Making Lemonade

[SunT]

<DIV>So we are getting changed whether we like it or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets take a long hard look at it and see what we can ask ot have fixed.  Ranting that the change sux will not help us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take a hard look and try to see what is good what is bad and what cant be lived with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then lets ask for change based on this info.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is good:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better stuns with longer duration.  </DIV> <DIV>A stun and power drain that appears to work on Epics.  </DIV> <DIV>A lower level form of debuf for epics.</DIV> <DIV>No longer mezzed when casting group mez.</DIV> <DIV>Group only buffs, so no more tendonitis.</DIV> <DIV>DPS increase.</DIV> <DIV>Root will last full duration if it sticks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is bad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too much on conc slots.</DIV> <DIV>Appears Coercer still have better breeze and better DPS and longer stuns.</DIV> <DIV>Still to few stuns with to short a duration.</DIV> <DIV>Nerfed CC for shorter mez with longer recast times.</DIV> <DIV>OMG Nerf of group invis.</DIV> <DIV>Limited ability to buff groups due to conc slot limitation.</DIV> <DIV>Nerf of power drains.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I can't live with:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is the plan for Group invis then take it away.  There are two levels of it now both equally useless.  It will never get used.  Fix it or take it back and give us something else like stuns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nerf of speechless.  I found this to be our biggest contribution to the group.  Losing our ability to fully and quickly drain a mob is really depressing.  There is NO POINT in partially draining a mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jury is still out on the rest.  Please comment.</DIV>

[thrownho]

There's a lot more than that getting nerfed...but I won't go into it here since I already made a post about it in the In Testing area. Anyways, just wanted to offer up a few corrections...yes, root will stick for it's full duration, IF the mob is not touched. Damage will still break it like always, so this spell is really remaining unchanged, as the only way it breaks early now is with damage. From what I'm seeing, our stuns, at least at level 50, are remaining exactly the same. There are no upgrades whatsoever, except for the 1 second extra to stunning array. Also, the stun does not work on epics, the only thing that works on it are the other effects of that same spell, such as power drain. The group only buffs I think are a HUGE downgrade...yes, it might be "easier" for us now since we only have to cast Insight once, but now we will be much, much less needed in raid situations, since buffing only one group is simply not very beneficial to the raid. In my opinion, the fix for this would have been to give Insight a 5 second recast and a 30 minute - 1 hour duration, this would have made it very easy to buff everyone and we would have kept some of our usefulness. As for the group mez situation, I doubt this spell will even be used anymore considering the 8 second duration and 1 minute recast, so the fact that it doesn't mez you anymore is pretty insignificant. However, all this being said, I still have hope that SoE will notice what they're doing and give us some actual fixes. I have been waiting for these combat changes for a very, very long time, and I know that they will not let it go to live this way. If they do, they either need to rename the class or take it out of the game completely, seeing how we will no longer really be enchanters, but just mini-warlocks. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div>

[Oghi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>thrownhope wrote:<BR><BR>The group only buffs I think are a HUGE downgrade...yes, it might be "easier" for us now since we only have to cast Insight once, but now we will be much, much less needed in raid situations, since buffing only one group is simply not very beneficial to the raid.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>This change should make us *more* necessary for raids, not less.  A raid now needs more than a single enchanter (or bard) -- now, one is needed for each group.  That's an improvement.  As our DPS has also increased, adding those extra mana-batteries will serve multiple purposes.</P> <P>When a single enchanter can buff an entire raid, and when that enchanter does little DPS (the current situation), there is no need for more than one per raid.  I am glad this is changing.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Darmash]

They will take bards instead : more dps, same mana gains, more utility, more armor. Times for enchanters in raids are over, any "intelligent" guild will understand this fast. <div></div>

[thrownho]

Exactly my point Darmash. Why would my guild take more than one enchanter, when we have 3 troubadors who can not only fill our shoes when it comes to mana regen, but also add better buffs, DPS, etc., hell if I was a raid leader I would not take more than one enchanter if we had any bards available. Even having one enchanter at all will be kind of pointless, since it will not benefit the raid in any way, it will only SLIGHTLY benefit the group the enchanter is in. Previously, there were certain raids were mez, aoe mez, drains, and even group invis helped to contribute, but now that we lost all usefulness of these spells all we have is some AoE damage. Yay. Just take an extra warlock instead. <div></div>

[Oghi]

<P>I think you guys are a bit too determined to dislike these changes.</P> <P>I agree that we will have to compete with bards.  We offer the same mana regen and similar DPS (MG's "damage pyramid" had us as equal to bards).  I do not agree that this is a huge problem.  First, *everyone* competes for raid slots.  Guardians compete with berserkers, brawlers, monks, crusaders and shadowknights.  The healing classes all compete with one another.  Of course we have competition, too -- with troubs, dirges and coercers.  That's only fair.  No subclass has multiple reserved spots on a raid -- why would we be different?</P> <P>I also believe we will have less competition than most.  First, there just aren't that many of us.  If you add all the active 45+ enchanters and bards on every server together, they are probably outnumbered by the plate tanks on Antonia Bayle alone.  And yes, I am exagerrating, but my point stands.  There simply aren't many enchanters and bards.  Furthermore, we stack better than most.  We're DPS now.  DPS stacks better than anything.  Under the old system, one enchanter/ raid was plenty.  More than that was a waste of good slots that could have gone to a class capable of killing things.  Under the new system, one enchanter or bard/ group is needed.  And adding a second enchanter to a group is no longer a complete waste of space -- DPS stacks.</P> <P>It's simply not realistic for us to demand abilities which require our presence.  No other class has them.  Content requires *archetypes,* not classes.  We will now fit into the mage archetype -- DPS with some utility.  We're fortunate that our primary utility, mana regen, is so useful and shared by only one other class.</P> <P>To me, the question is whether our DPS abilities will be sufficient.  Charm could be fairly situational (though tremendous when soloing).  The duplicate looks nice, but I still don't think it'll get us there.  At the end of the day, our top nuke does 300 - 400, and our top DoT does 100 - 150 or so.  Compare those with the thousands of damage that Ice Comet hits for, or the 1k+/ tic that a warlock manages with Devestation.  I wonder if the combat revamp takes us from 10% of sorcerer damage all the way up to 25% of sorcerer damage.  If that's the case, we're still basically mana batteries.</P>

[ClaudiustheG]

<DIV>I agree.  I think with the current numbers being what they are, four slots for enchanters/bards on a raid is more than enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also agree that our DPS is probably still a little low, or wiz/warlock is a little high.  Personally, I think it was a mistake to bump theirs even higher - I can't imagine why anyone thought that was necessary.  There is a chance that they will bump us up a little more, that woud be nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Claudius</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Darmash]

<span><blockquote><hr>Oghier wrote:<div></div>To me, the question is whether our DPS abilities will be sufficient.  Charm could be fairly situational (though tremendous when soloing). <font color="#ffcc66">Charm ranges from useless to dangerous. It may make us able to solo, for those who like this. But if anytime a charmed pet becomes too powerful, be sure that SOE will halve the damage they do, or nerf it more.</font> The duplicate looks nice, but I still don't think it'll get us there.  <font color="#ffcc66">It's probably going to be very weak.</font> At the end of the day, our top nuke does 300 - 400, and our top DoT does 100 - 150 or so.  Compare those with the thousands of damage that Ice Comet hits for, or the 1k+/ tic that a warlock manages with Devestation.  <font color="#ffcc66">Exactly. You still think we got a significant damage upgrade ? It's so weak that nobody will ever consider us in a group for DPS.</font> I wonder if the combat revamp takes us from 10% of sorcerer damage all the way up to 25% of sorcerer damage.  If that's the case, we're still basically mana batteries. <font color="#ffcc66">Not even that now (look the nerfs on power regen). People will consider using an extra DPS to finish fights faster and have out of combat power regen instead.</font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[CanisLupos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darmash wrote:<BR>They will take bards instead : more dps, same mana gains, more utility, more armor. Times for enchanters in raids are over, any "intelligent" guild will understand this fast.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly.  ...and that is what is so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] frustrating to those of you who do not see the problem with the combat changes to illusionists.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the upside it looks like we'll be great solo now!  WOOT! *sarcasm*  I started this class for it's group ability.  43 levels appear to have been for nothing.  We'll see ocne the changes go live though.  I will stick around till then.</DIV>

[Neverborn]

<P>we arnt getting charm...</P> <P>/burstbubble</P> <P> </P> <P>-Myrid</P>

[SunT]

<P>We are left in exactly the same position in regards to solo after the revamp.  Well...maybe worse.  We can't root, not that it works now and our stats drop and we lose Parry.  </P> <P>The pet is a dot, not a tank.</P> <P>We are the tank.  With the pet up we cannot do our defensives.  </P> <P>So to do more damage we need to incease our INT and to stay alive we still need to do AGI and STA.  </P> <P>Just make us a Plate class please.  </P>

[Stealth Status]

PFFFFT TT YEAH RIGHT< guardians compete with NO ONE, TEMPLARS COMPETE WITH NO ONE. ZERKERS COMPETE WITH NO ONE. 

[Stealth Status]

<DIV>This post of yours is all very true,  Har Har, Sun, we find common ground finally!!! Hahah! we will be in a bad situation.</DIV>

[Oghi]

<FONT size=2>I think that's one of the things they're trying to change, Gigas.  Guardians, crusaders and brawlers will all have competetive advantages in tanking some types of encounters, for example.  And all of the healers will be able to do the job.  I don't know if SOE will get it right, but they have said that is the goal.</FONT>

[Sbazt]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<p>We are left in exactly the same position in regards to solo after the revamp.  Well...maybe worse.  We can't root, not that it works now and our stats drop and we lose Parry.  </p> <p>The pet is a dot, not a tank.</p> <p>We are the tank.  With the pet up we cannot do our defensives.  </p> <p>So to do more damage we need to incease our INT and to stay alive we still need to do AGI and STA.  </p> <p><font size="5"><b>Just make us a Plate class please.  </b></font></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> I've been asking for that for a while now.  the Differing priests get differing armor, why not mages...</span><div></div>

[Dystr]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote: ... <div>Appears Coercer still have better breeze... </div><hr></blockquote>lol, wha? </span><div></div>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dystrax wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR><BR>...<BR><BR> <DIV>Appears Coercer still have better breeze...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>lol, wha?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You have the group only you get on live plus the group only you get for combat revamp...</P> <P>Need I pull the spells up and say how many per tick?  I think that will only anger Illusionist more.</P>

[Flipmode]

All regens are the same across the board for bards/encs.  Our highest ones do 24 a tic at adept 1, 28 a tic at adept 3, and 32 a tic at master 1.

[SunT]

<P>Minds Eye:  8.4 per tick stacks with the Breeze line.</P> <P>Or did we forget that one?</P> <P> </P>

[Dystr]

its 11 ppt at master, fwiw, and imho this nominal increase in utility (since it just counts against the 1.5 cap) is made up for by your superior dps and uninteruptable mez.  but thats just my opinion.  i am not saying your DPS should be nerfed, i am not saying your mez should be interuptable.  i am just pointing out a fact and giving my opinion.  i am not taunting, i am not threatening, i am just responding.  so please dont go make a OMG NERF COERCERS CAUSE THEY ARE SO UBER thread. <div></div>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <P>Minds Eye:  8.4 per tick stacks with the Breeze line.</P> <P>Or did we forget that one?</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And did you for get about Fozin's Propitious Vision?  That does 25 a tic on a target.   Sure its single target, but requires no concentration so we can cast it on a peron who gets low in the group.

[SunT]

That is a training spell and they have not been touched yet.  Rest assured it will be fixed and you will still have 30% better regen as a coercer.

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dystrax wrote:<BR>its 11 ppt at master, fwiw, and imho this nominal increase in utility (since it just counts against the 1.5 cap) is made up for by your superior dps and uninteruptable mez.  <BR><BR>but thats just my opinion.  i am not saying your DPS should be nerfed, i am not saying your mez should be interuptable.  i am just pointing out a fact and giving my opinion.  i am not taunting, i am not threatening, i am just responding.  so please dont go make a OMG NERF COERCERS CAUSE THEY ARE SO UBER thread.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you cannot call it a nominal increase really.   30% is a substantial increase untill you hit the cap.  Superior dps is debatable, untill we see some actually parsed logs.  I think the dps will be about equall between us (and yours should be higher if your charming)

[SunT]

<DIV>I think they still get a power tap that gives another 5-7 but can't remember right now.  But it is closer to 50% more regen if they still have thier spells.</DIV>

[Pins]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div></div> <div>I think they still get a power tap that gives another 5-7 but can't remember right now.  But it is closer to 50% more regen if they still have thier spells.</div><hr></blockquote>Coercers have an Intelligence Tap(debuff int, regen power), while we have the normal Power Tap(drain power, regen power). At Adept I they regen 23 initially then 23 every 6s for 24s, this stacks, and does NOT affect your in-combat regen.  At Master I we regen 22 initially then 22 every 4s for 24s.  That means they regen 115, and we regen 154.  Of course that's comparing apples to oranges due to Adept vs. Master.  I would assume at Master vs. Master, it'd be roughly equal. Which means, Mind's Eye is the only spell they have that effectively gives them a better breeze for the GROUP.  While they also have a better regen for their self due to their DoT that gives power back to them. But if you have all 4 regen items on, that's 47.9 regen off the bat.  So, stack breeze, so Mind's Eye? who cares, doesn't stack already at 75.  Get up to Level 60, 47.9+32 already at 79.9, add Mind's Eye, hit cap.</span><div></div>