The new INT curve, and a ninja nerf to Ice Nova and Apocalypse? [Archive]

Glenolas

12-05-2006, 08:22 PM

<DIV> I posted this in the Combat forum yesterday, so that non sorcerers would see it, and intended to crosspost to wizard and warlock forums for the reason that many here do not read the combat forum and this is very pertinent to sorcerers. I'm just now getting to it. Curious about how my wizard spells made the transition to EoF, I did some before and after experiments. Since I had been INT capped, I was interested in growth from there upward. This chart should work for all mages, probably works for other damage ranges vs other primary stats, and the surprises at the end may be there for everyone too. First, a chart of damage increase vs additional INT, starting at the old INT cap of 510. Whatever your damage ranges measure at 510, they will be 1% higher at 533, 2% higher at 556, etc. Refer to the chart. It does not matter if it's an Apprentice I or a Master II spell, damage just scales upward per the chart as you add INT. The chart provides insight into how useful adding more INT may be to you. INT % of INT=510 +INT to increase damage value damage by 1% 510 100% 533 101% 23 556 102% 23 581 103% 25 INT increases rounded to 608 104% 27 nearest integer number 635 105% 27 666 106% 31 699 107% 33 734 108% 35 772 109% 38 814 110% 42 ....1070 ~114% I run out of ability to add INT well before the new cap, but a rough projection of the curve shows it will reach the neighborhood of 114% at the new cap of 1070, referencing to the old INT cap of 510 as the baseline. Next I measured the spell reduction factor to see where my spells fell now, and thus how much of the 114% is achieveable. There HAS to be reduction in damage value when switching to the new curve, since they'd announced the diminishing returns curve would cross the old constant slope curve at 40% of the new cap, which is 428. If you were above 428 when EoF was launched, as was everyone who was capped, your damage had to drop for any given value of INT. That's how diminishing returns works when you are above the crossover point. You'd have to make up the difference. All that was left was to measured the drop. I tested my top 10 damage dealing spells. Six got what I'd call the "normal" reduction, to 98.2% of their pre EoF damage range. To get back to the old damage level, INT has to be increased to 542. "Normal" is my label, chosen because most of my spells on both the wizard and warlock got that reduction from the pre EoF values. I expected all spells to have that factor. 32 more INT isn't too bad a deal, and from then on it is gravy, per the above chart. Not a lot of gravy, but still, more than zero. However it does mean that none of those spells could ever reach the 114% level, since they'd started 1.8% in the hole. Just subtract 1.8% from the center column above, and you'd be right on the new values. Bottom line so far: If you work hard, digging up a mere 560 more INT, and stagger to the 1070 INT cap, you'll do a whopping 12% more damage. All this misery for so little gain. But hold the phone. There's a hidden surprise. 3 of my spells, including the high damage Ice Nova, had double the "normal" setback. They were dropped back to 96.4% of their pre EoF value. I have get to 594 INT just to get back to my pre EoF damage levels. A quick check of my Warlock revealed the same thing. Most spells got the normal reduction noted above, caused by the new curve, but Apocalypse, the Warlock's class defining spell, got the double nerf, being set back to 96.4% of it's pre EoF value. It too requires INT to be raised to 594 to get back to it's pre EoF damage value. Two other wizard spells, Rending Icicles and Firestorm, were similarly nerfed. Both need 594 INT to get back to pre EoF. I have not checked all of the Warlock spells yet, but Apocalype shows the nerf is pervasive. This has to be a deliberate nerf, not incidental to changing over to the new INT progress curve. The math works the same for all spells. If you take the face value of any spell and apply it to the new curve, it will come out 98.2% at INT = 510. Someone had to deliberately change the ranges of the spell downward to get it to drop to 96.4%. It can't be a coincidence that both Ice Nova AND Apocalypse got the same exact bonus nerf. The DEV's pay religious attention to those two spells to keep Wiz's and Warlocks from whining about their damage differences. So whichever coder did it was aware of that and nerfed both equally. Update to the bottom line: If you work hard and do good, and finally get to 1070 INT, you'll do 10% more damage with your class defining spell. In the mean time they just ate 84 of your over-the-old-cap INT getting it back to where you were before EoF launched. Would some DEV care to elaborate on why the Sorcerer Class defining spells took a bonus nerf, and why it was disguised under the "diminishing returns" smoke screen? Should I feel "balanced" now, or just "diminishingly returned"? For players who have previously recorded the damage ranges for their spells at the old cap of 510, now is a good time to dress down to 510 of your prime stat and check your new damage ranges against that value. Unless there is a class difference going on in this "diminishing returns" business (which would cause a whole different kind of uproar), everyone in the game should see the same reduction on their damage values at INT=510, to something around 98.2% of their preEoF level. If much below that, you've gotten "balanced" too. Welcome to the club. Glenolas Level 70 Wizard, Warlock,</DIV> Message Edited by Glenolas on 12-05-2006 07:25 AMMessage Edited by Glenolas on 12-05-2006 07:28 AM

IllusiveThoughts

12-05-2006, 08:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Glenolas wrote: <DIV> I posted this in the Combat forum yesterday, so that non sorcerers would see it, and intended to crosspost to wizard and warlock forums for the reason that many here do not read the combat forum and this is very pertinent to sorcerers. I'm just now getting to it. Curious about how my wizard spells made the transition to EoF, I did some before and after experiments. Since I had been INT capped, I was interested in growth from there upward. This chart should work for all mages, probably works for other damage ranges vs other primary stats, and the surprises at the end may be there for everyone too. First, a chart of damage increase vs additional INT, starting at the old INT cap of 510. Whatever your damage ranges measure at 510, they will be 1% higher at 533, 2% higher at 556, etc. Refer to the chart. It does not matter if it's an Apprentice I or a Master II spell, damage just scales upward per the chart as you add INT. The chart provides insight into how useful adding more INT may be to you. INT % of INT=510 +INT to increase damage value damage by 1% 510 100% 533 101% 23 556 102% 23 581 103% 25 INT increases rounded to 608 104% 27 nearest integer number 635 105% 27 666 106% 31 699 107% 33 734 108% 35 772 109% 38 814 110% 42 ....1070 ~114% I run out of ability to add INT well before the new cap, but a rough projection of the curve shows it will reach the neighborhood of 114% at the new cap of 1070, referencing to the old INT cap of 510 as the baseline. Next I measured the spell reduction factor to see where my spells fell now, and thus how much of the 114% is achieveable. There HAS to be reduction in damage value when switching to the new curve, since they'd announced the diminishing returns curve would cross the old constant slope curve at 40% of the new cap, which is 428. If you were above 428 when EoF was launched, as was everyone who was capped, your damage had to drop for any given value of INT. That's how diminishing returns works when you are above the crossover point. You'd have to make up the difference. All that was left was to measured the drop. I tested my top 10 damage dealing spells. Six got what I'd call the "normal" reduction, to 98.2% of their pre EoF damage range. To get back to the old damage level, INT has to be increased to 542. "Normal" is my label, chosen because most of my spells on both the wizard and warlock got that reduction from the pre EoF values. I expected all spells to have that factor. 32 more INT isn't too bad a deal, and from then on it is gravy, per the above chart. Not a lot of gravy, but still, more than zero. However it does mean that none of those spells could ever reach the 114% level, since they'd started 1.8% in the hole. Just subtract 1.8% from the center column above, and you'd be right on the new values. Bottom line so far: If you work hard, digging up a mere 560 more INT, and stagger to the 1070 INT cap, you'll do a whopping 12% more damage. All this misery for so little gain. But hold the phone. There's a hidden surprise. 3 of my spells, including the high damage Ice Nova, had double the "normal" setback. They were dropped back to 96.4% of their pre EoF value. I have get to 594 INT just to get back to my pre EoF damage levels. A quick check of my Warlock revealed the same thing. Most spells got the normal reduction noted above, caused by the new curve, but Apocalypse, the Warlock's class defining spell, got the double nerf, being set back to 96.4% of it's pre EoF value. It too requires INT to be raised to 594 to get back to it's pre EoF damage value. Two other spells, Rending Icicles and Firestorm, were similarly nerfed. All need 594 INT to get back to pre EoF. I have not checked all of the Warlock spells yet, but Apocalype shows the nerf is pervasive. This has to be a deliberate nerf, not incidental to changing over to the new INT progress curve. The math works the same for all spells. If you take the face value of any spell and apply it to the new curve, it will come out 98.2% at INT = 510. Someone had to deliberately change the ranges of the spell downward to get it to drop to 96.4%. It can't be a coincidence that both Ice Nova AND Apocalypse got the same exact bonus nerf. The DEV's pay religious attention to those two spells to keep Wiz's and Warlocks from whining about their damage differences. So whichever coder did it was aware of that and nerfed both equally. Update to the bottom line: If you work hard and do good, and finally get to 1070 INT, you'll do 10% more damage with your class defining spell. In the mean time they just ate 84 of your over-the-old-cap INT getting it back to where you were before EoF launched. Would some DEV care to elaborate on why the Sorcerer Class defining spells took a bonus nerf, and why it was disguised under the "diminishing returns" smoke screen? Should I feel "balanced" now, or just "diminishingly returned"? For players who have previously recorded the damage ranges for their spells at the old cap of 510, now is a good time to dress down to 510 of your prime stat and check your new damage ranges against that value. Unless there is a class difference going on in this "diminishing returns" business (which would cause a whole different kind of uproar), everyone in the game should see the same reduction on their damage values at INT=510, to something around 98.2% of their preEoF level. If much below that, you've gotten "balanced" too. Welcome to the club. Glenolas Level 70 Wizard, Warlock,</DIV> Message Edited by Glenolas on 12-05-2006 07:25 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> your math is wrong, you need 580 int to reach the same damage level as 510 int pre-eof.

Glenolas

12-06-2006, 04:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: your math is wrong, you need 580 int to reach the same damage level as 510 int pre-eof. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry...there is no math to it. Just read the character's persona screen for the INT value, and read the spell icons on the hotbar for the damage range at that INT value. Take off a piece of armor, and look again. The spell icon will have changed to the damage range for your new INT value. In anticipation of that, and because I rebaseline my characters at every expansion, I made sure all my spells were corrected to the last day pre EOF on my spreadsheet, which was INT capped at 510. They were, and they had not changed in months The next day I just took off armor and buffs until I was at INT = 510, and read the spell icon damage values, and compared with the spreadsheet from the night before. Most were down to 98.2 %, but Ice Nova, Rending Icicles, and Firestorm were all down to 96.4%. Next I added INT in steps, to build the curve, and to re-establish where (INT level) they all got back to the pre EoF value. No math here either, just add INT until you get the old spell value on the icon. Everyone has a few pieces of armor they can juggle to dial in any INT value they need for the test. Again, no math, just read from the spell icons. Answer...for 6 of them, INT = 542. For the other 3, it was 594. That made me go check the Warlock, which also had some spells at the INT=542 recovery point, and Apocalypse at the 594 level. I only tested 7 of the Warlock spells, so the jury is out on a few of them until I get to it. Yes, I did see your post a week earlier about 580 being the new value for ALL spells to get back to normal, but since I knew it to be in error, I attritubed it to your having computed in during beta and not having caught the new curve they put out at launch. If fact, NO spell is at it's pre EoF damage level at INT = 580. 6 of the wizard spells are already at 101% and 3 haven't made it back to evenoF. Glenolas