Advice for Raids?

[agress]

Wondering if someone could offer some advice: I'm a level 50 warlock, and all of my nukes (AE/single target) are Adept III.  Soloing, I can even get yellow con heroic groups as long as they dont have any up arrows.  If they have up arrows, I can maybe pull off a white con if they dont break Bony Grasp.  With stuff like Devastation etc, they are very doable.   In group situations, its the same deal, I can offer wonderous DPS to groups of mobs. However, in Raid situations, I find myself doing single target DD, where I am definitely less effective.  While with normal heroic encounters, I can afford to get agro and let the tank peel it off; in a raid, I'm dead before he gets the chance to do anything.  And the sad thing is, this was against level 34 grey mobs (Cauldron Hollow).  I can't imagine if it were against something not grey.  Our guild is just getting into this arena of play (raiding) but we're trying to find more x2 zones since we generally can't get 24 people on at once.  Anyways, thats another story. So, what do you guys do in a raid? Do you ever use devastation?  Nil Absolution?  I'm simply an agro magnet and doesn't matter if i wait 60 seconds or not to AE nuke I'll defintely get agro if I try to land more than one.  I see the tank doing his group taunt at least 2-3 times before I nuke and it doesn't seem to help.  These spells just generate a ton of hate and I die instantly.  I don't mind dying (debt/repair) but I have so little power after a rez that I'm worthless for the rest of the fight, even with manastone and a Master II shift. agressiv Unrest Server <div></div>

[vorek]

<DIV>Getting properly buffed makes all the difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Amends from Pally and the Bard aggro-reducer.....HUGE difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than that, it is just learning when to unload based on repitition</DIV>

[betterji]

<P>in raids the tank is prolly focused on main mob but still using aoe taunts so you dont want to go all out with your aoe's no tank can hold mobs from a warlock burning it all.  between your aoe nukes just throw in single target ones on the main mobs helps alot for me</P> <P> </P>

[maddawg138]

<DIV>one thing is the named mob is usually the only one that cannot be stunned/stifled etc....so if your chanters dont mez(which is the case 98% of the time) i tend to use Dark Nebula alot as it can stun the adds that come with the named and keep them from hitting the tank as much as well making it easier on the healers to do less healing for a short amount of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and our DPS isnt all that bad single target. on many raids, which are mainly single target, i can get 600-1k dps on single target and 2k+ on mult targets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also learn your tank and how his playstyle is that way you know how to manage your aggro and know when to back off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just like a couple posts back, the right group make up helps alot. If you have a troubador make sure you put all your people that tend to take aggro alot in his group as well as gettin hate buffs and right group makeup on the MT as well so he can hold the aggro. It's all about working as a team and knowing what other classes can and cannot do in situations.</DIV>

[Ziffna]

<DIV>Man i would love to do that kinda dps on a raid as it stands i even come close to 500 i'm eating dirt.</DIV>

[Hennyo]

Well one very simple and effecitive solution for aggro in raids is to use a paladin as the MT and stick a dirge and a coercer in there or even yes a warlock in the MT group. Ive been stuck in MT group a number of times on larger aoe fights just because theres nothing that can give anywhere near that much aggro control on fights like that. Oh and yeah, my single target dps is about 600 to 1k single target and aoe can be over 2k, tho with poison immune mobs about 300 to 400 dps and double immunes i can do just over 100 dps. (word of force and tharwt FTW) <div></div>

[maddawg138]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hennyo wrote:<BR>Well one very simple and effecitive solution for aggro in raids is to use a paladin as the MT and stick a dirge and a coercer in there or even yes a warlock in the MT group. Ive been stuck in MT group a number of times on larger aoe fights just because theres nothing that can give anywhere near that much aggro control on fights like that. Oh and yeah, my single target dps is about 600 to 1k single target and aoe can be over 2k, tho with poison immune mobs about 300 to 400 dps and double immunes i can do just over 100 dps. (word of force and tharwt FTW)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What are you talking about putting a warlock in MT group? obviously you are either 1)[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] or 2)insane</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>troubadors have a great deaggro song that reduces hate for all classes except fighters and also have a spell proc that adds even more DPS for casters.</DIV> <DIV>the thing about a dirge or coercer in a MT group is a good idea....hell put both in there just for even better aggro on the MT</DIV><p>Message Edited by maddawg138 on <span class=date_text>12-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:26 AM</span>

[Hennyo]

<div></div>warlock in the MT group for easy or trash mobs only, good example - 1 floor poets on the failed raider epics or silent city epic zone is a good place to do this as well it just tends to be a simple and effienct way to handle the easier stuff when everyone just wants to burn the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] down cause theres no challenge to it, but for any named with diffuculty you dont put a warlock in the mt group. Its just used for speed and ease on the trash stuff. BTW we use the dirge coercer thing in the MT group all the time on harder fights unless the mob is just so hard that we have to put another defensive class in the MT group tho the dirge and coercer combo tends to not be as effeint on the much larger aoe encounters. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Hennyo on <span class=date_text>12-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 AM</span>

[Crono1321]

Warlock in MT group.......no Put a troubador in the mage group and dirge in the MT group...-aggro for you +aggro for tanky! <div></div>

[TheBladesCaress]

I can think of only one reason to put a Warlock in MT group.... if the MT is a Paladin and you are fighting groups. Warlocks should never be in MT group on raids.  We offer nothing to the MT. <div></div>

[Gertack_v2]

Biggest problem on raids is getting a single AE spell cast before a Conjuror takes down an entire epic x4 pack of gnolls in Silent City with Elemental Vestment. <div></div>

[hylozoist]

<P>I never get amends, because warlocks don't belong in a tank group, and we don't have many active paladins at the moment.  I don't get troubadours in my group either, or rarely, since they are also used for other groups.  And, face it, mage buffs are the lease useful of class buffs except for the minor resist tweak.</P> <P>Anyway, to the question - what do I do on raids to avoid aggro.  Mind you I am always high on the aggro list - usually the 2nd or 3rd - but I am careful not to pass it.  This is how it goes:</P> <P>1. Patience.  Debuff first, dots perhaps, power conversions and feeding when necessary and no nukes at the beginning.  Heck, I'll even throw out a Shadowed Pillaging sometimes (it doesn't seem to generate much aggro).  You have to wait until the tank has enough aggro, it's no use dying early and its even worse dying early and wiping the raid by ruining the position of an AE'ing mob.  Often, waits are up to a minute or longer before any chain casting - but for a fight that is 10 minutes, you need to be alive for the long run.</P> <P>2.  Netheros and Dark Broodlings.  I tend to cast Netheros early and often because it accrues its own hate.  Further its attack may spawn dark broodlings when I cast dark infestation, and as long as the location is safe for PBAE, these broodlings are excellent DPS that also accrue their own hate.  Thus lots of damage, little hate (only the amount from the Dark Infestation dot and a very minor amount for casting Netheros at all).  </P> <P>3.  Hearing MT call out stuns.  Interrupt casting (jump/move) for safety when this occurs.</P> <P>4.  Few big nukes.  Unless the tank is using a hate generator or transfer and calls out burn, the big nukes all stay unused.  I spawn dark broodlings with netheros and vulian intrusion.  The mob only gets nuked when it's very low.  Instead, dots are preferable as a tank will generally match your aggro generation.  Once someone else gains aggro, the aggro list may get "rearranged."  Usually a certain amount of hate over the MT is allowed until you break the barrier, at which point the mob rearranges the hate list according to the actual hate.  This could lead your MT to have major problems because other dps may have also been above the MT but not above the rearrange point.. just don't overdo it.</P> <P>Of course all this changes drastically with a paladin or guardian in your group for hate transfer or reduction.  As stated this is rarely the case and rightly is the case given our buff situation.  The alternative is to be conservative and spend power wisely as expressed above.  </P> <P>In all honesty, the dps classes rarely make or break the raid.  More likely to break the raid, even, if they overdoit.  We get no practical hate reducers (aside from the procs off getting hit, or tarton's wheel, which is simply not enough).   As a result, we must simply sit on our feet and do the best we can with debuffs and power management.  </P>

[maddawg138]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hylozoist wrote:<BR> <P>I never get amends, because warlocks don't belong in a tank group, and we don't have many active paladins at the moment.  I don't get troubadours in my group either, or rarely, since they are also used for other groups.  And, face it, mage buffs are the lease useful of class buffs except for the minor resist tweak.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>why the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would you not be put in a troubs group? its great to put us in the DPS group with a ranger, troub, conjuror and a couple other scouts as our procs are a great scout proc and the deaggro from the troub along with their spell procs will make great DPS for yourself yet still not get aggro. Also why would a paladin be put in another group besides MT group or an offtank group? They are great tanks as well as a secondary tank to give the MT more mitigation and such.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just hearing how some of these guilds set up their groups amazes me and i wonder how the hell they can defeat things before healers go OOP with such [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] backward DPS groups.</DIV>

[Crono1321]

<span><blockquote><hr>maddawg138 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> hylozoist wrote: <p>I never get amends, because warlocks don't belong in a tank group, and we don't have many active paladins at the moment.  I don't get troubadours in my group either, or rarely, since they are also used for other groups.  And, face it, mage buffs are the lease useful of class buffs except for the minor resist tweak.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>why the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would you not be put in a troubs group? its great to put us in the DPS group with a ranger, troub, conjuror and a couple other scouts as our procs are a great scout proc and the deaggro from the troub along with their spell procs will make great DPS for yourself yet still not get aggro. Also why would a paladin be put in another group besides MT group or an offtank group? They are great tanks as well as a secondary tank to give the MT more mitigation and such.</div> <div> </div> <div>Just hearing how some of these guilds set up their groups amazes me and i wonder how the hell they can defeat things before healers go OOP with such [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] backward DPS groups.</div><hr></blockquote>I agree...I guess that's why you've gotten your peacock quest done...</span><div></div>

[hylozoist]

<DIV>This is a little offtopic, but just a reply as to why someone may or may not be in the troub group - some guilds may have many wizards and very few troubs.  Some troubs may be subpar.  Some servers may not have many troubs to recruit.  Sometimes, no troub is on the raid.  You adjust.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no clue where your paladin rant came out of.. I was merely commenting that I don't have amends and I don't get aggro.  I did not advise anything as to whether I should get amends or where the paladin should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  I used to be a paladin.</DIV>

[TizZle]

<DIV>Only thing we offer to a MT is Nilihism(we do have melee damage proc but not worth being in MT group for that) which can be cast on anyone on the raid. We usually assist the MA (main assist). We need to be grouped with other casters(we have a power buff and ebon thought), a healer(group heal for epic aoe's if u get too close or didnt joust quick enough), and a bard/chanter(power regen).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your MA / MT should be smart enough to tell you when to go all out in a raid depending on the strat. for each encounter.</DIV>

[maddawg138]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hylozoist wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is a little offtopic, but just a reply as to why someone may or may not be in the troub group - some guilds may have many wizards and very few troubs.  Some troubs may be subpar.  Some servers may not have many troubs to recruit.  Sometimes, no troub is on the raid.  You adjust.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no clue where your paladin rant came out of.. I was merely commenting that I don't have amends and I don't get aggro.  I did not advise anything as to whether I should get amends or where the paladin should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  I used to be a paladin.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>we have 2 wizzies and 1 troub along with my self thats the only warlock in guild.....and our procs we give to scouts also proc the spell proc troubs have so giving it to any scout like a ranger would boost dps a ton.</P> <P>hell our DPS group mainly consists of 1 conj, myself, a troub and 3 other scouts and our DPS is alot better than most guilds that say they take like 10 min to kill something it takes our guild a couple minutes. Set up the DPS groups for max DPS and the MT groups for max mitigation and you will see a big jump in DPS on any raid you attend.</P> <P>and yes we do adjust if we have no troub. its called aggro management and then that will be the time to actually know when to back off and not do as much DPS.</P>

[maddawg138]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TizZle wrote:<BR> <DIV>Only thing we offer to a MT is Nilihism(we do have melee damage proc but not worth being in MT group for that) which can be cast on anyone on the raid. We usually assist the MA (main assist). We need to be grouped with other casters(we have a power buff and ebon thought), a healer(group heal for epic aoe's if u get too close or didnt joust quick enough), and a bard/chanter(power regen).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your MA / MT should be smart enough to tell you when to go all out in a raid depending on the strat. for each encounter.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you do NOT need a healer in the caster/DPS group. If you can time the AE's right you should get in and out and if you dont its your own [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fault you died then.</P> <P>Read my previous post on a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good DPS group.</P> <p>Message Edited by maddawg138 on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:52 AM</span>

[TizZle]

Once u have AE times and someone that can call them correctly you are very correct ......  

[maddawg138]

<DIV>also dont forget that conjurors can kill their pet and heal the group for 1k HP (dunno if/what necro's get) but that is also useful to heal the group with no healer after an AE</DIV>

[Oakbr]

<div></div>I'm in a raiding guild now, and we're tank heavy, so my raiding toon is the Warlock.  I'm usually the lowest level (52) in the raid, and often the first to die (sigh) but I'm learning.  Lessons learned: 1)  Devastation is a nifty spell, but not reccomended early in a fight.  Almost guaranteed aggro/death.  Keep that one in your pocket for a while, even against groups. 2)  Same deal with Nil Absolution, but less so than Devastation. 3)  I tend to open fights with debuff, netheros, Aura of Darkness (think that's it--the bonus damage to poison nukes one), Dark Infestation, Nul Distortion, Soul Flay, wash, rinse,  repeat.  Sometimes I'll throw out Pyre, Pillaging, or mana-pump. 4)  Maximum casting range is a good place to be.  I like to be as far away as I can and still hit with the spells listed above.  5)   You can drop Devastation later in a fight, even against single target encounters.  Nice range and damage.  You'll know you did it too soon if you see the revive screen. 6)   Turning the MT into a frog during the pull has some comedic value, but most people know we can do that now, and find it less amusing than I do. <p>Message Edited by Oakbrow on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:52 PM</span>

[Galap]

<DIV>"6)   Turning the MT into a frog during the pull has some comedic value, but most people know we can do that now, and find it less amusing than I do."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, I've polymorphed conjurer pets into frogs and rats just to make it easier to see what the hell is going on.  Those rock-things can really clutter up the screen.</DIV>

[Oakbr]

<DIV><EM>Actually, I've polymorphed conjurer pets into frogs and rats just to make it easier to see what the hell is going on.  Those rock-things can really clutter up the screen.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>Great idea.  I used this tonight on our raids, and the conjurer loved it.  Also works well in tight dungeon spaces.  Thanks for the tip <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>