A Beta Update From Dev...

[Ly]

<DIV>This was posted on 8/29 in the Beta Illusionist thread by a Dev... keep in mind that 9/2 and 9/3 beta updates brought more big changes (without any listed illusionist specifics), so what has actually been done is up in the air:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>I apologize for not posting responses to subjective gameplay concerns until now. We have been focusing on functionality issues (and will continue to fix these as they are found), but we are beginning the gameplay concern phase now.<BR><BR>Here is the list of Illusionist concerns I have compiled based on feedback on this thread (and other sources):<BR>Damage spell inconsistency - Examining the inconsistent amounts in regards to single-target damage spells versus AoE damage spells.<BR><BR>Dynamism line - Revisiting this spell line to examine the percentage chance of triggering versus the DPS target point. Goal is to make the spell feel more fun and less random.<BR><BR>!!General Control Spells - The revamp has greatly impacted the various control spells (Mez, Stun, Stifle, Root). As part of an overall re-evaluation, we will be taking a look at cast/re-use/duration times for all Control spells, and specifically Enchanter control spells since this is a significant role for these professions. (Obviously, this is a major concern for Illusionists and Coercers)<BR><BR>!!General Stealth/Invis - Invisibility and Stealth are in the process of receiving a major overhaul (Scouts can attest to the pain of the current implementation). This includes their respective detection spells/abilities. The goal here is to make spells that are useful and not spells that exist just for the sake of upgrading. This may very well include removal of upgrades/later spells in an Invis or See Invis line, especially if the upgrade offers no new functionality.<BR><BR>Functionality:<BR>Consistent HO and Spell icons across Spell Lines - As Kaisa nicely posted about, I'll be making these much more consistent across the same spell line.<BR></FONT></DIV>

[Slay Min]

<DIV>I am pleased to hear that someone is paying attention to our often ignored class.  Here is hoping they return illusionists/coercers to eq1 standards of what an enchanter utility class should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Undisputed masters of crowd controll through charm, mesmerise, stuns, roots, and in eq2 stifles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Providers of the most potent power regeneration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We did not create illusionists and coercers to be a dps class.  Please restore the crowd controll and utility that the eq2 advertisements and manuals promised us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you for the attention to our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hermit</DIV> <DIV>Vindicate</DIV> <DIV>1st Illusionist to 50 and the 9th 50 on Tox</DIV>

[Snive]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr><div><font color="#ffff33">...but we are beginning the gameplay concern phase now.</font></div><hr></blockquote> And only two weeks to go. Good for them. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span></span><div></div>

[Catl]

<P>How about this issue?</P> <P>It can be argued that the single most important benefit to having an enchanter in the group is power regen enhancements.  It is actually possible NOW, without regard to DOF, to replace this power regen through the use of in combat regen items, such as prismatic weapons, HQ reward items and other various rings of power regen, etc.  These power regen items are things that most players will receive in the natural course of play as they level up,  It should be noted that these are all IN-Combat power regen items,  The changes currently scheduled to enchanter power regen as part of DOF will make our power regen IN-COMBAT only!  This will mean that non combat power regen cannot be enhanced in any way by an enchanter,  Player made drinks and many, many other items are available to enhance this,  This situation that  SOE has developed completely trivializes enchanter power regen capabilities,  There is no easy fix for this even if the developers had a desire to fix it, which they don't,  In fact, it has gotten worse instead of better,</P> <P>How about this?</P> <P>The developers have designed into the game a number of solo instances,  These instances are a "one size fits all" and can currently be completed more easily by some classes than others,  Specifically, if you are a tank with a ton of HP you are ok,  If you are a healer you are ok,  If you are DPS you may or may NOT be ok,  If you are an enchanter you fall so short of being OK that you need something far more than some marginal DPS enhancement in order to be OK,</P> <P>And this?</P> <P>Unless enchanter crowd control abilities can mean the difference between life and death for a group, save your time playing with them,  They are trivial,</P> <P>A Note to Developers:</P> <P>The things that make a person take pride in a character into which they have invested much time and money are those unique and important abilities that character can bring to a group,    Those abilities for an enchanter include power regen, haste, and group invisi.  All were in need of being enhanced for DOF.  Instead, power regen was made group only, in-combat only, and was further trivialized as described above,  Haste is group only and further trivialized by various self haste class abilities and items,  Group invisi is scheduled to be cut by more than 80% in duration,  </P> <P>It appears that there was no vision in planning the development of this class which is not only severly broken, and slated to become more broken, but is actually unfixable without going back to square one and deleting a few of these items that make us redundent,  Unless you are ready to make an attempt at actually fixing the class, take a hike and don't waste our time,  Meanwhile we will decide if we want to play this game enough to abandon our useless enchanter class characters and start some other class,</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Oghi]

<DIV><FONT size=2>I'm fairly sure that Insight buffs regen both in-combat and out.  Players won't be reaching the regen caps via items alone -- they will need a chanter or bard.  I also disagree heartily with Catlea's general "the class is not useful" concerns, but I'm frankly tired of typing all the reasons why <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

[Catl]

The DOF changes currenty planned make illuisionist power regen in-combat only,  Players do not actually have to have power regen at its cap to have sufficient power,   Power regen is our primary calling card for groups,  SOE has been giving it away in dribs and drabs to the entire game,  I am sure that DOF will include plenty of new power regen items for those who haven't reached cap,  For those that are tired of hearing how our underpowered class has been further crippled, I am sorry,  You don't gets problems fixed by shutting up and going with the flow,

[Oghi]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Catlea wrote:<BR>The DOF changes currenty planned make illuisionist power regen in-combat only, <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Catlea, this is from Moorgard's up-to-date changes log:</P><FONT color=#ffff66><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P><FONT color=#ffff66> <P>Health/Power Regen</P> <UL> <LI><SPAN>In-combat regeneration of power is capped at 1.5 times the character's level. In-combat health regen is capped at 3 times the character's level. These numbers may be adjusted during testing.</SPAN></LI> <LI>When outside of combat, characters now receive both in-combat and non-combat regen effects. Previously only the greater of the two applied</LI></UL> <P></P></FONT> <HR> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[mio]

And now we need our own revamp to be on the par. And i came to ever2 because SoE peoples were supposed to be professionals of MMORPGs ... Patience is the root of all virtues, they say ... I've been patiently waiting for my repared c(h)ar for 10 months and now you say i'll have to wait even more? Ok, but this time i'll be patiently laughing <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> 10 months and they still don't know how to make their game work properly, so pathetic. The best publicity for an mmorpg is his player base. I'm part of ever2 player base but not the best publicity anymore and until they prove me any competence in game making. Please someone, find them and tell them some of us (me at least) are still here only because of the time invested in our chars. Too bad there are no conversion to another mmorpg possible, i'll be far already. P.S. : no it's not only about the revamp, it's about the Illusionist joke we are since day 1.

[Lyriel]

<P>Oghler, part of the problem you have is your perspective. You have a 50th level illusionist, probably in top-of-the-line gear with Master spells. You are the exceptional illusionist, not the average one. You will benefit from the unique 50+ level spells in DoF as well. The majority of us do not have the benefit of already being in your position, nor will we even receive lower level versions of those new spells. Tell me why I even want to try to get there now, with the rest of the abilities I've spent my time acquiring and learning being nerfed. Mentor down to the mid-30s for a couple of weeks (not just an hour or two as a lark) -- of course, that won't let you try to live the life of a midlevel solo illusionist, but it will let you see some of the other problems. Compare what I, at 35th level, have in Live versus what I will have after the revamp. Look closely, and you will see that I lose out in every way on the things that defined my class and role before the revamp. CC -- AE nerfed, all nerfed in duration; combine that with the new resist scenarios and you get a splat where I was standing. Power regen -- limited to in-combat, nerfed in efficiency (I won't see Insight for several levels, remember), and will be done better earlier by other classes. Haste -- will take a concentration slot for each single-target cast, still won't affect anything but autoattack combat. Shielding -- will take three concentration slots, so I have the choice of it or maintaining other buffs. I don't think I need to mention DPS shortfall in terms of spells at my level, except to say our DoTs have been tinkered with and not in our favor (new linked timers, some of the defining drains/etc. removed). Adding a not-terribly-useful three-concentration-slot doppleganger (which as you can see means I cannot also shield myself even soloing) and the carrot of new spells in 15 levels does not make up for the loss.</P> <P>Lyriel</P>

[PigLick]

Ok, now I'm not an illusionist, but even I know you are, at best, misinterpreting/misrepresenting some facts here. CC was nerfed, to that I don't think you'll get any argument. However, considering that CC was only ever situational, and pretty rarely used, this is a "bummer" more than a "class breaker." I wish it were different (ie I wish CC was a much more important tool in the game), but it's not. Power regen is not limited to in-combat, and while lower absolute-value wise, is equally if not more useful after the changes, according to pretty much everyone who has actually played with them. And no one else other than coercers does it "better," and no one does it earlier. Bards have caught up, but no one has surpassed enchanters for power regen. Haste barely made a difference before. It sucks to have to use conc and only affect one target, but (I haven't done any comparisions here, just a gut feeling) I bet that the haste on one melee group member results in more dps after the changes than the group haste did pre-revamp. Auto-attack damage is a much bigger component of melee class' damage than it was pre-revamp. Shielding- yep, takes three conc slots, which means you have to make a choice. To me, that's a good thing. Adds to the tactics and strategy and makes things more interesting. You can't just load up every beneficial spell you have and go to town anymore, you actually have tyo use your brain and fit your abilities to the situation at hand. DPS is way higher for enchanters than pre-revamp. There's really nothing else to be said here. Anyone who claims our dps is lower after the revamp than before is simply misguided, because it's just not true. I can't say much about the doppel since I've never used it. It does seem to have some issues (castiung mezzes and roots), but most of the illusionists I've talked to are overall pretty happy with the doppel and find it quite a bit better than "not-terribly-useful." PigLick <div></div>

[KaynanEmberwood]

<div></div><div></div><span><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">Sorry, just wanted to say a few things (</font>comments in yellow are mine<font color="#ffffff">)</font></font><blockquote><hr>Lyriel wrote:<p>Oghler, part of the problem you have is your perspective. You have a 50th level illusionist, probably in top-of-the-line gear with Master spells. You are the exceptional illusionist, not the average one. You will benefit from the unique 50+ level spells in DoF as well. <font color="#ffff00">According to his character profile, Oghier (</font><font color="#ffff00"><span class="field_data_small">Aramur) just hit level 50 this past week (Grats!).  I can't say anything about what master spells he may or may not have, but I didn't see any crazy high end gear on him (no offence of course, I don't have any either). </span></font></p> <p>The majority of us do not have the benefit of already being in your position, nor will we even receive lower level versions of those new spells. Tell me why I even want to try to get there now, with the rest of the abilities I've spent my time acquiring and learning being nerfed. Mentor down to the mid-30s for a couple of weeks (not just an hour or two as a lark) -- of course, that won't let you try to live the life of a midlevel solo illusionist, but it will let you see some of the other problems. Compare what I, at 35th level, have in Live versus what I will have after the revamp. Look closely, and you will see that I lose out in every way on the things that defined my class and role before the revamp. CC -- AE nerfed, all nerfed in duration; combine that with the new resist scenarios and you get a splat where I was standing. <font color="#ffff00">Every illusionist regardless of level will be feeling these effects.  But with the change to our nuke+mez line so that it mezzes 100% of the time I think we're still pretty close to the same level of CC we were before.  Not quite as powerful, but not as bad as some make it out to be.</font> Power regen -- limited to in-combat, nerfed in efficiency (I won't see Insight for several levels, remember), and will be done better earlier by other classes. <font color="#ffff00">You will get the option of selecting a Master2 version of scint aura which is very nice for that level range in comparison to other post revamp forms of incombat regen.  And as Oghier pointed out, our regen works in and out of combat.</font> Haste -- will take a concentration slot for each single-target cast, still won't affect anything but autoattack combat. <font color="#ffff00">Auto attack damage looks as though it's going to mean something post revamp.  And they're also looking at the way haste stacks so soon you'll only be able to get haste like EQ1 (1 haste item, 1 haste spell)</font> </p> <p>Shielding -- will take three concentration slots, so I have the choice of it or maintaining other buffs. <font color="#ffff00">Having to make choices is a good thing.  I personally never use this spell anymore.</font> I don't think I need to mention DPS shortfall in terms of spells at my level, except to say our DoTs have been tinkered with and not in our favor (new linked timers, some of the defining drains/etc. removed). <font color="#ffff00">Our dps has gone up post revamp, regardless of what kind of spin you put on it (trust me, I've tried).  The nightmare line is about the only damage line we had that has received an overall reduction in damage, the rest are up.</font>  Adding a not-terribly-useful three-concentration-slot doppleganger (which as you can see means I cannot also shield myself even soloing) and the carrot of new spells in 15 levels does not make up for the loss. <font color="#ffff00">I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the doppelganger issue.  I think it makes soloing infinitley easier than it used to be...enjoyable even (and I hate soloing and was against the idea of getting a pet initially)</font> </p> <p>Lyriel</p> <hr></blockquote> Sorry to pick your post apart, I'm not trying to say it won't be difficult to level up an illusionist.  But it never was, and that's the fun.  I think the biggest blow to a leveling illusionist that this revamp has done is the changes to Speechless.  It was great while it lasted, but obviously overpowered. [edit] So basically, /agree </span> PigLick  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by KaynanEmberwood on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[Lyriel]

<P>Kaisa, go and do as I asked Oghler. Play in my world, not the 50th level one. It's all I ask. My character is no longer recognizable to me. I feel that the <EM>midlevel</EM> illusionist has lost ground in terms of group utility, for which the class is supposedly best suited. My CC ability has been altered, my buffing capacity as well. If I wanted to be a DPS class, I'd be a wizard. No one looking for a dps class for their group takes an illusionist to fill that slot if they have an alternative. If I wanted to be a pet class, I'd be a Summoner. Grafting a doppelganger onto my spell list doesn't make me one.</P> <P>Lyriel<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Lyriel on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[KaynanEmberwood]

<div></div>Honestly, I don't see the point in mentoring down to the midlevels to feel the effects of the revamp.  Every single thing you said applies as much to us at level 50 as it does to you at your level. Our CC was reduced. Our Buffing was reduced. Our DPS is up (whether we asked for it or not) We have a pet (again, wanted or not) In almost a year of EQ2 being live, on the Antonia Bayle server there has been only a handful of players to reach level 50 as an illusionist (Oghier was 22nd I think), and I believe AB is one of the most heavily populated servers.  It's never been the easiest class to level, but I hardly think it's going to be any more difficult now than it used to be.  If anything, judging by my soloability at 50 (prior to receiving our 3 "new" spells), I would say it will be easier to level.  The hardest part about getting xp for me back in the 30's was actually getting into a group, because soloing was painfully boring and tedious. <div></div>

[Oghi]

<P><FONT size=2>Lyriel,</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Are you testing the changes?  If so, then I'd like to hear some specifics about your pre- and post-revamp capabilities.  I will admit to having given little thought to the 1 - 40 game. I've been concerned with 40 - 60, as the mid-40's are currently when enchanters go from interesting and flexible to tedious breeze bots.  For reference, I quit at level 47, leaving for WoW for several months.   I was tired of illusionist class, which was odd in that we lost capabilities and overall power as we levelled.  The revamp is what brought me back.  It gives me hope that an enchanter at 50th may be as fun to play as it was when I was 30th.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>As for gear, one of the great things about playing a mage class is that gear is not critical.  Melee classes are much more gear-dependant.  I have managed to outfit myself in legendary stuff (quest rewards and rare-crafted), but I don't believe I have a single piece of fabled gear.  Spell upgrades are relatively easy, and I think I have every important one at Adept III or Master I.  Admittedly, that was simple for me because I used to sell tons of drink from my provisioner alt, and my guild has many able crafters.  However, I think that any illusionist should be able to get all spells to Adept 1 or better without a massive effort.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>In any case, I will again ask that, if you have been testing these changes with a mid-level character, you should post details in the proper test forum (devs don't read this one).  Almost all of the attention there now is to the high-end game.  If you're not testing the changes, then I would gently suggest you do some more research by reading posts by people who are (e.g., Kaisa).  Avoid the "sky is falling" screams by people who've not seen the changes in action, but are making assumptions based on isolated, and often incorrect views of one or two spells.  For example, I've seen several people post now that our breeze-line only works in-combat (wrong) or that we'll no longer be able to perform crowd control due to resist issues and the shorter timers (also wrong, as detailed by people who are testing the new mezz spells).</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I'm convinced that the class will be far better post-revamp.  That doesn't mean all is perfect, or that we're finished.  I'd still like to see our invis spells de-nerferized, and the spell selection of the doppelganger should be limited.  But overall, this looks like good stuff <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P>

[Ly]

<DIV>Please read up on the changes to mez / stun / stifle. They were implemented TODAY (9/5) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hot off the press -screenies here >>>  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=6916" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=6916</A> </DIV>

[Lyriel]

<P>I have, in fact, been testing at my level range (the devs have gotten plenty of /feedback)... but things have changed again, dramaticly, as they are wont to do in beta. The changes pushed today make me much happier overall; I'm going to go look at the below-40 versions of the spells I see screen shots of elsewhere but I fully expect they reflect the changes that have Kaisa and Lynx jumping for joy -- in which case, I'll be jumping right along with them. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>*Edit* - Ok, I am jumping! The control spells in my arsenal seem more useful than ever after that patch. The recast-to-duration ratio is much better; I was very happy to see it now a tad under .5 for Lock Mind in particular. As an added bonus, my doppelganger, while still loving Ego Shock, no longer seems bent on mezzing anything!</P> <P>Lyriel, happily eating crow</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Lyriel on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:31 PM</span>

[Jaxidi]

<DIV> <P>I'm VERY disappointed with the Psychotic Spectrum changes. We were becoming a decent dps class with that single spell being the source of most of our DPS. I'm VERY happy with the new CC changes. However, I can definitely see how giving us the best of both worlds is unfair.</P> <P>I recommend doing something that can still give us the best of both worlds yet without keeping it unbalanced. What I suggest is to force us to choose only one or the other for any particular situation. Perhaps this can be implemented in a way such that our mezzes have a debuff effect on ourselves that drop our DPS ability by X percent. This debuff would obviously drop whenever our mez dropped for some reason whether by cancelling it or somebody breaking mez. Perhaps this debuff should or should not stack with itself (either it's an all or nothing thing with an 80% debuff or the debuff is a 20% debuff and mezzing one mob won't affect us so much but mezzing 4 mobs will make our dps pointless - of course these #s need to be adjusted). If this system was put in place, we would be able to have the best of both worlds but in a way such that we can't use both at the same time forcing us to either be crowd-control or to be dps depending on the situation. If something like this were adopted, I would hope the mez/nuke line would be excluded from this debuff to allow us some minor mez abilities for in a soloing situation.</P> <P>Just my $0.02 worth! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> </DIV>

[Bbe]

<P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN>I apologize I'm probably hijacking this thread with a newbish question but I've read a lot of references to a doppelganger spell Illusionist are getting but I've never actually seen the spell or really any info on it at all, other than how it behaves. Anyone able to toss a link for me please, is this something we are still getting?</SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV><FONT color=#0066ff>*EDIT* I think I finally found what I was looking for /blush sorry It's late <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Bbena on <span class=date_text>09-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:36 AM</span>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynx wrote:<BR> <DIV>This was posted on 8/29 in the Beta Illusionist thread by a Dev... keep in mind that 9/2 and 9/3 beta updates brought more big changes (without any listed illusionist specifics), so what has actually been done is up in the air:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>I apologize for not posting responses to subjective gameplay concerns until now. We have been focusing on functionality issues (and will continue to fix these as they are found), but we are beginning the gameplay concern phase now.<BR><BR>Here is the list of Illusionist concerns I have compiled based on feedback on this thread (and other sources):<BR>Damage spell inconsistency - <FONT color=#ff3300>Examining the inconsistent amounts in regards to single-target damage spells versus AoE damage spells.<BR></FONT><BR>Dynamism line - Revisiting this spell line to examine the percentage chance of triggering versus the DPS target point. Goal is to make the spell feel more fun and less random.<BR><BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why i am not surprised they changed the damage of the AE spells to match the low damage on our single target nukes, and not the other way round......  :smileymad:</DIV>

[Stealth Status]

<DIV>Feel free to use my toon as an example of exceptional.  10 fables and 12 Masters =PPPP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got very excited today when I read about the Buffed CC abilities and the Buffed Magi Shielding. Also , I hear the doppleganger isnt casting mez and root anymore..... SOUNDS GOOD YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 6 days to go.</DIV>

[KaltenAlTh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stealth Status wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also , I hear the doppleganger isnt casting mez and root anymore<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Can someone confirm this please?</DIV>

[Ly]

<DIV>As of yesterday AFTER the patch with all the new changes, I saw my doppleganger cast a mez as an opening spell...... </DIV>