Improving encounter based AE spells

[MilkToa]

I would like to see a warlocks's encounter based AE spells (absolution, nebula, devastation lines) changed to make their damage a function of the number of targets in the encounter. The damage could be scaled as follows (X = the current spell damage):1 target -> 1.50 * X damage2 targets -> 1.25 * X damage3 targets -> 1.00 * X damage4+ targets -> 0.75 * X damageThis is a change that would get me excited about playing my warlock again. What do you think? Is it overpowering?Thanks

[drajev]

<P>Well tbh it's not overpowering, it's the other way around, quite underpowering really. Can you tell me how many encounters in all the raid instances are about single targets only? I would say they're not more than 25-30%, nameds included. And on aoe encounters how many of them are of less than 3-4 targets - trash mobs or nameds with adds included? I can't think of a single one. So what you're actually proposing can be regarded as a nerf on warlock aoe spells. </P> <P>I would suppose that by saying this you imply that you would use aoe spells on single targets. That was a mistake i was doing at first after i betrayed and didn't know the warlock class well enough yet and wondered why my dps sucked on single targets. The only aoe spells which i cast on single targets are apocalypse and dark infestation. All the other aoe spells are useless because they have a long casting timer and not really good enough damage for single target. So you get oom fast and do crap dps. On single targets apart apoc and DI you only use DD spells - war pyre is the best, distortion, thwart, aura of nihility, etc, these ones are rather faster to cast, can trigger dmg procs, troub proc and they do the majority of warlock's single target dps - dots are always to be kept up to do good dps, try this and you'll see how better dps you'll be doing than bothering to cast absolution or nebula on single targets, it just makes no sense. </P>

[Vaylan77]

<P>i use my encounter and aoe spells even on single targets. why not. while the other spells are reloading i have to to cast the encounter spells. have made good experience with this strategy. only because a spell can make damage to more than just one target that does not mean it only has to be used then. even the aoe spell (and please be more specific with your naming of spells - aoe = area of effect, anyone standing around you is hit, encounter spell = only linked mobs are hit!) is nothing but a dot which also can be cast on a single target. it works perfect and it works perfect because a real dot can be resisted, than you have to cast it again. your aoe cloud spell can be resisted but it will do a dot nonetheless and the second time the mob has to resist again or it hits.</P> <P>btw. i don't need the encounter spells to do different damage when targeting a different number of mobs. they are peffect the way they are now.</P>

[drajev]

<P>Aoes or encounter-based spells or whatever u wanna call em, are worthless against single targets, except apoc and DI as i said before. Why - because they have a high mana cost and long casting timer which results in low dps. Result - you lose mana very fast and lose dps. I can chain nuke all my single target spells without having to fill in aoes when all DD spells are down as you suggest . You have enough DD spells to not wait for them to reload and use aoes. DD spells use less mana, are on a low casting timer which means better dps+the more spells u cast during a fight, the more procs you can trigger either from troub buffs or from your own dmg proc items. Anything not clear?</P> <P>Velizar, warlock of Remnant, Runnyeye</P>

[Keitho]

<div><blockquote><hr>drajev wrote:<div></div> <p>Aoes or encounter-based spells or whatever u wanna call em, are worthless against single targets, except apoc and DI as i said before. Why - because they have a high mana cost and long casting timer which results in low dps. Result - you lose mana very fast and lose dps. I can chain nuke all my single target spells without having to fill in aoes when all DD spells are down as you suggest . You have enough DD spells to not wait for them to reload and use aoes. DD spells use less mana, are on a low casting timer which means better dps+the more spells u cast during a fight, the more procs you can trigger either from troub buffs or from your own dmg proc items. Anything not clear?</p> <p>Velizar, warlock of Remnant, Runnyeye</p><hr></blockquote>With my gear set up ...I rarely  Rarely run out of power unless im chain aoeing....thats cause i have 2 items that  give regen....  hopefully third whenever mo wants to drpo it.... BUt ya ....Dont lower our aoe dps I LOVE IT.....Either increase ..something....but with increasing somethig .....we still as a caster class....theres something with agro  that needs re worked..    I always thought ...that casters Wizard/Warlock ....Did most damage in raid depending what resists the mob had etc etc...Why? Cuase they were most likely to get agro and die.....We def have the risk of agro ...LOL but the Dps to not support it....While we have Assassins That Hate dump ..deagro etc etc... Swashy...that hate dump...Casts combat things to lose 1 hate position...   what do casters get a spell that deagro 500 or so..... we need these spells that deagro 1 hate position.. etc etc....but we all need  the dps  upgraded...</div>

[MilkToa]

<P>In places like Deathtoll and Halls of Seeing most of the encounters are single target. AOE damage is much less important in T7 than it was in T6 and T5, and it is seldom necessary. In fact, the only encounter I can think of that AoE was necessary is the T5 raid zone the Deserted Mines. Most named mob and raid boss mob encounters are single target and I can't think of a single T7 zone that required AOE damage to complete. Currently a warlock is just a useless appendage on the end of a raid that could be easily replaced by a number of better DPS classes. Currently the raid DPS  game is skewed toward melee classes and away from AOE classes. There are just more ways to enhance melee DPS than caster DPS. Procs do much less damage than they use to so a warlock's ability to contribute to other classes DPS is diminished too. A warlock's stuns and roots have been nerfed which makes soloing much more difficult. Just go to the vendor and look at number of warlock spells for sale - people can't give them away because there's no one to buy them (except for the plat farmers which love AOE classes).</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by MilkToast on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[drajev]

<P>Only the nameds in Deathtool come as single targets, most of the trash apart gazers are aoe encounters - like the worms or the droags, and my guild is very happy with the "apendage" of dps i deliver and don't think i'm useless at all, have you seen any top raiding guild without a warlock?</P> <P>In HoS i'd say its half aoe, half single targets, you certainly can't say we're useless for let's say elemental warder... It's so fun to be under amends and to receive jester's cap for that encounter... Anyway even trash mobs are long enough fights to be able to do good dps and while being a caster i don't risk getting owned by some melee aoe of the mob or sth like that...</P> <P>Milk, what you basically emit is yet another moan that warlocks suck and are useless, which we aren't. You know it all too well - devs wont start changing the damage on your spells at this point - nor is it of any use. Dmg is just what we need, agro isn't. About soloing - we're still very good at it, and we solo better than wizards because our roots are harder to break, true a little bit slower but i've had no problem at all soloing nameds, was soloing Ishtaran in HoS with the wizard before i betrayed, i can do it with the warlock now too. </P> <P>Like soulgrinder says, the only thing that needs fixing is agro, and i like his suggestion of lowering position on hate list for example. </P>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> drajev wrote:<BR> <P>Only the nameds in Deathtool come as single targets, most of the trash apart gazers are aoe encounters - like the worms or the droags, and my guild is very happy with the "apendage" of dps i deliver and don't think i'm useless at all, have you seen any top raiding guild without a warlock?</P> <P>In HoS i'd say its half aoe, half single targets, you certainly can't say we're useless for let's say elemental warder... It's so fun to be under amends and to receive jester's cap for that encounter... Anyway even trash mobs are long enough fights to be able to do good dps and while being a caster i don't risk getting owned by some melee aoe of the mob or sth like that...</P> <P>Milk, what you basically emit is yet another moan that warlocks suck and are useless, which we aren't. You know it all too well - devs wont start changing the damage on your spells at this point - nor is it of any use. Dmg is just what we need, agro isn't. About soloing - we're still very good at it, and we solo better than wizards because our roots are harder to break, true a little bit slower but i've had no problem at all soloing nameds, was soloing Ishtaran in HoS with the wizard before i betrayed, i can do it with the warlock now too. </P> <P>Like soulgrinder says, the only thing that needs fixing is agro, and i like his suggestion of lowering position on hate list for example. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>We aren't needed against the Elemental Warder if you mez the adds, which is easy and simplifies the fight. Most the droags in Deathtoll have so little HP they aren't even worth considering, besides there are other classes that can AE well and have better single target DPS. As I said above I only know of one raid zone that required AE to win so having a warlock on a raid is not necessary and in most cases not even desirable. Most important T7 raid encounters depend on single target DPS so there's no way I would take a warlock over a wizard for a T7 raid. The only case it makes sense is if the zone is trivial for your guild and taking a warlock may reduce your raid time by a few minutes because the trash mobs will die a little faster. Also, warlocks are such aggro magnets when the go all out on an AE encounter that they get aggro and disrupt the encounter (which can lower the raid DPS for that encounter).</P> <P>SOE didn't mind changing things dramatically in LU13, so why can't they shift our DPS back toward more single target? AE damage could matter in this game but the way raid zones are setup now it really doesn't. From my perspective, if your class is a pure DPS class like a warlock and you can't regular top the DPS charts on the important encounters your class is substandard. </P> <P>I love my warlock and I want the class fixed but until then I'll raid with my brigand or defiler. If you like to raid you should try playing a class that really shines in a raid environment, it will open you eyes to the sorry state of the warlock class.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by MilkToast on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

[drajev]

<P>Milk, giving an example of a t5 zone which requires a warlock to win is hardly worth considering as we're now in t7, besides i haven't heard of any raiding guild who bothers to mezz adds in Elemental Warder fight, or hardly any other named fight with adds - easiest thing is just have a zerker tank then you can do whatever you want, chances of stealing agro are slim if your zerker is good and well hate-buffed etc, then full burn. You still seem to not get it do you?</P> <P>So i'm gonna say it one more time, and i strongly believe i'm talking from all the high-end warlock community. We have enough aoe dps, our class is designed to be aoe specialists, NOT single target specialist. If you want DD damage, go play an assassin. Our problem is not lack of dps, a well-played, well-geared, master-spelled warlock will outdps ANY class in aoe damage. Our single target dps is very decent and i'm happy with it as i stand close to conjurers, brigands, swashies, not too far from wizards on these targets, and don't start saying that they must suck, cause a brigand or a wizard doing 1.5K dps doesn't suck. </P> <P>I only agree that we're broken on agro controll, need stuff like brigands, swashies, some spell that can deagro instantly some 4-5K threat on target encounter, on lets say 3-5 mins reuse timer so it scales with rogues best deagro art. </P> <P>I'd suggest as some other poster on the Rift vs Fusion forum, get geared up a bit, get yourself some masters then try to know your class better instead of just saying we are worthless, there simply isn't any point. As i told you, you give examples of other classes comparing our dmg to theirs, so you won't bring a "fix" to warlocks, but a nerf to those other classes, and we'll stay "broken". </P> <P>You probably won't take a warlock for Deathtoll either - lets skip the poison/disease buffs for tarinax and cruor alluvium, cause they're worthless...I forgot to say they stack with necro ones...</P> <P>Who cares what spot you take on the dps parser as long as you do your best and exploit your class to the maximum? In aoe fights i almost always top the parser, but i don't care, DD targets 5th or 6th but with 1.1K+ dps i'm happy - it's normal rogues and wizards and assassins do more, it's their speciality. </P> <P>I rest my case.</P>

[MilkToa]

One piece of player crafted poison/disease resist gear more than makes up for the resist buffs a warlock provides.

[Melseb]

<div></div>I agree with Drajev. We have some NASTY potential to do dmg and the only thing thats broke about warlocks is aggro control. I do between 1300-1600 on single targets in DT. I do a little higher on 2 mob groups..... about 1800.3 mob groups i can only do about 1800 before i start to get aggro from at least on of the mobs.In any encounter with 4+ mobs we can easily dish out upwards of 3k dps as long as we can stay alive. It's pretty lame that our broken aggro cant let us do what our specialty is though.I have a screenshot of a 5200 dps on that trash encounter of 8 heroic mobs just up the stairs from Vilucidae. Only achievable because the encounter was over before Nullmail's timer ran out heh heh.(btw our top wizard had 4300 dps on that fight)Anyone can parse high with a wizard or an assassin. All you need is a semi decent tank. COMPLETELY different story with warlocks. You have to die alot to find that threshold between wtfpwn dps and a raid mob's sword in your face. Every raid is a constant love affair with that threshold. I have been raiding about 3-4 nights a week since T5 and i still die alot compared to other classes in the raid. (that threshold was rediculously hard to find when i went 44461 str and 4848 wis... apocalypse was ticking for 3500. I had to use backupgear before the 1st named in lyceum. I was so frustrated that I respecced my aa's again the next day.)Daenarys70 WarlockMob SquadKithicor<div></div><p>Message Edited by Melseb on <span class=date_text>08-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[MilkToa]

<P>I agree with the fact that a warlock has a lot of AE damage potential.  Many current warlocks think the only problem is aggro control - fix that and all is good. I don't think that will every happen. If SOE makes it so warlocks can AE with impunity  (like most single target classes can in a well constructed raid force) it would be overpowering and too disruptive to game balance. These changes would most likely effect any class that AEs diirectly or indirectly. That's one of the reasons I think the AE specialist role will never work well. Improving our single target damage at a slight expense to our AE damage seems like a more realistic and workable solution.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Mastire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MilkToast wrote:<BR>I would like to see a warlocks's encounter based AE spells (absolution, nebula, devastation lines) changed to make their damage a function of the number of targets in the encounter. The damage could be scaled as follows (X = the current spell damage):<BR><BR>1 target -> 1.50 * X damage<BR>2 targets -> 1.25 * X damage<BR>3 targets -> 1.00 * X damage<BR>4+ targets -> 0.75 * X damage<BR><BR>This is a change that would get me excited about playing my warlock again. What do you think? Is it overpowering?<BR><BR>Thanks<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I accualy think this is a good idea. Milk your not totaly just bash the warlock like I thaught <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[drajev]

Yeah Milk, maybe it would be overpowering, but just think how overpowered are necros for example - they can do with impunity pretty much the same dps on single targets and aoe - that is a well played necro ofc as if pet goes nuts and draws agro and dies - then all the hate from pet's dps is transferred immediately to the necro and he gets agro next. So in case this doesn't happen, i pretty much agree necros are better than us given we don't have the so needed management of agro. So maybe it would be just a class balance if we had some very powerful deagro spell on a long recast for the biggest aoe encounters. Then we can do what we're designed to do, and the person who posted above that threshold is absolutely right, i feel the same way on every raid, especially as i didnt have 70 levels to learn progressively the warlock class but had to deal with it from lvl 70. In most of the easy now raids as Lyceum, HoS, Lab, i most commonly finish at 40-50% gear when tank and healers are 90-100%, only from agro stealing. It ain't fun, but that's how it goes sadly.

[Mastire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melseb wrote:<BR> agree with Drajev. We have some NASTY potential to do dmg and the only thing thats broke about warlocks is aggro<BR>I have a screenshot of a 5200 dps on that trash encounter of 8 heroic mobs just up the stairs from Vilucidae. Only achievable because the encounter was over before Nullmail's timer ran out heh heh.<BR>(btw our top wizard had 4300 dps on that fight)<BR> <P><BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>At level 60 I had a 11k Parce <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />,</P> <P>That being said a 8 heroic mobs isn't a raid encounter so those parces should be ignored.<BR></P>

[svek]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Warlocks need a damage boost as well as better deagro.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>The 3% hate transfer we're getting in LU27 is laughable,</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>right now we're very dependent upon other classes to reduce</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>our hate.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>However besides a better hate transfer (would have loved to see</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>one above 10% at least) we do need a dps boost since I'm</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>sick and tired of getting out dps:ed by other classes in AE</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>fights (i.e. Conjurers), even though I love to compete against</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size=2>them =P</FONT></DIV>

[Keitho]

Worse thing is getting out dpsed  by tanks...oo my fav ..single target class's like assassin on  AOE encounters...give me a break soe<div></div>