Raid agro management help.

[Milthon]

<DIV> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>I would like to ask for your help.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I am having agro/dps issues while raiding.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If the MT group has a dirge and I have a Paladin/troub in my group I can get into the top5 dps (consistently behind the summoners,[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/brigand/ and somewhere among the wizards.)<SPAN>  </SPAN>My issue is this, if we don’t happen to have a dirge or if I don’t have a babysitter in my group I never last the fight.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The linked non primary targets peel off and kill me.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>So do you just not cast AoE spells in this case?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Is any other class this dependent on other classes to even make them feasible in a raid?<SPAN>  </SPAN>We have one and only one function, DPS and I cannot perform that function.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Why in gods name would any raid leader take a warlock over a wizard let alone a summoner or other T1 dps.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They don’t have this problem or at least not anywhere near this magnitude a warlock does.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>I have Master version of all 60+ dps spells except Nebula.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>I use our deaggro spells whenever they spawn.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>I am wearing the procing deagro robe and gloves.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>I do not lead with AoE spells but even waiting until the Main target is 50% a Crit apoc will kill me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>Any help/advice would be appreciated.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I am to the point of quitting or at least rerolling a scout dps class.</FONT></P></DIV>

[Victicu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Milthon wrote:<div><p><font color="#ffffff" face="Times New Roman" size="3">I do not lead with AoE spells but even waiting until the Main target is 50% a Crit apoc will kill me.</font></p> </div><hr></blockquote>You got to be kidding...Anyways, its ideal to be grouped with a troub for their deaggro.  If that is not possible, ask a coercer to put their deaggro on you.Your main tank should have a dirge/coercer.  If that combo isnt possible coercer/scout transfer or dirge/scout transfer will work too.If your raid doesnt have any of the above, dont even bring the warlock to the raid, start powerleveling a dirge or coercer =pI generally dont use our deaggro spells, they are pretty insignificant imo.  Relying on others buffs is about all we can do.</div><p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:52 PM</span>

[Xede]

basically vic summed it up.....dirge/coercer in the MT group to give max hate and then having a troub in your group for the deaggro along with asking the coercer for theirs and if you have an illusionist try to get their spell proc that has damage and deaggro on it.

[Korpo]

/agreeIf your raid doesn't have a proper setup, either your dps or your repair bill is going to suffer. Make sure the MT group has a dirge and coercer, or one of those and a swash or assn. If none of the above is true, then just be content with your single target spells, which can still get you a respectable 1k dps or more.Yes, other classes are dependent on others to make the useful. Predators and rogues can do a good job pulling agro off the tank if they're not careful and the tank doesn't have a ton of hate buffs on him, as can wizards, summoners, brawlers, and zerks. The "we're totally reliant on other classes" is tired and a stretch at best, except to the extent that <u>every</u> dps class in a raid is dependent on the tank having good agro tools.The "one and only function" argument is even more tired, and even more of a stretch. Warlocks have a good deal of (raid useful) utility if you look for it, especially when compared to predators.<div></div>

[Banshye]

<DIV>I've experienced similar problems as noted by the OP and warlocks cant AE without another class modifying their hate ranking. The possible exception to this is if the main tank is a berserker and in that case, he's doing as much AE damage as I am anyway and I'm usually able to go nuts.</DIV>

[Felshades]

this is true, we do have our uses, even if they seem small if we cannot dps.i spent a LOT of time in t5 as a replacement for a third healer in mt group on quite a few raids, mainly due to the fact we had no defiler to bring, and i had master of the noxious mititgation buff.  my job was sit there with mt targetted, power feed his butt and provide noxious mit.yeah it was boring but i had my uses.. woulda had a shot at the drops too but that tier hated casters when i went along so... ehh it happens.<div></div>

[MilkToa]

<blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:/agreeIf your raid doesn't have a proper setup, either your dps or your repair bill is going to suffer. Make sure the MT group has a dirge and coercer, or one of those and a swash or assn. If none of the above is true, then just be content with your single target spells, which can still get you a respectable 1k dps or more.Yes, other classes are dependent on others to make the useful. Predators and rogues can do a good job pulling agro off the tank if they're not careful and the tank doesn't have a ton of hate buffs on him, as can wizards, summoners, brawlers, and zerks. The "we're totally reliant on other classes" is tired and a stretch at best, except to the extent that <u>every</u> dps class in a raid is dependent on the tank having good agro tools.The "one and only function" argument is even more tired, and even more of a stretch. Warlocks have a good deal of (raid useful) utility if you look for it, especially when compared to predators.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You may be tired of the argument but it's true. I've abandoned my warlock (which has been my main since EQ2 was release) and leveled a brigand. He's been 70 for about a month and I've been raiding with him regularly. There's no comparison, his DPS (except AE) is better, his utility is better, his aggro management is better, his power management is better. There's a reason there are fewer and fewer warlocks in the game. Hell, even wizards are now a much better class than a warlock.

[Tanatus]

Drop dirge, get coercer ...

[Xede]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> Drop dirge, get coercer ...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>drop dirge get coercer? why not use both...be much better <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ivane0]

<P>/agree with xede</P> <P>but if i had to choose, id take the dirge, hands down</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>If you can <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> if you cannt try trade 1 dirge for 1 coercer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Coercer +49% hate to MT and -23% hate raid wide to any person up to ... as many free conc coercer have </P> <P>+97 power/tic (42+14+41)</P> <P>+14% to critical heals</P> <P>-1049 hate every 20s to any person within group (or pet) priceless on sanctuary pulls</P> <P>Mana flow - trade 10% coercers health for 10% coercers power pool to anyone within group every 30s (coercer power pool remain intact)</P> <P>Channel - split once every 15 min group power pool evenly</P> <P>Dirge hardly can come even close to that in MT group but of course combining power of coercer and dirge together is FTW</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Tanatus on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 PM</span>

[TheStateFish]

One suggestion i'd make is learn how your tank taunts. Without those classes that provide aggro management, you can probably get away with a single aoe per aoe taunt of the tank. Learn the recast of that taunt, let the tank set the mobs at the beginning of the fight to be assured he used it once already, then use single target spells aside from that one aoe per cycle. It's not a full burn, but it'll keep up your dps when aggro is an issue. Spam your deaggro spells as they come up also. And when people yell at you for being in aoe range of the mob.. just tell em you're deaggroing with null caress. It's a lose lose, die to aoe or die to aggro. (but with proper raid setup you shouldn't need it anyway) At least Vullian Nullification is a ranged cast. and you can cast concussive then VN for extra deaggro without dmg attached to it.

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div>See this is where you just have to rely on other classes as a warlock. How many other classes have to do that? Not many. In the end it is only special treatment from other classes so if you achieve a high score you might want to rethink how you did it in the first place. So the hate increasing stuff for the tank include the dirge and coercer's hate buffs. Non permant stuff include the ranger's and swashbuckler's hate combat arts where the next person hits gets extra hate etc. Hate decreasing stuff for you include the troubadours hate reduction group buff, the coercer's single target hate reduction which can be cast cross raid, amends and the guardian's moderate. Indirect stuff include the illusionists spell proc which can also be cast cross raid and whatever deaggro proccing gear you can get your hands on.Edit: Obviously having a tank who maximses his aggro abilities is also very important and is out of your control. So for those who raid with a mediocre tank, your life is gonna be very hard as a warlock.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[Grothargh]

best way to rid aggro, is to die <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />thats how i do it if i mess up aggro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Xede]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote:<BR> See this is where you just have to rely on other classes as a warlock. How many other classes have to do that? Not many. <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>actually assassins, brigands, rangers, zerkers, bruisers, wizards, warlocks, monks, and just about any DPS class depends on other classes to maximize their dps.

[Tanatus]

<P>Not really for swashes and assasin .... rangers are fine on thier own too</P> <P>So far most agro suffering classes are brigands and warlocks</P>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><div></div>I did not mention maximising dps, I said to simply do your job. Even though when you say that, it's funny cos it is also true. The scouts, other than rangers, can do nice dps even without the dps/haste/proc buffs/deaggro. Warlocks with no deaggro can't even use their class defining spell, apocalypse. Even when they do have deaggro and it crits you still have a high chance of getting aggro and if you are not number one the hate list you are defenitely number two. Now brigands also create a lot of hate from their debuffs and don't have a passive hate transfer/reduction like the assassin/swashy/ranger but at least they got a lie low type skill to which means instant deaggro. Dude why do you keep arguing that warlocks don't have problems, even when I was talking to you in game you would mention how mediocre they are. Do you have any contested/zone parses of where you are top 3 when everyone is trying other than Lyceum? Warlocks are more than entitled to being in the top 3 as they provide nothing else that's special at all. I raid full time with my assassin now and I know personally how second hand the warlock is (full masters and full raid leg/fabled on both), yet I still care about the class to still post and give feedback. Now imagine if scouts got proccing gear other than from weapons or that collection quest earring like mages do. That's right, my warlock has like 9 proccing gear on him while the assassin has less than half. My assassin would further wreck my warlock. I know you are high in pride with your warlock but you need to stop arguing for the sake of a rebuttle.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 AM</span>

[Xede]

<DIV>i've honestly in a group by myself before coercers had raid wide deaggro and we had an illusionist broke 1k dps numerous times on  encounters without pulling aggro at all. so it is possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: i have said on the forums we need help as well. We aren't as broke as people make us out to be. Do we need lovin? yes we do. but not as much as most of you guys are begging for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>most of you want us back to where we were in T5 which was way overpowered.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Patrix513 on <span class=date_text>08-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 PM</span>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>When did I ever say we need to be back to where we were in t5? In fact I was one of the few warlocks saying we were on the overpowered side even back then. So don't say 'you' making it sound like it's just you and everyone else. 1k is not high, any able tank can hold 1k dps, heck some of them can do it even without hate buffs. But at least you admitted pubicly to what we were chatting about in tells. Fact is warlocks don't match up to the other dps classes, and because there are so many dps classes, why would you ever select one. I said some of the useless spells need to made useful and single target dps needs to be improved in relation to dark infestation where the dot still needs to tick after the broodlings have spawned and void distortion being a 9s recast. Hell I'd gladly rid of Nebula just for those two changes. Warlocks are too situational right now and along with the aggro which is another issue it is compounding to a worse degree. Regarding aggro I have had many ideas from people but my idea is simply to have vulian reduce more hate with everything else in the encounter compared to the targetted mob, so that on a single target you are not reducing as much hate as the wizard's cease. I don't see how anyone can see that as unfair and overpowering.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[Xede]

<P>I'm not say you in particular, i'm saying you as in a general sense.</P> <P>our deaggro spells are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing worthless and barely even worth casting as they reduce aggro to a very minumum and still dont help when needed.</P> <P>Another thing is we are NOT a single target class so our single target DPS should not be extremely close to other classes that specialize in single target DPS. Me personally i am happy with our single target DPS.....what i would like to see is maybe about a 50 damage increase per tick on our dot's as i can see even that little bit a tick to improve our dps significantly that we are up there with the other classes.</P> <P> </P> <P>atm i am too drunk to even worry bout the rest of the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that you have said...i will edit this message in the morning in replying to the rest of what you ahve said.</P>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Which dev ever said warlocks are not a single target dps class? Are they supposed to sit out when there's a single/two target mob which is what most of this game is? LoL. Warlocks are not meant to be the best single target dps, <i>that is for sure</i>, but a dev DID say that warlocks were meant to be part of the t1 dps classes. Hence even on single targets warlocks should outdamage conjurors, necros, swashies, brigands but they would come relatively close yes? That is not the case atm, warlocks fall behind all of the t1 or t2 dps classes on single target dps (except ranger), especially when there is mezzing which is another reason why warlocks are said to be so situational. If warlocks did the least on single target dps compared to wizards, assassins and rangers, <i>that is perfectly fine</i>, but it is not the case as I said and is well known in top raid guilds such as ours. Here in SD we are not as dps emphasised as you guys but the ratios are the same. Again, when everyone is trying do warlocks make top 3 on zone/named parses? Now the other option would be to downgrade all those other t2 dps classes but would SOE even do that? Now I totally agree with you - there are no drastic changes needed, just some minor improvements in the single target dps department. And yes the deaggroes need improving, what I suggested would really help. So you say warlocks are not a single target dps class, so what are they? AE? But conjurors do more, AND do more on singles AND offer better and unique utility AND do it with much less aggro AND two conjurors over a conj and a warlock would mean shards are given out faster, the list goes on. Wizards, swashies, necros etc also come close - assassins are no pushover either on ae encounters with two very nice ae abilities. Rangers are also not as [Removed for Content] on AE encounters - did I just mention all the other dps classes? It is not like you are losing much anyway if you are down a few hundred dps on a 15 sec AE trash encounter. Why bring a warlock again? The only time when you don't feel as [Removed for Content] is either when your guildies are slacking or in Lyceum, those are the times when the warlock can at least feel a little better about themselves. See mr dev how one warlock problem compounds to another?Edit: Also you can tell I only reply to people who know the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and experience it daily which is why you don't see me arguing with people who aren't even lvl 70 or don't raid <span>:smileywink:</span> And the fact that I play my assassin now one would say why do I still care, it just means I am genuinely concerned for the well being of all the classes.<div></div><p>Anyways, I am outta here. I have mentioned enough warlock issues for one day, and probably to last a good few days.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>08-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 AM</span>

[Xede]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote:<BR> Which dev ever said warlocks are not a single target dps class? Are they supposed to sit out when there's a single/two target mob which is what most of this game is? LoL. Warlocks are not meant to be the best single target dps, <I>that is for sure</I>, but a dev DID say that warlocks were meant to be part of the t1 dps classes. Hence even on single targets warlocks should outdamage conjurors, necros, swashies, brigands but they would come relatively close yes? That is not the case atm, warlocks fall behind all of the t1 or t2 dps classes on single target dps (except ranger), especially when there is mezzing which is another reason why warlocks are said to be so situational. If warlocks did the least on single target dps compared to wizards, assassins and rangers, <I>that is perfectly fine</I>, but it is not the case as I said and is well known in top raid guilds such as ours. Here in SD we are not as dps emphasised as you guys but the ratios are the same. Again, when everyone is trying do warlocks make top 3 on zone/named parses? Now the other option would be to downgrade all those other t2 dps classes but would SOE even do that? Now I totally agree with you - there are no drastic changes needed, just some minor improvements in the single target dps department. And yes the deaggroes need improving, what I suggested would really help. <BR><BR>So you say warlocks are not a single target dps class, so what are they? AE? But conjurors do more, AND do more on singles AND offer better and unique utility AND do it with much less aggro AND two conjurors over a conj and a warlock would mean shards are given out faster, the list goes on. Wizards, swashies, necros etc also come close - assassins are no pushover either on ae encounters with two very nice ae abilities. Rangers are also not as [Removed for Content] on AE encounters - did I just mention all the other dps classes? It is not like you are losing much anyway if you are down a few hundred dps on a 15 sec AE trash encounter. Why bring a warlock again? The only time when you don't feel as [Removed for Content] is either when your guildies are slacking or in Lyceum, those are the times when the warlock can at least feel a little better about themselves. See mr dev how one warlock problem compounds to another?<BR><BR>Edit: Also you can tell I only reply to people who know the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and experience it daily which is why you don't see me arguing with people who aren't even lvl 70 or don't raid <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN> And the fact that I play my assassin now one would say why do I still care, it just means I am genuinely concerned for the well being of all the classes.<BR> <P>Anyways, I am outta here. I have mentioned enough warlock issues for one day, and probably to last a good few days.<BR><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you remember correctly a couple months later MG stated he regrets even making that post and that everything is still situational. But i do agree with what you have stated in your post here.</P> <P> </P> <P>Are we suppose to be T1 DPS? yes we are because we are sorcerors and well sorcerors just nuke the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out of things. I have thought about it numerous times making a post about warlocks concerns and issues with this game but have never gotten around to it. I love the class and want the best for it but you and I both know that even we may not be the ideal class to choose we can still put up the numbers needed if the situation arises. We are far from being broke but we still need our lovin too just like our predator counterpart the ranger.</P>