Why would i want to be an illusionist>?

[Briel]

I was wondering what the best qualities are that an illusionist beholds, and what their weakpoints are.Also, are they any good at soloing?thanks, give your expert opinions, thanks guys!Jacques

[Jaxidi]

<DIV>First of all, if you want to solo do NOT play an illusionist!  For that go roll a paladin, monk, or healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, if you want DPS do NOT play an illusionist!  For that go make a wizard, warlock, bruiser, or monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll break things down in 2 categories for you:  Mid/End-Game Raiding and Mid-Game Leveling:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Mid-Game Leveling:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>While you are leveling up your most important abilities are mez and power regen.  Mez can keep your group alive and allow you to win when it would otherwise have wiped.  However you shouldn't use mez in about 90% of fights (go read old threads on when to mez if you don't understand).  Power regen significantly speeds up the xp when you're just grinding away.  Occassionally power regen will make the difference in allowing you to win versus a wipe.  Generally speaking groups usually want 2 healers in the group but if you have an enchanter you can almost always get away with only 1 healer in the group.  After power regen and mez the next most important skill you have are stifles and power drains.  These can make very difficult mobs (bosses, etc.) much easier.  On top of these skills are buffs that help a bit and you toss in some dps to help a bit more as well but your dps won't be that significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Mid/End-Game Raiding:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>When you fight a raid mob during mid-game, you are really pretty worthless except for power regen, your general buffs, and your general DPS.  However, power regen is HUGE in long raid fights in keeping the healers and DPS players up on power.  End-game raiding power regen is crucial!  This is your primary and most important use by far in end-game raids.  Just in case you didn't know our stuns, stifles, roots, and mezzes do not work on ^^^ mobs so they are pretty much useless in most raid fights except for adds.  However, there are some raid fights where it is helps a ton for you to mez some of the adds.  Some raid mobs spawn large groups of adds at certain times and these times it helps a lot if you AE mez them to give the secondary tank (or MT, whoever) time to react to the new spawns so they don't go gank your healers.  But regardless, expect your role in raids to be power regen plus throw in whatever you can to help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As always, there are exceptions to the rule but the above info gives you the general overview of things.</DIV>

[worlock101]

If you're masochistic in nature, then Illusionist is the perfect class for you. If you'd prefere gratification out of actual game play, and still must play a mage, then go summoner or wizzie/warlock.

[Hermex D'illusionai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brielan wrote:<BR>I was wondering what the best qualities are that an illusionist beholds, and what their weakpoints are.<BR>Also, are they any good at soloing?<BR>thanks, give your expert opinions, thanks guys!<BR>Jacques<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Best Qualities:</P> <P>We have our own personal power regen that doesn't require camping a ridiculous spawn for a robe, having to defeat epic encounters or doing rather difficult HQ's to get <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Furthermore, we have int/wis buffs that free us up some space as far as gear is concerened to really balloon up our agil and stamina making us harder to hit and have more hp's than other mage classes while maintaining failry high int for power purposes.</P> <P>We can mez pretty well though the necessity for it is limited to seriously large encounters where a main tank can probably not hold up to the beating that all the mobs would give out. But it does come in handy while soloing especially where the cast on the run mez is concerned.</P> <P>We can rapidly drain mobs of power once we get speechless and keep them stifled while we do it to prevent them using specials on us. Again not so great a feature in a grouping situation because most creatures are dead before the cast is completed but really nice when soloing.</P> <P>We can AoE decently enough. So far I would say my AoE through 45 has been pretty decent with my one long cast high dd spell and now that they fixed the low damage one to stifle for roughly 2-3 secs after it's an ok spell when working an aoe group. Tossing in that short duration AoE stun after the effect wears off gives healers a little break.</P> <P>Some of our high level debuffs are really super dismay is a great tool. </P> <P>Drawbacks:</P> <P>Because our mezing is rarely needed in day to day groups we dont have a lot of people busting down our doors to join their groups. Certain encounters are such that we might be in high demand for them but the daily xp grind a lot of folks would rather just have a wizard/warlock to nuke the stuffing out things.</P> <P>Power regen though nice and certainly helpfull is not required to have a fruitfull group so much of the above applies to this as well.</P> <P>We wear very light armor and since when we solo we do not have great damage output that is quick in nature like say a wizard or a warlock and we do not have a pet to take damage in our stead like a summoner, we can get dead very quickly if we are not very carefull in how we do things. </P> <P>Soloing Capabilities:</P> <P>Well, I think a lot of people will conflict over this. I dont feel like I've ever had trouble soloing as that is most all the xp I do. I will acknowledge there are certain subclasses and classses that do it faster, or take on higher caliber opponents such as ^^ and ^ mobs but I do quite well and have solod almost all my xp to 45.</P> <P>It's a matter of thinking around how mob's behave and trying to work that to your advantage. Taking all their power, raising your agil stats into the stratosphere so your avoidance stays really high, applying debuffs whenever you can and keeping them on to help avoid some damage are all parts of how an enchanter solos. You wont be nuking the stuffing out of anything and at best in some parts of the avoidance curve you will scarecly be able to take on the lowest of the low green ^^ but you can do ok if your vigilant. /shrug</P>

[Twobox]

<P>In all honesty - as things stand today - there is no reason to play an Illusionist.</P> <P>The posts above have looked at the bright side and, in theory, their points have some merit. But in practice, they do not. Here's the reality:</P> <P><STRONG><U>Power Regen: One of two key Illusionist skills in EQ2.</U></STRONG></P> <P>Very useful in exp groups . . . provided your "puller" will work at maximum speed. If he does then you are needed once every 15 minutes. If he doesn't, they won't notice if you go AFK and AF on the healer. </P> <P>Very useful in Raids . . . except there are 24 slots and only one Illusionist is needed for this role (see Mezz and DPS below). So, if you want to raid, make sure you are the only Illusionist/Coercer in your Guild <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Which you probably will be, because no one wants to play an Illusionist</P> <P><STRONG><U>Mezz: One of two key Enchanter skills in EQ1.</U></STRONG></P> <P>There are many powers and weapons that break mezz. And each player has so many powers that FEW players know which ones do and which don't. Of those who DO know, even fewer care. Of those who care, most will insist you only mezz the key mob in an encounter, or Mobs #4 and higher in a cluster-frag.</P> <P>Admittedly, there are a couple of raids that are made possible/easier by mezzing a key mob or two. However, these do NOT include your group mezz which is virtually completely useless since it breaks when one mob is damaged <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And they do not include those where the script calls for a group of adds periodically throughout the encounter. Your raid must have a plan for killing the adds while keeping the Boss aggro'd on the MT, and that secondary group can handle things quite well without you.</P> <P>You do the math and figure out how often you will be mezzing.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Charm: The second key Enchanter Skill in EQ1.</U></STRONG></P> <P>Does not exist in EQ2.</P> <P><STRONG><U>DPS</U></STRONG></P> <P>At level 50, you will top out at about 40 DPS.  FYI, that's a little higher than a Cleric meleeing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>However, since most of your damage comes from DoTs, you will need longish fights to achieve this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Illusionists do have nice AEs, but there are three problems. First, they are mana-inefficient, and a good AE fight is about the only way an Illusionist with Invoker/GEBs can run out of power. Second, they have relatively long recast timers. Third,  while your level 50 AE spell is nice, you can't use it on Epic mobs since it contains additional effects that are not allowed against those mobs.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Group Invis: The second key Enchanter skill in EQ2</U></STRONG></P> <P>You have the best group invis, one without any movement penalty.</P> <P>So I guess I'd modify my opening remark: Y<STRONG>ou should play an Illusionist if you enjoy casting a power regen buff every 15 minutes, want to be the designated invisible driver, and hate raids.</STRONG> </P> <P>Stay tuned for an update after the "combat revamp".</P> <P>Hawke - 50 Illusionist, Guk</P> <P>Swift - 50 Swashbuckler, Guk</P> <P>Assorted other 20-30 alts positioned for the "combat revamp"</P>

[zit]

<P>Best qualities of illusionist?</P> <P>Best qualities are not much use if they not needed.</P> <P>I am more interested in what do groups consider the best qualities an illusionist brings to the party cause that will be what actually has some value.</P> <P>My personal experience lvl 40+ why groups that dont know me and have not grouped with me before, would invite me just because i am an illusionist:</P> <P>Most important reason for invite: group invis.</P> <P>Second reason: power regen / main reason on raids.</P> <P> </P> <P>So I come pretty much to the same conclusion as the poster above:</P> <P>At lvl 40+ i have 2 spells that are good enough to get me a spot in a group/raid.</P> <P>its 2 SPELLS, not 2 abilities or role in group.</P> <P>its not cause of buffing abilities in general, or utility in general, or dps in general, or tanking ability in general, or healing in general. its reduced to 2 SPELLS. i could delete all others and the group wouldnt really mind, most time not even notice. Actually at some raids i get asked to not do anything beside casting breeze cause they dont want risk that i draw agro.</P> <P>ever thought how other classes would feel if they got redcued to 2 BUTTONS? scouts to evac and auto attack maybe?</P> <P>I think this is what is the hardest to understand for other classes when enchanter complain about not having much fun or having a boring job. </P>

[Hermex D'illusionai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twobox wrote:<BR> <P>In all honesty - as things stand today - there is no reason to play an Illusionist.</P> <P>The posts above have looked at the bright side and, in theory, their points have some merit. But in practice, they do not. Here's the reality:</P> <P><STRONG><U>Power Regen: One of two key Illusionist skills in EQ2.</U></STRONG></P> <P>Very useful in exp groups . . . provided your "puller" will work at maximum speed. If he does then you are needed once every 15 minutes. If he doesn't, they won't notice if you go AFK and AF on the healer. </P> <P>Very useful in Raids . . . except there are 24 slots and only one Illusionist is needed for this role (see Mezz and DPS below). So, if you want to raid, make sure you are the only Illusionist/Coercer in your Guild <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Which you probably will be, because no one wants to play an Illusionist</P> <P><STRONG><U>Mezz: One of two key Enchanter skills in EQ1.</U></STRONG></P> <P>There are many powers and weapons that break mezz. And each player has so many powers that FEW players know which ones do and which don't. Of those who DO know, even fewer care. Of those who care, most will insist you only mezz the key mob in an encounter, or Mobs #4 and higher in a cluster-frag.</P> <P>Admittedly, there are a couple of raids that are made possible/easier by mezzing a key mob or two. However, these do NOT include your group mezz which is virtually completely useless since it breaks when one mob is damaged <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And they do not include those where the script calls for a group of adds periodically throughout the encounter. Your raid must have a plan for killing the adds while keeping the Boss aggro'd on the MT, and that secondary group can handle things quite well without you.</P> <P>You do the math and figure out how often you will be mezzing.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Charm: The second key Enchanter Skill in EQ1.</U></STRONG></P> <P>Does not exist in EQ2.</P> <P><STRONG><U>DPS</U></STRONG></P> <P>At level 50, you will top out at about 40 DPS.  FYI, that's a little higher than a Cleric meleeing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>However, since most of your damage comes from DoTs, you will need longish fights to achieve this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Illusionists do have nice AEs, but there are three problems. First, they are mana-inefficient, and a good AE fight is about the only way an Illusionist with Invoker/GEBs can run out of power. Second, they have relatively long recast timers. Third,  while your level 50 AE spell is nice, you can't use it on Epic mobs since it contains additional effects that are not allowed against those mobs.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Group Invis: The second key Enchanter skill in EQ2</U></STRONG></P> <P>You have the best group invis, one without any movement penalty.</P> <P>So I guess I'd modify my opening remark: Y<STRONG>ou should play an Illusionist if you enjoy casting a power regen buff every 15 minutes, want to be the designated invisible driver, and hate raids.</STRONG> </P> <P>Stay tuned for an update after the "combat revamp".</P> <P>Hawke - 50 Illusionist, Guk</P> <P>Swift - 50 Swashbuckler, Guk</P> <P>Assorted other 20-30 alts positioned for the "combat revamp"</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>While I agree with much of what you say, the 40dps assertion is probably low. Heck nightmare alone should do 40dps if you stack all 4 stackables + the scrorching beam DoT your gonna be way over 40dps I think ... Course you would have to have the time to stack all 4 or 5 and that requires very high con ^^ or epics but it is conceivable to be significantly over 40 dps with and Illusionist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to admit, I have never actually parsed this but Nightmare procs quite often and does so more when you have multiple DoT's stacked as you get more attack rolls for each tick of DoT and the damage per tick of my adept 3 is close to if not 80+ with the procs being 70'ish. I have seen it proc for all 5 DoT's meaning one tick you get 70'sh x 5 + the tick damage /shrug. Furthermore I haven't even included the pet attacks which could be stacked on top of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a lot of work to maximize Illusionist DPS and it can only be done on mobs which are gonna be a decent length battle but I'm next to positive it will be way over 40dps if your using all your tools and keeping them up. It's never gonna be mad DPS like a warlock but it should be ok.</DIV>

[Nupr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Twobox wrote:<div></div> <p><strong><u>Group Invis: The second key Enchanter skill in EQ2</u></strong></p> <p>You have the best group invis, one without any movement penalty.</p><hr></blockquote> Just thought I'd clarify that statement.  It's truly open to debate who has the better invis.  Furies have a shorter cast, shorter recast group invis that doesn't break on falling damage and has a further radius. Their duration is only 10 minutes.  And if movement is a factor they can SoW ya before they activate it, but their spell has no movement penalty either.  I would say our group invis is definitely better than rogues, but I'd trade with a Fury in a heartbeat.</span><div></div>

[Twobox]

<P>To Nupren:</P> <P>Aye, saying our invis is the best in the game is an overstatement for which I apologize. Sad to say, tho, its one of our most in-demand skills.</P> <P>To Hermex:</P> <P>I'd direct your attention to <A href="http://www.combatstats.com" target=_blank>www.combatstats.com</A>. The parser is easy to use. </P> <P>As an Illusionist, you will not hit 50 DPS. Many times you will be in the 30s. 40 DPS is a good number. </P> <P>For reference, my 50 Swash alt does 130 DPS routinely and probably averages 110 to 120 DPS. And remember Swashbucklers have the lowest DPS of all the other mages and scouts except the Bards who have buffs that more than make up for any shortfall they may have.</P> <P>It's a sad state of affairs, and I don't believe that giving Illusionists more mage-like DPS fixes the problem.</P>

[zit]

<P>Its my experience that different parsing programms will show different results, even 2 ppl using same parser can get slightly different results if their settings are different. </P> <P>To say lvl 50 illu will top out at 50 dps is a blank statement though. Would need to clarify the circumstances a bit. Is this meant with master spells? Or with average adept1? On green mobs? Or on high lvl raid encounter? Single target or group?</P> <P>In most situations i will not hit 50 dps or more, for different reasons. But i cannot say i top out at this. In some situations i get 90-100 dps even on single target mob (using combatstats). Which doesnt necessary mean much, cause the warden can hit 90 as well in same situation and guardian and every other class (besides templer maybe) will outdamage me, and not only slightly ...</P> <P>So its prolly more sound to give numbers in comparison to other classes than to give raw dps numbers. </P>

[Twobox]

<P>You are, of course, absolutely correct. Your DPS number will change depending on how slowly or how quickly your group kills the mob.</P> <P>What will not change, however, is (as you say) your ranking in the group over the long haul, and that's what my DPS references were meant to show.</P> <P>I'll stand by my 40 DPS number for Illusionists as a good general purpose estimate when used in the same context as a Swashy doing 120 DPS. Sometimes my Swashy has hit over 200 DPS when she attacks the mob virtually simultaneously with the puller, gets off her big CAs, and then the mob is killed.</P> <P>In that situation the Illusionist might hit 50 DPS <g>.</P> <P> </P>

[Count_Drakenkor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twobox wrote:<BR> <P>You are, of course, absolutely correct. Your DPS number will change depending on how slowly or how quickly your group kills the mob.</P> <P>What will not change, however, is (as you say) your ranking in the group over the long haul, and that's what my DPS references were meant to show.</P> <P>I'll stand by my 40 DPS number for Illusionists as a good general purpose estimate when used in the same context as a Swashy doing 120 DPS. Sometimes my Swashy has hit over 200 DPS when she attacks the mob virtually simultaneously with the puller, gets off her big CAs, and then the mob is killed.</P> <P>In that situation the Illusionist might hit 50 DPS .</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am not sure what Illusionists you have been playing with, but in grps my dps averages 100-125dps and on raid grp encounters(such as Zek) my dps is in the 200-220dps range.</P> <P>Also with the nerf/fix to incombat power regen, enchanters will become even more desirable in grps.</P> <P>You also failed to mention a few other very important spells. Illusionist have the highest haste in game at 66% at Master 1(stackable). Our debuffs and power drains in raids are some of our most powerful spells. Dismay and Mind Drain are probably the most cast in combat raid spells.</P>

[KaltenAlTh]

<P>I also do not believe these 200-220dps claims about illusionist.  Like Twobox I stand by the claim of an average of 40 DPS for Illusionists on raid mobs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please post a log showing a 10+ minutes raid fight with you doing that much DPS on a single mob.  While doing your other debuff responsibilities.</P> <P>I would honestly like to be proven wrong and learn what I'm not doing right.</P><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:41 AM</span>

[Count_Drakenkor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KaltenAlThor wrote:<BR> <P>I also do not believe these 200-220dps claims about illusionist.  Like Twobox I stand by the claim of an average of 40 DPS for Illusionists on raid mobs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please post a log showing a 10+ minutes raid fight with you doing that much DPS on a single mob.  While doing your other debuff responsibilities.</P> <P>I would honestly like to be proven wrong and learn what I'm not doing right.</P> <P>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <SPAN class=date_text>06-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:41 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I stated "on raid grp encounters(such as Zek) my dps is in the 200-220dps range."</DIV> <DIV>Encounters with multiple mobs ie, a ^^^ and a few ^^adds provides a great target for Illusionists AE's.</DIV> <DIV>The point being, in an encounter where our JOB is to be dps, we can fulfill that role(thought they are few).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I would be more than happy to provide you with a log and parse after our raids tonight. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Count_Drakenkorin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KaltenAlThor wrote:<BR> <P>I also do not believe these 200-220dps claims about illusionist.  Like Twobox I stand by the claim of an average of 40 DPS for Illusionists on raid mobs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please post a log showing a 10+ minutes raid fight with you doing that much DPS on a single mob.  While doing your other debuff responsibilities.</P> <P>I would honestly like to be proven wrong and learn what I'm not doing right.</P> <P>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <SPAN class=date_text>06-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:41 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I stated "on raid grp encounters(such as Zek) my dps is in the 200-220dps range."</DIV> <DIV>Encounters with multiple mobs ie, a ^^^ and a few ^^adds provides a great target for Illusionists AE's.</DIV> <DIV>The point being, in an encounter where our JOB is to be dps, we can fulfill that role(thought they are few).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I would be more than happy to provide you with a log and parse after our raids tonight. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My all time high on the zek raid for dps is 185'ish (with all my combat arts at adpet3) ... conversly the sorcerers in my guild are breaking 400 dkps on the same encounter and many of the melee classes are 250+.  What constitues high dps is relaitive on any raid, and 200 dps for illusionist definatly is NOT the norm on raids.  Nor is high compaired to other classes on the Zek raid.   </P> <P>Most raids my dps is in the 60 -80 dps range,  which is still more subtantial the the healers dps but much lower then nearly everyone elses.  <BR></P>

[Count_Drakenkor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Azamien-Dermorate wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Count_Drakenkorin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KaltenAlThor wrote:<BR> <P>I also do not believe these 200-220dps claims about illusionist.  Like Twobox I stand by the claim of an average of 40 DPS for Illusionists on raid mobs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please post a log showing a 10+ minutes raid fight with you doing that much DPS on a single mob.  While doing your other debuff responsibilities.</P> <P>I would honestly like to be proven wrong and learn what I'm not doing right.</P> <P>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <SPAN class=date_text>06-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:41 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I stated "on raid grp encounters(such as Zek) my dps is in the 200-220dps range."</DIV> <DIV>Encounters with multiple mobs ie, a ^^^ and a few ^^adds provides a great target for Illusionists AE's.</DIV> <DIV>The point being, in an encounter where our JOB is to be dps, we can fulfill that role(thought they are few).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I would be more than happy to provide you with a log and parse after our raids tonight. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My all time high on the zek raid for dps is 185'ish (with all my combat arts at adpet3) ... conversly the sorcerers in my guild are breaking 400 dkps on the same encounter and many of the melee classes are 250+.  What constitues high dps is relaitive on any raid, and 200 dps for illusionist definatly is NOT the norm on raids.  Nor is high compaired to other classes on the Zek raid.   </P> <P>Most raids my dps is in the 60 -80 dps range,  which is still more subtantial the the healers dps but much lower then nearly everyone elses.  <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are right, it is not the norm(and niether is 40 dps), and I never said it was. I simply stated what is possible. Yes Berserkers and Warlocks can hit 400+ dps and the conjurers are up there as well. But we do out dps the wizards in Zek(which in most raid encounters we dont).</P> <P>The amount of damage you do on any given raid depends on whether your class is needed as dps or utility.</P> <P>My point was, if dps is needed, illusoinist are capable of doing 100 on solo encounters and 200~ on grp.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[KaltenAlTh]

<DIV>Ok I see where your going.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i was comparing my single target encounter.  For instance i'd take the DPS I did on King Zalak after all his adds where dead and calculate the damge I did to him during the time it took us to kill him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you've done is looked at the DPS for an encounter where youre AE'ing all the time for the most part and thiers alot of targets to hit.  I bet you look at the warlock numbers for that same fight you get blown away on DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my Zalak example I'm always the lowest DPS (outside healers) on the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the example you give I bet your always the lowest DPS or at least close to the bottom (not counting healers)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's all relative to the encounter.  We are still at the bottom of the food chain just not as bad for AE fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I can go find a pack of 30 lvl 23 deer in TS and fire up color shower and look at the DPS for that too, it would be a huge number..... Maybe in the 1000's range /shrug.  Its not indicative of nearly all Raid Encounters though.</DIV></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:42 AM</span>

[Somna]

<div></div>I'm not sure what you are doing to get that low Kaltene, because on a mob like Tremblar--solo from start to finish so no tricks needed--I was getting 95.76 DPS from only using Gloom, Mespha's Torturous Visions, Wither Hope (Gloom and Wither Hope Adept 3), and Phantasmal Charge (Master 1).  Although I could see 40 DPS if you are the sole enchanter in raid and the fight started while you were buffing, or if all your nukes and DoTs were App 2. Edit: In that fight I was 11th out of 24 in DPS.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by Somna on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Twobox]

<P>Anyone who claims his Illusionist can hit 100+ dps in an experience-providing solo encounter is either full of it or needs a new parser. In such a solo fight, the DPS is not encounter-dependant, or group dependant.</P> <DIV>When talking about the Illusionist as a playable class, maybe you care but I personally don't care if there are a couple of special AE Raid encounters where an Illusionist can provide meaningful DPS. There's more to the game than those raids. The power cost of these spells is too high, the recast on Color Shower is far too long, and you cannot even TARGET certain mobs in the encounter to use CS. You have to target the trash. <STRONG>As was said above, Illusionist's are at the bottom of the DPSer's food chain.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Where they should be IF CROWD CONTROL WERE REQUIRED IN EQ2. But its not.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>It's like the EQ2 Illusionist's designer played EQ1, had trmendous phallic envy for Enchanters, and has now gotten even <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again, there are exceptions to everything, but  I'll stand by the relativity that Illusionists are at 40 DPS when Swashies are doing 120 dps. And the Swashie is not at the top of the DPS chain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even SOE agrees something significant must be done. What is shameful is they plan to increase DPS, not increase the need for crowd control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our great "Haste" spell . . . pffft.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you know what percentage of a melee toon's DPS come from their weapons? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A properly played Swashie in an experience grind gets about 15% of her damage ouput from weapons, 15% from poison, and 70% from combat arts. DPS obviously will shift away from CAs in raids when Power runs out, and overall DPS falls significantly as a result. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When Hawke Hastes Swift, DPS increases disappear in rounding (other contributing factors below). I'm sure other melee get a higher percentage from weapons . . . sheesh, they could hardly get less lol . . . but . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you know how many of the toons you buff use very fast weapons so the hard min delay cap trivializes your Haste's value?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you know how many toons can reach the delay cap using their own haste buffs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course you know you can't cast Haste on other groups in the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Great spell lol.</DIV>

[Pins]

2 things.To Somna, he's talking about the encounters before Trembler.And to twobox, there doesn't seem to be a cap on weapon speed as of now. Though they're talking about a haste cap sooo, expect that to be coming along soon enough, and make our haste even more of a joke.Oh and I hit about 135dps on average in a solo encounter by myself, so 100+ IS possible and easily attained. I've gone over my solo strategy in other threads, so I won't bore you with it again, but 100+ is possible, and easy to get(provided no resists) against solo mobs. Now in a group, 100+ is hard to get, unless it's a grop-style encounter.

[Somna]

<div></div><div></div>Or, Twobox, instead of blanketing everyone by insinuating that people who disagree with you are full of it, you would notice that the comments about ~100 DPS solo and ~200 DPS group were about <b>raid</b> mob encounters, and not solo encounters, and were in response to Kaltene's post above stating disbelief about chanters doing more than 40 DPS on <b>raid</b> mobs, thus derailing the overall topic to the current topic of chanter DPS in a raid encounter.  Illusionists don't pull a pathetic 40 DPS or lower on <b>raid</b> encounters unless they can't use most of their spells or are doing something incredibly distracting, because their dots actually have the time to do all their damage and, in Wither Hope/Nightmare's case, has a lot more chances to proc its effect.  Solo is a different story.  The only comments that were directed towards that have been people doubting it was only 40 DPS solo. Pinski: Kaltene was talking about DPS to only one mob, rather than a group. So I used Tremblar as an example because it is a solo raid encounter from beginning to end since all the other mobs in his zone are separate fights before him, and thus one of the easiest ways to check without having to untangle damage on other mobs. Edit: Typo correction <div></div><p>Message Edited by Somna on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span>

[Count_Drakenkor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twobox wrote:<BR> <P>Anyone who claims his Illusionist can hit 100+ dps in an experience-providing solo encounter is either full of it or needs a new parser. <FONT color=#ff0000>Its probably both! </FONT>In such a solo fight, the DPS is not encounter-dependant, or group dependant. <FONT color=#ff0000>Raid encounters bro!</FONT></P> <DIV>When talking about the Illusionist as a playable class, maybe you care but I personally don't care if there are a couple of special AE Raid encounters where an Illusionist can provide meaningful DPS. <FONT color=#ff0000>Most raid encounters I am debuffing/rebuffing more than DPS. But when the rare occasion comes that my role is as a DPS player, no problem.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV>There's more to the game than those raids. <FONT color=#ff0000>Since when?</FONT> The power cost of these spells is too high, the recast on Color Shower is far too long, and you cannot even TARGET certain mobs in the encounter to use CS. <FONT color=#ff0000>Doesnt take a genious to figure out how to get around that problem! </FONT>You have to target the trash. <STRONG>As was said above, Illusionist's are at the bottom of the DPSer's food chain.  </STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Where they should be IF CROWD CONTROL WERE REQUIRED IN EQ2. But its not.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Is this a sentence? And I dont know about you, but I have found plenty of things to do with my power when mezzing is not required.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>It's like the EQ2 Illusionist's designer played EQ1, had trmendous phallic envy for Enchanters, and has now gotten even <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again, there are exceptions to everything, but  I'll stand by the relativity that Illusionists are at 40 DPS when Swashies are doing 120 dps. And the Swashie is not at the top of the DPS chain.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>You are comparing the dps of a class whos job is to provide dps vs a class that uses utility spells. We should not be able to do as much as a swash. We could probably get more info comparing the Space Shuttle Columbia to a garbage truck.  As far as the 40 dps goes.....send me a tell in game guk.drakenkorin, hopefully we can work together to find out why your dps sucks so bad.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even SOE agrees something significant must be done. What is shameful is they plan to increase DPS, not increase the need for crowd control.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Our dps is a bit low, but its nothing to kill yourself over. I dont forsee CC becoming too essential unless they do away with locked encounters(dont hold your breath). It is now and will remain a relatively useful utility spell.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our great "Haste" spell . . . pffft.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you know what percentage of a melee toon's DPS come from their weapons? </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>What is this "melee" you speak of?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>I thought not.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Doesnt look like you thought of anything before posting this....</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A properly played Swashie in an experience grind gets about 15% of her damage ouput from weapons, 15% from poison, and 70% from combat arts. DPS obviously will shift away from CAs in raids when Power runs out, and overall DPS falls significantly as a result. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When Hawke Hastes Swift, DPS increases disappear in rounding (other contributing factors below). I'm sure other melee get a higher percentage from weapons . . . sheesh, they could hardly get less lol . . . but . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you know how many of the toons you buff use very fast weapons so the hard min delay cap trivializes your Haste's value?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>A lot of skilled players know to take advantage of the high dmg/delay 2h wpns so they can utilise the haste to try and reach the min delay.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Do you know how many toons can reach the delay cap using their own haste buffs?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Well aware, but not all of them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course you know you can't cast Haste on other groups in the raid.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>OMG, YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY RIGHT!  I AGREE 100% it can only be cast in group!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Great spell lol.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000>I enjoy playing an Illusionist. It is not perfect, but only time will tell if things are going to get better or worse.</FONT> <BR> <p>Message Edited by Count_Drakenkorin on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 PM</span>

[Hermex D'illusionai]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> To Hermex: <P>I'd direct your attention to <A href="http://www.combatstats.com/" target=_blank>www.combatstats.com</A>. The parser is easy to use. </P> <P>As an Illusionist, you will not hit 50 DPS. Many times you will be in the 30s. 40 DPS is a good number. </P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>I'll stand by my 40 DPS number for Illusionists as a good general purpose estimate when used in the same context as a Swashy doing 120 DPS. Sometimes my Swashy has hit over 200 DPS when she attacks the mob virtually simultaneously with the puller, gets off her big CAs, and then the mob is killed.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm aware of the parser. I have had people in my group with it and even thought about getting it myself, but 2 things; Parsers only pick up what your in range to get and parsers are only as good as the information you have them set to collect garbage-in garbage-out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did something that might interest you. I got all the spell descriptions of the current DoT's I use and ran a by hand simulation of their effectiveness. Let me set the table for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 45 I am currently using and almost always apply in this order: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Meshpa's Torturous Visions (level 40 T&T upgrade with a 5% chance to reduce dps by 33% and lowers agil of the target)</DIV> <DIV>It stats are the following:</DIV> <DIV>Casting time: 2.0</DIV> <DIV>Recovery: .5</DIV> <DIV>Duration: 25 sec</DIV> <DIV>Init damage: 60</DIV> <DIV>per tick: 60 every 4.1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wither Hope Adpet III</DIV> <DIV>Casting: 2.0</DIV> <DIV>recovery: .5</DIV> <DIV>Duration: 24 sec</DIV> <DIV>Init Damage: 80-97</DIV> <DIV>per tick: 80-97 every 4.8</DIV> <DIV>With a 15% chance to proc 80 damage every time you successfully attack the target (This includes ticks of other DoT's you have stacked though the proc can be resisted where the ticks of the DoT once successfully applied cannot)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Koldhagon's Bolt of Lethargy</DIV> <DIV>Casting: 2.0</DIV> <DIV>recovery: .5</DIV> <DIV>Duration: 24 sec</DIV> <DIV>Init Damage: 48-60</DIV> <DIV>per tick: 48-60 every 4.8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cerebral Spam Adept III</DIV> <DIV>Casting: 1.0</DIV> <DIV>recovery: .5</DIV> <DIV>Duration: 24 sec</DIV> <DIV>Init Damage:19-24</DIV> <DIV>per tick: 30-35 every 4.0</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scorching Beam Adept 1</DIV> <DIV>Casting 3.0</DIV> <DIV>recovery.5</DIV> <DIV>recast: 12</DIV> <DIV>Init damage: 275-335 mental + 73-89 heat</DIV> <DIV>duration: 16 sec</DIV> <DIV>pet tick: 73-89 every 5.3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I did was run everything through ONE course of applying all 5 spells. I did NOT figure in the procs from Wither Hope. I did NOT add the pet which stands for 1min 12 secs. I did NOT reapply the DoT's when they wore off  this was just a one course application from when the first one hits to when the last one expires. Where there was a range of damage I took the lowest number.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the spells will be refered to by letter after the initial cast corresponding letters in parenthesis. Each tick of a spells DoT will have the corresponding number next to it explained as #1, #2, #3 etc. This run through also theorizes perfect queueing one after the other and no resists by way of it's timing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Spell Casted/ Tick                         Elapsed Time                  Damage Done this tick                           Cummulative damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Meshpas (M)                                  0 sec                               60                                                              60</DIV> <DIV>Wither Hope (W)                           2.5 sec                             80                                                              140</DIV> <DIV>M#1                                                 4.1 sec                             60                                                              200</DIV> <DIV>Koldhagon's(K)                              5.0 sec                             48                                                              2 48</DIV> <DIV>Cerebral Spasm (C)                      6.5 sec                             19                                                              267</DIV> <DIV>W#1                                                7.3 sec                             80                                                              347</DIV> <DIV>M#2                                                 8.2 sec                             60                                                              407</DIV> <DIV>K#1                                                 9.8 sec                             48                                                              4 55</DIV> <DIV>Scorching Beam (S)                    10.0 sec                      275+73 = 348                                                  803</DIV> <DIV>C#1                                               10.5 sec                            30                                                              833</DIV> <DIV>W#2                                              1 2.1 sec                            80                                                              913</DIV> <DIV>M#3                                                12.3 sec                            60                                                              973</DIV> <DIV>(<FONT color=#33ccff>note at the very latest the pet "could" be completed casting at 13 sec so it's DPS would start figuring here</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>though I'm guessing it would have been best to open with the pet to maximize the DPS string since it's duration</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>is the longest at 1 min 12 secs and I expect it's tick is the fastest though I might be wrong about that</FONT>)</DIV> <DIV>C#2                                                14.5 sec                            30                                                            1003</DIV> <DIV>K#2                                                14.6 sec                            48                                                            1051</DIV> <DIV>S#1                                                15.3 sec                            73                                                            1124</DIV> <DIV>M#4                                                16.4 sec                            60                                                            1184</DIV> <DIV>W#3                                              1 6.9 sec                            80                                                            1264</DIV> <DIV>C#3                                                18.5 sec                            30                                                            1294</DIV> <DIV>K#3                                                19.4 sec                            48                                                            1342</DIV> <DIV>M#5                                              2 0.5 sec                            60                                                             1402</DIV> <DIV>S#2                                              20.6 sec                            73                                                             1475</DIV> <DIV>W#4                                            21. 7 sec                             80                                                             1555</DIV> <DIV>C#4                                             22 .5 sec                             30                                                             1585</DIV> <DIV>K#4                                             24.2 sec                             48                                                             1633</DIV> <DIV>M#6 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                            24.6 sec                              60                                                             1693</DIV> <DIV>S#3 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                            25.9 sec                             73                                                             1766</DIV> <DIV>C#5                                            26. 5 sec                             30                                                             1796</DIV> <DIV>W#5 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                           26.5 sec                             80                                                             1876</DIV> <DIV>K#5 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                            28.3 sec                             48                                                             1924</DIV> <DIV>C#6 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                            <FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG><EM><U>30.5 sec</U></EM></STRONG></FONT>                             30                                                             <FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG><EM><U>1954</U></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>So what do we know here ? We know that whiel figuring on the low end of the scale of range of possible damage we can do and without figuring procs, pets, or mitigations of the target we CAN parse out at an average of 1954/30.5 = 64. 04 DPS. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets deal with mitigations forgetting that I've already taken the lowest portion of any damage range for the spells and lets say mitigation is 20% for the mob in question. We know that Witherhope, Koldhagon's, and Cerebral Spasm are going to lower that but lets still stake for the worst and say 20% total comes off the final damage number. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1954 - 391 = 1563/ 30.5 = 49.61 DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's still 9 points higher than your claim of 40 even and that people stretching to 50 would be next to impossible. Furthermore, All this is without the procs from Wither Hope which are abundant. I counted 23 successful attacks in that sequence in which Wither Hope has a 15% chance to proc for another 80 points. While each attack is it's own chance, you could never proc or you could proc every time depending on how lucky or unlucky you are at your random number generator. 23 x 80 would be a HUGE upgrade to DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also did not figure in the possible pet damage, I did not add the expiring DoT's back on  the list till the last one had expired, nor did I figure in any pure DD spells or HOs while all the DoT's were running their course /shrug. I think it is highly conceivable for an Illusionist to figure to around 100 DPS if he is using every tool in his arsenal and being vigilant about keeping them on. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think your parser is broken, you don't have it set right, your not in range to get all the damage done in the chat scroll, your fighting content that is incredibly resistant to mental damage or something. </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Hermex D'illusionaire on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 PM</span>

[KaltenAlTh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hermex D'illusionaire wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Spell Casted/ Tick                         Elapsed Time                  Damage Done this tick                           Cummulative damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Meshpas (M)                                  0 sec                               60                                                              60</DIV> <DIV>Wither Hope (W)                           2.5 sec                             80                                                              140</DIV> <DIV>M#1                                                 4.1 sec                             60                                                              200</DIV> <DIV>Koldhagon's(K)                              5.0 sec                             48                                                              2 48</DIV> <DIV>Cerebral Spasm (C)                      6.5 sec                             19                                                              267</DIV> <DIV>W#1                                                7.3 sec                             80                                                              347</DIV> <DIV>M#2                                                 8.2 sec                             60                                                              407</DIV> <DIV>K#1                                                 9.8 sec                             48                                                              4 55</DIV> <DIV>Scorching Beam (S)                    10.0 sec                      275+73 = 348                                                  803</DIV> <DIV>C#1                                               10.5 sec                            30                                                              833</DIV> <DIV>W#2                                              1 2.1 sec                            80                                                              913</DIV> <DIV>M#3                                                12.3 sec                            60                                                              973</DIV> <DIV>(<FONT color=#33ccff>note at the very latest the pet "could" be completed casting at 13 sec so it's DPS would start figuring here</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>though I'm guessing it would have been best to open with the pet to maximize the DPS string since it's duration</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>is the longest at 1 min 12 secs and I expect it's tick is the fastest though I might be wrong about that</FONT>)</DIV> <DIV>C#2                                                14.5 sec                            30                                                            1003</DIV> <DIV>K#2                                                14.6 sec                            48                                                            1051</DIV> <DIV>S#1                                                15.3 sec                            73                                                            1124</DIV> <DIV>M#4                                                16.4 sec                            60                                                            1184</DIV> <DIV>W#3                                              1 6.9 sec                            80                                                            1264</DIV> <DIV>C#3                                                18.5 sec                            30                                                            1294</DIV> <DIV>K#3                                                19.4 sec                            48                                                            1342</DIV> <DIV>M#5                                              2 0.5 sec                            60                                                             1402</DIV> <DIV>S#2                                              20.6 sec                            73                                                             1475</DIV> <DIV>W#4                                            21. 7 sec                             80                                                             1555</DIV> <DIV>C#4                                             22 .5 sec                             30                                                             1585</DIV> <DIV>K#4                                             24.2 sec                             48                                                             1633</DIV> <DIV>M#6 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                            24.6 sec                              60                                                             1693</DIV> <DIV>S#3 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                            25.9 sec                             73                                                             1766</DIV> <DIV>C#5                                            26. 5 sec                             30                                                             1796</DIV> <DIV>W#5 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                           26.5 sec                             80                                                             1876</DIV> <DIV>K#5 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                            28.3 sec                             48                                                             1924</DIV> <DIV>C#6 (<FONT color=#ffff00>elapses</FONT>)                            <FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG><EM><U>30.5 sec</U></EM></STRONG></FONT>                             30                                                             <FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG><EM><U>1954</U></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>So what do we know here ? We know that whiel figuring on the low end of the scale of range of possible damage we can do and without figuring procs, pets, or mitigations of the target we CAN parse out at an average of 1954/30.5 = 64. 04 DPS. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets deal with mitigations forgetting that I've already taken the lowest portion of any damage range for the spells and lets say mitigation is 20% for the mob in question. We know that Witherhope, Koldhagon's, and Cerebral Spasm are going to lower that but lets still stake for the worst and say 20% total comes off the final damage number. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1954 - 391 = 1563/ 30.5 = 49.61 DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's a wonderful chart. It illustrates well the theoretical maximum that we could get but doesn't reflect reality a whole lot.</P> <P>To interject a bit more "real life" (can I say that about a game?) I'd suggest the following. </P> <OL> <LI>You should probally factor out the Meshpa's Torturous Visions. This is not a spell we all have, not everyone took that option. </LI> <LI>Same thing with Koldhagon's Bolt of Lethargy, not a spell everyone has. </LI> <LI>You do not start doing damage at 0 seconds, you start doing it at 2 seconds the time it takes you to cast your first spell so add +2seconds. </LI> <LI>You've stopped counting damage at the absolute maximum of when your dots finish off, that's just not realistic because in most fights theirs a little bit of a lull in the time it takes to re-apply the buffs or overlap such that you are wasting a tick or 2. Id suggest adding 2 seconds (total of 4 now) to account for this. </LI> <LI>Lag, even though we can stack up spell casts there is quite often a lag in the time it takes to cast the next spell do to the time it takes the client and servers to sync up. As such it makes good sense to add say 1 second (total of 5 now) over all those casts you did for the possibility of lag.</LI> <LI>What about compete spell resists?</LI> <LI>Ffizzles?  Gotta factor those in right?</LI></OL> <P>p.s. nice job thinking to start the second spell at 2.5 seconds instead of 2.0. Most people would not have though of the .5 recovery time. </P> <P>So I can quickly take care of # 3,4 and 5 for you but for the sake of me not wanting to do to much math I won’t adjust for #1, 2, 6 and 7. Maybe you could do it for us?</P> <P>Add 5 seconds to your 30.5 so 35.5</P> <P>1563/ 35.5 = 44.02 DPS</P> <P> </P> <P>So, I’ve claimed 40 DPS is typical.  All the logs I’ve done show 40'ish dps, a few higher, most lower. You’re saying I might get to 50. WooPee Ding Dong! We should not be splitting hairs between is it 40 or 50. We should be working together to document what we currently have and make our case to be raised on the DPS class order food chain.  (I don't think the combat revamp is going to raise us enough) We need to be at a higher level then all tanks, maybe all scouts too and behind all other Mage types. Again I maintain that the high levels of DPS your are talking about are few and very far between. Normally we are not doing AE, Normally we are not in "pure dps mode"; we are casting de-buffs, buffs ect.</P> <P>Our dots need to be A LOT more damage and last A LOT longer so that we can DoT and get on to our de-buffs and buffing.   Not a 50% increase to dot damage so we do 60dps, not a 100% increase so we do 80dps, we need a 300% increase so we have the potential to do 120dps with dots.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>06-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 AM</span>

[Pins]

That's theoritical damage at Lv45 with just dots. Since when do we just use our dots? Okay, I know I don't use my pet, but that's because of breeze+pet aggro. But Toss in the nukes in that cycle. Easily higher dps.On a raid, there are 2 times when I get aggro. The adds that spawn aggro me(breeze agro!) or I use my pet, dismay, and mind drain during the fight.

[Hermex D'illusionai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KaltenAlThor wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>That's a wonderful chart. It illustrates well the theoretical maximum that we could get but doesn't reflect reality a whole lot.</P> <P>To interject a bit more "real life" (can I say that about a game?) I'd suggest the following.</P> <OL> <LI>You should probally factor out the Meshpa's Torturous Visions. This is not a spell we all have, not everyone took that option.</LI> <LI>Same thing with Koldhagon's Bolt of Lethargy, not a spell everyone has.</LI> <LI>You do not start doing damage at 0 seconds, you start doing it at 2 seconds the time it takes you to cast your first spell so add +2seconds.</LI> <LI>You've stopped counting damage at the absolute maximum of when your dots finish off, that's just not realistic because in most fights theirs a little bit of a lull in the time it takes to re-apply the buffs or overlap such that you are wasting a tick or 2. Id suggest adding 2 seconds (total of 4 now) to account for this.</LI> <LI>Lag, even though we can stack up spell casts there is quite often a lag in the time it takes to cast the next spell do to the time it takes the client and servers to sync up. As such it makes good sense to add say 1 second (total of 5 now) over all those casts you did for the possibility of lag.</LI> <LI>What about compete spell resists?</LI> <LI>Ffizzles?  Gotta factor those in right?</LI></OL> <P>p.s. nice job thinking to start the second spell at 2.5 seconds instead of 2.0. Most people would not have though of the .5 recovery time.</P> <P>So I can quickly take care of # 3,4 and 5 for you but for the sake of me not wanting to do to much math I won’t adjust for #1, 2, 6 and 7. Maybe you could do it for us?</P> <P>Add 5 seconds to your 30.5 so 35.5</P> <P>1563/ 35.5 = 44.02 DPS</P> <P> </P> <P>So, I’ve claimed 40 DPS is typical.  All the logs I’ve done show 40'ish dps, a few higher, most lower. You’re saying I might get to 50. WooPee Ding Dong! We should not be splitting hairs between is it 40 or 50. We should be working together to document what we currently have and make our case to be raised on the DPS class order food chain.  (I don't think the combat revamp is going to raise us enough) We need to be at a higher level then all tanks, maybe all scouts too and behind all other Mage types. Again I maintain that the high levels of DPS your are talking about are few and very far between. Normally we are not doing AE, Normally we are not in "pure dps mode"; we are casting de-buffs, buffs ect.</P> <P>Our dots need to be A LOT more damage and last A LOT longer so that we can DoT and get on to our de-buffs and buffing.   Not a 50% increase to dot damage so we do 60dps, not a 100% increase so we do 80dps, we need a 300% increase so we have the potential to do 120dps with dots.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <SPAN class=date_text>06-30-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:14 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Couple of things to point out Kalten.</P> <P>This was a theoretical MINIMUM actually. Again, I took the smallest possible values from any damage range and even bothered to figure in a 20% mitigation in getting to the 49.whatever figure, which I believe to be overstated considering how much mitigation against mental damage our spells take off. I also did not figure in any potential procs from Wither Hope /shrug</P> <OL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>You should probally factor out the Meshpa's Torturous Visions. This is not a spell we all have, not everyone took that option. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Same thing with Koldhagon's Bolt of Lethargy, not a spell everyone has.</FONT></LI></OL> <P>#1&2) I understand that many people won't take koldhagon's or meshpas but you WILL get lobotomize and gloom which also stack in and I bet an adept3 of those do similar damage without the secondary effect the T&T offers.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You do not start doing damage at 0 seconds, you start doing it at 2 seconds the time it takes you to cast your first spell so add +2seconds.</FONT></P> <P>#3) Actually you do start doing damage at 0 sec. The time to cast your first spell is not figured into the combat sequence as a mob will not attack you back until it has been damaged, and it will be with the first hit of the DoT. NOT when you start casting it.</P> <P> <FONT color=#ffff00>You've stopped counting damage at the absolute maximum of when your dots finish off, that's just not realistic because in most fights theirs a little bit of a lull in the time it takes to re-apply the buffs or overlap such that you are wasting a tick or 2. Id suggest adding 2 seconds (total of 4 now) to account for this.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>#4)  While very true, I did mention that this would be a once through stacking of 4 dot's and 1 dd/dot. I NEVER reapplied anyting in that list. There is a decent amount of time in there with which to reapply Wither Hope or Meshpas/Lobotomize to bring the total damage done within that time frame even higher. I don't see how adding a couple seconds is germain to when they expire, this is a theoretical model and cannot account for human error in queueing the DoT's, Fizzles, or resists and basically said as much. I have, on many occasions, turned out almost this vey exact sequence though and it can be done in THIS amount of time given the right circumstances. </FONT></P> <OL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Lag, even though we can stack up spell casts there is quite often a lag in the time it takes to cast the next spell do to the time it takes the client and servers to sync up. As such it makes good sense to add say 1 second (total of 5 now) over all those casts you did for the possibility of lag.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>What about compete spell resists?</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Ffizzles?  Gotta factor those in right?</FONT></LI></OL> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>#5,6, &7) Yep I did not figure in lag, resists, or fizzles. I said as much in the write up. They are not significant factors in figuring the POTENTIAL. Yes you could easily fizzle a yellow/orange/white spell and that lowers the potential, you could also just as easily have the spells resisted that also lowers the potential. There will still be the potential to LAND and NOT FIZZLE all of these spells in sucession on an uncrowded night with very little or no noticable lag in which you can and will do this type of damage. </FONT></P> <P>At 50 the last 2 spells will actually be more powerfull under the current system and as pinski above points out I never bothered to figure in any DD which you have as I estimate about 20 seconds to use anuerysm, phantsmal to your hearts content to balloon the total damage pool.</P> <P>Also at 50 you'll have the AE DoT which will SIGNIFICANTLY raise the DPS mark as your now doing damage to multiple mobs on one tick. Not to mention that you could be doing AE DD's on other mobs that might be grouped with this theoretical mob I've made that would again significantly raise the over-all dps. </P> <P>I also did not figure in any HO damage that we regularly use when soloing. </P> <P>I also did not figure in the pet damage that is a descernable possibility.</P> <P>I was simply trying to point out that it is not beyond the realm of possibility for our class to bump into the 100 dps range and probably more given the right set of circumstances.</P> <P>I have parsed out with combat stats over 80 in a small group of 3 fighting ^^ mobs one a lot more than one occaison and that was not using all my tools.</P> <P>P.S> the guy parsing was using combatstats. </P> <P>Thanks for complimenting the chart it took a while to build /chuckle.  <BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Hermex D'illusionaire on <span class=date_text>06-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

[KaltenAlTh]

<DIV>Show us a log, other then that best of luck to you.  I'm glad to see you like your illusionist so much.</DIV><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>06-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:38 PM</span>

[Hermex D'illusionai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KaltenAlThor wrote:<BR> <DIV>Show us a log, other then that best of luck to you.  I'm glad to see you like your illusionist so much.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <SPAN class=date_text>06-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:38 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Don't have a log to show ya atm I'll work on it. Meanwhile, I never said I like my "Illusionist so much". </P> <P>I do think, either the game needs to be re-tooled to make our CC capabilities a more needed item or we need to have a DPS upgrade to bring us in line with the realities of the content we face. For a very light armor wearing class we do too little damage I would agree.</P> <P>I was just pointing out that we can do more damage than most people think we can including some who actually play the sub-class. /shrug.</P>

[KaltenAlTh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hermex D'illusionaire wrote:<BR> <P>I do think, either the game needs to be re-tooled to make our CC capabilities a more needed item or we need to have a DPS upgrade to bring us in line with the realities of the content we face. For a very light armor wearing class we do too little damage I would agree.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm glad to see we agree on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Hermex D'illusionai]

<DIV>Ok, so I cracked and downloaded combatstats. I don't see much necessity for these tools but hey some people REALLY love to see what is happening for post-combat analysis. I spose I'm more of the person that is just interested in whether the mob is dead and I'm not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, you want logs we got em. I went to Everfrost and picked out some ice-wolves mainly because they last a little bit and are soloable for me with ease. I used my normal old style of solo play and didn't tinker with the parser except to set the end trigger to experience gain. I got about 12 or 13 fights in for a fair averaging and here's what I parsed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Started End Duration Group Damage Inflicted Group Damage Taken Group DPS My DPS Group Roster Hostile Targets <BR>07/01/05 01:47:33 PM 07/01/05 01:48:04 PM 00:00:31       2,114         603      66.06      66.06 hermex an ice wolf, an ice wolf pup <BR>07/01/05 01:48:40 PM 07/01/05 01:49:10 PM 00:00:30       3,040         317      98.06      98.06 hermex an ice wolf <BR>07/01/05 01:51:42 PM 07/01/05 01:52:29 PM 00:00:47       3,494         459      72.79      72.79 hermex an ice wolf <BR>07/01/05 01:53:52 PM 07/01/05 01:54:24 PM 00:00:32       3,461         858     104.88     104.88 hermex an ice wolf <BR>07/01/05 01:56:07 PM 07/01/05 01:56:38 PM 00:00:31       3,479         441     108.72     108.72 hermex an ice wolf <BR>07/01/05 01:57:45 PM 07/01/05 01:58:09 PM 00:00:24       2,089         485      83.56      83.56 hermex an ice wolf pup <BR>07/01/05 01:58:20 PM 07/01/05 01:58:49 PM 00:00:29       2,915         391      97.17      97.17 hermex an ice wolf <BR>07/01/05 02:00:52 PM 07/01/05 02:01:17 PM 00:00:25       2,231         391      85.81      85.81 hermex an ice wolf pup <BR>07/01/05 02:01:28 PM 07/01/05 02:02:02 PM 00:00:34       3,185         603      91.00      91.00 hermex an ice wolf <BR>07/01/05 02:04:22 PM 07/01/05 02:05:15 PM 00:00:53       3,520         806      <FONT color=#33ccff>65.19      65.19</FONT> hermex an ice wolf <BR>07/01/05 02:06:37 PM 07/01/05 02:07:15 PM 00:00:38       2,714       1,370      69.59      69.59 hermex an ice wolf pup <BR>07/01/05 02:07:15 PM 07/01/05 02:07:27 PM 00:00:12       1,110         149      85.38      85.38 hermex an ice wolf pup <BR>07/01/05 02:07:42 PM 07/01/05 02:08:10 PM 00:00:28       3,164         253     <FONT color=#ff3300>109.10     109.10</FONT> hermex an ice wolf <BR></DIV> <DIV>As you can see the totals are far higher than even the theoretical yields I was comming up with. I fizzled a few spells was interrupted a few times. I even had a resist or two.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is how the damage cracked down by spell:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Owner Skill/Spell Name                         Used  Low Damage   Average Damage      High Damage   Total Damage<BR>hermex aneurysm                                   10          243                       263                            281                   2,634  <BR>hermex cerebral spasm                          75            19                         30                            35                    2,252  <BR>hermex koldhagon's bolt of lethargy        68            44                         54                            60                    3,677 <BR>hermex mespha's torturous visions        80            49                         58                            60                    4,698 </DIV> <DIV>hermex nightmare (wither hope procs)   68            78                         78                            78                    5,304  <BR>hermex phantasmal charge                    15           151                       172                          197                    2,589  <BR>hermex scorching beam                         42            59                       138                          330                    5,799  <BR>hermex wither hope                                 81            67                         85                            97                    6,949  <BR>hermex arcane fury                                10           174                       224                           273                    2,249  <BR>hermex arcane storm                              6           149                        185                         222                      1,111  <BR></DIV> <DIV>I chopped off the last used portion as it seems insignifcant and took up space <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>68 Wither hope procs in those fights ... man I love that spell <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> bout the only real spell we have imho <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Hermex D'illusionaire on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 AM</span>

[KaltenAlTh]

<P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>My log results using "EQ-II Companion" parser from two nights ago.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3>on King Drayek (<STRONG>36.7<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></STRONG></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3><B></B></FONT></P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>AttackStart/End/Duration/Dmg/Dmg%/DPS/Hit/Miss/Hit%/MaxH/MinH/AvgH </FONT> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3><B>Total:</B><B>22:03:09</B><B>22:10:22</B><B>00:07:14</B><B>15,964</B><B>100.0%</B><B>36.78</B><B>226</B><B>36</B><B>86.3%</B><B>378</B><B>17</B><B>71</B> </FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Couple examples of other poeple's DPS on raid.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Lvl 50 zerker = 158.33, Lvl50 zerker = 142.81, lvl50 zerker = 131.09, lvl50 swashy = 109.86, lvl47 warlock = 104.37, lvl49 zerker = 104.15, lvl50 guardian = 74.29, lvl 47 dirge = 60.57</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3>on King Zalak The Ancient (<STRONG>41.79 dps)</STRONG></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3><B>Total:</B><B>22:59:37</B><B>23:05:37</B><B>00:06:01</B><B>15,087</B><B>100.0%</B><B>41.79</B><B>192</B><B>30</B><B>86.5%</B><B>412</B><B>18</B><B>79</B> </FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Couple examples of other poeple's DPS on raid.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT size=3>lvl 50 swashy = 170.98, lvl50 zerker = 165.41, lvl50 zerker = 122.97, lvl50 zerker = 113.42, lvl47 warlock = 111.71; lvl50guardian = 74.67, lvl 45 monk = 62.21.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3> </FONT> <P><FONT size=3> </FONT></P><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:27 PM</span>

[Hermex D'illusionai]

<P>Next epic kill I go on I will parse myself out. /shrug </P> <P>There's no doubt your relative DPS compared to the others you've listed there is low. Just another reason we need to come around a bit with relation to the other sub-classes but that is in the works or so it would seem. No point in attacking that till we see what is to come. </P> <P>Furthermore, the longer the fight and the more your doing other stuff like rebreezing, mezzing off cohorts/adds, rehasting, and not reapplying your dots, tossing a few dd spells, AoE nuking,  completing HO's will definately bring down DPS. Clearly epic mobs have much higher mitigations to things as well though that should apply across the board and not significantly affect the shown imbalance in your parses.</P> <P> </P>

[Twobox]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KaltenAlThor wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hermex D'illusionaire wrote:<BR> <P>I do think, either the game needs to be re-tooled to make our CC capabilities a more needed item or we need to have a DPS upgrade to bring us in line with the realities of the content we face. For a very light armor wearing class we do too little damage I would agree.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm glad to see we agree on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The stuff above is the whole point lol!</P> <P>Whether our DPS is 40, 60, 80, or 200 . . . it doesn't really matter. We all agree it sucks. The real problem is THERE IS NO NEED FOR CROWD CONTROL in EQ2.</P> <P>Most informed people who choose the Enchanter class do/did it to play a crowd controller. Heck, if you wanted to tank, heal, or DPS you'd certainly choose another class lol.</P> <P>You can't fix the Enchanter-class by increasing it's DPS. All that accomplishes is to create another DPS-class option. Frankly, there's already quite enough of them.</P> <P>We even seem to have almost the right spell set - before you scream it needs some tweaks - to do crowd control. But the game doesn't need it . . . sadly but more important, it doesn't seem to WANT it.</P> <P> </P>

[Hermex D'illusionai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twobox wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KaltenAlThor wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hermex D'illusionaire wrote:<BR> <P>I do think, either the game needs to be re-tooled to make our CC capabilities a more needed item or we need to have a DPS upgrade to bring us in line with the realities of the content we face. For a very light armor wearing class we do too little damage I would agree.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm glad to see we agree on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The stuff above is the whole point lol!</P> <P>Whether our DPS is 40, 60, 80, or 200 . . . it doesn't really matter. We all agree it sucks. The real problem is THERE IS NO NEED FOR CROWD CONTROL in EQ2.</P> <P>Most informed people who choose the Enchanter class do/did it to play a crowd controller. Heck, if you wanted to tank, heal, or DPS you'd certainly choose another class lol.</P> <P>You can't fix the Enchanter-class by increasing it's DPS. All that accomplishes is to create another DPS-class option. Frankly, there's already quite enough of them.</P> <P>We even seem to have almost the right spell set - before you scream it needs some tweaks - to do crowd control. But the game doesn't need it . . . sadly but more important, it doesn't seem to WANT it.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't know that I'd say there is NO need. The need is certainly limited though. I really cannot understand the idea that someone can walk by a room in a dungeon, spot a named in the back of the room, and providing they have the range pull that encounter with no fear of agroing anything else in the room. I just can't get over the idea that if I pull a solo mob real close to one of his buddies that he wouldn't turn to him and go "hey man I need a hand"!. </P> <P>Each and every subclass should be trading some usefullness to gain increased usefullness in other areas. Healers largely trade off their damage dealing capabilities to gain better armor and the ability to heal themselves as well as other party members. Tanks trade the ability to do the melee damage scouts are capable of for increased armor class, the ability to keep mobs attention,  etc. Scouts give up ac for increased melee damage output and it should even further sub-divide as the classes do.</P> <P>Fact is, coercers, and Illusionists give up ac for increased damage and give up damage for crowd control capabilites and the ability to increase potential damage from members of our party. the way the game is set up now, our haste while providing extra damage, is simply not worth the huge loss of damage take. With all the spells, potions, totems, items, etc that can boost power regen and the fact that it is quite fast as a standard in combat our power regen facilities, while adding to the overall damage output of our party, are kind of limited as well. Combined with that, the fact that CC is a very limited need just makes giving up damage for it so much the worse feeling. If there were more need, i.e. nearby encounters or mobs linked with the faction of the mob your killing helped out when you pulled our roles would be fine imho. As it stands we give up too much damage capability for a skill/spells that are in very limited situations usefull. </P> <P>Without changing the game mechanics to add increased need for CC abilities and increasing the effectiveness or our power regen and haste spells we are truly getting the shaft by asking us to give up damage to have them. I do not think they are going to change the way a mob or encounter close enough to see reacts to a friend being pulled so the logical solution is to ask for some of that damage back /shrug. I would even be happy with having super fast casting damage spells with low recycles or more AoE DoT's to lower mitigations and do damage on group mob encounters /shrug </P> <P>We simply have to wait and see what is in store.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Hermex D'illusionaire on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>

[Stealth Status]

<P>hmmm , I think you guys are just in guild or groups that don't want to optimize time.  If you want to optimize time and keep your risk low, CC is still VERY NEEDED.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Antonica Epic, I mez all the elementals, it is way easier then to just tank them,  espically if you don't  have a warden or a troub in raid.</P> <P> </P> <P>Froglok instance, plenty of add sets there that agro'd while fighting various epic mobs, and I would mez all of them, for about 4 hours this went on.  my mez coupled with professional healing, allowed us to not worry so much about the clutter and trash, focus on dropping the epic, then cleaning up afterward.  This also makes itsto the MA is easy to follow, and mobs don't clutter up the screen,which can end up screwing up both click and tab targeting.</P> <P>Also, back in mid 30's... (January) I would enjoyed much faster leveling and grouping.  If we were a class short and instead of waiting around for 2 hours "lfg mystic or fury" I couls just say screw it a main healer is good enough Ill just mez.  Do you see how much time that saves, and don't even get me started on how my insight Adept 3 and Frozz stacked with Master I Flowing Though (you know the one on the 10 min timer) as well as a well placed blast of manacloak Adept 3 can easily make up for a healer, which also could enable you to use only a Fury lets say as a main healer in the group, instead of waiting 2 hours for a temp or Iquis.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Also on Group Arena Very Difficult, I trio'd it with simple a Mystic, Me and Guadian, </P> <P> </P> <P>My dps was MORE then enough, if you know how to maximize your dd timers, mix with the Ae timers, Stun/Stifle at the exact right times, when it is not wasting others, and making sure your dots are always fresh, and never recasting them to early(that wastes power).  Any TRUE healer with my power regen is as good as a Tempor Inquis with a Fury, who have no regen spells on them.  </P> <P> </P> <P>I have been able to make my guild be able to successfully take down raid mobs such as Zek and the Old Zalak and Old Antonica, simply because I was there with the right tools which made us not have to rely on others.  With Zek, I have the second best AE dd's in the game, we had like no wizzards in our guild, scout heavy..... so we just had scouts switch from target to target on the timed blobs, well that is fine, but since I was still there to AE dd,  we were still able to beat the timers beacause as they switched to each mob, each mob was already down to only about 72% from my chain AE DDing and AE DOTTing</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Finally lets not forget our awesome Debuffs. Dismay doesn't break mez and rocks, really takes some offensive ummph out of Heoric and Epic Mobs alike. I love Wither Hope (Master I) and it also debuffs really good.  Plus I love how Nightmare also seems to always pop on it. so its like 2 dots in one.Lobotomize Master I is dope to... Stop complaining and learn to play the class.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you think your guild or friends are slighting you and not giving you enough of a role or enough to do, call them on it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Tell them their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ty played out Scout ia a dime a dozen, take them on a group arena run and show them what you can do. Make sure you lead the group, so you can make the rules,,,,,</P> <P> </P> <P>Next time they will be all "ohhh, well we dont have a troub/ mystic/Swashie, but Oh yeah thats right, the Illusionist can do that even better/fine to,.... player b then says, "Yeah they can, and they also have 66% Haste, and all that lovely power regen."</P> <P> </P> <P>As has been my situation over the last five months, you will constantly have the people in the your raid or people in your guild when looking to make xp groups, tearing each other limb from limb to have you in THEIR group, xp or raid.  In fact I've overheard many a uber guild leaders say, "ILlusionists are the most powerfull class in the game when played correctly and uliltized properly.  Why? Cause we are, now check the tagline and Shaddup =)</P>

[Twobox]

<P>Really.</P> <P>I suppose if no one in your raid group swings a Heiro Crook (eg), or invokes HOs (eg), or uses an AE taunt that drains power (eg), then maybe you actuially *could* keep the elementals (eg) mezzed.</P> <P>But, even so, the sad fact is - given the small number of Illusionists - everyone else actually does those raids without any mezzes. Which is because there is no need for crowd control in EQ2.</P> <P>I know you are wonderfully skilled at casting your dots. We could all probably learn from the master. But you know what? Your DPS still sucks.</P> <P>And you have nothing to make up for it, except Breeze. And if that's enough for you, then you are easily satisfied.</P> <P> </P>

[KaltenAlTh]

<DIV>First Stealth_Status, I'm glad you are happy.  Nothing wrong with you looking at the world of norrath though rose colored glasses.  Thier are alot of people that of course disagree.  Me being one of them.  I really think that both enchanter classes in this game are a shell of what they should be.  Stay with me as I take a look at some of the things that make you so happy about your class and give a little more information about those items.  Keep an open mind as you read this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) You love the class because it "optimize time".</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>but if you take nearly any class type out of any typical group and replace that class with a enchanter it slows down the kills per hour of the group.  I know I know that doesn't make sence cuase on the surface, we give everyone buffs after all; right?   The reason we slow down most groups is becuase we do so little DPS that the classes we replace get the group out of combat and into out-of-combat power regen state faster.  Hence increasing the power regen of the group by not having an enchanter.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>2) CC is VERY NEEDED (you used caps lock on very needed)</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Killing the mob is the ultimate CC.  Our CC keeps most from being damaged by AE, either that or the AE breaks the CC if your group doesn't know what they are doing.  The only time their is a benifit to having CC is when a boss mob plus 3 or more minor mobs all come on 1 pull.  It usually works well to mez the boss while AE killing the other mobs then getting to the boss.  Other then that CC (in the form of mez) is seldome needed.  We are talking about 1 out of oh, maybe 20 fights benifiting from CC (mez).  But even then they only benifit very slightly, i would hardly catagorize that as "VERY NEEDED" in caps.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>3) In the froglock instance</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Get a better puller and you won't have other groups added in.  You have also cut down the DPS of your raid by a ton by not allowing your zerkers, scouts, sorc ect to AE.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>4) back in the 30' level range....</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Enchanters are at their peak in the level 30 range.  After that it's down hill.  P.S. why would you ever need more then 1 healer in a group? </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>5) Also on Group Arena Very Difficult, I trio'd it with simple a Mystic, Me and Guadian,</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Another prespective on this is that you could have not gone on the raid at all and I bet those 2 could have finished that Arena if they had good equiptment.  Or if a sorc went instead of you, the group could have finished the fights alot faster.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>6) My dps was MORE then enough</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>You reduce the DPS potential of the group and reduce the kills/experience per hour of your group.  As an illusionist you are probally one of the worst if not the worst solo class in the game.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>7) With Zek, I have the second best AE dd's in the game, we had like no wizzards in our guild, scout heavy</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>We have pretty darn good AE, I won't deny that.  What I will point out is that if you use CC with your AE you reduce your own AE potential.  Also having this 1 fight of all the entire 'end game' content in the game where we can actually do fairly good DPS to me isn't enough.  I'd like more then 1 fight.  Also, get a few sorc for your guild.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Finally lets not forget our awesome Debuffs. Dismay rocks</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Dismay is decent but it's also a huge agro buff and its not awesome, you need a very sharp tank with adept 3 taunts to be sure this debuff doesn't get you killed.   Additionally even though this debuff is decent, thier are many that are much much better.   I know this isn't EQ1 but I look back to the days of EQ1 and think of Dispell, Attack Speed Debuffs, Tarnish and wards (ok not a debuff) and think that having the buffs I have not is just a mear shadow of what we could/should be.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>9) Make sure you lead the group, so you can make the rules,,,,,</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Eeek, forcing others to play to a less effective playstyle.  That won't make your alot of friends.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>10) Illusionists are the most powerfull class in the game when played correctly</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Wow just wow.  I mean really WOW.  I raid 6 nights a week.  I speak to the other illusionists in raid guilds on my server dayly.  Most raids end with no real benifit from my haste, my debuffs make little or no difference, nearly all raids do not benifit from my power drains, nearly all raids do not benifit from my CC and other then zek no raid really gets much DPS out of me.  I can't even fathom how this could be true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only benifit we provide that has a big impact on a raid is power regen and I really want more impact that refreshing buffs every 15 minutes.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Count_Drakenkor]

<DIV>Hey guys, just wanted to say hello and point out one or two things i noticed in the previous posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Twobox, I noticed you mentioned that the elementals cant be mezzed if anyone HO's or AE's....but I think it is important to notice that the elementals, after being summoned by the Arch-Lich, are in a seperate encounter.  Since they were upgraded to AE stun it is actually more efficient to mez them now(in my opinion).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kalten, I notice you stated that having an illusionist in the grp lowers the kill/hour. I can not think of a more untrue statement for our class. I am almost done with my 3rd character to 50 and I must admit that in my times leveling, once we have a tank and healer the most desired class is an enchanter. The basis on having out of combat regen does not seem resonable if you have a good tank. Most ppl prefer to have constant chain pulls with no more than ~10 seconds of out of combat time. The objective is to stay in combat killing as much as possible, enchanters allow this.</DIV> <DIV>Also, as far as dismay goes, I box my illusionist with a guardian and I use dismay all the time. After 2 taunts(this usually takes place in the first 5 seconds of combat) the agro is secure and dismay almost never pulls agro(This is an alt guardian with adept 1 taunts vs Master 1 dismay). I can also honestly say that I have NEVER pulled agro in a raid with dismay. </DIV> <DIV>Also, Illusionist are not the worst solo class in the game by far. There are some class's that can not even come close to soloing Lava Born or the VHard pit arena. It can certainly be done with an illusionist(no mez/nuke required).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand I agree that our dps is not all that great(but it isnt exactly 0 either). We have better dps than the priests class, but pretty much every other mage, scout, and fighter best us. However since we are not a "DPS" class this probably isnt the biggest concern to us. I also agree that CC is not needed nearly as much as we would like for it to be, but it does have its uses in certain situations. There are a few(not many) encounters in SotL that are much easier to handle by having mez. Is mez required to beat it? No, but it does make things smoother.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, I look forward to the combat changes. Has anyone heard any hint of what specific spell lines we might be losing/gaining/changing? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun, see ya in game!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Count_Drakenkorin on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<DIV>my dps on king Zalak (82.84) (same time frame as KaltenAlThor's)</DIV> <DIV><B>Total:</B><B>21:30:36</B><B>21:33:55</B><B>00:03:20</B><B>16,567</B><B>100.0%</B><B>82.84</B><B>162</B><B>45</B><B>78.3%</B><B>1.04</B><B>409</B><B>7</B><B>102</B><B></B></DIV> <P> </P> <P>level 50 Bruiser:  221.96</P> <P>level 50 Assissin:  190.02</P> <P>level 50 Troubador:  138.66</P> <P>Level 50 Monk:  201.78</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Azamien-Dermorate on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:55 PM</span>

[Stealth Status]

<P>Thank you Drakenkorin for saving me the typing about the group dps,  WHO XP'S WIHTOUT CONSTANT TANK PULLS?!!?!? Our of combat regen doesn't matter in this case. Also I add dps by the 66% haste to the scouts, Dismay to the scouts, and further more more mana in combat for the wizzies and all my dots and debufss make the wizzies hit higher etc...   Thanks Count we are on the same page there.</P> <P> </P> <P>as for my VERY NEEDED, in caps, your right no capps was needed, I aghree with Drakenkorin that it can help in some situations and make others way smoother, but I guess it is not VERY NEEDED then lol.</P> <P> </P> <P>Dismay does rock, I don't know what you are talking about because I've never ever ever pulled agro in a raid or group with this.  Plus you should always be using Tartons wheel or Blink after you do that kinda stuff in a raid anyway.  Lower agro, or use Slip if you have the CMR.</P> <P> </P> <P>I forget the name of the poster who posted to me cause I can only see Drakenkorins int he reply box but I did read your post and appreciated your comments, I guess we just disagree.  This thread is kinda uber!! Keep it up.</P> <P> </P> <P>DrakenKorin,</P> <P> </P> <P>I have heard two things.  One that will be gaining Charm, and that Charm is going to be fixed for us and Coercers. Also, I have heard that we will possibly be getting a ROOT.  by name, ROOT. that is 20-30 sec lasting with no other effects.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[KaltenAlTh]

<DIV>On dismay agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at these old posts.  Their are several others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=5062&query.id=166638#M5062" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=5062&query.id=166638#M5062</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=5283&query.id=166655#M5283" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=5283&query.id=166655#M5283</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not me saying dismay has to much agro, I'm just referencing other poeple experience.  Look at the reponce from me in the first link.  Since I made that post I have pulled agro 1 time using dismay.  If was painful.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>Also go compare dismay to the Fury's lvl 47 skills called Irritating Swarm. Not only can they decrease those skills by 7 at app1, but their version is an AE, lasts twice as long, takes about 30 less power, and also decreases agility by 32.  This is an example of why I think dismay is nice but not wonderful or "VERY NEEDED".</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>In regards to dps/experence per hour slowing down.  It's been my experience that when say a Warlork is in a group instead of Illusionist that the mob dies much faster and that extra time where the mob dies faster is time that a group is regenerating power at a "rest rates" which is above and beyond the power that an enchanter adds to a group.  Hence the pull rate can be speed up by not having an illusionist in group in the place of that warlock.  Now obviously the group regens more power while in combat  by having an illusionist.  But that is more then made up by the regen rate of power while in rest mode.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by KaltenAlThor on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[Stealth Status]

<DIV>Kalten I just don't get what your saying about pulling, you never need to wait to everyone is FM before pulling. You don't want any down time, the Zerker or whoever is pulling should just do group after group after group after group after group. The illusionist allows you to do this wihtout ever getting fully drained or anything. You are correct though in the fact that also in this method the power will prolly never be full FULL , but who cares when its not a raid and your just looking for quantity.</DIV>

[Count_Drakenkor]

<DIV>I agree, dismay is not as good as irritating swarm. Irritating swarm is considered by a number of people to be one of the best debuffs in the game(and for good reason). This being said, dismay(master 1) does decrease the enemy abilities also by 7(no it does not decrease the agi nor is it encounter based) but it is still a very good debuff and is a valuable tool for soloing. The fact that it can be cast while a mob is mezzed makes it a "free spell".  As far as the agro thing goes, it is going to depend on who is tanking. My experience has been that the agro from dismay is very managable, though I may have been lucky and blessed with good tanks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A more practical spell to debate for grouping I think is Speechless(you get it at around ~ 30 as opposed to dismay at 45). There is no denying that for grping this spell is phenominal. Most mobs can be reduced to 0 power in just a few casts. This spell may not be needed in high dps grps but for nameds,etc. It can make the fight trivial. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kills/hour, I can kind of see where you are going with it Kalten, but would be tuff to find a single player in a grp whos dps is going to out weigh the power regen of an enchanter. Now that incombat power regen has been changed/fixed/nerfed(insert whichever you like) I think there is little doubt that an enchanter in group will far outpace in kills/hour a group without one. </DIV>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stealth Status wrote:<BR> <P>Thank you Drakenkorin for saving me the typing about the group dps,  WHO XP'S WIHTOUT CONSTANT TANK PULLS?!!?!? Our of combat regen doesn't matter in this case. Also I add dps by the 66% haste to the scouts, Dismay to the scouts, and further more more mana in combat for the wizzies <FONT color=#ccff00>and all my dots and debufss make the wizzies hit higher</FONT> etc...   Thanks Count we are on the same page there.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Two things that i would like to point out here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. our dots and resist debuffs do absolutely nothing to raise any other mages damage or make them hit higher.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>illusionist can debuff magic, mental and devine which is NOT used by sorcerer or summoner.</DIV> <DIV>wiz deal cold and heat damage. if they want hit harder and have their nukes land easier they need to debuff cold and heat. mental or magic debuffs have zero impact on their spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. many ppl in this game, mostly those who played eq1 i assume, seem still to think of enchanter as a good debuffing class.</DIV> <DIV>but mages in general, and enchanter are no exception here, are not meant to be debuffer in eq2. The debuffing class in this game are the healers, folllowed by scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beside resist debuffs, which all mages and healers have btw, what other stat debuffs do illusionists get? till lvl 44 i can not think of any. then we get mind drain and dismay, although nice spells, far from being best.</DIV> <DIV>dont get me wrong, we sure can reduce damage of a mob - through other skills though, but in actual debuffing we are not better than a warlock and far behind healers.</DIV>

[Gorkk00]

<span><blockquote><hr>Stealth Status wrote:<div>Kalten I just don't get what your saying about pulling, you never need to wait to everyone is FM before pulling. You don't want any down time, the Zerker or whoever is pulling should just do group after group after group after group after group. The illusionist allows you to do this wihtout ever getting fully drained or anything. You are correct though in the fact that also in this method the power will prolly never be full FULL , but who cares when its not a raid and your just looking for quantity.</div><hr></blockquote>It's pretty simple though... In your reasoning (chain killing will get more xp than not chain killing), you forget something: time needed to kill each mob. Here's a pretty simple example to illustrate Kalten's point (figures are made out, but are well in line with what can be observed in game): - Group 1 with an illusionist: fight last 1mn, will engage another mob as soon as the first is dead => 1 mob per minute - Group 2 - same group with a warlock instead of the illusionist, same mob: fight will last 30s (if not less), 10s to recover power after fight to be in the same state than group 1 before pulling again => 1 mob every 40s, so 1.5 mob per minute, that is 50% more than group 1. Here Group 2 (with only one class changed from Group 1) will gain 50% xp than Group 1, as they kill 50% more mob in the same time, even is they are not chain pulling but Group 1 is. You get what he was saying now?</span><div></div>

[Count_Drakenkor]

<DIV>If adding a warlock to the grp makes you kill 50% faster then you need to fire the other 2 dps class's in your grp. Who is to say you dont already have a warlock?  I understand what you are trying to point out but the numbers you are giving dont add up. I would imagine it would be more along the line of:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank: 100dps</DIV> <DIV>Healer: 25dps</DIV> <DIV>Enchanter: 50dps</DIV> <DIV>DPS1: 150 dps</DIV> <DIV>DPS2: 175 dps</DIV> <DIV>DPS3: 200 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Total 700 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Tank: 100dps</DIV> <DIV>Healer: 25dps</DIV> <DIV>DPS1: 150 dps</DIV> <DIV>DPS2: 175dps </DIV> <DIV>DPS3: 200 dps</DIV> <DIV>DPS4: 225 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Total 875 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>These numbers would pertain to a high 40's-50grp or a group that would be killing in the near future for the expansion.</DIV> <DIV>For lower lvls the dps numbers are much lower but scale fairly evenly as they go down.</DIV> <DIV>(if you think these numbers are way off feel free to plug in your own and calculate it out, these are a GUESS)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you replaced an enchanter with the HIGHEST dps class(225) you would get a 25% increase. This is a pretty extreme case. More than likely you are going to chose the best 2 or 3 dps class's anyways. For the average player with only FT10 or so, enchanter power regen will more than double the in combat power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This being said, you are probably better off dropping even your highest dps class in the grp for an enchanter if you want to maximize your kills/hour. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From my personal experience I have found this to be the case. I could be wrong, I am simply trying to put numbers to what I have experienced while leveling.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Count_Drakenkorin on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

[Gorkk00]

<div></div>Well, from my experience in (xp) group, add 1 warlock (or even worse 2 sorcerers), and most of the time i barely have time to land 1 nightmare... on double ups mobs i'll have time to cast speechless once if i started casting it before the tank pulled, and mob is dead or so before it wears off. Sure before getting to end 30s it was less visible. (figures i gave was on a 1mn fight basis to make it more readable, but few fights in xp groups last that long <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). [Edit] typo <div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorkk00 on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 AM</span>

[jin]

Unless you are a regular in a skillful and disciplined group, mez is worthless.  The sad thing is that in most cases, a group does well enough with tank mezzing.  My lvl 50 illusionist has been in many raids, but never had a mez last longer than 2 - 3 seconds.  As a result, I don't mez in raids and nobody expects me to.  There may be that 1% of professional eq2 players that say this is not the case for them, but believe me, it is the case for 99% of players.  Power regen can be important once in a while.  Many groups and raids do just fine though with no enchanter class at all.

[Count_Drakenkor]

<DIV>I have experienced this also in several groups jinna. It is not always needed and you cant MAKE people respect the spell. Most grps do get along fine without it by just tanking all the adds. However, in raid situations, we keep logs and if mez is broken....our raid leader/officers find out who did it and literally rips them a new one.....Needless to say, it does not get broken often.</DIV>