Raiding Warlock AA Setup

[-Karofin-]

<DIV>I am looking for advice on what AA lines to use to benefit <STRONG><U>raiding</U></STRONG> on my Warlock please.  I have 10 points ready to spend and expect to be getting the other 40 very soon indeed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   The secondary use of the Warlock will be grouping so I really dont have to worry about any benefits from AAs for soloing.</DIV>

[hoosierdaddy]

<DIV>After respeccing at least half a dozen times, this is the combination I find works best for me (who only raids and rarely, if ever, groups):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR 4-4-4-8</DIV> <DIV>WIS 4-5-4-8-8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wisdom not only makes you a more efficient spellcaster, which is neccesary on longer raid encounters, but increases the base damage of all spells by 10% as well, effectively making all Master 1 spells into Master 3's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tried out the AGI line and, even after the changes, its benefits did not seem to outweigh those of the WIS line. Casting times being reduced by .3 and .4 seconds is negligible and probably in need of even further revisions. Recast timers arent of much importance and Sagacity--the final WIS AA--is immeasurably more valuable <U>to a full-time raider</U> than the final AGI AA imho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Increased crit percentage seems a no-brainer to me, but some argue that it alone does not justify the other points spent in the STR line to get to Spell Expertise. I tried catalyst and found I could often exceed the damage of my crits with freehand sorcery from the Wis line anyway, and that trading a bub of life on raids was not worth a guaranteed crit. Not to mention that Spell Expertise + Don't Kill the Messsenger (Troubador crit song)+MoA=high crit percentage anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless significant changes are made to the existing sorceror AA's, I don't plan on changing from my current setup any time in the near future. I do really well on parses and I'm in a pretty good guild. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You do basically have a few freebie respecs, so try a couple different combinations and see which works best for you. I'm sure others will offer their insights and their combinations might be as effective for them and you as mine are for me; different strokes for different folks. But you did ask for opinions and these are mine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Kai</DIV><p>Message Edited by hoosierdaddy on <span class=date_text>07-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 AM</span>

[Xede]

<P>i think kairos put it exactly what i would say. His setup is exactly what I went with after trying the int deaggro line.</P> <P>The deaggro is nice at the beginning when people are learning the encounters and what not but with the right MT setup you should not get aggro very often unless the tank doesnt taunt or apocalypse crits for 2.5-3k a tick.</P>

[-Karofin-]

Many Thanks for the comments so far.  This is a huge help.

[Talonis]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Patrix513 wrote:<div></div><p>i think kairos put it exactly what i would say. His setup is exactly what I went with after trying the int deaggro line.</p><p>The deaggro is nice at the beginning when people are learning the encounters and what not but with the right MT setup you should not get aggro very often unless the tank doesnt taunt <font size="5"><b>or apocalypse crits for 2.5-3k a tick.</b></font></p><hr></blockquote>Thank you, Xede. I got most of the pepsi off the keyboard. Good to know I'm not the only one that experiences the simultaneous "Whoa" and "DOH" of watching Apoc crit sometimes.I totally concur, the STR and WIS lines are a raiding Warlock's friend (and enemy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). Throw in a Troub with some<i> Don't Kill the Messenger</i> and some Illusionist <i>Synergism</i> lovin' and you can laugh your summoner friends right out of the parse channel. Base damage increases and crits for the win.<div></div>

[Xede]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GLScooby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Patrix513 wrote:<BR> <P>i think kairos put it exactly what i would say. His setup is exactly what I went with after trying the int deaggro line.</P> <P>The deaggro is nice at the beginning when people are learning the encounters and what not but with the right MT setup you should not get aggro very often unless the tank doesnt taunt <FONT size=5><B>or apocalypse crits for 2.5-3k a tick.</B></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you, Xede. I got most of the pepsi off the keyboard. Good to know I'm not the only one that experiences the simultaneous "Whoa" and "DOH" of watching Apoc crit sometimes.<BR><BR>I totally concur, the STR and WIS lines are a raiding Warlock's friend (and enemy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). Throw in a Troub with some<I> Don't Kill the Messenger</I> and some Illusionist <I>Synergism</I> lovin' and you can laugh your summoner friends right out of the parse channel. Base damage increases and crits for the win.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>if its a good summoner they will out dps you in a hearbeat. =]<BR>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

Warlocks should be getting the last two in the int line as part of the class. Seriously, SOE seems to be up there laughing every time a warlock or wizard dies from aggro. Not everyone is fortunate enough - even though I do - to have the right deaggro classes in raids at all times and those who die from heroic mob aggro are even less fortunate. 400 deaggro does not cut it whether on paper or in game. Every high end warlock and wizard I have talked to has tried the int line and has said their dps is down a few hundred from leaving either the str or wis line, so to compromise for the dps you have settle for inevitable aggro.<div></div>

[Xede]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote:<BR>Warlocks should be getting the last two in the int line as part of the class. Seriously, SOE seems to be up there laughing every time a warlock or wizard dies from aggro. Not everyone is fortunate enough - even though I do - to have the right deaggro classes in raids at all times and those who die from heroic mob aggro are even less fortunate. 400 deaggro does not cut it whether on paper or in game. Every high end warlock and wizard I have talked to has tried the int line and has said their dps is down a few hundred from leaving either the str or wis line, so to compromise for the dps you have settle for inevitable aggro.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you are out of your mind....in a good raid setup you should rarely if ever take aggro. i had the same thinking as you, until i went with the str/wis setup. I have gained about 200-300 more DPS and take little aggro. AE encounters yes i will if Apoc crits or i start nuking instantly before the tank establishes aggro.

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div>You didn't read what I wrote properly man, you said pretty much what I said and backed it up with real situations. It still remains true that warlocks take aggro the most in groups and in raids with wizards not far behind and those two do it more than any other class in the game. So SOE should state clearly in its class guides that warlocks are also a good choice if you like to steal aggro from your tank while grouping or raiding, and like to die right?<div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>07-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:52 AM</span>

[emagine]

Well its not as bad when you have a pally as an off tank for them group mobs... amends can be the best thing for that... now upping your dps even more, giving the pally agro as an off tank... and with the ammount of agro the warlock generates, watch your raid pick up the dps because they cant pull it off.  You just have to know what works best for you.<div></div>

[Talonis]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>emagine wrote:Well its not as bad when you have a pally as an off tank for them group mobs... amends can be the best thing for that... now upping your dps even more, giving the pally agro as an off tank... and with the ammount of agro the warlock generates, watch your raid pick up the dps because they cant pull it off.  You just have to know what works best for you.<div></div><hr></blockquote>The Pally is better utilized in a different group, rather than amends for one player. There is a better suited fighter class for the DPS group imo. Don't get me wrong, I steal the Pally for the occasional PP:R runs for kicks, but for everyday raiding, the Troub is just fine coupled with the skills we currently have. A Warlock can survive just fine without any points in the INT line or a Pally.<div></div>

[Crono1321]

<DIV>If you want to live on raids you'd best go with the int line...unless you like zerkers and rogues doing more dps than you from holding back so much.  A troubador isn't going to be on every raid *typically*, and on those nights you will die a TON.  With sorcerors, predators, and summoners doing around 1000-1500dps per raid fight, we are the only class out of those 3 that does not have an innate aggro reducer (summoners split aggro with their pet, predators have passive aggro redux), and that means we get screwed over in aggro, and thus dps.  Sacrifice 100-200dps in a "perfect" situation for the reliable aggro reducer at the end of the int line.</DIV>

[Talonis]

<blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:<div>If you want to live on raids you'd best go with the int line...unless you like zerkers and rogues doing more dps than you from holding back so much.  A troubador isn't going to be on every raid *typically*, and on those nights you will die a TON.  With sorcerors, predators, and summoners doing around 1000-1500dps per raid fight, we are the only class out of those 3 that does not have an innate aggro reducer (summoners split aggro with their pet, predators have passive aggro redux), and that means we get screwed over in aggro, and thus dps.  Sacrifice 100-200dps in a "perfect" situation for the reliable aggro reducer at the end of the int line.</div><hr></blockquote>This is rubbish. I have zero points in INT and certainly do not die a 'TON' when the Troub is not raiding. Learn to use the skills and easily-obtainable gear at your disposal, and you can go STR/WIS with no regrets. INT line is great for learning your toon and your boundaries. It is certainly not required raiding material though.<div></div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>As everyone said I just repeat go with </DIV> <DIV>STR 4/4/4/8 and WIS 4/5/4/8/1 (last one cost you 8AA)</DIV> <DIV>As Xede said unless you like during raid pull mobs with Apocal and for some lucky reason scored with FHS 2.5k+ tic there is no way in hell you can pull agro from tank assuming you have right group set up for MT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note: you dont need even trubadur or god forbid paly in your group for de-agro - just get ameds from Coercer (coercers amends raid-wide) and you good to go</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tanatus on <span class=date_text>07-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:33 PM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV>As for the pally having better use...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have the pallies in our raids amends our sorcerers. Usually my (coercer) Harmonious Link is enough for everyone else, but the more a sorcerer has hate deaggro, the more his damage goes up. They are the only class that has such an upper limit in damage, that the only thing holding them back is aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally Amends (~40%) + Troub's group spell (~40%) + Coercer's Link (~20%) = over 100% deaggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know if there's a cap in hate deaggro (it seems like there isn't) but the wizard and warlock on our raids were able to toss out rift and fusion on the pull, and not get aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clocked in over 2.5k DPS on pretty much every fight, and things were dropping fast. The MT was pulling in about 600 DPS (had dirge and coercer hate buffs on). Without the pally, they'd get just over 1.2k and grab aggro. I'd like to see a pally bring 1.3 DPS to a melee group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's hilarious is that if the MT went down, we would know exactly who it went after next! MT dies, goes to the Pally amending the sorcerers... then it goes after the next highest DPS that didn't have amends. The sorcerers usually didn't get aggro until far down the wipe, unless they did big damage after their Pally died.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously... in raids, if they know what they are doing, aggro should be the least of your worries, and you should be able to push the envelope in damage.</DIV>

[Daelomd]

A few things:Paladins:Learn the other classes you raid with, in a caster group a Pally can output insane amounts of damage.  Why?  Well there are a number of reasons, the first being that Crusaders are INT casters, meaning the dmg of most of their abilities increases as their INT goes up.... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard for Paly to cap INT in a "melee" group.  What more, they also get the benefit of all of the caster group-only melee proc on dmg buffs.  Unless a/the Paly is being used in the MT group for extra heals and their mit-buff it is simply silly to put them with the scouts (in fact its much better to but the summoner with the "melee" group as their pet beneits from group melee buffs.)AAs:Something no one here has touched on is the extreme sacrafice in taking the Wisdom line.... that is losing a piece of gear.  Of the 4 "abilities" in the WIS line, 3 of them require your secondary hand to be empty.  Take the two very nice easiest to get secondary/ranged items:The Arm of Mithaniel (+30 STA +30 INT +130 PWR +130 HLTH +5 SUB)%5 - Decrease Threat Priority by 1%10 - Incease Casting Skills by 69Fitzpitzle's Misty Protector (+25 STA, +30 INT, +125 PWR, +80 HLTH)<div></div>%10 - Inflict 350-1051, and heal 234-701Those are just two examples, you also have things like "Guidance of the Ages" from Tarinax with sweet little deagro proc, or even the "Enspelled Vultak Eye" for a nice ward thats basically always on, or the "Blood of the Brood Mother" with a nasty little dmg proc, etc, etc, etc.  Giving up the ability to use 2 of these at once is HUGE both in losing stats and losing procs.  Personally I think the only given in the Sorcerer AA's is the STR line and I can't imagine anyone not taking Catalyst and pairing it with Apoc, the dps increase of ALWAYS criting APOC is huge.  As for the rest of the AA's they are garbage, the int line is basically worthless, the agi line is worthless, and it should be obvious but the STA line is pretty crap as well.  Now dumbing 8 points into Freehand Sorcery and just unequiping your Symbol before using it then reequiping isnt a bad idea, but the other AA's from that line that are passive and always require you to have that slot open .... well its just not worth it.  The additional base dmg doesnt make up for losing the proc on anyone of any number of awesome items. So my hope is that with the Expansion our class AA line will be something good and I can dump a ton of points into it.Troubadors:I <3 Troubies!  However in my experience the deagro they give is just enough to cover all of the extra dps they allow you to put out.  So in the end they are not a solution for agro, but more an added benefit of being able to do more dmg without working harder and not pulling agro from it.  I have no way to actually test this statistically and this is based purely on observation of my dps to pulling agro limits with and without them in the group.The current AA setup I am running now is:STR: 4/5/4/8/1INT: 4/4/4/8This provides me with another AE (420-700dmg )from the STR line, increased crit chance of 11.7%, 100% crit Apocolypse, another single target 30sec deagro (1,029), and 10% less hate overall..... oh and dont forget the 4% chance to parry all inc attacks and the increase defense of 17.1.Granted I have thought about dropping INT to 4/5 and taking WIS 4/8 then using the hotbar to swap my symbol on and off to use Freehand.Still all in all our AA's lines are like everything else we got hosed, nothing really unique or special and a bunch of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that makes no sense for your class (ie: parry, defense, mit, in-combat movement speed, +disruption and focus) would have been nice to have something like the Warriors buckler line or christ even the FD Swashys and Brigs get.... I would love FD, cause thats some flipping deagro.  Most other classes got AA's that compliment what their classes speciality is, like summoners and their pet stuff, tanks being able to tank better, etc... and we got hosed again.

[Raxe Sla]

<DIV>Wisdom line = 8% base damage increase across all spells.  I will take master 3 quality spells over having an offhand.</DIV>

[Xede]

Plarock hit it on the nose...M3 spells>extra stats...it doesnt matter if the item has a proc or not...you do more DPS with the str/wis line than the str/int line. I have gone down both roads and found that the str/wis setup is the best out there for any raiding warlock.

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>GLScooby wrote:<blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:<div>If you want to live on raids you'd best go with the int line...unless you like zerkers and rogues doing more dps than you from holding back so much.  A troubador isn't going to be on every raid *typically*, and on those nights you will die a TON.  With sorcerors, predators, and summoners doing around 1000-1500dps per raid fight, we are the only class out of those 3 that does not have an innate aggro reducer (summoners split aggro with their pet, predators have passive aggro redux), and that means we get screwed over in aggro, and thus dps.  Sacrifice 100-200dps in a "perfect" situation for the reliable aggro reducer at the end of the int line.</div><hr></blockquote>This is rubbish. I have zero points in INT and certainly do not die a 'TON' when the Troub is not raiding. Learn to use the skills and easily-obtainable gear at your disposal, and you can go STR/WIS with no regrets. INT line is great for learning your toon and your boundaries. It is certainly not required raiding material though.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Next time you raid, please show me your parses for battles you lived through before you call my theory rubbish.  <div></div>

[emagine]

<div></div>if your goin the str/wis line... like i have, and if your numbers in the parses are as high as mine are now, and with the 26% crit chance... you would notice, the troub deagro there is something wrong with it... the troubs deagro does not work against our crits... if our spells hit and dont crit the deagro is fine... but only the amends atm works for both, regular nukes and our crits.  The coercer's deagro also works ok, stacked up with the troubs, but still not as good as amends.... say what you want, but I have tested and tested and tested these situations out pleanty of times.... trust me, since you know this now... try it and youll find my conclusion is right on key.As far as going the Int line for the deagro, all i have to say is wrong choice, I bet you i would out dps you by about 300 dps for anyone that went the int line... Im sorry warlocks have no utility usefull in raids, the only utility that we have or should be considered utility is our dps, and if your not putting out the numbers you should be get the f- outta the raid. Most people would replace the worthless class and get a player that can play to there full potential...  You lose sooooo much dps goin the int line it isnt funny...  <div></div><p>Message Edited by emagine on <span class=date_text>07-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[Daelomd]

You lose a lot of DPS when your dead too...I think more then anything it comes down to your guilds raid setup, if they are giving you a pally or a guardian screw the int line get the extra dmg and going nutz!  If I can readily pull agro on ANY fight with more then 1 mob without the WIS line, please explain how going the int line is going to help me?  Give me 8% more dmg in the 30 seconds it takes before I am dead?  Seriously...<div></div>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:You lose a lot of DPS when your dead too...I think more then anything it comes down to your guilds raid setup, if they are giving you a pally or a guardian screw the int line get the extra dmg and going nutz!  If I can readily pull agro on ANY fight with more then 1 mob without the WIS line, please explain how going the int line is going to help me?  Give me 8% more dmg in the 30 seconds it takes before I am dead?  Seriously...<div></div><hr></blockquote>This post confuses me but....concussive blasts > u.<div></div>

[Raxe Sla]

<DIV>Sorry to say, but a good guilds MT group can hold aggro on a warlock who went down the STR and WIS line.  If your main tank cannot hold aggro... going INT is fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This has been discussed in the worldwide warlock and wizard channels on multiple occasions and almost all of the top guilds warlocks/wizards go str/wis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tanatus]

Basically if your MT cannt hold agro try recruit for your guild at least one coercer it will solve ALL problems

[Talonis]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:<blockquote><hr>GLScooby wrote:<blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:<div>If you want to live on raids you'd best go with the int line...unless you like zerkers and rogues doing more dps than you from holding back so much.  A troubador isn't going to be on every raid *typically*, and on those nights you will die a TON.  With sorcerors, predators, and summoners doing around 1000-1500dps per raid fight, we are the only class out of those 3 that does not have an innate aggro reducer (summoners split aggro with their pet, predators have passive aggro redux), and that means we get screwed over in aggro, and thus dps.  Sacrifice 100-200dps in a "perfect" situation for the reliable aggro reducer at the end of the int line.</div><hr></blockquote>This is rubbish. I have zero points in INT and certainly do not die a 'TON' when the Troub is not raiding. Learn to use the skills and easily-obtainable gear at your disposal, and you can go STR/WIS with no regrets. INT line is great for learning your toon and your boundaries. It is certainly not required raiding material though.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Next time you raid, please show me your parses for battles you lived through before you call my theory rubbish. <div></div><hr></blockquote>/shrug. I guess you don't get it then. Posting a parse number and giving you my word I didn't die proves very little. You're gonna just have to take it on faith that I have STR/WIS lines and don't die every other pull as you assume. If you are enjoying the game with your 8 points poured into Concussive Blasts, then cheers. I think plenty of respected Warlocks have stepped forward to concur for the OP that STR/WIS are the raiding Warlock's friend. If that isn't your cup of tea, so be it.Be safe and have fun.<div></div>

[Inebriation]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GLScooby wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:<blockquote><hr>GLScooby wrote:<blockquote><hr>Crono1321 wrote:<div>If you want to live on raids you'd best go with the int line...unless you like zerkers and rogues doing more dps than you from holding back so much.  A troubador isn't going to be on every raid *typically*, and on those nights you will die a TON.  With sorcerors, predators, and summoners doing around 1000-1500dps per raid fight, we are the only class out of those 3 that does not have an innate aggro reducer (summoners split aggro with their pet, predators have passive aggro redux), and that means we get screwed over in aggro, and thus dps.  Sacrifice 100-200dps in a "perfect" situation for the reliable aggro reducer at the end of the int line.</div><hr></blockquote>This is rubbish. I have zero points in INT and certainly do not die a 'TON' when the Troub is not raiding. Learn to use the skills and easily-obtainable gear at your disposal, and you can go STR/WIS with no regrets. INT line is great for learning your toon and your boundaries. It is certainly not required raiding material though.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Next time you raid, please show me your parses for battles you lived through before you call my theory rubbish. <div></div><hr></blockquote>/shrug. I guess you don't get it then. Posting a parse number and giving you my word I didn't die proves very little. You're gonna just have to take it on faith that I have STR/WIS lines and don't die every other pull as you assume. If you are enjoying the game with your 8 points poured into Concussive Blasts, then cheers. I think plenty of respected Warlocks have stepped forward to concur for the OP that STR/WIS are the raiding Warlock's friend. If that isn't your cup of tea, so be it.Be safe and have fun.<div></div><hr></blockquote> Like me! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I only love the risk and danger.. but if you know your class enough, you don't need to pick some silly deaggro line for AAs. They give you default hate tools with your warlock... knowing how to use them is half the technique. It requires you know when to cast them, and when not to. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Generally, I spread out my hate tools(Vulian Nullification and Null Caress). I don't pile them after I cast a big spell, especially if that big spell is going to be Apocalypse. Ok.. Apocalypse is DoT, not a DD nuke... using your hate tools before the DoT will not help enough, at least in my experience, nor will casting it after the DoT is done, because you'd either be dead, or you just pulled aggro and will probably die. So if you use your hate tools evenly through out the DoT, it will really help, and you will see improvement in control. You may lose a little dps, but then again, you can't do damage when you are dead. And if your tank seriously blows chunks and you are having an very hard time keeping mobs off you, then throw in your trustee Concussive before the DoT(which I hardly ever use anymore).<div></div><p>Message Edited by Inebriation on <span class=date_text>07-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 AM</span>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Null Caress if not linked to spell impact like Concursion thus it make sence hit it <EM>before or soon after</EM> you use FHSed Apocal. Apocal not generate agro immideatly but by the end of it specially if you scored crit and getting 2.5K+ per tic you will climb up on hate ladder very fast</DIV>