awesome.  I was in a full group fighting level 52-55'ish heroic mobs, and I was regularly getting the highest DPS.  The only other contender... the wizard when he could cast Ice Comet. High level hints for achieving great DPS: -- Prismatic Shock is a very efficient spell with a great damage output.  Always have it on the main tank. -- Construct of Logic contributes a decent amount to DPS, especially when cast early in a fight. -- Buff any mages with Dynamism... even if you do without your Personae. -- If you really want to up the DPS, cast your nuke every other spell (giving it time to refresh) -- Although it's listed as AE, color spray does excellent damage to a single mob and has the added bonus of stifling. The typical combat went like this: -- Prismatic Shock on tank as he announces pull (no aggro until he actually hits). -- Construct of Logic or Color Spray (depending on which was up and whether or not the stifle was required) -- Wither Hope -- Scorching Beam -- Lobotomize -- Scorching Beam -- Prismatic Shock on tank (if up) -- Scorching Beam -- by now , the combat is usually over Using this strategy, I was doing 300-400 DPS per fight, plus the DPS of the construct.  The monk couldn't maintain aggro; I'd usually get aggro when the second scorching beam went off.  The paladin could maintain aggro with his 'get 50% of the aggro of a single group member' spell. You'll notice I'm fulfilling a pure DPS role here.  Little or no stifling, mezzing, or debuffing.  Depending on the circumstances, I'll change my style from pure crowd control with a little DPS (usually Prismatic Shock or Construct of Logic) to pure DPS.  Just be sure to let your party know what you're doing.  Sadari Level 52 Illusionist Mistmoore <div></div>

[SunT]

<P>I would like to point out to any wouldbe 'nerf illusionist' screamers, that though we can now put out respectable DPS, we are still horribly power inefficient in comparison.</P> <P>Also, our best spell requires a catalyst.  </P> <P>Not complaining just clarifying.</P> <P> </P>

[zit]

<P>The different groups i have been in usually show that i have no chance to constantly outdamage other classes (besides healer and some tanks). From time to time i will be #1 or #2 in dps, but only if ppl are chatting or semi-afk. IF i am in a guild group. When we fill up our group with pick up member occasionally, these fall behind more often.</P> <P>And like SunTsu pointed out, i will cost me a lot more power than any other class to put out respectable dps.</P> <P>My experience so far is, if an illusionist outdamages any other mage, scout (dunno about bards), bruiser or zerker constantly, then its not cause chanter are so uber dps, but its cause the other player either have not upgraded their gear and skills or simply dont know how to play their class or are plain lazy.</P> <P>We still do nice damage though, i dont want to complain. To rank behind all other scouts and mages is where we should be anyways, so it doesnt really bother me. That we can compete with them if they dont focus is very nice already. In long raid fights i would expect to fall further behind though due to high power cost, but there i have usually different duties anyways.</P>

[Sadaro]

Good point.  When I did my DPS parsing, I had mostly Adept III or Master II spells, and I was definitely using more mana.  I'm not sure if the wizard and scouts had everything upgraded. Also, I was going pure DPS, which meant no mezzing or stunning, very little stilfing, etc. Does anyone have good stats on which buffs to keep up?  I'd really like to see DPS contributions for: - Dynamism - Alacrity - our int buf - Personae I know someone did some work with Personae and Dynamism, but I haven't seen anything on our INT buff. Sadari <div></div>

[MillsFairchild]

It would be nearly impossible to put a meaningful number on how much DPS our Int buff adds.  There are way too many variables involved: <ul> <li>How many mages are in the group?</li> <li>How close is their int to hitting the cap before our buff? (remember: diminishing returns)</li> <li>How often is everyone casting offensive spells that are influenced by int?</li> </ul> It's like trying to say how much DPS our power regen provides.  There's too many factors in the 'conversion' process to give a straight answer. But we can make generalizations.  The buff's usefulness multiplies with each mage added to your group.  Using up 1 concentration to up Int and subsequently add 25 damage to one mage's spells isn't so great.  But adding 25 damage to every spell cast by 3 or 4 mages is much more worth it.  The short answer: it's usefulness varies greatly depending on group makeup.  Use your judgement. <div></div>

[KaynanEmberwood]

<span><blockquote><hr>MillsFairchild wrote:<ul> <li>How close is their int to hitting the cap before our buff? (remember: diminishing returns)</li> </ul> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Are there still diminishing returns?  I was under the impression that the damage modifier scales evenly between 0 and your Int cap of level x 7, at which point you get nothing (but power?) for each additional point of int.</span><div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>KaynanEmberwood wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>MillsFairchild wrote:<ul> <li>How close is their int to hitting the cap before our buff? (remember: diminishing returns)</li> </ul> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Are there still diminishing returns?  I was under the impression that the damage modifier scales evenly between 0 and your Int cap of level x 7, at which point you get nothing (but power?) for each additional point of int.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Cap is 7xlevel+20, not just 7x. But as for the damage scaling, don't think anybody has actually looked at this, but my guess is it's just a straight line increase, and not a curvy line.

[MillsFairchild]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KaynanEmberwood wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>MillsFairchild wrote:<ul> <li>How close is their int to hitting the cap before our buff? (remember: diminishing returns)</li> </ul> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Are there still diminishing returns?  I was under the impression that the damage modifier scales evenly between 0 and your Int cap of level x 7, at which point you get nothing (but power?) for each additional point of int.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Hmm... I know about the cap, but I didn't realize they had changed the way it scales since the time you posted the Int vs. Dmg observations from beta.  Will be something to check out tonight, I suppose. If it was changed to a linear progression, does anyone have numbers on it?  Liiiike... how much % increase per 10 int?</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <span class=date_text>10-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Aedos]

The way int cap works now is that every spell seems to have hardcoded max damage it can do and you achieve this damage at int cap. Any int that is over the cap doesnt seem to make any difference in damage. The problem with this system is that if you at int cap at lvl 50 and spell does 500 damage its hardcoded max damage, when you hit lvl 51 your int cap rises a bit and your int isnt at cap anymore so with the same int as at lvl 50 the spell damage falls to say 490(numbers are just a example). <div></div>

[KaynanEmberwood]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aedosen wrote:The way int cap works now is that every spell seems to have hardcoded max damage it can do and you achieve this damage at int cap. Any int that is over the cap doesnt seem to make any difference in damage. The problem with this system is that if you at int cap at lvl 50 and spell does 500 damage its hardcoded max damage, when you hit lvl 51 your int cap rises a bit and your int isnt at cap anymore so with the same int as at lvl 50 the spell damage falls to say 490(numbers are just a example). <div></div><hr></blockquote> Really???  So you're essentially getting weaker by leveling?  Great!  (assuming this is true, I'll have to test it out somehow) Either way...hard caps are stupid.</span><div></div>

[zit]

unfortunately its true. Its been tested and pointed out several times. there are a lot of threads going on already on different forums regarding this issue.

[MillsFairchild]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KaynanEmberwood wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Aedosen wrote:The way int cap works now is that every spell seems to have hardcoded max damage it can do and you achieve this damage at int cap. Any int that is over the cap doesnt seem to make any difference in damage. The problem with this system is that if you at int cap at lvl 50 and spell does 500 damage its hardcoded max damage, when you hit lvl 51 your int cap rises a bit and your int isnt at cap anymore so with the same int as at lvl 50 the spell damage falls to say 490(numbers are just a example). <div></div><hr></blockquote>Really???  So you're essentially getting weaker by leveling?  Great!  (assuming this is true, I'll have to test it out somehow)</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>In a way, yes.  Overall?  Probably not. If by 'weaker' you mean we do less damage, then I might agree.  But keep in mind that our other skills go up as well.  Our resist rates against the same level mobs go down.  We get new +int buffs to compensate for the cap increase.  And as the theory goes, you should also be upgrading your gear as you level anyway. I did some int/dmg tests last night.   The damage increase did appear to be linear.  <b>Using Scorching Beam as the constant, I was getting an increase of roughly 1 dmg for every 3 int increase</b>.  This increase was of course <i>much </i>lower on other spells (lobotomize, wither hope...), but I have yet to work it out as a percentage.  But the point is this: If you were to level and 'lose' 7 Int from the cap, you would essentially be losing 2 dmg or less from each spell. Now, what do you consider a bigger measure of our strength?  An improved resist rate or 2 dmg to each spell? <div></div><p>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <span class="date_text">10-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:56 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <span class=date_text>10-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:57 AM</span>

[KaynanEmberwood]

Ok, 'weaker' was probably not the best word to use in this case.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I actually meant, as you pointed out, that our spells would be doing less damage and not that we were weaker on the whole.  I totally agree with you that 1 level is better than a few points of damage. The gist of my argument should have been that this is just another reason why hard caps are bad <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Darmash]

Back to the first subject I would add that in challenging encounters (yellow heroic ones), our damage mitigation is prominent, along with our CC abilities on adds. Before CU a group would just mow into a field and AE anything that would come, the more the better, now every add is a bad news, potentially deadly, and we are welcome for those abilities. Of course, our damage is not too bad in small group situations, prismatic strife works just like a good sized nuke that does not seem to be mitigated or resisted.<div></div>