Why is everyone so worried about DPS?

[Roriondesexiest]

<DIV>I was going to add this to one of the posts where everyone is complaining about not being able to do enough DPS or if they do they pull aggro from the tank, but figured it deserved it's own thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the mob you are fighting dies, and everyone is still alive, what's the problem?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the mob dies and we don't get an AOE off isn't that good?  We saved power and the mob is still dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do plenty of damage, and everyone in my group ooh's and aah's when I cast my big AOE and the mobs all die at once.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for pulling aggro from the tank what the heck are you guys doing, opening up with all your aoe's? or grouping with monks and paladins for tanks?  (no offense to those classes but I don't think they have the taunting ability of berserkers and guardians)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can go out grouping with a troubador and dirge with no tank and yes I can steal the aggro from them if I wanted to but we do just fine with one of them tanking, and me building up to my bigger spells.  What happens, mob dies, we get loot, yay!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you can't hack it go play one of the popular classes like a ranger, they do good dps and have lots of aggro management abilites.  I like the fact that there are so few Warlocks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Omaplata</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tiranus62]

Completly agree. Very fun to see how players a trying to be in the top DSP dealers, Juste for the satisfaction to say "I'm the best DSP !" Remove your parsing tool and just enjoy playing with your friends...

[CrimsonAveng]

<P><FONT size=3>Well, I for one have started playing a new class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I have no problem NOT taking tank aggro, I dont want it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>But it kinda sucks that our real & only good DPS is AOE and most of the time in group or raid situations casting one of those will get you 1 or 2 shotted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>But beyond the numbers there is another reason to have our full dps realized: spots in groups or raids.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>You all been in groups or raids where the last couple of spots are determined by the class if everything else is equal.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Example: 'okay we need more dps. we got a 56 wizard, a 56 ranger, or a 56 warlock.' Then the consensus will be pick the ranger or wizard b/c of more dps for less risk.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Or how about those times when the 24th or 12th raid spot went to the scout or other type mage b/c the raid was one of the many 'no aoe here' raids.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I'm not bitter. I've played my warlock since day one when we were gimped for 3 months. Then I played him through the golden age. Now I only pull him out to solo faries when I need a quick infusion of cash (or work on my destroyer title). But frankly, my healer is more needed and in demand (how many 4x raids have you had cancelled for lack of dps? answer: none. but it happens for lack of healers all the time it seems). And my bruiser is more fun. I can pull aggro from the healer, dps, or a 2nd mob from the MT and be congradulated and not condemed (and survive!).</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>So the worrying about dps doesnt just depend on the numbers there are other factors as well. I don't want to be #1 I just want to be wanted, and right now I don't feel the love like my healer and brawler do!</FONT></P>

[Kazimer]

<DIV>erm...paladins not able to hold aggro?  have you even played with one?  I've only been back to the game a week and I found out paladins are the ONLY ones able to hold aggro.  Amends!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and yes, I believe we have every right to complain about dps when we give up utility and armor for damage yet are not in the top tier of damage that we are supposed to be in.  It decreases the enjoyment of the game when we don't function as the purpose for our class.  I don't know about you, but it's very heartbreaking grouping with a ranger who can do more aoe damage than me, and his is also at range, and wears armor, and has more hp, and his CA is INSTANT, not a long 4 second cast that can be interrupted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so yes, I will gripe and complain because I pay for this game, and right now I'm not happy.  I've put hundreds of hours into my character and he doesn't perform the function of doing the most damage alongside wizards (who also fall behind rangers, conjs, necros, brigands, swashbucklers, assassins....just like us).</DIV>

[Exmortis_MT]

<P>You know, for the record every class board reads the same, 98 threads of whine whine whine whine whine whine, 2 threads of i like my class and enjoy playing.</P> <P>75% of whines are tripe.  25% are probably valid concerns but come off as childish whiney drival, that does no one any good.</P> <P>I play 3 classes, like them all, will no doubt start a rogue type soon for something new.</P> <P>Devs long ago abandon these forums due to lack of intelligent posts.  Pitty really, as a few threads I have read were fantasticially well written and brought forth valid concerns....I think it has been months since I have read one.</P> <P>As a SK main i get creamed on SK boards for being happy with my class, I am told "Dude it changes at  20, then 30 then 50, now 60."  well it never did change from 20 to 50, so my bet is 60 will be the same.  </P> <P>My 29 warlock is fun to play, he pushes as much DPS as I could ever want, solo's like crap, but i hate soloing.  I use my SK for those short time plays. </P> <P> I have not yet met a group that wasnt happy to add a warlock to their numbers, and that is really the key.  </P>

[Kazimer]

<P>thanks for your informative post. You added a lot of experience with your high level warlock....</P> <P>Here's your sign...</P>

[Roriondesexiest]

<P>Why does it matter what level he/she is, they are correct, most people who post are unhappy, about something, I have quite a few toons of various classes and read those boards as well, no one is happy. </P> <P>I apologize for knocking the Paladins, Amends is a very nice ability.</P> <P>And I guess for those of you that Raid I am sorry, I only play with people I know normally so I don't have to compete for raid spots, most of my normal group are utility classes, lol, we only have one ranger in my guild and that is one of my alts.  Our normal group is Berserker, Warlock, Shaman, Troubador, Dirge and Druid.  We do just fine.</P> <P>Omaplata</P> <p>Message Edited by dalessit on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[MilkToa]

<P>Why, a couple of reasons. First, because there are only a limited number of spots in raids and/or groups for DPS and they always want the most DPS possible. If you're perceived as 2nd tier DPS your less likely to be chosen to fill those DPS spots. Second, sorcerers where advertised as tier 1 DPS so anyone who plays a sorcerer expects to be tier 1 DPS. We've given up durability and utility for DPS so we should excel at dealing damage; predators make similar tradeoffs so they should be equivalent to sorcerers in DPS.</P> <P> </P>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exmortis_MT wrote:<BR> <P>You know, for the record every class board reads the same, 98 threads of whine whine whine whine whine whine, 2 threads of i like my class and enjoy playing.</P> <P>75% of whines are tripe.  25% are probably valid concerns but come off as childish whiney drival, that does no one any good.</P> <P>I play 3 classes, like them all, will no doubt start a rogue type soon for something new.</P> <P>Devs long ago abandon these forums due to lack of intelligent posts.  Pitty really, as a few threads I have read were fantasticially well written and brought forth valid concerns....I think it has been months since I have read one.</P> <P>As a SK main i get creamed on SK boards for being happy with my class, I am told "Dude it changes at  20, then 30 then 50, now 60."  well it never did change from 20 to 50, so my bet is 60 will be the same.  </P> <P>My 29 warlock is fun to play, he pushes as much DPS as I could ever want, solo's like crap, but i hate soloing.  I use my SK for those short time plays. </P> <P> I have not yet met a group that wasnt happy to add a warlock to their numbers, and that is really the key.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Man, it is like you have read my mind with your post.  I feel like I have to shovel so much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to find the couple of gem threads in here.  Believe me, the gems are HARD to find...<BR>

[Ickky]

<DIV> <P>You know, for the record every class board reads the same, 98 threads of whine whine whine whine whine whine, 2 threads of i like my class and enjoy playing.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I liked my Warlock, still do to some extent, but not as much as before CR.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Reasons for this, call it a whine if u like, is that I started playing a Conj for my very first toon, great fun till level 40 odd and then all our damage dissapeared up our own arseoles never to be seen again. So, I started a Warlock, why did I start a Warlock, because the class was different to a Wizard, to many of those about, so I chose a Warlock after reading up about what they could and could not do. I was completely satisfied with my Warlock and the way it played and the enjoyment I got out of this new toon. I put 6 months into my Warlock and I paid SoE for the privilege of playing my Warlock, which I enjoyed playing, and yes, I also enjoyed being king of the DPS and that is why I chose a Warlock. 6 Months down the line SoE decides to nerf this with the combat revamp, I am not happy about this at all, and, I am still not happy now. I did not start a Warlock to become second fiddle to a Conjurors pet or some leather clad dude Ranger waving a pointy stick around and poking the mobs with it. They took my utility/buffs away and gave me jolly jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in return, they took my spells and reduced my DPS due to longer cast times, they took a nuke away from me and gave me [Removed for Content] all in return, and you wonder why a lot of Warlocks have a moan on these boards. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>SoE are now WoWifying the game and making it so simple it is laughable and makes the game more like Donkey Kong every single update, totally pathetic. BTW I'm not a hardcore player, I'm fairly casual with the most time I spend online being the weekends, but this is diminishing by  the update, I'm starting to prefer Civ4, FEAR over EQ2, this was not the case at the start over a year ago.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I logged on this morning with my lev46 Conj to see the difference in pets etc and to see what SoE had done, well, I was pleasntly surprised and a little dismayed. This guy can now take down grps quicker than my Warlock could and with less risk, duhhhh, thanks SoE you have just made my lev 59 Warlock feel even sicker, and ppl wonder why we Warlocks moan.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>To the person that said his Warlock solos like crap, errr, learn to play your Warlock. But it was certainly easier to solo a Warlock before the CR, it would be easier now if they just decreased out recast timers, which are much to long as they stand.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Warlocks, moan/whinge/whine whatever you want to call it, but, they have a legitimate reason, they got changed into something they did'nt really want to be.</FONT></P></DIV>

[Deathspell]

We do OK, we do well in the regular groupings for casual quest-mobs. But that's about it really IMO. Unfortunately, groups seem to prefer 2 wizards instead of a combo, coz that's what you want, to bring down a highlevel mob as fast as possible. Not to mention the ridiculous poison-immunity from the T6 epic mobs. Lockjaw, Meathook, the nameds for manastone2, named scorpion in SS, de djinn in some raidinstance,... all immune to poison.. it all gives a good feeling, especially when you have to swap places with a Wizard or other DPS to clear the mob. Yay. This sounds a lot like a whine, hehe, but it's the truth. The only reason I still have my Warlock is because I like the toon and I have good friends. Oh, and that Amends, it has been nerfed, it transfers less hate towards the Paladin now and your chance of getting aggro increases. <div></div>

[Ickky]

<DIV>Man, it is like you have read my mind with your post.  I feel like I have to shovel so much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to find the couple of gem threads in here.  Believe me, the gems are HARD to find...<BR> <HR> <HR> </DIV>I guess the post u made in this thread is indeed a gem :smileywink:

[d24e]

I'm in the best raiding guild on Mistmoore (Guild: Static) and I go raiding every night with them. I hardly ever get to use AoE because it pulls aggro way too fast and I get killed in 1-3 hits max. So I use debuffs and single target dps all the time, which isn't the best in game but it helps me survive and raids go fine. (we got to 4th level of Poets Palace: Returned before dying to the last lvl 68 nameds with adds)I sitll love my class though.<div></div>

[dray]

<P>4th lvl of Poets palace? Were is that? Are you thinking of the group instanced zone? I have been in the raid zone and killed Moonchild, Frog guy and others..(Not the Black Sourcer queen though). Is there someplace I am missing. We have the ring event were you get Pixer Tixer(sp) and the Arch Lich and stuff..please enlighten me.</P> <P>BTW on single mobs we do stink compaired to most classes, on groups were are fine but you cannt do that on lots of raiding as the mezzers would shoot you and raid leader ream you a good one!</P> <P>Aerial</P> <P>60th lvl Unrest <Five Rings></P> <P> </P>

[rascheiw]

U are speaking about the court of al'afaz (raid instance of the shimmering citadel), the OP refers to poet palace return the raid instance of the poet palace. Baltazarr lv 60 warlock of saviours on butcherblock <div></div>

[Maelwy]

<P>OP - we are a high dps class - with less utility and group benefits than any other class - ALL we have is dps - and you wonder why we're focused on it?</P> <P>If you chose warlock and are happy being run of the mill, middle of the pack dps, you picked the wrong class - </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[UrkBloodA]

<P>when your profession isn't desired in a raid because the raidleader would rather fill out X slots of rangers/summoners don't come crying to the forums.</P> <P> </P>

[Brockaine2]

To the OP...a paladin is a warlocks ideal maintank. Get him to put amends on you and a) you can nuke harder and faster and b) he gets major agro from all the mobs...hurray <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TheSlashman]

<DIV>Like above posters stated, we don't have any worthy buffs compared to other classes, so DPS should be the highest in group.  For example, I have a decrease poison mit spell, but my guildie which is a necro has about the same type of decrease mit, but with that comes a +69 sta buff.  We also only have one utility, which is invis.  Where for example a nec has healing, rez, fd, and invis.  SOE really needs to do some checks and balance with classes.  I am not asking to nerf classes, but maybe give our class another useful utility like FD, so when we steal aggro (like i do plenty of times in a raid) we don't die and lose dps towards the mob.  </DIV>

[Roriondesexiest]

<P>Well from all the responses, it seems like raids are where this becomes most evident.  I guess I really don't do many raids.  </P> <P>It does seem like it would be nice if we got a utility spell or two.</P> <P>I still like the class, I have more fun playing my warlock than my ranger and everyone seems to love rangers.</P> <P>I guess also I pretty much always group with my guild so I never have any issues with people wanting something I am not.</P> <P>Omaplata</P> <p>Message Edited by dalessit on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 AM</span>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exmortis_MT wrote:<BR> <P>My 29 warlock is fun to play, he pushes as much DPS as I could ever want, solo's like crap, but i hate soloing.  I use my SK for those short time plays. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>LOL, if you think a warlock solos like crap you obviously havent played a Guardian since LU13 :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At just about every level my Warlock could solo groups of solo mobs 3-4 levels above her with no problems. An act that just got easier now that she has hit 50 and got Devastation. Trust me, wait till 40 when you get Boney Grasp...it makes a world of difference. While there are things I wish would be addressed (like our lack of a useful utility line, shorter cast times, etc) I for one love my warlock. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as grouping? Duoing with a 55 Pally we took down a lvl 53 named heroic and his buddies? How? Keep the Mob off me, watch my power and I can kill anything <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[sveppir]

Why is everyone so worried about DPS? 2 words~Diminutive Schwanz<div></div>

[Talonis]

<div></div>It IS sometimes hard to see the point of certain discussions relating to class issues. It has been said [and proven correct] time and time again that you can't please everybody. It's hard to do. Conversely, you probably aren't going to [Removed for Content]-off everybody as well. There are certainly folks playing warlocks that are happy as a clam, regardless of the DPS they put out or if there is a broken spell or two. That does not mean there aren't folks that strive for something more. That difference in DPS is now a big deal, and that broken spell is a horrible nerf.Niether player is wrong.That said - I'll admit I am one of those players that want sorcerers improved in the DPS dept. The post where MG laid out the DPS tiers was where "he stepped in it". The role of our class was unceremoniously [and for most, reluctantly] changed with LU13. Six months later, the tiers are not performing as advertised for all classes. The gap is the largest for players in the higher levels. We have all seen the testimonials of mid 20's to 30's warlocks that are awed by the power of their warlocks. It is possible for the tiers to be correct for certain level ranges, and not for others.This is the case for T6 Warlocks [and Wizards]. The tiers are not distributed properly. We are T2 or T3 in most cases. Not all, but most. If this was the intention, a simple Dev response would have said so long ago. When the masses stand up and bring an issue like this to light with countless threads, the lack of immediate Dev response usually means they know there is a problem and are working to fix it [see - "Broodlings"] We hope so, anyway.I'm quite sure the Devs read most of the "whining" posts, looking for some solid information with facts and examples. Unfortunately, a lot of threads lack this useful information. So yeah, the 'gems' are sometimes hard to find. "OMG, my class sux! Fix me!"........dang, another beryllium cluster.....If there is anyone who has not read it, there is an excellent thread [a true Pearl] in the Combat Discussion area by Renaven. He has laid out the facts and provided the evidence. He has also provided some excellent ideas to make improvements to the sorcerers.Check it out here:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=90215" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=90215</a>Asking for spells to be fixed is pretty self-explainatory. DPS is a little different. If you read the thread, you'll see the problem at the core of this issue is related to raid situations. In many T6 raid encounters, burning down the main mob is the key to sucess. Being able to burn it down fast may prevent the raid-wiping AE or mem-wipe. If your class is not pulling it's weight, you may find your spot given to someone that can provide the DPS you cannot.This issue is not an easy fix, but it is possible to accomplish. There are several variables that need to be considered. When the conceptual solution is reached, the task of coding it and implementing it doesn't happen overnight. Until the fix is in and live, there will continue to be unhappy folks. If it doesn't get fixed......expect the amount of threads to only increase.So if you are happy with your warlock, I say that is awesome. Those that aren't will continue to post. Some will be 'gems', but most will be the proverbial 'beryllium cluster'.<div></div>

[Tomanak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GLScooby wrote:<div></div>So if you are happy with your warlock, I say that is awesome. Those that aren't will continue to post. Some will be 'gems', but most will be the proverbial 'beryllium cluster'.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I do admit that as of yet I dont raid and I do understand the problems Warlocks have raiding. Part of it is the fact that my warlock was only in her early 20's prior to LU13 so I didnt partake in the warlocks heydey. Part of it is that my other toon was/is a Guardian and compared to him, she is a blast to play.</p><p>To the OP. Why do we want more DPS? Simple, what else do we have to offer? Our current utilty line is a waste of pixels so thats not an option and our group buffs are questionable. We are supposed to be (along with Wizards) Tier1 DPS. With so many other classes out damaging us, this is simply not the case. We want what was promised to us..massive amounts of damage to offset the fact that we have nothing else.  </p>

[Roriondesexiest]

<div></div>My point is I do tons of DPS.  I don't Raid so I can't speak to that.  I am level 43 right now and every group I get in ooh's and aah's when I start using my AOE'sGranted sorry we can't start off using our best attacks,  I still start off slow and have no problem doing massive amounts of damage to the group without drawing aggro from the tank. I do this in my guild groups and the few times I get in a pickup group and have never heard any complaint from anyone about the amount of damage I am doing, quite the opposite actually.I have been here since just about day 1 and took a bit of a break and just recently came back and I always hear the same kind of whining.  The Warlock board isn't the only place, though.  Go look at just about every board here and all you hear is whining about how no one wants me for groups, I don't do enough raid damage, I don't heal as well as this class....  Give me a break.  I have a lot of RL friends who play different classes and they hear the same things in their boards.I do agree we could use a bit more utility but I think our DPS is just fine (**Not counting Raids**)Omaplata<div></div><p>Message Edited by dalessit on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:39 AM</span></p>

[Senen74]

<div>For the 1000th time and its documented all over this forum no warlock is upset with our grp/solo dps.  Its raids and how other classes and ours stack in that grand scheme. </div>

[Roriondesexiest]

<span><blockquote><hr>Senen74 wrote:<div>For the 1000th time and its documented all over this forum no warlock is upset with our grp/solo dps.  Its raids and how other classes and ours stack in that grand scheme. </div><hr></blockquote>Not true, everyone seems to say groups/raids.I only came back to this post because a few people just posted to it..Omaplata</span><div></div>

[VeraIkonica]

I would like to offer my in depth knowlege about the warlock abilities as well. <font color="#66ff00"> I play a lvl 2 Walock on test currently</font> and I cant understand what you other warlocks are complaining about(literally).  <font color="#ffff33">I personally think us warlocks are overpowered I can kill most yellow mobs on the isle with one shot</font>.  My biggest<font color="#ffff00"> problem is our power use issues one spell uses almost my entire blue bar.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font>psst this was a joke btw<div></div>

[Dolamaine]

<div>Eh ... You know it sucks and its not that bad all at the same time. I think we are the most fun class to lvl with for sure. Pally + troub + healer + 3 warlocks is really devestating. Raids ... it's not so much fun just cause we have more solo target fights. That said, since they finally put in AA's, I'm happier about the class. I love grinding because abilities always made a much bigger difference than loot imho. I have to admit, I was getting really bored with the class until we started putting a troub in our mage group. Now with serenade, we can really open it up (41% hate deagro) and with the spell proc, the numbers look like the old days.</div>

[Maelwy]

again, i'll say it again.  all we bring to the table is dps.therefore, when our dps is inadvertantly nerfed due to broken spells (such as DI) we're gonna complain.When our dps is intentionally nerfed we're gonna complain.and when our minimal utility and function is nerfed (reduction of stun timers, nerfing of stuns on all epics, ineffectiveness of seal line of buffs) we're gonna complain.We've got dps to offer. mediocre single target, and spectacular aoe dps. we're totally worthless on many raid mobs, due to incredible resist levels to poison/disease spells - (yes, we can use our few ice and fire spells, or word of force, but of those, only 1 of them is a true t6 spell. and its on a long timer)so as it sits due to raid mob resists, we're needed only situationally. but on those encounters that are aoe and not poison/disease immune, we're quite effective. But we can be better. and we have been. Once they fix us again, we will once again.but untill then, we're gonna be worried about our dps. because right now, we're totally replaceable.I don't want to be replaceable. I want to be crucial to the success of a raid - and right now, thats not the case.