Wiz/Warlock - Are we still tier 1 damage dealers in Raids ?

[Dreadwalk]

Now that the revamp has settled in , would be interested to hear players feedback on the state of the warlock (and wizard) in terms of end game damage.  (raids mostly) Seems to me with power regen skills nerfed seems Wiz and Warlocks get a raw deal in end game raids.  And if so any constructive ideas on how this could be addressed. <div></div>

[Admh]

nope, it's predators>Summoners>sorcs :smileyindifferent:

[Ziffna]

Have to agree admhel, reasons i can see for this is that all scout classes have a skill that can be cast frequently or is a concentration buff that reduces or transfers their hate to another and in the case of summoners a fairly large protion of the hate they gain is directed at the pet from the pets damage.  Sorcerers have no ablity to reduce or redirect their hate and thus achieving a fraction of the damage these other classes generate we have far more hate and no way to get rid of it save getting beat on which with epic encounters simply means dieing.

[Akyno001]

<P>Test Update 18</P> <P>- Summoned pets now have consistent and distinct appearances at each spell level. For example, the level 52 Conjurer ability Tellurian Myrmidon is the only spell that will summon a rock elemental pet; the Necromancer ability Rotting Thrall is the only spell that will summon the previously overused zombie. Other levels will summon different creature types.<BR>- Summoned pets in a given spell line have a distinct look at each quality tier. For example, the Necromancer's Diseased Servant spell summons a skeleton warrior. As the spell is increased in quality tier (Apprentice I, Adept I, etc.), the skeleton looks more impressive.<BR>- Temporary pets also have new appearances. For example, the Shadowknight's Tainted Sacrament line will change in appearance with upgrades.<BR>- Persistent summoned pets start out with a base number of abilities. An additional ability is granted to the pet at each spell level upgrade. Pet spells in the level 52 to 60 spell range now have an additional ability that they did not have before.<BR>- Temporary Pets (e.g. Conjurer's Roaring Flames and Necromancer's Ghastly Stench) will now cast their close-range AoE spell more often.<BR>- Pets will no longer inherit abilities based on their creature type.<BR>- Temporary Pets now display their owner's name.<BR>- Fighter and Scout pets now use their combat arts more often.<BR>- Fighter pets now taunt more often, and their taunts have a lower chance of being resisted. Their taunt effectiveness should now scale properly with level.<BR>- Some Conjurer Fighter pets now have interrupt/knock-down effects, while some Necromancer Fighter pets now have root/stifle effects.<BR>- Scout pets had their damage adjusted based on the reuse timer of the combat art. Slower combat arts now do increased damage, while faster combat arts now do less damage. Overall, Scout pets should deal about the same amount of damage they did before.<BR>- Mage pets focus more on AoE spells than they used to. These spells have generally been made more effective.<BR>- Mage pets are much more resistant to spell damage than they were before, and the size of their power pool has been increased. Casting times on their spells were generally decreased, and their single-target spells will land more often than they did before.<BR>- The Illusionist pet spell list now also includes Stunning Array, Lock Mind, and a direct damage/mez spell. They no longer try to cast DoT spells on their target.<BR>- Summoned pets now have the same base run speed as their owners.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>nice, look at this.. mage pets will have more AOE procs and made more effective and all. Looks like we are going even more down with our DPS compared to summoners.</P> <P>sigh, looks like I have choosed the wrong class for DPS... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], I should have taken the necro</P><p>Message Edited by Akyno001 on <span class=date_text>12-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Akyno001 wrote:<div></div> <div></div>  <p>nice, look at this.. mage pets will have more AOE procs and made more effective and all. Looks like we are going even more down with our DPS compared to summoners.</p><hr></blockquote>I actually think that's bad for them though that depends on if it's pb or encounter ae. Pbae would make them unusable in a lot of situations. Anyway.. i dont think i can do more damage in raids than now, though that's mostly because sorcerers have no way to deaggro like scouts. We'll get a new spell, but how much that's going to help remains to be seen.</span><div></div>

[Dajuuk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanith_ wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Akyno001 wrote:<BR>   <P>nice, look at this.. mage pets will have more AOE procs and made more effective and all. Looks like we are going even more down with our DPS compared to summoners.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I actually think that's bad for them though that depends on if it's pb or encounter ae. Pbae would make them unusable in a lot of situations.<BR><BR>Anyway.. i dont think i can do more damage in raids than now, though that's mostly because sorcerers have no way to deaggro like scouts. We'll get a new spell, but how much that's going to help remains to be seen.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't see anything that said AOE procs were added, just that the existing AOE procs are going to happen more frequently.<BR>

[maddawg138]

<P>eh im usually around the top DPS on raids 600-1k single and easily 2k-15k on multiple targets</P> <P> </P> <P>granted a ranger full fabled out and mostly masters/adept 3's can out DPS me on single targets but on multiple targets i can easily out DPS them. Wizards i dont know as for the longest time our wizard sucked [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. now we got a new one...havent had a chance to parse him yet <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>summoners are same story as the ranger. depends on the fight.</P>

[Ziffna]

Well Xede i'll bite i'm currious how your managing to be top on dps in your raids because from my experience using my collection of adept 3's and master spells in raids 600 dps 5 mins into the raid usually means that i'm taking over for the tank as the raid tank this while varrious rangers/summoners and even some fighters are currently higher up on the dps tree then I.  Havent been able to do enough farming to put a MT for our guild in full fabled armor with master 1 taunts but our usual tank for our raids is wearing and using legendary or better skills and taunts.  At the same time i'm usually in a group with both a pally and a troubador both tryign to reduce hate with legendary hate reducing spells.  That being said i here is a typical example of what happens about the time i hit 600 dps in raids first thing that happens is that the non main MT pally that is in the group with me pulls agro and gets killed  which is imeadatly followed by the mobs turning on me killing me.  600 dps is the magic number for me getting killed along with anyone that is trying to reduce my agro.  Assuming that i could actually be kept alive doing 2K+ with aoes i would effectivly have moved from dps into the main tank role.  Just looking for some idea of how to keep up with a fraction of the dps that other classes are able to maintain while not getting agro 2 weeks ago doing a run on darathar for some prismatic updates i pulled agro having the 12th highest dps in the raid there were guardains in offencive stance doing more damage then i was doing yet i still managed to pull agro doesn't make sence to me.

[Nerga]

<P>On regular groups we get pwned by scouts and summoners unless really large groups.</P> <P>On epic grouped mobs WITH the right group setup as in Troubador and Paladin in group we can probably out DPS anyone.</P> <P>Unforunetly my new guild got only one bard...and its a dirge ..who obviously is in MT group....</P> <P> </P> <P>I can lay some serious DPS ,especialy now that im almost fully m1 cause of the new drop rate.I just cant stay alive to sustain it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I do belive that with good agro transfer I can probably hold my own on any situation including single target.The fact we use DOT is pretty good IMO and on long single target fights those DOTS really add up.</P>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadwalker wrote:<BR>Now that the revamp has settled in , would be interested to hear players feedback on the state of the warlock (and wizard) in terms of end game damage.  (raids mostly)<BR><BR>Seems to me with power regen skills nerfed seems Wiz and Warlocks get a raw deal in end game raids.  And if so any constructive ideas on how this could be addressed.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Warlocks are tier 1 on AOE but not single target. Wizards are never tier 1

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Depend on duration of fight ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If fight last longer then 3-4 min then DPS goes like this</DIV> <DIV>Conjurer-Necro-Ranger-Paladin-Zerker .... rest....</DIV> <DIV>If fight last less then 2 min then </DIV> <DIV>Warlock-Conjurer ... then rest</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorcs cannt sustein DPS because of massive nerf that happend with thier power effiicency of spells and canibalization </DIV> <DIV>Warlock use to be able convert every 20s ~500HP into 400PW and have DPM 1:40 .... nowdays every 20s warlock can covert 450HP for 233PW (266 if M1) and DPM of M1-M2 spells do not exceed 1:15... Toss here most spells cost 330+ power to cast</DIV>

[maddawg138]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ziffnabb wrote:<BR>Well Xede i'll bite i'm currious how your managing to be top on dps in your raids because from my experience using my collection of adept 3's and master spells in raids 600 dps 5 mins into the raid usually means that i'm taking over for the tank as the raid tank this while varrious rangers/summoners and even some fighters are currently higher up on the dps tree then I.  Havent been able to do enough farming to put a MT for our guild in full fabled armor with master 1 taunts but our usual tank for our raids is wearing and using legendary or better skills and taunts.  At the same time i'm usually in a group with both a pally and a troubador both tryign to reduce hate with legendary hate reducing spells.  That being said i here is a typical example of what happens about the time i hit 600 dps in raids first thing that happens is that the non main MT pally that is in the group with me pulls agro and gets killed  which is imeadatly followed by the mobs turning on me killing me.  600 dps is the magic number for me getting killed along with anyone that is trying to reduce my agro.  Assuming that i could actually be kept alive doing 2K+ with aoes i would effectivly have moved from dps into the main tank role.  Just looking for some idea of how to keep up with a fraction of the dps that other classes are able to maintain while not getting agro 2 weeks ago doing a run on darathar for some prismatic updates i pulled agro having the 12th highest dps in the raid there were guardains in offencive stance doing more damage then i was doing yet i still managed to pull agro doesn't make sence to me. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>im not reading all of that clutter.....ill put it simple, troubador =)

[Ziffna]

Sorry about the um cluttered post. But i haven't had any luck with both a pally with amends on me and a troubador in the group about the time that i get over 600 dps the pally pulls agro gets killed before the healers can react at which point the raid mob turns to me and i see myself eating dirt.

[Oakbr]

<div></div><i>Depend on duration of fight ....</i> Also depends very much on the target.   In Spirts of the Lost, for example, the Punisher mobs are poison resistant.  Not much we can do there but cheer on the team during that fight....AE is already banned, because we have mezzers working.  My guild took down K'dal last week--big ugly nightblood mob in Maiden's Gulch.  He resists all sorts of things, to the point that our wizards/conjurers/predators were doing very little damage.  I was second on the damage tree, but--and this is painful to admit--I lost to the freakin <b>Main Tank</b>.  Oh, the shame.  Still, my little 52 Warlock blew away all the higher lever wizards/summoners.  Next closest to me was a bard.  On most raids, if something goes wrong and we wipe, I die immediately after the tank(s).  Like clockwork, MT down, MA down, Kahbueme down.  I'm the only raiding Warlock in my guild, but I must be doing something damage wise to die immediately after the tanks, even when we've got the Level 60 Wizzies lobbing Ice Comet and such....<p>Message Edited by Oakbrow on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:30 PM</span>

[Tanatus]

Resist a lot less important because of nature of nox damage - its next to impossible to mitingate with proper debuffing unless mob flagged as poison immune you should be able pierce any resistance

[Mode]

<P>For the most part with a Pally as MT and his amends buff on me I out dps everyone with the exception of a swashbuckler and one Necro. Now we have 3 raiding necros in our guild and only one of them consistantly beats be in dps. The way he is beating is with Dumbfire pets take away those pets and he does not beat me. This lead me to doing some exploring with our dark broodlings... The next time your fighting take the time to get the broodlings to proc early in the fight and as soon as you do get Netherus Realm up. Then lay down the spells that proc Netherus... after Live update 18 you will see a dps increase as are disease spells will also proc Netherus so just stick the Necro in the group with you and laugh as you pass them in dps....</P> <P>The other thing is to get MASTERS.... you may think 100 damage for 10pp is not worth it, if you think this way then you should not be upset when you get passed in DPS on raids...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well let it put in simplest way </DIV> <DIV>Warlock will be on top of DPS ladder for single target and AoE as long as</DIV> <DIV>a) He have Paladin+Troubadur in group</DIV> <DIV>b) Fight not exceed 2.5min for AOE encounter and 3.5min for single target encounter</DIV>

[pharacyde]

I love the way you guys make such easy models of te reality. As long as the warlock is the only AoE class ... I guess you are right. As soon as I have another warlock in the raid, or a necromance, illu, ... any other AoE class. Well forget it. The main damage you can do comes from the main mob, and even if there are alot of mobs you can burn out with your AE spells, the other classes do it as well. So you wont get much dps from that ... I think you should look at the tier tables as follow. If you compare any class for AE damage to a warlock, the warlock should be the better dps. It doesn't mean, that when you are fighting an AE encouter on a raid that they will be the best dps in the raid.  Same goes for wizards in single target. Therefore the good mix between good AE and DD spells is important for constant good dps. If you look at it that way, you can say we are Tier one dps in the pure sence of the word, if you just look at the spells we have.  As soon  as we start to mix with other  classes they  will  influence that  statement  in a positive or negative way. As soon as you add another warlock, we will have to share the damage we do with them. So it will influence our total dps also. Probably in a bad way since the other encounter is also an AE expert. If we add a wizard to a warlock, this might increase the dps of the warlock, since the main mob will die faster, w/o taking away too much of the AE damage of the warlock. Which will give us better dps. <div></div>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Bud imf everything right opposite the more DPS classes you have on raid the HIGHER your personal DPS will be - because of DURATION of fights....</DIV> <DIV>Get grasp ppl - NO MANA = NO DAMAGE</DIV>

[TheBladesCaress]

Make friends with the right classes and you wont run out of power.  I can easily go 8-10 mins without going oop, with Necro hearts, Conj essence stones, clarity potions.  That said, we are not tier 1 damage any more, even when powered that long.  Necros and Conjurers outdamage us, and they have utility as well.<div></div>

[Maelwy]

<DIV>situationally, we are out dps'd by both summoner classes, both swash/brig, rangers (never yet been beat by an assassin), and even zerkers - in raid situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vazgok, Lockjaw, various mobs in Gates, it's not even a question.  we will NOT be anywhere near top dps using  a limited portion of our skills - our disease and ice lines are not strong enough to put us in to dps without the punch we get from our poison lines.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've put my warlock on the back burner, pulling him out for raids only, while i've spent my time working up a bruiser.  This will allow me to be a viable dps/off tank on raids where poison resists are a problem.</DIV>

[Oakbr]

<i>I've put my warlock on the back burner, pulling him out for raids only, while i've spent my time working up a bruiser.  This will allow me to be a viable dps/off tank on raids where poison resists are a problem.</i> I do pretty much the same.  The Warlock now stays home for Spirits of the Lost, and will skip the Lockjaw raid as well, while I run my Pally instead.  When the poison isn't a viable option, Warlocks just don't bring much to the table.  At least the Pally can swap weapon types to hit most mobs with melee.  Of course, if we run into a poison immune mob that also requires a ranged fight, I guess I'll be taking the night off....

[Eirgo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Modean wrote:<BR> <P>For the most part with a Pally as MT and his amends buff on me I out dps everyone with the exception of a swashbuckler and one Necro. Now we have 3 raiding necros in our guild and only one of them consistantly beats be in dps. The way he is beating is with Dumbfire pets take away those pets and he does not beat me. This lead me to doing some exploring with our dark broodlings... The next time your fighting take the time to get the broodlings to proc early in the fight and as soon as you do get Netherus Realm up. Then lay down the spells that proc Netherus... after Live update 18 you will see a dps increase as are disease spells will also proc Netherus so just stick the Necro in the group with you and laugh as you pass them in dps....</P> <P>The other thing is to get MASTERS.... you may think 100 damage for 10pp is not worth it, if you think this way then you should not be upset when you get passed in DPS on raids...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hhehehe Im onto you now Modean!!! You'll never beat me NEVER!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for the off topic post guys.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT - To put in my 2 cents on the topic at hand.  Averaging all the raids I have parsed lately it would seem that the top dpsers are always the Warlock/Swashy/Necro (we dont have a 60 assassin or ranger yet) and the wizards always seem to hover around 450-500dps (lower than the zerker and pally at times).</DIV><p>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <span class=date_text>12-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 PM</span>

[Burnout]

<P>ranger outdmg's casters in every raid, no regard how long it takes. and every fight against a raidmob currently is a lost fight if takes too long. btw - tanatus - you know rangers don't need mana for aome skills? i bet...</P>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Burnout wrote:<BR> <P>ranger outdmg's casters in every raid, no regard how long it takes. and every fight against a raidmob currently is a lost fight if takes too long. btw - tanatus - you know rangers don't need mana for aome skills? i bet...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, predators and rogues currently kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but the change in procs (to main hand only) will definitely lower their DPS.</P> <P> </P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Ya I know that ranger not use any mana for SoA and that solid 500-700DPS for 30s... but do not foget if fight last less then 30s noone can come even close to warlock in 22s we do 9.1-16.4K damage per mob - thats is 413-745DPS per mob ... with 5 mob encounter is translates into 2-3.5KDPS .... </DIV>

[MrMattr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>deleted</BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by MrMattrus on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 PM</span>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ya I know that ranger not use any mana for SoA and that solid 500-700DPS for 30s... but do not foget if fight last less then 30s noone can come even close to warlock in 22s we do 9.1-16.4K damage per mob - thats is 413-745DPS per mob ... with 5 mob encounter is translates into 2-3.5KDPS .... </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sigh...... Atleast warlocks can be the tier 1 dps in very specific cases ( short AOE fights). Wizards will never be tier 1 dps no matter what. </P> <P>It is flat out impossible for a wizard to break 800 dps ( a very low number for any summoner/predator). </P> <P>If ice comet had a 0 sec recast time that would enable wizards to put out exactly 800 dps ( but sadly this isnt the case).</P> <P>The only time wizards ever break 800 is on AOE and even then its only about 900. </P> <P>Warlocks should be the best AOE dps in the game no matter how long the fight takes (not summoners)</P> <P>Wizards should be the best single target dps in the game no matter how long it takes (not predators)</P>

[DearthofWeal]

Just wanted to throw in a quick "LOL" to the people rolling bruisers to raid with..  Bruisers are easy to lvl.. <div></div>

[Sevm]

<P>I raid in the top raiding guild on my server -and one of the best on any server.  Our ranger is the highest dmg person on the server - his raid DPS is ridiculous.  No sorcerer even goes into the DPS group on our raids.  Why?  because consistently we are never the top 6 DPS and dont need the hate-reducer buffs and power regen of the Top Tier DPS.</P> <P>I have a couple moments (when we see a mob with more than 5 enemies) and im top DPS but the fight is short anyways and it was never a threat and my DPS made the fight 20 seconds shorter tops.  </P> <P>Well at least we have all of those great group utilies like evac, transport, revive, heal, fast mana regen, decent pets...wait....</P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well I use my warlock only for raids that involve massive cleanage of yard trash mob that comes in huge packs... Best thing in such fight I usually MT for guild lol and the top thing I need only 1 healers to stay ground ... defiler</DIV>

[Dudd]

<DIV>Try being a monk in raids...My warlock is only lvl 33 so I couldnt tell ya how its gonna be raiding with it...but my monk, no hate transfers, and all light armor, we go down just as fast as a caster in a raid.  And, with my 100% haste self buffed, or if Im grouped with a bard, I dont even have to use special attacks to take aggro from our tank who has all master taunts.  So maybe sorcs and monks need hate transfer, unless they make it so monks can take a hit like a fighter and not like a scout.</DIV>