Warlock Issue's and Concerns

[Xede]

<div>I've meant to do this for awhile but lately we've had numerous threads and posts on these boards concerning our DPS and where we are meant to be. Basically I want to see the feedback from the rest of the Warlock community and get one cosolidated thread to all of our issues and concerns for the class.</div><div><strike>Aggro is probably the biggest issue I have with the class. Our deaggros I believe are pretty much useless and don't reduce hate as much as it should. We should either :</strike></div><div><strike>A) lower the amount of hate the Warlock dishes out </strike></div><div><b>B) increase the deaggro on our already deaggro skills</b><span style="color: #ffff00;">(DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!!)</span></div><div><b>C) have some other idea for the issue</b>.<span style="color: #ffff00;">(ANOTHER WINNER!!! AA can also fix that)</span></div><div><strike>In order for us to even maximize our DPS we have to have numerous deaggro things on us and even at that we will still pull aggro, especially on big AE encounters. Conjurors and Necros can do more AE dps and not get aggro unless their pets die. I for one am peeved at that. We need some sort of innate deaggro or something to help us on this issue.  </strike><span style="color: #ffff99;">Rarely ever have aggro issues anymore</span></div><div><strike>DPS is also another issue that comes up on alot of topics. The questions is why should you bring a warlock instead of a conjuror or necro or even wizard? Really can't think of why you want to bring a warlock. Our single target DPS isn't too bad but when we get out dps'd by zerkers, swashbucklers, brigands, bruisers, and other DPS classes you have to know something is wrong. Ideally the top of the parses should be Wizard/assassin, ranger/warlock but as we all know its more like Conj/Necro/Assassin, Wizard then the rest whether it be Warlock or even one of the other classes I have stated before. We are not far from where we need to be on the parse but we do need a boost in DPS one way or another. Someone will say well give us some utility.....well all I have to say about utility is hell no. We are a DPS class, we should deal out the DPS and leave the utility to the Enchanters and Bards. </strike><span style="color: #ffff00;"><strike>(will know once i get another 50 AA's and can determine our full potential in DPS)</strike> Warlocks IMO are fine the way they are and just need spell resist rate fixed</span></div><div><strike>One suggestion I see that isn't too unreasonable is increasing the damage our DoT's do by about 50-100 more a tick (<span style="color: #ffff00;">FIXED, AA line now reduces DoT duration and reduces recast time</span>). On our AE damage they need to totally redo how it is done<span style="color: #ffff00;">(FIXED, AA line increases damage and also get a passive spell that can deal adittional damage)</span>. We have to use everything we can get to even try to match Conjurors in that aspect and still get humiliated by them. There have been times that I thought wow I totally owned that encounter and then the parse comes out and I'm third or 4th on the parse. That just makes me scratch my head thinking how in the hell do they do that? IMO summoners are still overpowered if the person knows how to play the class. Am I asking for a nerf? hell no I do not wish for a nerf on any class,  I'd just like to see some lovin' to the class in the AE aspect since we are suppose to be the kings of AE and are specialized in it yet we still get topped by T2 dps classes. </strike><span style="color: #ffff99;">Conjurors arent even remotely close to us DPS wise anymore if anything need to fix summoners</span></div><div>Utility is another thing people would like to see from the warlock. I for one think we have enough utility that is needed but some of our "utility" spells need lovin. <strike>For example our Seal line is the most worthless buff there is. a + to skill castings doesnt do anything. It is a worthless buff and should have never been changed. Everytime for a raid Warlocks are thrown into the "other" dps group since we provide to real big benefits for a top DPS group. People would rather have STR and INT which a Wizard has. </strike><span style="color: #ffff00;">(FIXED, ministration and other skill buffs seem to play a bigger role after combat changes)</span></div><div>People would also like to have Evac or something just as useful instead of our siphoning line. I for one enjoy using the Siphoning line ever since they made the changes to it so it would not require a nil crystal and lowered the cast time. That brings up another problem. <strike>Nil crystals....why do we have to have them? It's a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to stock up on them in the first place as one of the spells that does create them is deemed useless as it is(which i will come to in a minute). Why would we need something in order to cast a spell? Doesnt make any sense to me. Maybe if it was like in T5 when all we needed was on crystal and be able to cast all the spells that required it, it wouldn't be as much of a pain. Either remove nil crystals from the game altogether or make it like it was in T5. </strike><span style="color: #ffff99;">Fixed got rid of nil crystals =]</span></div><div><strike>Just as i stated previously the Curse line in which that reduces Max HP and Power from a mob. What the hell is SOE thinking? Maybe when soloing or something it can be useful but even thats stretching it. In raids it is 100% useless as the mob has a million HP anyways, so what's 900 being taken off gonna do? Nothing. Then they want to put in the reduces power as well. Hah! epic encounters never run out of power too much as they regen at an extreme rate which is why any spell that drains power from an epic encounter is useless, unless of course it gives power back.</strike> <span style="color: #ffff00;">(Semi - Fixed, see below)</span></div><div>Anyways these are just a few concerns I see at the moment but not all so feel free to add more to this thread. I will see to try and get it stickied and hopefully a Dev will come in and give us some feedback as well.</div><div>EDIT: Adding a list of issues to the end of this thread so people will not have to read all the posts.</div><div>Ideas/Suggestions:</div><p>- <strike>Get rid of nil crystals</strike> <span style="color: #ffff99;">Fixed taken out of game</span></p><p>- <strike>Make Curse of Isolation a totally different debuff</strike> - <span style="color: #ffff00;">Semi-Fixed - now has set amount of hp/power it will reduce the encounter by Still needs looked at</span>.<span style="color: #000000;"> <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">My suggestion is to make it so it will reduce all spells resists by 10-15% on target encounter, lasts for 30 seconds.</span></b></span></p><p>- <strike>Fix the AE deaggro spells to decrease more hate </strike>- <span style="color: #ffff00;">FIXED</span></p><p>- <strike>Increase the percentage of the Boon line to something like 5-7%</strike> - <span style="color: #ffff00;">Semi-Fixed was moved up to 4% and buff was made better</span>.</p><p>Basically now it just seems that SOE needs to fix the spell resist rate and then the warlock class IMO and many others is fine the way it is. Change a couple spells and thats about it. I am very very very happy with the way the warlock class is.</p>

[Isult]

<font size="3"><font face="Arial">Perhaps the time has come to reassess the warlock role. Perhaps I'm a heretic, but I for one do not consider warlocks to be a dps class. Poison/Disease= weakening and debilitation, not massive and rapid destruction.So, our role actually is to engage and weaken all the members of a group encounter so that when the tank and assists move to the next member of a target encounter it has already been weakened somewhat by our handiwork.This train of thought also addresses the age old question of aggro-management, as well. Let's face it, we get aggro through irresponsible and obscene outputs of damage in a desperate attempt to try to prove ourselves a dps class instead of working with the good of the group in mind and giving support to those classes that are going to out dps us all the time anyhow. So, stop throwing back to back nukes, stop stacking DoTs and start making more use of debuffs and pillaging. You'll be amazed at how effective it is and how aggro suddenly becomes much more manageable. The ultimate goal should be defeating an encounter not winning some sort of dps award. Also, act responsibly in the group. If you get aggro bring the mob back to the tank. Sure, you'll probably die, but you may just save the majority of your group/raid as well.In the right situations we can shine in dps, but those situations are so few and far between as to be practically non-existent and, in reality, are trivial encounters anyhow.So warlocks of Norrath wake up and embrace reality. Work with the gifts we are given and stop trying to be something we aren't. I for one relish our role and when you stop worrying about out-dpsing classes that can regularly out-dps anyhow you'll really enjoy your profession a lot more.Isultlvl70 WarlockRaiding Warlock of the guild ValorKithicor Server</font></font><div></div>

[Araxes]

<div>Good post overall but I have some thoughts that I've posted below ... I tried to cut it down to nice neat little concise points ...<blockquote><hr>Patrix513 wrote:<div>Someone will say well give us some utility.....well all I have to say about utility is hell no. We are a DPS class, we should deal out the DPS and leave the utility to the Enchanters and Bards.<font color="#ff0000">HEAR HEAR!</font></div> ... but some of our "utility" spells need lovin. For example our Seal line is the most worthless buff there is.<font color="#ff0000">Again - agreed.  It needs to be seriously beefed up - or completely redone into something altogether more useful (damage shield + power drain for self imho)</font> <div> </div> <div>... would also like to have Evac or something just as useful instead of our siphoning line.<font color="#ff0000">I disagree here.I have absolutely ZERO desire for any kind of evac - had it once don't want it back don't miss it at all.  And I think our siphoning line -- although it certainly could do for a shorter recast and a boost in the amount it transfers -- is useful to the immediate group.</font>... Nil crystals....why do we have to have them? <font color="#ff0000">/nod.  I think they are more or less pointless.  I could see them being used for something like a resurrection or a permanent demon summon ... but for things like Rift and Netherlord?  Neither of those spells are worth enough to warrant a cost <i>when </i>the cost is so pitiful ... if that make sense.  (The spells are great.  It's just that the price of a Nil crystal is such a pittance it is ultimately pointless given the strength of the spells using it.)   May as well then do away with the issue of "cost" altogether.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>... the Curse line in which that reduces Max HP and Power from a mob. ... what's 900 being taken off gonna do? <font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Exactly.  Another spell that needs to be completely re-thought and redone into something altogether more useful - or SERIOUSLY beefed up - a percentage base instead of a flat number, for instance.</font></div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote></div>

[Araxes]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Isult wrote:<font size="3"><font face="Arial">Perhaps the time has come to reassess the warlock role. Perhaps I'm a heretic, but I for one do not consider warlocks to be a dps class. Poison/Disease= weakening and debilitation, not massive and rapid destruction.So, our role actually is to engage and weaken all the members of a group encounter so that when the tank and assists move to the next member of a target encounter it has already been weakened somewhat by our handiwork.This train of thought also addresses the age old question of aggro-management, as well. Let's face it, we get aggro through irresponsible and obscene outputs of damage in a desperate attempt to try to prove ourselves a dps class instead of working with the good of the group in mind and giving support to those classes that are going to out dps us all the time anyhow. So, stop throwing back to back nukes, stop stacking DoTs and start making more use of debuffs and pillaging. You'll be amazed at how effective it is and how aggro suddenly becomes much more manageable. The ultimate goal should be defeating an encounter not winning some sort of dps award. Also, act responsibly in the group. If you get aggro bring the mob back to the tank. Sure, you'll probably die, but you may just save the majority of your group/raid as well.In the right situations we can shine in dps, but those situations are so few and far between as to be practically non-existent and, in reality, are trivial encounters anyhow.So warlocks of Norrath wake up and embrace reality. Work with the gifts we are given and stop trying to be something we aren't. I for one relish our role and when you stop worrying about out-dpsing classes that can regularly out-dps anyhow you'll really enjoy your profession a lot more.Isultlvl70 WarlockRaiding Warlock of the guild ValorKithicor Server</font></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry ... but no.  Just.  No.We are a sorcerer class.  Sorcerer = damage.  We give up all else for it - and that's how we want it.  I think every single warlock who posts to these boards would agree on that point  - if nothing else.  (Save you of course.)Making us into a hybrid of necromancer and coercer -- which is essentially what you are stating we are / should become -- makes us LESS useful - not more.What needs to happen is that the focus needs to become MORE focused ... not broader.  <b>Only when we fill a role that NO other class can fill in the SAME way we can or to the same degree we can</b> (which currently does not exist - and not only for warlcoks but for several other classes as well and it's a central flaw in the character system and has been since launch -- and that's really the crux of this whole ongoing raid disparity amongst <i>all </i>the DPS classes) ... then we will start to feel truly useful in all situations across the board.I do agree that it is partly our own use of nukes which gets us aggro.  I've never shied from admitting that and in fact I'm quite proud of it - as I think most mages are in many MMO's (deep down).  That doesn't mean that our entire class should be changed.  We already WERE changed - thoroughly - in LU13.  No thank you.  Work with what we have now and make it BETTER.  Do not do [or suggest] another role change yet again.</div><p>Message Edited by Vicontessa on <span class=date_text>08-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:48 PM</span>

[Silmawyn]

<DIV>the only thing I would like to see gone are the nil crystals...honestly I hate having to make sure I have at least a stack of em before a raid...because quite honestly I don't normally go out just to get nil crystals. Other than that I am pretty happy with the dmg output we can do. the aggro issue I expect since I am nuking the mobs and there is the chance that I could hit hard enough to take hate from the main tank. I have learned to die and die well :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[matinisback]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silmawyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>the only thing I would like to see gone are the nil crystals...honestly I hate having to make sure I have at least a stack of em before a raid...because quite honestly I don't normally go out just to get nil crystals. Other than that I am pretty happy with the dmg output we can do. the aggro issue I expect since I am nuking the mobs and there is the chance that I could hit hard enough to take hate from the main tank. I have learned to die and die well :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agree

[Banshye]

Warlocks were designed to be masters of DoTs - dealing devastating damage, but unlike wizards, aggressive play styles were not to put us at the top of the monsters hate list. (Everquest II: Prima Official Game Guide, 2004, p. 22<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The guide literally says, "on large target encoutners or battles that could last awhile, a Warlocks DoTs are a must have". <u>That </u>was the archtype many of us signed up for and SOE should return us to those origins. Video may have killed the radio-star but LU13 most-certainly killed the warlock.We were designed to be a massive dps class - you can't fault warlocks for wanting to be just that. As far as utility, that was in power conservation but is overlooked with the plethora of items that do that job for us.<div></div>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<DIV> <DIV>Been busy, hope I am not too late in this thread, but after so many months/the past year, it is never too late.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]... where to start. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I'll start off with the warlock's aggro issues. Everyone and their godmother knows that warlocks are infamous for their aggro. Now a lot of people on these boards often find it funny and laugh every time they die but for the raiding warlocks, at least for many of us who have to pay 8gp of repairs for each death, it gets old and is not funny after many months of endless and needless dying. Warlock is like the only class where it is not possible for them to do their full potential other than with amends - and also the fact that if you have a paladin, he would be much better suited to another job in another group than simply the warlock's pet 'amender'. Warlocks are no where near a top choice in a tank group either so you usually see them grouped with a troubador. Now I can bet all my 280 plat no tank in the world can hold aggro against me if I try to maximise my dps even with a troubador and the coercers harmonious buff and the tank having a dirge and coercer for hate buffs. Now don't get me wrong here I am also saying with the right hate reduction, that is currently not available in the game, the warlock will still fall behind many of the other dps classes, so even with amends they will still fall behind, but <EM>in addition</EM> to that the aggro generation of the warlock can [Removed for Content] off anyone who feels like they are dying needlessly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks have to rely on so many other classes just to do their job. The scouts, other than rangers, can do nice dps even without the dps/haste/proc buffs/deaggro. Warlocks with no deaggro can't even use their class defining spell, apocalypse. Even when they do have deaggro and it crits you still have a high chance of getting aggro and if you are not number one the hate list you are defenitely number two. Now brigands also create a lot of hate from their debuffs and single target dps and don't have a passive hate transfer/reduction like the assassin/swashy/ranger but at least they got a lie low type skill to which means instant deaggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After MANY months of not even having one AE deaggro, I was overjoyed when they announced they were going to introduce AE hate reduction on the vulian line. So I hopped on test and I saw that it did a whopping 400 ae hate reduction. Now even my 8 year old nephew can comprehend how useless that is when you even cast your weakest ae. That much hate is LESS than the lvl 31 guardian taunt suppress - it is not going to make any impact at all. But I will go more into this later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok a few months ago they released some notes which many believe gave warlock some love. I cough at that. Ok they gave vulian hate reduction which as I mentioned earlier is u-s-e-l-e-s-s. They added a little hate reduction on null carress which is also crap because you would rarely stand close to the mob for obvious reasons and you don't move around if you can help it since you would lose dps. Even in groups if you wanted to lose aggro you would be teleporting mobs around and that can annoy other players. Neither of these spells achieve their purpose, especially when you have already gotten aggro which is the most important thing. Remember how I mentioned how rogues get an instand deaggro and even summoners, enchanters, healers get ae hate reduction abilities which far outrank the warlocks equally mediocre emergency spell. But wait, weren't warlocks supposed to be AE masters? So why are summoners, enchanters and healers getting these ae hate reduction abilities that are in the thousands and warlocks do not? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Continuing on, they changed some of the warlocks spells during that update. They removed and reduced stun components as part of the grand enchanter fix. They also made a lot of totally useless spells simply useless such as curse of isolation line. There is no point to this spell in the game of EQ2, except to farm nil crystals. The idea of reducing max hp and power needs to be totally scrapped and the spell redone. I would like to now address a lot of the warlock's spells a propose some ideas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vulian line as I said is no more useful than before the change. What I propose for that, as I stated in another thread, is simply to have vulian reduce more hate with everything else in the encounter compared to the targetted mob, so that on a single target you are not reducing as much hate as the wizard's cease.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dark Infestation: For how long was this spell not even working properly? Ok they finally made it a reasonable spell just a few months ago. The problem is it is too situational. It is simply a dumbfire pet where you cannot time the spawn and is based on a random proc. And coupled with the fact that the dot tick is removed once the broodlings proc, it is made a lot less useful on mobs that have ae as you cannot time it and you don't get any dmg from the dot once the broodlings spawn. I believe to give warlocks more flexibility (warlocks are probably the most inconsistent of classes) the dot component needs to remain after the broodlings spawn. This will generally help warlocks a bit on the single target dps department also and not make this spell as useless on mobs which ae which is almost every single raid mob in the game. Even summoners can time their dumbfire pets. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to see Void Absolution's cast time be reduced to 3s. This would make it a bit more viable casting it on single targets and with the downside of it if you were to, would be be using up more power. Also, too many times where I cast this, it only hits one or two targets in a large ae encounters since so many in the AE encounter is already dead as the raid AE dps is so high already these days. Sometimes even before I finish casting it, all the mobs are dead. We specialise in AE, give us a unique upper hand in cast times which is the most important thing - why do you think conjurors do so well in AE?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which brings me to Nebula. It is a spell which is never used on single targets and rarely used on multiple targets because firstly, warlocks already have so many AEs, and secondly even on ae encounters you will rarely use it since mobs either die too quick or it simply does not wield the best dps - it does not wield great dps when there is two targets for example. So on targets where there is three or more, you either get the first mob down in the ae encounter before you are able to use Nebula or you simply don't get around to using it due to the huge cast times on the warlock aes. What I propose is partly due to the fact that warlocks don't really have any real blue aes. Yes we have chaostorm but it is very weak for an AE specialist class and the fact we only have one. We have too many green AEs. I propose Nebula have it's cast time reduced to 2s and made a blue AE or just the latter. I wouldn't even mind if many of the other changes were implemented and they remove Nebula altogether if it were to remain in its current state.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Curse of Isolation is simply useless as mentioned. It needs to be totally redone to a different spell. I am a bit in a hurry at the moment so will think of an idea for this spell later but in its current state, no person with a right mind will use it other than to farm nil crystals. Scourge of Shadows is also mediocre spell for a lvl 59 spell. I will think of some ideas maybe later for these two spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Void Distortion needs to be on a 9s recast, down from 12, it would really help on the single target dps department in which warlocks extremely need. Netheros Realm needs to be on a 1s cast time instead of 3s. It is already inferior to the wizard's surging tempest where the spell actually does part of the damage, the warlock version is just a temp buff like corrupt gift. So while the wizard's tempest dot is ticking away happily, you are still busy trying to cast spells which trigger it, as it is a proactive spell and not a passive spell which runs while your other spells are running. Not to also mention is lasts less time than surging tempest. A lot of the time a warlock would be losing a lot of dps casting that mid fight. And it only lasts 30s with 1.5min recast as it is toggleable, making it a 1s cast would not be overpowered at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure 9 in 10 warlocks would like to rid of the idea of nil crystals altogether. But I doubt that will happen. I would like to formally say that warlocks offer nothing special to a raid. Firstly, both their single target and multi target dps is inferior and draw a lot more aggro in the process. Ok warlocks have a power transfer, wizards also have it and their's is instant. Warlocks lose here. They have a buff which can be cast on a player to give them power when they are hit by mellee - warlocks are rarely if ever in a tank group, so useless, and again the wizard's is instant instead of increasing power over time to the target - o and you always hear people wanting wizards for the int and str buff which is basically dps personified - where do a lot of people's nice stats, especially dps scouts, come from? From this wizard's buff. Which brings me to the warlock's seal. If you have done any testing you will know this buff is nothing more than useless. And guess just one other class which has this kind of buff - troubadors funnily enough. Warlocks have a power and noxious resist buff, every mage has the power buff and dirges, shaman, necros etc all have the noxious buff. Warlocks have a str and int debuff. LoL. I know so many classes off the top of my head with debuffs which are 10x better and in the case of debuffing str and int, debuff more of it, so again, nothing unique. Warlocks lose again. Warlocks also have no evac. Warlocks lose again, although personally it is not a big deal but every now and then it does come in handy. Warlocks have a mellee proc buff - a lot of other classes have proc buffs although since the warlock one is different, it will stack with the others I will give you that. Warlocks have a over time power regen for the group. I will give you that this spell is maybe the only unique spell the warlock has. But lets be honest here, if you really needed power regen, in which if you are warlock you are probably with a troub and/or illusionist, you would like a bard or chanter. Excluding the permanent power regen buff, coercers alone will regen more power with their spells such as mind's eye, and another one which debuffs int and grants the group power over time. O and don't forget about stuff like channel and mana cloak. I don't think I need to say more. Warlocks lose in raid usefulness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding all the main dps classes, warlocks fall well short. Any top raid guild will tell you that. All these problems add on and compound and the problems escalate to the reason why warlocks are simply incapable of keeping up. Now I know one could say this is about warlocks and not about other classes, but without a medium and relativity, there is no meaning at all in this discussion. If warlock was the only dps class you could bring, then there would not be one problem. So SOE proposed that warlocks were a part of the t1 dps group. Even though they regretted giving out that info I believe that still stands, they just regretted giving the specific info out as now people are basing a lot of arguments towards it. With the exception of the ranger, the warlock does not match up to brigands, swashies, wizards, assassins, conjurors and necros in several different characteristics. In terms of single target dps, well all of them have the potential to do more. Regarding AE dps, now warlock is maybe a top 3 candidate there but as I have mentioned before, there are aggro issues and EVEN if those aggro issues were negated, they still are not capable of beating a competent conjuror, or even a necro or swashy or wizard. Too many of them match up to the warlock for being an AE emphasised class. Even my assassin owns in ae encounters. It is not as if you can't use powerful single target abilities on AE encounters. Even rangers are not as [Removed for Content] on AE encounters - did I just mention all the other dps classes? Also, ae dps in raids is so large that you would never be needing anymore ae dps than what you can currently get in all the other classes combined - remember, warlocks are not even no1 in ae dps even though they were proposed at t1 and is supposed to be the AE king of t1. On AE encounters, just say your raid does 20k dps. Will you bring a warlock just so you could do 20.5k raid dps? Take into consideration warlocks only excel in extremely large ae encounters - with the right deaggro - and don't come close to the others on singles and twos which is what most of this game is comprised of. Do you see my point? It is not like you are losing much if you are down a few hundred dps on a 15 sec AE trash encounter. The only time when you don't feel as [Removed for Content] is either when your guildies are slacking or in Lyceum, those are the times when the warlock can at least feel a little better about themselves. See mr dev how one warlock problem compounds to another?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The warlock class is just not a serious class at this point in time, there are too many weaknesses to be exploited, even in the one heroic zone that maybe matters, Nizara, you have a mezzer so you cannot use AEs or use dark infestation, so you can only pick out singles with your weaker spells so you are next to useless once again. If you are a casual player that soloes or groups occasionally then yea, the warlock can be fine most of the time, but as a serious class to consider for the end game and to have a lustrous EQ2 journey, then I sincerely wouldn't recommend it in its current state. You will also hear in a lot of places that warlocks are good at killing ae trash mobs. Even though that is not true, is that how people want the warlock to be invisioned? A trash killing class? If you just look at conjurors, they do more, AND do more on singles AND offer better and unique utility AND do it with much less aggro AND two conjurors over a conj and a warlock would mean shards are given out faster, the list goes on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks are not meant to be the best single target dps, <I>that is for sure</I>, but a dev DID say that warlocks were meant to be part of the t1 dps classes. Hence even on single targets warlocks should outdamage conjurors, necros, swashies, brigands but they would come relatively close yes? That is not the case atm, warlocks fall behind all of the t1 or t2 dps classes on single target dps (except ranger), especially when there is mezzing which is another reason why warlocks are said to be so situational. If warlocks did the least on single target dps compared to wizards, assassins and rangers, <I>that is perfectly fine</I>, but it is not the case as I said and is well known in top raid guilds. Again, when everyone is trying do warlocks make top 3 on zone/named parses?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I know a lot of you don't like WoW, but I am going to refer to a single component of gameplay of WoW. Both EQ2 and WoW have their strong points in combat but in the case I am about to address, WoW has the upper hand. If you look at WoW, AE actually matters and is a treat to have, and when you need it, you call upon the mage there. Why? Because they are the only class which have good AEs of any sort and hence offer a unique hand in dealing AE dmg. This makes the mage in WoW a very viable class to have when you require AE dmg. It is not like that in EQ2 and with the warlock class in EQ2. When they branded the warlock an AE specialist class at the beginning of DoF, in which most rejected, they became obselete then because AE is nothing special in this game and being an AE specialist class, you are even worse off. And if you look at the way AE works in WoW, they actually have instant cast AEs and affects everything around you and some where you can even self target a certain area, and <I>only</I> the mage has the most powerful ones, the others classes don't even compare. In EQ2, all AEs require you to stand there for a few secs and <I>every</I> class has them - that's right - EVERY. Do you see now why being an 'AE specialist class' that is the warlock is nothing special at all in this game? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have my assassin now as many know, but yet I still post about the warlock issues. Why? Because having gotten both of them in full masters and raid leg/fabled I know first hand how mediocre the warlock class compares - <EM>first hand</EM>. I know both the classes' potential on every encounter with the exception of Chel'Drak as I haven't raided with my warlock on Chel yet. But it is not like we are missing a warlock or failing miserably without one - no we do fine. There is no more than a handful of named encounters in the game where my warlock would beat the assassin, and the only zone my warlock would outparse my assassin is in Lyceum, but not by much at all. I also forgot to mention that my warlock has more than double the number of damage proc items than my assassin simply because the only proc items you can get as a scout are weapons and the collection quest earring.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Fixed some typos and incoherent sentences. Was in a rush tbh when I wrote this. And I can't believe [Removed for Content] is censored and [Removed for Content] is not.</DIV><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 PM</span>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], I just realised how long that was :smileywink: but it is really only a summary. I did not really go into any real detail and I bet I missed out on some info. If it really hurts anyone's eyes, just save half for another day :smileytongue: All this is coming out simply because I endured for so long and know it like I know my bedroom.</DIV>

[Nizmar]

<P>I agree Warlocks are pitiful right now, and I think most warlocks would agree that we need revamping.</P> <P>But here is the TRUE problem with warlocks:  Where are the Dev's during all this?  </P> <P>Do they not see that one class is utterly useless?  Is it they really don't care about Warlocks?  Do they think they are fine because we don't don't complain and whine as much as other classes may?  When has a Dev visited this forum anyways?</P> <P>I personally feel that it doesn't matter what any of us say here on this forum, because it falls on deaf ears.</P> <P>If they do change warlock, it tends to be for the worse, so we may as well accept it and make an alt.</P>

[Banshye]

<P>SmEaGoLLuM86, while your post is like reading War and Peace, you're on the mark. I raid with my warlock and I parse with my warlock and there are precious few raid-encounters (notably as you mentioned, Lyceum) where I can out-parse the other classes. I believe on this weekends Lyceum run, I out-parsed the necro once... why only once? Because in order to stay alive I have to wait a good 20-30 seconds to throw anything but single target stuff and only then do I have the confidence to throw a really useless AE spell like Nebula. All the while, the necro and every other dps class is throwing anything they please and not getting any grief for it. The rest of the fight I'm spending so much time casting my deaggros that I just can't keep up [read "catch up"] with other AE classes.</P> <P>Paladins will hold aggro if I've got their amends but if we happen to have a paladin raid-tanking his amends is going elsewhere, like a monk. Berserkers will hold aggro simply because they are doing more AE damage than me anyway (what gives with that? They get all that damage mitigation AND warlock-level AE dps? Dosen't seem equitable.) Guardians/SKs simply can not hold aggro off me if I AE to even 50% of my capability.</P> <P>I'll try to post some parses later but usually I'm getting dead if I'm higher then 5-6th place in dps on a raid parse so something is amiss and I wish the Devs would speak to it. I've apparently earned the ire of a moderator so good luck with this discussion and in getting the earnest attention of the Devs.</P>

[Diapause]

<P>SmEaGoLLuM86,</P> <P>Great post and summary. I suggest you cut it out and make a seperate post that can be stickied for higher visability.</P> <P>Quattra - 70Warlock</P>

[emagine]

I don't know how much attention this will bring, I know i posted about this topic back in the day, and there were several attempts by us warlocks to get our issues resolved.... anyways... from the previous posts.... Ill just sum this up...    1) Get rid of our nil crystals, we have several spells that require them, and stack of 100 usually lasts maybe a night of raiding, then you have to spend a couple hours the next day on gray group mobs to try and stock up on them.... Its pretty pointless.    2) AGGRO- just flat out horrible..... definately needs adjusting and looked into.... (pref by someone that raids with a warlock).. but if that was done im sure the agro issue would of been fixed along time ago... (ex.. a conj can do 2k dmg and not pull agro i do 900ish and i can pull)    3) DMG- yes i would like to see our dmg increase... actually what would help is a<b> </b>lil <font size="-1">manipulation of our spells. Our margin of dmg is such a range between a high hit and low hit... for example like Void Distortion 1951-3623 </font>(a differance of (1672 dmg), i can keep showing you the huge margin of error we have per spell... and it sucks... possibly makin the margin of error between high and low hits narrower would increase our dmg output.    4) Curse of isolation, would be nice if it was an equationed debuff.... 10% for heroic mobs, 1% for raid mobs...anyways i posted these suggestions a couple of times maybe well get some insight from this post....Formerly known as Mimix<div></div>

[MilkToa]

<DIV>I have retired my warlock and will not play him again until the 'AE specialist' role is abandoned. I played my warlock from release through the KoS and find the AE role too limiting, frustrating and unsatisfying. I don't want to do T1 damage on just groups of trash mobs, I want to do T1 damage on the named mobs in raid zones - until that changes nothing else matters. If you revert back to a more balanced single target damage / AE damage spell mix many of the other problems would be less of an issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I love my warlock but he's just to painful to play in his current state.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by MilkToast on <span class=date_text>08-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 PM</span>

[Dyshar]

Yeah i made my warlock back in january of 05 but i have given up on him for my illusionist,  I can pump out alot of dmg while having utility also.  The warlock class i s a joke now.  The true AE specialist is the Conjuror.

[Victicu]

Warlocks are currently in pretty bad shape.  Poor utility, poor damage, poor aggro control.  There have already been some good ideas mentioned in this thread to remedy some of those problems.As far as our aggro problem goes, I think an aggro-transfer spell would work well for us.  Two scout classes get an aggro transfer, so why cant one mage class get one.  Something as simpl as that would go a very very long way into solving our aggro problems.Our DPS problems are a bit different.  Warlocks simply lack the tools to achieve tier 1 dps.  With our current spells and abilities its just not possible for a warlock to really shine dps wise.   In every situation another class will always outshine the warlock.  Like xede said, I can go into some encounters, throwing out AE after AE and thinking theres no way any other class beat me on this parse.  Then to my surpirse im 5th or 6th on the parse.  Alot of our spells just need complete overhauls, not only changes to the damage numbers but cast and recast times also.<div></div>

[Meattray]

<P>I want to add to this tread:</P> <P>I have a 70 Fury (Main that i raid with) 70 Warlock, 70 Guard (I have tanked a couple of T7 raid Zones with my Guard from start to finsh)</P> <P>My guild has sometimes needed a tank, and my guard has been used a number times to tank raid zones.</P> <P>My guild does not have high dps, and never has my warlock been asked to come on raid, only once when i asked could i take my warlock.  My point is if my guild needed a extra DPS the warlock is the last person to be invited to a raid, 2 perceptions of the warlock class is that they pul agro all over the place and they lack DPS.</P> <P>A warlock is usally the last person to get a invite to a group as we pull agro all over the place unless we have a pally tanking.</P> <P> </P> <P>Some of the problems i see is the AE agro reductions we have are not strong enough, we really need some type of passive deagros, i think a assasin get a agro transfer plus 2-3 other deagro's !   +   the amount of damage summoner classes can do before pulling agro is very high, they just dont get much agro.</P> <P>Some of our Damage spell ranges are very large, and the damage our dots do are really crap.  My furies dots do just as much damage as my warlock (not counter T6 special spells)</P> <P> </P> <P>But the BIGGEST problem i see is the difference/gap from Sorc & caster DPS to melee DPS is going to get wider and wider.  I think as melee classes get better weapons per tier, upgraded CA's (this include Necros and Conj as they get melee pets) there damage gets higher and higher.  While Sorc's only gets there main benifit to damage from upgraded spells.</P> <P>Dev's you know there is a problem with our agro, you gave us 2 new AE deagro spells but they just not enough.</P> <P>Can you pls come to our forums and give us some comment, you can spare the time for rangers what about us?  I know there are not many warlocks any more, but we are still around.</P> <P>Taylon 70 Fury</P> <P>Sorann 70 Guardian</P> <P>Nukette 70 Warlock</P> <P>Najena</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Wirdru]

On lyceum runs i parse higher than everyone almost every fight. 1200 -1600 dps average fight names are 800-1k

[Fyzzl]

<DIV>Aggro  and DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a raiding warlock I am always near or at the top. I can and do out DPS  wiz, ranja's, assasins, conj, zerkers etc. I have little problem doing well over 1000 dps in Lyceum and Labs. And if you every want to go play and feel like a true god  drag you guild back and do Poet's Palace: The return (sp) I have parsed over 2900 in there.  And I have NO issues with agro, becasue I always have a pally or troubadour in the group. We genterate TONS of agro  becasue we do incredible amounts of DPS. Tanks do not have sufficient in and out of  encounter group taunts to hold agro on the other mobs in the group.  IF you want the correct fix. Head over to the tank forums and beg for better aoe taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes every thing is Adpet3 or better, Yes I have prismatic 2, the earring and the BCG.   Yes i have 49 aa and have the 8% inc in dmg the 22% on any one spell and the 12% cost reduction AA, The 10% de agro aa and the Agro debuff  Robe. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suggest not calling attention to the class at all. Everytime the dev's do the muck something up. We are NOT broken. Raiding guild that do not see the worth of a warlock have never raided correctly with one. We reduce the trash killing time, burn adds down like mad and make some encounters almsot trivial ( try a pally as tank with a warlock for the named in labs with the huge dmg shield). Our  mana recovry abilites (this could be better) are often over looked and discounted but are a very nice on long fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OK I have rambled enough. There are few enough warlocks out there and when a group or raid sees one played  with the proper support. Lets just say I get a huge ego rush when the group raid  see the parse, the moutains of dead corpses  and all they can say is.. Dam, I didnt know warlocks could do that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fyzzl</DIV> <DIV>GL of Twisted Priorites</DIV> <DIV>Over Nukers Anon - Not just a member </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Banshye]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nizmarck wrote:<BR> <P>But here is the TRUE problem with warlocks:  Where are the Dev's during all this? </P> <P>Do they not see that one class is utterly useless?  Is it they really don't care about Warlocks?  Do they think they are fine because we don't don't complain and whine as much as other classes may?  When has a Dev visited this forum anyways?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's pretty difficult to ascertain the last time a Dev *visited* this forum but I can tell you the last time a Dev posted here, it was <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=14329#M14329" target=_blank>Lockeye on Nov 7, 2005</A>.<BR>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I wasn't even gonna bother replying to you baccus but your cluelessness warrants some clearing up. Firstly your guild is not even a top 5 raid guild on the server, let alone worldwide, notice how the most of us here are in top 5 worldwide raid guilds? You are bragging about doing well over 1kdps in lyceum? Haha I do well over 5k sometimes in there on my warlock and average is over 2k, but guess what? That is still not top. You raid dps must be really low, are your other members doing like 600 dps? Now you mention a few zones where warlocks are a bit less [Removed for Content], how about I mention some other zones ok? You guys started HoS yet? Warlocks are near the top in labs? Either of the Ascent dragons? Harla Dar? You even have access to DT yet? Hurricanus? MO? Princes? Chel'Drak? Matron? So you feel good about yourself when you say you feel like a god - the fact that you say you drag your guild (since you are the guild leader) into poets sounds like you are a spoilt guy in raids, spoiling yourselves with buffs while the others are not as well off eh? Let me quote you specifically here. You said 'And if you every want to go play and feel like a true god  drag you guild back and do Poet's Palace: The return (sp)....'. I bet it's not just me that believes you are simply there for yourself to top the dps with what you plan and set for your guild and just spoiling your own self. Quote: 'Raiding guild that do not see the worth of a warlock have never raided correctly with one.' Usually people who say that are in raid guilds that are actually good. Your achievements please? I wouldn't be talking that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in your position. Quote: 'We... make some encounters almsot trivial.' You got brigand and warlock mixed up all of a sudden? Quote: 'try a pally as tank with a warlock for the named in labs with the huge dmg shield.' A wizard would be much better suited for that role.You don't even have 95% masters? Do the other guys you raid with even have any masters? When we compare, we base it off even buffs and all of us having at least 95% masters. How about I come to one of your raids and see if I can pull aggro? I'll bet you 280pp that I do. If I don't, then you will only have to pay me 100pp, fair? We can both just have a troub. You have aria proc buff, precision of the maestro and the deaggro, I just have the attack speed and deaggro buffs. If you could come to a contested raid with us or 99% of named mobs in this game for that matter, you would see how [Removed for Content] you were - you would not be able to touch my assassin in dps. That's right - my assassin would be <i>your</i> god. Just because your others members either suck, aren't as well geared and mastered, put in an amateur group setting environment, or a combinatino of all that, does not make an even comparison. Not only that, in the end you still only name two t7 raids and one t6 raid where your other members are simply gimped, and mostly likely by your own doing as you are the guild leader. I am not picking on you btw so don't feel all offended, just pointing out your bias and your beliefs without reference to what you actually conceive. Good luck farming your t6 raids though just so you can feel better about yourself.<div></div><p>Edit: I just read some of your other posts and realised I just wasted my time replying to you.  Time for bed, this is enough owning for one day.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:13 AM</span>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><div></div>It's funny, Banshye, looking back at those old posts. Notice how Lockeye contradicts himself in his second post in trying to explain further why he believes it is useful - he basically implied why the spell is useless in his explaination. What's not so funny is how these issues were brought up many many months ago and still stand today. Trust me Lockeye, I have done WAY more testing than you, not only from your last post here until now, but even before then. Lockeye also forgot something when he said how the seal buff wields a better dps increase than a int and str buff, did he forget that that buff increases every single class's dps and hence the whole group whereas the seal buff 'supposedly' only affects casters? His % comparisons were only of a solo player as well. These are the same guys who post parses where rangers and troubadors beat assassins and conjurors. Do you guys have any grip on your own game? I am really believing their so called server parses are flawed. There are a lot of bots which are warlocks, all they do all day is kill groups of down arrow mobs with devastation. Hence those fights would be short and the dps parse high - I mean they only cast one spell. Therefore the server parses would have a relatively higher parse of warlocks due to these kind of discrepancies. I bet this kind of example is where a lot of the flawed parses are coming from.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 AM</span>

[Fael]

Hmmm.  Lots of interesting things posted.  Im too low level to have the huge issues everyone else does. One thing that did strike me is the comment about Warlocks being "a DOT class".  Boggle.  I bought the game during release.  It wasnt.  Have quit and come back three times.  Hasnt been a DOT class whenever Ive been around.  Not sure about Prima guides.  I never buy them because they are always wrong.The devs have put out plenty of times that Warlock and Wizard are the main nuking classes, with Warlocks being poison and disease, and Wizards being Fire and Cold.  Warlocks being AE came during the combat revamp I believe, but I wasnt around when it happened so Im not positive.I do know that I DONT want the Warlocks to be a DOT class.  Thats Necros job IMO.Mal<div></div>

[Banshye]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelos wrote:<BR>Hmmm.  Lots of interesting things posted.  Im too low level to have the huge issues everyone else does. <BR><BR>One thing that did strike me is the comment about Warlocks being "a DOT class".  Boggle.  I bought the game during release.  It wasnt.  Have quit and come back three times.  Hasnt been a DOT class whenever Ive been around.  <BR><BR>Not sure about Prima guides.  I never buy them because they are always wrong.<BR><BR>The devs have put out plenty of times that Warlock and Wizard are the main nuking classes, with Warlocks being poison and disease, and Wizards being Fire and Cold.  Warlocks being AE came during the combat revamp I believe, but I wasnt around when it happened so Im not positive.<BR><BR>I do know that I DONT want the Warlocks to be a DOT class.  Thats Necros job IMO.<BR><BR>Mal<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The Warlocks AE focus came September 13th, 2005. Prior to that, we were the best nuking class in the game. But DOTs have always been a part of the Warlock game and continue to be... after all, what is apoc but an AE dot?<BR></P>

[Xede]

<DIV>some of you guys have valid posts but the othere please keep the nonsense and bickering out of this thread. This is here to help the warlock class.</DIV>

[Victicu]

<div></div>Whoever said they outdps everyone on their raid with 1000 dps at lyceum and labs.  i lol.

[SmEaGoLLuM]

Yo, I was just pointing out how wrong in every way that person was and backed it up with good reason. It just ended up longer cos there were so many things said that were either wrong or biased. Don't see anything wrong with that <SPAN>:smileywink: I could have just said what Vic said yea haha. I need to learn how to ignore misinformed people.<BR><BR>Regarding what I said would be a good change for our aggro earlier. Now that I think about it more, increasing the deaggro on vulian is not going to do much unless it is made like 10k hate reduction on everything else in the encounter. That is not possible. Hence a straight hate reduction or transfer is the only way to go here. The dot damage on scourge of shadows needs to be increased, simple as that.<BR></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Right now it is just not possible for a warlock or ranger to top the dps. I totally agree with most when they say it just depends on the player behind the character, but only for all the others dps classes - assassins, brigands, swashies, conjs, necros, wizards - all of them have a chance at getting top depending on the upgrades, buffs, situation and player. Whereas for warlocks and rangers, it is just not mechanically possible to do this. They totally screwed the t1 and t2 status of the dps classes, so the only way they can redeem it imo is to have all of them be a viable choice for a dps position, and hence buffing warlocks and rangers in some way.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[Meattray]

<P>my opion on a summary so far</P> <P>We need:</P> <P>A passive deagro or agro transfer for both Wiz and warlock (what ever is done to 1 class has to have some balance to the other class)</P> <P>A bit more damage to our dots, make them worth casting</P> <P>A bit more deagro on our new AE deagro spells</P> <P> </P> <P>Dont make us to be so relient on other classes to reduce the amount of agro we generate, there are very few troubs now.</P> <P>While we are at it, can you please please give some loving to bards, my warlock has been in maybe 3-5 groups in last 3-4 months with a troub, there are none, and the ones around want to leave cause there not fun to play anymore.</P> <P>Our guild has been trying for over 1 YEAR to get a troub to take on raids, they are that rare and we still dont have one.....</P> <P>Nukette 70 Warlock</P> <P>Najena</P>

[Banshye]

I agree that some sort of hate-transfer might actually give us some real innate value in a group or raid.  As much hate as we generate, instead of that being our deficiency, let it be our utility.  With a hate-transfer, the harder a warlock works the better the tank would hold aggro.

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<P>I thought more on it and believe the best would be to have the familiar have a larger hate reduction rather than just 2.5%. Around 35% would be a good value and wizards would benefit as well. This way no spells need to shifted etc to compensate for a better deaggro or passive deaggro/transfer. 99% of sorcs use a 1hander, hence everyone would be getting the hate reduction from the familiar anyway, the rest such as increased crit chance can be removed as I'm sure any right minded sorc would want hate reduction more than anything else. Having it as the first AA point, sorcs can have deaggro even at the lower lvls. No spells need to be changed to a hate transfe/reduction making this the best and easiest option. Also, this way, it would not a be all end all deaggro either, as you would have to protect the pet from dying otherwise all the hate would be attributed to you. Kind of like summoners except our pet does not do anything else.</P>

[Banshye]

<P>Well a pally amends master 1 is 41% hate transfer as I recall... so if we could approach that with a reverse-amends, even if it didn't actually stack with amends, I'd be giddy with delight.</P> <P>Your 35% sounds right to me.</P>

[hoosierdaddy]

<P>It's absurd that sorcerors are reliant upon paladins/troubadors in order to even begin to approach the dps many other supposedly T2 dps classes are producing--summoners/brigands/swashies--without dying. As a sorceror without a troub or a pally's Amends, expect to die often, and, without a troub, to be outdamaged by classes with far better mitigation/utility/hate transfer than you. And no raiding guild worth their salt is going to place a pally in the dps group for the sake of a single caster, nor should they be forced to.</P> <P>As a matter of fact, I issue a challenge: Can anyone give me a logical and sincere answer as to why anyone would choose to play a class with no armor, no pet, no evac/tracking/feign death/safefall/rez, etc (i.e. sorceror), in order to be outdamaged by classes that enjoy these luxuries?</P> <P>We need:</P> <P>1) <STRONG>Passive Deaggro</STRONG>--for warlocks, a percentage of our hate "disappears into the void/nether region" or whatever. i don't care what lore you use to explain it, but it's time we had a passive deaggro like scouts enjoy. The deaggros which have been provided are wholly inadequate and casting them eats away at your dps.</P> <P>2) <STRONG>Decrease range in spell damage</STRONG>. The min-max dmg on some spells nears 40%. When your Master 1 Void Distortion hits for 2300 (less than Dark Distortion Master 1 pre-LU13), you feel like hanging up your robes.</P> <P>3) <STRONG>Scrap Dark Infestation</STRONG>. You guys tried, you really did. But this spell has never worked properly. Ever. Broodlings break mezzes on raids and account for such a portion of our damage that being forced not to use them kills our dps. My suggestion is to make it a long duration, single-target dot that hits for 500-800/tick for 45 sec's with a 1 minute recast. Our only real dots (war pyre and scourge of shadows) are weak sauce compared to the auto-attack damage scouts are producing with haste/dps buffs.</P> <P>4) <STRONG>Scrap Nil crystals</STRONG>. At 70/70/50 and a full-time raider, I don't have six hours a week to dedicate to farming gray mobs. No other T1 dps class has to farm anything in order to be there. The excuse about power is no longer valid, as an equivalently equipped wizard runs out of power no sooner than a warlock.</P> <P>5) <STRONG>Make Curse Lines worth casting</STRONG>. 800 hp/pow reduction to a raid mob? Are you serious?</P> <P>I could go on, but this is a good start. I just seriously resent having to bend over backwards in order to try keeping up with classes in terms of damage who knowingly enjoy far, far, far more utility than warlocks. Before you judge, I have a 50 brigand and would love any of his utilities on my warlock that scouts seem to have come to take for granted (like tracking/safefall,etc).</P> <P>At some point, devs said they wanted a member of every class to be essential to a raid. I'm not certain of our essentiality in light of damage comparisons with other classes who bring far more to raids than us.</P> <P>-Kai</P>

[Wirdru]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> Whoever said they outdps everyone on their raid with 1000 dps at lyceum and labs.  i lol.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If your talking about me i meant to say i out parse everyone on most the trash fights with 1600 dps etc..</P> <P> </P> <P>and the 800-1kdps on names was just general im not top parse for names </P>

[Wirdru]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote:<BR> Yo, I was just pointing out how wrong in every way that person was and backed it up with good reason. It just ended up longer cos there were so many things said that were either wrong or biased. Don't see anything wrong with that <SPAN>:smileywink: I could have just said what Vic said yea haha. I need to learn how to ignore misinformed people.<BR><BR>Regarding what I said would be a good change for our aggro earlier. Now that I think about it more, increasing the deaggro on vulian is not going to do much unless it is made like 10k hate reduction on everything else in the encounter. That is not possible. Hence a straight hate reduction or transfer is the only way to go here. The dot damage on scourge of shadows needs to be increased, simple as that.<BR></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Right now it is just not possible for a warlock or ranger to top the dps. I totally agree with most when they say it just depends on the player behind the character, but only for all the others dps classes - assassins, brigands, swashies, conjs, necros, wizards - all of them have a chance at getting top depending on the upgrades, buffs, situation and player. Whereas for warlocks and rangers, it is just not mechanically possible to do this. They totally screwed the t1 and t2 status of the dps classes, so the only way they can redeem it imo is to have all of them be a viable choice for a dps position, and hence buffing warlocks and rangers in some way.</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i feel bad if u have never ever made top parse including more than one mob in an encounter</DIV>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Wirdrune wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote: <div></div> <div></div>Yo, I was just pointing out how wrong in every way that person was and backed it up with good reason. It just ended up longer cos there were so many things said that were either wrong or biased. Don't see anything wrong with that <span>:smileywink: I could have just said what Vic said yea haha. I need to learn how to ignore misinformed people.Regarding what I said would be a good change for our aggro earlier. Now that I think about it more, increasing the deaggro on vulian is not going to do much unless it is made like 10k hate reduction on everything else in the encounter. That is not possible. Hence a straight hate reduction or transfer is the only way to go here. The dot damage on scourge of shadows needs to be increased, simple as that.</span> <div></div> <p><span class="time_text">Right now it is just not possible for a warlock or ranger to top the dps. I totally agree with most when they say it just depends on the player behind the character, but only for all the others dps classes - assassins, brigands, swashies, conjs, necros, wizards - all of them have a chance at getting top depending on the upgrades, buffs, situation and player. Whereas for warlocks and rangers, it is just not mechanically possible to do this. They totally screwed the t1 and t2 status of the dps classes, so the only way they can redeem it imo is to have all of them be a viable choice for a dps position, and hence buffing warlocks and rangers in some way.</span></p> <p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class="date_text">08-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:50 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>i feel bad if u have never ever made top parse including more than one mob in an encounter</div><hr></blockquote>Did I say I never topped a parse? I said with so many buffs on me and the rare occurence of a huge AE encounter, warlocks do not top the parse often enough, if at all if say a conjuror is not slacking and equally buffed, for a t1 dps class focused on AE (the idea should be scrapped altogether). And overall, it is a mediocre class in comparison to the other dps classes except ranger. I am not gonna go into more detail just for you, go and read my other posts in this thread. One liners do not look good for your argument, cos you know you will just get owned if you post something like that? Btw my worst parse would be higher than your best parse so I wouldn't be talking too much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Topping the parse when everyone else is asleep or simply amateur does not count mate. Can you tell me how many raids you have done and what you are basing your info on? I am basing my proof on every single t7 raid in the game. The only argument so far from people like you is 'ooo I top Lyceum trash mobs, hence you don't know how to play!' Lastly, my post and Vic's post weren't even directed at you, but now you equally look like a fool.</div><p>P.S Well said Kairos and good addition to this thread. See how posts with backed up info are ftw?<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 PM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Wirdrune wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> Whoever said they outdps everyone on their raid with 1000 dps at lyceum and labs.  i lol.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If your talking about me i meant to say i out parse everyone on most the trash fights with 1600 dps etc..</P> <P> </P> <P>and the 800-1kdps on names was just general im not top parse for names </P><hr></blockquote> Then your conjurors and necros suck, because they should be doing 2-3k on the trash, and 1.6k is nowhere near enough to beat them.

[Banshye]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <P>Then your conjurors and necros suck, because they should be doing 2-3k on the trash, and 1.6k is nowhere near enough to beat them.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No joke, I think I beat our necro 1x in Lyceum last week - he must have fallen asleep at the keyboard.

[SmEaGoLLuM]

So...I'm gonna give my ideas on what needs to be done briefly. Now I know I am at a dangerous crossroads by suggesting these specifically as the devs might have a sort of egotistical belief where they would think 'as if we would be listening to what needs to be done from a player' as they would rarely change what players suggest specifically and usually go the opposite way. So I hope I won't be regretting this later on but it really needs to be done. My reasons are pointed out in my first post in this thread if you want to know them. I would also love to have the 'AE specialist' idea removed completely as it is flawed in many ways and basically a wizard like class but dealing with poison and disease. Some main differences would be ice nova and apocalypse of course.War Pyre's damage needs to be increased slightly. A 450 initial hit and 250 dmg dot at lvl 70 and master lvl is pitiful. Simple as that.Void Distortion's recast time needs to be reduced to 9s.Soul Blister's recast needs to be reduced to 3s, down from 4s.Dark Infestation's dot needs to continue once the broodlings have procced.Nebula's cast time needs to be reduced to 2.5s and made a blue AE.Void Absolution needs to have a 3s cast time.Netherous Realm's cast time needs to be reduced to 1s and duration increased to 45s. 30s is too short for a proactive spell which requires other spells to land and the fact warlock spells have long cast times, you do not get many spells off in 30s.Scourge of Shadows' dot dmg needs to be increased moderately.The Seal and Curse of Isolation lines need to be totally revamped and changed into something else. I still haven't thought of any really striking ideas and any ideas from people would be welcome.A lot of you might be thinking these changes would be overpowering - they will be not, believe me. A lot of them are minor changes and warlocks really need these benefits at this point in time. These changes prescribed above would really help and might give the class some credibility for once. These changes are coming from a warlock whos experience has involved every single raid mob in the game with the exception of Chel'Drak and Matron as I retired my warlock during the AP and playing it casually of course. I know my assassin would still be topping dps on average with these changes but the gap would be thinner.Regarding hate, as I mentioned above, I believe the familiar sorcs get from their first AA should reduce 35% of the sorc's hate if it is up. It would be a good value and wizards would benefit as well. This way no spells need to shifted etc to compensate for a better deaggro or passive deaggro/transfer. 99% of sorcs use a 1hander, hence everyone would be getting the hate reduction from the familiar anyway, the rest such as increased crit chance can be removed as I'm sure any right minded sorc would want hate reduction more than anything else. Having it as the first AA point, sorcs can have deaggro even at the lower lvls. No spells need to be changed to a hate transfe/reduction making this the best and easiest option. Also, this way, it would not ba a be all end all deaggro either, as you would have to protect the pet from dying otherwise all the hate would be attributed to you. Kind of like summoners except our pet does not do anything else.<div></div>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<P>Agree with all of them.<BR>Seal Line Idea..</P> <P>Replace with..<BR><BR>Curse of the Carrier.<BR>A group Augmentation that infects the group with a <Insert Disease name here> Disease, all group members wil become carriers of the disease and will spread a harmful form of the disease to surrounding encounters.</P> <P>Target : Group AE.<BR>Concentration: 1.<BR>Casting Time: 3s<BR>Recovery Time: 0.5s<BR>Recast Time: 10s<BR>Duration:Until Cancelled<BR>Effect Radius: 50m</P> <P>Effect:<BR>Enemey encouters within a 2m Radius of any of the casters Group members will be infected with <Insert  Disease name here>, lasts until the enemy encounter is out of the 2m range.</P> <P>Reduces Health of Target by 30 -40 instantly and every 4 seconds.</P> <P><BR>Just an Idea but it would fit in well with our class, be unique, be easy to code (just add an AOE surrounding every group member of very small range that is always on) and get rid of a redundant spell for one that is beneficial.<BR><BR>Not had many thoughts on the Curse line yet though :smileysad:, only thing I can come up with is some form of fatigue spell that increases a mobs casting times (because the have been infected :smileyvery-happy:  )<BR><BR>*Edit* one of the Smilies was screwed :smileytongue:</P><p>Message Edited by Soul_Dreamer on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 AM</span>

[Lurch72]

<P>Parses are relative guideposts, nothing more, nothing less.   Depending on your raid composition and group setup, they really don't prove a whole lot, can vary widely, and posting them here as evidence of much of anything is useless.  </P> <P>To keep on topic, Xede has a pretty solid grip on the issues.  </P> <P>Nil Crystals are an obstacle to performance that I have never understood.  The implication is that we have so much power that we have to cash in these little "rewards" to use it.   I go on crystal farming expeditions every now and again to stock up a few hundred of them, just so I don't have to deal with that annoying little "Missing Component" message when you try to set off Gift or Pillaging.   They need to be done away with, period.</P> <P>The Pillaging line is a good idea that has been poorly implemented.   You must have a Master quality version of it for it to be worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and even though I do, I always find myself wondering if I am not wasting the 2.6 seconds it takes to cast it.   If you are going to insist on us having this spell, make it at least as good as an Adept 3 Ruinous Heart from a necro... (Pillaging feeds you 27 power a tick at M1 versus 63 per tick for a heart at Adept 3)</P> <P>As far as raid DPS goes, the steps my guild has to take to insulate me from ripping off an extremely good main tank are absurd, especially when compared to the relative ease that our Brigs, Swashbuckler, Necros and Cojurors have managing theirs.    I usually raid in a group with a Troubadour de-aggro, a Paladin amending me, and a cross raid de-aggro from a Coercer, and in Labs, I will still get killed if I try to stretch my dps out.   It's dumb.    And if I didnt have a year + of learning how to raid a Warlock, and trying to squeeze the most out of the class under my belt, they would probably not waste the effort trying to make it work.  </P> <P>We see the posts from new warlocks and warlocks that have just begun to raid almost daily, and I feel badly for anyone trying to learn how to play one on raids from scratch.   Especially when some of these other classes can produce a quarter or a third more DPS on raids, while accruing a fraction of the hate, while not nearly as "protected" in the raid as I am.   Null Caress and Vulian Nullification do not work nearly well enough and are arguably a joke.   While I have saved myself a time or two by using these spells as ditches, it was probably as much luck as anything.     </P> <P>I see posts from some of the top warlocks in the game here on a regular basis.  People that have been playing Warlocks for a very long time, and have a ton of experience in raid situations.   These players play the class as well, or better than anyone, and yet their experiences are the same.    For Warlocks with less experience, it must seem really difficult, and this needs to be addressed.</P>

[Victicu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lurch72 wrote:<div></div><p>The Pillaging line is a good idea that has been poorly implemented.   You must have a Master quality version of it for it to be worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and even though I do, I always find myself wondering if I am not wasting the 2.6 seconds it takes to cast it.   If you are going to insist on us having this spell, make it at least as good as an Adept 3 Ruinous Heart from a necro... (Pillaging feeds you 27 power a tick at M1 versus 63 per tick for a heart at Adept 3)</p><hr></blockquote>Master 1 pillaging gives 27 power every 3 seconds.  If my memory is correct a tick is 6 secs.  That means you are accually getting 54 power a tick, which isnt all that bad.  If warlocks could keep pillaging on all the time we could function as a power battery... as sad as that sounds.</div>

[Victicu]

Honestly I would just like an answer from a dev about the future of the warlock class.  Similar to the one rangers got not too long ago.  Either 1) Yes we see a few problems with the warlock class and have plans for them in the future, or 2) We see no problems with the warlock class and believe they are functioning as intended.If the answer is #2... I may have to start collecting wizard masters.<div></div>

[Xede]

i sent a pm to lockeye earlier today directing him towards this thread and giving him the link....cant really do much now but hope

[Dajuuk]

<DIV>I am one of those relatively newbie Warlocks to the raiding environment.  I have got to say that agro management is tough, and I like that aspect of the class.   I also really enjoy the work that goes into getting your procs going, and DI and mixing everythign in to maximize damage as much as you can.   Lately I have been on the recieving end of quite a bit of deagro, including a troub, a coerc, and amends and still even with all that I can pull agro and die, or end up causing the Pally to pull agro and die.   I like that finding a balance is a challenge.   Fortunately I am in a guild thats willing to work with me on everything.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing is it seems to me for all that supreme effort put into allowing me to go as all out as possible, I really ought to be putting up better parses.  I would think that the #'s I am putting up now should be the result of holding back some due to not having the deagro assistance, and that with all this help and going all or near all out I should be able to better it by 30 or 40%.  I would think that sorcs should be in the situation where they could be hands down the top DPS class in the game with the theoretical chance of beating even assassins by 15% or so, but can't because of the hate they would generate and the need to hold back for agro purposes.  I feel that our agro issues are about right, its just that we aren't doing enough damage to justify the issues.  A possible solution would be to add a passive deagro to our distortion line that subtracts hate equal to the amount of power being returned.   Also add a power return/hate reduction to our absolution line.    Bumping the damage per tic of our dots and increasing the duration of them.   And finally channeling the hate generated by the damage caused by our netherlord and blobs of death to the void.   These changes combined would allow us to do slightly more damage in a raid environment for overall the same amount of hate.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been attempting to use Pillaging more frequently in raids especially in those fights that I anticipate taking a few minutes, under the assumption that while the spell isn't doing me any good (I only have at adept III) it is benefiting my group members and that it will make a differance for them.   Even if I keep the spell up all of the time, and even if the fight is long enough that my group mates are having difficulty with power as well, I have got to wonder if the benefit they are recieving is really worth the casting time.  The only times I have seen any real benefit has been in Lyceum with a Pally tanking and Amending me for Agro lock.  The hate generated by Pillaging and the extra power to the MT and support seemed to be helpful.   Otherwise I am coming to the conclusion that Pillaging has extremly limited usefulness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div>I feel sorry most for those new warlocks starting out in raiding that don't have a troubador in the guild or something. Not every guild can acquire an active one. So you are relying solely on a paladin as your pet 'amender' for example and if that paladin does not come on for a raid or misses a few days or even worse, is not active at all, you can really feel the pain as a warlock during that time. Even worse than that is if you kill the paladin a few times and cause him to die.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

[Mgunner]

<DIV>Currently, I'm only a level 35 Warlock. And after reading through this thread, I think I'm going to switch over to a Wizard. My main raiding toon is a level 70 pally. If the answer is having a paladin in your group, then no thanks. That's not an answer to the agro problem. I guarantee that if I took my paladin with most of you raiding warlocks, both the paladin and warlock will die. My paladin can bust out higher DPS then any noob warlock doing 1200+ DPS on multi-mob encounters.  Besides, I'll never be able to raid my warlock, because if my warlock is raiding, my pally will not be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a pocket pally is only a band-aid to hide the overall wounds that SOE put upon warlocks.</DIV>

[insano19t]

<DIV>Actually if they get rid of the nil crystals why not make the curse of isolation debuff actually do what it is supposed to do and also make that a deaggro as well.  I mean what other purpose will it do then?  I suggest making the deaggros that we have either on a shorter timer or actually making them more in reducing hate.  Vulian Nullification should have more deaggro at m1 come only 750 .. at m1 they couldve atleast raised it to 1,000 points of hate reduce.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just want maybe 1 mroe deaggro spell.  the recasts are rediculous.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly give us a better dark infestation pet and netherlord pet.  </DIV>

[hoosierdaddy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> insano19t wrote:<BR> <DIV>Actually if they get rid of the nil crystals why not make the curse of isolation debuff actually do what it is supposed to do and also make that a deaggro as well.  I mean what other purpose will it do then?  I suggest making the deaggros that we have either on a shorter timer or actually making them more in reducing hate.  Vulian Nullification should have more deaggro at m1 come only 750 .. at m1 they couldve atleast raised it to 1,000 points of hate reduce.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just want maybe 1 mroe deaggro spell.  the recasts are rediculous.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly give us a better dark infestation pet and netherlord pet.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How about pets that actually improve graphically as you upgrade spell quality? Or Netherlord being a slightly larger/glowing/whatever version of Netheros. After seeing Netheros, I was really looking forward to seeing what Netherlord looked like, only to find they shared graphics. I know it's only cosmetic, but they seem the type of trivial fixes that are added in every LU.</P> <P>And, while you're at it, how about a unique profession hat that differentiates us from wizards and conjurors? Or adding any sorceror only gear for that matter, which to this day I've never seen.</P> <P>-kai</P>

[martian07]

<DIV align=left>Thanks Xede for starting this thread.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>I am not in a top raiding guild like many that have posed but I do have a few thoughts on what is wrong with our class.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Curse of Isolation-I have this spell at Apprentice IV right now, I saw a master on the broker for a plat and decided it wasn't even worth it.   This spell would be good if it gave the warlock a portion of the health and power that you just reduced from the mob.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>I do not want another deaggro spell.   We have 3 already, vulian interference, null caress and concusive.   For us to reduce our hate I would rather see a hate transfer buff similar to what some of the scout classes have, and it would be nice if it could be used raid wide.   Maybe give us this spell in place of the useless Seal line.   </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Our dps needs some help.   There have been several good ideas about how to do this.   Increase the damage on our dots,  reduce recast timers, reduce casting timers, etc.   </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>As for our place in the game,  I am not sure where that is.   If warlocks were taken out of the game would the game change?   I do not think it would.   Everything warlocks can do can be done better and more consistently by other classes that have more utility(not that I want utility).</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>A frustrated Warlock</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Mazeekeo </DIV> <DIV align=left>Osmosis</DIV> <DIV align=left>Nektulos</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV>

[Wirdru]

<DIV>SmEaGoLLuM86 u are such a loser . Also u were saying u based ur info on t7 raid mobs yea no kidening ive killed every Kos mob except MO. And ur worst parse isnt possibly better than my best which is like 1800 so calm down and get a life stop making these posts like u know it all. yea i know i talk like im 17 cause i am</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wirdrune on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[Victicu]

<blockquote><hr>Wirdrune wrote:<div></div> <div>SmEaGoLLuM86 u are such a loser . Also u were saying u based ur info on t7 raid mobs yea no kidening ive killed every Kos mob except MO. And ur worst parse isnt possibly better than my best which is like 1800 so calm down and get a life stop making these posts like u know it all. yea i know i talk like im 17 cause i am</div><p>Message Edited by Wirdrune on <span class="date_text">08-11-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:16 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>im sorry your not getting 1800 on any single target encounter with at least a minute in duration,  wanna prove me wrong? post the log with timestamps so i can parse it.now if your talking your best ever parse on a raid including the rare mass AE encounters... then yes 1800 is very weak.<div></div>

[Wirdru]

<DIV>First I never said on a named. And ive been playing a warlock hmm since febuary . May not parse as good you but still improving etc.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 1800 was like some trash in lyceum if thats weak then w/e ur better than me but that was top parse with what we had. </DIV> <DIV>i rarely parse above 1k on names gonna be honest</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Then your conjurors and necros suck, because they should be doing 2-3k on the trash, and 1.6k is nowhere near enough to beat them. "</DIV> <P></P> <DIV> <DIV>Calaglin, Illusionist of <A href="http://dissolution.guildportal.com/" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Dissolution</FONT></A> on Nektulos</DIV></DIV> <P> </P> <P>Im on nagafen pvp server so no the conjurors and necors are not doing that much dps  2k at the max cause server has only been out a few months.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Nagafen&message.id=29864" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Nagafen&message.id=29864</A> about pvp vs pve</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Wirdrune on <SPAN class=date_text>08-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:18 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Wirdrune on <SPAN class=date_text>08-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:20 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Wirdrune on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:31 PM</span>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><div></div>Hahahaha stop further wrecking yourself with that last post, ok so all this time you are just hanging onto this one encounter in the game saying you can do 1800 and basing whatever the f- you are saying on it. And yes my lowest parse IS higher than your highest parse as I average 2.3k dps in Lyceum, and you are bragging out loud about your 1.8k dps as your highest in that zone haha. You quoting the other guy is just proving to yourself you are wrong and an idiot you know? Last I checked you have not killed Hurricanus or Chel'Drak either, why are you leaving stuff out just for your weak argument? I know exactly which encounter in Lyceum you are referring to and I can do just over 6k for that fight and as I said if the others weren't slacking it is not even the highest. Just stop basing a whole class on one encounter in the game. Just STOP. Look dude you said it yourself, you don't get past 1k dps on named, my assassin gets past 2k dps on most named, just further making yourself look like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and arguing your void point. So far you have added nothing of value to this thread, so in the future I would slap myself in the face a few times and stop posting cos no one is gonna read your posts in this thread anymore.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 PM</span>

[Wirdru]

<DIV>don't know what ur talking about or what encounter but right on ur so cool</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh yea cause i really care if people read what i post just bored as hell figure id look at the warlock forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you really need to calm down</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i forgot to say there is no reason to use curse words and name calling <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Wirdrune on <SPAN class=date_text>08-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:51 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Wirdrune on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 PM</span>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><div></div>I am calm, just responding to your pointless attack and how totally wrong it is <span>:smileywink:</span> In the end though you proved yourself wrong so it's all good.Edit: This is exactly what I mean when people say warlocks are fine just cos they parse highest in their guild on their best encounters.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 PM</span>

[Banshye]

<P>I wish the Devs would at least acknowledge that they have read/listened to our concerns. I understand they have a whole game to program but this class has had problems for nearly a year now and they've never even responded (to my knowledge) to warlock-community concerns over aggro issues. And it's not just warlocks that recognize there is a problem... I've seen posts from just about every other class acknowledging that they too think warlocks are broken.</P> <P>I think we've been patient and I decided this week to pursue other opportunties. </P> <P>Meet Najena's newest 70th level wizard... this is partly due to the warlock deficiencies as I perceive them and partly because our guild has a surplus of warlocks and not enough wizards.</P>

[Solan Swiftfist]

What I hate is we have to have the Perfect raid setup for us to do the damage we should always be doing.  The planets have aligned twice since I got in the perfect position to do all the damage I am capable of.  Everyone says fix the DPS, well I say fix the aggro and let that raise our dps.

[Keitho]

All players DPS reflects upon other players DPS. I mob dies slowly someone that does lots of damage over time will win. While a 1 shot and im done player will have least dps. If your guild consist of sucky assassins or anything of course  youre guna do better dps. But when you get someone playing there class perfectly I thik a warlock ..will pretty much suck. :/ Just my thought. Cuase I see it happen with me. <div></div>

[Talonis]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Keithoth wrote:All players DPS reflects upon other players DPS. I mob dies slowly someone that does lots of damage over time will win. While a 1 shot and im done player will have least dps. If your guild consist of sucky assassins or anything of course  youre guna do better dps. But when you get someone playing there class perfectly I thik a warlock ..will pretty much suck. :/ Just my thought. Cuase I see it happen with me.<div></div><hr></blockquote>QFE.I think the point some folks here are missing is that you need to look beyond your own personal situation. Some of you are pleased as punch with your numbers and feel the rest should probably zip it or L2P, while others say we are not performing to the grand scheme SOE put forth for us. I will not deny that many may win parser battles over summoners, preds, or rouges, but the real point is that if these other classes are geared properly, CA/spells fully upgraded, and played to the full potential, a corresponding properly geared/upg spells/played to potential warlock does not win and/or live.Placing the warlock in a custom group makeup to compensate for the lack of adequate aggro control is nothing more than a patch job. Save the skewed LoA or PP:R parses. They are not indicative of the game on the large scale. Warlocks are not completely broken, but they need some changes. I imagine MG rues the day he posted the dps tiers. The devs have some clue as to what warlocks need, as evidenced by the 3 miniscule deaggros we have. But the potency and implementation of those spells is severely lacking, when compared to what other classes have.Interesting excerpt from MG's blog, <a href="http://www.nerfbat.com/?cat=2" target="_blank">Nerfbat</a>:Trickdown Theory<div><p>The “Trickledown Theory,” also called the “Contraposition to the Vocal Minority Theory… Theory,” is fairly simple: The mood and opinions of the vocal minority can have widespread impact on those of the voiceless majority.</p><p>The “Vocal Minority Theory,” as I understand it, goes something like this: The thoughts and opinions of a small but outspoken segment of a population are of little concern, as they are not accurately representative of the majority.</p><p>Oftentimes when I or someone else brings up the concerns of a group of community members (whether its in an official capacity or simply in casual conversation), the immediate rebuttal is that they are the “vocal minority.” There’s no cause for concern or necessarily validity to their arguments, because they are the few who feel the way they do.</p><p>I agree with this to a certain extent–when there are one or two people passionately in opposition (or concord) on a particular subject, there is no cause for concern. However, there are many times in which the vocal minority happens to be a few dozen or even a few hundred people. When compared to the population of a relatively successful online game, their opinions are no big deal, right? That’s where I disagree with most people.</p><p>It just so happens that many of the members of an online gaming community who fall into the vocal minority category also fall into another rather important one: influential community members. These players like to talk–they like to be heard, and they are sometimes armchair lawyers (they won’t give up hurling their opinions at you until you agree with them).</p><p>While those who make up the vocal minority aren’t always guild leaders or even officers, they sometimes have a wide social network both inside and outside the game. Eventually, the opinions of these few can become the accepted opinions of a larger portion of the community. That larger portion of the community spreads the opinion to other members of the community, and it ultimately can become part of the canon of a game.</p><p>I’ve observed whole classes in games be deemed “useless” by the majority of a community because of constant preaching by members of the vocal minority. Classes that were, surprisingly enough, not at all useless and potentially more powerful than many others. It’s the power of opinion and social programming.</p><p>Keeping the vocal minority happy should always be a concern if you want your game’s general populous to remain so. Should you bend to their will and implement exactly what they demand? Probably not, but you should take their opinions into consideration and act accordingly.</p><p>If you still don’t understand the Trickledown Theory, please feel free to comment and I can elaborate more on the subject. Coming up sometime soon: a related theory! I like to call it the Big Bang Theory of Nerfing, which discusses social dynamics and the grand scheme impact a minor change can have in a game.</p></div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Curse of Isolation is simply useless as mentioned. It needs to be totally redone to a different spell. I am a bit in a hurry at the moment so will think of an idea for this spell later but in its current state, no person with a right mind will use it other than to farm nil crystals. Scourge of Shadows is also mediocre spell for a lvl 59 spell. I will think of some ideas maybe later for these two spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think something along the lines of a % based AOE debuff (remove the power debuff and increase the health debuff)</P> <P>and scale it accordng to the encounter like: m1 version having.</P> <P>Epic targets will have 0.20% of max health reduced (which works out to 4K dmg on 2 mil hp mobs)</P> <P>heroic targets will have 5% max health reduced</P> <P>solo targets will have 15% max health reduced.</P> <P> </P> <P>and since it works as a debuff make sure its coded to increase hate as a debuff and not damage, since the debuff amount isn't a 1:1 ratio on hate to debuff.<BR></P>

[Solan Swiftfist]

When I first started my Warlock on day 1, a warlock was just a wizard that was poison based instead of ice.  I think the current taunt/ agro system was based on this.  When they swtiched us over to AOE based, it threw us into a game not designed for that hence the off mobs killing us every other battle. 

[rascheiw]

<div></div>LOL warlock master of the AE damage...... <span>:smileyindifferent: (</span>That's never what i had in mind when i started this class.<span>)</span>The facts:-Warlcoks are *NOT* master of AE damage, we are outdps by necro and conjuror (sometime by berserker and swash too or they are pretty close to our DPS, wizzards are also close to us in that departement).-There is *NO* need for an AE specialized class in this game (maybe aside for some trash clearing, gratz us........) and even if there was conjuror/necro will do it more efficiently than us (more DPS and far less aggro issue). So if we let the trash clearing aside whats left? Well we have either solo mob (we all know what our single target DPS is compared to other class) or 1 big mob with plenty of HPs linked with some adds (far less HPs), for example elemental warder, overlord or Venekor in HoS. So let say for example the fight itself lasts 3-4 mins after 30 or so seconds all the adds are dead and we are back into the solo mob situation (so in fact we have a 30 seconds AE fight followed by a 2min30 solo mob fight, this is in my opinion why there is *NO* need for an AE class).-So to summarize warlocks have been given a role that is *NOT* needed (or very little) and are *NOT* even the best in that given role........<span>:smileyindifferent:-Warlocks are *NOT* fun anymore to play. We die way more often than any other class and it's not whatsoever rewarding, i wouldnt mind dying more often that the others if i was toping parses (somehow a risk vs reward thing).-Quite frankly why bring a warlock to a raid when u can replace it with a wizzard, a summoner or an assassin or or or.......The solutions?:It has been said by some people that if the tanks were given more AE taunts it would help us. I dont think its the solution sure we will die less often, but quite frankly right now provided a zerker is tanking i can pretty much go all out on AE fights and still will always get outdps by summoners.I know what im going to ask is quite unrealistic but one can dream<span></span>. I would like a complete revamp of our class, the AE role you gave us is not needed (the purpose of the class has already been comlpetely changed once when DoF went live so there is no logical reason for not doing it again<span></span>). Peolple may reply "betray to wizzard then!!!!", well if a dev ever states that our class is fine and that nothing will get changed i sure will or swap my main to a conjuror but until then i find it very risky to betray my fully mastered warlock to a wizzard and realize that in a few months warlocks will get fixed.</span><div></div>

[MilkToa]

<blockquote><hr>rascheiw wrote:<div></div>LOL warlock master of the AE damage...... <span>:smileyindifferent: (</span>That's never what i had in mind when i started this class.<span>)</span>The facts:-Warlcoks are *NOT* master of AE damage, we are outdps by necro and conjuror (sometime by berserker and swash too or they are pretty close to our DPS, wizzards are also close to us in that departement).-There is *NO* need for an AE specialized class in this game (maybe aside for some trash clearing, gratz us........) and even if there was conjuror/necro will do it more efficiently than us (more DPS and far less aggro issue). So if we let the trash clearing aside whats left? Well we have either solo mob (we all know what our single target DPS is compared to other class) or 1 big mob with plenty of HPs linked with some adds (far less HPs), for example elemental warder, overlord or Venekor in HoS. So let say for example the fight itself lasts 3-4 mins after 30 or so seconds all the adds are dead and we are back into the solo mob situation (so in fact we have a 30 seconds AE fight followed by a 2min30 solo mob fight, this is in my opinion why there is *NO* need for an AE class).-So to summarize warlocks have been given a role that is *NOT* needed (or very little) and are *NOT* even the best in that given role........<span>:smileyindifferent:-Warlocks are *NOT* fun anymore to play. We die way more often than any other class and it's not whatsoever rewarding, i wouldnt mind dying more often that the others if i was toping parses (somehow a risk vs reward thing).-Quite frankly why bring a warlock to a raid when u can replace it with a wizzard, a summoner or an assassin or or or.......The solutions?:It has been said by some people that if the tanks were given more AE taunts it would help us. I dont think its the solution sure we will die less often, but quite frankly right now provided a zerker is tanking i can pretty much go all out on AE fights and still will always get outdps by summoners.I know what im going to ask is quite unrealistic but one can dream<span></span>. I would like a complete revamp of our class, the AE role you gave us is not needed (the purpose of the class has already been comlpetely changed once when DoF went live so there is no logical reason for not doing it again<span></span>). Peolple may reply "betray to wizzard then!!!!", well if a dev ever states that our class is fine and that nothing will get changed i sure will or swap my main to a conjuror but until then i find it very risky to betray my fully mastered warlock to a wizzard and realize that in a few months warlocks will get fixed.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree 100%, an AE specialist is not a viable class in this game. SOE created this mess with LU13, why can't they fix it?

[Keitho]

<div><blockquote><hr>rascheiw wrote:<div></div>LOL warlock master of the AE damage...... <span>:smileyindifferent: (</span>That's never what i had in mind when i started this class.<span>)</span>The facts:-Warlcoks are *NOT* master of AE damage, we are outdps by necro and conjuror (sometime by berserker and swash too or they are pretty close to our DPS, wizzards are also close to us in that departement).-There is *NO* need for an AE specialized class in this game (maybe aside for some trash clearing, gratz us........) and even if there was conjuror/necro will do it more efficiently than us (more DPS and far less aggro issue). So if we let the trash clearing aside whats left? Well we have either solo mob (we all know what our single target DPS is compared to other class) or 1 big mob with plenty of HPs linked with some adds (far less HPs), for example elemental warder, overlord or Venekor in HoS. So let say for example the fight itself lasts 3-4 mins after 30 or so seconds all the adds are dead and we are back into the solo mob situation (so in fact we have a 30 seconds AE fight followed by a 2min30 solo mob fight, this is in my opinion why there is *NO* need for an AE class).-So to summarize warlocks have been given a role that is *NOT* needed (or very little) and are *NOT* even the best in that given role........<span>:smileyindifferent:-Warlocks are *NOT* fun anymore to play. We die way more often than any other class and it's not whatsoever rewarding, i wouldnt mind dying more often that the others if i was toping parses (somehow a risk vs reward thing).-Quite frankly why bring a warlock to a raid when u can replace it with a wizzard, a summoner or an assassin or or or.......The solutions?:It has been said by some people that if the tanks were given more AE taunts it would help us. I dont think its the solution sure we will die less often, but quite frankly right now provided a zerker is tanking i can pretty much go all out on AE fights and still will always get outdps by summoners.I know what im going to ask is quite unrealistic but one can dream<span></span>. I would like a complete revamp of our class, the AE role you gave us is not needed (the purpose of the class has already been comlpetely changed once when DoF went live so there is no logical reason for not doing it again<span></span>). Peolple may reply "betray to wizzard then!!!!", well if a dev ever states that our class is fine and that nothing will get changed i sure will or swap my main to a conjuror but until then i find it very risky to betray my fully mastered warlock to a wizzard and realize that in a few months warlocks will get fixed.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Aoe fights do come handy for us. I dont like our dps. But we pretty close to being the best aoe burning class there is. Ever fought Chel'Drak. Aoe god <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Ever try Matron AOE Good. Mutagenic is becoming AOE good. I love your spells as they are I mean Apoc CRIT 4,000 on 5 mobs  x6 ticks.....oo baby (more with raid debufs) 120,000 in 6 seconds.  Yes agro is wacked, but its wacked for wizards as well. What i truhfully think needs helped is possibly taking a few seconds off all major spells. Void abs. Void Dist   etc etc   and no one say AA's   agi is kinda the suck.....    Str and Wis FTW <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Plus whenver Faydark  comes out...theres complete seperate AA lines for your class specific....ya never know  there could be the god mode for warlocks...  </div>

[Chips]

<DIV>a basic issue i see with the warlock class is power consumption, single spells consume way to much power, , a reduction in power costs, a signifigant reduction , would be a good idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>another problem i see is casting times....most are too long , an effective cast time cut of 50 percent would be a good idea.</DIV>

[Darkdaedulus]

I have been playing my warlock since 3/05 .. ahh the good ole days...I still have my "I survived LU13" shirt.I m still rebuilding after the update when they messed around with the stun effects... and now.. after reading this thread and on how long it has been that any dev has updated on this .. I know you are all busy with other issues i really understand .. So in the meanttime i have been tradeskilling and playing my now MANY alts.. Oh and for the record.. I agree with all the above suggestions with exception to the ones that suggest that warlocks are not needing some loving.. I dont like playing a class that is always chosen last in a raid .. I mean it brings up too many old feelings of gym class when no one would pick me in red rover..(really, the game would just end.. I'd be the last one on the other side..)/sniff

[iceriven2]

hello ijust wanted to say i agree with most of the poster here.  My main is a 70 wizzie but i do have a 53 warlock.  I do think nil crystals need to be taken out, agro control needs to be still looked at even after update 27.  Also your single target dps i think falls short.  It may be b/c i am used to ice comet but i think a minor boost your single target is needed. Curse line, yup useless...maybe make that into a new single target nuke??  hopeing the Devs do see this b/c whats the point of having something like ubah raid dps when u can never use it??  at the very last realize that yes warlock may have the spells to have great aoe damage but ummm there isn't and spell Ca or feature that will let them do that dps....    deaggro or better aoe tuants maybe?? warlock do need a looking at hope i helped.

[Splatterpunk28]

Problems:1)  Aggro.  We need something more or different than boon, concussive and vulian.  I would say tanks might need something better, but this is only a sorceror problem, especially warlocks.2)  Single Target DPS:   We need  Dark Infestation DoT effect to stay in place even after broodlings spawn, boost the pyre and shadow lines dps and make soul blister line more power efficient. 3)  Nil Crystal component requirements are simply not fair.  Either make the curse line useful enough to cast, have our maelstrom debuff drop them or scrap the whole idea.I left about a month after DoF -- 11months gone because of the nerfing of solo abilities, changing our entire class into something different -- AoE specialists and then not giving us the tools to survive because of these changes.  Fix it or change it back.  I'm only back to visit with friends online because I moved and I'm too lazy to switch to a different class -- I want my class fixed!  'Warlock' sounds better than 'wizard' to me, noxious is better than elemental and Necro or Conj's aren't optional to switch to -- and I don't want to have to depend on a pet just to have consistently good dps w/out dying on raids and solo well.  That all being said, if we are the AoE gods ... why don't we top out on AoE encounters?  For being 'T1 dps' we sure have serious issues keeping us from fulfilling that role.  I can understand this if we were in beta, but consistently ignoring and neglecting a class severely sucks for paying customers.  Seriously it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to fix and people are not asking for much.  <div></div>

[Xede]

updated the list from hate transfer to increasing the boon line to 5-7% instead of being 3%

[Ryoko Hakubi]

<DIV>^ That is good to hear.<BR><BR><BR>Am I alone in thinking that what would REALLY help Warlocks keep aggro down is if they changed the mechanics for AoE damage to represent less hate? As in maybe 1 point of AoE damage to represent 0.5 point of hate.<BR><BR>I have no problem staying alive if I use single-target spells. But that's not what Warlocks are for.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Amethystt of Befallen</DIV>

[Zyphon Darkli]

Not sure if this has been stated or not, there's soooooooo much text to read though, I kinda read through the first page, and glanced through the 2nd two.. It seems the general concensus is over dmg output and role.. Which I'm not knocking, but everyone's overlooking one MAJOR issue (or at least a -MAJOR- issue imho).. Take a look at our agi line in our talents... more importantly the 2nd one down.. It's focus is daggers.. I mean what the hell? Our prismatic is a staff yet they give us something for daggers? So I'm supposed to give up my prismatic all for the sake of not wasting 4 AAs? At first I thoguht our familiar spell was problemized the same way, but acctally I'd prefer the gargoyle guy for the hate reduction since raids is the end game focus... but that still leaves me my original thought on the talent.. Now I know there's gonna be some people who will construe up some kind of totally whacked out reasoning about how terrible the prismatic is and why they don't even wield it and I'm sure it'll cause some people to say "wow that's so uber" but seriously, alot of us -are- wielding our prismatic and a talent based on daggers that is forced on us (If were to get the resuse reduction and casting speed increase) is rediculous.-- Xyanthar61 WarlockPermafrostLast Bastion(Graphical sig coming soon)<div></div>

[Aerendor_Shadowbri]

Hello, since i was included in the beta of EoF, i thought it might be useful to send to the Devs our plead for some changes, here are the ideas i thought of sending, Please give me your input in order i can forward it to the Devs...(Let's hope they will listen to us better than in this forum):- Nil Crystals:Please remove them as components for our spells, they are useless and no other class need such things for their activity.If you wish to keep them as they are a roleplay component, you can transform them as a mana/life battery with a long reuse timer.- Damage:After a difficult birth (we were overweak before LU7) and an overpowered teenage (we got overtweaked up to LU13) we got transformed to AEnukers with DoF.Since this revamp our role has been redefined but we haven't recovered a part of our dps that would allow to match our wizard cousin, even on group mobs where Conjurors still get past us.At least a good increase of our nukes and a slight one of our AEs would be most welcomed.- Aggro:I dunno if 1 dmg = 1 hate point but some aggro rework would be most welcomed to get less aggro.If you have any idea, correction to make, please say so i will try to make our voice heard.

[Keitho]

Really think that DPS and Deagro need  bumped.   Since they cant give a tank more Agro Taunts..  They need to add a moe passive deagro to our aoes ...  our make our hate transfer more worthwhile... Take AA's to help hate is Bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]  No way should we be foreced to do that to stay alive...but ya ...Something needs to be done<div></div>

[Windowlicker]

<DIV>I figure I should probably throw my two bits in here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>DPS</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>While I enjoy the volume of DPS the warlock kicks out, I do think there should be a marginal increase on a few fronts.  Alone, I feel we do more than enough DPS.  However the problem would seem it's far too easy for a Conj or Necro to out parse us in an AE situation.  For me to come out top on the dps parse (Which does happen very frequently), I need to chain cast literally everything I have with 100% accuracy.  Currently I have at least 9 masters, and everything else at Adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suppose what's giving me this impression, would be the up-and-coming Conj and Necro's that do not have the calibre of gear my character is currently sporting.  I'm having problems keeping ahead of Summoners that not only have lower stats, but less upgraded spells.  Again it goes back to the problem that's been mentioned in this thread several times concerning the difficulty we have maintaining T1 damage against T2 classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Hate, So much Hate</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To maintain the DPS level I'm able to acheive currently, I need to have an absolutely perfect raid setup.  This is likely easier for me then most as I'm a guild leader.  It has become absolutely needed to have "Amends on Zahne", along with the Coercer and even Troub hate reduction stacked on me.  At this point it almost feels like Warlocks walking into a raid could be compared to challenged children jumping on a shortbus.  Everyone has to cater to us so we achieve the numbers they expect, and we end up becoming more of a hinderance then what you might call desireable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To illustrate a point, I will <STRONG>still pull hate</STRONG> while using:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Mastered Amends</DIV> <DIV>- Hate reduction robe</DIV> <DIV>- Hate reduction pet</DIV> <DIV>- Two hate reduction spells</DIV> <DIV>- Coercer hate reduction</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't even get to make USE of Boon's hate reduction, as it's become very apparent it cancels the effects of Amends.  I was pulling hate on the first or second cast each time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Without all of these nice hate reduction perks I receive from my position within my guild, I would be unable to place within the top 5 of most any raid I would attend.  This fact is reinforced each time I join raids with other guilds, where the raid leaders tend to be less experienced how to configure the raid around a Warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I'm not sure raid leaders *should* have to configure the raid around us.  We should be helpful to the general raid atmosphere, not create more work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Utility, Nil Crystals and the sort</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Call me crazy but I think each class should have some form of utility.  Historically in EQ, Wizard type casters have always had some form of teleportation spell.  Currently Wizards are able to Evac groups, however we are not.  I would be perfectly fine with this if you could guarentee we would bury them in DPS consistantly.  To have balance between the classes, we should at the very least be on par with the Wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nil Cyrstals are absolutely annoying, and serve no real purpose other than a timesink.  Moving our debuff to an AE format with the ability to farm several crystals at once was a step in the right direction.  Honestly though, they end up being an annoyance more than anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summoners have oodles of Utility, however are still somehow matching us in parses or in some cases beating us all together.  I have a feeling this is one of the main reasons you see quite a few angry Warlocks posting in the forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Summary</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I do think we're doing as much damage as we should be, there are a few classes that are doing a little more then you would expect them to.  I'm not a fan of having anyone nerfed, but the only alternative is to adjust us by giving the Warlock a little more juice in the damage department.  We are noticably weak, and could not be considered T1 dps on single targets .. however do very well on AE encounters.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the bottom line here is either a few people need to get nerfed, or we need to get boosted.  We will likely see no visible changes to our class until after the EoF expansion as there are a number of changes coming for everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>It's really useless to bicker over information provided by each player in this thread.  Each person has a completely different setup they're using, and it's impossible for us to really determine what problems this class has by looking at our own characters.  The information I've provided above details my experiences with my character as I have it setup.  AA, Gear being used, Order spells are casted, and general Quality level of spell will greatly effect the bottom line each character will experience.  </EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Hopefully this information will be of some use when looking at this class and making changes that will create a more enjoyable experience overall.</EM>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xede]

<DIV>Updated first post....edit is in yellow. Seems they did most of what was asked in this thread in one way or another. I am a very happy warlock right now.</DIV>

[Ruut Li]

<cite>StarfoxJD wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>Aggro Issues</b>.  The biggest problem, as mentioned ad nauseum, is the aggro issues that use of the Warlock's class specialized spells bring.   Without a pally in the group casting amends on the Warlock, we are forced to hold back our damage casting.   Even then, because only pally's have the amends line, the Warlock competes with other dps classes such as the Wizard and Ranger for that amends hate transfer.  Routinely, despite the Wizard out damaging the Warlock, once the tank goes down, the mob turns on the Warlock next.  This is just wrong.  If you're not going to give us the ability to compete with Wizards for the amount of damage, there is no reason we should be on the top of the hate list after the tank.  <b>Reduce the hate gain of Warlocks for AoE's or increase our AoE hate debuffs greatly.</b></p></blockquote>Im afraid our aggro issues are considered to have been fixed in the "balancing"-the- AA-lines - patch. It was a "choose INT line or be quiet"-patch really <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ThadeusOfShibboleth]

<p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=369270" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=369270</a></p><p>I didn't want to copy it so here's the link from a valid issue and well thought out post.</p>

[Burnout]

too low single dmgtoo few raidencounters with 4+ mobstoo much aggro on encounters 4+too less care about since lu#1too much wizzard sided gamedesigntoo much dmg on classes that should be below warlock dpstoo much to make just one post...

[Vinh]

Is this the place to request we get an evac?? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> From day one, I have yet to understand why wizards get 2 and we get none...

[MrWolfie]

The way forward for Warlocks is not to lower other classes' AOE abilities, but to strengthen the Warlock's and to add new innovative abilities for the Warlock.<ul><li>For starters, Warlocks should get an Evac.</li></ul><ul><li>Cast timers for the Warlock could stand being reduced across the board, with many spells being reduced to insta-casts (our debuffs and deaggroes, for example).</li></ul><ul><li>For new abilities, how about Warlocks being able to add mobs to a linked encounter? A warlock's strength lies in the amount of encounter-only AOEs they have (which will be strengthened further by reducing the ridiculous length of time it takes to cast them!) Warlocks should be able to select mobs and link them up to make bigger encounters (of solos, heroic or even epic mobs), to maximise the effects of their AOEs and also ensure that other people's encounter spells/CAs (like taunts) affect new mobs that would otherwise be outside the original encounter.</li></ul><ul><li>Also, the Warlock's encounter-wide AOEs should have the # of mobs affected increased and have the radius limitation removed completely.</li></ul><ul><li>Masters of the Void: Another special ability could be the ability to open up a portal into the void and have it swallow up one mob, thereby removing them (until they respawn, if a respawn is appropriate for the zone). No XP, AAXP or treasure/loot would be receivable; it just removes the mob. Good for crowd control in a pinch, good for travelling Warlocks who don't want a fight. Could be used in many situations, but always has the downside that it also removes that mob's rewards. Use carefully.</li></ul><ul><li>Since our root was nerfed way back, it could still stand being better than a Wizards, since they have way more single target DD firepower than we do, our root is likely to break more often than theirs, especially since we're going to fighting any given mob longer than a Wizard needs to. Unless, of course, the Warlock is made into a class that can take being wailed upon:</li></ul><ul><li>And given that many of our AOEs radiate out from the Warlock, it would seem that, by design, we should be in amongst the mobs. In which case we need skills to deflect blows away from our puny, cloth-covered selves. Another warp-type skill would be the ability to turn attacks, a magic version of riposte, if you will.</li></ul><ul><li>Nihilistics could use a threat proc in addition to the damage, like a monk's Dragon Stance. Or the Boon... line of spells need to have the hate transfer increased massively (personally, I'd say somewhere between 15 - 25% hate transfer).</li></ul><ul><li></li></ul>

[inshiningarmor]

Except for the decided lack of group encounters in RoK, I cannot think of a way to improve my Warlock.   It is my raid alt when I do not play my defiler and when I do get to use him( anything but Contested ) I am normally in the top 3 in the zonewide.   At least half of the fights I am number 1, half I am around number 4.   In all the only 2 that beat me are the main Warlock in better gear.. Necro.   The rest try, but that is about it.

[ThadeusOfShibboleth]

Dark Infestation used to scale as you leveled...now with the upgrade to Brood Infestation, they no longer scale.  This is a HUGE hit to our dps and I firmly believe we have just been smacked right in the face with the nerf bat.  Please fix this ASAP!  These broodlings are not going to do squat against an 80+EPIC!  I really thought the devs had nailed it this time around but it looks as if this may be an oversight.  If anyone can get this some attention, please do so!

[XeroXs84]

Couldnt agree more <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> please fix the broodlings

[MrWolfie]

Not entirely my idea, but it might be worth mulling over:<ul><li>Avoidance Sorceror.</li></ul>What if they were to completely redo the Warlock class, to make it as different as possible to the INT-based cloth-wearing standard of root n nuke casters? What changes would you make? [No Luddites need apply <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />]A few thoughts:Leather armour class. New armour for Warlocks, with INT and AGI as the main stats. Deflection and defense effects, proccing effects when being hit, minor-self heals too?True AOE specialist.More out of encounter spells, like Acid  Storm, but with the provision that the Warlock be  the centre of the storm and it radiate out from t hem! Magically assisted avoidance.Buffs for INT and AGI, defence, parry and deflect, disruption and focus. And a really, really nasty damage shield (self only).

[yopaljeff]

my broodlings from brood infestation are not scaleing to my level anymore. they are green instead of white, get resisted constantly and die very fast. i am in a hardcore raid guild who has already thrown out over 3 sorcerers for low dps. i do not need this type of stress. i'm already [Removed for Content] that the new wizard spell doesn't inturpt the flow of the wizy casting spells but totally screws me on potential aoes or spells that didn't finish casting(wasteing a good 3 seconds) and using up my temp buff timers. or maybe i didn't get my dots on in time before the wizard imposes his spell on me. and the fact that too much of the rok content is single target friendly. you have had more than enough time to fix this bug. so either fix it or i'm canciling my account. because if i am not competeing for high dps then i don't want to play.

[LionWilled]

<p>#1: Where are the linked mobs at in RoK? I know you guys want to make RoK a solo quest grindathon, and linked mobs aren't appreciated by most people...But, you know, Warlocks main feature is green nukes, remember? Add linked mobs or turn 1-2 of our green nukes into blue ones, this is ridiculous.</p><p>#2: Broodlings....fix them, not later, now. This isn't even something that needs to be argued for, it needs to be fixed.</p><p> #3: Netherbeast needs a buff. Seriously, hes 100% useless. Yet again the Wizard pet is STILL better and more dynamic, and yet we have to pay a nil crystal for Mr. Worthlessbeast. That's fair and logical.</p><p> All I can think of right now....</p>

[CelebornXI]

don't want an evac, don't need more ae damage, don't need more single target damage, could get gear more specialized for warlock needs but meh...only thing I want... is a fully geared tank who can duel wield in offensive stance to tank all of the raid mobs.. that is allthat or amends to be cross raid and allow for a one man 5th group so the pally can amends me ...PS: Hell no i don't want to be a leather wearing sissy either, and we have aa's for skills parry defense etc, take them if you want, me.. I'll stick with doing damage and lots of it

[Aerendor_Shadowbri]

<p>Let's talk about balance in iemization ...:</p><p><img src="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/images/items/2485.jpg" alt="" width="276" height="425" border="0" /></p><p>That robe speaks by itself ...</p>

[Oh]

<cite>Aerendor@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Let's talk about balance in iemization ...:</p><p><img src="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/images/items/2485.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="276" height="425" /></p><p>That robe speaks by itself ...</p></blockquote>This isn't even funny.

[Obviousman]

<cite>Aerendor@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Let's talk about balance in iemization ...:</p><p><img src="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/images/items/2485.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="276" height="425" /></p><p>That robe speaks by itself ...</p></blockquote><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: verdana,geneva;">Bolt of Ice has a 45 second recast. Distortion has a 12 second recast (It goes to 40 seconds and 9 seconds with AA points). So technically, the damage done by these enhancements is just about equal. If you're trying to speak about how much more single target damage wizzerds do than we do, then well, I think I may start to cry.</span>

[Syndic]

If someone is thinking of compiling a new list to Warlock concerns one thing I would like to bring up that is not directly related but to make Ray of Disintegration not interrupt something currently being cast.Sure Ray of Disintegration is a nice high damage spell but when you are 3 secs through casting a 4 sec spell only to have it restart in casting a 4 sec (or whatever) Ray then starts starts your 4 sec spell all over again just becomes annoying.  It could at least wait until I've finished whatever it is I'm doing before just taking control of my character for me.Ray sounds like a fun concept, but can be a right pita really.

[Xede]

updated the post and basically put my suggestion i saw fit.