Rock jumping exploit or valid strat? [Archive]

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HairyDustBall

12-08-2006, 01:56 AM

Ok heres a moral question for ya:Thare are some heroic names that would be unsolable (to wizys) except for the fact that there is a well placed rock for said wizys to hide behind. You can then jump and start to cast spells on the fall.... This alows you to only be exposed to said mob for a fraction of the time it takes to cast your spell. Would you consider someone doing this exploiting or just being smart?

Elra

12-08-2006, 02:10 AM

Ive been getting interupted when landing, and sometimes while in the air when jumping recently (without moving horizonatlly), but that might be the gnome stilts.Edit - Didnt even answer your question, sorry. If its still possible, id say its just being smart. Makes sense anyway, you jump up, see where the mob is, so you know where to fire the spell.Message Edited by Elrath on 12-07-2006 01:10 PMMessage Edited by Elrath on 12-07-2006 01:12 PM

IllusiveThoughts

12-08-2006, 03:11 AM

Elra

12-08-2006, 05:16 AM

as a side note, really fast spells can still be cast this way, such as cease.

meedni

12-08-2006, 05:50 AM

I solo alot of ^^^ casters and have never once used the rock strat. Just get resists up u need for each named and it's easy. Also having the DMP robe helps alot for the clicky ward :smileywink:<div></div>

Dejah

12-08-2006, 06:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HairyDustBall wrote: Ok heres a moral question for ya: Thare are some heroic names that would be unsolable (to wizys) except for the fact that there is a well placed rock for said wizys to hide behind. You can then jump and start to cast spells on the fall.... This alows you to only be exposed to said mob for a fraction of the time it takes to cast your spell. Would you consider someone doing this exploiting or just being smart? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The encounter system was designed with the idea in mind that a mob can hit you if you can hit it. If the mob is unable to hit you do to it being rooted, stunned, or mezed, then you are fine. However, if the mob can't get to you because you are standing in a location that the mob can't path to, then it is an exploit. Kiting a mob, ie, running around so that the mob can't reach you isn't exploiting, but isn't very practical in EQ2 either. The most common type of pathing exploit is one where the player finds boundaries in the world that cause the mob to run the opposite direction, often times around invisible obstacles, in order for the mob to reach the player. The player will move back and forth across this boundary causing the mob to run back and force around the obstacle, visible or not, that is preventing it from pathing directly to you. The result is that the player can range attack the mob relatively risk free as the mob tries to get to you.

Zyphius

12-08-2006, 07:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HairyDustBall wrote: Ok heres a moral question for ya: Thare are some heroic names that would be unsolable (to wizys) except for the fact that there is a well placed rock for said wizys to hide behind. You can then jump and start to cast spells on the fall.... This alows you to only be exposed to said mob for a fraction of the time it takes to cast your spell. Would you consider someone doing this exploiting or just being smart? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The encounter system was designed with the idea in mind that a mob can hit you if you can hit it. If the mob is unable to hit you do to it being rooted, stunned, or mezed, then you are fine. However, if the mob can't get to you because you are standing in a location that the mob can't path to, then it is an exploit. Kiting a mob, ie, running around so that the mob can't reach you isn't exploiting, but isn't very practical in EQ2 either. The most common type of pathing exploit is one where the player finds boundaries in the world that cause the mob to run the opposite direction, often times around invisible obstacles, in order for the mob to reach the player. The player will move back and forth across this boundary causing the mob to run back and force around the obstacle, visible or not, that is preventing it from pathing directly to you. The result is that the player can range attack the mob relatively risk free as the mob tries to get to you. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That's really not what he is talking about. What he is talking about would be a tactical move. The roots are what is holding the mob down. The rock just helps protect you from casters.

Dejah

12-08-2006, 10:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote: That's really not what he is talking about. What he is talking about would be a tactical move. The roots are what is holding the mob down. The rock just helps protect you from casters. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ahh. If the mob is rooted then I see no problem with using an obstacle to block line of site. Though I'll have to admit I didn't think mobs followed the line of sight rules.

IllusiveThoughts

12-08-2006, 10:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote: That's really not what he is talking about. What he is talking about would be a tactical move. The roots are what is holding the mob down. The rock just helps protect you from casters. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ahh. If the mob is rooted then I see no problem with using an obstacle to block line of site. Though I'll have to admit I didn't think mobs followed the line of sight rules. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> They made a ninja change to mob AI before eof that negated that to most caster named mobs. Previously you could hide behind a rock or tree, pop out and cast a quick root (less than 3s) and the mob would not immidiately use a ranged attack or nuke, allowing you to pop back behind that obstacle, and never get hit because your back out of mobs line of sight. What they did shortly before eof whent live (cant remember exactally when) was make mobs use ranged attacks and spells first (or somehow cycle through them instantly until one begins to cast) so that when you pop out behind the obstacle cast something and move back, the mob is already casting on you, and it will land once your out of LOS, because you were for a brief period in LOS. The same applies to mobs running out of LOS if you casted while they were in LOS, the spell will still land on them. So now you have to pop out and immidiately stifle/interrupt, re-root, or nuke/stun, and pop back into hiding or you will get nuked while your out of LOS. (but just for what ever spell the mob was casting while it could see you)

Brigh

12-09-2006, 10:14 AM

I hate how they removed casting while falling.I tried to gate while falling in KOS and found out the hard way.No patch notes or anything on this crap.

TheBu

12-11-2006, 08:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brigh wrote: I hate how they removed casting while falling. I tried to gate while falling in KOS and found out the hard way. No patch notes or anything on this crap. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Yea it does suck. . as a little guy i often had to jump to even be able to get line of sight ot a mob i could see. I do have to say i have used the tree ducking and rock jumping in the past. But in real life i would have done the same thing... wizards are smart, why are they making this game for any other type of wiz.

JarredDarque

12-12-2006, 02:11 PM

The reason? because we are capable of soloing name mobs a couple lvls above us. Unlike any other class. The reality is, is that numbers wise and tactics wise, it should be perfectly possible for a power efficient nuker to root and nuke a mob to death. The problem is is where the balance with other classes comes in. (befor eI get flamed or something, I do have a T7 wizzy, he is soon to be my main raiding toon) And there is nothing better as a MT, that when me and my group are blazing through a zone towards a named, and once we clear the way, the wizzy comes up and roots the named while we are killing the last trash mobs....Of course, with any luck, that caster forgot to lock his own encounters, so we are kind enough to break his root for him, we FD, let mob reset, then kill our named.

Tanit

12-12-2006, 05:59 PM

<blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<div></div> The reason? because we are capable of soloing name mobs a couple lvls above us. Unlike any other class. <hr></blockquote>Many classes can solo heroic nameds.<div></div>

Zyphius

12-12-2006, 06:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanith_ wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JarredDarque wrote: The reason? because we are capable of soloing name mobs a couple lvls above us. Unlike any other class. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Many classes can solo heroic nameds. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>MOST classes "can" solo heroic nameds... Just takes a skilled player behind the character.

JarredDarque

12-14-2006, 02:49 PM

Surely you jest? I dont mean to call you out...ok I do...but MOST classes cannot solo even con, much less yellow heroics. Paladin are certainly in the top 5 of soloers in the game, and we cannot come close, unless it is an AOE heroic..then maybe. Named? forget it. The only classes who can truelly solo even con triple up are: Wizzy, Conjuror, Necromancer, Ranger IF and only IF you have unlimited space to run around in circle while you kite the mob for an hour. Here are reasons WHY the other classes cant do it. Zerkers/Guardian: Can out mitigate EVERYONE else, but they cannot heal, and fall prety quick. Monk/Bruisers: have minor healing ability, but cannot normally keep the heals up with the mobs DPS. If they can (i.e., weak mob) They run out of power. Pallies: Can keep the healing up for the most part, especially if we burn LoH and our self emergency heal, but we run out of power relatively quick, especially when healing SKs: not enough healing/wards All Healers except Furies: Not enough DPS Furies: cant keep up enough heals when doing enough DPS, and vice versa. Runs out of power either way. With enough FT (say, well over 50) in theory, maybe could keep mob rooted and nuke him, but doubtful. Bards: not enough DPS or Healing. Assassins: in theory..maybe. In reality near impossible, not enough ranged DPS, and cant take a melee hit to save their butt. Brigands/Swashies: They have the best of the melee world. Can mitigate with a plate tank, while avoiding as much as a monk, and doing as much DPS as almost anyone else in the game, and can keep a mob jsut about permastunned...But again, no healing. And have a slight tendeny to run out of power, even with power potions long before the fight is over Warlocks: Simply put..not enough single target DPS. I think that leaves us with your enchanters. For them, it is a major toss up between how badly they get resisted, waht pet is charmed (for coercers) and a good bit of luck. I wouuld put them as outside of the 4 classes Isaid can do it easily, they have the next best shot. Now, there are sometimes exceptions, and there is luck. In the proper fight, I can solo heroics, not a named though. But not with near the efficiency that the 4 classes I said could do it can. And please dont tell me that it depends on the skill of the player. I am quite skilled with my class, and I know many who are extremely skill with their classes, either raiding or soloing. I, and we, know what can, and cant be done.

Zyphius

12-14-2006, 08:06 PM

<DIV>Just because you can't play very well doesn't mean others can't. SK's can out solo me with ease. I've seen it over and over. Monks, Zerkers, Bruisers, summoners, chanters, all outsolo me easily if they know what they are doing.</DIV>

IllusiveThoughts

12-14-2006, 10:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JarredDarque wrote: Surely you jest? I dont mean to call you out...ok I do...but MOST classes cannot solo even con, much less yellow heroics. Paladin are certainly in the top 5 of soloers in the game, and we cannot come close, unless it is an AOE heroic..then maybe. Named? forget it. The only classes who can truelly solo even con triple up are: Wizzy, Conjuror, Necromancer, Ranger IF and only IF you have unlimited space to run around in circle while you kite the mob for an hour. Here are reasons WHY the other classes cant do it. Zerkers/Guardian: Can out mitigate EVERYONE else, but they cannot heal, and fall prety quick. Monk/Bruisers: have minor healing ability, but cannot normally keep the heals up with the mobs DPS. If they can (i.e., weak mob) They run out of power. Pallies: Can keep the healing up for the most part, especially if we burn LoH and our self emergency heal, but we run out of power relatively quick, especially when healing SKs: not enough healing/wards All Healers except Furies: Not enough DPS Furies: cant keep up enough heals when doing enough DPS, and vice versa. Runs out of power either way. With enough FT (say, well over 50) in theory, maybe could keep mob rooted and nuke him, but doubtful. Bards: not enough DPS or Healing. Assassins: in theory..maybe. In reality near impossible, not enough ranged DPS, and cant take a melee hit to save their butt. Brigands/Swashies: They have the best of the melee world. Can mitigate with a plate tank, while avoiding as much as a monk, and doing as much DPS as almost anyone else in the game, and can keep a mob jsut about permastunned...But again, no healing. And have a slight tendeny to run out of power, even with power potions long before the fight is over Warlocks: Simply put..not enough single target DPS. I think that leaves us with your enchanters. For them, it is a major toss up between how badly they get resisted, waht pet is charmed (for coercers) and a good bit of luck. I wouuld put them as outside of the 4 classes Isaid can do it easily, they have the next best shot. Now, there are sometimes exceptions, and there is luck. In the proper fight, I can solo heroics, not a named though. But not with near the efficiency that the 4 classes I said could do it can. And please dont tell me that it depends on the skill of the player. I am quite skilled with my class, and I know many who are extremely skill with their classes, either raiding or soloing. I, and we, know what can, and cant be done. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> zerkers have the dps to take down heroics before they kill them, and can solo white/yellows in good gear. SK's can solo blue heroics quite easily with good tactics / gear, they have plenty of lifetaps heals/wards to stay up and enough dps to burn the mob down quickly. Monks bruisers can take out caster named as long as they have the resist gear to do so, but mele mobs they struggle on blue's or higher. wardens can solo things the other healers can only dream of, and now that furies get a root so can furies. bards do not = soloing class, its painful and slow. swash / brigs can solo yellow heroics, seen this with my own eyes, takes good tactics and the right encounters. warlocks can solo the same things wizards can, that is rubbish. coercers are THE premier solo class, they can solo any heroic instance in the game, no other class can claim that feat. Illusionists have it tougher but they can still solo heroics as long as the mobs aren't immune to mez.

Tanit

12-15-2006, 12:21 AM

<blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<div></div>bla bla bla<hr></blockquote>Incompetent players won't be soloing much no, but almost all of those classes you mentioned can solo very well in the hands of a good player.<div></div>

JarredDarque

12-15-2006, 03:08 AM

<DIV>Do me a favor long onto my server, Unrest, and randomly ask almost ANY lvl 70 IF I , Jarred, knows how to play a Paladin, and if I know my class in and out. You will get the answer from 99% of the people on the server (the other 1% of the people play so bad I have kicked them from groups). And while I may not be the best player on a 70 zerker, a brigand, or SK, I can play the class pretty well, and all toons in raid gear. There is always the plain dumb luck chance. If you saw a guy solo a yellow heroic 5 times, chances are is that you didnt see the 95 times that he died tryin to do it to.</DIV>

Zyphius

12-15-2006, 03:29 AM

<DIV>I log onto Unrest every day... Check the sig bub...</DIV> <DIV>I still see all the classes that YOU "think" can't solo heroics do exactly what you seem to "think" they can't do.</DIV> <DIV>I can't help it if you can't do it... I can't do it like some other wizards can, but I am getting better with my tactics.</DIV> <DIV>Try getting better with yours? Might help you see the light... i dunno...</DIV>

whytakemine

12-18-2006, 12:36 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> JarredDarque wrote: <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> zerkers have the dps to take down heroics before they kill them, and can solo white/yellows in good gear. SK's can solo blue heroics quite easily with good tactics / gear, they have plenty of lifetaps heals/wards to stay up and enough dps to burn the mob down quickly.This was true of well geared toons pre-EoF for some named, but I haven't seen them solo'ing any white or yellow named with the mit changes. It wouldn't surprise me if SK's still can though. Monks bruisers can take out caster named as long as they have the resist gear to do so, but mele mobs they struggle on blue's or higher.I have a bruiser, but she's only 44. I can take some blue caster named, green melee named, but can't think of anything higher. With higher level and better gear you're probably about right. wardens can solo things the other healers can only dream of, and now that furies get a root so can furies.There was a big fight over this in the <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=115694" target=_blank>combat forum</a>. I'd like to see the fury in action these days. With enough FT I bet they can kick some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. bards do not = soloing class, its painful and slow. swash / brigs can solo yellow heroics, seen this with my own eyes, takes good tactics and the right encounters.Since the mit changes? You're talking named right? warlocks can solo the same things wizards can, that is rubbish.Seems like they should mostly be able to. They get less DD and more DoT's. We all know what DoT's do to roots. That being said, I don't see warlocks out farming named. Of course, there aren't really that many of them either. coercers are THE premier solo class, they can solo any heroic instance in the game, no other class can claim that feat. Illusionists have it tougher but they can still solo heroics as long as the mobs aren't immune to mez.I have a coercer, and I'll agree I can solo anything that can be mezzed. However, it might take me until the server reset. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Most of our dps comes from our pets. In bonemire we have an extremely good one (arguably our best), so if you see a coercer solo'ing named that's probably where it's at. Take the nest - yes it's been solo'd by a few coercers. However, they reported that JUST the last named took <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=14983#M14983" target=_blank>about 40 minutes</a>. Not a very good time investment really. We also can't solo every heroic instance, there are a lot that because of the mechanics of the fight or other reasons can't be done. <hr></blockquote>Lots of classes can solo named, but almost every farmer I see out there (while farming myself) has been a wizzie. For a while I was putting them on my friends list and I had at least half a dozen wizzies listed, one conjuror, and one coercer (besides myself). Granted part of this is going to be the number of people playing the class, and the fact that I'm mostly relegated to the bonemire, but you have to admit that wizzies are one of the strongest solo'ers out there.</div>

Judist

12-18-2006, 05:04 PM

All Healers except Furies: Not enough DPS Dont forget a mastered defiler can cut a mobs DPS down to 1/4th with debuffs. Pull with fear, land 6 debuffs and go toe-to-toe with the good'ol blackscale maul. And while we may be in chain, if its all fabled thats some pretty good mit. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Message Edited by BeatinGuts on 12-18-2006 04:05 AM