Warlock DPS & Raid Statistics

[Shard]

<DIV><FONT size=3>Hey there Folks...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I've been noticing a lot of warlock pessimism in response to the changes on test...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>It's understandable but it seems like it's mostly "in theory" logic..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Do we have lvl 50 warlocks on the test server who have raid statistics to share?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Maybe that could demystify the situation...</FONT></DIV>

[Magiocracy]

There's some comprehensive statistics on the pre-50 revamp situation hidden in this enormous thread http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=51&jump=true What we're actually missing is similar numbers from the DoF beta since it's the 50+ spells that have most of us really in a twist. There's been some anecdotal comments from people in beta, most of it negative, but no hard numbers yet. <div></div>

[Shard]

<P><FONT size=3>*nods* <BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I guess what I meant is that I'm reading a lot of negativity but it's not really backed up by any solid evidence.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Some solid evidence to prove or disprove all of these negative ideas would be great.</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>But anyhow... My thoughts are that a Warlock should not reach Wizard DPS     (in short time spans)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Warlocks are supposed to be mana efficient and as you can see, you get multiple DD's and other spells that replenish power.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>So the warlock can be consistently blasting throughout a raid where-as a wizard would have to rest... so sure.. the spells will look significantly as being lower dmg but in the long run, the warlock should out-dps the wizard.</FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Shardas on <span class=date_text>08-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:41 PM</span>

[Myzyri]

We dont reach wizards short term dps now. If you think ew do go group with a wizard on a single target mob and watch him drop ice comet on it. <div></div>

[Hardjar]

<DIV>In fact you could not be further from the truth, since all of our heavy hitters are AoE, we will be less mana efficient and OOP quicker, because in raid situations where you are generally beating on a single ^^^ 4x group mob for the majority of the fight your biggest nukes are AoE wich are 3x as expensive and you will be using them against a single mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the sad truth is you will be doing less damage then your wizard friend, but at extra mana cost!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YAY</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go SOE</DIV>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myzyri wrote:<BR>We dont reach wizards short term dps now. If you think ew do go group with a wizard on a single target mob and watch him drop ice comet on it.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And I'm willing to bet you see a big fat RESISTED coming of the top of the mob's head.  :smileysad:Honestly you guys need to stop comparing yourself to wizzys. And enough with the asking for nerfage. That new uber nuke wizzys get, Surging Tempest, is very likely a lvl 60 spell, so you need to take that into account before running around screaming that the sky is falling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Hardjar]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myzyri wrote:<BR>We dont reach wizards short term dps now. If you think ew do go group with a wizard on a single target mob and watch him drop ice comet on it.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And I'm willing to bet you see a big fat RESISTED coming of the top of the mob's head.  :smileysad:Honestly you guys need to stop comparing yourself to wizzys. And enough with the asking for nerfage. That new uber nuke wizzys get, Surging Tempest, is very likely a lvl 60 spell, so you need to take that into account before running around screaming that the sky is falling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nobody is asking for Wizzies to be nurfed in this thread? if you can find it I would love to see it,  Why wouldnt warlocks compare themselves to the other sorcerer class?  Check you reasearch and find out what level Surging Tempest is before you make half cocked coments, it is easy enough to find if you do a search.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But thanks very much for your REALLY usefull coments.</DIV>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hardjards wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myzyri wrote:<BR>We dont reach wizards short term dps now. If you think ew do go group with a wizard on a single target mob and watch him drop ice comet on it.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And I'm willing to bet you see a big fat RESISTED coming of the top of the mob's head.  :smileysad:Honestly you guys need to stop comparing yourself to wizzys. And enough with the asking for nerfage. That new uber nuke wizzys get, Surging Tempest, is very likely a lvl 60 spell, so you need to take that into account before running around screaming that the sky is falling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nobody is asking for Wizzies to be nurfed in this thread? if you can find it I would love to see it,  Why wouldnt warlocks compare themselves to the other sorcerer class?  Check you reasearch and find out what level Surging Tempest is before you make half cocked coments, it is easy enough to find if you do a search.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But thanks very much for your REALLY usefull coments.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I am very well aware that Surging Tempest is currently a lvl50 spell on beta. But has it occured to you that perhaps the devs have lowered spell levels, so that they can be tested properly? Something to podner now isn't it?</DIV>

[Weekst]

<P>yes, <FONT size=5>RESISTED </FONT><FONT size=3>happens  for us as well on mobs as warlocks but we cast debuffs enmasse prior to dropping nukes and aoe's.</FONT></P> <P>I didn't start a warlock from the beginning to end up a second rate summoner with lower dps then my wizard counterpart in the end.</P> <P>We had efficiency.</P> <P>Now we don't.</P> <P>We had great cc.</P> <P>Now we don't.</P> <P>We had multiple decent nukes.</P> <P>Now we don't.</P> <P>Do you really think a tank is going to want a weapon proc over extra hps, extra resists, a damage shield on a conc slot ? I seriously doubt it.</P> <P>Um what the hell is a random porting mob spell gonna do or even be of any use?</P> <P>We now get spells to raise our damage for about 150 points and that's with a 20 second timer and a nil crystal to boot as a master, that's crap.</P> <P>ALL training options are uselss atm for 50+.</P> <P>Mana feed is up , that is also garbage I am not a mana dumper.</P> <P>Our class is trashed thanks to whiny wizards.</P> <P>Your dam right I'm [Removed for Content] off, they screwed this up as there's only a few weeks left and little improvements now on beta.</P> <P>Ice comet shouldn't work at all on epic targets as devastation isn't supposed to either but in live it does to a small degree.</P> <P>Inefficient aoe's on single targets to get a lil more dps, swell.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Weekster on <span class=date_text>08-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 PM</span>

[Conequis]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Weekster wrote:<p>I didn't start a warlock from the beginning to end up a second rate summoner with lower dps then my wizard counterpart in the end.</p></blockquote></span><hr>First of all I agree that the DPS needs to be comperable between wizzies and warlocks, however, for the last 10 months you guys have had god like DPS on raids and wizzies have been second class to you for 10 months.I'm not calling for  nerfbat for warlocks, but if your complaining that wizzies may out DPS you then waaaaah.  Now if you're complainig about the huge boost that wizzies would get compared to warlocks, then fine, I'll agree with you there.  But if it is just a "We're not #1 DPS and wer're [Removed for Content]" then stick it.I have delt with the fact warlocks were better DPS and accepted that, it isn't that big a deal.  And if the roles are reverse where wizzies are better DPS (with warlocks being comperable as well on DPS) then there is not need to whine about that.I'm just getting sick of hearing from some warlocks about how if they aren't #1 DPS they are going to quit.  And yes, I have heard this from some  warlocks in game and the ones I talked to don't care if wizzies and warlocks are comperable on DPS, if they aren't #1 they said they'll quit.  Well as far as I am concerned on that gripe, so long.I sincerely hope that Sony fixes  the DPS and makes it more close to us (by giving you guys a better spell), or what not to make us more equal.  As far as I am concerned the only difference that should be between us is that one does poison and disease and the other does fire and ice.<span></span><div></div>

[Weekst]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=92130" target=_blank><SPAN>Conequis</SPAN></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We didn't break the classes, they were broken by the very dev. team whose in charge of this revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards are gaining devstation but in elemental form.</DIV> <DIV>Where's the warlocks equivalent to Ice Comet?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards getting seperate timer new fire nuke for 3k at app 1</DIV> <DIV>Where's warlock disease blast equivalent at app 1?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards say evac doesn't count for any utility but that is huge to those that don't have it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I've seen warlocks don't get any damage spells at level 60, can wizards say the same?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Weekster on <span class=date_text>08-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 PM</span>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr> <div>I am very well aware that Surging Tempest is currently a lvl50 spell on beta. But has it occured to you that perhaps the devs have lowered spell levels, so that they can be tested properly? Something to podner now isn't it?</div><hr></blockquote>It may be - but at the moment it's a level 50 spell so until it's changed we have to assume it'll remain a level 50 spell and work out the numbers based on that. Now as several people have already said I can live with the fact that Wizards have higher single target burst dps if we had slower, more mana efficient sustained dps, however that doesn't look like the case. Because we'll have to use massively expensive AoE spells to prop up our now dire single target damage we end up being less mana efficient than Wizards, so whatever way you look at it we loose. Plus the new Icy Wind with it's 16 sec recast gives Wizards an excellent way of maintaining sustained dps, making it superior to Devastation in a long fight So whatever way you care to look at it Warlocks got screwed good and proper - Warlocks being maybe 20% ahead in AoE dps does not compensate for us being 40% behind in single target dps. And don't get me started on those wonderful dot/pet spells the devs have graced us with <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[Nazo]

Those silly pets are like an insult to the whole player community...

[Deathspell]

You wizards act as if it was our fault that you guys were "gimped" for 10 months, lol. We did a bit more damage, had better mana preservation, but I never saw us do a +3 to +4k nuke? I never saw us mez a mob? I never saw us use evac? If you wizards say the sorcerer classes were unbalanced in the last 10 months, then now, we Warlocks have every right in this world to complain. As it now on Test, you wizards do not only get upgrades and an extra nuke, but warlocks get nerfed as well and I do mean nerfed with a fookin' sledgehammer. From what's posted on the forums, the classes are even more unbalanced then they were in the last 10 months and I think you Wizards really got some nerves to tell that things finally are like they should be. It seems you wizards cannot be happy with what you are getting on Test without bashing on the Warlocks anyway. <div></div>

[Conequis]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Weekster wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=92130"><span>Conequis</span></a></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>From what I've seen warlocks don't get any damage spells at level 60, can wizards say the same?</div><div> </div><div> <hr></div><div> </div>Well until the changes go live, noone can really say ANYTHING about the final changes for sure now can we?</blockquote></span><div></div>

[Conequis]

<span><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<span><blockquote><hr></blockquote>Warlocks being maybe 20% ahead in AoE dps does not compensate for us being 40% behind in single target dps. And don't get me started on those wonderful dot/pet spells the devs have graced us with <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Again, all you warlocks are up in arms when it is now a known fact that some spells were dropped down to lvl 50 for testing purposes. Before everyone goes crying "Nerf Wizards, increase Warlocks" How about waiting to see the final changes.  Too many peoploe are complaining about stuff that hasn't even gone live and is only setup right the way it is for testing purposes.  The fact is WE DON'T KNOW for sure what the final changes are.  For all you know you guys may have a high dmaaging spell at 60 when it goes live. I think too many people are jumping the gun when we just don't know the facts yet. </span><div></div>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Weekster wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Wizards are gaining devstation but in elemental form.</div> <div>Where's the warlocks equivalent to Ice Comet?</div> <div><font color="#ffff99">Wizard gained a nil absolution in elemental form, doing a bit more dmg but its a dot ticking over a longer period. Compared to Ice Comet, Devastation does slightly less dmg on a single target but a lot more on 2+. Along with the other 2 ae's warlocks still do more ae dmg, while wizards do more single target dmg.</font>  </div> <div>Wizards getting seperate timer new fire nuke for 3k at app 1</div> <div>Where's warlock disease blast equivalent at app 1? <font color="#ffff99">I agree, warlocks should get a good dmg spell as well.</font> </div> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Conequis]

<span><blockquote><hr>Deathspell wrote:You wizards act as if it was our fault that you guys were "gimped" for 10 months, lol. We did a bit more damage, had better mana preservation, but I never saw us do a +3 to +4k nuke? I never saw us mez a mob? I never saw us use evac? <font color="#ff0000"> A bit more dmaage?  Please you OWNED us on Raid DPS and only at lvl 50 with ice comet were we able to come ANYWHERE near you guys on Group XP DPS. </font> If you wizards say the sorcerer classes were unbalanced in the last 10 months, then now, we Warlocks have every right in this world to complain. <font color="#ff0000">I never said you guys didn't.  What I said you guys have not right to complain about is if wizards change to be #1 DPS WITH Warlocks having comperable DPS along side of it.</font> As it now on Test, you wizards do not only get upgrades and an extra nuke, but warlocks get nerfed as well and I do mean nerfed with a fookin' sledgehammer. <font color="#ff0000">We don't even know how that nuke fits in.  It has already been said that it may be our lvl 60 nuke and then it will be tied into Ice Comet most likely on the same timer.  Or it may be nerfed eventually before it goes live.  THIS IS TEST, not live.   </font> From what's posted on the forums, the classes are even more unbalanced then they were in the last 10 months and I think you Wizards really got some nerves to tell that things finally are like they should be. <font color="#ff0000">And that is a problem amny people are doing.  They are comparing the spells without taking a look at the new con system that will be in place as well.  WE don't know how the FINAL changes, when it goes live, will affect the group or solo player as a whole.  THIS IS STILL IN TESTING, not final.</font> It seems you wizards cannot be happy with what you are getting on Test without bashing on the Warlocks anyway. <font color="#ff0000">Oh B-S !  I and many others have agreed with you warlocks on many things.  To say that just shows you either have no clue what you're talking about OR you have listened to the minor few and not many of the wizards.  If you would have read my actual posts you would have seen I agree that the way the changes APPEAR to be that it seems imbalanced, but many warlocks like yourslef seem to think this is the final, going to live upgrade tomorrow, changes.  It's not. That is the main reason I will not be getting upset if something happens to the new wizards nuke or if its placed on the same timer as ice comet.  Because the simple fact is NOONE knows but the SoE team what will go live and they won't know that for sure until it gets closer to the date for the actual changes to go live. </font> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Conequis wrote:<span> <blockquote><font color="#ff0000"> If you would have read my actual posts you would have seen I agree that the way the changes APPEAR to be that it seems imbalanced, but many warlocks like yourslef seem to think this is the final, going to live upgrade tomorrow, changes.  It's not. That is the main reason I will not be getting upset if something happens to the new wizards nuke or if its placed on the same timer as ice comet.  Because the simple fact is NOONE knows but the SoE team what will go live and they won't know that for sure until it gets closer to the date for the actual changes to go live. </font> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>Exactly, since all of these changes are in progress and subject to change it is true to say that AT THE MOMENT the changes appear to be unbalancing. And if I wanted to get nitpicky about this, you can't complain if something is taken away from you that you didn't have in the first place. As you correctly point out, calls for ST to be linked to IC is not calling for Wizards to be nerfed since Wizards don't have that spell on live yet, and ultimately it's what is and will be on live is what counts.<hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Deathspell]

Conequis, my post was not against you so don't have to take too personally. <div></div>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Conequis wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deathspell wrote:<BR>You wizards act as if it was our fault that you guys were "gimped" for 10 months, lol.<BR>We did a bit more damage, had better mana preservation, but I never saw us do a +3 to +4k nuke? I never saw us mez a mob? I never saw us use evac?<BR><FONT color=#ff0000><BR>A bit more dmaage?  Please you OWNED us on Raid DPS and only at lvl 50 with ice comet were we able to come ANYWHERE near you guys on Group XP DPS.<BR></FONT><BR>If you wizards say the sorcerer classes were unbalanced in the last 10 months, then now, we Warlocks have every right in this world to complain. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I never said you guys didn't.  What I said you guys have not right to complain about is if wizards change to be #1 DPS WITH Warlocks having comperable DPS along side of it.</FONT><BR><BR>As it now on Test, you wizards do not only get upgrades and an extra nuke, but warlocks get nerfed as well and I do mean nerfed with a fookin' sledgehammer.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>We don't even know how that nuke fits in.  It has already been said that it may be our lvl 60 nuke and then it will be tied into Ice Comet most likely on the same timer.  Or it may be nerfed eventually before it goes live.  THIS IS TEST, not live.   </FONT><BR><BR>From what's posted on the forums, the classes are even more unbalanced then they were in the last 10 months and I think you Wizards really got some nerves to tell that things finally are like they should be.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>And that is a problem amny people are doing.  They are comparing the spells without taking a look at the new con system that will be in place as well.  WE don't know how the FINAL changes, when it goes live, will affect the group or solo player as a whole.  THIS IS STILL IN TESTING, not final.</FONT><BR><BR>It seems you wizards cannot be happy with what you are getting on Test without bashing on the Warlocks anyway.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Oh B-S !  I and many others have agreed with you warlocks on many things.  To say that just shows you either have no clue what you're talking about OR you have listened to the minor few and not many of the wizards.  <BR><BR>If you would have read my actual posts you would have seen I agree that the way the changes APPEAR to be that it seems imbalanced, but many warlocks like yourslef seem to think this is the final, going to live upgrade tomorrow, changes.  It's not.<BR><BR>That is the main reason I will not be getting upset if something happens to the new wizards nuke or if its placed on the same timer as ice comet.  Because the simple fact is NOONE knows but the SoE team what will go live and they won't know that for sure until it gets closer to the date for the actual changes to go live.<BR><BR><BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This wizard vs. warlock stuff is silly. The fact of the matter is that all the problems wizards have where created by SOE not by warlocks (or any other player or class). SOE could have very easlily tweaked the power usage and casting times of wizards spells. They could have also adjusted raid mob resists so that wizard spells were more effiective. Instead SOE promised to fix all the problems in a grand combat revamp (like SWG) that has yet to delivered. Unfortunately, during that time resentment and dissatisfaction have grown unabated, broken classes are still broken, and the have's are fighting with the have-not's. The revamp is also likely to create as many problems as it fixes.</P> <P>Absolutely nothing will be accomplished if we bicker amoung ourselves. SOE controls the mechanics of the game and it's only through them that any of the problems will be resolved. I understand and empathize with the situation wizards are in, SOE has done you a disservice but please don't take your frustrations out on warlocks. I understand that there needs to be balance and that means the disparity between wizards and warlocks must be removed. It should also be obvious from SOE's previous behavior that once something goes live it is very difficult to get them to fix it. That is why many  warlocks are concerned about the new spells. The spell lineup for warlocks post 50 is extremely disappointing, it's almost like warlocks are getting spells that belong to some other class. If we don't get this changed before the spells go live, warlocks will be stuck with them until the next expansion (or later). I would hope that wizards, better than most classes, would understand what that is like.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Weekst]

Also to make it clear I never said anywhere on any of my posts to nerf wizards, there is alot of disparity though because whats on beta and test<EM><STRONG> <U>atm</U></STRONG></EM> will go live very soon.

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Conequis wrote:<span><blockquote><hr><span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Again, all you warlocks are up in arms when it is now a known fact that some spells were dropped down to lvl 50 for testing purposes. </span><hr></blockquote>Hmmm, is it now a known fact that ST is in fact a level 60 spell ?  Can you  please let us know where this confirmation came from ? </span><div></div>

[Tanit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<span>Hmmm, is it now a known fact that ST is in fact a level 60 spell ?  Can you  please let us know where this confirmation came from ? </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, one of the devs said the new spells where made lvl50 for testing purposes only and will be re-leveled appropriately.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tanith_ on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 PM</span>

[Magiocracy]

Aye, just spotted that information (just got my invite today) - also that it may not be an automatic grant spell. Maybe, just maybe, SOE aren't quite so silly after all <span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span> <div></div>

[Lamprey_02]

Warlocks, quit posting stuff which includes lines like "you wizards". Wizards didn't overpower their own spells.Wizards, quit posting stuff which includes lines like "you warlocks". Warlocks didn't nerf their spells either.Everyone would do better to address any gripes they have to SOE and the flock of sheep someone there misnamed "developers". Look at the big picture. First, they had wizards stronger than warlocks. Then, they made warlocks much stronger. Now, wizards are back to being too powerful. What this says is that in the larger scheme of things, the developers (I use the term loosely, they'd probably never make it past interns in most companies) really have no clue what they want to do or how to achieve it. The best they manage is to [Removed for Content] off only a segment of their customers at a time, alternating between which segment gets the shaft to keep them all hoping their spot in the sun is coming.No reason jumping down each others' throats when we should all be jumping down SOE's throats instead. They're to blame for any problems.

[Nazo]

<P>well said...</P> <P> </P> <P>They seem to have this weird notion that people will be happy to see their classes nerfed for 10 levels then boosted for next 10 levels over the course of a year.</P> <P> </P> <DIV>SoE when will you realize that yoour marketing department is putting out expansion for 10 levels ?</DIV>