Any other warlocks having this problem?

[Thorze]

<div>I get a group to do a few instances.  The group is made up of a pally,  two clerics, monk, ranger, and me (warlock).  All ranged from level 57-60.</div><div> </div><div>The pally pulls the mob which are either ^^ or ^^^ he gains agro and I start to cast just one spell it lands and go to cast another and the mob is dead.  OK, np... the next pull is a a group of three ^^, so being that alot of our spells are AE to the ecounter, I start to cast devastation and before it even lands due to the cast time the first mob of three is dead.  You can see where this is going.  This was the entire instance. </div><div> </div><div>One other thing that I would like to point out.  I did start to cast probably at the same time the pally was getting ready to pull.  This caused me to pull the agro from the tank.</div><div> </div><div>I dont want to continue to beat this subject into the ground but something really needs to be fixed.  And...I'm not even talking about being top DPS class though it would be nice since that is why I picked the class. Im talking about having a purpose in a group.  Warlocks seem to benefit more soloing then grouping and they have almost no contribution to a group.</div><div> </div><div>The damage our spells can do is impressive.  The cast times on them is absolutely ridiculous.</div><div> </div><div>Ok I'm done whinning.:smileyhappy:</div>

[Araxes]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Thorzeen wrote:...<div>I start to cast devastation and before it even lands due to the cast time the first mob of three is dead.  You can see where this is going. ...</div><hr></blockquote>This has been one of the primary issues in regard to warlock cast times vs. mob difficulty.  I'm of the opinion that certain other classes are overpowered and thus the mobs are dying too fast.  SOE has said over and over that it does not want to revert to "mob bloating" with an increase in HP for the plain sake of making battles seem more tough / lasting longer.  The only avenue then is to assume that some classes are overpowered.  Or to reduce our casting times - which would then make us overpowered and perhaps bring an irreversible aggro gain onto our backs.I'd rather see other classes adjusted (I'm thinking here of the scout classes primarily which - as I see it - do entirely too much damage in too short a timespan and have no power restraints such as mage classes do - even rangers and swashbucklers I've grouped with have admitted feeling over powered - lol) before mob HP is bloated to our cast times are reduced.  I feel our class is fairlyu well balanced as it is.A final solution would be to <b>simply allow the casting process to continue even after a mob dies and a new one is selected - when it is a linked-encounter AE spell being readied - so long as one mob in the encounter is standing the nuke would continue to cast.</b></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Vicontessa on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:25 PM</span></p>

[svek]

First of all, yes mobs die way too fast if you ask me.The solution to this would simply be add more hp's andincrease the xp for them but that's another story.As for not being able to land before you get yourfirst AE off target another mob than the one all thesingle target dps's are hitting.I wouldn't mind lowering the casting times but using adifferent target than the assist is what I do untill then.<div></div>

[D-lirium]

I think there is not one warlock that doesn't think our casting-times should be shortened by 50% or so, we waste alot of time in casting and that's a reason why our dps in groups sucks vs other aoe-able classes. Heck... selecting a target that isn't the main assist target doesn't even work sometimes in raids, the other encounter members die just as fast with all the other AE classes.Another fix that would be nice if the game would remember vs which encounter the aoe spell was casted at and would hit regardless if the target it was casted on died.<div></div>

[Araxes]

<span><blockquote><hr>D-lirium wrote:Another fix that would be nice if the game would remember vs which encounter the aoe spell was casted at and would hit regardless if the target it was casted on died.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Exactly what I was getting at.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Aesty]

Yes, pretty annoying.  While I would prefer a shorter casting time on the AE spells, at least remembering the encounter would be a good step.<div></div>

[Geoff]

<div></div>well while i do agree that out spell casting times could be tweaked a little, one thing you're just going to have to get used to is targeting a mob in the group that is not the main target, in order to get alot of your aoes off.  If you're using an MA, simply click your assist macro, and then tab to the next one. 

[Maelwy]

Unfortunately, off targeting in a raid situation really upsets our raid coordinators. WE know its needed, but since they dont 'get it' we look like the bad guys if we do it.Now, to the op - something i've noticed with many pallies and sk's, is their reliance on their old range spells to pull. This works fine for some group situations, but can cause social aggro from some mobs, such as the spiders in return to nek, and other zones where body pulling is necessary. It also builds little initial aggro, similar to bow pulling for non crusaders.Get to know your tanks. With tanks who pull with a taunt, starting your 4 second cast as soon as the tank moves in may work fine. but again, very situational issues come into play...examples --- 5 mob encounter - tank usually opens combat with a solo taunt ho. If he uses his single taunt first, finishing his ho with an aoe taunt,your devastation may hit between the time the first single taunt hits, and before the aoe taunt goes off. If so, you've probably got 4 mobs on you, while the tank has 1.-- 5 mob encounter again, but this tank opens with an aoe taunt. 4 mobs take the taunt, 1 resists. Devastation hits, and you end up with 1 mob on you, 4 on the tank.How the tank responds to these situations will show you the measure of the tanks skill. Pallies definately have an edge here, if you've got amends on you.All I can say for advice, is to get to know a good group of tanks, and stop standing on the docks /lfg. Log in, check friends list. Grab a good tank, grab a good defiler and a fury. Search frantically for a troub, and form a group. Building a group of competant KNOWN players that works well togethor is key. Even if they are all strangers, having a group thats well built will do much to alleviate your pain, the tanks frustration, and the healers nervous twitches.<p>Message Edited by Maelwys1 on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:01 AM</span></p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vicontessa wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Thorzeen wrote:...<div><font size="3">I start to cast devastation and before it even lands due to the cast time the first mob of three is dead.  You can see where this is going. </font>...</div><hr></blockquote>This has been one of the primary issues in regard to warlock cast times vs. mob difficulty.  I'm of the opinion that certain other classes are overpowered and thus the mobs are dying too fast.  SOE has said over and over that it does not want to revert to "mob bloating" with an increase in HP for the plain sake of making battles seem more tough / lasting longer.  The only avenue then is to assume that some classes are overpowered.  Or to reduce our casting times - which would then make us overpowered and perhaps bring an irreversible aggro gain onto our backs.I'd rather see other classes adjusted (I'm thinking here of the scout classes primarily which - as I see it - do entirely too much damage in too short a timespan and have no power restraints such as mage classes do - even rangers and swashbucklers I've grouped with have admitted feeling over powered - lol) before mob HP is bloated to our cast times are reduced.  I feel our class is fairlyu well balanced as it is.A final solution would be to <b>simply allow the casting process to continue even after a mob dies and a new one is selected - when it is a linked-encounter AE spell being readied - so long as one mob in the encounter is standing the nuke would continue to cast.</b></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Vicontessa on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:25 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Welcome to the first 9 months of being a conjuror, drive through plz. Oh and its the scouts that are causing that, the other mages don't compare to your guyses burst dps, long cast time or not.

[Darkcreat]

<div></div><p>That's just completely and totally false OperationsX.</p><p>EVERY parse in every thread on the forum, as well as all the parses of my guild and many other peoples guilds show that Summoners outdamage Sorcerors hands down.</p><p>Another thing. The concept of "Burst" dps is in direct conflict with "long cast times."</p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darkcreator wrote:<div></div><p>That's just completely and totally false OperationsX.</p><p>EVERY parse in every thread on the forum, as well as all the parses of my guild and many other peoples guilds show that Summoners outdamage Sorcerors hands down.</p><p>Another thing. The concept of "Burst" dps is in direct conflict with "long cast times."</p><hr></blockquote><p>/yawns, I have a parser too, on ^^^ mobs the wizard wins 80% of the time, unless there is a lack of dps and its JUST the wizard and conjuror for dps, then the mob will last longer than 25 seconds and yes the summoner will win, we are king of sustained dps.</p><p>This goes for warlocks as well, a group of mobs, warlock wins, especially if no arrows huge group and not lasting over 25 seconds, these are all 'burst' instances. If its a ^^^ + ^ or ^^ + ^^ , I win.</p><p>When it comes to groups its pretty balanced, just admit that and be over with it. When it comes to raids yes sorcerers are not balanced, just please know your situations before you post what you think is 'completely true'.</p>

[Darkcreat]

<div>LOL there's nothing to admit because in any group the mobs are dead before the warlock can even get off a spell. This is what you call "burst dps" by the way.</div><div>Maybe you should try familiarizing yourself with the class a little better before commenting.</div>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darkcreator wrote:<div>LOL there's nothing to admit because in any group the mobs are dead before the warlock can even get off a spell. This is what you call "burst dps" by the way.</div><div>Maybe you should try familiarizing yourself with the class a little better before commenting.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Or maybe you should familiarize yourself with reality, unless your fighting a buncha double down arrow mobs there's no way mobs will die before the warlock can get off a spell lol, the shortest parsed fight I had ever had was 11 seconds, warlock got in devastation, nil absolution and bearly a dark nebula pretty much ending the fight, this was with a buncha BURST scout classes as well.</p><p>Tell your group to stop fighting mulitiple solo mobs, thanks.</p>

[BaronVonPitviper]

<div></div><p>Try doing a Lockjaw raid, the trash mobs are all heroic. You can't even get a deva or abso1/8th of the way cast.</p><p> </p><p>I usually just autofollow a healer and surf the web on this raid. All they need from me is Aspect anyway.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Mode]

<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p> </p><p>  </p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p>

[Spag]

<div></div>I was in an XP group with a conj recently and was running stats.  It was a toss up between us who would have the higher DPS, though usually him.  The problem is he never once gained aggro, where I had done so many times yet he was out damaging me.  I had to start holding back some to save from aggro, yet he could continue without fear of aggro.  So not only can they beat us single target, and groups, they can do so without fear of aggro.  I am simply amazed at what I can do with my own lower level conj.

[Korpo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The only time I do less damage than a summoner on a raid is when the mob is poison immune or when I'm AFK. Ever think that maybe it's a certain warlock doing something wrong?</span></div>

[Mode]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The only time I do less damage than a summoner on a raid is when the mob is poison immune or when I'm AFK. Ever think that maybe it's a certain warlock doing something wrong?</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Or is it possible your necros are newbs? Necros are sold 1k+ dps on any X4 mobs not resistant to Disease... Tell me your a 1200+ dps warlock and I will re-evaluate what I'm doing wrong...</p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BaronVonPitviper wrote:<div></div><p>Try doing a Lockjaw raid, the trash mobs are all heroic. You can't even get a deva or abso1/8th of the way cast.</p><p> </p><p>I usually just autofollow a healer and surf the web on this raid. All they need from me is Aspect anyway.</p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>I was referring to groups, and when you have a raid is scouts causing that insanely high burst damage so that you seem useless, not us. Trust me we are a sustained dps class not burst, we couldn't do as much quick damage even risking our lives.

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p> </p><p>  </p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>ON RAIDS you are underpowered, Summoners aren't overpowered at all as we can be out dpsed by lots of scouts and even a fighter or two depending on who is MTing (berserker with rampage and open wounds anyone?)</p><p>In group mobs I challange you to find a 15 second or below parse where the summoner came ahead and the wizard/warlock had ALL their spells up and ready, go for it.</p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Spagma wrote:<div></div>I was in an XP group with a conj recently and was running stats.  It was a toss up between us who would have the higher DPS, though usually him.  The problem is he never once gained aggro, where I had done so many times yet he was out damaging me.  I had to start holding back some to save from aggro, yet he could continue without fear of aggro.  So not only can they beat us single target, and groups, they can do so without fear of aggro.  I am simply amazed at what I can do with my own lower level conj.<hr></blockquote><p>This is a common misconseption, without a doubt a conjurors pet has BY far the highest aggro generation in the game, I can guarantee grab aggro if I'm going all out, even if I don't want to I still will. Infact the common raid leader saying before we do a big boss mob goes 'Conjurors plz watch your aggro'</p><p>In groups though your kinda correct until we get Blazing presence, then mobs will always go after the pet first unless you like Ice comet / devastation the second the mob comes over or some stuff lol</p>

[Mode]

<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>ON RAIDS you are underpowered, Summoners aren't overpowered at all as we can be out dpsed by lots of scouts and even a fighter or two depending on who is MTing (berserker with rampage and open wounds anyone?)</p><p>In group mobs I challange you to find a 15 second or below parse where the summoner came ahead and the wizard/warlock had ALL their spells up and ready, go for it.</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Oh I guess I missed it warlocks and Wizards are the King of 15 second fights and we are the Jesters on all fights over 45 seconds. I knew I should have read that fine print.</p>

[Junaru]

Sadly this is the main reason I switched to a Monk. Cast times were just killing the fun. There is nothing worse then fighting a group of mobs and only landing one spell..My 46 Monk will out damage our 49 Warlock in normal grouping 90% of the time. It's not cause Monks are Gods, it's cause Warlocks need loven from SOE. Sure Warlocks do great damage when we land spells, it's just that we don't get the chance to land them.<div></div>

[Spag]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Spagma wrote:<div></div>I was in an XP group with a conj recently and was running stats.  It was a toss up between us who would have the higher DPS, though usually him.  The problem is he never once gained aggro, where I had done so many times yet he was out damaging me.  I had to start holding back some to save from aggro, yet he could continue without fear of aggro.  So not only can they beat us single target, and groups, they can do so without fear of aggro.  I am simply amazed at what I can do with my own lower level conj.<hr></blockquote><p>This is a common misconseption, without a doubt a conjurors pet has BY far the highest aggro generation in the game, I can guarantee grab aggro if I'm going all out, even if I don't want to I still will. Infact the common raid leader saying before we do a big boss mob goes 'Conjurors plz watch your aggro'</p><p>In groups though your kinda correct until we get Blazing presence, then mobs will always go after the pet first unless you like Ice comet / devastation the second the mob comes over or some stuff lol</p><hr></blockquote>How is this a mis conception, this is what happened.  His DPS was higher just about every encounter, yet I was the one pulling aggro.  If he was not going all out, yet still beating me in DPS, then there is something wrong there.  The only time his pet drew aggro was when he sent it out while the tank was coming back with the pull. 

[Guitar_Guru]

Ageed with the OP.  We need to contribute more to the group, not just return to teh 00B3R l33t T1 damage.  All that damage means NOTHING if we just get killed as soon as we cast our first few spells, just because we have aggro problem.  I've been leveling a Ranger, currently 22, and find that the aggro transfer of 12.5% makes  a HUGE differance.  I think all DPS types should have SOME KIND of aggro managing spell like this.  However, I dont think that the spell should be the be-all-and-end-all of aggro managing solutions.  part of being in a group is comunicating and working together to defeat harder opponents, meaning that the DPS classes should have to hold off a little.  If they are allowed to go all out, then yellow ^^^ mobs will just be trivialized IMHO.  From the perspective of a 28 Guardian, holding aggro IS a challenge, but it shouldnt be impossible. . .<div></div>

[Korpo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The only time I do less damage than a summoner on a raid is when the mob is poison immune or when I'm AFK. Ever think that maybe it's a certain warlock doing something wrong?</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Or is it possible your necros are newbs? Necros are sold 1k+ dps on any X4 mobs not resistant to Disease... Tell me your a 1200+ dps warlock and I will re-evaluate what I'm doing wrong...</p><hr></blockquote>Depends on the raid of course, but if we're running around SCx4 (picked because we tend to spend a lot of time farming eyes, and because mobs there aren't generally immune to anything) our necro/conjs usually are 900-1000dps. Rangers are somewhere in that area too. I'm usually in the 1200-1300 ballpark, as is our other warlock when he's along. When we take out the giant golem things in the same area, I usually drop to more like 1000 because they're single targets that last a lot longer, and things like NR and gift don't help as much. Same thing goes for the bouncer things.</span></div>

[Rapsodomy]

<div></div><div>Going back to the original query...</div><div>If mobs are dead before you get a hit off, then you just need tougher mobs.</div><div> </div><div>You can adapt to the mobs.</div><div>We have a good range of fast casting spells, and we also get insane burst damage, as it's termed.</div><div> </div><div>Off targetting is very tricky, and should be used carefully, and perhaps with permission of the tank cuz it's him who's gonna have to try and peel the mob offa you.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>If it's already dead, then there's nothing for us to worry about.</div><div> </div><div>Rav.</div><div> </div>

[Mode]

<div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The only time I do less damage than a summoner on a raid is when the mob is poison immune or when I'm AFK. Ever think that maybe it's a certain warlock doing something wrong?</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Or is it possible your necros are newbs? Necros are sold 1k+ dps on any X4 mobs not resistant to Disease... Tell me your a 1200+ dps warlock and I will re-evaluate what I'm doing wrong...</p><hr></blockquote>Depends on the raid of course, but if we're running around SCx4 (picked because we tend to spend a lot of time farming eyes, and because mobs there aren't generally immune to anything) our necro/conjs usually are 900-1000dps. Rangers are somewhere in that area too. I'm usually in the 1200-1300 ballpark, as is our other warlock when he's along. When we take out the giant golem things in the same area, I usually drop to more like 1000 because they're single targets that last a lot longer, and things like NR and gift don't help as much. Same thing goes for the bouncer things.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Ok then your necros dont play correctly then... because on the same mobs SCX4's Here is my dps compared to a necro in my guild named nimmh.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/tremblardpsmodandme.gif"></div>

[Slyg]

<div></div>I have to agree, as a warlock, I cannot, in a raid, out dps the necros or summoners in this type of setting.  And if I come close, it usually means I am splattered to some part of mapped world.  I do not have the parse figures handy .. however we were having some fun the other night with seeing who could parse the highest as we fought these x4 mobs in SC ... I was consistently lower than necro's and summoners

[Fat T]

<div></div><div></div><p>Yeah, I have the problem in group.  I CAN do massive damage in a raid setting, but I would just be throwing gp to the mender.</p><p> </p><p>One fix possibly that I haven't seen mentioned (in this thread) would be decrease our cast times, but increase re-cast.  We have enough spells to suppliment a longer re-cast time, but not enough hps/mitigation to live long enough to get a stun/root off so we can be healed.</p><p> </p><p>Another thing I got beef with is:</p><p> </p><p>If we're an "AE class" [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] don't we have an AE aggro reducer?  We get 2 single target ones that I've yet seen work, either I'm dead (usually) or the mob is dead before the mob turns back to the tank.</p><p>Message Edited by Fat T on <span class="date_text">02-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:12 PM</span></p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The only time I do less damage than a summoner on a raid is when the mob is poison immune or when I'm AFK. Ever think that maybe it's a certain warlock doing something wrong?</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Or is it possible your necros are newbs? Necros are sold 1k+ dps on any X4 mobs not resistant to Disease... Tell me your a 1200+ dps warlock and I will re-evaluate what I'm doing wrong...</p><hr></blockquote>Depends on the raid of course, but if we're running around SCx4 (picked because we tend to spend a lot of time farming eyes, and because mobs there aren't generally immune to anything) our necro/conjs usually are 900-1000dps. Rangers are somewhere in that area too. I'm usually in the 1200-1300 ballpark, as is our other warlock when he's along. When we take out the giant golem things in the same area, I usually drop to more like 1000 because they're single targets that last a lot longer, and things like NR and gift don't help as much. Same thing goes for the bouncer things.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Ok then your necros dont play correctly then... because on the same mobs SCX4's Here is my dps compared to a necro in my guild named nimmh.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/tremblardpsmodandme.gif"></div><hr></blockquote>Uh ok what exactly is wrong about that? He was on the mob 4 seconds longer and only out dpsed you by not even 100, were all of your spells even up? I honestly don't see the problem here.

[OperationsX]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Spagma wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Spagma wrote:<div></div>I was in an XP group with a conj recently and was running stats.  It was a toss up between us who would have the higher DPS, though usually him.  The problem is he never once gained aggro, where I had done so many times yet he was out damaging me.  I had to start holding back some to save from aggro, yet he could continue without fear of aggro.  So not only can they beat us single target, and groups, they can do so without fear of aggro.  I am simply amazed at what I can do with my own lower level conj.<hr></blockquote><p>This is a common misconseption, without a doubt a conjurors pet has BY far the highest aggro generation in the game, I can guarantee grab aggro if I'm going all out, even if I don't want to I still will. Infact the common raid leader saying before we do a big boss mob goes 'Conjurors plz watch your aggro'</p><p>In groups though your kinda correct until we get Blazing presence, then mobs will always go after the pet first unless you like Ice comet / devastation the second the mob comes over or some stuff lol</p><hr></blockquote>How is this a mis conception, this is what happened.  His DPS was higher just about every encounter, yet I was the one pulling aggro.  If he was not going all out, yet still beating me in DPS, then there is something wrong there.  The only time his pet drew aggro was when he sent it out while the tank was coming back with the pull. <hr></blockquote>Ok lol... maybe not in this situation ther was nothing to mis comprehend , I was simply stating its a 'common' misconseption that we can do more damage with less aggro. May I ask what level this conjuror was? If it was pre Blazing presence then its no surprise he didn't grab aggro over you, about him outdamaging you though /shrug goes back to situation , once he gets blazing presence though and elemental vestement his pet will be the most hated thing in the world, that's what gets us most of our dps btw and we almost ALWAYS gain aggro from it, especially if used at the same time<p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">02-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:53 PM</span></p>

[Mode]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The only time I do less damage than a summoner on a raid is when the mob is poison immune or when I'm AFK. Ever think that maybe it's a certain warlock doing something wrong?</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Or is it possible your necros are newbs? Necros are sold 1k+ dps on any X4 mobs not resistant to Disease... Tell me your a 1200+ dps warlock and I will re-evaluate what I'm doing wrong...</p><hr></blockquote>Depends on the raid of course, but if we're running around SCx4 (picked because we tend to spend a lot of time farming eyes, and because mobs there aren't generally immune to anything) our necro/conjs usually are 900-1000dps. Rangers are somewhere in that area too. I'm usually in the 1200-1300 ballpark, as is our other warlock when he's along. When we take out the giant golem things in the same area, I usually drop to more like 1000 because they're single targets that last a lot longer, and things like NR and gift don't help as much. Same thing goes for the bouncer things.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Ok then your necros dont play correctly then... because on the same mobs SCX4's Here is my dps compared to a necro in my guild named nimmh.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/tremblardpsmodandme.gif"></div><hr></blockquote>Uh ok what exactly is wrong about that? He was on the mob 4 seconds longer and only out dpsed you by not even 100, were all of your spells even up? I honestly don't see the problem here.<hr></blockquote><p>You dont see the problem??? First he was on the mobs 4 seconds longer because he can engage a mob faster without fear of agro because he sends pets which have their own hate list unless killed, we I have to at least wait for the tank to taunt once before i can start casting. Second you dont see a problem with a necro beating a warlock when a necro can FD, Heal, Resurect, Stamina Buff, split there agro with a pet, and never run out of mana? are you a Necro?</p><p> </p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Without questions summoners are over powered or we are underpowered. I parse 24 / 7 on raids and it is not possible to beat a necro or a conj on epic x4 encounters unless there is no ^^^ epic mob in the encounter. This usually means there are 5 to 10 ^^^ or ^^ non epic mobs (this is mobs with less then 100k hp's a epic mob has 400k+) grouped together to form a epic group.</p><p>If your a summoner and getting beat on raids in dps by wizards or warlocks then your doing something really wrong.</p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The only time I do less damage than a summoner on a raid is when the mob is poison immune or when I'm AFK. Ever think that maybe it's a certain warlock doing something wrong?</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Or is it possible your necros are newbs? Necros are sold 1k+ dps on any X4 mobs not resistant to Disease... Tell me your a 1200+ dps warlock and I will re-evaluate what I'm doing wrong...</p><hr></blockquote>Depends on the raid of course, but if we're running around SCx4 (picked because we tend to spend a lot of time farming eyes, and because mobs there aren't generally immune to anything) our necro/conjs usually are 900-1000dps. Rangers are somewhere in that area too. I'm usually in the 1200-1300 ballpark, as is our other warlock when he's along. When we take out the giant golem things in the same area, I usually drop to more like 1000 because they're single targets that last a lot longer, and things like NR and gift don't help as much. Same thing goes for the bouncer things.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Ok then your necros dont play correctly then... because on the same mobs SCX4's Here is my dps compared to a necro in my guild named nimmh.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/tremblardpsmodandme.gif"></div><hr></blockquote>Uh ok what exactly is wrong about that? He was on the mob 4 seconds longer and only out dpsed you by not even 100, were all of your spells even up? I honestly don't see the problem here.<hr></blockquote><p>You dont see the problem??? First he was on the mobs 4 seconds longer because he can engage a mob faster without fear of agro because he sends pets which have their own hate list unless killed, we I have to at least wait for the tank to taunt once before i can start casting. Second you dont see a problem with a necro beating a warlock when a necro can FD, Heal, Resurect, Stamina Buff, split there agro with a pet, and never run out of mana? are you a Necro?</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>No I'm a conjuror, again I don't see the problem, he hardly out dpsed you, these mobs last long where a sustained dps class like a necro would have the advantage and he *bearly* did, infact this parse is pretty perfect if you ask me.</p><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">02-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:17 AM</span></p>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><p>That's nothing. The worst group I have ever been in for me was Berserker, Wizard, Conjuror, Fury, Conjuror, Necromancer</p><p>Now that group could destroy mobs in like 4 seconds flat. If you wana see burst DPS take a loot at a Conjuror with BP and EV and their Shatered Land + pet. Basically all I would do is cast BOI and thats it and contribute a mere 2-3k DMG</p><p>The Conjurors on the other hand were doing 5-6 DMG in that same time frame.</p><p>The reason you see summoners doing so much dmg in group mobs is because they have fast cast times + pets that can put proc buffs on. In other words they can burst a lot of DMG real fast. Where as wizards have long cast times and huge DOTs that take 40 seconds to complete.</p><p>In longer fights Wizards can almost catch up to summoner DPS in longer fights like raids, but in short fights they are no match for the burst DPS that summoners can provide.</p><p>Summoners have like 7 DOTs and 5 DD spells while Wizards have like 11 DOTs and 5 DD spells.</p></blockquote>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><p>I think that Wizards should be the sustained single target DPS Kings and Warlocks the Sustained AoE DPS Kings.</p><p> </p><p>Burst DPS should not come into consideration. Even though Wizards suck at burst DPS Warlocks can do pretty well by Devestaining a large group.</p><p>Warlock's aren't even the AoE DPS Kings atm. That goes to Conjurors. If you wana see a burst DPS machine look no further than a Conjuror. They can burst 12k DPS and sustain 4-5k on large groups of mobs.</p>