Do we really have anything that a wizard doesnt have

[realgreyhame]

<DIV>Besides devastation and nil is there anything we get? I dont see anything thats puts us even equal to wizzys they have evac, they get a mez, thier recast times are generally shorter, they hit alot harder, what about their int buff? So is there anything that we have to even compare to them once past devastation and nil i dont see any advantages that we have. I dont think that we should be equal but if were gonna be aoe specialists then lets be aoe specialists hands down not second no 1. A  zerker shouldnt be doin better than us, a ranger shouldnt be able to do that much more dmg than we can, lets get it right we sacrificed everything to be top tier dps, so lets be top tier dps, even the wizzys gettin surpassed by the rangers thats not right at least i dont think it is.</DIV>

[realgreyhame]

<P>forgot to mention the lack of the need for crystals to cast a spell, must be nice.</P> <P> </P>

[Dreadwalk]

 I regularly party with a WIZ and he absolutely loves the 4.5k Ice comets.  Against solo targets I cant get close.  Nil crystals make it a disincentive to use the spells that use them.  I usually cast a curse then a NIl spell together but in heroic mob fights thats 3-4 seconds you lose just to recover your Nil crystal on the next 4sec spell you cast. Our utility is also very sub par, I cant recall last time I used the group power drain (pillaging) line. Except for the self health-->power spell if the rest disappeared from my  spell list  I wouldnt really notice. My time again I would probably go WIZ even though I like my warlock , they just seem more fun. <div></div>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<P>/shrug</P> <P>I often duo with a Wizzie about 2 levels beneath me, and we make a heck of a team. I start us out with Devastation, he lands his group root behind it, I start with ND and he wraps up the stragglers with fast cast single target nukes. He is more "powerful" on the tougher solo mobs, I am on the group mobs, but we complement each other fairly well. Can't speak for raid situations, though.......</P>

[Deathspell]

Don't think the issue is damage output here, wizards are for solo encounters and warlocks for group encounters. That's cool. The thing was, is and always will be that the wizard class has utilities (like any other class btw) and the Warlocks do not. Warlock class has not one utility; no evac, no heal, no call-of-the-hero, no rez, no mez, no speedbuff,... The Warlock is really cool and I enjoy playing it, I really do, but when it comes to utilities I don't feel treated equally. <div></div>

[betterji]

i picked the class for damage and thats what it gives me warlocks are god in aoe situations.  Also the Ancient teaching spells can be considered utility kinda the Dark infestation adds lots of dmg in a raid situation where they can stay up for long amount of time also Null Caress is helpfull when tons of mobs get close just pop they are all away stunned fear'd and slowed thats handy.

[Tiranus62]

Null Caress may be considered as a good utility, the problem is you got it at LvL 55 only. So, don't forget that many players are not lvl60 and would be very pleased to have sometime really usefull before the end of the game... <div></div>

[Ickky]

<P>Casting times suck and should be reduced.</P> <P>Our utility is zip and as other posters state we should be given something.</P> <P>Rangers out damage us is not right</P> <P>Conjurors assassin pets out dps us not right</P> <P>When will the int cap reduction to dps be remedied</P> <P>We rock for grps dps but our cast times are still to high</P> <P> </P> <P>Ickky</P> <P>57 Warlock</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kaj]

I've been outdamaged by rangers and zerkers in AoE situations, and not just in one fight but consistantly for hours on end.  I've got adept 3's of my spells and am around 350 int without anyone elses buffs. I don't feel like the king of AoE DPS and I don't even come close on single target DPS.  I've been outdamaged by paladins in that situation. Did I mention that I have an entire bag's worth of space wasted with Nil Crystals? Mevlar Wolfpack 60 Warlock Unrest <div></div>

[betterji]

<DIV>out damage by a pally? forshame go back to warlock school how could ya let that happen</DIV>

[V4n]

To fix warlocks, we need a BIG single target nuke at level 60.  20K on a 5 or 10 minute timer would bring me back to the game.  I am not holding my breath lol.

[Tanatus]

<DIV>List what have warlock what wizard dont have</DIV> <DIV>a) Massive damage enhancer AoE, CG and NR</DIV> <DIV>b) AoE stun</DIV> <DIV>c) Fear</DIV> <DIV>d) Pacify</DIV> <DIV>e) Practically Irresistable Spells (tm) (haha wizard DPS??? - lol poor sobs barely able keep up with guardians nowdays and falling behind paladins because of that)</DIV> <DIV>f) AOE proc on damage shield</DIV> <DIV>Thats a short list what warlock and wizard dont</DIV> <DIV>P.S. and oh ya if you cannt beat zerker or any other class in AoE situation by at least 30% you have no clue how to play your class (hint: best start would be getting paladin in your group)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tanatus on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[pharacyde]

<span><blockquote><hr>V4nce wrote:To fix warlocks, we need a BIG single target nuke at level 60.  20K on a 5 or 10 minute timer would bring me back to the game.  I am not holding my breath lol.<hr></blockquote>Well dark infestation adds up realy fast when it procs. Basicly most of the time when the dark broodlings come out is the time I stop casting any other spell for a few seconds or I will have agro for sure. 3 broodling doing AE nukes every 6secs for 24 secs. I think they nuke for around 250damage. So on one mob you have 12 nukes for 250damage or 3k damage. If the encounter has 5 mobs you mulitply it, gives you 15k at best tho. But if the broodlings proc netherous realm or any other proc spell it can get even higher. I dont think any wizard has something like that. It's free dps.</span><div></div>

[Araxes]

<div></div>edited to be posted in its own thread <div></div><p>Message Edited by Vicontessa on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:28 PM</span>

[betterji]

<DIV>very well put tantus if you cant out dps other in group situation you gotta suck or something</DIV>

[sAs-Bartleby]

Do we really have anything that a wizard doesnt have? Answer: Yes. It is an unvisible spell. You cannot found him in chests, you even cannot find a sage do scribe it. You know this spell is not visible. It is the counterpart to depart of the wizard spell line. sorry for sarcasm. <div></div>

[Kaeylum]

Ok i can't hold my tongue any longer. Every day i read in our forums how many people think warlocks suck. This is simply not true. Now i won't break out the old,"if u think they suck u don't know how to play your class" line, but in this case it might be partly true. I grp with a necro a pally a brigand, and then some other random classes, and if it's a grp mob, i'm never, i repeat, never beaten on dps. I know this because i use a parser regularly. Granted i'm nearly 60, so have a bit wider range of spells, but even when i was lower lvl, when it came to grps, no one beat me. So to all those who would complain of lack of DPS, and to you who said u were beaten my a Zerker....this may just be you. If it is, don't feel bad, send a /t to some higher lvl warlocks and get some advice. We are NOT gimped, just keep repeating that......*edited for spelling<p>Message Edited by Kaeylum on <span class=date_text>11-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[Tanatus]

Excatly noone been me in the kitchen errr in AoE type fights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ziffna]

<P>While we don't suck in anyway as far as dps is concerned we have numerous other problums that are simply being worked around.  some of them have to do with other broken classes or class skills but we are kinda lost on our real benifit of dps in that there is only one tank class that is able to really let us use what we have todate the only tank class i don't regularly pull agro off of when using our signature aoe's is a palladin with amends on me other then that i spend half the fights standing there while mobs are eather dieing faster then i can cast another spell off or i'm tanking the mobs instead of the tank.  Our hate reducing spell is stupid in the extream as we have to have hate already to get any benifit has a pointless heal after 20 and we don't get the spell till 40, it also reqires us to be hit by mobs that are doing several 100-1000's of damage in order to reduce our hate.  Our aoe's don't hit mobs in an area other then our fury line only in a group so we are unable to use them effectivly if we have multiple incounters ( other then fury line).  Our aoe debuff doesn't indicate how many targets it lands on anymore so we have no idea weather we have successfully debuffed the encounter or simply successfully debuffed 1 mob.  Dark infestation with the changes to damage type on many of our spells is insanly hard to get to trigger the pets except in raid encounters.  Our seal line of buffs is pathetic and if it is only intended to be a decrease in resist chance i would rather it simply be listed as such X% reduction to resists rather then this obsucre buffing of our stats which no one can provide any real factual evedence to prove or disprove its working.  Our Pyre line is so increadably under powered as are all of our single target nukes and dots.  All of our power conversion transfer spells are increadably weak.  Going from dark pillaging ad3 to shadowed pillaging adept 1 14 levels later only ammounted to 1 more power per tick regen but a 50 point higher power cost and only a 5 point change in power drain effect on the mobs affected.  Our fury line with the changes to reduce the max number of targets that it can effect being our only out of encounter aoe needs needs a damage upgrade to reflect the excessivly restictive target restrictions.  </P> <P>I still enjoy playing my warlock even tho the changes made the class something that i never had any desire to play with the given style but there are alot of changes that need to be addressed with the class.  The int cap causing damage to scale down as you level needs to be addressed sooner not latter for all mage classes.  Please address some of the issues with class ballance that have been going on for months since the revamp before pushing more changes to experince gain and the death system.  </P>

[tiki-jiki]

I have a friend who is a zerker, they have an AoE attack that is godly, but on a 3 minute timer. So once every few pulls he will outdamage me, but i have him the rest of the time. <div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

1. AE drain + group mana regen:<BR> <DIV>    This spell is now useful after they reduced the recast and mana cost. Now at adept1, you dont lose mana (because the regen gives you mana back after 36sec,) and you give other group members about 200 mana every minute for free.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <DIV>2. AE stun:<BR> <DIV>    This is an okay spell though it doesnt work vs. epic anymore.<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>3. str / int debuff:<BR> <DIV>    Reduce enemy damage output.<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>4. max hp / mana debuff:<BR> <DIV>    This spell sucks lol<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>5. aura of darkness line:<BR> <DIV>    Does good damage vs. single target<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>6. +casting spells:<BR> <DIV>    Hard to say if it's better than +int buff. It's more useful in raid or killing yellow+ mobs.</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by QQFatman on <span class=date_text>11-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:53 AM</span>

[Ugho]

<P>All I can say about my Warlock is I love it!  Especially since I have gotten Devastation, WOW!</P> <P>I can go up against 4 single/double arrow down mobs up to about 4 levels higher than me, cast Devastation, run backwards and wait for the full effect to hit and stun, then they are already dead, or I can cast another AE and they are gone.  I could then take on a regular mob  after that and kill him easy, then turn around and use Devastation again on a group, and repeat.  Soloing is cake.</P> <P>I can also take out Double Arrow mobs relatively easy using Devastation/Cower/etc.</P> <P>Why people complain about this class and compare themselves to other ones I have no idea.  I already think we rock, who cares if other people do less/more.  Just go out and enjoy!</P>

[Styk]

<P>Why are you saying a person is weak when they get outdpsed by a zerker in group fights? With my RGF on a group fight ive parsed past 3k dps with rampage and open wounds...</P> <P>If you laugh at that number then something is wrong ( my warlock is only 34 atm and its hard not pulling hate lol will what happened when im in the T6 range ) </P> <p>Message Edited by Styker on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 AM</span>

[Ziffna]

<DIV>No because in teir 6 you will be reduced to standing there or risk pulling agro.</DIV>

[Oakbr]

From my perspective, Warlocks are a powerful class, but we are also a one-trick pony.  We make things dead.  Lots of things.  Very dead.  But that's really all we bring to the table.  Nilhism?  It's ok...unless there's a Druid or Conjurer in the group.   Seal line?  Nobody seems to know what exactly it does, if anything.   It would be nice to have some utility beyond our whopping +200ish power pool group buff.  Evac would be great...or group invis...or spell haste...or aggro reduction...even Feign Death, as suggested in another thread.

[Junaru]

Well I can't say I liked the changes to the Warlock but I'm learning to live with them. I agree AoE DPS we hold our own and I don't see a need for a fix. 90% of the time in AoE I am number one. BTW a little trick when AoE don't assist the MT or MA if you are going to AoE. Target the furthest mob from the MT or MA and nuke that mob. The reason is you will see less "Target is not alive" message since you will be the only one with it as your target. Utility? Well no doubt here we lack any "good" utility.  I would love to see something done about this. Casting times. Ugg this is without a doubt the single worst thing about the Warlock class. We went from the fastest casting Sorc to the slowest and man does it suck. I remember posting a about how we were better then Wizards for a few reasons and one of those reasons was our faster cast times. Waiting 3.4 seconds only to see all the mobs are dead and your spell didn't cast is getting old. I could see if this was an uncommon thing but every fight of every night just sucks. <div></div>

[betterji]

to nuke and not pull agro is what the class is all about its fun to learn to play the class to its max

[Belash]

From my experiences, I hold my own when it comes to dps.  I don't like the long casting times, but I can deal with that.  I know I do a lot of damage because of the hate I generate. If I have a beef, it is the lack of variety in the spells.  There are some other non-damage spells, but they are not as useful as practically all other classes.  <div></div>

[tim the so]

In my opinion, wizards and warlocks do plenty of damage, single target or groups, I have no problem keeping up with a wizard's dps on single targets.  However, I have a problem with scouts and tanks doing more damage than myself or any caster for that matter (except perhaps a chanter, but they have many many other good things).  If you ask me, as casters, we gave up everything in exchange for being the highest dps classes, and I get a little annoyed to see a swashbuckler or ranger doing more dmg than me, they get to wear real live armor, AND they have useful detaunts.  I declare shenanigans.  <div></div>

[Tanatus]

<P>Guys main problem as I see it now is <STRONG><U>SUSTEINED</U></STRONG> dps of warlocks</P> <P>Raid buffed I have almost 5500 power pool, I have adept 3 cani and usually have heart + stone items from necro and conjurer on top of it I have total FT18 and usually have bard in my group. 2.5 max 3 min of AoE combat = I am dry and my DPS goes from sky high down to about 300 or so (basically just nuking with Devastation as soon as timer pop and using Dark Investation as soon as timer pop same for Netherous Realm). Sadly I can sustein high DPS vs. single target not for much longer either</P> <P>Solution? I love to see our canibalization unnerfed before rewamp we have 500 health into 400 power every 20s and few more hunder power vs. endow energy every 17s. What we have now is 450 health for 230 power every 20s and almot 100power every 17s via endow energy. Alternatively built-in in our AoE and DD spells some sort of mana taps like we have for Distortion line. And dont foget that efficiency of Distortion line been droped 4X time since LU14 </P> <P>Second major problem with agro. I'd rather love to see Seal line of buff converted into de-agro buff. Frankly we dont need +int buff - in raid enviroment I am constantly running 520+ int which is WAY above cap, in group situation I run 420-430 int which is nearly cap and solo I run at 380 and basically within 5% of max possible damage anyway</P> <P>Last problem which is more or less minor but annoying as hell problem... Min-Max gap. I cannt believe it but at lvl 60 with int above cap my devastation on average do LESS damage then it did back then I was lvl 50 per LU13. At max int at Adept 3 devastation hit on 452-821 averaging 615 damage in past Dev use to hit 580-680 averaging 640 damage per tic. Now look on Nul Distortion - at M2 it hit target with capped int on 1472-2762 averaging 2115 for power cost of 137 with effiency around 1:15 or so... Now look on spell precurcor Nil Distortion pre LU13 - it was hitting 2100-2804 at Master 1 with power cost of 50 which was 1:50 ....Also spare me a bull that now Distortion line have overall shorter recircling - yes it do but precurcors spell not stackable anymore they on same time and believe me BSS+ND >>>>> Nul Distortion. Solution? reduce max damage and seriously increase min damage. About cast-recast I'd much more prefer to see 2s cast 13s recast spell then 3s cast 12s recast and for AE something along line 2.5-3s instead of 4s to cast with proportionally increased recast timer</P>

[stoggy]

<DIV>necros beat warlocks in group dps.  they dont run out of mana because of lich (get some hp regen) and they dont pull as much aggro because some of their damage is thier pet.  i dont however play my warlock because he does the most damage, and i have noticed necros pulling more aggro but have yet to see any mention of this in any update notes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for this ae stun people keep talking about i have never seen it.  unless you mean dark nebula which is a group stun.  big difference.  we do have an ae interrupt though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>these disease spells people talk about ... not sure.  i can think of 3 nil absolution, shadowed pyre, and aura of emptiness(maybe darkness i forget which, the reactive nuke, which seems to get resisted by every poison resist mob i have fought, it started out as a poison spell doesnt seem to be fully changed to disease yet) ... with the recast on these spells or their inability to do much damage we are poison based.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when i play my alts i watch warlocks cast absolution spells on groups of two mobs and run out of mana because the spell costs more mana, when they could just single target nuke and do a lot more dmg ... try putting your dots on the other mob and nuking the tanks mob ... no aggro either.  if you do the math its cheaper and more effective to cast single target nukes on 3 or fewer mobs.  at 3 its real close dont forget the aspect line it goes off with dots now too.  just burn them down 1 at a time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for utility giving the tank mana is about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poison/Disease is spread by contact we should nuke somthing and the target should dish out our damage ... like putting an aura on a tank, a target, or ourselves and when the mobs get close to the target they get damaged.   with the pathing issues in some places hopefully the morons at soe cant read or disagree with me, and yes i think the morons at soe are morons solely because they cant read.</DIV><p>Message Edited by stoggy on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 AM</span>

[Tanatus]

<P>Dude do you realize that warlocks AoE do MORE damage PER MOB then single target DD?. </P> <P>Lets take 2 mob encounter (total amount of HP for encounter is relative constant and relate only to lvl of encounter) in other words single +++ have around 15-20K hp depending on type -2X2 arrow up will have HP pool around same 2X10-12K, 4 no arrow up again pretty much same 4X5-6K</P> <P>Devastation at Adept 3 if mob not debuffed do 2.25-4.1K per mob compare to Nul Distortion Master 2 1472-2746... aka Dev do 2X damage of ND</P> <P>Lets look on Nil Absolution vs. Nul Distortion same cast-recast (1s longer cast for Nil) 1.3-2.4K per mob vs. 1.4-2.7K well guess what? if you have 2 mob Nil Abs will do 2.6-4.8K damage PER CAST while Nul Distortion merely 1.4-2.7K. More over power cost of 2X Nul Distortion not THAT much different of power cost of single cast of Nil Abs... Now if you include in equation Netherous Realm difference will be even bigger - while if you use single target DD you damage enhancer will proc only 2X time upon using AoE on 2 mob encounter you will get 4X procs</P> <DIV>Basically by using AoE vs. 2+ instead of single target DD warlock boost own DPS by 50%. vs 5+ encounter DPS is like 4X compare to single target</DIV> <DIV>Warlock DoT are pretty much useless unless they used in prolonged combat (with exception of Dark Investation - this is most powerfull single target warlock attack) I dont recall how long work necros dots but warlocks dot - 18-24s which mean they not usable even vs. single none epic +++</DIV>

[stoggy]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV>now in a grp xp since ... absolution is 337power where as distortion is 215power ... what do you xp for 1 group of mobs and log out? i want to see how you are getting anything close to full damage on all the monsters in the encounter from your absolution spells when at best i can get 1/2 way from min to max on the maelstromed monsters and the bare minimum on the un maelstromed monsters.   devastation is good too but with a 45 second recast i gotta wonder how slow your groups are killing that you can cast this every fight and get full damage from it on every monster.  i find myself lucky to get it off every other fight which case its all i cast ... in the other fights i only use distortion and soul blister unless there a 3+ mobs then i will try and get absolution off.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for netheros realm i have only been able to get this to proc with dark nebula ... waste of time to cast more then once in a group xp since.  dark infestation procs to often and the recast of the pets keep them out of the fight until they are desummoned ... i use shadowed pyre, dark infestation costs 2x the mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now in a raid since ... raid mob has a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]load of hps ... thats a lot of nukes your going to run out of power and be left with 0dps ... what then melee?  you put virulent grasp on yourself?  long fights require power management.  i dont care how much ft you got.  i have about 30 incombat regen and still run out of power.  usually starting with over 6k power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and if you mean AoE like Area of effect ... get a clue you will draw so much aggro only a paly will be able to hold it and you will be dead in a few shots and if you do live the recast on corrupt gift is so stupidly long and the duration so short concidering the recast on boundless fury you are wasting your time get a necro, their version of corrupt gift is far superior to warlocks.</DIV> <P>warlock dots <P>info pulled from sticky post at top of forum, i couldnt log in and get info from my spells ... <P>shadowed pyre adept 1 -- 145 power  156-290 insta dmg   94-174 every 2 secs for 10 secs    626-1160dmg on a maelstomed monster expect something close to full dmg (this is 1 of 3 disease based spells very effective in expansion 1 of 2 that actually works) ... you can cast this 2 times and still costs less then 1 absolution spell and do 1252-2320  <<< mind this is '''adept1 damage''' <P>scourge of shadows adept 3 -- 81 power   84-156dmg every 3 secs for 18 secs   504-936dmg on a maelstromed monster expect something close to full dmg ... you can cast this 4 times and still costs less then 1 absolution spell and doing 2016-3744 damage. this one also has a 8 second recast and a 18 second duration ... as for worthless well you know i guess</P> <P> </P> <P>Again if less then 3 mobs dont cast your encounter spells its a waste of time and power.</P></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by stoggy on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:42 PM</span>

[stoggy]

<DIV>--- doh double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by stoggy on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 PM</span>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Why are you saying a person is weak when they get outdpsed by a zerker in group fights? With my RGF on a group fight ive parsed past 3k dps with rampage and open wounds...</P> <P>If you laugh at that number then something is wrong ( my warlock is only 34 atm and its hard not pulling hate lol will what happened when im in the T6 range ) </P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:00 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not a flame but: Must be nice to do 3k DPS and be a 'fighter' class, no matter how long the reuse timer is. Fix Gaurds please SOE.

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <P>Guys main problem as I see it now is <STRONG><U>SUSTEINED</U></STRONG> dps of warlocks</P> <P>Raid buffed I have almost 5500 power pool, I have adept 3 cani and usually have heart + stone items from necro and conjurer on top of it I have total FT18 and usually have bard in my group. 2.5 max 3 min of AoE combat = I am dry and my DPS goes from sky high down to about 300 or so (basically just nuking with Devastation as soon as timer pop and using Dark Investation as soon as timer pop same for Netherous Realm). Sadly I can sustein high DPS vs. single target not for much longer either</P> <P>Solution? I love to see our canibalization unnerfed before rewamp we have 500 health into 400 power every 20s and few more hunder power vs. endow energy every 17s. What we have now is 450 health for 230 power every 20s and almot 100power every 17s via endow energy. Alternatively built-in in our AoE and DD spells some sort of mana taps like we have for Distortion line. And dont foget that efficiency of Distortion line been droped 4X time since LU14 </P> <P>Second major problem with agro. I'd rather love to see Seal line of buff converted into de-agro buff. Frankly we dont need +int buff - in raid enviroment I am constantly running 520+ int which is WAY above cap, in group situation I run 420-430 int which is nearly cap and solo I run at 380 and basically within 5% of max possible damage anyway</P> <P>Last problem which is more or less minor but annoying as hell problem... Min-Max gap. I cannt believe it but at lvl 60 with int above cap my devastation on average do LESS damage then it did back then I was lvl 50 per LU13. At max int at Adept 3 devastation hit on 452-821 averaging 615 damage in past Dev use to hit 580-680 averaging 640 damage per tic. Now look on Nul Distortion - at M2 it hit target with capped int on 1472-2762 averaging 2115 for power cost of 137 with effiency around 1:15 or so... Now look on spell precurcor Nil Distortion pre LU13 - it was hitting 2100-2804 at Master 1 with power cost of 50 which was 1:50 ....Also spare me a bull that now Distortion line have overall shorter recircling - yes it do but precurcors spell not stackable anymore they on same time and believe me BSS+ND >>>>> Nul Distortion. Solution? reduce max damage and seriously increase min damage. About cast-recast I'd much more prefer to see 2s cast 13s recast spell then 3s cast 12s recast and for AE something along line 2.5-3s instead of 4s to cast with proportionally increased recast timer</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agree 100%

[Tanatus]

Stogy *sign* first of all my warlock then did exp grind he soloed and without vita I been doing 20% in hour killing guards in MajDul .... I time then I PLed my guildies we use to pull 7-8 ENCOUNTERS at Seering Eye Gorge (near Ancient Table). Ang guess what? Having up Netherous Realm + Corrupted Gift in conjution of using Boundless Fury (as soon as timer refresh) as well as using Nil Abs on 1 encounter, Devastation on second, Dark Nebula of third and Dark Investation+Vullian Intrusion on some +++ or ++ (and I hope you know what effect have this combo)..... Thats produce some serious DPS <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raids is all together different story then you fight something with massive HP - I have around 5.5K raid buffed and usually running with maximum possible in game regenration at 75 points/tic as well as fact that I have heart and stone (from conjurer and necro correspondently).... But of course I do run of power about as fast as you are .... 2-2.5min AoE combat or 3-4min single target combat... With troubadur+paladin I burst all I got and never get agro .... then MT is Zerk - perhaps your raiding force using different type of tank in that case you guys might consider to change it ... (just a friendly advice). Once I empty I go into conservative mode (consume heart, consume stone, cani, cani over time) and use power to support best DPM spells (Damage per mana). I pop Devastation every time it up, I pop Dark Investation every time it up, I pop Netherous realm every time its up, I use Netherous ALL the time (its solid 66DPS melee dot  with duration of 45s). If I have any spare power left after that - Nul Distortion and Soul Blister</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. please spare me fairy tales about anarhic maelstorm from parse it shown it barely increase DPS by 2% (at adept 1, prolly will increase by 4% by Master 1). Dont get me wrong lol - noxious debuffing greatly improve our performance (I'd estimate that on fully debuffed mob I get on everage on 40% DPS more) but 600 to noxious ..... lol it less then nothing</DIV>

[Poochymama]

<DIV>Warlocks are much better than wizzies at the moment. A good warlock can come within 10% of a good wizzies single target dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A good wizard can come close to half of a warlocks AOE dps?</DIV>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kajic wrote:<BR>I've been outdamaged by rangers and zerkers in AoE situations, and not just in one fight but consistantly for hours on end.  I've got adept 3's of my spells and am around 350 int without anyone elses buffs.<BR><BR>I don't feel like the king of AoE DPS and I don't even come close on single target DPS.  I've been outdamaged by paladins in that situation.<BR><BR>Did I mention that I have an entire bag's worth of space wasted with Nil Crystals?<BR><BR><BR>Mevlar<BR>Wolfpack<BR>60 Warlock<BR>Unrest<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There is no way a zerker could consistently out dps you. Unless they have rampage up which can only be used every 6 fights or so. Other than that they only have 3 AOEs that do 250ish average dmg on 45sec recast timers<BR>

[Nerga]

BZZZZZZZZZZ wrong awnser ,you didnt pulled 7-8 encounters because there is a 5 encounter limit.Once you are engaged in 5 you cant agro more.

[Geoff]

<P>i don't know what the rest of you are talking about, I'm the most powerful mage on my server! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P><waits for Sally or someone to come kick my butt></P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Geoff77 on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 AM</span>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Haha you think so???? Well you might not engage more then 5 but you can and will agro as many as you want if you see a difference......</DIV> <DIV>P.S. Once upon time I been exploiting with my coercer one sweet bug ... Once 5 charmed die suposely you cannt engage in combat anymore.... because you "engage" counter full.. Well guess what SOE fixed that... YOU cannt engage more then 5 encounters at time (aka once I charmed 5th pet I was not able cast any single offensive spell nor send pet to attack anything) yet.... I for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and gigle I agroed halth SS running from Anuk Eye mining area to Undercity Mining Area .....- it was hard to say how many encounters I have argoed but it remind me ye old sweets time in EQ1 trains in BoT ....</DIV>

[Nerga]

<DIV>So you they beat on you and you cant fight back....yeah...now that sound better....</DIV> <DIV>Keep on teh fairy tales,we like to hear you tell them.Wish I had a baby to put to sleep with our fairy tales.</DIV>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Nergal if you smoking please pass it down cause its really good crack bud.....</DIV> <DIV>Ever played EQ1? Ever heared term "chain-pulling"? well guess what picking up 7-8 encounters at time serve pretty much same purpose plus in past (just a hint for ya since I see you are lacking basic knowledge of game machanic) PBAE hadn't have targets limits.... (well now its 8 so maximum you can hit prolly 3 encounters).</DIV> <DIV>So my advice lol grow up so you can actually have a baby to put em sleep with my stories <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[DearthofWeal]

Warlocks solo much better than wizzies.  Warlocks work better in groups than Wizzies.  Other than Gates of Ahket Aken, warlocks are better DPS than wizzies.  We only need to cast our debuff ONCE during a fight (it's not THAT impressive, the damage increase, but it ain't bad for a quick-casting spell like AM). I would dare a wizard to challenge a warlock in a solo'ng contest.  We win hands down.  In an XP group situation, we're gonna be doing more DPS than the wizzy more often than not.  We have better heroic mob "Oh Sh*t" spells (VIntrusion, Null Caress, Thwart, Nebula).  Finally, we do better DPS on raids. But yeah, wizards get evac soooooooo definitely re-roll your warlock into a wizzy (it'll make the masters a bit cheaper). <div></div>

[silentpsycho]

"Guys main problem as I see it now is SUSTEINED dps of warlocks"Funny, main problem I see is your lack of ability to spell SUSTAINED. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I think I agree with your point, though. Our spells are very power intensive, and it is frustrating that our cast times are so long.

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <P>Dude do you realize that warlocks AoE do MORE damage PER MOB then single target DD?. </P> <P>Lets take 2 mob encounter (total amount of HP for encounter is relative constant and relate only to lvl of encounter) in other words single +++ have around 15-20K hp depending on type -2X2 arrow up will have HP pool around same 2X10-12K, 4 no arrow up again pretty much same 4X5-6K</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Devastation at Adept 3 if mob not debuffed do 2.25-4.1K per mob </FONT>compare to Nul Distortion Master 2 1472-2746... aka Dev do 2X damage of ND</P> <P>Lets look on Nil Absolution vs. Nul Distortion same cast-recast (1s longer cast for Nil) 1.3-2.4K per mob vs. 1.4-2.7K well guess what? if you have 2 mob Nil Abs will do 2.6-4.8K damage PER CAST while Nul Distortion merely 1.4-2.7K. More over power cost of 2X Nul Distortion not THAT much different of power cost of single cast of Nil Abs... Now if you include in equation Netherous Realm difference will be even bigger - while if you use single target DD you damage enhancer will proc only 2X time upon using AoE on 2 mob encounter you will get 4X procs</P> <DIV>Basically by using AoE vs. 2+ instead of single target DD warlock boost own DPS by 50%. vs 5+ encounter DPS is like 4X compare to single target</DIV> <DIV>Warlock DoT are pretty much useless unless they used in prolonged combat (with exception of Dark Investation - this is most powerfull single target warlock attack) I dont recall how long work necros dots but warlocks dot - 18-24s which mean they not usable even vs. single none epic +++</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nice... 6 Ice Comets... at the same time... :smileysurprised:</P> <P>And they had to nerf Surging Tempest because there was no way we could have two high damage nukes :smileysad:<BR></P>

[sAs-Bartleby]

<span><blockquote><hr>putergod wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Tanatus wrote: <p>Dude do you realize that warlocks AoE do MORE damage PER MOB then single target DD?. </p> <p>Lets take 2 mob encounter (total amount of HP for encounter is relative constant and relate only to lvl of encounter) in other words single +++ have around 15-20K hp depending on type -2X2 arrow up will have HP pool around same 2X10-12K, 4 no arrow up again pretty much same 4X5-6K</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Devastation at Adept 3 if mob not debuffed do 2.25-4.1K per mob </font>compare to Nul Distortion Master 2 1472-2746... aka Dev do 2X damage of ND</p> <p>Lets look on Nil Absolution vs. Nul Distortion same cast-recast (1s longer cast for Nil) 1.3-2.4K per mob vs. 1.4-2.7K well guess what? if you have 2 mob Nil Abs will do 2.6-4.8K damage PER CAST while Nul Distortion merely 1.4-2.7K. More over power cost of 2X Nul Distortion not THAT much different of power cost of single cast of Nil Abs... Now if you include in equation Netherous Realm difference will be even bigger - while if you use single target DD you damage enhancer will proc only 2X time upon using AoE on 2 mob encounter you will get 4X procs</p> <div>Basically by using AoE vs. 2+ instead of single target DD warlock boost own DPS by 50%. vs 5+ encounter DPS is like 4X compare to single target</div> <div>Warlock DoT are pretty much useless unless they used in prolonged combat (with exception of Dark Investation - this is most powerfull single target warlock attack) I dont recall how long work necros dots but warlocks dot - 18-24s which mean they not usable even vs. single none epic +++</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Nice... 6 Ice Comets... at the same time... :smileysurprised:</p> <p>And they had to nerf Surging Tempest because there was no way we could have two high damage nukes :smileysad:</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>Don´t be sad please, Every click on devastation on heroic group mobs cost abaut 1 gold  repair costs. Waiting two taunt cycles from MT means... 1. Single target gets 4 taunts + taunt attacks 2. other group targets get 2 taunts. These two taunts are easily beaten by devastation. So we can use it when the first mob is dead (perhaps) The naked calculation what Devastation might do for max damage is silly in my eyes. We simply cannot cast it without pulling aggro, so in group devastation can be cast max. one time per group. In raid situations the troubs are in the MT group and the worlooks elesewhere. So most of the time we cannot benefit the spell the troubadour could provide to us. It would be nice if we could transfer hate from us to a fighter target (MT). Lets say 10% -20% that would be fine. And let it work like resurection, the tank gets a pop up window and is asked wether he want to take the aggro or not.