I see the devs posting in a lot of class forums can we please hav an answer about our seal line?

[Raxe Sla]

<DIV>This has been brought up multiple times by many people, our Seal line does nothing. and we lost our int buff for it.  Can the devs please comment on this? What I beleive its meant to do is make us resist less against higher con mobs however it does no such thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MilkToa]

I wouldn't hold your breath, all of the dev post to date are about changes made in LU16.

[ArconisDarkfy]

I don't even know if we have a dev... looks like all the mage classes get no response from the devs in charge of our classes.... So I wouldn't expect any kind of response... other then the fact they don't care what we think. unless your a coercer which is the only mage who has a dev posting in their forums....

[vorek]

<P>**REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P> <P>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:22 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[pharacyde]

If you want responses on combat arts there is a forum dedicated to that, all classes post their problems with spells over there, and sometimes they get responses also. I made a post over htere, about the seal line, in the hope to get some attention. <div></div>

[*P*Gra]

do we need a int buff?  we have distruption buffs int boosts the damage your spell does the boosted distuption means your spells are less likely to get resisted? <div></div>

[pharacyde]

That's the whole point, the disruption buff doesn't seem to do anything. <div></div>

[Lockeye]

<div></div>Increases to casting skills affect your chances at preventing the enemy from outright resisting the spell completely. In effect, it's similar to the impact that offensive melee skill increases work calculating hits on an enemy. Skill increases work best when fighting enemies that are more likely to outright resist your spells, such as yellow, orange, and red higher cons. With area effect spells, it increases the chance that every target gets hit by the area effect. Edit: For beneficial spells, casting skill increases will lower the chances of fizzle. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 PM</span>

[Made]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> Increases to casting skills affect your chances at preventing the enemy from outright resisting the spell completely. In effect, it's similar to the impact that offensive melee skill increases work calculating hits on an enemy. Skill increases work best when fighting enemies that are more likely to outright resist your spells, such as yellow, orange, and red higher cons. With area effect spells, it increases the chance that every target gets hit by the area effect.<BR><BR>Edit: For beneficial spells, casting skill increases will lower the chances of fizzle.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:21 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Now that is a understandable explanation of a buff with somewhat difficult to observe effects.  Thank you.<BR>

[Moonspark]

<DIV>That statement is almost a direct contradiction to what Moorguard has said in the past.  So who should we believe?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lockeye who states, "<FONT color=#ff0000>Skill increases work best when fighting enemies that are more likely to outright resist your spells, such as yellow, orange, and red higher cons.</FONT> With area effect spells, it increases the chance that every target gets hit by the area effect."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or is it Moorguard, who states, "Skill buffs don't work the way they did before LU13. Pre-combat changes, a skill boost of +5 essentially made you a level higher when it came to using that skill. This caused all kinds of things to become broken, especially considering the way buffs could be stacked. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, skill buffs are just that: a buff to your skill's effectiveness. They don't, however, allow you to roll the dice as if you were higher level than you really are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In other words, you're not hitting as if you're a 57.8 warlock; you're hitting as a 53 warlock with buffs. That's definitely better than not having the buffs, but keep in mind that their effectiveness scales based on the con of your opponent. <FONT color=#ff0000>The buffs will matter less against oranges and reds, and will make a considerable difference against opponents below your level</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This same reasoning applies to melee skill buffs as well."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:</DIV> <DIV>Source:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=71486#M71486" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=71486#M71486</A></DIV></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Moonspark on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[Lockeye]

It doesn't work like it did Pre LU13, where a +25 skill increase actually changed the effective level of the spell by 5 levels. Now it acts as a modifier, so that even with a +25 skill increase, it doesn't mean that you have an even chance at hitting things 5 levels above the caster than if they weren't using the buff. Against most even con or lower con opponents, your spells are going to land most of the time anyway, so that little room for improvement makes its benefits less perceptibe (but they're still taking effect). However against higher con targets, being able to land spells more often is relatively noticeable, but again, the post LU13 environment means that the higher the con, the more diminished the benefit (you'll see a better bonus amount for landing on yellows than high oranges and reds). <div></div>

[Named]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> Increases to casting skills affect your chances at preventing the enemy from outright resisting the spell completely. In effect, it's similar to the impact that offensive melee skill increases work calculating hits on an enemy. Skill increases work best when fighting enemies that are more likely to outright resist your spells, such as yellow, orange, and red higher cons. With area effect spells, it increases the chance that every target gets hit by the area effect.<BR><BR>Edit: For beneficial spells, casting skill increases will lower the chances of fizzle.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:21 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this because raising my disruption doesnt seem to lower my resists or anything. I've had 370+ disruption more then a few times ( scholars insight, bard buffs, gear&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and there is NO noticable resist change. About how many points are we expected to raise it to effectively make us get resisted like a level 61? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does this value scale with levels? I.E. 300 skill = level 60, 310 = 61, 330 = 62, 370 = 63, 450 = 64. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally think that this wuld be a good use of disruption -- allow it to raise our casting levels so that we get resisted like higher levels. Make the increases very significant so that it is easy to raise our level by 1 or 2, but hard to raise it more than 3.. My example of disruption to casting level would be a good scale.</DIV>

[Named]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>It doesn't work like it did Pre LU13, where a +25 skill increase actually changed the effective level of the spell by 5 levels. Now it acts as a modifier, so that even with a +25 skill increase, it doesn't mean that you have an even chance at hitting things 5 levels above the caster than if they weren't using the buff. Against most even con or lower con opponents, your spells are going to land most of the time anyway, so that little room for improvement makes its benefits less perceptibe (but they're still taking effect). However against higher con targets, being able to land spells more often is relatively noticeable, but again, the post LU13 environment means that the higher the con, the more diminished the benefit (you'll see a better bonus amount for landing on yellows than high oranges and reds).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So... Raising disruption would be best for lowering the already very low resist rate of mobs around your level, or lower? Shouldn't this skill be utilized to make it easier to hit on the mobs we have trouble hitting? Otherwise it is nearly useless and there is no real reason to get gear with + disruption on it.</DIV>

[Lockeye]

<span><blockquote><hr>Named88 wrote:<div>So... Raising disruption would be best for lowering the already very low resist rate of mobs around your level, or lower? Shouldn't this skill be utilized to make it easier to hit on the mobs we have trouble hitting? Otherwise it is nearly useless and there is no real reason to get gear with + disruption on it.</div><hr></blockquote> There's still every reason to find +casting skill gear and it does make it less difficult to land spells on higher cons, even oranges. The difference is that the benefit isn't as large against an orange as a yellow, or a red as an orange, because creature con mitigates some of the bonus (the same way physical and spell damage mitigation gets reduced when fighting higher cons). Against lower and even cons, it's more like overkill.</span><div></div>

[Moonspark]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Wizard:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Fist of  the Tyrant<BR>A group concentration buff Increases strength and intelligence of the party</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Illusionist:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Seal of Ingenuity</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>A group concentration buff increases intelligence and wisdom of the party</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Coercer:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Signet of Reason </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>A group augmentation that increases the power pools of the coercer's group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Conjuror:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Geotic Rune</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>A group augmentation that increases resistance to all types for the summoner's group and their pets.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Necromancer:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Teachings of the Shadow</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> A group augmentation that increases stamina and intelligence for the necromancer's group and their pets</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Warlock :</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Seal of Ebon Thought</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> A group augmentation that increases the effectiveness of all casting techniques of the warlock's group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2>Looks to me like Warlocks are getting the shaft,  on raids the raid leader would NEVER think of putting me in any group for my buffs.  Every class is supposed to add something useful to a group, Coercers might look like they get the shaft here too, but they have utility like crazy.  I understand I am a DPS class and I'm not meant to have utility, but explain to me why wizards get the intelligence and strength buff which makes them so much more useful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2>I love my warlock, but in terms of utility we really do get the shaft.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>

[Naithik]

<DIV>fore the sake of comprehension and transparency, could we see the actual formula please?</DIV>

[Named]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naithik wrote:<BR> <DIV>fore the sake of comprehension and transparency, could we see the actual formula please?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That would be nice, or atleast a more accurate depiction of how it actually helps -- because I'm not convinced that it is working.</DIV>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> Increases to casting skills affect your chances at preventing the enemy from outright resisting the spell completely. In effect, it's similar to the impact that offensive melee skill increases work calculating hits on an enemy. Skill increases work best when fighting enemies that are more likely to outright resist your spells, such as yellow, orange, and red higher cons. With area effect spells, it increases the chance that every target gets hit by the area effect.<BR><BR>Edit: For beneficial spells, casting skill increases will lower the chances of fizzle.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:21 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>and this worthless spell is what we get a master 2 choice in. - and i call it worthless because at 60 i hit everything.  I use the lowbie buff, not the +casting skill buff.  I raid 3-4 nights a week, and consistently come out in the top of the dps chart.  Rangers/Summoners have a slight edge in some encounters, but mostly ... its me or another warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now...if i was trying to take down cazel, servent of mujeef, or some of the other level 65-67 mobs that are orange....and i was getting resisted on 25- 50 % of my spells, and putting this buff on dropped it down to under 10%, then it would be worth it.  But untill you make these kinds of casting ratios the norm accross all caster classes, (which your player base would be in an uproar about..) we don't need this buff, let alone this master 2 choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please make it an int/str buff like it used to be, or revamp it to something useable.  or ffs, remove it fom our master 2 choices, and allow us to apply that m2 to a single target dd, soulflay or some such spell that we'd actually cast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KlausFlouride]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> Increases to casting skills affect your chances at preventing the enemy from outright resisting the spell completely. In effect, it's similar to the impact that offensive melee skill increases work calculating hits on an enemy. Skill increases work best when fighting enemies that are more likely to outright resist your spells, such as yellow, orange, and red higher cons. With area effect spells, it increases the chance that every target gets hit by the area effect.<BR><BR>Edit: For beneficial spells, casting skill increases will lower the chances of fizzle.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:21 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>and this worthless spell is what we get a master 2 choice in. - and i call it worthless because at 60 i hit everything.  I use the lowbie buff, not the +casting skill buff.  I raid 3-4 nights a week, and consistently come out in the top of the dps chart.  Rangers/Summoners have a slight edge in some encounters, but mostly ... its me or another warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now...if i was trying to take down cazel, servent of mujeef, or some of the other level 65-67 mobs that are orange....and i was getting resisted on 25- 50 % of my spells, and putting this buff on dropped it down to under 10%, then it would be worth it.  But untill you make these kinds of casting ratios the norm accross all caster classes, (which your player base would be in an uproar about..) we don't need this buff, let alone this master 2 choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please make it an int/str buff like it used to be, or revamp it to something useable.  or ffs, remove it fom our master 2 choices, and allow us to apply that m2 to a single target dd, soulflay or some such spell that we'd actually cast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree if you have zero interest in giving us any decent utility spells then at least give us an M2 choice that will due us some good.</DIV>

[Lockeye]

<div></div>The adding of Null Distortion and removing Dark Pillaging upgrade as a Master II choice at level 54 is already included in update 16c which should be on the public test server by monday. I'm going to verify on monday if casting skill increases are working as intended. The function of what the seal line is buffing will not change. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:52 PM</span>

[Kalel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>The adding of Null Distortion and removing Dark Pillaging upgrade as a Master II choice at level 54 is already included in update 16c which should be on the public test server by monday.<BR></STRONG></FONT><BR>I'm going to verify on monday if casting skill increases are working as intended. The function of what the seal line is buffing will not change.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:52 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Even though it was in the beta testers feedback before the x-pac was released this is about time. Please let us know about that seal line because it isnt working as intended. I see no sort of noticeable change in resists rates when using my master 2 buff. <BR>

[Raxe Sla]

<DIV>Do the devs honeslty beleive that our buff right now is as good as other classes buffs?</DIV>

[Moonspark]

<DIV>If it provided a noticable difference, it would be one of the better buffs, but currently we are not seeing that difference.</DIV>

[Max122]

<DIV>They giving us another free respec after this update then if they are making null distortion a master 2 choice.  I for one picked Seal of ebon thought when I hit 54 originally but as we all noticed it really didnt help as much as we may have thought.  So I respeced and choose dark nebula master 2 and there for I am out of respecs at the current time.  They better give us another one cause I dont want to use the one we get from having our account active for a certain amount of time for this.</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

I think casting skills work like defense skills. Though I dont have the fomula of how casting skills work, I do know how defense skills work. Before Lu13, if you have +60 defense, you have 100% chance to avoidance melee attacks of an NPC of your level. After Lu13, it's changed to give you a fixed +0.2% avoidance each defense point. So with +60 def, you just get an extra 12% avoidance. It no longer makes you 12 levels higher.

[Ykalon]

Well I'm no warlock but I DO know that + casting skill spells works. With my 57 troubador in team using Swan Song the 54coercer managed to get most of her mezzes on the carpet djinns to stick. When we redid groups with us in different groups (so that more could get credit for the quest) she only landed a few. <div></div>

[Victicu]

<P>Let me see if i understand this right...</P> <P> </P> <P>increasing casting skills helps us land spells on yellow/orange/red monsters... ok that would be great if anyone could really kill creatures that con orange and red.</P> <P>so you give warlocks a buff that is useful on three con colors... but 2 of the 3 are near immpossible to kill... makes no sense at all to me</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <P>Let me see if i understand this right...</P> <P>increasing casting skills helps us land spells on yellow/orange/red monsters... ok that would be great if anyone could really kill creatures that con orange and red.</P> <P>so you give warlocks a buff that is useful on three con colors... but 2 of the 3 are near immpossible to kill... makes no sense at all to me<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If it really works this way, it'll be very useful in high end raids because many raid bosses are orange con (like the twin dragons.) Also, in test update 16, they made int buff of different mage classes unstackable, this buff will still stack with any other buff.<BR>

[Cepheus80]

<DIV>Casting skill increases include those from items such as +ministration, subjugation, disruption also right? If thats the case, I'm assuming those type of skill increases will be looked at as well. I'm a priest with +5 extra ministration atm.  From what I've seen, this doesn't seem to do much. I still fizzle quite a bit and don't heal for anymore than what each heal spell says. +Ordination does nothing for buffs either (at least from what I've seen). I've heard from mages that +disruption skill increases do not increase their damage output (which is what is supposed to happen according to the actual skill description). From what I've experienced, and from what I've heard from others, skill inscreases still do not seem to work as they are intended to. Hopefully this will be looked into so items with these spell increases with actually be worth equiping. </DIV>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:It doesn't work like it did Pre LU13, where a +25 skill increase actually changed the effective level of the spell by 5 levels. Now it acts as a modifier, so that even with a +25 skill increase, it doesn't mean that you have an even chance at hitting things 5 levels above the caster than if they weren't using the buff. Against most even con or lower con opponents, your spells are going to land most of the time anyway, so that little room for improvement makes its benefits less perceptibe (but they're still taking effect). However against higher con targets, being able to land spells more often is relatively noticeable, but again, the post LU13 environment means that the higher the con, the more diminished the benefit (you'll see a better bonus amount for landing on yellows than high oranges and reds). <hr></blockquote> You basically confirmed the seal line is useless there. </span><span><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div>The adding of Null Distortion and removing Dark Pillaging upgrade as a Master II choice at level 54 is already included in update 16c which should be on the public test server by monday. I'm going to verify on monday if casting skill increases are working as intended. The function of what the seal line is buffing will not change. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">11-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:52 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>This is good to hear.</span><div></div>

[Tevilspek]

<P>*blink*</P> <P>Ok, so any post that doesn't say 'OMG SoE you rule my world!' now gets deleted?<BR>Nice to know we're getting listened to.<BR><BR>Ok, I'll do a nice friendly version seeing as my last two posts were apparently too outspoken and needed to be deleted /boggle..<BR><BR>In my opinion, getting rid of the Dark Pillaging line after however many weeks of DoF is a bad idea, because a lot of us have already invested a rare into Null Distortion Adept 3. And as our direct damage is pretty pathetic anyways, I know a few of us who wouldn't bother 'wasting' the pearl by upgrading it to Master 2. I sure as hell won't be.<BR><BR>How about, rather, improving Dark Pillaging to make it a raid-worthy spell, and give us a nice Master 2 upgrade of it, so that we have some of our own utility to offer. Because as it stands, we have none.<BR><BR>Is that nice and flowery enough for you Mr/s Deleter?<BR></P>

[Crono1321]

Changing training options again????  Are we getting ANOTHER respec? <div></div>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>If it really works this way, it'll be very useful in high end raids because many raid bosses are orange con (like the twin dragons.) </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, there arent many orange con raid bosses. The 2 you named are just about the only killable orange cons.</DIV>

[Raven DarkSto]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> The adding of Null Distortion and removing Dark Pillaging upgrade as a Master II choice at level 54 is already included in update 16c which should be on the public test server by monday.<BR><BR>I'm going to verify on monday if casting skill increases are working as intended. <FONT color=#ffff00>The function of what the seal line is buffing will not change</FONT>.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:52 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While this change is a welcome one, (although I know not perfect for those who have already used a pearl), it still does not address the lack of utility the warlock class has been experiencing post revamp.</P> <P>Pre-Revamp benefits:</P> <P>Power economy and replenishment, we used to be able to do sustained damage and still have power left to burn, the wizzies could burst more but would run outta steam.  This was nerfed to oblivion.  The AOEs burn my power long before anyone else in the group on sustained fights.</P> <P>Approximately equal damage to a wizard, but of a different type.  Since our DDs are so bad and casting times so long, I get out damaged by wizards and rangers especially all the time, especially on short fights.  Raid encounters may be different, but I really hate going into a raid situation and the first thing a 'raid leader' says is "NO AOE", heh kinda leaves us hurting.  (Yeah I know that an experienced raid leader would know the use of AoE's, but they aren't always that good)</P> <P>INT/STR buff, I see Lockeye's comment that it won't be changed and I find that terribly disappointing. Who the heck decided it was ours to be sacrificed in the first place?  Not for nothing, but I neither signed up for nor asked to be, (nor do I currently enjoy being the 'AoE King'.  Bunch of manure you ask me.  Should give us a chance to respect to wizzy, because evidently they get all the perks my class used to and more.  (Yes I know I could reroll one, but honestly why should I have to?)  I literally spend a week before I made the class selection at 20, just to be sure I got then on I liked best.  I looked over every spell...  way to break it off in us.</P> <P>Top tier DPS.  After the fix finally went in, the two highest DPS classes were wizards and us, like we were told it was supposed to be.  Now, except in certain situations, I get out DPSed alot by everything from bruisers to rangers.  Oh and if they pull aggro, they don't die, (at least not usually in one or two shots).  Even in group encouters I have to watch my AOE as they pull aggro bad.  Many tank classes cannot hold aggro, or get it back if I use the AOEs.  </P> <P>And now to utility...  where has ours gone, no group invis, no evac, debuffs made useless (alot of them anyways), and power regen messed up.  How about a little help here?  We were gimped badly on DPS, you guys finally fixed that after months, and then they do this to us what 4 months later?   </P> <P>Really, which warlock [Removed for Content] you guys off this badly? [Removed for Content].</P> <P>Oh well, maybe in four months or so we will cycle back up the top of the DPS chain.  I am still very fond of my warlock, he was my first character, but honestly, as of late, I play my fury more often, (Up to 40 now, he was just my alchy alt before and had never adventured before the revamp.  In fact I had never even considered a healer class, lol).</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Raven DarkStorm on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 AM</span>

[maddawg138]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:08 PM</span>

[ForgottenFoundling]

While I don't know whether the warlock + to casting skills line is working correctly or not, my troubador skill does work (+23 to skills).  With it I was able to land spells/mezzes/debuffs on red conned mobs in Poet's Palace and Terrorantula (obviously not mezzes here).  I even was able to mez Aysor's Eye to prevent a group wipe in PP at lvl 55.

[Lockeye]

<DIV>I ran tests on Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I, +19.2 to all casting skills) as a level 50 Warlock versus a level 59 Kromise (lowest possible red con) using Lightning Burst (disruption skill, magic damage/resist):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell hits without Seal: 11 out of 50</DIV> <DIV>Spell hits with Seal: 16 out of 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting skill increases in general appear to be working as intended.</DIV>

[Dasein]

Was that the average result, or a one time test? What were the ranges of success over the entire test? What about the mode and median results?

[Dajuuk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>I ran tests on Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I, +19.2 to all casting skills) as a level 50 Warlock versus a level 59 Kromise (lowest possible red con) using Lightning Burst (disruption skill, magic damage/resist):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell hits without Seal: 11 out of 50</DIV> <DIV>Spell hits with Seal: 16 out of 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting skill increases in general appear to be working as intended.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thanks for the info Lockeye.   </P> <P>Its good to know that there is a tangible effect for this buff in the right situation.   I think the biggest issue is that we were looking for the benefit in the wrong place based off of previous comments indicating that it would be more beneficial against blue and green cons.   It looks though like this spell is less useful while soloing and grouping than the + str/int sorcerer buff where a steady stream of blues/greens nets the most exp.   But on raids where your more likely to be attempting orange/red cons it would be wise to use it. </P>

[JonasBlackmore]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:Was that the average result, or a one time test? What were the ranges of success over the entire test? What about the mode and median results? <div></div><hr></blockquote>And you wonder why devs don't always try to help out and manually test everything themselves?</span><div></div>

[SunT]

<P>I have to agree with Xede...why are Warlocks even worried about utility?  Your job is to kill [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...fast.</P> <P>If I were a Warlock I would not be asking Dev to spend alot of time proving that a marginally useful buff is marginally useful...rather I would be asking them why I die every 2 minutes?  </P> <P>Ask them to Fix your aggro not your buff.</P>

[Thibor24]

<DIV>Do you really think 16 vs 11 over 50 attempts in a single test really shows anything?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is at master lv as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having 1/10 more spells land seems like it easily falls into the probable percentage of error.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the majority of posting warlocks stating they see little to no effect (your test backs this up) why not give us something more useful?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd rather use the grey spell that adds ten int and str than this one.</DIV>

[Magu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Thibor24 wrote: <div>I'd rather use the grey spell that adds ten int and str than this one.</div><hr></blockquote>Then do so. :p</span><div></div>

[Ziffna]

<P>i have a better question tho why was this test run using a pre warlock spell i don't know about the rest of the warlock community but how many of you actually could locate lighting burst in your spell book with out digging forever?  it would seem that the more appropreate test would have been to use say soul flay or nil absoulution as those spells actually would be used buy a level 50 warlock as apposed to a level 18 sorcerer ?</P> <P>Tho while I'm happy there was some effort to answer the question by the devs it doesn't seem that the question was anwered using a relevent test. I would assume that using a spell that is sooo increadably gray would inherently have a lower chance to land on a mob that was so much higher level.  But in anycase if this spell is designed to have aproxemitly an 8% improvement to resists i think that it would be better stated as such rather then xxx bonus to xxx skills honestly as it has no benifit to skills that arn't related to affecting mobs as the spells do not increase in potancy anylonger with your skill increases.</P>

[aislynn00]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thibor24 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Do you really think 16 vs 11 over 50 attempts in a single test really shows anything?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is at master lv as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having 1/10 more spells land seems like it easily falls into the probable percentage of error.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>While I agree that a probability set comprised of a mere 50 observations doesn't even come close to empirically proving anything whatsoever, the improvement in the test was actually 45% over not having the buff at all.  If that is indeed the average effect of the buff, then it's a pretty damned significant advantage, if you ask me.<BR> <p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[RapidFis]

that's great that disruption helps a tiny bit, but i think these skill effects need to be looked into and made into something that actually gives a good benefit.  I suppose Disruption is ok, but the effect states: "This is how well you increase the damage done by your spells."  That sounds to me like you would have a better chance to nuke for the maximum amount a certain spell can do.  It doesn't sound to me like they are "working as intended."  Ministration doesn't do too much since fizzles on heals rarely affect the outcome of a group surviving or a raid wiping, plus they are being reduced.  Ordination affects the fizzle rate of buffs.  No comment on that, I'm sure you can see, Lockeye, how useless that is.  Same goes for Subjugation, people don't care if they fizzle once while casting a pet. Personally, I think the skills don't do what they should do, and I hope someone else that works for eq2 has noticed this also.  This is what I think they should do: Disruption:  Gives player a better chance to hit for the maximum amount of damage for a given spell, and also gives a better chance to hit higher level mobs. Ministration: Gives playera better chance to heal for the maximum amount of a given spell, and also decreases fizzles. Ordination: This is a tough one since we want to make changes here without actually making a player's spell better, but that might be the only option, but if you increased the amount, in numbers, buffs give to players, you would need to do the same for the other +skills, ex: disruption increases actual damage on a spell (like intelligence), and ministration increases the actual heal amount on a spell. Subjugation: This should make pets 1 level higher per number.  ex: +2 subjugation at level 60 will make your pet level 62 and about crushing, slashing, piercing... they should just allow you to hit mobs at higher levels, which is what i think they do currently anyway. There's some ideas and constructive criticism, and I hope you can respond Lockeye and give some feedback again, you have been doing a great job. -Samedi of Blackburrow <div></div>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>I ran tests on Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I, +19.2 to all casting skills) as a level 50 Warlock versus a level 59 Kromise (lowest possible red con) using Lightning Burst (disruption skill, magic damage/resist):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell hits without Seal: 11 out of 50</DIV> <DIV>Spell hits with Seal: 16 out of 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting skill increases in general appear to be working as intended.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Give me a break, thats insanely weak. Five more hits with +19 to casting level?  If you factor in randomness the results between the two tests are too close to come to any kind of conclusion.</P> <P>Also, this buff is just completely worthless as no one even exp's or raids red con monsters, and to the same extent orange con monsters.  </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:38 PM</span>

[Priestbane]

<P>a 10% increase on something red?  That's not weak.  It'd be better to know orange and yellow statistics, but 10% more versus red?  From one buff?  That's decently significant.</P> <P>Unlike the thinking behind the person above who posted they'd rather use the grey 10 int buff that would give them what, 1% damage difference?  You know, assuming it landed?  Yeah, that's thinking critically.</P>

[Named]

<DIV>The fact that there are only 50 trails is what makes me skeptical about that evidence. Random luck plays too much of a factor here. I'm going to have to run some tests of my own, probally by mentoring down and trying to nuke red con mobs.</DIV>

[tiki-jiki]

Getting perhaps one less resist an encounter is a lot better than the small increase of damage +11 int will give you. <div></div>

[Thibor24]

<DIV>Well considering i dont fight reds having that 1% more damage does seem better to me, when you drop one ae your getting 1% increase against 5 mobs at a single time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its been stated by lockeye that this spell wont do much when fighting whites or blues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assuming it does less on yellows than reds i may have 5% less resists fighting yellows with this spell up (AT MASTER LEVEL). Considering cast times of 3 and 4 seconds and the fact i will never waste a master on this the plus to damage across an ae encounter seems better to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also dont forget the +str as a mage i need that to carry all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] copper.</DIV>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Godstalk wrote:<BR> <P>a 10% increase on something red?  That's not weak.  It'd be better to know orange and yellow statistics, but 10% more versus red?  From one buff?  That's decently significant.</P> <P>Unlike the thinking behind the person above who posted they'd rather use the grey 10 int buff that would give them what, 1% damage difference?  You know, assuming it landed?  Yeah, that's thinking critically.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>soo... tell me what there is to attack thats red at level 60?</P> <P>Or more importantly, tell my why the devs put in a buff that allows us to buff the group to HIT mobs at red con, 10% more often -   when they have made it clear with the mitigation changes, that we are NOT supposed to fighting mobs more than 5 levels above us?  Sure. in the right situation, a good tank with good healers can tank up to 7 levels above him.  but RED IS DEAD was the concept behind all these changes.  They wanted to narrow our hunting bands substantially.</P> <P>so tell me again, why is this spell usefull?  so we can attack and hit mobs that we aren't supposed to be fighting?  </P> <P>I've got a suggestion - take away this buff line entirely, because it's quite gamebreaking if we're so uber we can take down red cons.  Nerf us please.  Give us back an int/str buff, or to be different from wizards, how about an int+power buff.</P> <P>Now...raise the mitigation levels back up a notch so that tanks get SOME mitigation back on oranges.  </P> <P>By raising mitigation against oranges, but nerfing dps against reds, you will open up a whole lot more freedom for groups, slow down combat slightly,  and give the player base a sense of slightly more challenge. </P> <P> </P> <P>Right now, either we can take a mob, or we cant.  And we generally know within  the first 2 hits from the mb whether the tank can mitigate enough damage to tank him.  </P> <P>If this is 'working as intended'  i'd like to request that someone kindly remove the devs heads from their posteriors, because this spell is clearly part of the problem that you tried to get rid of by nerfing our hunting bands, and decreasing mitigation on players vs orange/red cons.</P> <P> </P>

[Darkcreat]

<DIV>The problem here is that the Seal line of buffs are far to situational. We need to be useful ALL the time. Not add a miniscule 10% boost on that one in a thousand encounter. The situation occurs excessively infrequently since players 99% of the time are picking/choosing what to fight.</DIV> <DIV>They've made the same mistake with the warlock class in general. Far to situational. We need spells and abilities that are useful all the time, during fights, between fights, while crafting, etc.... </DIV>

[Nerga]

<DIV>Actualy you should look at precentage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>16-11=5 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5/11~ 50%   5/16~30%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No matter how you look at it % wise its a noticable improvment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT and thats a BIG BUT,I dont remember any raid mob lvl 69.And while grinding or whatever you RARLY fight reds.So this spell is so so.I will probably respec to Null Dist M2 when we get that option.</DIV>

[Gungo]

truth be told to me it seems both sides are right. This spell is completely useless in the majority of the game. since most warlocks wont be fighting many red/orange cons to often. BUT when they do start raiding this buff seems to me to be much more significant then an int buff. Smply because most raid targets are going to be high yellow/orange whereas intelligence in a raid setting will probably near capped if not capped already for a warlock at that time. So while others can buff intellgence that would very little in that setting for them you at least then get a buff that has a tangible effect. I don't play a warlock often take this as you want. But its not a useless buff imho. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>basically considering that it seems to me this is a raid type buff.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Darkcreat]

<P>Nergal you need to recheck your math. Percentages are calculated from the total number of casts, not just the successful ones.</P> <P>16-11=5</P> <P>5/50=0.1</P> <P>0.1 = 10%</P>

[Will.]

<span><blockquote><hr>Thibor24 wrote:<div>Do you really think 16 vs 11 over 50 attempts in a single test really shows anything?</div> <div> </div> <div>This is at master lv as well.</div> <div> </div> <div>Having 1/10 more spells land seems like it easily falls into the probable percentage of error.</div> <div> </div> <div>With the majority of posting warlocks stating they see little to no effect (your test backs this up) why not give us something more useful?</div> <div> </div> <div>I'd rather use the grey spell that adds ten int and str than this one.</div><hr></blockquote></span>A) 11 of 50 vs. 16 of 50 is a 45% increase not 10%. B) 11 of 50 vs. 16 of 50 is statistically significant, i.e. not likely to happen by chance. (p<0.01) So 45% more spells land against reds, and . . . <i>"You'll see a better bonus amount for landing on yellows than high oranges and reds."</i> - Lockeye Hmm . . . sounds like a decent buff to me. -Will <div></div>

[Darkcreat]

<P>Gungo, I have to agree with you. It is a raid type buff.</P> <P>However, I would be willing to place a large sum of money on the fact that much less than 30% of the player base raids on any kind of frequent basis. By frequent I mean at least 1 a day. </P> <P>How fair is it to be given a spell that is useful in ONE encounter ONCE a week? And that's if you're in what I would consider to be the average guild.</P> <P>It seems to me that this is catering to the elite. Where as I would prefer to just be useful in general.</P>

[tharvey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkcreator wrote:<BR> <P>Nergal you need to recheck your math. Percentages are calculated from the total number of casts, not just the successful ones.</P> <P>16-11=5</P> <P>5/50=0.1</P> <P>0.1 = 10%</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That depends on what kind of percentage you are talking about, and which kind is meaningful depends on how the spell is implemented. If the spell is implemented as a flat bonus to hit with disruption spells, then yes, the 10% number is the important one. Obviously in this case the buff gets weaker and weaker as con goes down - 60% chance to hit becomes a 70% chance to hit, etc.</P> <P>However, the spell could be coded as a percentage bonus based off the chance to hit, rather than a flat bonus. Then the 45% number is more important. If the unbuffed hit percentage goes up to 50%, then under this circumstance, the buffed hit percentage would be nearly 75%.</P> <P>It's probable that testing could sort out whether the bonus is flat or scaled, and then it'd be more obvious what the buff is worth.</P> <P><BR></P>

[Will.]

<span><blockquote><hr>Darkcreator wrote:<p>Nergal you need to recheck your math. Percentages are calculated from the total number of casts, not just the successful ones.</p> <p>16-11=5</p> <p>5/50=0.1</p> <p>0.1 = 10%</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually 11 of 50 is a 22% success rate and 16 of 50 is a 32% success rate. 32% is 1.4545% of 22% or rounded, a 45% increase. Yes, .22 + .10 = .32 but that's not how a percentage increase or improvement is calculated. -Will</span><div></div>

[Dart]

<P>Hey it could be worse. You could be a Guardian, roflmo. Poor guards, if any class needs attention its that one, and they aint getting it( Between the guardian and warlock LU13 was a nightmare for me. </P> <P> </P> <P>But back on topic. The answer given about the seal line is ambiguous at best. I still see no need for this buff. Ive seen tests done with the same sample size (on this forum) where in fact damage was LOWERED while using this line. Now I will hear but but it doesnt effect damage done, yes I concur! Dont you think less ressists and less fizzles will equate to more damage done? or even roughly the same? But the test I saw (same sample size 50 with/50without seal), the over all damage was less. So alas, how is this spell usefull, if I do same or less damage without it? [Removed for Content] that Ill stick with the stupid 12 int buff from pre 20 days. atleast it has some tangable effect.</P> <P> </P> <P>/peace! and remember to stop by the guardian forum and support your meat shields) </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nerga]

<DIV>Acatuly you are very wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want to know how much more hit you land with it.You look for the % of the hits.Not from the total number of tests.</DIV> <DIV>This spell improve your hit/effectivness by 30% or 50% whatever way you wanna look at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A more extreme example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say you do a test and teh results are as follow:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2000 shots , 10hits as an average of doing this 2k test many times.</DIV> <DIV>Now you do it with the spell on ,now you get 20hits ,so is the spell good or not? By your calculation it only improve by 1%.But by the actual way you should look at it the spell improved your % to hit by 100%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nergall wrote:Blahblahblah, i'm more concerned with semantics of statistics, and how to position my statement, which no one really gives a crap about, cuz we're more concerned with the actual effect or lack of effect that this spell has on us<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Fixed</DIV>

[Darkcreat]

<P>Will</P> <P>You are correct in saying that is a 45% increase to the successes only.</P> <P>However look at the possibility of landing a spell overall. You go from a 22% chance of landing a spell (11/50), to a 32% chance of landing a spell (16/50). Thus your overall increase in the probability of successfully landing a spell is 10% (32-22=10).</P> <P>Again, you have to look at the overall picture. After all I could add 45% to 1 and I would get 1.45 which isn't a significant change if your talking about the percentage chance to hit something.</P>

[Nerga]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:08 PM</span>

[Ferous]

<P>Its a ~10% increase in hits but a ~45% increase in hits versus without it. Both the same thing but glass is half empty/glass is half-full views.</P> <P>And he said clearly the effects of this would be muted more and more by mitigations of orange and red cons so the lowest level red test actually shows you the "worst-case scenario" he could envision (assuming the highest mobs most people would ever attack at any sort of consistancy are first-level red cons). According to his earlier statements an orange con would give better numbers than he showed and a yellow con even better than that.</P> <P>Im sure he used the low-level spell for cast time and not killing the mobs so fast. Whether 50 tests is enough is up for debate but at worst it shows you the numbers he expects to see. If someone can do significantly more tests and show his numbers are off, maybe he will look again.</P> <p>Message Edited by Ferous on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 PM</span>

[Thibor24]

<DIV>Regarding the previous post by Ferous.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Read lockeye's first post on this thread, he states that + to skills work best against higher con situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the situation he tested was actually best case scenario for the spell rather than worst.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you lower the con the spell has less and less effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casts without buff = not many hits</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casts with buff = not many hits</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not many hits + Not not many hits = stupid useless spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Thibor24 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkcreator wrote:<BR> <P>Will</P> <P>You are correct in saying that is a 45% increase to the successes only.</P> <P>However look at the possibility of landing a spell overall. You go from a 22% chance of landing a spell (11/50), to a 32% chance of landing a spell (16/50). Thus your overall increase in the probability of successfully landing a spell is 10% (32-22=10).</P> <P>Again, you have to look at the overall picture. After all I could add 45% to 1 and I would get 1.45 which isn't a significant change if your talking about the percentage chance to hit something.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly my point, if it yields no tangable effect over the period of a fight long or short, what good is it?? Period! Until someone posts logs with a solid test to disprove the lack of effectiveness from this spell, then I will continue to believe it doesnt do crap. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for reference look for a post "Straight answers on seal line". Untill this is countered with solid data, then I stand by my conviction. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Put me in MT group i can buff their str by 12! ya ya bad jk, I actually end up in MT group (Amends) for the highest raid DPS to ensure agro durring MT's stifling/stunned moments.</DIV>

[Darkcreat]

<DIV>/agree with Ferous</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everything you said was the truth. I take the glass is half empty view for many reasons. But the main one is because telling people they get a 45% bonus is extremely misleading. Just like I said, adding 45% to 1 is not significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I stand by my earlier comments. The buff is situational and catered to the elite.</DIV>

[Raven DarkSto]

<P>There was no need  for a personal attack.  In case you haven't read the forum rules it is against the terms of use.  </P> <P>And I HAD another class before the revamp.  Take your pompous trolling elsewhere.</P> <p>Message Edited by Raven DarkStorm on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raven DarkStorm wrote:<BR> <P>There was no need  for a personal attack.  In case you haven't read the forum rules it is against the terms of use.  </P> <P>And I HAD another class before the revamp.  Take your pompous trolling elsewhere.</P> <P>Message Edited by Raven DarkStorm on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Although I agree there is no reason for personal attacks. But go check out the guardian forums. They would have to ban 90% of them, as they are at their wits end in frustration. They have nothing left but to lash out at gaige and others trying to tell 'them' how the guardian class should/shoudnt be balanced. That board is a mess! Its nice comming here and only seeing an occasional attack, honestly it is)

[Thibor24]

<P>I agree there is no need to get personal on this issue.</P> <P>That said im quite enjoying this discussion and am hoping someone will say something to convince me this is a useful spell.</P>

[Nerga]

<DIV>Although I will respec to Null dist I will play devils advocate's for you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmm so lets see......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Null dist will improve your DPS by what? 2-4% tops? This spell improves at 10% if you look at the minimum figure ,what other spell can soley do that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>([expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cant play devils advocats when the point is so weak,wish lockeye test was on oranges and not reds which are basicly non exsictent)</DIV>

[MilkToa]

<P>Thanks for the information Lockeye, it's good to know the spell effect is working as intended.</P> <P>From my perspective, if the results of this small sample are indicative of the actual improvement from this spell then I am satisfied. I find this spell preferable to an intelligence buff since intelligence can be boosted in many other ways and in high end encounters hitting the mob more often is more important than an extra 1 or 2% damage per hit.</P> <P> </P>

[Nerga]

<DIV>BTW dont forget this spell effects ALL casters not just us.Meaning this increase EVERY caster in your group chance to hit and thus DPS too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>INT is EASILY capped.I have hit 525int in raids while having some ghetto equip on me.If I cared about INt (which I dont) I guess I could hit 600+ in raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont forget...cap is 400 now...basicly achiveable with equip only.So stop thinking we need INT buffs so much because we dont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I had a choice between hiting 500+ int or sta/wis I wouldnt give it a second thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop thinking of how [Removed for Content] it is to have tons of INT and look at the more useful side of the stats.</DIV>

[Thibor24]

<P>So i think the conclusion is</P> <P>When soloing this spell will be of minimal value and you may get more out of the +int +str buff.</P> <P>When raiding this spell should become useful especially if you are grouped with other casters.</P> <P>To the person who said they can get 400 int just with eq, what the hell are you wearing? </P> <P>Ive got myself decked out pretty well and am still a tad under 300.</P>

[pharacyde]

I don`t know if you read other forums, but the amount of fizzles priests get is very high. It is even so high that sometimes the tank dies because of it. Tbh I have alway had that seal buff on and I never had a healer complain about a huge amount of fizzles in my group. While maybe the boost you get for damage isnt noticeable or useless since it is only noticeable on orange or better mobs, you  might consider that it realy helps other casters to have less fizzles and plain resists. If it realy helps other casters like that, I wouldnt say it is an useless spell, I would even say it is a better spell then an INT buff, <div></div>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thibor24 wrote:<BR> <P>So i think the conclusion is</P> <P>When soloing this spell will be of minimal value and you may get more out of the +int +str buff.</P> <P>When raiding this spell should become useful especially if you are grouped with other casters.</P> <P>To the person who said they can get 400 int just with eq, what the hell are you wearing? </P> <P>Ive got myself decked out pretty well and am still a tad under 300.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's amazing how many of you are down on a utility buff...  Yes, it's situational.  Yes, it will help someone besides you.  But think about it, if your "role" is to DPS (i.e. kill stuff dead quickly) anything that will reduce the percentage to be resisted by a mob is a good thing and arguably better than an int bonus which will only show up *if* the spell lands.  In addition to that, aren't your roots an important part of how you solo?  Well, they have a casting skill modifier on them.  Generally a resisted root is synonymous with debt to the warlocks in my guild.  More roots sticking = good, death/debt = bad.</P> <P>For grouping this buff helps other casters that may not be as high of a level as you contribute to dps.  Once again, killing things quicker is a good thing.</P> <P>Unfortunately, I'm not versed on exactly how many concentration buffs a warlock will have in any 15 level range, so I can't comment on whether you guys have to make a hard decision when soloing as to sacrifice this buff for something else.  But as a group buffer, I can tell you that using con. slots for what's best for the group supercedes personal dps.  It doesn't show up on a parser, but the net effect is huge.</P> <P>Oh, and a well equipped and balanced group of 6 can take out yellow and orange heroics quite easily.</P>

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ForgottenFoundling wrote:<BR> <P>Oh, and a well equipped and balanced group of 6 can take out yellow and orange heroics quite easily.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>the point is....we can do that well without the buff.  </P> <P>this buff isn't effective enough, or necessary enough to come into play.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Thibor24]

<P>I agreed that i now believe it has its uses in group and raid situations. </P> <P>However solo I'm still convinced it isnt worthy.</P> <P>Typically when solo we are not fighting orange or red or even high yellow because the resist rates even with this buff are stupidly high.</P> <P>So the buff as stated by the developer has decreased effectiveness the lower the con of the mob, when fighting solo there is minimal to no use from this spell.</P> <P>Couple that with the reports that it actually decreases dps its just not worth having up in a solo situation. IMHO </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Moonspark]

<DIV>I, also, tested this spell today on an orange con encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the spell on I hit 11/20.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the spell on I hit 16/20.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I meant to say with it on both times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The end.</DIV>

[Victicu]

<P>Listen to me PLEASE!</P> <P>NO one raids red con encounters.  There are MAYBE a handful orange con raid encounters most of which in the poet palace instance.</P> <P>This buff is USELESS!  The effect is too minimal on yellow con and lower mobs!!!</P>

[OperationsX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <P>Listen to me PLEASE!</P> <P>NO one raids red con encounters.  There are MAYBE a handful orange con raid encounters most of which in the poet palace instance.</P> <P>This buff is USELESS!  The effect is too minimal on yellow con and lower mobs!!!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Uhh you know it will be an even BETTER of a percentage vs orange and yellow con mobs right? Jez, Lockeye maybe you should have done a yellow or orange con mob cuz people just don't seem to get it...</P> <P>Especially the ones that said 11 to 15 out of 50  was just a 10% increase, <EM>what are</EM> you guys thinking?!</P> <P>I mean I don't like everything always changing so randomly and suddenly either, so I feel for you guys there, but common now - at least put out rational and logical knowledge</P><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:49 PM</span>

[Wolverine7]

The bottom line is that this is a marginally (and situationally) useful spell.  It may help a level 54 hit that big raid mob, but becomes less useful toward 60. Consider to a red con:  16 vs 11 out of 50 = 0.32 vs 0.22 hit percentage (making up some numbers, as we approach the limit of 100% to hit): vs an orange con:  0.50 vs 0.40 vs a yellow:  0.75 vs 0.65 vs a white:   0.85 vs 0.80 vs a blue:     0.90 vs 0.85 vs a green:  0.95 vs 0.90 vs a grey:    0.99 vs 0.98 Btw.. note that the Dev tested Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I) at a 19.2 modifier.  Seal of Ebon Thought (Master II) is a 27 modifier.  SoET may give a slightly better boost on reds, but as people get closer to 60 (and need to respec), their old SoDR will be just fine and nearly as good (Master 1 of the old spell should also be roughly = Adept 1 of the newer spell).  This seems to point toward upgrading something else such as Null Distortion. <div></div>

[Lockeye]

<DIV> <DIV>Wizard Master I Hand of the Tyrant, STR/INT buff of approx 50, results in an overall increase in combat and spell damage by 6.75% DPS at level 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In that test run, a hit rate of 11/50 to 16/50 <U>is a 45% increase in damage relative to not having the buff</U>. This spell also increases the chance that debuff and control spells land on the target 45% better. If you were dealing 110 DPS before the buff, you would now deal on average 160 DPS for example.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did a test run on low yellows and it yielded a 4.7% increase in hit rate. It wasn't much because spells at that con already land most of the time. The net result is a 4.7% increase in spell DPS and increase chance on landing debuffs and control spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's situations where either group buff works better than the other.</DIV></DIV>

[TheBladesCaress]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div> <div>Wizard Master I Hand of the Tyrant, STR/INT buff of approx 50, results in an overall increase in combat and spell damage by 6.75% DPS at level 50.</div> <div> </div> <div>In that test run, a hit rate of 11/50 to 16/50 <u>is a 45% increase in damage relative to not having the buff</u>. This spell also increases the chance that debuff and control spells land on the target 45% better. If you were dealing 110 DPS before the buff, you would now deal on average 160 DPS for example.</div> <div> </div> <div>I did a test run on low yellows and it yielded a 4.7% increase in hit rate. It wasn't much because spells at that con already land most of the time. The net result is a 4.7% increase in spell DPS and increase chance on landing debuffs and control spells.</div> <div> </div> <div>There's situations where either group buff works better than the other.</div></div><hr></blockquote>So Wizards get 6.7% against everything... we get 45% on reds, 4.7% on yellows and 0% on eveything else.  From a solo POV, the buff is no use, while wizards get a buff that is useful in all situations.</span><div></div>

[Moonspark]

<DIV>We don't doubt that the spell is a potentially great spell, the problem is the testing just doesn't seem like it was enough to get solid numbers.  Resists on orange and red mobs seem so completely random.  I have done many poet's palace runs with the same groups, same buffs, etc., and one run I'll be hitting the orange cons like crazy, next run I'll land two spells each mob.  It seems like this is a hard spell to prove beneficial, especially with a single test of 50 casts versus 50 casts.</DIV>

[Kalel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Wizard Master I Hand of the Tyrant, STR/INT buff of approx 50, results in an overall increase in combat and spell damage by 6.75% DPS at level 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In that test run, a hit rate of 11/50 to 16/50 <U>is a 45% increase in damage relative to not having the buff</U>. This spell also increases the chance that debuff and control spells land on the target 45% better. If you were dealing 110 DPS before the buff, you would now deal on average 160 DPS for example.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did a test run on low yellows and it yielded a 4.7% increase in hit rate. It wasn't much because spells at that con already land most of the time. The net result is a 4.7% increase in spell DPS and increase chance on landing debuffs and control spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's situations where either group buff works better than the other.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for deleting my post. Cant handle to heat stay out of the kitchen. Dont delete peoples posts because you dont see your own ineptitude.

[Thibor24]

<P>Please stop using different % in your posts its just getting people confused.</P> <P>% of damage vs not having the buff </P> <P>% of hit rate </P> <P>These are two different numbers please do not mix them in the same post.</P> <P>11 of 50 and 16 of 50 is a 10% increase in hit rate.</P> <P>Also using these numbers as hard facts is wrong as its clear from other posts that these numbers are so close together as to fall into a % of error.</P> <P>I'd like to ask at what con does this buff provide no benefit, is it against whites or greys?</P> <P>For instance if you have max disruption do you then have the best odds already for fighting whites and increasing your disruption will have no effect.</P> <P>Having one spell out of every 20 not resisted or having increased dps by a static 6.75% i will go for the dps thanks. I can always use my .5 cast time stifle on that pesky mob.</P>

[Moonspark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moonspark wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=2>Wizard:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Fist of  the Tyrant<BR>A group concentration buff Increases strength and intelligence of the party</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Illusionist:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Seal of Ingenuity</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>A group concentration buff increases intelligence and wisdom of the party</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Coercer:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Signet of Reason </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>A group augmentation that increases the power pools of the coercer's group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Conjuror:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Geotic Rune</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>A group augmentation that increases resistance to all types for the summoner's group and their pets.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Necromancer:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Teachings of the Shadow</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> A group augmentation that increases stamina and intelligence for the necromancer's group and their pets</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Warlock :</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Seal of Ebon Thought</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> A group augmentation that increases the effectiveness of all casting techniques of the warlock's group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2>Looks to me like Warlocks are getting the shaft,  on raids the raid leader would NEVER think of putting me in any group for my buffs.  Every class is supposed to add something useful to a group, Coercers might look like they get the shaft here too, but they have utility like crazy.  I understand I am a DPS class and I'm not meant to have utility, but explain to me why wizards get the intelligence and strength buff which makes them so much more useful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2>I love my warlock, but in terms of utility we really do get the shaft.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Woops Coercers add 69int to a group, missed that in the description =)</P> <P> </P>

[Raxe Sla]

<DIV>Lockeye your sample size is incredibly too small.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I ran a test and got 11 and 16 also, both times I was USING the buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having our buff only beneifits you in very specific spots and it isnt very clear how/if it even does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having a 50 point int buff benefits you all of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please provide us with the formula of how this works and some harder evidence than 100 kills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like how much does 5 extra disruption increase our changes of hitting an orange con mob?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every warlock i know uses vivid seal for the int because the rest of our seal line is complete garbage.</DIV>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In that test run, a hit rate of 11/50 to 16/50 <U>is a 45% increase in damage relative to not having the buff</U>. This spell also increases the chance that debuff and control spells land on the target 45% better. If you were dealing 110 DPS before the buff, you would now deal on average 160 DPS for example.<BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did you factor in randomness, no.  Did you take a large enough sample, no.  Is this test in any way valid, no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So warlocks can have a 45% DPS increase on <STRONG>RED CON</STRONG> mobs.... LETS GO RAID OR EXP ON RED CONS!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh wait... thats never going to happen... EVER!</DIV></DIV> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>I ran tests on Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I, +19.2 to all casting skills) as a level 50 Warlock versus a level 59 Kromise (lowest possible red con) using Lightning Burst (disruption skill, magic damage/resist):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell hits without Seal: 11 out of 50</DIV> <DIV>Spell hits with Seal: 16 out of 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting skill increases in general appear to be working as intended.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um, some questions. What was going on in those 39-34 times your spell didn't land? The Kromise just stood there? Sorry, but 5 more hits on a mob that resisted 34 other spells doesn't work in the game. You are dead before you get there.</P> <P>I'm assuming what you tested was if it was working, and that the Kromise just stood there, not reacting. So all you tested was the percent that a Master spell increases. </P> <P>But in the <EM>real</EM> game, this wouldn't mean diddly, since I don't think any mage could cast 50 (that are close to his level) spells in a row, with only 16 landing and still be alive. Because there would have to be alot of rooting, wouldn't there?</P> <P>So in reality, any bonus you get from this spell, in <EM>practical</EM> sense, is much more minor, isn't it? More like, one extra spell landing against yellow-red  mobs, more often with yellow, less often as you move up. </P> <DIV>To many classes have spells and arts that don't really come in useful, even situationally. Spells like this cheapen the game. It's fine to say, we have over X amount of spells, but only 70% of them find any real use. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every single spell and art in the game (out side of the fun spells) need to have real value in real game terms, and be useful in 40-100% of situations. Meaning that some spells will always be useful, like nukes (100%) and some spells useful about 40% of the time. As it stands, there are spells that class don't use because they are not worth it. Like wizards heat stroke line. Since it doesn't stifle anymore (come LU16), it's now just a crappy dot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since the CU was meant to make everything wonderful, all things balanced, but they aren't, it seems like the CU wasn't such the sucess. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Stavenham on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:57 PM</span>

[Straylig]

<P>As a wizard, I'd love to give you our STR modifier if I could have that Disruption modifier.  On very high end raids, and against many of the resistant mobs we come in contact with on those raids, I'd love some additional disruption.</P> <P> </P> <P>It's foolish to say that you're screwed or that the 'Devs don't care.'  It sounds to me quite the opposite....that disruption bonus is pretty sweet, and I'd love to get 'screwed' like that on a regular basis.</P>

[Thibor24]

<P>I'd just like to ask that everyone keep things civil or we will lose the attention of the developer who i would like to thank for responding to our concerns.</P> <P>There is a lot of frustration built up because we have had no word from development since this change was made in the live update 13. Even though its been posted and reposted.</P> <P>Even with 4 pages of posts nothing has actually been resolved.</P> <P>Lockeye got 11 out of 50 on a red mob without the buff.</P> <P>Plarock got 11 out of 50 on an orange mob with the buff.</P> <P>Using these numbers we have not even proven if the spell does anything! </P> <P>Thus frustration.</P>

[Named]

<DIV>A much larger sample needs to be taken, say 1000 + trials.</DIV>

[Moonspark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>I ran tests on Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I, +19.2 to all casting skills) as a level 50 Warlock versus a level 59 Kromise (lowest possible red con) using Lightning Burst (disruption skill, magic damage/resist):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell hits without Seal: 11 out of 50</DIV> <DIV>Spell hits with Seal: 16 out of 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting skill increases in general appear to be working as intended.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Blah Blah Blah, What's a tank?</P> <P>Message Edited by Stavenham on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>There, fixed it.</DIV>

[Marillion]

I'm not a warlock, or a caster for once... but i have friends who know there classes inside out. But there is one small fact that needs to pointed out, that needs zero knowledge of the classes but just a basic understanding of the current combat set up of the game.Lockeye parsed vs a RED, yes thats RED con mob.As people will know, put a group vs a heroic RED con mob, and it will eat you alive in a few seconds, as your tank has so little chance to avoid or mitigate the damage from that high a level mob (and spells will single shot a tank). As has been proved vs 65+ epics, they can not be beat currently as they autoattack for 10k damage, and there orange. So that being, the parse is pointless. As gathering the information from during the thread, the resist rate on blue, white, yellow makes the bonus to skills pointless and you'd prefer the damage bonus all of the time. This is why i'm posting, being a dirge and a troub i see little point in the skill bonus buffs we have, as we cant take on mobs where this would be useful and a buff that adds resistance, proc, or stats is alot better to use. The only time those buffs are useful is if you are lower level than your tank, so you can hit the things he's killing.

[Nere]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Straylight wrote:<BR> <P>As a wizard, I'd love to give you our STR modifier if I could have that Disruption modifier.  On very high end raids, and against many of the resistant mobs we come in contact with on those raids, I'd love some additional disruption.</P> <P> </P> <P>It's foolish to say that you're screwed or that the 'Devs don't care.'  It sounds to me quite the opposite....that disruption bonus is pretty sweet, and I'd love to get 'screwed' like that on a regular basis.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As a wizard .. you're not a warlock and have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, it does sound good. Does it work? No. It's foolish to talk about a class you don't play .. especially in a class specific forum.</P> <P>Bottom line is this spell is useless and while you're willing to give away the STR I see you're quite happy to keep the INT.</P> <P>Warlocks wouldn't mind having that either.</P>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moonspark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>I ran tests on Seal of Dark Rumination (Master I, +19.2 to all casting skills) as a level 50 Warlock versus a level 59 Kromise (lowest possible red con) using Lightning Burst (disruption skill, magic damage/resist):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell hits without Seal: 11 out of 50</DIV> <DIV>Spell hits with Seal: 16 out of 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casting skill increases in general appear to be working as intended.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Blah Blah Blah, What's a tank?</P> <P>Message Edited by Stavenham on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>There, fixed it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Don't edit peoples posts when you quote them, just respond. </P> <P>He never said he had a tank. He didn't post enough information about the test he ran. </P> <P>Even if he had a tank, that still would mean the situation he ran wasn't a real game situation. </P> <P>There, fixed Moonspark. :smileymad:</P>

[Moonspark]

<DIV>He's a dev, he most likely perma stunned the mob and nuked it to test out the spell.  There is NO need for him to be getting hit, there is no need for him to have a full group, there is no need for ANYTHING outside the buff effecting him.  That is how you test things, without outside variables effecting you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your points are moot.  There, is that a better response?</DIV>

[Straylig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashes2Flames wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As a wizard .. you're not a warlock and have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, it does sound good. Does it work? No. It's foolish to talk about a class you don't play .. especially in a class specific forum.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Bottom line is this spell is useless and while you're willing to give away the STR I see you're quite happy to keep the INT.</P> <P>Warlocks wouldn't mind having that either.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Such defensive hate coming from a class that is hands-down superior in DPS to mine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, such ignorance...  You have to remember that for every loudmouth on the messageboard that posts a gripe about something, there's about a thousand players that don't have a problem with it.  By and large, the folks that post on the messageboard are the vast vocal minority.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>'You can't always get what you want.....you get what you need...'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mandaloran]

<P>A few of you have some valid points.  It is hard to see a "huge" difference in the effect of this spell.  Without seeing the tables this spell checks against (being the resist rate as this is supposed to lower for us once the seal buff is on) it is hard to validate the usefullness of this spell, but if you think about it, you can see the difference.</P> <P>Forget for a moment the small sample size of 50 on and off and ask yourself this question, As a 60 warlock, when I the last time you can remember getting resisted on any spell more than a few times (not counting pre LU 16 updated poision resist mobs)?  I cant remember.  I keep this seal spell up at all times. Is the spell imediately noticable?  NO, but if it was +25 to skill levels would be WAY unbalanced.  Pre combat changes in LU 13, 5 points in disruption was a level of casting.  Now with focus and post LU 13 skills are checks against resist rates of spells that use that line.  It works, I have tried it on cyclops in PoF, mobs in Poets Palace, and Silent City.  Resist rate was noticable.</P> <P>Just because you dont see a "noticable" difference doesnt mean it isnt working.  </P> <P>And for the record, this spell ups all of the group members of the Warlock.  I have grouped with Straylight on several occasions and he always does more damage and has less resists when grouped with me.</P> <P>The bigest problem most of you have is that they changed this from a INT/Power spell to a skill raising spell.  Once they change the disruption as a M2 choice and make the disease spell change, I will by and large be VERY happy with my class.</P>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mandaloran wrote:  <P>And for the record, this spell ups all of the group members of the Warlock.  I have grouped with Straylight on several occasions and he always does more damage and has less resists when grouped with me.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>More proof and less empty speculations please.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Tevilspek]

<P>Lockeye, you haven't actually substantualised the fact you completely contradicted Moorgard's statement as to what the Seal line does..<BR>Sounds to me like there are two Devs saying completely opposite things in regards to if the spell should work on yellow-red or not.<BR><BR>And then using 50 unit tests, anyone who says the difference between 11/50 and 16/50 can't be cancelled out with 'chance' factor is smoking crack.<BR>How about doing 5 x 50 with and then 5 x 50 without and you'd *start* to be able to work out the factor of chance.<BR><BR>But the important question remains to be answered. Why does your test matter? What red mobs are we supposed to be able to solo and group to kill? Or even orange high-end mobs? So we have a 1% more chance to hit on yellows? A 0% chance against white?<BR>What, pray-tell, is the USE off this buff. Not these supposedly significant stats. The USE.<BR><BR>And thanks for going ahead and switching Null Dis for Dark Pillaging. Our 'utility' line just go returned to abysmal in aid of us getting a touch more of our laughable direct damage.<BR><BR>Cheers.</P>

[Straylig]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT AND PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 AM</span>

[Victicu]

<P>Straylight thanks for the flames, you are indeed clueless.</P> <DIV>This argument has nothing to do about wizard and warlock dps, thanks for bringing it up.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 PM</span>

[Victicu]

<P>Let me put it like this...</P> <P>Both characters at lvl 60</P> <P>A wizard with an int buff will always get the full benefit of his buff... from grey cons up to red cons, he always gets a steady increase in dps</P> <P>A warlock with +disruption buff will get maximum benefit at red and orange cons, and minimal effects at grey to yellow cons.</P> <P>Heres the catch... at level 60 how many red and orange cons do you fight in one night compared to yellow-grey cons?? At 60 you will fight ZERO red cons period.  MAYBE 1-2 orange cons a night if your raiding very very heavily.  So warlocks have a buff that is useful for 1-2 encounters a night out of hundreds. (i could go over a week and never fight an orange con encounters)</P> <P> </P>

[Raxe Sla]

<DIV>Straylight lets keep your deep psychological latent hate out of this discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am awaiting another response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you.</DIV>

[Straylig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <P>A wizard with an int buff will always get the full benefit of his buff... from grey cons up to red cons, he always gets a steady increase in dps</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Wow...now who's the one that's clueless.  You're assuming, of course, that the wizard isn't already at their cap...which, if they are, the int buff doesn't really do anything...  Also, to get any increase in DPS, a caster has to hit their target....which a +disruption buff would really help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <P>Heres the catch... at level 60 how many red and orange cons do you fight in one night compared to yellow-grey cons?? At 60 you will fight ZERO red cons period.  MAYBE 1-2 orange cons a night if your raiding very very heavily.  So warlocks have a buff that is useful for 1-2 encounters a night out of hundreds. (i could go over a week and never fight an orange con encounters)</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>At level 60, I primarily raid.  On the raids -I- go on, many of the encounters con orange to me.  (With a few reds thrown in)  I have to say, I could really use some +disruption to help my spells land with much more regularity.  Currently, I'm probably hitting about a 50% success rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure what you're raiding, but I'd be happy to trade buffs with you.  I'd get a lot more use out of it apparantly.<BR></DIV>

[Straylig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raxe Slade wrote:<BR> <DIV>Straylight lets keep your deep psychological latent hate out of this discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am awaiting another response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If by 'deep' you mean 'obvious' and by 'latent hate' you mean 'contempt,' then I'd agree.

[Moonspark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Straylight wrote:<BR> <P>You're crying about a spell that gives you a noticeable advantage on the same lines that the +melee and +defense skills help shape the fighter classes because you're TOO STUPID to use basic logic to understand the nature of the spell.</P> <P>You [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are pathetic.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Noticable advantage?  Are you reading anything that anyone is saying?  The advantage is NOT noticable, and that is why these threads exist and will continue to exist.  I have gone to the same zones, with the same static groups, with and without the buff and I have not noticed a difference in my spell resists, not on yellows, not on whites, not on blues, and most certainly NOT on oranges (who the hell fights reds for any reason and expects to win, btw.)  Most of my day is doing instances with yellow, white, blue and green mobs.  I fight maybe 4 orange mobs a day average.  A huge percentage of my spells land on yellow mobs, and mostly every single spell on cons lower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We understand what the "nature" of the spell is, what we do not understand is why the spell itself seems to have no significant benefit in the majority of cases.  What the hell is the point of a buff that takes up concentration if it's only going to effect 4 fights a day for me, and probably 0 fights a day for most other people?  No matter how you look at it, it is inefficient to fight orange con mobs with or without this buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S., Why was this spell nerfed before the intended effect was even tested?  It used to buff more, got nerfed down, no one knew why...and this proves even the developers didn't.  Grats us on the nerf without reason I gues? GG</DIV>

[Victicu]

Straylight please name the orange and red cons you are fighting on a nightly basis. You are not fighting red cons... if you are level 60.

[Moonspark]

<DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Star wrote:<BR> <DIV>At level 60, I primarily raid.  On the raids -I- go on, many of the encounters con orange to me.  (With a few reds thrown in)  I have to say, I could really use some +disruption to help my spells land with much more regularity.  Currently, I'm probably hitting about a 50% success rate.</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Fountain of life has orange cons, Poet's Palace the Return and the Barakah and Siyamak.  If you count Poet's Palace, the keeper of secrets and the three mobs upstairs are orange con and Astaroth's Pants.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Red con? None exist unless you guys like to punch nagafen in the face.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I doubt you're doing Fountain of Life very much currently, not really sure how many guilds are in Poet's Palace the Return...scales aren't dropping very often for Barakah and Siyamak....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Explain to me where you're raiding maybe my guild hasn't found these instances and zones.<BR></DIV></DIV>

[Victicu]

yea straylight must be in some uber raid zone no one knows about... must be nice to be able to kill red cons!! <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ahhh i checked straylights level history, he has only been 60 since oct 23... no wonder he has been raiding so many orange cons... they are orange if you are under 60 lol</DIV><p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 PM</span>

[Nerga]

<DIV>This have stoped being a proper discussion ,very sad to see that you all cant even shut your big mouth and not scare away a Dev with retarted remarks about him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a finaly note ,pletny of orange raid and heroic mobs out there.Not red but orange can resist quite abit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you all wanna see how good thsi buff really is take a few friends and test it on a servent of mudeef,this mob is usualy 67 and got resists like a <A href="mailto:bi@tch" target=_blank>bi@tch</A>. On that mob you will also see how importent debuffs are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I remember when I died once when fighting him,got resed and started nuking..couldnt land...buffed up...landed quite good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He drops nice things <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Maelwy]

<DIV>funny, i had no problem hitting him, and he didn't drop anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh well, you must have gotten the consolation prize.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Moonspark]

<DIV>They used to always drop a fabled item or two, but now they don't even drop a wooden chest most of the time.  Ten minute respawn on the encounter, did it for a good 2 1/2 hours without a single wooden chest. </DIV>

[Nerga]

<DIV>They still drop MC,and they can still give mad resist.They do seem not to consistent about that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But do try with/without buff comprasion on them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do know they drop No-Trade items.So make sure you know thier loot table and have the right class in group or at least ready to come in less then 20min for the MC to depop.</DIV>

[Korpo]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheBladesCaress wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div> <div>Wizard Master I Hand of the Tyrant, STR/INT buff of approx 50, results in an overall increase in combat and spell damage by 6.75% DPS at level 50.</div> <div> </div> <div>In that test run, a hit rate of 11/50 to 16/50 <u>is a 45% increase in damage relative to not having the buff</u>. This spell also increases the chance that debuff and control spells land on the target 45% better. If you were dealing 110 DPS before the buff, you would now deal on average 160 DPS for example.</div> <div> </div> <div>I did a test run on low yellows and it yielded a 4.7% increase in hit rate. It wasn't much because spells at that con already land most of the time. The net result is a 4.7% increase in spell DPS and increase chance on landing debuffs and control spells.</div> <div> </div> <div>There's situations where either group buff works better than the other.</div></div><hr></blockquote>So Wizards get 6.7% against everything... we get 45% on reds, 4.7% on yellows and 0% on eveything else.  From a solo POV, the buff is no use, while wizards get a buff that is useful in all situations.</span><hr></blockquote>1) Test showed a 4.7% increase in hit rate on <font color="#ffff00">low yellows</font>. There are lots of kinds of <font color="#ffff00">yellows</font>, plus lots of kinds of <font color="#ff9900">oranges</font>. I'd assume the hit rate scales between them, so it is not "45% on reds blah blah blah 0% on everything else". Also, for those arguing that they don't solo reds... see above, and don't tell me you don't solo yellows. 2) People seem to miss that this also increases three other skills besides disruption. Having extra subjugation helps your roots and stuns stick. The extra int/str from a wizard buff does not help your roots stick. Ordination (or is it ministration?) helps debuffs stick. The extra int/str from a wizard buff does not help your debuffs stick. If your debuffs stick, you are more likely to hit towards the top of the range on every nuke, and will do more damage overall. Obviously since soloers never use roots, stuns, or debuffs, and never fight anything harder than a white, this spell is pointless for soloers. 3) The extra int from a wizard buff <u>does not</u> increase their dps by <u>any</u> percentage. Arguing otherwise shows that either you're just arguing for the sake of it, or you have no clue what you're talking about. Extra int <u>decreases</u> the penalty you get for not capping int at your level, until such time that you reach the cap, then it's there to give you tiny bits of power. Int is fairly easy to cap at higher levels; I have a mishmash of gear, only one fabled, and still hit 375 or so by myself. Add a few buffers in a group and I'm well over the cap. Give me my ranged slot, I'll fill it with a 15-20 int item, and be that much closer to the cap. If I really, really, really, really want to cap my int while running around solo, I'll whip out an int/wis potion and sing from the hilltops about the extra 5-10 damage my spells do. Made up situation: Fighting a medium orange mob, we'll say that the buff results in 15% more hits than without the buff, this is between 45% (low red) and 5% (low yellow). We nuke with some nuke that does 1000 damage every time with our current int, but that with the wizzie buff we're at the cap and hit for 1067. Nuke 100 times: 40 nukes hit without our buff, and without the wizzie int buff. Total damage = 40,000 </span><span>40 nukes hit without our buff, and with the wizzie int buff. Total damage = 42,680</span> <span>46 (40 + .15 * 40) nukes hit with our buff, and without the wizzie int buff. Total damage = 46,000 Yeah, that buff sucks, I hate it.</span><div></div>

[Nere]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Straylight wrote:<BR> <P>Mando's logic is correct.</P> <P>The issue here is that you kids are just looking for any reason whatsoever to whine and cry like a pack of kindergarten rats that peed their pull-ups.</P> <P>You have more DPS than the other caster classes.  You can also apply your forte' (full encounter, multi-target DPS) to other roles (single target DPS on raids) with good enough effect to be able to meet and in many cases surpass wizards, whom are suppoed to be the caster class with the highest single-target DPS.</P> <P>You're crying about a spell that gives you a noticeable advantage on the same lines that the +melee and +defense skills help shape the fighter classes because you're TOO STUPID to use basic logic to understand the nature of the spell.</P> <P>You [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are pathetic.</P> <P>I'm pretty sure most any of the other caster classes would be willing to swap their comparable spell in this line for one that gives them a bonus to their primary casting ability.  I know I would.</P> <P>Are you all that inept?  Are you part of the growing generation of tardlings that learned to read by phonics instead of understanding the meaning of the words?  Has any and all forms of basic reading comprehension and math ability been lost to you?</P> <P>Here's a scenario.  You're a police officer.  You do your job and notice that many officers are being injured after the suspects are taken into custody.  Then...one day, your department issues handcuffs to all officers as part of your general lineup of gear.  After a while, you notice that not nearly as many officers are being injured after the suspects are being taken into custody, but instead of realizing it's because that new 'handcuff' thing is reducing the threat, you complain that they add another pound to your duty belt that could best be used by adding another clip of ammo.</P> <P>The logic has escaped you all.  </P> <P>The Devs need to swap this spell out with the Wizard's 'Fist of the Tyrant.'  You can have the silly +INT and +STR.  We'll take the +Disruption.  The boon this spell provides is obviously wasted on the lesser casters, anyway.  Let the folks with finesse' have it for a while.</P> <P>Noobs.</P> <P>Chances are....you losers always 'push' the 'pull' doors first, too.  Every time. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Press your head to the monitor, maybe you can somehow absorb this through osmosis. The spell does not work. If you were a warlock and if you had ever cast the frickin spell maybe you would have something to contribute here. Since you are neither, the only reason I can find for you trolling here is jealousy. Go work out your problems elsewhere please. There is a wizard forum for you to cry in.</DIV>

[tiki-jiki]

As a Warlock, i dont see why we are griping. I dont have a lot of uber items, but when im level 60 ill have close to a 400 int. I dont need 50 more, which i can probably get by grouping with another buffer. The seal line gives us something unique and i for one am happy we have it. <div></div>

[Moonspark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tiki-jiki wrote:<BR>As a Warlock, i dont see why we are griping. I dont have a lot of uber items, but when im level 60 ill have close to a 400 int. I dont need 50 more, which i can probably get by grouping with another buffer. The seal line gives us something unique and i for one am happy we have it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>rofl</P> <P>You won't have 400 int self buffed with non-uber items</P>

[Maelwy]

<P>tested out tonight.  with seal of ebon on (adept 1) i got about 5x the fizzles per hour than with vivid seal.  </P> <P>However, it was only on specific spells.  netherous realm adept 3, corrupt gift adept 3, and Ghastly Contract, adept 1</P> <P> </P> <P>other than that, there was no beneficial effects noted throughout the evening when i applied it.  </P> <P>There was no noticeable increase in parsed dps for me, or the rest of the group.  My dps was lower with the buff on- attributable to the increased fizzle rates on gift, and netherous realm, as well as the lower int.</P> <P>Group consisted of 60 zerker, 59 bruiser, 55 Troub, 60 defiler, 57 fury, and 60 warlock.  at one point, we had a 60 conj instead of the bruiser.</P> <P>we were in poets palace, ancients table, coin instance, and shai'ir ring event- so this did get tested on upper tier mobs, mostly yellow to orange, at endgame content levels.  I was running about 405 int when ebon seal was on, 418 when seal was on.</P> <P>without ebon seal, i have 303 disruption, 300ord 287 min, 302 subj solo.   Add 19 when buffed.    </P> <P>By all rights according to lockeyes confirmation of its intended purpose, my results should have been just the opposite tonight.  But i'm telling you, it wasnt the case.</P> <P> </P>

[Moonspark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelwys1 wrote:<BR> <P>tested out tonight.  with seal of ebon on (adept 1) i got about 5x the fizzles per hour than with vivid seal.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2>Love the numbers you supply, very ground breaking and informative.</FONT></P> <P>However, it was only on specific spells.  netherous realm adept 3, corrupt gift adept 3, and Ghastly Contract, adept 1</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2>I use those spells everytime they're up, sometimes I have the seal buff on, sometimes not...I probably get 1 fizzle a day total. (Yea, not a spreadsheet of numbers, but much more accurate than 5x the fizzles) Netherous Realm is ordination, Corrupt Gift is ordination, Ghastly Contract is Ministration...  Your ministration is low so I can see you fizzling Ghastly Contract, but I SERIOUSLY doubt this buff is causing you to fizzle MORE.  It honestly doesn't make any sense, I have all my skills capped and I so very insanely rarely get fizzles on anything, with or without the buff.  You can't fizzle a hostile spell, btw, which is why those are the spells you are fizzling on.  Perhaps your character is bugged, that's about as logical as blaming our  buff =)</FONT></P> <P>other than that, there was no beneficial effects noted throughout the evening when i applied it.  </P> <P>There was no noticeable increase in parsed dps for me, or the rest of the group.  My dps was lower with the buff on- attributable to the increased fizzle rates on gift, and netherous realm, as well as the lower int.</P> <P>Group consisted of 60 zerker, 59 bruiser, 55 Troub, 60 defiler, 57 fury, and 60 warlock.  at one point, we had a 60 conj instead of the bruiser.</P> <P>we were in poets palace, ancients table, coin instance, and shai'ir ring event- so this did get tested on upper tier mobs, mostly yellow to orange, at endgame content levels.  I was running about 405 int when ebon seal was on, 418 when seal was on.</P> <P>without ebon seal, i have 303 disruption, 300ord 287 min, 302 subj solo.   Add 19 when buffed.</P> <P> </P> <P>By all rights according to lockeyes confirmation of its intended purpose, my results should have been just the opposite tonight.  But i'm telling you, it wasnt the case.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moonspark wrote: <p>rofl</p> <p>You won't have 400 int self buffed with non-uber items</p><hr></blockquote>There are tons of treasured quest rewards that give a lot of int, plus if you get some legendary vl armor you'll get a lot as well. Reaching the cap is easy. At least i dont hope you think rare crafted is uber. Neither of these buffs is more usefull than the other. The str buff is rather useless, though it makes me carry more i guess... Personally i'd rather have more disruption since i always raid and in raids i have 550+ int, which makes my own buff useless. Well i dont really care either way. If any of you is clueless enough to think (lacking) any of these buffs is breaking your class, then whine on.</span><div></div>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moonspark wrote:<BR> <DIV>He's a dev, he most likely perma stunned the mob and nuked it to test out the spell.  There is NO need for him to be getting hit, there is no need for him to have a full group, there is no need for ANYTHING outside the buff effecting him.  That is how you test things, without outside variables effecting you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your points are moot.  There, is that a better response?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My point isn't moot. He tested a spell to see how much of a difference it would make in a situation that didn't reflect actual game play. What good is know that you can get up to 45% more spells landing on a mob that is 8 levels higher then you providing that the mob can't ever hit you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All that does it make it seem like 45% is alot. Even if this was a spell designed for raids, a level 50 tank isn't going to last long against a level 50 raid mob. So gain, this spell isn't even very situational.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and first it was, he must of had a tank, now you say, he doesn't really need to test in real conditions. Since you are changing your idea of how he tested, I guess you don't really know what your talking about. </DIV>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Stavenham wrote:<div></div> <div>My point isn't moot. He tested a spell to see how much of a difference it would make in a situation that didn't reflect actual game play. What good is know that you can get up to 45% more spells landing on a mob that is 8 levels higher then you providing that the mob can't ever hit you?</div> <hr></blockquote>Since you only need to test how spells land it doesnt matter at all how he tested it. Whether he had a tank and healer like in a normal group or permarooted the mob with some dev trick is exactly the same. The only problem you could have with that test is that he only casted 50 times.</span><div></div>

[Straylig]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST**</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 AM</span>

[Victicu]

<DIV>Straylight i'd still like to know what red con mobs you are raiding. Go ahead tell us all!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also you are not raiding oranges every night unless your are wiping to the dragons in MD every night... i doubt you are in poets palace the return... and even then it has a lockout timer... and i doubt you are raiding fountain of life every night, if so please tell us your uber eye hunting secrets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i'll feel really nice to disreguard anything you say, thanks!</DIV>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Straylight wrote:<BR> <P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST**</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hehe nice post, way to make friends :p. To be honest you dont play a walrock so how would you know what this spell does, doesnt do. </P> <P> </P> <P>-Yes we are all Kiddys, you are the only mature one on these boards</P> <P>-Oh yes we have more dps than anyone, /looks over a the Conj</P> <P>-We cry</P> <P>-We are pathetic</P> <P>-We are inept</P> <P>-Your a police occifer? can I shake your hand?</P> <P>-Our logic escapes us</P> <P>-We are noobs</P> <P>-We are loosers</P> <P>-That about sum it up for you?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Lol some people /boggle, It was worht a good laugh though thanks!</P> <p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[MilkToa]

<P>Hmmm, I thought this was suppose to be a discussion about the seal line.</P> <P> </P>

[Cuz]

No offense to anyone here, but if you feel that a spell that will make it so you will get resisted less is useless, then you're either well off, or you are "too" well off.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I mean is maybe mob resists should be upped? I mean people here are saying the never get resisted against even con mobs. I get resisted a good 10% easy with my low level casters, maybe the resist rate if skewed at higher levels?</DIV>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Straylight wrote:<BR> <P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST**</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's great when people post like this. Here you are, presenting your arguement, which mostly invovles tearing other people down. And at the same time, saying things like, "I like to get laid"</P> <P>If this is the way you respond to what people have to say, why should anyone think what you have to say is based on thoughtful response? Thanks for letting the whole forum know that you have sex. I was wondering about that. Sorry, but the fact that you have a girlfriend who has sex with you is part of why you didn't get to 60 in three days has nothing to do with the thread.</P> <P>And your telling people to relax and breath in, breath out? </P> <DIV>I'm not saying that +distruption isn't useful. I'm saying that the way it's tested is not going to give you the same results in actual game play. Meaning, test it in a real game situation and see what kinds of results you get. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I guess your to busy having sex with your girlfriend and then bragging about it to think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But congrats on your Gold Medal.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[pharacyde]

The question about the affect of the seal line was answered. If it is usefull or not is another question. Anyway for me it put some light on when to use it. <div></div>

[Stavenh]

<P>It's not a question of if the spell works, it's a question of is it useful in practical terms.</P> <P>This is his test,</P> <P>A level 50 warlock with the master version of the buff, against a level 58 mob, and casting a level 3 spell 50 times, and getting a 45% increaces in the number of times this level 3 spell landed. 16 out of 50.</P> <P>Good to know 16 hits of a level 3 spell is gonna really hurt those level 58 mobs.</P>

[Moonspark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanith_ wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moonspark wrote:<BR> <P><BR>rofl</P> <P>You won't have 400 int self buffed with non-uber items</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There are tons of treasured quest rewards that give a lot of int, plus if you get some legendary vl armor you'll get a lot as well. Reaching the cap is easy.<BR>At least i dont hope you think rare crafted is uber.<BR><BR>Neither of these buffs is more usefull than the other. The str buff is rather useless, though it makes me carry more i guess... <BR>Personally i'd rather have more disruption since i always raid and in raids i have 550+ int, which makes my own buff useless. Well i dont really care either way. If any of you is clueless enough to think (lacking) any of these buffs is breaking your class, then whine on.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hat I have has 15(5 less than rare), chest has 16(4 less than rare), shoulders 16, wrist 15, hand 18, pants 17, boots 18, two 12 dolls, 25 primary, 14 offhand (6 less than an easy to get item I already have), 15 in the belt, 10 on both wrists, 16 and 17 on rings, 15 on earring, 14 on neck and a buff from a pearl ring that gives 22.  All of that and I'm sitting at 354, to be fair at the easy to get 14 from the rares and offhand and 2 from the dolls, 370.  Hell let's even give you that 25 int belt, that's 380.</P> <P><BR></P>

[Darkcreat]

<P>Another thing that has been bothering me all night is that this buff does absolutely nothing for the melee type characters we group with. The int/str buff benefits all classes, all the time.</P> <P>Boy my Guardian friend is really going to enjoy his extra Ordination skill when he's scraping his left arm off the pavement. :p</P>

[Thibor24]

<P>It looks like we scared the dev away, it was going so well until things got personal.</P> <P>Now we probably wont hear anything for anohter two months and we still dont know if this spell even works.</P> <P> </P>

[Findara]

<span><blockquote><hr>Straylight wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Victicus7 wrote: <p>A wizard with an int buff will always get the full benefit of his buff... from grey cons up to red cons, he always gets a steady increase in dps</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Wow...now who's the one that's clueless.  You're assuming, of course, that the wizard isn't already at their cap...which, if they are, the int buff doesn't really do anything...  Also, to get any increase in DPS, a caster has to hit their target....which a +disruption buff would really help.</div> <div> </div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Victicus7 wrote: <p>Heres the catch... at level 60 how many red and orange cons do you fight in one night compared to yellow-grey cons?? At 60 you will fight ZERO red cons period.  MAYBE 1-2 orange cons a night if your raiding very very heavily.  So warlocks have a buff that is useful for 1-2 encounters a night out of hundreds. (i could go over a week and never fight an orange con encounters)</p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>At level 60, I primarily raid.  On the raids -I- go on, many of the encounters con orange to me.  (With a few reds thrown in)  I have to say, I could really use some +disruption to help my spells land with much more regularity.  Currently, I'm probably hitting about a 50% success rate.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm not sure what you're raiding, but I'd be happy to trade buffs with you.  I'd get a lot more use out of it apparantly.</div><hr></blockquote> Star I have seen every high end raid zone and I am level 60, There are 0 Red mobs, most are orange, and the high orange (67) no one can even take, they hit for 6-8K to a full tier 6 fabled tank.  Please do not act like you know what you clearly do not.  When forming caster groups I never base it around the fact that I am buffing their disruption, nor have I ever had my Seal line up, and I am Hitting the orange con mobs (even high orange) for full with debuffs on, and at a very acceptable rate.  I have done my own tests and seen maybe 1 out of 25 nukes land with seal or with out. That could also be from a roll where I hit, and not based on my disruption skill at all.  Normally on a raid I am grouped with a troub and from my knowledge they also buff disruption, putting my disruption at about 340ish (I do have some +disruption gear tossed in there as well).  Hitting the int cap is not very hard with the correct group (fury helps more than anything), but still having a + to skills that at the current do nothing seems like a wasted con slot.</span><div></div>

[Moonspark]

<DIV>The dev came in, tested it and said it wasn't changing...that's the end of it.</DIV>

[Aral]

<DIV>I am just staggered, boggled that the dev could consider that test as a significance test.  Not only does it not prove or disprove whether the spell does ANYTHING, it doesn't even give us a hint.  You may not need 1000 trials, but you need more.  There is a <EM>huge</EM> amount of variability built into SoE's "random" number generator.  Just assuming that a proportion of .32 vs .22 is significant won't cut it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In other words, he completely fails to reject the null here: We should continue to assume that this spell does absolutely nothing.  You could easily see two 50-trial tests with this much variability without no changes whatsoever.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On top of that, he tested vs. red.  Un. Believable. </DIV>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aralys wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am just staggered, boggled that the dev could consider that test as a significance test.  Not only does it not prove or disprove whether the spell does ANYTHING, it doesn't even give us a hint.  You may not need 1000 trials, but you need more.  There is a <EM>huge</EM> amount of variability built into SoE's "random" number generator.  Just assuming that a proportion of .32 vs .22 is significant won't cut it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In other words, he completely fails to reject the null here: We should continue to assume that this spell does absolutely nothing.  You could easily see two 50-trial tests with this much variability without no changes whatsoever.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On top of that, he tested vs. red.  Un. Believable.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Cuz he might not have the time to do so. This the first time I've ever seen numbers from a dev testing wise. I'd be surprised to see another. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=16579" target=_blank><SPAN>Findarato</SPAN></A><BR>Ask your troub buddy to remove the buff, you also remove yours. Kill a few, then one of you put on, then the other, and finally both. Maybe we could find some more numbers that way. If you're too busy I have a level 30 troub, and a few Warlocks in the guild. I guess I could try to get them to play there alts with me and waste some time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[K@z]

<DIV>Hi, I'll try to write some my experience :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is some time ago, had Quest Fallen from Beauty in Pillars, don't remember my level, but had Seal of Dark Rumi... masterI on. Target is to go and speak with some member of Ashen Order. He give you update to kill harpies. I go there in invis, all was yellow and orange for me. Talked to him and see named harpie with one add spawned (if I remember correctly, both was 1 arrow down), lowest orange for me. Hmm orange, but I have my uber m1 skill technique adjustment :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV>Begin with bony, nice both rooted. But from now, Cower (master1) to named-resisted-, debuff -resisted-, some DD -resisted-, last 30s of duration casted again Bony and Cower, only Cower had one success on add. Than named was free, last try with Deter and Vulian ... and than...my death. Very nice :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV>When soloing using Vivid Seal a3, in group now Seal of Ebon Thought, because have in group wizard. Don't see visible difference in using or not using.</DIV> <DIV>In group when fighting high orange or low red, was there some tries. But only effect is debt, because I rise only  casting skills, so if spells has better chance to land, the tank taunts not = dead mages and priests :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw will be free respec after LU16?</DIV>

[Tiranus62]

<div></div>Hello, First i just wanna say that i'm french so excuse me for possibles mistakes in my post, i'll do my best ! I play on Storm serveur, a Lvl 45 Warlock and here is my situation : * My stuff is just an "average" one that's mean i'm far far away from the INT cap reachable. * My spells are NOT maxed : Master 2 for the main nuk and all others in adept 1... * More, i'm NOT going to have the SoD extension, so my cap lvl will be 50. * I play in a guild with friends in groups of 2 to 6 guys (tank, heal, etc...), sometimes solo anyway. So, What i want to say is "i'm not a hardcorte gamer playing Orange/Red mobs in raid everynight" buy more simply a "simple" warlock searching for green to white when solo and same colors heroics when grouped. Let me say that i'm very happy playing this way so i wont spends hours just to find the "best stuff aviable" for me. Beside, i'm very happy with all warlock spells. I have big pleasure to play with. In this point of view, the probleme for me is : Is it better for me to use "Dark Rumination" or should i use "Vivid seal" ? (and not "Dark Rumination" VS "nothing att all") Reading this thread, i'm sure now that Dark Rumination is useless for me, as my own experience using this spell told me already. I got no choice, that grey low level speel giving me some INT is the only thing i'm able to put on with some effect. I'm very happy to think about thoses guys max-equiped who find somethink usefull in Dark Rumination. That's not my case. That's not the case for my friends. That's not the case for MOST of warlocks i talk about with. Just something more and i promise it's the end <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  : I remember an old RP game (i wont tell name and company) with spells, stuffs, etc... not MMORPG but played online in group of 6 players maxi (yes, this is about this big red devil beast). Somethink REALY NICE was the very nice offical website where we were able to find REAL EXPLANATION OF ALL SPELLS, with FULL EXPLANATIONS, DATAS, BOARDS about how works each spell (and stuff). What do i find here for EQ2 ? : ingame screenshots, sometimes showing master versions, sometimes adept 1 or 3...., list of spells with short explanation. No more. So don't be surprise when player have to ask directly to Developpers what the purpose of this spell. It's just the result of an outrageous lake off SoE communication... Have fun in game anyway. Ekenae<div></div><p>Message modifié par Tiranus62 le <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 AM</span>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moonspark wrote: <p>Hat I have has 15(5 less than rare), chest has 16(4 less than rare), shoulders 16, wrist 15, hand 18, pants 17, boots 18, two 12 dolls, 25 primary, 14 offhand (6 less than an easy to get item I already have), 15 in the belt, 10 on both wrists, 16 and 17 on rings, 15 on earring, 14 on neck and a buff from a pearl ring that gives 22.  All of that and I'm sitting at 354, to be fair at the easy to get 14 from the rares and offhand and 2 from the dolls, 370.  Hell let's even give you that 25 int belt, that's 380.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'll admit it's a little harder than i thought with standard gear. However, with 380 int the difference between that and max int isnt that big. +200 max dmg at most for ice comet, far less for other spells. With less resists (from seal) you would even that out, assuming your spell works. Having a necro, coercer or a fury (not sure about others) in the group would bring you far above max int. Thing is, the buff that's most usefull to you entirely depends on your playstyle. For raids i'd prefer a skillbonus, for soloing i guess int is more usefull. Just because it's not usefull for you doesnt make it useless for everyone and soe won't (and shouldnt) base their balance on personal wishes.  Ofcourse if the spell doesnt work like lockeye says then it's a bug that should be fixed.</span><div></div>

[Ronzul]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Will. wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Actually 11 of 50 is a 22% success rate and 16 of 50 is a 32% success rate. 32% is 1.4545% of 22% or rounded, a 45% increase. Yes, .22 + .10 = .32 but that's not how a percentage increase or improvement is calculated.<BR><BR>-Will<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>First you have to show that 5/50 is a significant increase over the noise level of the data (5 sets of 10 casts would have been more useful than 1 set of 50).  In this case I'd be willing to bet that it isn't.  And by your math, we only have to find a success rate that is low enough to make our "% increase" seem large.  So if the unbuffed rate had been 1/50 and the buffed rate had been 3/50, WOW, a 200% increase!  But what does that actually mean?  <EM>You're still doing almost no damage to the mob.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anytime you see something like "% increase", get ready for an example of how to make statistics say what you want them to say.</DIV>

[Ronzul]

Oh, and if you want this spell line to be worth casting, then make it work by reducing the target's mitigation, not just outright resist rate.  Resist rates in EQ2 are set pretty well, as evidenced by the devs' reluctance to have a buff that has any meaningful effect on them.

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Ronzul wrote:<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Will. wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Actually 11 of 50 is a 22% success rate and 16 of 50 is a 32% success rate. 32% is 1.4545% of 22% or rounded, a 45% increase. Yes, .22 + .10 = .32 but that's not how a percentage increase or improvement is calculated.<BR><BR>-Will<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>First you have to show that 5/50 is a significant increase over the noise level of the data (5 sets of 10 casts would have been more useful than 1 set of 50).  In this case I'd be willing to bet that it isn't.  And by your math, we only have to find a success rate that is low enough to make our "% increase" seem large.  So if the unbuffed rate had been 1/50 and the buffed rate had been 3/50, WOW, a 200% increase!  But what does that actually mean?  <EM>You're still doing almost no damage to the mob.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anytime you see something like "% increase", get ready for an example of how to make statistics say what you want them to say.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Nice to see you and a few others also get that this test doesn't show the reality of using it. It's basically, crap buff, which may help land a nuke every few fights, not some 45% increase in landing spells.

[Maelwy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ronzul wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Will. wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Actually 11 of 50 is a 22% success rate and 16 of 50 is a 32% success rate. 32% is 1.4545% of 22% or rounded, a 45% increase. Yes, .22 + .10 = .32 but that's not how a percentage increase or improvement is calculated.<BR><BR>-Will<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>First you have to show that 5/50 is a significant increase over the noise level of the data (5 sets of 10 casts would have been more useful than 1 set of 50).  In this case I'd be willing to bet that it isn't.  And by your math, we only have to find a success rate that is low enough to make our "% increase" seem large.  So if the unbuffed rate had been 1/50 and the buffed rate had been 3/50, WOW, a 200% increase!  But what does that actually mean?  <EM>You're still doing almost no damage to the mob.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anytime you see something like "% increase", get ready for an example of how to make statistics say what you want them to say.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Nice to see you and a few others also get that this test doesn't show the reality of using it. It's basically, crap buff, which may help land a nuke every few fights, not some 45% increase in landing spells.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2> <P>yes, i agree. </P> <P>Lockeye's test paints a rosy picture... he used one of our lowest spells, against a mob 50 some levels above the initial grant of the spell. And while at red con to the mob, so as to portray a high level of resists.</P> <P>Then putting the buff on, there is a noticeable increase in hit percentage.</P> <P>Wow, thats an effective buff, isn't it?!</P> <P>In reality, due to sony's level band changes, and mitigation, and resist changes recently, a NORMAL group of adventurers will be exp'ing on blue to yellow mobs, where the resist rate is much lower. This results in greater survivability, better exp, and a more satisfying group experience. While at end game, occasionally in instances, and raiding, we will be taking on orange encounters. Our resist rates are STILL pretty minimal, so any decrease to our resist rates are negligable.</P> <P>Now, if you get outright resists on 1 out of 50 spells whn fighting more appropriately levelled mobs, and you decrease that by 45%, you will get a resist .55 times out of 50. or just about 1 out of every 100 spells.</P> <P>I don't know about you, but i tend to only get off 3 spells or so in a normal encounter. so a buff that takes me approximately 30 encounters to see a single benefit from is not worth spending the concentration on.</P> <P>Not to mention wasting a rare, or multiple plat to get it at adept 3, or master where those kinds of resist rate changes actually occur. and i'm certainly not blowing the m2 choice on it when i can choose a spell that i will cast almost every fight.</P></FONT><BR>

[Darkcreat]

Unfortunately SOE sees everything through rose colored glasses instead of through players eyes. They see a 45% increase (even though their math/logic are flawed) and think its useful. I doubt it will change anytime soon. <DIV>I'm sure eventually (6 months down the road) they will see it for what it really is (a piece of doo doo) and do some minor change (unnoticeable) to try and improve the spell.</DIV> <DIV>So all we have to do is sit tight for the next 6 months to a year and continue using the sorceror buff from 45 levels ago. </DIV>

[pharacyde]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Darkcreator wrote:<p>Another thing that has been bothering me all night is that this buff does absolutely nothing for the melee type characters we group with. The int/str buff benefits all classes, all the time.</p> <p>Boy my Guardian friend is really going to enjoy his extra Ordination skill when he's scraping his left arm off the pavement. :p</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well SoET helps all casters, healers, hybryd classes and mages. So it helps other classes so what ? Realy ... Anyway I did some other tests with my level 40 Troub with their buff that buffs caster skills on and off. And  resist wise it realy helps. I could  hit lvl 46-47 mobs at lvl 40 pretty easily with the buff on. Without the buff I still could hit them, but I would have to retry so many times that I would run oop before the mob would be dead. Later on I took a lower level healer, he was lvl 37. Without the buff he told me he had more fizzles then with the buff. The tank even died once because he fizzled at a bad moment. So my conclusion is, that the buff works for sure.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by pharacyde on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 AM</span>

[Darkcreat]

<P>Ya, because as we all know you can survive long enough to go OOP against a mob that is 7 levels higher than you.</P> <P>What are you? A compulsive liar?</P>

[pharacyde]

troubs can chain snare ... and stun for 7sec if teh snare breaks. Anyway call me a liar I know for a fact i can do solo mobs 6-7levels above me with my troub. <div></div>

[Marillion]

Great for solo,Problem for raiding,Orange raid mobs equals dead tank unless you are lucky on the rolls, you'll probably wipe a couple of times tho.Raid mobs are immune to stun and snare, so the ability to have those spells resisted less are pointless.Bonus to casting stat to hit an orange raid mob, means you will rip first and die first as the tank can't hold agro very well, because they have there taunts resisted so much. Why? because no of our skill bonus' help there taunt ability as its a plain level check.Its all okie though, seeing as the loot drops are so poor and few and far between in 60 raid zones it all makes no difference if the spells work or not, you wont get any reward for it yet.

[VentoCurat]

<P>Just make it an INT buff. Have been in a lot of groups and I still use my vivid seal for the 10.1 (Hell Yea!)</P> <P>Also, I hope that 150 posts in a week and 4k views is enough to spawn a responce.</P>

[dmitya]

<DIV>I am still a lvl 53 Warlock so I can't deliver an opinion on whether this works or not.  I have a suggestion for method that players can test the spell to get a better range for results than the 50 cast test that everyone is critical of.  I will try this myself when I hit 54 but can't promise that I will remember to come back here and post:  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Find yellow/orange mob and chain cast roots on the mob w/ SoET and w/o SoET.  Since the spell increases all types not just disruption it should be sufficient to show a correlation with just the root spells being cast.  If this issue is of enough importance to have made 7 pages of posting then I imagine one of you will be willing to try it.  If you want to add in other spells when casting for a test just make sure that the casting type is the same for all spells used (or the associated skills are all the same)- that is another benefit of just casting roots in addition to not breaking them with other spells: same type.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am ashamed that so many of you use these forums to assert the correctness of your personal views on an issue rather than looking at it objectively and cooperating in a real inquiry as to whether the spell has a proper function.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aldebaran</DIV>