Prepare for the next mage whine session after the DPS fix.

[fed]

First I would like to say the patch sounds really good so far. Most nukes seem to have been adressed, and it sounds like mage subclasses will finally be able to do proper damage, like it was always supposed to be. However I can see the next 'problem' on the horizon already, mark my words...If we can do a good deal more damage we'll run into the fact that we draw aggro from the tank. This is called overnuking in EQ1 and is bad (tm). Yes, you can dish out the damage, but you need to manage your aggro and try not to steal aggro from the tank, it's a fine line to walk. At the moment people are used to going full blast as soon as the tank gets his 1st hit in, that's bad! <b>Find the line between maximizing damage and not getting aggro, be a good player, please!</b>I'd like to hereby call upon everyone to tell people that start moaning about getting aggro too fast:<b>"Wise up and learn how to play a wizard, manage your aggro, don't go full blast in the first second."</b>Mark my words, let the [FaarNerfed!]ing about aggro commence!

[BaronVonPitviper]

<DIV>Well, I for one wont complain. I promise you wont hear me whining about drawing agro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileywink:</DIV>

[maddawg138]

<DIV>i draw aggro as it is from tanks lower lvl than me.....i dont run like most mages i just stand there and take a hit and trust the healers in my group....if you have a good healer then you can easily still kill the mob without dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yesterday i actually drew aggro from a lvl 39 tank....mind you im 36...but thats cause i hit for 616 and i guess the mob didnt like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>most of the time i wait about 30 seconds before even thinking about casting my hardest hitting damage spells....usually i just throw on the debuffs then DoT's that way the tank can get enough aggro.</DIV>

[Somanta]

<DIV>I love the agro control.... actually is almost a chain nuke and rarely take agro from tank.... We will see a lot of wizards/warlocks deaths, but this will make combat more interesting and skilled for us.</DIV>

[LowDownAndDirty]

<DIV>Hmm.. I don't think I want my 1.1k nuke cut in half and my cast timers increased, no matter how much they increase the damage.  I'd much rather have my two level 50 spells off the same cast timer, and my level 48 spell fixed so it actually does what it's supposed to do.  I'd also like to see warlocks' power sapping spells and procs drain power better than they do now.  That's what I understood warlock to be about...  power management, not so much dps.  If I'd wanted to be a big nuking wizard, I would have gone wizard.  *shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>50 Warlock</DIV> <DIV>-Everfrost</DIV><p>Message Edited by LowDownAndDirty on <span class=date_text>02-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:39 AM</span>

[Megloman]

<DIV>Well, its a good thing really. Agro management should be part of the job of the mage classes, makes it so at least some skill is required rather than just spamming the DD's. The most important thing is that we now will HAVE the option to go full burn in the rare situation when it's needed and could save the group, all adds to the fun.</DIV>

[Thyri]

I would say lets wait, as seen in the testcenter patch notes they also incrased Taunt ability of tanks. Hopefully this is the same increase as our damage. Also we have good abilities to prevent getting aggro or get aggro off from us. I tried a little with root spells (not the fear one), and its a good deal using it as often as possible to prevent getting aggro, when a mob is rooted when getting hit by high damage spells, the tank has it much easier to still hold aggro. Also if the case happens that we get aggro (and im at the moment often having it but i know my group as we always play together and i know i can play risky with them) there are still fear spells left to get them away from me, rooting right afterwards and the tank knows his time to get aggro back has come.

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> feday wrote:<BR>First I would like to say the patch sounds really good so far. Most nukes seem to have been adressed, and it sounds like mage subclasses will finally be able to do proper damage, like it was always supposed to be. However I can see the next 'problem' on the horizon already, mark my words...<BR><BR>If we can do a good deal more damage we'll run into the fact that we draw aggro from the tank. This is called overnuking in EQ1 and is bad (tm). <BR>Yes, you can dish out the damage, but you need to manage your aggro and try not to steal aggro from the tank, it's a fine line to walk. At the moment people are used to going full blast as soon as the tank gets his 1st hit in, that's bad! <B>Find the line between maximizing damage and not getting aggro, be a good player, please!</B><BR><BR>I'd like to hereby call upon everyone to tell people that start moaning about getting aggro too fast:<BR><B>"Wise up and learn how to play a wizard, manage your aggro, don't go full blast in the first second."</B><BR><BR>Mark my words, let the [FaarNerfed!]ing about aggro commence!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399ff size=3>LOL....      </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399ff size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399ff size=3>The only thing you just said is nothing more than the difference between a good Warlock and a bad Warlock.... greatness comes from knowing ALL the roles within your group and applying yours to perfections.....!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399ff size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LlewCadey]

also, one way to keep the agro off you is not to finnish any HOs, i find when i finnish an HO i get ADD pretty soon after if the tank doesnt keep the taunts coming

[Effie]

<DIV>Aside from buggy aggro in group encounters, it's near impossible to pull aggro from a good (<STRONG>attentive</STRONG>) tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shunidar]

<DIV> <DIV>"Well, I for one wont complain. I promise you wont hear me whining about drawing agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <P></P> <DIV> <P>Endaur"</P></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hehehe.... according to what I was doing to those poor orcs in zek last night, you need to watch how often you hit that dark distortion button unless you wanna try tanking with toilet paper<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   (kaboom!)</DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>BaronVonPitviper wrote:<DIV>Well, I for one wont complain. I promise you wont hear me whining about drawing agro. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>:smileywink:</DIV><hr></blockquote>the dead can't whine.

[BritishKnight20]

<DIV>What a lot of people seem to neglect is that aggro management is the job of the Tank and not the casters. Of course, an early nuke can make you a pancake before the tank has properly engaged the mob, but likewise, a tank with app2 taunts is gonna have you reaching for the revive button too. The bottom line is that the majority of us can recognise the right time to start blasting when sufficient hate has been accumulated on the tank. In my opinion there is no excuse for a level 30+ tank using app2 taunts, they are a liability. Its all down to communication and experience, the MT should always signal when he has achieved what he deams as sufficient aggro. </DIV>

[Effie]

<DIV>The problem was that Warlocks currently do such *average* DPS  that no aggro management is required. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless the tank totally sucks (with app1/2 taunts), is AFK during combat or is 8 levels lower, I can start turbo-mashing my nukes the moment my tank hits their first taunt. Personally, I enjoy toeing the aggro line. If there is no risk of me catching heat from nuking, it gets kinda dull... where is the fun or excitement in chain nuking with no fear of drawing aggro from a mob that hits for 1200+?</DIV>

[Vaelorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BritishKnight2004 wrote:<BR> <DIV>What a lot of people seem to neglect is that aggro management is the job of the Tank and not the casters. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is absolutely incorrect.  <STRONG>Agro management is the job of EVERYONE, not just the tanks.</STRONG>  It is the job of the primary tank to do everything necessary to hold agro, but it is up to the scouts, mages, priests, and secondary tanks to do their best to avoid pulling agro off of the primary tank.</DIV>

[Raminicus]

<blockquote><hr>Vaelorn wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>BritishKnight2004 wrote:<BR><DIV>What a lot of people seem to neglect is that aggro management is the job of the Tank and not the casters. <BR><HR></div></blockquote><BR><DIV>That is absolutely incorrect. <STRONG>Agro management is the job of EVERYONE, not just the tanks.</strong> It is the job of the primary tank to do everything necessary to hold agro, but it is up to the scouts, mages, priests, and secondary tanks to do their best to avoid pulling agro off of the primary tank.</div><hr></blockquote>I agree.I usually say that a caster's main job is to not pull aggro, while a tank's job is to build as much hate as he/she can and not try to hit for heavy damage.As a caster you should be able to tell if you're laying on the nukes too much. Adjust your play accordingly. If your tank doesn't understand that they shouldn't be trying to DPS, then calmly ask them to taunt as much as possible but also start nuking a bit less, concentrate on DOTs and debuffs.Additionally, I don't feel it's the healer's job to heal anybody but the main tank. Anybody else who gets healed, that's a bonus. This is because it's the job of all but the main tank to avoid aggro, and let the healer only concentrate on the tank. High-end encounters with MOBs doing AOE dmg is a different story, obviously.But, everything's situational. The above is just how I go about playing a mage.

[Brumba]

<DIV>Really, I dont see whats so hard about this.  First you stand back well out of the mobs range, use all of your dots and debuffs(by this time if the tank doesnt have aggro he never will) and then you nuke thats all.  Standing back reduces the chance of the mob going after you plus if it does go after you the tank has the chance to hit and taunt it before it gets to you and can reclaim agro.  Dotting and debuffing first helps the meleers gain agro while wittling down the mob, plus when you start nuking it will be more effective due to the debuffs.  Also for long fights make sure to redot and debuff the mob as that will reduce the ammount of agro you are building while helping out the tanks.</DIV>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brumbata wrote:<BR> <DIV> Standing back reduces the chance of the mob going after you plus if it does go after you the tank has the chance to hit and taunt it before it gets to you and can reclaim agro. <BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your position relavent to the mob does not change your aggro in any way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I find it best to stand behind the mob near the scouts, since many tanks use abilites that root them in place, they have to click off that buff to move to you if you steal aggro, but if you are near the mob tanks dont have to spend the time clicking off buffs.  Just be wary of barrage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[BritishKnight20]

<DIV>This is getting off topic but in defence of my position regarding aggro I just wanted to clarify something: Aggro Management is the job of the tank, you can have other opinions but its fact. The main tank must always be at the top of the hate list or his support (mages, scouts, priests) are dead and so is he. Its ludicrous to expect these classes to omit their most powerful abilities/spells for fear of drawing aggro from the tank - and if that does happen its the job of the tank to regain a mobs hate and reassume. As ive said before once sufficient aggro is generated at the start of an encounter, all classes should feel they have free reign of their abilities otherwise the group as a whole is inefficient and the individuals within it gimped, how many raid encounters would be successful on this premise? Maybe its just me, i don't do pick up groups and i know the strengths of all those in my guild groups. A tank played correctly will never give other groups members concern about maximising their dps.</DIV>

[Effie]

<DIV>I have left a number of groups for that reason alone.</DIV> <DIV>If a tank can't keep aggro off a (currently average DPS) warlock, there's a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday I joined a group with a Paladin tank who was 1 level below me. </DIV> <DIV>I make a point to alway scheck out the gear of the tank in pickup groups. If they have subpar gear, there's a good chance they have subpar combat arts. Well anyway, his gear was pretty awful, a number of greyed out jewelry pieces and below average HP/AC. I figured I'd at least give the guy a chance as he seemed pretty cool.</DIV> <DIV>In the first dozen fights, I pulled aggro off him half the time. This was opening with Curse of Null and Dark Emanation followed by BSS. On multiple mob groups, the mobs were all over the healers. Luckily nobody died.... well after holding back on nuking (50% drop in DPS) for about 20 fights I finally said "I'm not much use in a group where I am afraid to nuke for drawing aggro", then promptly left the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, a tank that cannot hold aggro off a healer or an 'average damage' mage is unacceptable. The difference between good tanks and lousy tanks is going to be even more pronounced when we get our damage boost.</DIV>

[Sele]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BritishKnight2004 wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is getting off topic but in defence of my position regarding aggro I just wanted to clarify something: Aggro Management is the job of the tank, you can have other opinions but its fact. The main tank must always be at the top of the hate list or his support (mages, scouts, priests) are dead and so is he. Its ludicrous to expect these classes to omit their most powerful abilities/spells for fear of drawing aggro from the tank - and if that does happen its the job of the tank to regain a mobs hate and reassume. As ive said before once sufficient aggro is generated at the start of an encounter, all classes should feel they have free reign of their abilities otherwise the group as a whole is inefficient and the individuals within it gimped, how many raid encounters would be successful on this premise? Maybe its just me, i don't do pick up groups and i know the strengths of all those in my guild groups. A tank played correctly will never give other groups members concern about maximising their dps.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Of course it is true that the tank is the leading person in crowd managment. Dispite of that, everyone needs to inlcude their effort to ensure, crowd controll. As a warlock, I surely need to think about my spell chains. This is unresponsible towards the group, to think tanks are just the only once, to do the crowd managment with their taunts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see the point of just nuke to the max of dps. First, I see to do much more dots and debuffs. And anyway, as I said, this is just inresponsible, tanks aren't the only figures who need to give their effort for crowd control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game isn't just created to give your own full ability output, just to created more dps and at the same time risking to get a wipe. The charactes abilitiy is much more depenting on the playing style, of the person who is sitting behind. Its in your own personal abilitiy to backup sometimes, to give safty to the group and not just thinking everything is just about tanks. Thats unfair and thats not how a well done group should work. I dont want to be rude, but thats for me just egoism in your own profit and fun.<BR></DIV>

[Dae]

Maximising dps has to be balanced with aggro control. In that respect this game is similar to EQ1. Aggro is a sliding scale. To think that you should be able to just go all out with nukes and expect the tank to hold aggro no matter what really is a naive view of the whole combat system. It's simply not how things work and if it were possible it would utterly remove the need for skill in playing your character.Anyone can figure out how to cast their nukes in such an order than there is a constant stream of damage. Timing your attacks, balancing your nukes with DoTs, hp convert and other abilities in order to create breaks in the dps all help to manage aggro. People aren't saying you need to stop doing things in order to reduce your aggro. Simply do other things.It is every group members responsibility to control their own aggro in differing situations. Not every encounter can be solved by chain nuking till the mob dies. If it could this game would be terribly boring.Yes the tank needs their App4/Adept taunts. No it is not the tanks responsibility to stop you from getting reamed when you nuke irresponsibly.

[Raminicus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BritishKnight2004 wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is getting off topic but in defence of my position regarding aggro I just wanted to clarify something: Aggro Management is the job of the tank, you can have other opinions but its fact. The main tank must always be at the top of the hate list or his support (mages, scouts, priests) are dead and so is he. Its ludicrous to expect these classes to omit their most powerful abilities/spells for fear of drawing aggro from the tank - and if that does happen its the job of the tank to regain a mobs hate and reassume. As ive said before once sufficient aggro is generated at the start of an encounter, all classes should feel they have free reign of their abilities otherwise the group as a whole is inefficient and the individuals within it gimped, how many raid encounters would be successful on this premise? Maybe its just me, i don't do pick up groups and i know the strengths of all those in my guild groups. A tank played correctly will never give other groups members concern about maximising their dps.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>There's a group of us in my guild who regularly raid and quest together.  We fight extremely well and I have never pulled aggro off my tank.  Every one of us do our jobs extremely well.  The main quad of the group consists of : Me (Warlock), a Berzerker, a Templar and a Swashbuckler.</P> <P>We went out once simply to gather some numbers and see just what it takes to pull aggro off the tank.  None of us used any spells other than what we had as Adept 1, thereby ensuring that all spells were at the same level.  We all did this once we all dinged 30, so there was no character level difference either.  And we all push eachother to have the very best equipment possible, so I can assure you there was nothing "subpar" (as another poster said) about this group.  </P> <P>Our Findings:</P> <P>It takes 1 taunt for each nuke between 150-275 (Suffocating Breath) dmg for the tank to keep aggro.</P> <P>It takes 2 taunts for each nuke between 300 and 500 (Dark Distortion) for the tank to keep aggro.</P> <P>It took 2.5 taunts for each heal in order for the tank to keep aggro.</P> <P>And it took us about 3 taunts per buff (proc or re-application of a group buff) during combat in order for the tank to retain aggro.</P> <P>I forget exactly, but when the scout started and finished an HO chain it took between 1.5 and 2.5 taunts for the tank to retain aggro.</P> <P>Now, that's a heck of a lot of taunting, which is fine with our tank, but wow.  If you give the tank a good amount of time to establish the hate in the beginning of the fight, then the numbers largely vary.  But you have to give him/her about 3 taunts before laying into the creature(s) and the tank must keep taunting the whole time.  And if you think that it's solely the job of the tank to manage aggro, then you are sorely off-base.</P> <P> </P>

[Thyri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raminicus wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <P>It takes 1 taunt for each nuke between 150-275 (Suffocating Breath) dmg for the tank to keep aggro.</P> <P>It takes 2 taunts for each nuke between 300 and 500 (Dark Distortion) for the tank to keep aggro.</P> <P>It took 2.5 taunts for each heal in order for the tank to keep aggro.</P> <P>And it took us about 3 taunts per buff (proc or re-application of a group buff) during combat in order for the tank to retain aggro.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My experiences with my main guild group are completely different to yours. Im usally around with the following: 34 SK, me 35 Warlock and 34 Inquisitor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The SK pulls normally with range spell, and then taunts. By time i learned on how to see when his first taunt gets on the target, also watching if it gets resisted or not. If it gets not resisted, im beginning first line, Debuffing and Doting. This goes exactly together from time until the tank has his solo HO taunt on the mob. Then i begin nuking. My order of nuking is as follows when i hard nuke a mob: HO start, DD (adept3), Nox Bolt (app4), Sufo Breath (adept1), Nox Bolt, DD is ready in the millisecond the 2nd Nox Bolt finishes, so again DD, Nox Bolt, Sufo Breath, Steal Breath (debuff) and beginning again. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As from what i talked to the SK, in those 11 seconds the first line (until the 2nd DD) is ready. And i never draw aggro with that. If it would be like your table, i would draw instant aggro with my first Dark Distortion. Remember this is adept3 DD against an app4 taunt, and its working good. If i nuke the DD before the 2nd taunt, i get aggro 100% for sure, but never after that.  Also im often rebuffing Abhorrent Gift before the tank gets his first taunt to the mob, and i never drawed aggro with that. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it would be like you say, the tank would need 5 taunts for one of my lines minimum which he could absolutely not do. </DIV>

[Lyones]

as a paladin and a warlock i can guaranty to you that negative absolution and its upgrades generate more hate then a comparable shout... At lvl 32 with a lvl 33 warlock using the negative absolution traingin upgrade i'd judge that its overrun by 1 shout (well... the lvl 23 upgrade one at adept i) + 1 group shield bash (app iv) + 1 cast of crying conviction (app iv)... 1 shout + 1 round of Crushing Anvil seems to work too... those numbers were kind of tested out so they don't include divine inspiration, redemption or the paladin ward that steals hate... i was also not in shining beacon stanceHowever, if i buff up completely and then wade in and shout i usually generate enough aggro to hold the fight for the entire time (if warded by myself, with divine inspiration and with redemption on the biggest hate monger in group)... in fact, against solo mobs i don't even have to taunt except to finish the occasional HO...

[Thyri]

well what can be and what i forget to mention, from what i noticed the "BIGGEST" aggro meter is the distance to the mob. If im standing on the farthest possible point to nuke it, i can do what i want and even if i try im not able to get aggro. If i stand 5m near the mob, my above tactic would fail

[Ashur]

<DIV>Distance to mob is a factor. Grinding through AQ's with my warlock in Fallen Gate and I have a generally good tactic, three dots/debuffs, then two nukes, repeat. This works alright for the most part on single ^^ group mobs. When it comes to groups of mobs though, dotting is a waste, they die to fast and I don't have an AoE debuff yet (Beyond Negative absolution, but really, how often would that do much in Fallen Gate? Most likely never) so I just alternate nukes and burn down mobs as quick as I can. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tried a couple times, guardian tank, SK tank, berzerker tank, etc, to AoE nuke groups of mobs, figuring I could burn down the whole group but nope. Foolish thinking. Since I am standing so close to the mobs (literally nowhere else to go without aggroing another group sometimes) my AoE's get me pushing up daisy's a lot of the time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even on single target mobs using my normal line I can grab aggro if I don't pay attention. Was talking to my guild leader and just cycling DPS on an orange ^^ group mob. Bam Bam pushing up flowers. As a warlock I can pretty much thump everyone in DPS at this level, some scouts can get close, but most the time I -already- have to tone myself down or I pull aggro. I think (judging by the posts here that supposedly, a warlock can go all out and not get aggro) that this is largely based on distance to the target(s).</DIV>

[Brumba]

<DIV>Distance from the mob is definately a factor.  Ever try standing next to tank and nuking, the mob will pop you every once in a while even if the tank is holding agro.  Also if you are back a ways from the mob the tank has a chance to hit it once or twice as well as taunt it if it breaks agro and comes after you.</DIV>

[Vaelorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brumbata wrote:<BR> <DIV>Distance from the mob is definately a factor.  Ever try standing next to tank and nuking, the mob will pop you every once in a while even if the tank is holding agro.  Also if you are back a ways from the mob the tank has a chance to hit it once or twice as well as taunt it if it breaks agro and comes after you.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>In any decent dungeon, you really *can't* stand back away from the fight too much.  You have to keep your group consolidated in a small area, to avoid picking up agro from roamers or respawns.  You usually have some room to work with, but you usually won't be standing anywhere near the maximum range for a spell.</P> <P>As far as standing next to a tank and nuking, and the mob hitting you on occasion, that could simply be ripostes from swinging your stick.  In almost every circumstance, everyone in the group should be positioned behind the target mobs, and the primary tank should be the only player standing in front of the mobs.  You'd have to be more specific about what happened...</P> <P>As for giving the tank time to hit the mob a few times and taunt it before it gets to you (after you pull agro off of the tank), that's a moot point.  The tanks should be hitting the mob anyway, and the primary tank should always be using their taunt every time it refreshes, period, regardless of what the mob is doing.</P> <P>Now, back to the orginal thread.  Assuming you have a competent player behind your tank, and they are reasonably well equipped with gear and skill upgrades...</P> <P>With great power, comes great responsibility.  That's such a cliche line, but it's absolutely true.  If you want to have the power to obliterate mobs in a handful of casts, you need to understand that this will generate massive amounts of agro, very quickly, and if you do this and pull agro from the primary tank who is already spamming taunts and skills as fast as they refresh, then it is <STRONG>your fault for pulling the agro</STRONG>, and not the tank's fault for losing agro.</P> <P>Many healers (especially if they are the only healer in the group) will flat out tell you that they will not risk the life of the tank to switch targets to save you if you pull major agro and get the crap beat out of you in a tough encounter.  If they switch targets to save you, you will probably still die anyway, the healer will get massive agro from spamming inefficient direct heals trying to save you, the healer will then die and/or run out of power (because he wasted it on you), and the rest of the group either dies or runs away.  For a group to stay functional requires that the tank survives to taunt and tank the mobs, and the healer survives to keep the tank alive; if you jeapordize either one of those people, your own safety is forfeit, because you just jeapordized the safety of the entire group or raid.  Many healers will simply let you die, so that agro moves back onto the tank where it belongs, and revive you later at their earliest convenience, which may be after the entire encounter is dealt with.</P> <P>However, if your primary tank does not have decent equipment, and/or they do not have their key skills upgraded to at least Apprentice 3, then you should seriously consider getting another tank who can do the job properly and bump the underequipped tank to the secondary role (Intervene on priest, guard buffs on primary tank, etc.).  If the underequipped tank is the only tank you have to work with, then that's what you have to work with, and if it means you have to nuke half as much and half as often and your DPS suffers because of it, then so be it; <STRONG>agro must stay on the primary tank for the group to safely function</STRONG>.</P>

[Kaz]

Never stand in front of a mob, you're taking barrage hits, not mob aggro. I personally haven't noticed distance having any effect on aggro. I always stand directly behind the mob to avoid pulling adds. At level 49 I have all adept 3/master I and I chain like you wouldn't believe. The only times I take aggro depend entirely on the tank ... ie ability to taunt by class, level, spell level, or slackness. Also, tank taunting is based off of accumulated aggro, meaning that when it pops the tank is going to use it. It's not like eq1 where taunt has a chance to put the tank at the top of the hate list so they don't save it to use if you draw aggro and if they have to chase the mob they're going to more likely miss swings/skills chasing the mob rather than buy them time to get it off you. The less chasing the better.<p>Message Edited by Kaziq on <span class=date_text>02-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:17 AM</span>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thyriel wrote:<BR>well what can be and what i forget to mention, from what i noticed the "BIGGEST" aggro meter is the distance to the mob. If im standing on the farthest possible point to nuke it, i can do what i want and even if i try im not able to get aggro. If i stand 5m near the mob, my above tactic would fail<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>i'll say again...</P> <P> </P> <P>Distance from mob does not affect your aggro generation...period...</P> <P>and to say distance of the "BIGGEST" aggro meter... gives me a good laugh.</P>

[Effie]

<DIV>Proximity does play a small factor in hate generation... a miniscule factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hate is determined by the following factors. Listed in order of effectiveness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunt skills</DIV> <DIV>Burst damage</DIV> <DIV>Instant heals</DIV> <DIV>Group buffs</DIV> <DIV>Heal over time</DIV> <DIV>Sustained damage</DIV> <DIV>Reactive heals</DIV> <DIV>Which way the wind is blowing</DIV> <DIV>Proximity</DIV>

[BritishKnight20]

<DIV>Not to mention being at max range to a mob, means you are : a) a bus ride away from the MT whose job it will be to pull the mob off you before you are one-rounded. b) potentially out of range of heals. c) unable to cast venomous runes and other spells and d) as has already been mentioned: pulling extra adds for the party.</DIV>

[Thyri]

so now the patch is live on your servers (ours coming on monday i think), how is it with aggro? Is it affected by the changes or not?

[fed]

Of course it's changed. If you try you'll certainly be able to draw aggro with the new changes, but it's not so bad that it's annoying. I can nuke pretty hard without drawing aggro, though I did have the occasional overnuke; I never died from it though. Also I'll have to admit I did have a good tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BaronVonPitviper]

<DIV>Last night (post patch) a group of us went to Nektropos to do sisters and everling. I started off easy in the entrance room with the ghost dogs just to test the waters, but our tank had zero trouble holding agro. After we strated rolling, I was pretty much nuking like a crazy [Removed for Content] and got agro one time the entire night. Even with the encounters that had like 10 of those scarey little dolls, nothing chased me. Our druid and cleric got agro a half dozen times or so that I saw from healing I guess. I really have not had any agro troubles of note in a full group with a true tank. I guess if you are in an exp group get hit too much, find a different tank? Especially after last night, it seems to me the tank is pretty much to blame (for whatever reason) if mobs ping pong around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Life as a Warlock is so good, I'm at work and I cannot stop smiling.</DIV>