fast casting versus crit : parse

[ailees]

<div></div>Today we went for fun in Poet Palace, the return.I thought it would be a very good occasion to test my new agility line (after almost 1 year of strengh)All fight, without any exception, are AE ones. And you know we, wizards, are not very good at that.Now the parse : I am in a group with both singer and pallytitle  extended DPS<u>zone : fight duration 1 hour (minus 30 sec)</u>1/ Ailees  13532/ conjurer 12623/ assasin 12104/ conjurer 11965/ brigand 10308/ pally (my shield) 795.. 11/ wizard 700other wiz is with crit line, in such AE fights, without protection, noway.for the fun :<u>group of palace guardians, ;duration 1,23 </u>Ailees 2169conj 1907assasin 1264<u>a grand palace guardians group ;duration 3,16</u>Ailees 1835SK (MT) 1252conjurer 1212assassin 1196<u>Uyendien 1,07</u> Ailees 1766conj 1391assassin 1333conj2 1297<u>Djakilon 1,27</u>Ailees 1213assassin 1100monk 1038sk tank 1029remains of a failed somethg : 0.03  conjurer 6504tank 6371conj 4557Ailees 3808<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />to be more serious , let's see the spell casting numbers in detail. firestorm is 22% my damages  and 640 hits  (1,2 meg damages)glacial wind 15  and 855 (800K)IN 15 and 73  (793k and 4 crit)BOL 12 and 145 (641k)fusion 11% and 47 (600K only 1 crit)other wizard (11th in general fighting)firestorm 17% and 280 hits (477k)icenova 16% and 48 hits  (451)fusion 12% and 25 (349)and 280 hits with GW only (of course should use it much more)another wiz (lower DPS)fusion 30% 22 hits  (i think <u>he's loosing a lot of time</u> casting it with catalyst, because  only 342 K and 13 crit)IN 15% 17 hits (same problem I bet : 200K damages 12 crits)...to be honest, I always have a better DPS than my friends, just because I worked a lot for that, and I'm interested in it ; but here the difference is really enormous, and in such a zone, I bet labs or Lyceum would also be (but not so much, because you don't find groups of 10 mobs or more in those.. hapilly), any zone with groups of mob,  fast casting line is better than crit line if you want highest DPS.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by ailees on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 PM</span>

[valkyrja]

It's really hard to compare these against other players, because you could simply be more skilled than the others.  However, I have noticed the same thing in my guild.  I always out-parse the other wizards, they went the STR+WIS path, I went the AGI+WIS path.  Again, it's hard to say I'm outparsing them because I cast more but to me it makes sense.  The + to Crit is too low to make a significant difference IMO.   I'm rarely the one with the high hit, but I could really care less about that.I'm really happy with my choice to go AGI and WIS to the end of each line, with the further reductions in casting I get from the EoF tree, I'm a casting maniac <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[TheBu]

<DIV>that a really fast zone right? sometime pep dont even get in many spells, so having the faster cast will help a lot in that zone...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheBuzZ wrote:<div>that a really fast zone right? sometime pep dont even get in many spells, so having the faster cast will help a lot in that zone...</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>If you do the zone the way my guild does, you basically AE the hell out of everything.  So it stands to reason that Crit people would be at an even greater advantage in these zones, as they *should* have crits going off like mad.   It goes by quick, but that should be of no consequence, it's not as if the spell haste guy is getting off 3 spells compared to the crit guy getting off 1 spell.If anything, spell haste should truely benefit you over longer duration fights.</div>

[Tanit]

<div></div>That test doesnt tell me much, imo the best way to test which one is best to try both yourself (ok you kinda did, but would need parses from before also). There are too many other factors around when comparing 2 different players. His 700dps only tells me he wasn't even trying.Anyway, I changed from str/wis to agi/wis last week. Unfortunately i had to play my defiler, so haven't been able to try it myself >.<<div></div>

[simpwrx02]

<DIV>I have done both the str/wis and agi/wis and with either line I am top dps in my guild, major difference is that with faster casting your spike damage is not as bad and will get aggro less that is the main thing i found out and even with faster casting if you want the big numbers just get manburn as well.  Only did one raid with it and cant compare it to the same zone as far as dps is concerned in that last tim eguild did this zone was pre EoF and with all the changes.... apples to oranges.</DIV>

[ailees]

><b>Sparql  </b>: fast zone = good for crit ?I am not sure I agree with you, because there are 2 things that must be taken into account :1/ game play : using catalist with fusion and IN is not good, better use it with firestorm ! (but as I was the one with amend, it is a bit risky...)2/ catalist refresh is slow, then you cannot cast it a lot ! the tank was jumping from group to group, and I had hard time getting enough mana, even with good drinks and canibalism(s) : a good fight of more than 1 min and less than 1,30 was putting me OOP. A fight more than 2 min, I had to cani><b>tanith </b>: test against other players not meaningfulyes, I agree, and already told that in my first post. I always had the best DPS because I trained for that. But I never saw such a difference.I told also that I have been with the crit line till end of november. I parsed a lot (see other posts in here) and ended pretty sure that the crit line was not the right way to go DPS higher and higher, because the new AAs were giving more fast casting for some spells. I will post later (when in holidays) some comparisons between me (crit) and me (fast) with both casting in same zone. Was waiting to have a good Lyceum one, but right now, I haven't got it. Anyway, I know that I increased my DPS a lot, and it is still growing. One of the big advantages is that I can control agro much better, when pally is not here (or when protecting someone else ! shame) [we have only ONE pally]<div></div>

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>some day ill try goin fast casting aas, but the damage i can push out with str / wis right now i wouldnt really wanna change it up heh</DIV> <DIV>i can parse 2k+ most of the time (higher if its an aoe fight with 3+ mobs) with str / wis, ring of the 4 winds, dagger pet, time compression a lot of the time and my relic robe for lowering ice nova recast to 30.5s</DIV> <DIV>its prolly the best setup i can think of due to the massive high hits, tons of crits (sit at like 20-22% crit chance self buffed, too lazy to log on and check heh)</DIV> <DIV>but having a lot of speed casting buffs / gear</DIV> <DIV>once i actually get some EoF AAs ill be interested in seeing what i can do, im a slacker / have to play other characters for a lot of raids so i only got 65 eof aas hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HomeChicken wrote:<BR> <DIV>some day ill try goin fast casting aas, but the damage i can push out with str / wis right now i wouldnt really wanna change it up heh</DIV> <DIV>i can parse 2k+ most of the time (higher if its an aoe fight with 3+ mobs) with str / wis, ring of the 4 winds, dagger pet, time compression a lot of the time and my relic robe for lowering ice nova recast to 30.5s</DIV> <DIV>its prolly the best setup i can think of due to the massive high hits, tons of crits (sit at like 20-22% crit chance self buffed, too lazy to log on and check heh)</DIV> <DIV>but having a lot of speed casting buffs / gear</DIV> <DIV>once i actually get some EoF AAs ill be interested in seeing what i can do, im a slacker / have to play other characters for a lot of raids so i only got 65 eof aas hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>heh with time compression and troub im sitting at over 46% spell haste.  with fire line in eof (tested in beta but not on live) I turn into a freakin uzzie.<BR></P>

[Demens]

In my exp agility beats str in groups/solo.  mobs die way to fast to get many spells in otherwise.Raid wise agility lines can parse just as high as strength without the spike damage the problem i have is mana useage. On the agility line i find it impossible to maintain mana at an acceptable level across the raid. Trash is fine with a little aggresive regen in between but longer names it really starts to hurt.<div></div>

[SacDaddy420]

<div></div>  Rock on Ailees!    I like ya,  I've always liked your tone on these boards, and I'm happy for ya.   Thats an awesome feeling everytime the parse is posted and you're on top.  WTG  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But now I'm gonna defend my style...............STR/WIS     First off,  no offense, but your other wizards need to focus a lil more, lol.    I was parsing 700 when I was T5. Second, lets say I was in PP:tR  on those huge encounters....   Catalyst aint THAT slow of a recast.  I've spent alot of time with the skill,  and I can have it up just about any time I want it to be.  Encounter begins, I unleash....1 rending icicles on whatever poor sucker is targeted. Icesheild,  cata+ FS then my macro'd Iceshape + Frigid Gift: Glacial Winds, Electryfying Flash, Firestorm, tossin in Icesheild, then my macro'd Fireshape + Inferno Surge, (Forge of Ro here if I got that "feelin" it's gonna be useful), Glacial Winds, Elec Flash, Firestorm.  Any fools left by now are gonna get lined up with my cata+FS Fusion.  Thats just me though  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   edit:    To that guy above me.    The reason the mobs are dying so fast in groups is cuz I'm the one takin 80% of their life with one nova    <div></div><p>Message Edited by SacDaddy on <span class=date_text>12-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 AM</span>

[Melseb]

<div></div>Oops.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Melseb on <span class=date_text>12-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[ailees]

<div><blockquote><hr>SacDaddy wrote:<div></div>  Rock on Ailees!    I like ya,  I've always liked your tone on these boards, and I'm happy for ya.   <font color="#66ff33">thanks a lot...  </font>    First off,  no offense, but your other wizards need to focus a lil more, lol.    I was parsing 700 when I was T5.<font color="#66ff33">true, they are not interested in DPS as I am. But don't forget that in a zone like PP the return, you must be focused at 150% to have DPS, if not, you'll cast too late.</font> Second, lets say I was in PP:tR  on those huge encounters....   Catalyst aint THAT slow of a recast.  I've spent alot of time with the skill,  and I can have it up just about any time I want it to be.  Encounter begins, I unleash....1 rending icicles on whatever poor sucker is targeted. Icesheild,  cata+ FS then my macro'd Iceshape + Frigid Gift: Glacial Winds, Electryfying Flash, Firestorm, <font color="#66ff33"> 75% of the fights are around 30/40 sec, you will NOT cast all that ! lots of wizards are not trained at AE fights, Forge of Ro is mandatory, Firestorm as well (and I have 3 points into it, to increase radius) Glacial wind also.The faster you cast Fusion the more you increase damages. I try to cast it just after FoR. If you are in crit line, use catalyst with firestorm, does much more damages than others. The cold DS is not bad, but does much less damages than AEs of course.Well, you know all that ! but what I mean is that catalist cannot be up soon enough in fights 30 seconds long.And, for my guild wizzies friends, if you loose a little time waiting for catalist (for fusion...) ypou loose a lot of DPS</font>  Thats just me though  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   <font color="#66ff33">But for standard raids, you are right !When guild will go back to standard raiding in january, I will ask for a Lyceum (or Labs test) with Pally as MT and me in his group. Just to see what we can do with that configuration : FoRo at each begining, then fusion, firestorm, IN and so on.... Could be very nice.. if Pally survives !</font><hr></blockquote></div>

[SacDaddy420]

ya thats cool.   you're actually prolly 100% right.  I dunno what i was thinkin, them mobs would be dead in sec.Allow me to redefine:     What "  I  "  would prolly do in that situation is something more like this..........Preload a catalyst bout 40 sec before the pull....pull happens, Iceshape/Frigid Glacial Winds, cata/FS Firestorm....dieGet a res....talk [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to the warlock....get him pumped and ready to kill.....sit back and eat my McRib sandwich/download [Removed for Content]......<div></div>

[ailees]

<div></div>hehe, yes, I think you are right.And don't forget you can't "precast" a catalist when tank is just pulling like a mad ! those suckers don't have power problems, they jump like a flea from cat to cat...ah, I've been told also this overall DPS was rather low ! lol, it is true, we ain't an uber guild at all ! we are just good.. for a casual one.  To let people see our level : we are able to kill in DT till Tarinax, we did not kill the next one.My solo intelligence right now, without potions is between 580/600, nothing extraordinary, but almost all spells are M1.<div></div><p>Message Edited by ailees on <span class=date_text>12-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:16 AM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SacDaddy wrote:<BR>ya thats cool.   you're actually prolly 100% right.  I dunno what i was thinkin, them mobs would be dead in sec.<BR><BR>Allow me to redefine:     What "  I  "  would prolly do in that situation is something more like this..........<BR><BR>Preload a catalyst bout 40 sec before the pull....pull happens, Iceshape/Frigid Glacial Winds, cata/FS Firestorm....die<BR><BR>Get a res....talk [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to the warlock....get him pumped and ready to kill.....sit back and eat my McRib sandwich/download [Removed for Content]......<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>lol</P> <P><BR> </P>

[knightcycle6am]

<DIV>Seems good, not sure if it's that good for a non-raider though.  What do you guys think?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~~ Limoncello ~~ Crushbone ~~ 55 Fae Wizzy Twink of Bling ~~</DIV> <P>Message Edited by knightcycle6am on <SPAN class=date_text>12-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:43 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by knightcycle6am on <span class=date_text>12-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 PM</span>

[ailees]

my wizy friend who is much more a soloer is using CRITS and I bet he'll also will go later for manaburn. Because he says, and I think he's right, that in solo big nukes are more important than fast ones. You don't need DPS, you need to kill with big nukes. Well, if I understand well what he said, because I am not a good soloer at all, always hated that, and I have very little training into it.Other wizy who is raiding more and  was in crit line is thinking about coming my way, because my parses changed a bit his mind.Now in groups ? well, depends on the tank and other people, then nothing really mandatory IMO.<div></div>

[HerzenFunia]

Imho for solo crits are better, well thats what I feel after I speced to agi line. Tho when you get manaburn things like dont matter that much anymore.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HerzenFunia wrote:<BR> Imho for solo crits are better, well thats what I feel after I speced to agi line. Tho when you get manaburn things like dont matter that much anymore.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yep manaburn is completely overpowered for soloing, and grouping, </P> <P>Its crazy how fast I can kill mobs like carnovingian, and the named ravasect at the end of the tunnel on ravasect island, or x'havis in nest, or any other named mob.</P> <P>its simply wrath of the burning prince + ball of lava + freehand sorc + manaburn = dead named heroic.</P> <P>the only one who takes longer is X'havis, he takes a few ice novas after that because he has so much hp.</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 AM</span>

[ailees]

<div></div><div></div>Illu and Fomka, (or others... i just ask those whom I know to have same AA sorcerer line as mine, and who parse a lot) what wizard AAA line did you choose ?After switching to agility, and being very happy with it (at last I can have true average DPS) I went FIRE first, then COLD. I'm not at 100, then I am just testing, trying to go now to increase FUSION, but I don't know what is the difference between radius and range ! then I do'nt know if it is really worth.And I did not try manaburn yet, because I did not put any AA into shields.I will certainly respec that, but I did not see any parse or stats about those AAs.right now i'm at :sunstrike, irradiate, incapacitate, firestorm 3fiery 2BOL 5Rending 3IN 5EF 1 (going 3)El Fl going 1Fusion going 5<div></div><p>Message Edited by ailees on <span class=date_text>12-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:22 AM</span>

[Nimington]

<div><blockquote><hr>ailees wrote:<div></div>hehe, yes, I think you are right.And don't forget you can't "precast" a catalist when tank is just pulling like a mad ! those suckers don't have power problems, they jump like a flea from cat to cat...ah, I've been told also this overall DPS was rather low ! lol, it is true, we ain't an uber guild at all ! we are just good.. for a casual one.  To let people see our level : we are able to kill in DT till Tarinax, we did not kill the next one.My solo intelligence right now, without potions is between 580/600, nothing extraordinary, but almost all spells are M1.<div></div><p>Message Edited by ailees on <span class="date_text">12-24-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:16 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#9933ff">Dont worry too much about it, I am sitting in the same boat and I can tell you it's amazing how much my dps can fluxuate depending on who we get for the raid.  Taking advise from the boards on casting order has helped alot.  I'm still on str line because frankly I cant keep up with the spells on the haste line.  I tend to keep an eye on too much of the raid as well as run our loot most of the time so the crits give me a better over all dps average.</font></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ailees wrote:<BR> Illu and Fomka, (or others... i just ask those whom I know to have same AA sorcerer line as mine, and who parse a lot) what wizard AAA line did you choose ?<BR>After switching to agility, and being very happy with it (at last I can have true average DPS) I went FIRE first, then COLD. I'm not at 100, then I am just testing, trying to go now to increase FUSION, but I don't know what is the difference between radius and range ! then I do'nt know if it is really worth.<BR>And I did not try manaburn yet, because I did not put any AA into shields.<BR>I will certainly respec that, but I did not see any parse or stats about those AAs.<BR><BR>right now i'm at :<BR>sunstrike, irradiate, incapacitate, firestorm 3<BR>fiery 2<BR>BOL 5<BR><BR>Rending 3<BR>IN 5<BR>EF 1 (going 3)<BR>El Fl going 1<BR>Fusion going 5<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by ailees on <SPAN class=date_text>12-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:22 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>i posted parse data in the manaburn thread here:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=28362&page=7" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=28362&page=7</A></P> <P>I also posted raid dps parses with manaburn starting here all the way up to last parse from FTH with manaburn.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=26172&view=by_date_ascending&page=9" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=26172&view=by_date_ascending&page=9</A></P> <P> </P> <P>I'm at 86 aa' so far specced like this</P> <P>21 power for manaburn</P> <P>5 in rending icicles (cold)</P> <P>5 in ice nova (cold)</P> <P>3 in firey convultions (fire)</P> <P>2 in sunstrike (fire)</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm working my way down to bol, you can avoid incapaciate entirely by taking a hop across(from power line to fireline) through firey convultions, and going down irradiate, and putting 1 point into firestorm to unlock bol.</P> <P>Then its max bol and go back and put 5 points into irradiate and 1 more into firey convultions and once I have that build i'm going to keep it for a few raids to have a solid amount of data and swap to just pure fire/ice and compare.</P>

[ailees]

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div><p>Then its max bol and go back and put 5 points into irradiate and 1 more into firey convultions and once I have that build i'm going to keep it for a few raids to have a solid amount of data and swap to just pure fire/ice and compare.</p><hr></blockquote>hehe I'm just testing the other way, but as you are going faster than me in AAs, I'll see what you compare.Yesterday we went to Hall of Seeing, a necro had <b>lifetap</b>, casting it when mob around 10 percent  ; [and FD if getting agro, [Removed for Content] <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ]very nice results. As it is a zone where we casters (in our guild) can't really go close to mobs because of nasty stun AEs, but lots of solo mobs, I think Manaburn would greatly increase our DPS. </div>

[SacDaddy420]

I've been pure Fire/Ice build since we started.  I really like it.  Parser has shown the a Figid/Iceshape combo almost doubles the damage of the Surge/Fireshape, and it does it for the whole group for 17 sec.   But the Fire line has many nice things for personal DPS.  As far as the Fusion radius thing goes ailees, if you try it you'll find you can be farther back, and worry much less about lining mobs up for a 3 hit combo.   It's definetly noticeable.  <div></div>

[ailees]

<div><blockquote><hr>SacDaddy wrote: As far as the Fusion radius thing goes ailees, if you try it you'll find you can be farther back, and worry much less about lining mobs up for a 3 hit combo.   It's definetly noticeable.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>waoo, my dream... I noticed that there is a range (distance) modification AND a radius one, but I was wondering what it is, does it go from 60° to 65, or 70 ? I hate when I cast fusion on 2 mobs and i hit only one. </div>

[suroktheslayer5]

I did Str/Agi, no one seems to like this set up besides me. I've tried Str/Wis and like the big nukes but it was too slow.  I also use different staffs for soloing, grping and raiding so Agi/Wis with the need for a freehand blows. I manage to be always the top dps in any grp or raid I'm in. I think the most important factor for any dps is how many masters you have. <div></div>

[SacDaddy420]

<div><blockquote><hr>suroktheslayer5 wrote:I did Str/Agi, no one seems to like this set up besides me. I've tried Str/Wis and like the big nukes but it was too slow.  I also use different staffs for soloing, grping and raiding so Agi/Wis with the need for a freehand blows. I manage to be always the top dps in any grp or raid I'm in. I think the most important factor for any dps is how many masters you have. <div></div><hr></blockquote>ummmmm.     ok  fella.      nevermind that just about everybody has every master now</div>

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>except ice flame, im sad now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[ailees]

<div><blockquote><hr>SacDaddy wrote:<div>   nevermind that just about everybody has every master now</div><hr></blockquote>everybody in HIGH RAIDING GUILDS, else oh no ! i know a lot of people who do not have Ice Nova. I have it (gift from my guild ! they are really a nice bunch of kind people), but I still need some, because I never found them under 40 PPs ! firestorm for example (well, anyway i think I saw it <b>once </b>at broker)</div>

[SacDaddy420]

Ya I did totally come off pretty arrogant there.  My bad.  What I meant was, well, these last couple months I've been seein hella, I mean HELLA  wizzy masters drop.  Well at least on AB.  But to put it in perspective I don't even have every master.   I need Firestorm  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  so uh,    about my above post............I was drunk.Oh and I need Ice Flame myself there Olip.    But I got a for shure  scheme on how to get it.   I'll just get bored one week and transfer to Storms.   Np  dude.         That ones in da bag.  Ailees.         You Humble Me  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[ailees]

<div><blockquote><hr>SacDaddy wrote:  Ailees.         You Humble Me  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>you are forgiven my son, go and comit no more sin<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Nightwo|f]

Yea I'm seeing masters galore on my server as well. 6 months ago it was rare for there to be more than one page of masters on the broker (fp+qeynos, since it didn't combine them like it does now). Now there are 7-9 pages of masters. Most of the lesser spells (ice shield, irradiate, cease, ring of frost, etc) can be found for under 10 plat. I remember paying 2-3x as much as they're going for now. Still don't have Ice Nova myself, however I think I've seen it up on the broker 6 times or so in the past two months, so 70 masters are becoming more common, granted a lot of them are from obvious plat botters, guess they figured out the secret that as nek3, and since you dont need an expac to get to it...

[ailees]

Anyway first topic was about trying to see if speed casting is, in pure DPS, better or not than crit casting.Yesterday we were with my guild in Labs,  a zone that I don't like at all (too much AE mobs, I'm a paper tank). But interesting test.2 wizards :1/ me, 700 intelligence, AA fast line ; no protection at all during raid2/ wiz2, 600 intel, AA Crit line ; singer level 66 and coercerI tested for one hour, then I've been bored trying to get max DPS without dying and went slack mode...We were both with a little bit more than 1K PDS average. He was 5 percent better than me. Due to use of <b>fusion </b>: he casted it 15 times, I did only 8 (very risky when you are not protected) : this generates more than double damages (don't forget he's on crit line) but I suppose that if we both were in the same group, I could have cast fusion more.Now about others castings ? we both casted IceNova the same way ; but I casted Ball of Lava and Firestorm almost 50% more ; and 25% more for glacial wind, FoR and Protoferno. And in the long run, with<u> fast pulling as our MT now is doing</u>, the added DPS generated by fast casting is greater than the one added by Fusion and Icenova crits, because his recasting time does not allow him to crit enough to compensate.I hope I can tell you more soon, because we are going to compare more his castings and mine, to see what can be modified in details. But I bet he's going to change his sorcerer AA line.P.S. of course, the intelligence difference also is to be taken into account... but when I looked at average damage of each spell, I have been astonished not to see a big difference, I thought that it would be 20% at least, and it was less than 5. Really weird.  May be due also to him critting a lot, and not me ? <div></div>

[simpwrx02]

If you cast ball of lava and firestorm 50% more than he did, it might just be that he is not chain casting.... also a lot of singers have a spell crit increse of 7.5% and a casting buff of around 5% faster casting.. there really is no way to compare unless you were in the same group and had similiar cast styles, personally i feel that my dps have come up some since i switched from crits to faster casting, but once again i fell that a large portion is based on play style him having the bard( if it was a troub) is a big aspect of zpne wide dps... with a troub i can increase zone wide dps by a few hundred points just the passive proc and hate reduction means you can go all out and when they cast jesters cap on you it is over 40% faster recasts stack with your AAs and i have ice nova recast to almost 20 seconds, it would probably be lower but SoE has a wierd way of actually calculating cast time to increased cast speed.. aka 50% faster recast does not take a 45 second cast down to 22.5 seconds, but it does help a lot.  In most raids i am lucky since i almost always have a ill in group and a little over half i have a troub as well... casting speed becomes insane then...14.4 AAs 5% troub and 25% from ill's time compression total is around 45% faster casting  this is freaking awesome time compression is about the best thing for wizzys since well i dont know what but 10% faster recast 25% faster casting and 50% faster recovery.... is just plain sick if you can get a ill into you group dps will go up dramatically

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> simpwrx wrote:<BR> If you cast ball of lava and firestorm 50% more than he did, it might just be that he is not chain casting.... also a lot of singers have a spell crit increse of 7.5% and a casting buff of around 5% faster casting.. there really is no way to compare unless you were in the same group and had similiar cast styles, personally i feel that my dps have come up some since i switched from crits to faster casting, but once again i fell that a large portion is based on play style him having the bard( if it was a troub) is a big aspect of zpne wide dps... with a troub i can increase zone wide dps by a few hundred points just the passive proc and hate reduction means you can go all out and when they cast jesters cap on you it is over 40% faster recasts stack with your AAs and i have ice nova recast to almost 20 seconds, it would probably be lower but SoE has a wierd way of actually calculating cast time to increased cast speed.. aka 50% faster recast does not take a 45 second cast down to 22.5 seconds, but it does help a lot.  In most raids i am lucky since i almost always have a ill in group and a little over half i have a troub as well... casting speed becomes insane then...14.4 AAs 5% troub and 25% from ill's time compression total is around 45% faster casting  this is freaking awesome time compression is about the best thing for wizzys since well i dont know what but 10% faster recast 25% faster casting and 50% faster recovery.... is just plain sick if you can get a ill into you group dps will go up dramatically<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>50% faster recast math by soe is like this</P> <P>45 / 1.5 = 30s  </P> <P>if you have relic vest + aa flappy + 5 points into cold ice nova is already at 32 / 1.5 = 21s with jesters.<BR></P>

[simpwrx02]

Yup i have the vest with 5 points into Ice nova and i switch out familiar with either the book or the recast reducing one, normally i go with the book for the better crits since i already drain power fast enough adn dont have the final AA in the wis line.  Either way it is pretty nice being able to cast it that quickly, and i think with out jesters cap it is around 28.8 seconds for recast.. that is with time compression.

[ailees]

<div><blockquote><hr>simpwrx wrote:<div></div> it might just be that he is not chain casting....  there really is no way to compare <hr></blockquote>please use CARRIAGE RETURN and paragraphs, it is very unpleasant to read such a text.now for the argument :1/ he told me he was chain casting, May be he wasn't, I can't say, difference seems, I agree, a bit too high for a true chaining.2/ Question was : how can I improve DPS. Of course, the first thing to do is to look at casting style, it is much more important than any other thing. But, after that, you can also try to see (and I agree it is not easy) what would occur if you quit crit line to go fast one. That's what i tried to do. ...</div>

[simpwrx02]

<DIV>Sorry i do suck at writing in these thinga and always forget about enter and new paragraphs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.)  What the other wizzy may consider his casting style chain casting, he may be hitting th next spell as soon as he sees the current one casting, personally i normally have my next spell quered at all times, that is what i consider chian casting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.) To up dps, one of the main things is hate control, aka you can only go so high before you die and a dead wizzy = 0 dps</DIV> <DIV>    Now of the 2 i believe that faster casting/wis would cause a lower chance to draw aggro. I say this since hate decays over time  I saw some one post 10% decrease per tick ( not sure where he got that from ) but anyways with the faster casting you have a smoother dps line, this causing a nice linear hate decay as well.  Now with say crits line and wis line your dps will be more spikey so say one tick you lose say 2000 hate but at the same time you just did catalyst ice nova and it lands for 22k this has a bigger chance for you to get aggro, this assumes you have 20,000 hate , now with out the decay it would be 42,000, but you just basically doubled your hate, and after spell lands your total hate is 40,000 taking into account the decay. Assuming this is over a 30 second time frame  this would be about 800 dps before ice nova and 1200 or so after ice nova lands a huge jump in dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the faster casting you may lose 3000 per tick due to haveing a more constant number of spells landing then you cast ice nova and it lands for 12k now with this say you already have 30,000 hate spell lands with no decay you are now at 42,000 hate then take into account the decay and now only at 39,000 hate.  Sure this example assumes exact same hate before decay takes place.  Also assuming this is over a 30 second tiem frame you are at 1000 dps before ice nova and 1200 after.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now how this will help you is that with the lower spike damage you can better guage what overall dps you can put out with out drawing aggro, once you find the sweet spot try to stay in it overall dps will go up due to staying alive longer, i normally die with in the first few fights from pulling aggro when i raid, if i dont then i only die from a wipe. After a few raids if you have similiar group makeups you can start off knowing about where you can go dps wise, then fine tune it and be making your best possible dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How ever honestly the best way to max dps is through hate reduction so you dont die, there are numerous topic concerning casting order and how to max dps, the wizard parser thread has some good info as wel as the basic raiding wizards guide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this is a little bit better to read, i at least tried this time.</DIV>

[ailees]

<div></div>it is easier to read. Thanks.I agree with you, about fast casting, I wanted to bring some parsing to enhance the idea.this topic was just about giving some parses from a <u>standard wizard</u> : I'm not a 2K average, and not going to be one soon. Not enough intelligence (700 in raid), not enough proc stuff. I don't really care about parses with that kind of average, and I am not sure it brings useful info for beginers anymore.I worked a lot, have done for monthes (and posted some results as well) with just one aim : have the best DPS I can.And fast casting helped me a lot in that.One of the wiz I'm comparing with is going to change AA soon, then we will see if he get more DPS or not ! We also compare what we cast, when, to see how you can increase damages without dying.That's another point : NO DYING, MAX DPSVery often in our raids, we - wizzies of my guild - <u>have not much protection</u>, because right now we don't have pallies raiding, not much singers (one - max) and not much coercers... And in that case, I'm quite sure the only way to be in the 5 1st (... lol..  ) is fast casting.Yesterday we went to Freethinkers. No singer, no pally. I only had a coercer protecting me a bit. I could not start fights with IN or Fusion, of course, but still could manage a 1K+ average (2 assassins 1brigand and 1 necro being better, of course) that my fellow wizards friends could not obtain with their crit line (deadly, of course, for them, without any protection). Well anyway, 2d named got us...  but that's another story.I analyzed for my friend the casting order. Lots of mobs come alone, then glacial wind is not so good, and I cast it less than in lyceum, of course.I start with DS (very often casted before pull), Surge Protoferno and Firestorm.  Now tank has got enough agro, Then I switch to max damage, cease, IN, Fusion (not always up.. )if more than one mob, I start with Forge of ro and Glacial Wind this gives by damage order (DPS average 1033)<span></span>Type          Damage    Hits           Ice Nova         271482    22           Ball of Lava    244547    52           Fusion            103061     6           Surge               95181    60           Firestorm         87687    42           Frost Spikes    80030    51           Glacial Wind    71330    71           Incapacitate     61483    19           Irradiate            43065    69           protoferno        33406    90           Forge of Ro     23354    128           Rending I         15916    63           Char (proc)    11192    16           Strike  Godking    7797    25           crush (i rock)    6428    50           Fiery Conv    4598    28           Flame Surge    4174    48           Sunstrike    4160    2           Ice Lash    3413    7           Electrify Flash    1976    4           Ward of Sages    356    2   <div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ailees wrote:<BR> it is easier to read. Thanks.<BR>I agree with you, about fast casting, I wanted to bring some parsing to enhance the idea.<BR><BR>this topic was just about giving some parses from a <U>standard wizard</U> : I'm not a 2K average, and not going to be one soon. Not enough intelligence (700 in raid), not enough proc stuff. I don't really care about parses with that kind of average, and I am not sure it brings useful info for beginers anymore.<BR>I worked a lot, have done for monthes (and posted some results as well) with just one aim : have the best DPS I can.<BR>And fast casting helped me a lot in that.<BR>One of the wiz I'm comparing with is going to change AA soon, then we will see if he get more DPS or not ! We also compare what we cast, when, to see how you can increase damages without dying.<BR><BR>That's another point : NO DYING, MAX DPS<BR>Very often in our raids, we - wizzies of my guild - <U>have not much protection</U>, because right now we don't have pallies raiding, not much singers (one - max) and not much coercers... And in that case, I'm quite sure the only way to be in the 5 1st (... lol..  ) is fast casting.<BR><BR>Yesterday we went to Freethinkers. No singer, no pally. I only had a coercer protecting me a bit. I could not start fights with IN or Fusion, of course, but still could manage a 1K+ average (2 assassins 1brigand and 1 necro being better, of course) that my fellow wizards friends could not obtain with their crit line (deadly, of course, for them, without any protection). Well anyway, 2d named got us...  but that's another story.<BR><BR>I analyzed for my friend the casting order. Lots of mobs come alone, then glacial wind is not so good, and I cast it less than in lyceum, of course.<BR>I start with DS (very often casted before pull), Surge Protoferno and Firestorm.  Now tank has got enough agro, Then I switch to max damage, cease, IN, Fusion (not always up.. )<BR>if more than one mob, I start with Forge of ro and Glacial Wind this gives by damage order (DPS average 1033)<BR><SPAN></SPAN>Type          Damage    Hits           <BR><BR>Ice Nova         271482    22           <BR>Ball of Lava    244547    52           <BR>Fusion            103061     6           <BR>Surge               95181    60           <BR>Firestorm         87687    42           <BR>Frost Spikes    80030    51           <BR>Glacial Wind    71330    71           <BR>Incapacitate     61483    19           <BR>Irradiate            43065    69           <BR>protoferno        33406    90           <BR>Forge of Ro     23354    128           <BR>Rending I         15916    63           <BR>Char (proc)    11192    16           <BR>Strike  Godking    7797    25           <BR>crush (i rock)    6428    50           <BR>Fiery Conv    4598    28           <BR>Flame Surge    4174    48           <BR>Sunstrike    4160    2           <BR>Ice Lash    3413    7           <BR>Electrify Flash    1976    4           <BR>Ward of Sages    356    2   <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>my top 4 damage dealers(not counting manaburn) is typically ice nova, fusion, ball of lava, frost shield.</P> <P>its rare for me to see surge so high up on the list, I wonder if you neglected frost sheild on this parse as it sits below firestorm too.<BR></P>

[ailees]

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div><blockquote></blockquote> <p>my top 4 damage dealers(not counting manaburn) is typically ice nova, fusion, ball of lava, frost shield.</p> <p>its rare for me to see surge so high up on the list, I wonder if you neglected frost sheild on this parse as it sits below firestorm too.</p><hr></blockquote>yeah, You are right, but :1/ I have an AA somewhere wich makes <u>Surge much faster</u>. (is it time between effects or recast time ? sorry I don't remember) And with your wizard AA choice I bet you do'nt have it. I do'nt have game loaded right now (just getting up... and going to see <i>paprika</i>, japanese movie) to look where it is. Cold line I think.2/ Moreover this example is not totally standard : The parse here is with ONE named and trash mobs (as we wiped on 2d named, we got it to 30%, he'll die soon, [Removed for Content]). Those trash mobs die fast, then if DS is not up when fight starts, very often the 3d DS is lost. As Surge is now faster, the 3d DS is lost more than the 3d surge ! Anyway, as my purpose is to compare fast casting and crit casting, The fact that surge can be higher damages than DS is also another element in the compare process. I think that , if you go cold and heat deep into wizard tree, <b>the new AAs reinforce the idea that fast casting is better for DPS</b>.As most of the guys who parse here are also on a fast casting line, I don't have any other way of comparing than looking at what my fellow wizard in guild raids cast. I also do the same when I am in a pickup group with another wizard. </div>

[Timbers]

Can only add one comment to this thread... we are two wizards in my guild and chosen diffrent path in the aa setup... we played a lot with it and we both always top3 (or if slacking top5)... we have the cruelest assassian, conj and nec on our server to compete with (the assassian we only beat with luck <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  hes parsing an avarge of 2,5k none can really explain how but he rocks... Sooo.. back to my comment.. after all we played around with things only thing we come down to is that it seams that the only real big diffrence between agi and str line, is that the agi dont have the same peak dmg ie easier to avoid agro <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and yes.. we breaking an avarge of 1,5k both of us (manaburn not included) when we're raiding..<p>Message Edited by Timbersky on <span class=date_text>01-15-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:38 AM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timbersky wrote:<BR> Can only add one comment to this thread... we are two wizards in my guild and chosen diffrent path in the aa setup... we played a lot with it and we both always top3 (or if slacking top5)... we have the cruelest assassian, conj and nec on our server to compete with (the assassian we only beat with luck <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  hes parsing an avarge of 2,5k none can really explain how but he rocks... Sooo.. back to my comment.. after all we played around with things only thing we come down to is that it seams that the only real big diffrence between agi and str line, is that the agi dont have the same peak dmg ie easier to avoid agro <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and yes.. we breaking an avarge of 1,5k both of us (manaburn not included) when we're raiding.. <P>Message Edited by Timbersky on <SPAN class=date_text>01-15-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>buffs make the world go round. 

[Dejah]

<P>Here's a question for all of you raiding wizards:</P> <P>Is a short fight (average of 1 min) or a long fight (5 min or longer) more important?</P> <P>As a raiding wizard, comparisons of wizard parses in Labs is of no interest to me, because the whole zone is a cake walk that just about any raiding guild could plow through the zone with their eyes closed.  Everything in that zone dies so fast.  It is just one trash encounter after the next, named included because to me, any fight that you can 2-3 group and still kill it is trash.</P> <P>Compare two different fights:</P> <P>A) A really difficult fight that lasts almost 10 minutes and which you can barely pull out a win. (The Olympics)</P> <P>B) Any named mob in Labs that has a life expectancy of about one to two minutes. (Special Olympics)</P> <P>Which fight would you rather top the parse on?</P> <P>I think it would be much more interesting to see a AGI / STR comparison on the long and difficult fights than on zone wide Labs parses.</P>

[Wayoff]

For the OP:You went into PP:R without a warlock?/sadface<div></div>

[ailees]

<div></div>no warlock in guild at that time ...and, anyway, who needs that ? they just are some casters with AE, some disgusting killer with no subtility, a kind of caterpillar.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by ailees on <span class=date_text>01-30-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:30 AM</span>

[JohnDoe058]

<DIV>I've gone to 50-60 T7 raids, and i've tried both combos.  I can tell you beyond a doubt, that Wis/Agi is the way to go, for raiding.  Here are the major reasons for this assertion:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  The benefit from Catalyst is diminished about 20% due to that being the probability of critting anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Catalyst takes 1.5 seconds total; diminishing its usefullness much further.  And if it's not coordinated with IN or Fusion...it's a waste.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>3.  Crits spike DPS and get you aggro.  And the loss of health from Catalyst isn't helping anything.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Crits don't apply to all of your damage (Frost Shield, procs), whereas spell haste helps you across the board.  Crits don't apply to fun stuff like health-to-power conversions, wheras spell haste helps you get power back faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Spell haste helps you proc more often; crits do not.  PoTM, Frigit Gift, proc gear, etc, can be a very significant portion of your DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6.  Spell haste has added benefits such as being able to use Call of the Overlord and Evac more often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've done the math, and here's what i've come up with:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>11.9% additional chance to crit results in an average of 5.3% more dps: crits yeild an average for 49% additional damage, and keep in mind that the 11.9% increase in base chance to crit, doesn't increase the yield by as much, due to the fact that in an average raid setup, you have about a 10% chance of critting anyway.  So the relative increase in crit probability is (11.9 / 1.1) = 10.8.  So:</DIV> <DIV>     10.8 * .49 = 5.3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But wait...you can't crit on all of your damage (or at least as far as I can tell!), and this bonus doesn't apply to procs.  So the net increase from this is diminished to around 4%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So that's the base increase in DPS, without Catalyst.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as Catalyst itsself, the yield is smaller than you'd hope, due the the drawbacks listed toward the beginning of this post.  I've written various scenarios using a spreadsheet application w/ formulas that I have, and the AVERAGE increase is only around 4%, factoring in the 1.5s loss, and redundancy with your base chance of critting.  Under the VERY best of conditions (FH + Cat + Fusion on 3 targets), it will still only yield around 10-15% real increase in DPS for a typical raid fight, and that's IF you live.  Of course, that situation is uncommon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the average real increase in DPS is around 8% from crit line, assuming that you use Catalyst well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The increase from spell haste, on the other hand, comes in at around 11.5%, since it applies to Frostshield and procs, and doesn't tend to cause nearly as much death to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crack Junkie wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've gone to 50-60 T7 raids, and i've tried both combos.  I can tell you beyond a doubt, that Wis/Agi is the way to go, for raiding.  Here are the major reasons for this assertion:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  The benefit from Catalyst is diminished about 20% due to that being the probability of critting anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Catalyst takes 1.5 seconds total; diminishing its usefullness much further.  And if it's not coordinated with IN or Fusion...it's a waste.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>3.  Crits spike DPS and get you aggro.  And the loss of health from Catalyst isn't helping anything.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Crits don't apply to all of your damage (Frost Shield, procs), whereas spell haste helps you across the board.  Crits don't apply to fun stuff like health-to-power conversions, wheras spell haste helps you get power back faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Spell haste helps you proc more often; crits do not.  PoTM, Frigit Gift, proc gear, etc, can be a very significant portion of your DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6.  Spell haste has added benefits such as being able to use Call of the Overlord and Evac more often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've done the math, and here's what i've come up with:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>11.9% additional chance to crit results in an average of 5.3% more dps: crits yeild an average for 49% additional damage, and keep in mind that the 11.9% increase in base chance to crit, doesn't increase the yield by as much, due to the fact that in an average raid setup, you have about a 10% chance of critting anyway.  So the relative increase in crit probability is (11.9 / 1.1) = 10.8.  So:</DIV> <DIV>     10.8 * .49 = 5.3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But wait...you can't crit on all of your damage (or at least as far as I can tell!), and this bonus doesn't apply to procs.  So the net increase from this is diminished to around 4%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So that's the base increase in DPS, without Catalyst.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as Catalyst itsself, the yield is smaller than you'd hope, due the the drawbacks listed toward the beginning of this post.  I've written various scenarios using a spreadsheet application w/ formulas that I have, and the AVERAGE increase is only around 4%, factoring in the 1.5s loss, and redundancy with your base chance of critting.  Under the VERY best of conditions (FH + Cat + Fusion on 3 targets), it will still only yield around 10-15% real increase in DPS for a typical raid fight, and that's IF you live.  Of course, that situation is uncommon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the average real increase in DPS is around 8% from crit line, assuming that you use Catalyst well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The increase from spell haste, on the other hand, comes in at around 11.5%, since it applies to Frostshield and procs, and doesn't tend to cause nearly as much death to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>frost sheild can and does often crit.

[JohnDoe058]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR>frost sheild can and does often crit.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thx. </P> <P>Do you happen to know if the Crit AA increases this probability, along with our other spells?</P> <P> </P>

[ailees]

certainly, it does, but does not change anything in the fact that fast casting is better in term of RAID DPS than crit line. That's what I was trying to put into parse light.I wonder now if someone made the same comparison with the wizard AA line :is it better to go COLD/HEAT or MANABURN ?Right now, I think that in terms of average DPS the manaburn line is not that good. Some people here tested the manaburn, I am on C:H. But I still need to see parsing comparing both lines for the same wizard. And as it has already been emphasized here, it is very difficult to compare 2 wizards (casting order, number of AAs, use of spellshift, stuff, and so on)<div></div>

[duuf]

Crack Junkie while  I have no argument that WIS is the best choice IMO STR is just as good a choice as AGI and the choice ought to be made on the players needs not some greater than theory that minimizes one and maximizes the other.  I originally specced STR changed to AGI and after a month went back to STR and am happy with my choice.  So here goes______________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________Ive gone to 50-60 T7 raids, and i've tried both combos.  I can tell you beyond a doubt, that Wis/Agi is the way to go, for raiding.  Here are the major reasons for this assertion: <div>1.  The benefit from Catalyst is diminished about 20% due to that being the probability of critting anyway.<b>How about the lil up to 30% increase you can get by combining Freehand and Catalyst.  Proof of the 20% or is that a guess?</b></div> <div> </div> <div>2.  Catalyst takes 1.5 seconds total; diminishing its usefullness much further.  And if it's not coordinated with IN or Fusion...it's a waste.<b>Catalyst can and should be precast before the pull.  Side benefit is that its available for reuse almost immediately.</b></div> <div> </div> <div> <div>3.  Crits spike DPS and get you aggro.  And the loss of health from Catalyst isn't helping anything.<b>Depends on your tank group setup and your protections.  Ours can handle a manaburn so a crit freehand Nova is cake.  Otherwise try throwing a concussive before the cast. The little loss of health is a minor thing in raid situations with group heals going off constantly.  Cant think of a time that it ever made a difference in survivabilty.</b></div></div> <div> </div> <div>4.  Crits don't apply to all of your damage (Frost Shield, procs), whereas spell haste helps you across the board.  Crits don't apply to fun stuff like health-to-power conversions, wheras spell haste helps you get power back faster.<b>Minor point and wrong about the Frost Shield</b></div> <div> </div> <div>5.  Spell haste helps you proc more often; crits do not.  PoTM, Frigit Gift, proc gear, etc, can be a very significant portion of your DPS.<b>Depends on your definition of significant while Procs add a little to my DPS IMO its anything but significant.</b></div> <div> </div> <div>6.  Spell haste has added benefits such as being able to use Call of the Overlord and Evac more often.<b>Nice but what has that got to do with raid dps. Probably makes calling your horse faster too.  Who cares.</b></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>I've done the math, and here's what i've come up with:</div> <div> </div> <div>11.9% additional chance to crit results in an average of 5.3% more dps: crits yeild an average for 49% additional damage, and keep in mind that the 11.9% increase in base chance to crit, doesn't increase the yield by as much, due to the fact that in an average raid setup, you have about a 10% chance of critting anyway.  So the relative increase in crit probability is (11.9 / 1.1) = 10.8.  So:</div> <div>     10.8 * .49 = 5.3<b>My math calculates an average around 6.5%  addtional  damage  and the descriptions is !!.7 additional chance to crit.  Is the normal chance to crit 10 or is that another estimate on your part.  Certainly seemed lower than that before I went STR.</b></div> <div> </div> <div>But wait...you can't crit on all of your damage (or at least as far as I can tell!), and this bonus doesn't apply to procs.  So the net increase from this is diminished to around 4%.<b>My high school math interprets this to mean you are getting about 25 % of your damage from non crittable.  You must be in there with the tanks wailing away.  Not my wiz.</b></div><div>So that's the base increase in DPS, without Catalyst.</div> <div> </div> <div>As far as Catalyst itsself, the yield is smaller than you'd hope, due the the drawbacks listed toward the beginning of this post.  I've written various scenarios using a spreadsheet application w/ formulas that I have, and the AVERAGE increase is only around 4%, factoring in the 1.5s loss, and redundancy with your base chance of critting.  Under the VERY best of conditions (FH + Cat + Fusion on 3 targets), it will still only yield around 10-15% real increase in DPS for a typical raid fight, and that's IF you live.  Of course, that situation is uncommon.<b>10-15% thats more like it and again you have not figured in the precasting of Catalyst </b></div> <div> </div> <div>So the average real increase in DPS is around 8% from crit line, assuming that you use Catalyst well.<b>Nah your flawed arguments have minimzied STR </b></div> <div> </div> <div>The increase from spell haste, on the other hand, comes in at around 11.5%, since it applies to Frostshield and procs, and doesn't tend to cause nearly as much death to you.<b>Proof?  In a typical raid encounter my wiz is gonna cast just as many Fusions, probably as many Novas and these are the meat of our damage.  The next best spell is BOL and you are going to need an enoounter of about 100 seconds before you can make an extra BOL stick.  What you gonna do with your fast recast? Sunstrike?  Also theres the battery problem and the diminishing returns associated with all the other spell haste lines from other toons buffs and the AA lines.  Again you have maximized without proof by just stating that 11.5% as a given. Its not.______________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________In summary its what the toon wants and how well he uses it.  My DPS is on par with any other wiz and I love STR.  With the exception of manaburn the parse almost always reads Duffus Ice Nova and in the hard fights usually says Duffus # 1 DPS.  I love it and recommend it highly.  If you like AGI I'm happy for you but dont trash STR with your prejudice.</b>Duffus lvl 70 wiz Duufus lvl 70 brigDuufuss lvl 70 PallyLEET HAX! (Title conferred by the greatest fury Gutwrench)Everfrost</div><div></div>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>rtwitty wrote:<div> </div> <div>5.  Spell haste helps you proc more often; crits do not.  PoTM, Frigit Gift, proc gear, etc, can be a very significant portion of your DPS.<b>Depends on your definition of significant while Procs add a little to my DPS IMO its anything but significant.</b></div> <div> </div><div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree that STR and AGI are similar for DPS increases not counting procs, and it is a matter of preference and playstyle, but procs are most definately a significant portion of my damage at least.  I only have 4 items that proc damage, and those 4 items easily make up 5-6% of my damage alone which is definately a healthy increase when taking into consideration the 3-4 million damage I do over the course of a raid.  This is also not counting the 12-16% of my damage that Dynamism and Dissonant Note make up, which I tend to proc on average 25% more times than anyone else that gets the buff.  I'd like to see a comparison of a Wiz with Str and a Wiz with AGI in the same zone to see how many times procs fire and how much damage they make up for each Wizard.As for the number of times you can cast BoL with AGI over STR, it's more relevant to compare them over a raid as opposed to single fights, and the haste is more useful in getting other spells off in succession rather than looking at how many times someone can cast a single spell in an encounter.  Someone with AGI can cast on average 10% more spells per fight than someone with Str, but the damage equals out since someone with STR will hit harder a lot more, but the advantage with AGI is that said wizard will get 10% more procs as well which IMO tips the scale in that direction.I'm biased, however, as I play on a PvP server and I have found that spell haste is much more effective in PvP fights due to being able to stun, stifle, and interrupt targets quicker rather than taking a big chunk of damage trying to get a crit Ice Nova off, only to have it resist 2 times as you watch Catalyst expire without proccing.</div>

[duuf]

Yah Razerblade Procs can help but if you are truly getting 5-6 % of your damage from procs then the xtra you are getting from your spell haste is maybe half a per cent, Hardly "very" significant but I will concede it is a factor that helps AGI vs STR.  However does it really "tip the scales."  The whole process is far too dependent on player ability/playstyle, raid setup etc.  Hell even the RNG is far more important and makes it almost impossible to compare the two lines beyond generalities.My point on BOL is that most of the Xtra spells you are gonna faster cast are not going to be the big damagers so applying  a percentage for average spell damage when you are actually going to get extra firings of mainly lower damage spells misstates the benefit of the Spellshaping.  Casting 10% more spells does not  equal 10% more damage.<div></div>So is the benefit of AGI 11.5 %.  Wheres the proof.  Factor in how much dps you are not going to do if you are out of power from the extra casts?Factor in how much dps you lose if you have to power regen?  Factor in the extra health cost from regens (couldn't resist this dig after the Catalyst dig, sorry Crack Junkie : ))STR gives its xtra DPS free of power cost.Again I'm not arguing STR > AGI, what I'm arguing is that AGI is equivalent to STR and the difference if any is minor.The choice should be based on your playstyle.  For me thats STR for you thats AGI.  We are both happy. CumbayahDuffus lvl 70 wiz Duufus lvl 70 brigDuufuss lvl 70 PallyLEET HAX! (Title conferred by the greatest fury Gutwrench)Everfrost

[JohnDoe058]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rtwitty wrote:<BR>Again I'm not arguing STR > AGI, what I'm arguing is that AGI is equivalent to STR and the difference if any is minor.<BR>The choice should be based on your playstyle. <BR>For me thats STR for you thats AGI.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Agreed.  My point is, that the only way yer gonna come out ahead with STR is if you maximally capitalize on the crits, perfecting its use at every single opportunity.  Also, you'd need superb aggro control...this isn't always a luxury that I have.  Maybe you do have that luxury.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rtwitty wrote:<BR><BR>STR gives its xtra DPS free of power cost.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, STR line is more efficient, which is why i tried it out.  But for our typical raid setup, I simply couldn't do as well as with AGI.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>rtwitty wrote:</P> <P><BR>So is the benefit of AGI 11.5 %. <BR>Wheres the proof. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you have MS Excel, and are willing to supply me a valid Email address (via PM), then I'll send the proof to you, along with explaination.  This "proof" is that for almost any cast sequence that I spam into the spreadsheet, the range of benefit from 14.4% haste is fairly tight, averaging 11.5%.</P> <P>I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way...not rippin on anyone for using STR line...it does have it's benefits.  I'm just sayin that you'd be hard-pressed to make it work better, for raids, than AGI line.  Can it be done?  Probably.  But I just find AGI to be much more practical.  Things that you can get away with, like dropping freehand + cat + IN on the pull, would not only get me killed, but booted from my guild.  I think that relatively few raids are set up so well.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Crack Junkie on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 PM</span>

[JohnDoe058]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>rtwitty wrote:</P> <P><BR>1.  The benefit from Catalyst is diminished about 20% due to that being the probability of critting anyway.<BR><B>How about the lil up to 30% increase you can get by combining Freehand and Catalyst.  Proof of the 20% or is that a guess?</B><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Approximation, as with much of my math.  Without knowing your exact cast sequence, what bonuses you will have (like trouby crit +, crit bonus from gear, etc), it's impossibly to be exacty.  Here's how i got 20% (note that i said "about 20%", not "20% right on the button")</P> <P>Looking thru ACT logs of me soloing, with no crit bonuses, i was critting 4-5% of the time, across the board.  I add to that bonus from trouby crit song (4.5%, isnt' it?), cuz most raids i've been on, I'm in a trouby group (once again, there's no way to be exact here, cuz circumstances vary).  Then to that, i add the 11.7% from 8 points in AA crit bonus.  Hence "about" 20%.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[ailees]

<div></div><div></div>I started this topic with PARSES, i mean comparisons between Str and AGI line, same raid, same people.Right now i <b>NEVER never </b>saw parses showing that you can obtain a better result with strength.by "better result" i mean <u>AVERAGE</u> : if your aim is not to have a high average, AA line should be different (strengh+manaburn would be much better).I read a lot of arguing I saw people saying that if and only if you have both a singer and a pally you can obtain nice results.I can admit that.My idea is that the more your raid is pulling fast, the worse your results will be with crit line. That's why I switched, and moreover took in wizard AA line cold/heat to cast faster and faster.I am still waiting <u>to see parses</u> showing that someone switched from agility to strength  and got much better results. Right now, I showed, and still have some parses saying that some wizard friends (and me) got better results (around 20-30%) going the other way.Arguing with mathematical computings is interesting, OK, but the only true argument is to SHOW.<p>Message Edited by ailees on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 PM</span>

[JohnDoe058]

Don't like math, eh?  Well, i love you too.

[ailees]

I don't know if you like me, but I like math. BUT there is a difference between computing with a paper and a pen (or Excel...) and reality.Math gives you an idea, but when you are playing, lots of things can disturb you. taking aggro, loosing time to start casting, not enough mana, and so on.Then I agree with math proof, but I also want to see some comparing parses. And if I have both... I'm happyIf things were always as mathematical computing show them, life would be easier <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[JohnDoe058]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ailees wrote:<BR>I don't know if you like me, but I like math. BUT there is a difference between computing with a paper and a pen (or Excel...) and reality.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lol, i know...just wanted to say that</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> ailees wrote:<BR>Math gives you an idea, but when you are playing, lots of things can disturb you. taking aggro, loosing time to start casting, not enough mana, and so on.<BR>Then I agree with math proof, but I also want to see some comparing parses.<BR>If things were always as mathematical computing show them, life would be easier <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> <P>Oh, I do have parses showing how my performance went DOWN when i switched from Agi to Str lol.  But yeah, parses...well, they don't isolate factors well enough, IMO.  Each raid is gonna be a bit different, which can throw comparisons off, even for the same person using 2 different AP lines.</P> <P>Str CAN be better than Agi...just not for me.  If it works for someone else, then more power to them. </P> <P>I should have qualified some of the statements in my original post with "In my perception,", "for common situations", and "for most people".  Oh well, no one is perfect <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR></P>