Bony Grasp Changed on Test

[madbx]

<div></div>Although not listed in the test patch message Bony Grasp has had its duration changed to 12 seconds on the Testserver -Nelib 50th Warlock Test Server <pre><<span class="start-tag">IMG</span><span class="attribute-name"> src</span>=<span class="attribute-value">"</span><span class="attribute-value">http://members.optusnet.com.au/tech/grasp.JPG</span><span class="attribute-value">"</span>> </pre> <div></div>

[madbx]

<img src="http://members.optusnet.com.au/tech/grasp.JPG"> Added SS <div></div>

[Andre]

<DIV>Huge nerf again to us warlocks. First Paralyzing Fear and now Bony Grasp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully this went not live before combatrewamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fine if they short duration time than they have all opportunities to shorten cast time and recast time aswell. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dae]

<div></div>This is going to make Splitpaw <i>interesting. </i>Other than that I hardly use it. Too long cast time in groups, soloing heroics is a waste of time and effort and when soloing single mobs frozen manacles is far more convenient.<i> </i> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Daerv on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 AM</span>

[Andre]

<DIV>Frozen Manacles are grey and not Warlock spell. BG is a warlockspell. FM is grey BG - not so fast. FM could be broken just by debuff, BG couldn't. Where is point to compare both of those spells? Point is BG is only one good root for warlock. And this one got nerfed.</DIV>

[chaos overlo]

<P>What the hell? I dont believe this. I really dont see the point how this can do any good for balancing reasons. Why does SOE always does only half of their work? When they lower the duration they should also lower the cast time and the recast. 4s Cast for a root which hold 12s! ROFL!!! Well done so far, another spell rendered useless. Thanks again for the great job. :smileymad:</P> <P>@Daerv: "...when soloing single mobs frozen manacles is far more convenient." LOL? By now I really doubt that you are a warlock. What are u talking about? You compare FM with BG? Andre stated all facts why this is bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Nothing more to add.<I><BR></I></P><p>Message Edited by chaos overload on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:15 AM</span>

[Dae]

Wow one starred for stating my play style. Very mature. Anyway. This will remove your ability to fight heroics. This is a good thing. Being able to do that was stupid. You enjoyed it while you could and now the party's over. When fighting a solo single mob do you really care if root holds? Soloing is all about speed for me. Frozen Manacles saves time and allows me to get at least a couple of spells in before the mob charges me. I have various stuns to deal with it if it gets close but they aren't usually necessary. Tanking solo mobs is easy. You can't fail to kill it before it kills you. Re-rooting and moving around wastes time. Bony Grasp also has the rather inconvenient side effect of aggroing other mobs wandering around the area you're soloing in. Root, debuff, burn, move on. Back to Splitpaw. You can still use Bony Grasp to open up with. It's advantage has been much reduced by the fact that mobs will now nuke while rooted anyway (say hello to the mass stifling other classes live with). 12 seconds is plenty of time to land an AE and burn down at least two of the mobs in the group. As it stands now I can Bony Grasp the entire group and just pick them off one by one. That's not fun or challenging. I don't even have Devastation yet. Regarding Frozen Manacles, who cares if it's grey. I use a lot of grey spells. So do other classes. The fact is it's a convenient, versatile and reliable spell. It's not a Warlock spell no. It's a sorcerer spell. Unless they add a level cap to it it will continue to be useful. <div></div>

[Andre]

<P>How ,please, can you argue that lvl 19 not class specific spell is goot opoortunity to just berfed class proprietary root?</P> <P>As it stand now warlocks have not roots that could be used after 26-27 lvl. PF is nonsens and BG is not even worst cast of cource if you not wish gain aggro to all cratures that was in radius 10m from oyurs target.</P> <P>"Good" job SoE.</P> <P>PS.I think you got onestarred not because of yours play style rather for yours desire to support this nerf wihtout any valble agruments.</P> <P> </P>

[Vanra]

<div></div>Oh....my....goodness. I literally can't believe I'm seeing this. There are very few things I would actively complain about,  but this is literally one of the worst possible spells that could be changed for us. And changed this drastically to boot. If this goes live it would dramatically alter my playing style. Bony Grasp was one of those things I could always count on.  Should this happen, Frozen Manacles, a Sorcerer spell, becomes my primary longest duration nukable root. I'm sorry, but this is unacceptable from my perspective. I truly, truly hope this does not go live. It would be devastating. Still speechless. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Vanrael on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:56 AM</span>

[chaos overlo]

<DIV>[...] I think you got onestarred not because of yours play style rather for yours desire to support this nerf wihtout any valble agruments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never understood why people supporting a nerf in the first place. Hello? Knock knock... It's your class, its us your fellow warlocks. Why the hell can anyone find anything good in such a nerf? Why do you think all of us play ur way? FM is not a reliable spell, as soon as I nuke there is a VERY good chance that it will break. Is that the way you define action and fun? I call this frustrating.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>@SOE: Fix our spells which are still broken months after the release. Fix elemental resis on mobs so the wizzis can do their dmg and STOP TOYING AROUND WITH OUR FUN IN OUR SPARETIME !!! WE PAY YOU FOR THIS F.CKING FUN! Please remember this little but remarkable fact.</DIV><p>Message Edited by chaos overload on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:00 AM</span>

[Dae]

Andrez: Not sure what you're trying to say. Are you asking how I can compare Bony Grasp to Frozen Manacles? Easy. <b>They are both perfectly good root spells and they are both still used at 50</b>, regardless of when we acquire them. They both have advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation. <b>My posts are my opinions</b>. The argument isn't meant to be viable or non-viable. That's an irrelevant consideration. I'm just saying this isn't a world ending change... How exactly is this change devastating? (beyond not being able to solo heroics any more). Soloing heroic/epic mobs - Who cares. No one should be able to solo these period. Soloing single non-heroic mob - FM, one debuff, burn, ignore it hitting you, move on. Grouping - Another 4 seconds added onto my already long time spent debuffing? Oh look the rest of the group has just taken the mob down to 50% while you were messing around. I've yet to find a time when Bony Grasp is necessary in a group. Splitpaw - This will undoubtedly be harder now. Much harder. For those who missed it I used the word "interesting" in a sarcastic manner. I still think it will be perfectly doable though. We'll just have to work harder. I'm surprised people haven't asked the following question actually... Has Ring Of Cold received the same treatment? Anyway. This is all part of the big overall revamp. <b>We don't yet know if we're receiving upgrades to compensate or anything like that</b>. By all means carry on panicking though. The question is whether you're going to let this become the end of your world and upset you. I'd rather be happy and not really care. <div></div>

[BaronVonPitviper]

<DIV>Yeeeouch. I hatess it.</DIV>

[Andre]

<P>I'll be little less chilled if this update went within "big combat rewamp" in game. But looks like this thing is a nice step from developer to push us,fellow warlocks, in sun shining of this wounderfull summer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Who cares if 9/10 never comes back?</P> <P>up to FM and BG.</P> <P>"Are you asking how I can compare Bony Grasp to Frozen Manacles? Easy. <B>They are both perfectly good root spells and they are both still used at 50</B>, regardless of when we acquire them. They both have advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation"</P> <P>What i can say to explain you such evident things? No one meant to use lvl 19 spell at 50 lvl because they have no better spell/alternative! If you prefear to use an old , outgrayed ability/spell than it is somthing wrong with you not with whole warlockclass. </P> <P> </P>

[chaos overlo]

<DIV> <P><EM><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Q: What i can say to explain you such evident things?</FONT></STRONG></EM></P> <P><STRONG><EM>A:</EM></STRONG> Nothing. I wait for the post in which he says that lightning burst is one of his favorite nukes. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I agree with you Andre. No one should be forced to use a greyed ability just to perform his/her role as a warlock. Whats next? Remove shield spells and reactive heals from the priest classes? Hey, they still got their heals, they can now have much more fun. LOL</P> <P>I still think this is the wrong way of adjusting things. Instead of downgrading one or another class they should fix the game issues which are so annoying for months.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by chaos overload on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:08 AM</span>

[Andre]

<DIV>To all protectors of this nerf hightly recommeded to read this topic. FM 5 sek duration. LOOOL.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ff66><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=19819" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=19819</A></FONT></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dae]

<div></div>You will find a lot of people use Frozen Manacles at 50. I use a lot of grey spells at 47. Painful Meditation (separate timer), Frozen Manacles (good root), Ice Spike (handy for finishing the odd HO or finishing off mobs). Bellengere's Sapping Salvo and Noxious Bolt (level 30 and 30.6) are both still used at level 50. Flashfreeze (level 29) is still useful due to Deter being weird. Venomous Runes, Boon of the Shadowed and Accord are all grey but both provide benefit. Cure and Dispell arcane both last forever. I'm curious how you can upgrade a traditional (by traditional I mean how roots were in EQ1 for the most part) root like FM anyway.In short I use all the spells at my disposal regardless of their con colour. It comes down to what you find works best for you in a given situation. You make fun of me because I use these spells? I use every tool at my disposal. No we shouldn't have to use greyed out spells because the upgrades are poor however that is how the game is (and not just for our class). You can either work with it or not.Chaos Overload says - <a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=183634"><span></span></a><i>"<strong><em>A:</em></strong> Nothing. I wait for the post in which he says that lightning burst is one of his favorite nukes."</i>Oh please... You and your best friend seem to be missing the fact that <b>I never once stated this nerf was a good thing</b>. I'm merely pointing out that it's not the end of the world. You chose to descend into childish name calling.Regarding Frozen Manacles being 0.5 duration. Whether roots are bugged on test or not the description states that it's duration is 0.5 seconds because the root comes in two parts. The damage part and the root part. The damage part lasts 0.5 seconds and is replaced by the root directly after. Watch your maintained spells next time you use FM.<b>Is this change really going to be much more than a speedbump for people?</b><i></i><div></div>

[Andre]

<DIV>Yes people use FM as well as other grey spells. But as it stands now there was a choice and SoE continue trying to cut our choices. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/jokeing on</DIV> <DIV>Sure thing if we have less spells there more likely they coulbe be balanced better, isn't it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can anyone start poll "balanced vs unbalanced warlock(put any class here)": </DIV> <DIV>balanced : </DIV> <DIV>1 nuke (always same damage or completely resist), 1 dot ( unstackable with everything),1 debuff (unstackable with everything),1 buff(unstackable with everything and taking 5 Conzentration spots).No roots because they are huge unevalueble advantage.</DIV> <DIV>No items in game that could change surviability and DPS of Warlock</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>unbalanced :</DIV> <DIV>5-6 nukes at different timers and with variety in effects, 2 - 3 DoTs some of them AoE, some buffs and debuffs stackable with everything, Huge variety of items from crafted to MYSTYCAL with big bonuses to Warlock like spellhaste,succes hit proc, drain, knockback, stun etc.</DIV> <DIV>/jokeing off</DIV>

[Soefje]

Wasn't there a discussion somewhere that in the new combat update, grey spells would not hit higher level Mobs?  I remember reading that somewhere, but I can't find it. <div></div>

[Deathspell]

I don't understand it, I love my Warlock but it seems they wanna make me stop playing... We already have so many broken spells... You cast BG on 3 mobs, cast a DOT, nuke, and the BG is already wearing off, you root one with FM, the 45s BG recast timer is still running, rest of mobs come.... you are dead. Can someone PLEASE give me a scenario where you can use BG with its new time-settings? More and more I have the feeling they hate the Warlocks, take away their soloing ability and make them into one-trick ponies (damage) in a group where they follow like headless chickens. I -sincerely- hope this stays on the Test server. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[anshar]

Oh, this is a shame. It feels like I am in a race to get to the level I can use this spell before they change it. Oh well. At this point I can only hope they cut the casting time by half, and the recast timer by half to two-thirds, and maybe the power cost by 30% or more. I think that would satisfy me. 90 power, 2 sec casting, .5 sec recovery, 15 sec recast 12 sec duration. I think that would make it quite useful, and limit the power of the spell. As of now, as it is on test, it looks like it is mainly a last ditch spell. A last ditch spell you need 4 or more seconds of notice that you need.

[weim]

<P>Excellent, Just turned my root into what i would call a stun.  </P> <P>** concerning frozen Manacles ** i think its a great spell and, of course, I still use it.  But its pretty sad that the only really good root that i have will be one that i recieved when i was not even a Warlock.  PF is not useless but its about 90% useless and not on my hotbar.</P> <P>i hope they are busy fixing problems that other classes have while they are swapping out my V8 for a Briggs and Stratton....</P> <P> </P> <P>Vishya</P> <P>44 Warlock .. Steamfont </P>

[Jethro]

<DIV>me not like.  it's the only root we have that really works.  frozen manacles is basically just a short stun, as soon as the mob is casted on it breaks.</DIV>

[Deathspell]

<div></div>I casted (adept 1) FM on some ice skeletons (green to me) in EF, I did not get a "resist" message, but FM did not hold 1 second... how about that? Hey, you know what, what IF that is a bugged screenie? What if the spell gets these uber-lame stats if you make it adept3? I mean, if that's the adept3, what's the appIV or adept 1 gonna be then? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Deathspell on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:29 AM</span>

[Ravenmi]

<P>Looks like all the roots on Test are nerfed bad from what I'm hearing.. hope Mr. Annoying "I don't care if they nerf Bony Grasp cause I still have FM", is happy now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Ravenmist on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

[SalBlu]

<DIV>I had my Ring of Cold nerfed to 12 seconds as well.  What i'm dreading is looking at my other roots, Truss, and Tether, to see if they will still hold, and if the duration is still the same.</DIV>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daerv wrote:<BR>Wow one starred for stating my play style. Very mature.<BR><BR>Anyway.<BR><BR>This will remove your ability to fight heroics. This is a good thing. Being able to do that was stupid. You enjoyed it while you could and now the party's over.<BR><BR>When fighting a solo single mob do you really care if root holds? Soloing is all about speed for me. Frozen Manacles saves time and allows me to get at least a couple of spells in before the mob charges me. I have various stuns to deal with it if it gets close but they aren't usually necessary. Tanking solo mobs is easy. You can't fail to kill it before it kills you. Re-rooting and moving around wastes time. Bony Grasp also has the rather inconvenient side effect of aggroing other mobs wandering around the area you're soloing in. Root, debuff, burn, move on.<BR><BR>Back to Splitpaw. You can still use Bony Grasp to open up with. It's advantage has been much reduced by the fact that mobs will now nuke while rooted anyway (say hello to the mass stifling other classes live with). 12 seconds is plenty of time to land an AE and burn down at least two of the mobs in the group. As it stands now I can Bony Grasp the entire group and just pick them off one by one. That's not fun or challenging. I don't even have Devastation yet.<BR><BR>Regarding Frozen Manacles, who cares if it's grey. I use a lot of grey spells. So do other classes. The fact is it's a convenient, versatile and reliable spell. It's not a Warlock spell no. It's a sorcerer spell. Unless they add a level cap to it it will continue to be useful.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As you will soon discover, the stun Flashfreeze only works on mobs level 48 or less, which sucks because there is no viable replacement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Splatterpunk28]

<DIV>If this is already in test, it WILL happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm kinda speechless, this is a huge hit to our soloing ability and ... not to scream nerf for other classes, but there are others that can solo better AS IT IS.  Will they be nerfed as well?  Or is this just for us sorcerors?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I generally play at really odd hours...this will pretty much cut out any type of decent xp I can get now.  I can rarely find groups as it is, so I've been solo'ing green heroics for ages while some of the other classes take the very few "solo" spots in the game for 45+ players.  Now they are going to be even more contested than before if all us sorcerors have no where else to go either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not feel this is a needed nerf as like I said above several classes can solo just as good, some better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh well, roots will be nerfed, our power regen items (GEBs to 5 and RoI to 7/tick), what next?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:00 AM</span>

[Dae]

Yeah it's going to suck losing Flashfreeze once I level to 48 and the mobs in Splitaw are mostly 49. Maybe they'll fix Deter in return for the nerfing of Bony Grasp. TNN is enough to prevent me dieing in most xp group situations when I draw aggro though. Deter cast time is just way too long for that purpose. Btw I'm not sure if people read but there's a thread on the Wizard board about certain mobs no longer being soloable. This is due to mobs now nuking while rooted or something. Expect to be chain stifled like everyone else in Splitpaw now. I did wonder why I'd never been done over by the Deceivers until now. Turns out it's because of rooting. My 24 Berserker has a much harder time with those mobs. Seems once I started doing the instance at 24 the mobs gained the chain stifle ability. 23 instances were fine. My original posts were probably a bit too positive sounding. I find it annoying that this has slipped through before we see the big picture of the big combat "upgrade". The fact it was also snuck in without being in the test patch notes is also pretty cheeky. I mean Sony are well known for not announcing nerfs but it's still annoying. Oh and one other thing. If we're going to be tanking somewhat more often due to this AND they remove our ability to parry as was originally planned we're certainly going to be dieing a lot more often. This change could really suck actually... Hmmm... At least Warlocks and Wizards agree for once anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <div></div>

[Lord_Xyr]

If this goes live it will be the last straw for me. I stuck it out this long waiting for things to be fixed but all SOE keeps doing is shoving the reamer further in with every patch. I'm sick of it. P.S. No, you can't have my stuff. <div></div>

[V4n]

This is a HORRIBLE change.   Consider this combined with the upcoming melee changes in which we will take much more damage.  Warlocks are about to take a huge nerf to our solo ability. Why are they changing this?  How does it improve things for anyone?  What is the point of making the game less fun to play? /boggle

[Jethro]

<DIV>Because some people are so petty and immature they take it personally when their class can't do EVERYTHING another class can do.  Lowest common denominator logic kills the game for everyone over time. </DIV>

[RandomPlay]

<P>I'm stunned.</P> <P>1. Every time in the past two months somebody posts about a broken spell, the response is "why change it now since sometime in the next century we'll be rewriting all the code for combat anyway."  But there's time to nerf.  Not a game breaking, huge exploiting emergency, just a spell that is useful. Please explain this.</P> <P>2. Stealth nerf - no patch notes. Or a bug that shouldn't be there.  In either case, Bad Dog.</P> <P>3. Over-nerf as usual.  "Gee, that spell makes warlocks too powerful (fun) - let's nerf it."  Should we <BR>a) make it slighlty less powerful and see how it works, then go further if necessary, <BR>b) balance it with all the other spells so the change doesn't break the class's playability/soloability?<BR>c) go to an extreme but compensate for it by fixing related spells or shortening cast, recast, and power relative to the new duration, or <BR>d) should we make it a spell nobody would ever use?  <BR>Why do you keep choosing "D"?</P> <P>Your attempt at balancing severely fizzles.</P> <P>Do not go live with this change as is on test currently.  It's a bad idea.</P> <P>- RP</P> <P> </P> <P>ps - I rarely solo heroics personally, but I don't deny it's possible with BG.  I do have one issue with related comments above:</P> <P>"nobody should be able to solo heroic mobs" - many classes can and do.  easily.  it's generally not worth the time, effort, and risk, but if someone is willing to risk rapid death, make each encounter take 5-10x as long, pay for extra mender trips, and buy spell upgrades to make it possible, I don't see the issue.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by RandomPlayer on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 AM</span>

[Frozen]

I don't mind how this affect my solo play. However when Im in a group it has saved me countless times. Unless they give us major detaunts (like predators)  and or other defensive capabilities I will probably not play my warlock anymore.

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>nvm</DIV><p>Message Edited by QQFatman on <span class=date_text>07-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:57 AM</span>

[Blackguard]

This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed). <div></div>

[RandomPlay]

<P>Thank you for the update.</P> <P>Glad to hear there will be other alterations, hope these include recast timer, power, and cast times.</P> <P>- RP</P>

[Tanatus]

Well good thing I leveled my warlock to lvl 50, and enjoied farming several instance but good things never lasts forether. Nerf of warlock CC abilities was expected... Well now we forced to duo same instance/named with enchanters lol our The Nukes (tm) (R) with enchanter The Mezes (tm) (R) we still will be in business

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR>Well good thing I leveled my warlock to lvl 50, and enjoied farming several instance but good things never lasts forether. Nerf of warlock CC abilities was expected... Well now we forced to duo same instance/named with enchanters lol our The Nukes (tm) (R) with enchanter The Mezes (tm) (R) we still will be in business <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>HEHE yep!!!

[Banditman]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed). <div></div><hr></blockquote> And what pray tell dear Blackguard is the difference between this and the nerf to Mystics Haze line? "Oops!  That wasn't supposed to be live yet!  Those poor Warlocks!  We must fix this now!" "Oops!  That wasn't supposed to be live yet!  Oh, wait, it's just Mystics.  Tell them to suck it up and deal." </span><div></div>

[Signal9]

<DIV>You might also wish to review those for the correct durations.  If Frozen Manacles does indeed have a half-second duration it won't be of much use at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  In clarification, it appears from another thread that not only BG has been reduced to 12 seconds, but that Frozen Manacles, or previous root (sorcerer, not even warlock level) currently has a 0.5 sec duration on Test.  If that's the case, there isn't even a replacement for those that have not received their next root yet.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Signal9 on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 AM</span>

[Dejah]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Hehe, so much for turning the new changes on/off with a flick of a switch eh?  :smileywink:</P> <P>I'm just playing with you, I realize that there is no switch.  It's actually a button.  :smileytongue:</P>

[Priestbane]

This is on TEST.  TEST.  Not live. =P

[Signal9]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Godstalk wrote:<BR>This is on TEST.  TEST.  Not live. =P <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Blackguard seems to disagree.<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, it is currently on test, not live.  How many changes that were put on test have NOT made it live with their patch?  I know of one, or two, and a couple that were adjusted before going live.  Very, VERY few things change between their appearance on test, and rolling to production.<BR>

[Nacoa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed). <div></div><hr></blockquote> And what pray tell dear Blackguard is the difference between this and the nerf to Mystics Haze line? "Oops!  That wasn't supposed to be live yet!  Those poor Warlocks!  We must fix this now!" "Oops!  That wasn't supposed to be live yet!  Oh, wait, it's just Mystics.  Tell them to suck it up and deal." </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>The haze line was intentially nerfed.  The mistake was leaving it out of the patch notes. The mistake with the sorceror (not just warlock) crowd control spells was the nerf.</span><div></div>

[Kreegan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Signal9 wrote:<BR>Yes, it is currently on test, not live.  How many changes that were put on test have NOT made it live with their patch?  I know of one, or two, and a couple that were adjusted before going live.  Very, VERY few things change between their appearance on test, and rolling to production.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Except Blackguard also said the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><STRONG>It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change </STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>So I'm guessing this is a change that will NOT go to test as part of Update 11.</DIV>

[Jan It]

<span><blockquote>Blackguard wrote:This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed). <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], this crap made me resubscribe for another month so I at least have a few days of fun with an uncrippled Bony Grasp and an unnerfed RoI. I really hope your combat revamp has a good mixture of challenge and fun, because right now my Warlock is fun and provides a good mixture of risk and reward. It´s your duty to improve it even further, don´t forget that! <div></div>

[Kven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jan Itor wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Blackguard wrote:<BR>This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], this crap made me resubscribe for another month so I at least have a few days of fun with an uncrippled Bony Grasp and an unnerfed RoI.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I really hope your combat revamp has a good mixture of challenge and fun, because right now my Warlock is fun and provides a good mixture of risk and reward. It´s your duty to improve it even further, don´t forget that!<BR></STRONG></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I assure you, they will improve on that... but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  My version of fun is a challenge.  Frustrations due to GLARING bugs are NOT fun.  But a class, even a challenging class, working w/o blatent cut&paste issues and obvious errors in the combat arts / spells / skills, is fun to me.  Your vision of fun may not match.  If they drop our DPS a bit because they feel we're too powerful... I'm totally cool with that, as long as we have OUR role.  I don't mind a hit in DPS if the game is balanced.  </P> <P>I can solo ^^ mobs multiple levels above me... for what? It's supposed to be a GROUP encounter.  As long as ALL classes can't solo it, that's awesome.  It's when 1 overpowered class * warlocks / wizards [ non-raids ] * can take those down that there's an issue.  Berserkers and other tanks can also take down heroics, not quite as high above in level as us though.  Other classes can kite.  All of this will be fixed (WE HOPE) and all will be balanced.  THAT is the fun I want.  I want balance.</P> <P>This may take awhile to achieve, but it's out there.  Everyone crying for more power and more power because someone can do this better than that...  Be constructive in your posts, give solid reasoning behind the gripes... not just WAAH'ing.  They listen and respond to well-formed, well-thought out posts 1000% more than a blatent whine w/o substantiation.</P> <DIV> 1-starred for 'teh win'.  I didn't post anything negative, nor bash anyone, yet get 1-starred.  Gotta love the system. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kvenau on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[Trathe]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nacoa wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And what pray tell dear Blackguard is the difference between this and the nerf to Mystics Haze line?<BR><BR>"Oops!  That wasn't supposed to be live yet!  Those poor Warlocks!  We must fix this now!"<BR><BR>"Oops!  That wasn't supposed to be live yet!  Oh, wait, it's just Mystics.  Tell them to suck it up and deal."<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The haze line was intentially nerfed.  The mistake was leaving it out of the patch notes.<BR>The mistake with the sorceror (not just warlock) crowd control spells was the nerf.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes and no....</P> <P>Post saying IT (Haze Nerf) was acdidentally released on Test.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=43572&page=3" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=43572&page=3</A></P> <P>Post saying opps not on test, was never tested, and opps is actually live is here.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=43572&view=by_date_ascending&page=6" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=43572&view=by_date_ascending&page=6</A></P> <P>Hey at least you get a chance to have this nerf be tested on the Test Server.  And it seems that they broke it a bit too much and it will be fixed which is a good thing.  Maybe not to the level of fixing that mages desire that remains to be seen.  At least you get a chance which I glad some one does.</P> <P>*shrug*</P>

[jaythedogg]

<font size="3"><font face="Arial">SOE, if this goes live, which I pray it doesn't, as I have put up with sooooo many class nerfs & had planned to deal with many other class nerfs, & Warlock is the only class I even remotely enjoy playing, as I get bored fast with EQ2 as it is, I will quit. <u><i><b><font color="#cc0000"><font size="7"><font face="Century">I WILL QUIT, if this goes live! </font></font></font></b></i></u><b><font color="#cc0000"><font size="7"><font face="Century"><font color="#ffff00"><font size="3"><font face="Arial">Nuff said really, I would be absolutely sickened, & I know SOE doesn't care if I quit, there are plenty of others to take my place, but with crap stacking up like station exchange, lies on top of lies, this will be the final straw, this is my favorite spell, it has saved me countless times, nerfing it means you just forced another player over the edge to WoW.</font></font></font> </font></font></font></b></font></font><div></div>

[jaythedogg]

<span><blockquote><hr>jaythedogg wrote:<font size="3"><font face="Arial">SOE, if this goes live, which I pray it doesn't, as I have put up with sooooo many class nerfs & had planned to deal with many other class nerfs, & Warlock is the only class I even remotely enjoy playing, as I get bored fast with EQ2 as it is, I will quit. <u><i><b><font color="#cc0000"><font size="7"><font face="Century">I WILL QUIT, if this goes live! </font></font></font></b></i></u><b><font color="#cc0000"><font size="7"><font face="Century"><font color="#ffff00"><font size="3"><font face="Arial">Nuff said really, I would be absolutely sickened, & I know SOE doesn't care if I quit, there are plenty of others to take my place, but with crap stacking up like station exchange, lies on top of lies, this will be the final straw, this is my favorite spell, it has saved me countless times, nerfing it means you just forced another player over the edge to WoW.</font></font></font> </font></font></font></b></font></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Haha I sound like a royal [Removed for Content], but I will quit, I know this sounds like a threat, but I am stating how much I dissaprove of this crap.</span><div></div>

[Kven]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jaythedogg wrote:<BR><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial>SOE, if this goes live, which I pray it doesn't, as I have put up with sooooo many class nerfs & had planned to deal with many other class nerfs, & Warlock is the only class I even remotely enjoy playing, as I get bored fast with EQ2 as it is, I will quit.<BR><BR><U><I><B><FONT color=#cc0000><FONT size=7><FONT face=Century>I WILL QUIT, if this goes live!<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></B></I></U><B><FONT color=#cc0000><FONT size=7><FONT face=Century><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial>Nuff said really, I would be absolutely sickened, & I know SOE doesn't care if I quit, there are plenty of others to take my place, but with crap stacking up like station exchange, lies on top of lies, this will be the final straw, this is my favorite spell, it has saved me countless times, nerfing it means you just forced another player over the edge to WoW.</FONT></FONT></FONT><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></B></FONT></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Now there's a mature response.  Just go now to save yourself headache from future changes.  Spamming the boards with threats to quit ( most of those are still here, imagine that ) helps what?  It does get you flamed though.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a warlock as well, and I think bony grasp / ring of cold IS currently overpowered.  I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do I think the high power cost, 4 second cast, and 45s refresh should stay if this were to be changed to 12s? Heck no.  I would never use it, but a 1-2s cast time, and 20-25s refresh would be more understandable [ and lower power cost ].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm absolutely sickened by your response to be quite honest.  You embarass the rest of the warlock community [those of us that are reasonable / mature] with kneejerk responses like that.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short, please just go now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Splatterpunk28]

<P>All I can say is that I'm glad this will not come out until the entire combat/spell revamp.</P> <P>And for everyone else that is going to freak out over it, you have to realize that we don't anything about what the revamp will look like.  Yes, one of our most useful spells in solo'ing will be nerfed.  But what else will we gain?  What will others lose and gain?</P> <P>We don't know.  Let's just move on and hope that it's better planned than anything else SOE has rolled out.  :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Atd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jaythedogg wrote:<BR><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial>SOE, if this goes live, which I pray it doesn't, as I have put up with sooooo many class nerfs & had planned to deal with many other class nerfs, & Warlock is the only class I even remotely enjoy playing, as I get bored fast with EQ2 as it is, I will quit.<BR><BR><U><I><B><FONT color=#cc0000><FONT size=7><FONT face=Century>I WILL QUIT, if this goes live!<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></B></I></U><B><FONT color=#cc0000><FONT size=7><FONT face=Century><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial>Nuff said really, I would be absolutely sickened, & I know SOE doesn't care if I quit, there are plenty of others to take my place, but with crap stacking up like station exchange, lies on top of lies, this will be the final straw, this is my favorite spell, it has saved me countless times, nerfing it means you just forced another player over the edge to WoW.</FONT></FONT></FONT><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></B></FONT></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dude posts like this do no good for you or anyone else and makes the whole Warlock communite look bad.</P> <P>Am I happy about this? No</P> <P>Will I quit because of this? No</P> <P>Those of us that play a Warlock / Wizzard do so because we love the class we play and we may have our differences but we are not QUITERS!</P> <P>Please post crap like this in the newbie area that is where it belongs</P> <P>Chipper Bogglecog 45 Warlock</P> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3></FONT></DIV>

[SaintJere]

i have been pushing for a nerf to Bony Grasp and Ring of Cold for ages.  this is not the change i would have chosen, but i think we are all forgetting that this change is being taken out of context.  it is intended to be part of a larger overall change and it is not accurate to view it without the other changes as well. Bony Grasp and it's wizard counterpart Ring of Cold are the two most broken spells in the game.  they single handedly eliminate the need for all other classes in any non raid situation.  Every time a warlock solos Tundra Jack and his Bear or a wizard solos a defender of thyr at level 45 it is 100% because of these two spells.  they are a MASSIVELY negative influence on the game and a change to them is absolutely essential to preserve intergrity in the game's balance. YT, Tyrant,  50 warlock.  Unrest. <div></div>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SaintJeremy wrote:<BR>i have been pushing for a nerf to Bony Grasp and Ring of Cold for ages.  this is not the change i would have chosen, but i think we are all forgetting that this change is being taken out of context.  it is intended to be part of a larger overall change and it is not accurate to view it without the other changes as well. <BR><BR>Bony Grasp and it's wizard counterpart Ring of Cold are the two most broken spells in the game.  they single handedly eliminate the need for all other classes in any non raid situation.  Every time a warlock solos Tundra Jack and his Bear or a wizard solos a defender of thyr at level 45 it is 100% because of these two spells.  they are a MASSIVELY negative influence on the game and a change to them is absolutely essential to preserve intergrity in the game's balance.<BR><BR>YT,<BR><BR>Tyrant,  50 warlock.  Unrest.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>There are at least 6 classes that use to be able to solo Tundra Jack....   including a few scouting classes.  Wizard or Warlock get near they are dead in 1 hit from such a mob....!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Only the best can do it.... and yes when they do attemp it... Bony Grasp is 1 of the 12 spells they use on him.  This is hardy a benchmark for illistrating how overpowered a spell is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[jaythedogg]

<span><blockquote><hr>Erowid wrote: <blockquote> <hr> SaintJeremy wrote:i have been pushing for a nerf to Bony Grasp and Ring of Cold for ages.  this is not the change i would have chosen, but i think we are all forgetting that this change is being taken out of context.  it is intended to be part of a larger overall change and it is not accurate to view it without the other changes as well. Bony Grasp and it's wizard counterpart Ring of Cold are the two most broken spells in the game.  they single handedly eliminate the need for all other classes in any non raid situation.  Every time a warlock solos Tundra Jack and his Bear or a wizard solos a defender of thyr at level 45 it is 100% because of these two spells.  they are a MASSIVELY negative influence on the game and a change to them is absolutely essential to preserve intergrity in the game's balance.YT,Tyrant,  50 warlock.  Unrest. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div><font color="#33ccff">There are at least 6 classes that use to be able to solo Tundra Jack....   including a few scouting classes.  Wizard or Warlock get near they are dead in 1 hit from such a mob....!</font></div> <div><font color="#33ccff"></font> </div> <div><font color="#33ccff">Only the best can do it.... and yes when they do attemp it... Bony Grasp is 1 of the 12 spells they use on him.  This is hardy a benchmark for illistrating how overpowered a spell is.</font></div> <div><font color="#33ccff"></font> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>AMEN! Also, I really couldn't give a ratonga's [Removed for Content] if you guys think I am being childish or whatnot, if you read my post instead of JUST the red text, you would have seen WHY I am saying I will quit over this... Quit skimming, & learn to think before you post.</span><div></div>

[Banza]

<P>Blackguard, worst...Moorgard...impression...ever.  It 's more like this:</P> <P>"Yes, we could have waited and bundled this fix along with the overall changes to combat and spells. But the fact of the matter is that the change was made, and in so doing eliminates one way in which encounters are broken....</P> <P>Again, I'm sorry for the manner this came about in that the change went live sooner than expected. But broken stuff needs to be fixed, and whether it happened last week or tomorrow as part of Live Update #7, these spells were going to be changed."</P> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=43572&page=6" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=43572&page=6</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(this was posted in fun<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Atd]

<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>AMEN!<BR><BR>Also, I really couldn't give a ratonga's [Removed for Content] if you guys think I am being childish or whatnot, if you read my post instead of JUST the red text, you would have seen WHY I am saying I will quit over this...<BR><BR>Quit skimming, & learn to think before you post.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I read your post and all I see is a quiter that has nothing positive to say or anything to say to help this community.</P> <P>Will you post a " I Quit " post every time something is going to be changed?</P> <P>I love my warlock and I love BG but if it's nerfed I'll learn to play with out it just like I did for the 39 levels I played without it.<BR></P>

[jaythedogg]

No, I played to 40 FOR Bony Grasp, as 40 is when we start to come into our true power... No, you DIDN'T read my whole post, as I said this would be the final straw that broke the camel's back, as they have done many things in the past that I have just dealt with, & if they take away the one big spell that I truly cherish, then I have no more reasons to play a Warlock, & if I don't play my Warlock, then I don't want to play any other class, as I have tried & don't like fighters, scouts, or even priests... Besides, if I do quit, this would be a good time to go revisit EQ,as the Ubi owned servers are going to all merge into Antonious Bayle & there will be a large server pop once again, hence, more raiding, & a reason to drag my cleric out of retirement! <div></div>

[FelixDomesticus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed). <div></div><hr></blockquote>Excellent. When you did EXACTLY same mistake with mystic haze line we got answer "It gets fixed in healer/combat patch and because of that we will not change it back". We have waited for that cursed patch for 2.5 MONTHS now as totally broken class and then you do this! HOW ABOUT A FAIR PLAY FOR A CHANGE??????</span><div></div>

[FelixDomesticus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nacoa wrote:<span>The haze line was intentially nerfed.  The mistake was leaving it out of the patch notes. The mistake with the sorceror (not just warlock) crowd control spells was the nerf.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Incorrect. He admitted that it was a mistake that went LIVE before it even landed to TEST server. Also he admitted that file that caused the change was supposed to come in healer/combat patch, not before. They just made that official change by adding it LATER to patch logs.</span><div></div>

[Dae]

What on earth does this have to do with Warlocks? Don't you have your own forum to whine and argue on? <div></div>

[FelixDomesticus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Daerv wrote:What on earth does this have to do with Warlocks? Don't you have your own forum to whine and argue on? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Directly with warlocks - nothing. Blackguard just managed to prove that SOE does have pet classes and that they do not treat all classes equally. And yes, we do have our own forums where Blackguard never posts. Only SOE person I have seen there is Faarwolf and even she only when some thread gets too heated for SOE and they lock/remove it.</span><div></div>

[Aurorelle]

<DIV>***</DIV> <DIV>What on earth does this have to do with Warlocks? Don't you have your own forum to whine and argue on?<BR>***</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 days ago the men in black uniforms came in the night and took away my neighbour on the left. The rest of us said nothing, it wasn't our problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday the men in black uniforms came and took away my neighbour on the right. I said nothing. Wasn;t my problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now there is just me left. I can see the men in black uniforms coming down the road. I wonder who they are coming for tonight.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>seriously, people are entitled to post on relevant issues and the comparison is fair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Broadly speaking I agree with the view that BG was overpowered, mostly by its long duration and unbreakable nature. Personally I'd rather see it keep the duration but become breakable, and be changed to an encounter root not an AE. As it stands a warlock can cast BG followed by devastaion and laugh as an entire encounter dies. It looks great but its too powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also feel that it gets tiring to see them nerf without ever fixing broken spells that are broken and have been broken for ages. It would feel better if they put in a positive fix at least every time they put in a nerf. Both are needed but they seem to have the attitude that fixing overpowered is critical and fixing underpowered or useless is a low priority issue. They are wrong, as underpowered classes are 'unfun' and people leave the game. Thats why WoW has 2 million subscribers and EQ2 has 280,000.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aurore</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aurorelle on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[Kven]

<DIV>With all due respect, that's why WoW is full of f*cking [Removed for Content].  I also want a challenge.  IF we didn't have Bony Grasp, I'd still play my warlock.  In fact, I'll be glad when everything IS balanced and we can't solo ^^'s anymore without SERIOUS risk of dying.  Same w/ any other class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Buddercup,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   This spell IS going to change.  And I'll be glad to see a player such as yourself leave because if you played a warlock FOR bony grasp ( an obvious overpowered spell ) then you're just a flavor-of-the-month player.  I was really trying to not be rude, but you're making it difficult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Then you tell people to think before we post?!  ROFL.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Quick impression for you:  <EM>THIS ISN'T FAIR, YOU'RE RUINING MY OVERPOWERED SPELL!!! IF YOU DO THIS I'LL QUIT!</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Remind you of anyone?  Maturity goes a long way.  If you're going to leave, just do it.  You think you can POSSIBLY change anything with posts like that? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   <EM>BEEP BEEP -- 'What's that?' - Ahh... the CLUE BUS is here for ya.  Hop on!</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People never cease to amaze me.</DIV>

[yzyh]

<P>Is that an AoE root that last only 12sec and that requier 4sec to cast can be of any use ?</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>Roflmao ppl ability to kill ++ yellow and orange mobs for warlock have nothing to do with bony grasp - I did that before lvl 40 and still can kill on bet heroic mobs w/o using this spell  it will just take a little longer. Over all it will be good change that separate smart warlocks from dump one who jumped in bandwagon just use silly technic BG-Nuke-Nuke-Nuke Nuke-TNN - FM-BG X N time</P> <P>We have at out disposal 3 stun lines  and YES even Deter have its uses ... if you are smart one of course, we have 3 root lines and YES Cower have its uses as well. Even total removal BG from my arsenal would not prevent me from killing heroic ++ mobs</P> <DIV>Buttom line: Does nerfing BG make me happy? - HELL NO - I got use to this lazy and relaxing spell that elliminate need in any other classes if it can stick on mob. </DIV> <DIV>Do BG in its current stage totale overpowered? - HELL YES ... But not more then templar reactives or monks stifles or bruisers fears .... - each class have similar jaw falling ability</DIV>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FelixDomesticus wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>This change was unintentionally included with Live Update #11, and is meant to be coupled with several other alterations to the spell with the combat changes. It looks like an updated duration table for control spells in general was likely pushed to Test server, so we'll have to look at reverting the change (That means that it probably isn't the only spell that had its duration changed).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Excellent. When you did EXACTLY same mistake with mystic haze line we got answer "It gets fixed in healer/combat patch and because of that we will not change it back". We have waited for that cursed patch for 2.5 MONTHS now as totally broken class and then you do this!<BR><BR>HOW ABOUT A FAIR PLAY FOR A CHANGE??????<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The Troubadors are still interested in why Charm was made to take 5 concentration slots (from zero con.), work for 90s (maximum) and have a 5 minute recast.  Upon the spell breaking we have un-tauntable hate upon us as well.  We were stealth nerfed, have been crying for a couple months and have received no word AT ALL from anyone regarding one of our "class defining spells".  When brought up at fan faire, a Dev said, "It does? Hmm, we'll look into it."

[SalBlu]

Bleh... talk about your bad spell bugs.  That sucks ForgottenFoundling.

[Anachroni]

Well, while I agree that this nerf won`t screw my warlock, I really think this change wouldn`t be a good idea. My primary role is damage, damage and damage again. So I`m still able to fullfil my primary role. Nevertheless it will make my gaming experience more boring. BG was not only a warlock-can-kill-grp-mobs spell. It was one of the few spells giving me impact on crucial situations in grp play when it`s not enough to just nuke everything down. Unsuspected add? Healer can`t keep up and the tank`s HP are going deep orange/red again and again? BG could give you a short break to cool down and heal up. The same counts for Healer aggro. Sometimes I was even able to save my own miserable life by it. Note: It was no press to win button. The casting time is very long for something you want to use as an emergency spell, the mob could still resist, there could be too less room to move outside the mobs meele range, the mob could be a caster, the grp had to react properly to the spell, the spell draws a lot of aggro, there was a huge chance to pull everything nearby.  Still it was something a warlock could do to save the day from time to time.  A way to let your grp see that you know how to play. And for killing heroic mobs: First of all nearly every class is capable of killing heroic mobs. Moreover it`s just not worth the risk and the time.  I realy think it was a perfect spell for our class. The situations in which it could be used were very limited but it added some variation to our game play. It was a fun button - not an ubor button. Jörg PS: I`m aware that our heavy damage output should come at a price and this price hast to be less crowd controle - but to reduce a class to a class of  button smashers is mind dumbingly boring. <div></div>

[V4n]

Every class should have one or two really "oh wow" abilities. So what if it is slightly "overpowering"? BG is not so overpowering that it significantly detracts from the game play for ourselves or for others.Sheesh, let us (all) have some fun in this game. Why does the game need to be reduced to a bunch of marginally-useful, boring, abilities?If you really really had to change BG (you don't), then I would much rather you leave it alone except to up the re-use timer to keep it from being as much of an xp tool. That way we still get the occasional "oh wow" and an emergency escape utility.P.S.SOE, let me put it this way: your game is already suffering from attrition. You should be thinking of ways to add *more* razzle dazzle and fun to the game, not taking away what perks we now have. If there is an imbalance, raise up those who are down. Warlocks got an earlier DPS boost, that was great! Make the environment more challenging where you need to, but please stop the nerfing!<p>Message Edited by V4nce on <span class=date_text>06-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:54 PM</span><p>Message Edited by V4nce on <span class=date_text>06-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:54 PM</span>

[Crono1321]

Yeah it's pretty rediculous or one spell that keeps us remotely safe is going to be destroyed.  Screw the person who said it should be breakable...you are just trying to save your scraps.  Keep the spell the way it is and stop worrying that people can ACTUALLY SOLO.  I'd love to see Splitpaw "solo" zone after warlocks are getting melee'd to death for 844 a hit (yes 844 from a  solo mob in one hit...hit me twice in 5 seconds), while tanks are still going around soloing the game.  Want to solo?  Be a tank, when mobs are green they can't hit you, and when they do hit you, you take 35 damage out of 7000.   Nerf tanks AC, HP, MP, Agility, Str, Sta and then you can nerf bony grasp.  Oh yea and nerf Paladin heals too because its unfair that a tank can heal.  <div></div>

[Zandof]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Zandof on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:22 PM</span>

[Kven]

<P>No offense, but those people freaking out over changes WE HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN YET ... please get a clue.  At least wait until they change it and fix bugs before you start to have a fit.  For those that don't want to calm down, don't let the door hit you on the way out.</P> <P> </P>

[Tanatus]

<P>Jeez ppl if you want see a pain then you solo try solo with coercer....</P> <P>Anyway back to subject: few hints here </P> <P>a) Deter great as pulling spell - 8s duration stun on separate timer from anything else - I'd love to see casting time shorter for it but oh well...</P> <P>b) Cower will never brake on its own as long as mob dont have dots effect on it (curse of emptiness not a a dot) - so dont hesitate use this root a "waiting spell" while you wait for Devastration, ND, TNN timers to refresh</P> <DIV>c) FM still good root - but this root dont tolerate HOs and dont like Dark Pyre or/and any nuke with secondary effects (BSS/Nox Bolt)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>d) if you need take a little run in order to not be killed while your spells refreshing dont hesistate to use wands/dolls for casting it can be done on a run. Funny enouth that only moment then you start use doll/wand important for distance - once casting bar active ... you get yourself somethat outside of casting range and spell still hit target</DIV>

[jaythedogg]

Yea, BG was great in raids, if the raid target spawned mad adds & it was time for a healer to run to come back to revive, I could BG the entire encounter & then some, heck, most people would get away fine! Except me of course, as I always forget to look away when I cast BG, & the BIG skelly hands come up for the main target & a whole bunch of little ones for the rest of the mobs, & I lagged...... When lag was done though, I still couldn't move a muscle, well, except my mouse, to hit the revive button, as my lag lasted well into a minute. Really BG is a great spell & has it's uses, sure, I solo'd a few ++ mobs like bighorn sheep with BG FM & my stuns, but really, I got bored pretty quick, to much running, death, downtime & risk involved to make it worthwhile, I say, if they wanted to make BG more appropriate, leave it be, except there should be a modifier, if it is a heroic mob, & you are solo, it's resists go up enough to make it harder to land BG, if in a group, the resists are standard. That way we could keep the spell for usefulness, unharmed, & we would not solo ++ mobs as frequently, if at all. <div></div>

[Deathspell]

<div></div>At:Crono1321, instead of nerfing pally's and all other classes, how about this:The entire point of having different classes is that each has their own special abilities.What you want is, one generic class that is the same for every player. Hey, and nobody will complain anymore!I don't care if a Wizard can evac, or if a Paladin can heal (a bit), or that a ranger can run faster, or that summoners have a tanking pet,.... The most important thing is that all classes should be equal in doing the same basic things, and that is killing mobs in solo encounters.It's not a matter about how it is done; by doing great damage, or by healing, or by mezzing,... it's about that it should be possible for every class.<a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=70832"><span></span></a><div></div>

[yzyh]

<P>If they nerf Bony Grasp thye will need to give us a lot of love.</P> <P>Wizard DPS will be boosted to match Warlock DPS. Wich is a fair thing.</P> <P>Wizard have nice group and raid utility so Warlock having a powerfull group root is IMO a faor balancing.</P> <P>Also the Warlock class is not that popular even with all the power they have. The rare time I do meet one in the mids lvl. Its just someone alt.</P> <DIV>So even if we could solo ubber it wouldn't hurt anything and IMO it would be a nice thing. What I liked in EQ1 is the fact that some class could do some pretty ubba thing solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do not make another World of Warcraft. If everyone can solo the same target. No one can do anything special.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1</DIV> <DIV>My Bard: could do best EXP soloing but he coud die in a single sec and it was very complex to kiting 40mobs at a time</DIV> <DIV>My Chanter: could charm kitting some pretty bad [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] mobs. Bt it was very risky too and chanter were so nerfed with their Mezz ability they were so boring to play in group.</DIV> <DIV>My bro Necro: were the best dongeon soloer out there with amost no risk to die. But it was not a very popular class and they weren't group friendly so thats fair.</DIV> <DIV>Shamans: They were horrible at solo EXP but they could take out some mobs that no other class could have soloed.</DIV> <DIV>Druid: They were ubber soloer and a very popular class. But they were so useless in groups and soloing was so boring with them. it was a fair thing to allow them good solo.</DIV>

[Dae]

Making every class equally desireable in both a group and solo situation is kind of the whole point of balancing... EQ1? Bards ability to kite like that was nerfed to hell. Necros don't contribute much to a group? Beyond awesome dps, off-tanking pets, mind wrack and pretty good crowd control to boot? Druids useless in groups? What version of EQ were you playing? Druids are a perfectly good substitute for Clerics in 99% of situations as well as providing a lot of utility and decent damage. <div></div>

[yzyh]

<P>Only the AA that were boosting range of AoE DoT got nerfed in EQ wich was really too powerfull.  Soloing 60mobs in HoT was a way overpowered.</P> <P> </P> <P>But well bard still able to charm kite all day.</P> <P>I had a necro lvl 66 and hell no I was not DPS. I thought I was good but once I used EQ log parser I realised how far from DPS I were. Well I once grouped with a DPS necro. But he were from conquest and has every single AA int he game. Even the +agi ones. And off tanking.... did you played OoW ? they would kill my pet in a sec or 2.</P> <P> </P> <P>and druid healing in group ? maybe in the lvl 30's 40's but no way they could be a healer once you reached PoP. Maybe in Plain of Justice if you had a good group and a solid tank. But they were always out of mana. and druid DPS ???? their DPS shield wasn't real DPS vs mobs that are not quadra hitting.</P> <P>You could use a druid as main healer only fi you had a shaman slowin and spending all of if spared mana to assissting healin. Thats crap. I prefer to have a cleric taking care of every heals and the shaman usin DoTs or well. a chanter with his Dire Charmed PeT.</P>

[Dae]

I wasn't going to debate EQLive stuff in this thread but since it's about run it's course anyway I figure what the hell. I quit EQ2 a couple of months after OOW came out. I don't know anything about charm soloing. I just know that Bard AE's would no longer damage mobs if the Bard was moving therefore swarm kiting was effectively removed from the game. Did you lack the AAs and spells to actually do your job? I don't know a Necro that didn't provide significant damage in a group situation. Pets tanked perfectly well for short durations in elementals and the easier OOW zones provided the healer was paying attention. A slower was pretty much a given in an xp group from PoP onwards. It was a luxury in LDON but not really required since LDON (normal setting) was about as tough as PoJ or PoI and most anyone could tank it regardless of class (assuming they'd actually invested time in their character). Druids only able to heal with a Shaman spamming constantly and only in PoJ? Are you kidding me? Did you ever group with a Druid worth their salt? As a Cleric I could tank PoJ. My EQ1 guild used Druids as Cleric substitutes in any number of situations from xp groups to CH chains. Not sure where you got Druid dps = damage shield from. Nukes and DoTs a plenty. This is all assuming the Druid had the AA required to effective of course. <div></div>

[Anachroni]

I like the idea of increasing the recast time. You won`t be able to root again and again, but there still would be this wow-what-an-cool-spell-effect from time to time. It`s true that nerfs have to come from time to time and that bg is a very powerful spell - but it`s also true that one should have  cool spells to play around with at lvl 50. As someone said before, this spell wasn`t one of the spells killing the game. The complaints started with this video, not with people unable to get any loot, because of those evil warlocks soloing all the raid mobs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Jörg PS: No offence to the maker of the video...but offence to the whiners...really sad story.  <div></div>

[Anachroni]

<div></div><div></div>double post...have no idea why <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Anachronist on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:42 AM</span>

[dreadfa]

dammit i'm level 39 lol no fair

[yzyh]

<DIV>Well all I'll say is did you used any log parser ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and well necro wer enot group friendly thats all. I were notuseless to a group but in a 6players group you need a slower, a cleric and a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So 3 spot left. But b4 a necro you would taken a  rogue, monk, bard, ranger, shaman or chanter (depend what U ad to be slower) and a mage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But well my necro could join aggro ktie group and do lvl 59 to 61 in 1 day so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid couldn't heal well in PoI without a slower thats all. don,t talk me about their AA. their is no usefull AA under lvl 55. and even the lvl 55's ones wont turn a druid into a good main healer. Thats why most raiding guild don't recuite them anymore. 75%complet heal with a crappy max of like 3kHP on the 75%heal wont refill a 9k Hp tank. it is maybe higher then 3kHP max healing power I quited EQ1 after OoW scraped the game.</DIV>

[Dae]

<div></div><strike>Yeah see you're talking people at level 55ish. I'm talking about people at level 65 with a decent amount of AA. Why I'm even discussing PoI or PoJ (or any T1 zone for that matter) for people at that level is anyone's guess. At 55 a Druid hasn't even received their first partial CH let alone their second one. Pre-58 I imagine Druids would kinda suck.</strike> Forget it. I give up. It's clear you've got a skewed point of view. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Daerv on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[yzyh]

<DIV>yeah sure at 65 with about 30AA and pretty good Focus gear. A druid could heal in most EXP group. I completly do agree. But if its take 300hours to your character to be a primary healer. you can't really be called a primary healer class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normal druids were secondary healers with some buffs. They could manage to be primary healer with good gears, beeing at capped lvl with many AA's.</DIV><p>Message Edited by yzyh on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 AM</span>

[jaythedogg]

<span><blockquote><hr>Daerv wrote:I wasn't going to debate EQLive stuff in this thread but since it's about run it's course anyway I figure what the hell. <b><i><u>I quit EQ2 a couple of months after OOW came out.</u></i></b> __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________ I assume you meant you quit EQ. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>