Suggestion for Rift Change

[Baielfire]

<DIV>Rift imo is a seriously [Removed for Content] spell. It looks flashy and it sure is great for mass murdering grey mobs, but its just not that useful. First I'll show some data to support why I think this spell should be changed. The numbers are based on average hits over a week of raiding in Deathtoll, Labs, Lycaeum, and Halls of Seeing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>11k Average Fusion hit from low end Wiz  = 33k on 3 mobs</DIV> <DIV>15k Average Fusion hit from high end Wiz = 45k on 3 mobs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4k Average Rift Slam hit from low end Lock  = 32k on 8 mobs</DIV> <DIV>5k Average Rift Slam hit from high end Lock = 45k on 9 mobs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand that AE is going to be a tad situational, but this is just ridiculous. 8-9 mobs together is so rare that its laughable and thats not even the number needed for us to surpass Wiz in AE dmg with this spell, just whats needed to bring us up to par.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest disparity however, comes from usefullness. Fusion is worth casting every time it refreshes. An 11k - 15k nuke against a single target is very big even for the power cost. The power cost on rift and relativly low damage per target make it not worth the trouble except on very large encounters. The average raid encounter is 1-5 mobs. Fusion will result in 11k-45k of damage to those encounters whereas Rift will result in 4k-25k. Stack this up encounter after encounter and Locks fall farther and farther behind. This isn't even factoring in the hazards resulting from using Rift, the range is so wide that its very dangerous to use in raid zones on most occasions. Evidence of the disparity in usefullness can be seen in the fact that Rift Slam accounts for around 2-3% of an average locks raid damage, while Fusion accounts for ~10% of a wizzies dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fusion is actually the best single AE spell in the game, Apocolypse can't even stand up to in the ideal situation of a 5 mob encounter. Apocolypse hits for an everage of 1200 per tick, damage of 6k per mob, for a total dmg of 30k on the encounter. Fusion will generally hit 3 of the mobs in the same encounter for around 11k per mob for a total dmg of 33k.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want to see fusion nerfed in anyway, I would just like to see rift changed to make it more useful. On that note, I have two suggestions for possible changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Double the damage and make the radius the same as Chaos Storm (5m I believe), change max targets to 5. This would result in 10-50k per encounter</DIV> <DIV>   depending on ideal or less than ideal conditions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Since Wizzies are single target specialists in possesion of the best single AE spell (albeit on a long recast), make Warlocks AE specialists in possesion</DIV> <DIV>   of the best single target spell (albeit on a long recast). Change Rift to a single target DD spell, ~15k or so should be good.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<P>You fogeting 1 but important thing</P> <P>Rift = ZERO hate </P> <P>Fusion = DEAD wizard</P> <P>Second thing is less important - fusion is frontal AoE and cone is fairly narrow 15 degree? so Fusion hit usually 1-2 target within encounter if I am not mistaken.... Rift is true PBAE 12 targets max out of encounter with zero argo attached to its good complementary spell with Chaostorm basically by casting those 2 spells back to back you do on whole area around you around 5-7.5K damage stunning and interupting everything around. I have only 1 complain about Rift which is casting speed - 5.0s is rediculous</P> <P>P.S. If my memory serve me well Fusion have MAXIMUM hit of 11K at Maxed Int and M1 level, Rift have maxed damage 5K at M1 and max int</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <P>You fogeting 1 but important thing</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>the important thing is the original poster is complaining about the spell sucking against single targets.</P> <P>Instead of comparing an entire warlocks spell line up for a 3 mob encounter (obviously raid since he's referring to that) he's narrowed down his point of view to just one spell and fixated on it.</P> <P>Warlocks have vastly better aoe's than any wizard can hope for(aside from the op's fixation on rift and fusion).  </P> <P>So whats the real issue here?  Is the original poster getting beat by wizards on aoe encounters? is the dps gap close and they want to further it? Do they want to do good dps against single targets?</P>

[Fat T]

lol, rift is fine.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Yep point is Rift is fine and well balanced against Fusion and if anything to complain here about its a casting time</DIV>

[Baielfire]

<DIV>The point about Rift generating ZERO hate is somewhat debatable. It does seem to generate less than other AE spells, but it does generate some in my experience. Fusion also doesn't result in death to a wiz who knows how and when to use it. Not sure about the exact numbers on the degree involved with the cone but it seems to be fairly consistant that our wizzies can hit 3 targets with it, either they are just experts at it's use or it's not that difficult. As for the maximum hits, I am just going off what the average numbers listed in the parser were after a merged week of raiding. We all (should) know that a spells listed damage and what it hits for are completely different things due to standard debuffs, acheivment specs, Dispatch etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was "fixating" on these two spells because they are obviously comparable, same lvl, same recast, same cast, same power power cost I think. Both classes got a single 100% original spell in KoS expansion and I think that they should be relativly comparable. I never said I was worried about single mob encounters, I said I was complaining about the fact that fusion is useful on virtually every encounter vs. Rift which is really only useful once you pass 5 or more and only on par once you pass 8-9 mobs. On your standard 1-5 mob encounters fusion beats rift hands down. If rift did comparable damage on the 3-5 mob encounters I wouldn't be complaining at all. It should also be noted that I wasn't comparing anything to do with DPS, I was looking at total damage done through multiple zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if a wiz wanted to complain about the usefullness of their DoF spells vs. ours. I would probably support them in an effort to get those upgraded. For an interesting tidbit, check out how much of your damage comes from Dark Infestation and the broodlings proc through a raid zone sometime.</DIV>

[Fat T]

So you have an issue with game mechanics and not the spell Rift in itself?  I see your major complaint is that you don't go over 5 mobs very often so it sounds like game mechanics is more your issue.<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Baielfire wrote:<BR> <DIV>The point about Rift generating ZERO hate is somewhat debatable. It does seem to generate less than other AE spells, but it does generate some in my experience. Fusion also doesn't result in death to a wiz who knows how and when to use it. Not sure about the exact numbers on the degree involved with the cone but it seems to be fairly consistant that our wizzies can hit 3 targets with it, either they are just experts at it's use or it's not that difficult. As for the maximum hits, I am just going off what the average numbers listed in the parser were after a merged week of raiding. We all (should) know that a spells listed damage and what it hits for are completely different things due to standard debuffs, acheivment specs, Dispatch etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was "fixating" on these two spells because they are obviously comparable, same lvl, same recast, same cast, same power power cost I think. Both classes got a single 100% original spell in KoS expansion and I think that they should be relativly comparable. I never said I was worried about single mob encounters, I said I was complaining about the fact that fusion is useful on virtually every encounter vs. Rift which is really only useful once you pass 5 or more and only on par once you pass 8-9 mobs. On your standard 1-5 mob encounters fusion beats rift hands down. If rift did comparable damage on the 3-5 mob encounters I wouldn't be complaining at all. It should also be noted that I wasn't comparing anything to do with DPS, I was looking at total damage done through multiple zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if a wiz wanted to complain about the usefullness of their DoF spells vs. ours. I would probably support them in an effort to get those upgraded. For an interesting tidbit, check out how much of your damage comes from Dark Infestation and the broodlings proc through a raid zone sometime.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>wizard DOF *ancient* spells completely rock.  I think they should have done the same with kos, but they only had fusion.  Surging tempest is a must for soloing stunnable caster named, who else wouldn't mind a 1.5s stun every 8s for 48seconds?  Forge of ro even though its gone through more nerfs than the ranger class, still puts out good dps and on top of that its a 1k heat debuff.  Numbing cold is an awesome kiting spell for wizards, and doesn't randomly teleport mobs like the warlock equivilant does.  If anything I think the warlock ancient spells need upgrading from dof.</P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well lets not foget what DI do in conjuction with Neth Realm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so warlocks ancient spells are ok except for Null Caress - total waste</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rift also have nice option that it is out of encounter and as a such have quite a few uses in conjuction with chaostorm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Fat T]

DI-chaostorm-rift-chaostorm ftw!  <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div>Well lets not foget what DI do in conjuction with Neth Realm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so warlocks ancient spells are ok except for Null Caress - total waste</div> <div> </div> <div>Rift also have nice option that it is out of encounter and as a such have quite a few uses in conjuction with chaostorm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Null Caress---totally got about 800x more useful after LU24...Sorcerers need as much deaggro as they can possibly get no matter how you slice it.  Add in the fact that you can teleport/deaggro adds during a raid that are running around aggroing you/others, it has some very nice uses.  The only thing that pisses me off is the fact that it can just teleport a mob 1m away (still on top of you).  I think it needs to be changed to "teleports target five to twenty-five meters away" not "up to 25 meters."<div></div>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well lets not foget what DI do in conjuction with Neth Realm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so warlocks ancient spells are ok except for Null Caress - total waste</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rift also have nice option that it is out of encounter and as a such have quite a few uses in conjuction with chaostorm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Null Caress---totally got about 800x more useful after LU24...Sorcerers need as much deaggro as they can possibly get no matter how you slice it.  Add in the fact that you can teleport/deaggro adds during a raid that are running around aggroing you/others, it has some very nice uses. <STRONG> The only thing that pisses me off is the fact that it can just teleport a mob 1m away (still on top of you).  I think it needs to be changed to "teleports target five to twenty-five meters away" not "up to 25 meters."<BR></STRONG> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have to agree with this one. The randomness of the distance can be annoying. As to Rift, while I do agree that we rarely fight more than 4-5 mobs at a time, I still like using it when the [Removed for Content] hits the fan and the tank and healer need a few seconds respite. The 5 second casting time is a bit of a pain, but then again I think most of our cast times are still too long..<BR>

[Korpo]

I use Rift constantly. Chaostorm-Rift-Chaostorm will seriously put the hurt on a bunch of green/blues that are mobbing you.Yeah Fusion is better for most raids, but that's because most raids are single target type encounters. I have no problem with wizards having better spells for singles, I just wish for more group-oriented raids <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Windowlicker]

I always thought it would be nice if Rift was Ranged AE (non encounter)<div></div>

[Fat T]

That would be cool.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Ppl what agro you are talking about????</DIV> <DIV>In group enviroment unless we are talking about Nizra dangeon warlock in semi[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty gear with semigood single healer can TANK most heroic encounters.</DIV> <DIV>I honestly dont have enouth imagination to figure what need to do warlock in order to pull agro on raid as long as you have right group set up</DIV> <DIV>Since later days then Nill Crystall stopped been PITA to get I use Rift every time its up</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ppl what agro you are talking about????</DIV> <DIV>In group enviroment unless we are talking about Nizra dangeon warlock in semi[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty gear with semigood single healer can TANK most heroic encounters.</DIV> <DIV>I honestly dont have enouth imagination to figure what need to do warlock in order to pull agro on raid as long as you have right group set up</DIV> <DIV>Since later days then Nill Crystall stopped been PITA to get I use Rift every time its up</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>tanking and being beat on are two very separate things. casters can get beat on by heroic mobs (white or lower) and live with a good healer.  but to say we are tanking is not a valid point.  stuns stifles interrupts make holding agro with a group very difficult espeically with mediocre hp/mit/avoidence

[Fat T]

<DIV>Pull with Appocalypse and follow up w/ Absolution and you don't have to worry about anyone else ganking aggro from you.  :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Hah if you have coercer with M1 Enraging Demeanor and M1 Harmonious Link specialized in STA with paladin tanking ... not a chance. You can pull with Freehand Sorc enhanced critical hit from Apocal on brigand debuffed mob (aka 2400+ per tic) ...... and STILL dont get agro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On other hand .... SK/Monk/Bruiser tanking ..... no coercer .... no troubadur .... hell no dirge even... Wait till mob burned down to [b]50%[b] before even start nuking with .... Nebula (haha) second spell concurssion then Freehand Busted Absolution crit .... roflmao now YOU the tank</DIV>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div>Hah if you have coercer with M1 Enraging Demeanor and M1 Harmonious Link specialized in STA with paladin tanking ... not a chance. You can pull with Freehand Sorc enhanced critical hit from Apocal on brigand debuffed mob (aka 2400+ per tic) ...... and STILL dont get agro</div> <div> </div> <div>On other hand .... SK/Monk/Bruiser tanking ..... no coercer .... no troubadur .... hell no dirge even... Wait till mob burned down to [b]50%[b] before even start nuking with .... Nebula (haha) second spell concurssion then Freehand Busted Absolution crit .... roflmao now YOU the tank</div><hr></blockquote>You are so stupid.<div></div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Say what smart [Removed for Content]?</DIV>