Manaburn verses Lifeburn.

[Aeg]

<DIV>Lately, i have been trying to decide whether it is worth it for me to get manaburn but it is flawed in ways most people on this forum know. there are alot of flaws to manaburn, as im sure almost everyone on this forum realizes. on raids, manaburn will cause insane spike agro and cause the caster to almost certainly take instant agro and not be able to lose it, not only that, but if do survive, you will be left with no mana which causes the rest of your DPS to stop immediately. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necromancers get an ability called 'Lifeburn' it is on the same recast as manaburn, except it is a huge dot effect that uses the casters HP instead of mana. if used correctly, the necromancer can use it and get damage over time, they can also negate the effects of lifeburn by having a healer heal them as their hp goes down. lifeburn causes damage over time instead of instant damage that manaburn does, but the best part about it is that it doesnt effect the necros DPS at all. necros who use it can still have their pet attack the mob, and they can also continue to cast dots and still have almost near full power at all times due to their arch lich ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>necros do damage easier with their pet, they dont have to work as hard to do the same damage (or in most cases more damage) than wizards do, but they also get an ability which is in my opinion 10 times better than manaburn.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>while lifeburn may not do the same amount of damage as manaburn, it still gets the job done, lifeburn also has almost a 100% chance to do all of the damage too most of the time because necros usually sit at 100% hp. if a wizard wants to end a fight with manaburn, he will inheritly do less damage because he doesnt have 100% power. wizards cannot use manaburn until the target is at 50% hp, and by then the wizard should be at least around 60-70% mana. lifeburn amounts to about the same amount of damage as manaburn, less agro, doesnt [Removed for Content] caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necros already can easily outdamage wizards with their pets in AE fights and in single target fights without lifeburn, with lifeburn, necros are doing about 200 dps more than me per fight on my best day. i have all masters, i am the best geared wizard on the server and i know my class like the back of my hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts? Opinions?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Prattic]

<P>Lifeburn is allowing our guild necro to parse 3000+ DPS on every second pull, and the best part is that his mana never goes below 95%.</P> <P>This game is so messed up.</P>

[Aeg]

<DIV>not only that, but almost every one of a necro's spells is a dot, and the sol ro cloak works on each tick of a dot, meaning that we do less damage with sol ro cloak than necros do overall. i thought sol ro was suppose be for wizards?</DIV>

[KillerMojo]

<P>Lifeburn is better then manaburn but it's not super.   You run the risk of dying as it eats your health.  There should be no way a necro should be a wizard unless the mob is immune to heat/cold or both.  </P> <P>Fomka and Illusive have posted many times in the Parse thread showing necros and conjies behind by several hundred, if not a thousand or more, DPS.  I am not sure if they are fully fabled and mastered out or not, but i don't think lifetap is going to make a 1000dps difference.  Sorry.</P> <P>As for the gods; no where did it say that Sol Ro was a wizard god.  There are gods for casters, gods for healers, and then gods for scouts/fighters.  Sol Ro, is the best for any DPS spell casting class, i.e. necro, conjie, wizard, warlock.  As much as the cloak benefits the necro's and conjies, the blessing favor wizards by far.</P>

[Aeg]

lifeburn easily makes a 200-300 damage differance. and necros are very easily able to keep up with wizards or outparse them.

[Dextera]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <P>Lifeburn is better then manaburn but it's not super.   You run the risk of dying as it eats your health.  There should be no way a necro should be a wizard unless the mob is immune to heat/cold or both. </P> <P>Fomka and Illusive have posted many times in the Parse thread showing necros and conjies behind by several hundred, if not a thousand or more, DPS.  I am not sure if they are fully fabled and mastered out or not, but i don't think lifetap is going to make a 1000dps difference.  Sorry.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Summoner's can currently parse over Sorcerers easily in raid fights (especially in multi-mob encounters), and the added benefit of the Sol Ro Cloak is increasing their DoT-based DPS even more. I believe that SOE has done a good job upping Sorcerer DPS, there is still some balancing issues present with other T2 DPS classes, such as Rogues and Summoners.

[Victicu]

<div><blockquote><hr>KillerMojo wrote:<div></div> <p>Fomka and Illusive have posted many times in the Parse thread showing necros and conjies behind by several hundred, if not a thousand or more, DPS.  I am not sure if they are fully fabled and mastered out or not, but i don't think lifetap is going to make a 1000dps difference.  Sorry.</p><hr></blockquote>The summoners in their guild do horrible dps on the parses they show.  In fact most of the parses that illu posts, almost all of his guild does absolutly horrible dps.A good summoner will almost always outparse a good sorcerer.  A good fusion and ice nova crit can put us over them tho.</div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <P>Fomka and Illusive have posted many times in the Parse thread showing necros and conjies behind by several hundred, if not a thousand or more, DPS.  I am not sure if they are fully fabled and mastered out or not, but i don't think lifetap is going to make a 1000dps difference.  Sorry.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The summoners in their guild do horrible dps on the parses they show.  In fact most of the parses that illu posts, almost all of his guild does absolutly horrible dps.<BR><BR>A good summoner will almost always outparse a good sorcerer.  A good fusion and ice nova crit can put us over them tho.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</P> <P>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</P> <P>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.<BR></P> <P>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it </P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>11-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:46 PM</span>

[Dextera]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <P>Fomka and Illusive have posted many times in the Parse thread showing necros and conjies behind by several hundred, if not a thousand or more, DPS.  I am not sure if they are fully fabled and mastered out or not, but i don't think lifetap is going to make a 1000dps difference.  Sorry.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The summoners in their guild do horrible dps on the parses they show.  In fact most of the parses that illu posts, almost all of his guild does absolutly horrible dps.<BR><BR>A good summoner will almost always outparse a good sorcerer.  A good fusion and ice nova crit can put us over them tho.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</P> <P>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</P> <P>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.<BR></P> <P>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'll post a few parses as soon as I return from vacation.<p>Message Edited by Everglow on <span class=date_text>11-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:00 PM</span>

[Victicu]

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<p>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</p> <p>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</p><font color="#ff0000">Sometimes the truth is harsh.  Doesnt matter if they are your friends you guildmates or your mother.  Their dps still sucks.</font> <p>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">My post was in reply to someone comparing summoners on your raid to yourself.  You parse well, your guild members dont.  So it isnt very fair to compare your dps to other people in your raid when they are doing horrible dps.</font></p> <p>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it</p><font color="#ff0000">I didnt accuse you of being subpar.  Nor did i say i was uber.  But here are some parses from Freethinkers for your enjoyment.</font><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class="date_text">11-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:46 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>(00:43) 908989 | 21139.28Conj 96561 | 2245.61Victicus 90312 | 2100.28Assa 89797 | 2088.30Swash 72751 | 1691.88(01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1801657 | 18384.26Conj 202905 | 2070.46Warlock 172737 | 1762.62Victicus 168529 | 1719.68Assa 167396 | 1708.12(00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 909493 | 18947.77Assa 88049 | 1834.35Conj 86498 | 1802.04Victicus 81703 | 1702.15Warlock 80817 | 1683.69(01:41) 2026060 | 20060.00Conj 263769 | 2611.57Victicus 201450 | 1994.55Swash 176570 | 1748.22Assa 176526 | 1747.78This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea</div>

[JohnDoe058]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Can we get a zone-wide ext dps on that one?

[Kamuj]

<P>I always love these DPS arguements.</P> <P>Wizards have already sacrifices healing, hit points, armour, mitigation, pets, etc for DPS. In the end, you guys are still here debating if your DPS even compares to classes who have not made so great a sacrifice.</P> <P>Probably not the best analogy, but I see it like some guy trying to pretend his rice burner motorcycle is as good as a lamborghini because they both go fast.</P> <P>Anyhow, I digress. Please continue debating whether the sacrifices you've made have left you subpar on the one thing your supposed to be good at.</P>

[JohnDoe058]

Kamujin, do you understand what it means to post something relevant?

[Kamuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crack Junkie wrote:<BR> Kamujin, do you understand what it means to post something relevant?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Pot....meet kettle.</P> <P><BR>Actually, this post... <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=13315&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=13315&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A> ...might not have been very relevent as judged by your standards, but I still liked it. </P><p>Message Edited by Kamujin on <span class=date_text>11-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:52 PM</span>

[Dextera]

<DIV>WTS> Off-Topic Trolling</DIV>

[le Rêveur]

<DIV>even without trouba, necros can parse over 2000, seen in several times, usually on a single target/short fight. Conjs, can parse over 1600 with the same set up. While a wiz in those conditions barely hit 1300, that using forge, proto, fusion, nova, ball of lava and having irradiate and our debuff and magic dot on since beginning of the fight.</DIV>

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <P>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</P> <P>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</P><FONT color=#ff0000>Sometimes the truth is harsh.  Doesnt matter if they are your friends you guildmates or your mother.  Their dps still sucks.</FONT> <P>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>My post was in reply to someone comparing summoners on your raid to yourself.  You parse well, your guild members dont.  So it isnt very fair to compare your dps to other people in your raid when they are doing horrible dps.</FONT><BR></P> <P>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it</P><FONT color=#ff0000>I didnt accuse you of being subpar.  Nor did i say i was uber.  But here are some parses from Freethinkers for your enjoyment.</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:46 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>(00:43) 908989 | 21139.28<BR>Conj 96561 | 2245.61<BR>Victicus 90312 | 2100.28<BR>Assa 89797 | 2088.30<BR>Swash 72751 | 1691.88<BR><BR><BR>(01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1801657 | 18384.26<BR>Conj 202905 | 2070.46<BR>Warlock 172737 | 1762.62<BR>Victicus 168529 | 1719.68<BR>Assa 167396 | 1708.12<BR><BR><BR>(00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 909493 | 18947.77<BR>Assa 88049 | 1834.35<BR>Conj 86498 | 1802.04<BR>Victicus 81703 | 1702.15<BR>Warlock 80817 | 1683.69<BR><BR>(01:41) 2026060 | 20060.00<BR>Conj 263769 | 2611.57<BR>Victicus 201450 | 1994.55<BR>Swash 176570 | 1748.22<BR>Assa 176526 | 1747.78<BR><BR>This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, I can show selective parsing too!  I can show some of a wizard putting out 5K dps and conjie putting out 2K.  How's that?   Zone wide would be nice as to not show a bias in posting.  BTW, I like how you only show the top 4 classes.  If this was a raid, 20K DPS is standard for any high end dedicated raiding guild and according to your average over 4 fights I don't see anything super.  For a casual raiding guild to put out 14K dps zone wide is good in my opinion considering they don't have dedicated raiders which means, most times, they don't have optimal raid setup due to the lack of required specific classes showing up for raids to optimize DPS.  </P> <P>There are raiding guilds out there that can continually parse 24-26K zone wide.  As they are possibly 6K higher then your crew (as you are to Illusive's crew), does that mean that your DPS sucks and your conjies/wizards can't DPS?  It doesn't.  It's all relative to the people, crew, experience and playing time a team has.  So before you make a statement knocking someone, or putting someone down, make sure you get all the facts.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:44 AM</span>

[Agraco]

<DIV>"Mom! Mom! Tommy's cookie is bigger than mine!!!!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't even have a necro but it's this kind of whining that gets the nerfbat swinging. Misery likes company, I guess.</DIV>

[Kamuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>KillerMojo wrote:</P> <P><BR>Yeah, I can show selective parsing too!  I can show some of a wizard putting out 5K dps and conjie putting out 2K.  How's that?   Zone wide would be nice as to not show a bias in posting.  BTW, I like how you only show the top 4 classes.  If this was a raid, 20K DPS is standard for any high end dedicated raiding guild and according to your average over 4 fights I don't see anything super.  For a casual raiding guild to put out 14K dps zone wide is good in my opinion considering they don't have dedicated raiders which means, most times, they don't have optimal raid setup due to the lack of required specific classes showing up for raids to optimize DPS. </P> <P>There are raiding guilds out there that can continually parse 24-26K zone wide.  As they are possibly 6K higher then your crew (as you are to Illusive's crew), does that mean that your DPS sucks and your conjies/wizards can't DPS?  It doesn't.  It's all relative to the people, crew, experience and playing time a team has.  So before you make a statement knocking someone, or putting someone down, make sure you get all the facts.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The "facts" would include performance for all types of players. There is little more selective of a bias then to take your sample purely from a "high end raid guild".</P>

[Aeg]

<DIV>i am always between 1-3 in my guild in terms of dps output, but for the past month and a half, it is almost impossible to outdps a necromancer on a single target mob. this isnt because i suck because i play my class in the best way it can be played, ive gotten advice for almost a year now on how to play and i play to the best or near the best that one person could play the wizard class. and still i am regularly outdpsed by a necro, this is 95%, even when he isnt in a group with a troub in it. anyone in a hardcore raiding guild will tell you the same. there is no gimmicks here, only facts. summoners put out more dps easier, and with lifeburn, it is free damage, ensure their place on top of the parse once every 5 minutes.</DIV>

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kamujin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>KillerMojo wrote:</P> <P><BR>Yeah, I can show selective parsing too!  I can show some of a wizard putting out 5K dps and conjie putting out 2K.  How's that?   Zone wide would be nice as to not show a bias in posting.  BTW, I like how you only show the top 4 classes.  If this was a raid, 20K DPS is standard for any high end dedicated raiding guild and according to your average over 4 fights I don't see anything super.  For a casual raiding guild to put out 14K dps zone wide is good in my opinion considering they don't have dedicated raiders which means, most times, they don't have optimal raid setup due to the lack of required specific classes showing up for raids to optimize DPS. </P> <P>There are raiding guilds out there that can continually parse 24-26K zone wide.  As they are possibly 6K higher then your crew (as you are to Illusive's crew), does that mean that your DPS sucks and your conjies/wizards can't DPS?  It doesn't.  It's all relative to the people, crew, experience and playing time a team has.  So before you make a statement knocking someone, or putting someone down, make sure you get all the facts.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The "facts" would include performance for all types of players. There is little more selective of a bias then to take your sample purely from a "high end raid guild".</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I find your last post funny as you seem to have missed the point entirely.  I used a raiding guild as an example to get numbers and do a comparison.  Since you couldn't pull the point from my original statement, let's try again.  DPS is relative to the people/guild/environment you play in/with and to the time that you put into the game, whether it is by aquiring masters, or sifting through parses to find the best casting order.  Because a raid can post 26K DPS zone wide, does that mean that they are necessarily better then the raid that can post 20K zone wide?  NO.  Nor does it make the raid that posts 20K zone wide DPS better then the 14K zone wide DPS raid.  If you would swap some players from the 14K raid to the 20K raid they could do the same DPS, but just don't have the groups in their 14K setup that the 20K does.</P> <P>I am stating that higher DPS is based on optimal groups and joining a guild dedicated to raiding will give you those groups, the experience you need, and the equipment to do it.  I just don't want to hear people bashing by individuals who just can't see past the numbers and take into account other factors.</P> <P>P.S. I said ANY high end raiding guild which means all of them, not just "a" as you have mentioned thus alleviating any bias to "a" particular high end raiding guild.  </P><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:17 AM</span>

[Kamuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kamujin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>KillerMojo wrote:</P> <P><BR>Yeah, I can show selective parsing too!  I can show some of a wizard putting out 5K dps and conjie putting out 2K.  How's that?   Zone wide would be nice as to not show a bias in posting.  BTW, I like how you only show the top 4 classes.  If this was a raid, 20K DPS is standard for any high end dedicated raiding guild and according to your average over 4 fights I don't see anything super.  For a casual raiding guild to put out 14K dps zone wide is good in my opinion considering they don't have dedicated raiders which means, most times, they don't have optimal raid setup due to the lack of required specific classes showing up for raids to optimize DPS. </P> <P>There are raiding guilds out there that can continually parse 24-26K zone wide.  As they are possibly 6K higher then your crew (as you are to Illusive's crew), does that mean that your DPS sucks and your conjies/wizards can't DPS?  It doesn't.  It's all relative to the people, crew, experience and playing time a team has.  So before you make a statement knocking someone, or putting someone down, make sure you get all the facts.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The "facts" would include performance for all types of players. There is little more selective of a bias then to take your sample purely from a "high end raid guild".</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I find your last post funny as you seem to have missed the point entirely.  I used a raiding guild as an example to get numbers and do a comparison.  Since you couldn't pull the point from my original statement, let's try again.  DPS is relative to the people/guild/environment you play in/with and to the time that you put into the game, whether it is by aquiring masters, or sifting through parses to find the best casting order.  Because a raid can post 26K DPS zone wide, does that mean that they are necessarily better then the raid that can post 20K zone wide?  NO.  Nor does it make the raid that posts 20K zone wide DPS better then the 14K zone wide DPS raid.  If you would swap some players from the 14K raid to the 20K raid they could do the same DPS, but just don't have the groups in their 14K setup that the 20K does.</P> <P>I am stating that higher DPS is based on optimal groups and joining a guild dedicated to raiding will give you those groups, the experience you need, and the equipment to do it.  I just don't want to hear people bashing by individuals who just can't see past the numbers and take into account other factors.</P> <P>P.S. I said ANY high end raiding guild which means all of them, not just "a" as you have mentioned thus alleviating any bias to "a" particular high end raiding guild. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats alot of words to not say very much.</P> <P>Anyhow, please keep debating whether your ninja is faster then their lamborghini. I find it amusing on some dark level.</P> <P>I just think you can't toss around the word "facts" when you have a heavy selection bias.</P> <P> </P>

[Nastharl]

Yes i know the abilities aren't entirely comparable but...We can let off a 80k nuke once an hour now... Thats pretty happy of an ability right there. (Necros dont cast fire spells afaik)<div></div>

[Agraco]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nastharl wrote:<BR>Yes i know the abilities aren't entirely comparable but...<BR><BR><BR>We can let off a 80k nuke once an hour now... Thats pretty happy of an ability right there. (Necros dont cast fire spells afaik)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What spell is that?

[Aeg]

<DIV>abcdefg</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aegiz on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[Nastharl]

Look at the thread a few down http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=28519<div></div>

[Aeg]

clearly working as intended.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <P>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</P> <P>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</P><FONT color=#ff0000>Sometimes the truth is harsh.  Doesnt matter if they are your friends you guildmates or your mother.  Their dps still sucks.</FONT> <P>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>My post was in reply to someone comparing summoners on your raid to yourself.  You parse well, your guild members dont.  So it isnt very fair to compare your dps to other people in your raid when they are doing horrible dps.</FONT><BR></P> <P>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it</P><FONT color=#ff0000>I didnt accuse you of being subpar.  Nor did i say i was uber.  But here are some parses from Freethinkers for your enjoyment.</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:46 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>(00:43) 908989 | 21139.28<BR>Conj 96561 | 2245.61<BR>Victicus 90312 | 2100.28<BR>Assa 89797 | 2088.30<BR>Swash 72751 | 1691.88<BR><BR><BR>(01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1801657 | 18384.26<BR>Conj 202905 | 2070.46<BR>Warlock 172737 | 1762.62<BR>Victicus 168529 | 1719.68<BR>Assa 167396 | 1708.12<BR><BR><BR>(00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 909493 | 18947.77<BR>Assa 88049 | 1834.35<BR>Conj 86498 | 1802.04<BR>Victicus 81703 | 1702.15<BR>Warlock 80817 | 1683.69<BR><BR>(01:41) 2026060 | 20060.00<BR>Conj 263769 | 2611.57<BR>Victicus 201450 | 1994.55<BR>Swash 176570 | 1748.22<BR>Assa 176526 | 1747.78<BR><BR>This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can post selective parses from frethinkers too, the 4 mob x3 epics are easy to break 2k on,</P> <P>Allies: (01:53) 1343612 | 11890 [Mauv-Decapitate-17646]<BR>Illu 253672 | 2245</P> <P>Allies: (04:14) 2605605 | 10258 [Mauv-Decapitate-21107] 1st named 4 min fight 1900 dps.<BR>Illu 479631 | 1903<BR><BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 664302 | 13840 [Mauv-Decapitate-15435] 2k on single target<BR>Illu 96549 | 2054<BR></P> <P>Allies: (02:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1696602 | 11464 [Mauv-Decapitate-19578] 4 mob x3 group (single target burn one mob due to off tanking then aoe'ing the other 3)<BR>Illu 314840 | 2142<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>looks like i beat your conj on 2 out of the 4 fights you posted, which im pretty sure the last one was a planeshift.  durations are simmilar to compare.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:16 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:17 PM</span>

[Dextera]

*yawn* at irrational posts.

[KillerMojo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Everglow wrote:<BR> *yawn* at irrational posts.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And make a post about irrational posts is relevent how?</DIV><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>11-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[Victicu]

<div></div>    <blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Victicus7 wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <p>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</p> <p>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</p><font color="#ff0000">Sometimes the truth is harsh.  Doesnt matter if they are your friends you guildmates or your mother.  Their dps still sucks.</font> <p>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">My post was in reply to someone comparing summoners on your raid to yourself.  You parse well, your guild members dont.  So it isnt very fair to compare your dps to other people in your raid when they are doing horrible dps.</font></p> <p>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it</p><font color="#ff0000">I didnt accuse you of being subpar.  Nor did i say i was uber.  But here are some parses from Freethinkers for your enjoyment.</font> <p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class="date_text">11-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:46 PM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote>(00:43) 908989 | 21139.28Conj 96561 | 2245.61Victicus 90312 | 2100.28Assa 89797 | 2088.30Swash 72751 | 1691.88(01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1801657 | 18384.26Conj 202905 | 2070.46Warlock 172737 | 1762.62Victicus 168529 | 1719.68Assa 167396 | 1708.12(00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 909493 | 18947.77Assa 88049 | 1834.35Conj 86498 | 1802.04Victicus 81703 | 1702.15Warlock 80817 | 1683.69(01:41) 2026060 | 20060.00Conj 263769 | 2611.57Victicus 201450 | 1994.55Swash 176570 | 1748.22Assa 176526 | 1747.78This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I can post selective parses from frethinkers too, the 4 mob x3 epics are easy to break 2k on,</p> <p>Allies: (01:53) 1343612 | 11890 [Mauv-Decapitate-17646]Illu 253672 | 2245</p> <p>Allies: (04:14) 2605605 | 10258 [Mauv-Decapitate-21107] 1st named 4 min fight 1900 dps.Illu 479631 | 1903Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 664302 | 13840 [Mauv-Decapitate-15435] 2k on single targetIllu 96549 | 2054</p> <p>Allies: (02:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1696602 | 11464 [Mauv-Decapitate-19578] 4 mob x3 group (single target burn one mob due to off tanking then aoe'ing the other 3)Illu 314840 | 2142</p> <p>looks like i beat your conj on 2 out of the 4 fights you posted, which im pretty sure the last one was a planeshift.  durations are simmilar to compare.</p> <p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class="date_text">11-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:16 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class="date_text">11-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You are pretty dense arent you?I said the people you raid with suck.  People were looking at the conj you raid with and saying conj's suck cause they can only do 1000 dps that you show in your crappy parses.  I showed that conjs can do as much and often times more than a wizard.  I never said your personal DPS sucked, though you get pretty defensive about it.Btw you didnt beat anyone at anything, we have nearly twice the raid DPS that you guys do.

[KillerMojo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR>     <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <P>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</P> <P>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</P><FONT color=#ff0000>Sometimes the truth is harsh.  Doesnt matter if they are your friends you guildmates or your mother.  Their dps still sucks.</FONT> <P>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>My post was in reply to someone comparing summoners on your raid to yourself.  You parse well, your guild members dont.  So it isnt very fair to compare your dps to other people in your raid when they are doing horrible dps.</FONT><BR></P> <P>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it</P><FONT color=#ff0000>I didnt accuse you of being subpar.  Nor did i say i was uber.  But here are some parses from Freethinkers for your enjoyment.</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:46 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>(00:43) 908989 | 21139.28<BR>Conj 96561 | 2245.61<BR>Victicus 90312 | 2100.28<BR>Assa 89797 | 2088.30<BR>Swash 72751 | 1691.88<BR><BR><BR>(01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1801657 | 18384.26<BR>Conj 202905 | 2070.46<BR>Warlock 172737 | 1762.62<BR>Victicus 168529 | 1719.68<BR>Assa 167396 | 1708.12<BR><BR><BR>(00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 909493 | 18947.77<BR>Assa 88049 | 1834.35<BR>Conj 86498 | 1802.04<BR>Victicus 81703 | 1702.15<BR>Warlock 80817 | 1683.69<BR><BR>(01:41) 2026060 | 20060.00<BR>Conj 263769 | 2611.57<BR>Victicus 201450 | 1994.55<BR>Swash 176570 | 1748.22<BR>Assa 176526 | 1747.78<BR><BR>This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can post selective parses from frethinkers too, the 4 mob x3 epics are easy to break 2k on,</P> <P>Allies: (01:53) 1343612 | 11890 [Mauv-Decapitate-17646]<BR>Illu 253672 | 2245</P> <P>Allies: (04:14) 2605605 | 10258 [Mauv-Decapitate-21107] 1st named 4 min fight 1900 dps.<BR>Illu 479631 | 1903<BR><BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 664302 | 13840 [Mauv-Decapitate-15435] 2k on single target<BR>Illu 96549 | 2054<BR></P> <P>Allies: (02:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1696602 | 11464 [Mauv-Decapitate-19578] 4 mob x3 group (single target burn one mob due to off tanking then aoe'ing the other 3)<BR>Illu 314840 | 2142<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>looks like i beat your conj on 2 out of the 4 fights you posted, which im pretty sure the last one was a planeshift.  durations are simmilar to compare.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:16 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:17 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are pretty dense arent you?<BR><BR>I said the people you raid with suck.  People were looking at the conj you raid with and saying conj's suck cause they can only do 1000 dps that you show in your crappy parses.  I showed that conjs can do as much and often times more than a wizard.  I never said your personal DPS sucked, though you get pretty defensive about it.<BR><BR>Btw you didnt beat anyone at anything, we have nearly twice the raid DPS that you guys do.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But yet still no response to my post which shows how one sided you are.  Oh, and yes he did beat someone at something.  He proved his point, which is that a wizard can out DPS a conjie/necro.  You posted parses with DPS, so did he. His numbers were equal if not better.  Which means wizard DPS is => conjie DPS.</DIV>

[Dextera]

<DIV>Irrational logic. <U>We all know that Summoner DPS is still out of whack</U>, whether or not people want to accept that is their choice. <STRONG>It'll be balanced soon</STRONG>, some people will complain, some people will rejoice. The game will be better, and many will move onto other issues to cry about.</DIV>

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Everglow wrote:<BR> <DIV>Irrational logic. <U>We all know that Summoner DPS is still out of whack</U>, whether or not people want to accept that is their choice. <STRONG>It'll be balanced soon</STRONG>, some people will complain, some people will rejoice. The game will be better, and many will move onto other issues to cry about.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You and anyone else has yet to prove the statement you have so underlined.  I know in multi target mobs summoners are better. I know in single target mobs, wizards are better.  But I don't think conjie DPS is out of and how the heck do you think they will soon balance if they don't believe there is an issue with it?

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR>     <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <P>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</P> <P>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</P><FONT color=#ff0000>Sometimes the truth is harsh.  Doesnt matter if they are your friends you guildmates or your mother.  Their dps still sucks.</FONT> <P>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>My post was in reply to someone comparing summoners on your raid to yourself.  You parse well, your guild members dont.  So it isnt very fair to compare your dps to other people in your raid when they are doing horrible dps.</FONT><BR></P> <P>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it</P><FONT color=#ff0000>I didnt accuse you of being subpar.  Nor did i say i was uber.  But here are some parses from Freethinkers for your enjoyment.</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:46 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>(00:43) 908989 | 21139.28<BR>Conj 96561 | 2245.61<BR>Victicus 90312 | 2100.28<BR>Assa 89797 | 2088.30<BR>Swash 72751 | 1691.88<BR><BR><BR>(01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1801657 | 18384.26<BR>Conj 202905 | 2070.46<BR>Warlock 172737 | 1762.62<BR>Victicus 168529 | 1719.68<BR>Assa 167396 | 1708.12<BR><BR><BR>(00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 909493 | 18947.77<BR>Assa 88049 | 1834.35<BR>Conj 86498 | 1802.04<BR>Victicus 81703 | 1702.15<BR>Warlock 80817 | 1683.69<BR><BR>(01:41) 2026060 | 20060.00<BR>Conj 263769 | 2611.57<BR>Victicus 201450 | 1994.55<BR>Swash 176570 | 1748.22<BR>Assa 176526 | 1747.78<BR><BR>This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can post selective parses from frethinkers too, the 4 mob x3 epics are easy to break 2k on,</P> <P>Allies: (01:53) 1343612 | 11890 [Mauv-Decapitate-17646]<BR>Illu 253672 | 2245</P> <P>Allies: (04:14) 2605605 | 10258 [Mauv-Decapitate-21107] 1st named 4 min fight 1900 dps.<BR>Illu 479631 | 1903<BR><BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 664302 | 13840 [Mauv-Decapitate-15435] 2k on single target<BR>Illu 96549 | 2054<BR></P> <P>Allies: (02:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1696602 | 11464 [Mauv-Decapitate-19578] 4 mob x3 group (single target burn one mob due to off tanking then aoe'ing the other 3)<BR>Illu 314840 | 2142<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>looks like i beat your conj on 2 out of the 4 fights you posted, which im pretty sure the last one was a planeshift.  durations are simmilar to compare.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:16 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:17 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are pretty dense arent you?<BR><BR>I said the people you raid with suck.  People were looking at the conj you raid with and saying conj's suck cause they can only do 1000 dps that you show in your crappy parses.  I showed that conjs can do as much and often times more than a wizard.  I never said your personal DPS sucked, though you get pretty defensive about it.<BR><BR>Btw you didnt beat anyone at anything, we have nearly twice the raid DPS that you guys do.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>no bud you just dont get it.</P> <P>1. your first point was "a good conj will ALWAYS out dps a good wizard, but a crit ice nova or fusion will put them over the top"  This logic is obviously flawed as I have show you to be</P> <P>2. your personally attacking my friends, and I will not stand for it nor let you continue to tell me they suck.  They do not suck, they try just as hard as everyone else playing this game.  So what if they dont do 20k 30k 40k dps like your dedicated raiding guild in fully fabled in fully masterd with as optimal set up as possible.  They raid with who ever shows up, yeah thats right we may raid with 10 tanks and still be successful, they dont turn people away because of optimal set up like im sure your raid force would.  so please listen to what people are saying that its all relative.  You also have to understand the faster mobs die the higher OUR (as in wizards) dps will be, fights longer than 2 min we have to take time out of casting spells and start to use that to cannibalize health to power, so our dps drops, what do you think I could do in a zone like lyceum if I never once had to touch my vital conversion, use a shard or heart? or what if we had 3 brigs to constantly have the mob dispatched, ball of lava's averaging 5.5k, ice novas averaging 16k(with out freehand) these are just the little things.  So if I can post the same or even better numbers than your guild can with what you would call "sucky players" what does that tell you about yourself and your conj that is so uber?<BR></P> <P>we're not enemies here so lets just keep the name calling and condescending remarks of my friends out of this discussion okay?</P>

[Victicu]

<div><blockquote><hr>KillerMojo wrote:<div></div> <p>Fomka and Illusive have posted many times in the Parse thread showing necros and conjies behind by several hundred, if not a thousand or more, DPS.  I am not sure if they are fully fabled and mastered out or not, but i don't think lifetap is going to make a 1000dps difference.  Sorry.</p><hr></blockquote>Illusive read that.I posted in reply to that.That idiot is saying wizards parse 1000+ dps higher than conjs.  Clearly that is not the case, and the only reason this person believes that is because the conj you raid with isnt very good.  That is the honest truth.  I posted a couple selective parses showing how close our dps is to summoners when we are both trying.  I didnt post a zone wide because I didnt tell him i might post it as an example, so i have no idea how many fights he was slacking or went afk for a restroom break or drink.Like i said, if i get some good crits i can beat him, otherwise he beats me in DPS.  I stand by that statement whether you believe it or not. </div>

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <P>Fomka and Illusive have posted many times in the Parse thread showing necros and conjies behind by several hundred, if not a thousand or more, DPS.  I am not sure if they are fully fabled and mastered out or not, but i don't think lifetap is going to make a 1000dps difference.  Sorry.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Illusive read that.<BR><BR>I posted in reply to that.<BR><BR>That idiot is saying wizards parse 1000+ dps higher than conjs.  Clearly that is not the case, and the only reason this person believes that is because the conj you raid with isnt very good.  That is the honest truth.  <BR><BR>I posted a couple selective parses showing how close our dps is to summoners when we are both trying.  I didnt post a zone wide because I didnt tell him i might post it as an example, so i have no idea how many fights he was slacking or went afk for a restroom break or drink.<BR><BR>Like i said, if i get some good crits i can beat him, otherwise he beats me in DPS.  I stand by that statement whether you believe it or not.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's funny that you have to resort to name calling.  You want to talk about dense?  Obviously you didn't read my post as I said DPS was dependant, not only on how well you play, but your raid setup.  Think about it for a second, or maybe in your case a couple days and then come back and read the rest of this post.  If he had 1/2 the de-aggro Illusive did, I would be willing to put plat on the fact that his DPS would be higher and be at par with Illusive.  </P> <P>If you want to take my post saying that wizards parse 1K better then conjies as EVERYTIME, then you deeply mistook my post as no where in there did I say that "WIZARDS ALWAYS POST 1K HIGHER DPS THEN SUMMONERS".  In his example lifetap makes no difference.  It's not to say that every second or third parse lifetap is going to make a difference in a raid where GROUPS ARE DESIGNED TO KEEP AGGRO OFF OF CASTERS!</P> <P>You can't say whether or not someone is good based specifically on numbers especially if you don't take everything else into account.  You don't know the person nor the raid setup and you obviously don't care as you refuse to use logic to see that in order to put up the best numbers when you don't have proper de-aggro or hate transfer, you MUST have the supporting cast to do so.</P> <P>For a casual guild to be able to take 2 full raiding forces into Labs and be able to clear the zone with both forces says something.  If they dedicated the time to raiding they would put up amazing numbers to.  But they don't.  They are a casual based guild which raids for fun, and with any raid setup, can do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job.  I'd love to see your conjie pull off those numbers in let's say a pickup raid and we'll see how fast he dies because he doesn't have as much, if any, de-aggro.  </P><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 AM</span>

[GMPOTU]

<DIV>The topic of the post is manaburn vs lifeburn is it not?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conjurers are fine where they are imo. Necros are way overpowered with lifeburn though!!</DIV> <DIV>What I would like to see happen is that manaburn be made worthwhile for casting although I know what the coders will probably do in response is just nerf Lifeburn which makes me hesitant to even post at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said...</DIV> <DIV>In our raids, We have 2 Wizards, 1 conjurer, 1 Necro, 1 Fury, 1 Troubador in the Caster group so everyone has the same buffs .</DIV> <DIV>Our main tank never loses agro so aggro is not an issue to anyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Necro with Lifeburn will Parse 3400+ , Wizards 1900-2100 with Fusion, Conjurers stay steady around 1750+</DIV> <DIV>hence my opinion conjurers are okay, Necros are nuts!! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---Why you might ask? Some of the developers actually play a necro regularly so they buffed necro's to be the best! plain and simple there is no logic behind other than the developer mentality of "this is the class I play so it's going to be the best regaurdless if it makes sense or is balanced at all"....</DIV> <DIV>---Guess what other class they play? Swashbuckler!!! Yippie our swash buckler does 2400+ on every single fight every single time and if it's a fast burn he is ALWAYS approaching the 3000+ mark. (He's in the MT group with a coercer usually)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun debating....</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GMPOTU wrote:<BR> <DIV>The topic of the post is manaburn vs lifeburn is it not?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conjurers are fine where they are imo. Necros are way overpowered with lifeburn though!!</DIV> <DIV>What I would like to see happen is that manaburn be made worthwhile for casting although I know what the coders will probably do in response is just nerf Lifeburn which makes me hesitant to even post at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said...</DIV> <DIV>In our raids, We have 2 Wizards, 1 conjurer, 1 Necro, 1 Fury, 1 Troubador in the Caster group so everyone has the same buffs .</DIV> <DIV>Our main tank never loses agro so aggro is not an issue to anyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Necro with Lifeburn will Parse 3400+ , Wizards 1900-2100 with Fusion, Conjurers stay steady around 1750+</DIV> <DIV>hence my opinion conjurers are okay, Necros are nuts!! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---Why you might ask? Some of the developers actually play a necro regularly so they buffed necro's to be the best! plain and simple there is no logic behind other than the developer mentality of "this is the class I play so it's going to be the best regaurdless if it makes sense or is balanced at all"....</DIV> <DIV>---Guess what other class they play? Swashbuckler!!! Yippie our swash buckler does 2400+ on every single fight every single time and if it's a fast burn he is ALWAYS approaching the 3000+ mark. (He's in the MT group with a coercer usually)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun debating....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>where are these parses?  c'mon guys post these up in the wizard parse thread.  That thread isn't just for bragging rights.  </P> <P>My original intension was to have a record of parses, something to show overtime what we are parsing in raids, we dont have that many people contributing, block out names, just put classes, hell block out total damage and dps, do what ever you can to get those parses posted.</P> <P>If a swash / necro are doing 3k dps I'd like to see the parses myself.</P>

[Rade]

<DIV>I know this is not on the subject of Manaburn vs Lifeburn.  I raid with Illu not every week due to work.  I'm with him where are the parses. </DIV> <DIV>Our main Conj well I have not seen one yet that raids with us match his DPS. But on the other side this Conj has tried to train so to speak other conj's sent them step by step casting orders, aa lines, screen shots of his spell placement,  the works and yet have not seen them come nowhere near him (not bringing them down but they themselves don't see how he does it)</DIV> <DIV>As for me well you guys have in the past done a good job of flaming me (in illu's parse post).  As I have put it I'm not Illu he is by far the best wizzy I have encountered. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Ky~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ThrashVTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR>    <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <P>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</P> <P>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</P><FONT color=#ff0000>Sometimes the truth is harsh.  Doesnt matter if they are your friends you guildmates or your mother.  Their dps still sucks.</FONT> <P>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>My post was in reply to someone comparing summoners on your raid to yourself.  You parse well, your guild members dont.  So it isnt very fair to compare your dps to other people in your raid when they are doing horrible dps.</FONT><BR></P> <P>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it</P><FONT color=#ff0000>I didnt accuse you of being subpar.  Nor did i say i was uber.  But here are some parses from Freethinkers for your enjoyment.</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:46 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>(00:43) 908989 | 21139.28<BR>Conj 96561 | 2245.61<BR>Victicus 90312 | 2100.28<BR>Assa 89797 | 2088.30<BR>Swash 72751 | 1691.88<BR><BR><BR>(01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1801657 | 18384.26<BR>Conj 202905 | 2070.46<BR>Warlock 172737 | 1762.62<BR>Victicus 168529 | 1719.68<BR>Assa 167396 | 1708.12<BR><BR><BR>(00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 909493 | 18947.77<BR>Assa 88049 | 1834.35<BR>Conj 86498 | 1802.04<BR>Victicus 81703 | 1702.15<BR>Warlock 80817 | 1683.69<BR><BR>(01:41) 2026060 | 20060.00<BR>Conj 263769 | 2611.57<BR>Victicus 201450 | 1994.55<BR>Swash 176570 | 1748.22<BR>Assa 176526 | 1747.78<BR><BR>This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can post selective parses from frethinkers too, the 4 mob x3 epics are easy to break 2k on,</P> <P>Allies: (01:53) 1343612 | 11890 [Mauv-Decapitate-17646]<BR>Illu 253672 | 2245</P> <P>Allies: (04:14) 2605605 | 10258 [Mauv-Decapitate-21107] 1st named 4 min fight 1900 dps.<BR>Illu 479631 | 1903<BR><BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 664302 | 13840 [Mauv-Decapitate-15435] 2k on single target<BR>Illu 96549 | 2054<BR></P> <P>Allies: (02:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1696602 | 11464 [Mauv-Decapitate-19578] 4 mob x3 group (single target burn one mob due to off tanking then aoe'ing the other 3)<BR>Illu 314840 | 2142<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>looks like i beat your conj on 2 out of the 4 fights you posted, which im pretty sure the last one was a planeshift.  durations are simmilar to compare.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:16 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:17 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are pretty dense arent you?<BR><BR>I said the people you raid with suck.  People were looking at the conj you raid with and saying conj's suck cause they can only do 1000 dps that you show in your crappy parses.  I showed that conjs can do as much and often times more than a wizard.  I never said your personal DPS sucked, though you get pretty defensive about it.<BR><BR>Btw you didnt beat anyone at anything, we have nearly twice the raid DPS that you guys do.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know,  I NEVER post, though I follow the dps parse post closely, and I have had fun contibuting to it, but before you call someone dense, before you start throwing your "perceived' weight around, let me teach you something about the gathering and comparison of data.  First, and arguably most obvious, is that for the kind of comparison you wish to draw, unless you are dense, :smileywink: (sorry, had to get one dig in)  you should not compare parses from totally different zones.  Having not yet even seen Freethinkers, I don't know how many large group encounters there are, but compariing any two different zones is statistical folly, I think anyone with half a mind for this sort of thing could tell you that.</P> <P>Secondly, we do not min/max our raids, and often I end up with *NO* caster buffs at all to speak of, hell I am often in the MT group for +resists from geotic seal line, pet sac for power, etc, etc, and STILL I can hold my own against one of the best wizzies I know /tips hat to Illu, and even top him some fights, often when he *has* dps buffs, deaggro and the like.  I don't call that sucking wind, but hey, maybe you're right, doubt it though :smileytongue:</P> <P>Lastly, if we, and in particular *I* play my class so badly, why is it that many many posts by other conjs here don't come near my numbers, true a few surpass me, but last time I checked by gods it wasn't many, and the ones that did are likely from raiding guilds who DO min/Max, something I mentioned earlier that we don't do now, and probably will never do.</P> <P>You will notice one thing though, the parses where there are other conjurors who are not doing the dps that I have done do *NOT* have replies from me flaming them or bragging about my own dps, partly because I do not know all the facts I mentioned to you earlier in this reply,<FONT color=#ff0000> (which you would do well to consider if you are going to insult people, lest you end up appearing foolish)</FONT> but mostly because I am not here gloat, nor to call someone else incompetent at their chosen class.</P> <P> </P> <P>Alle</P> <P> </P> <P>Allestair McCallister</P> <P>New Outriders-Mistmoore</P> <P>59 aa's btw Illu :smileyhappy:</P>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR>     <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <P>thats a pretty harsh thing to say to a guild that is not a raiding guild</P> <P>#1 they aren't my guild(only a few on the parse are), but they are my friends.</P><FONT color=#ff0000>Sometimes the truth is harsh.  Doesnt matter if they are your friends you guildmates or your mother.  Their dps still sucks.</FONT> <P>#2 they do their best which is all that can be asked of.  Not everyone has m1's not everyone is fully fabled (most newcommers are in treasured) hell the conj just got his 50th aa a few days ago, these people dont spend all day griding aa's or xp.  you cant expect them to post the same #'s that full time or even part time raiding guilds do.  but they can still plow through content, just a bit slower than the rest of the populace.  in the end only thing that matters is the mob died.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>My post was in reply to someone comparing summoners on your raid to yourself.  You parse well, your guild members dont.  So it isnt very fair to compare your dps to other people in your raid when they are doing horrible dps.</FONT><BR></P> <P>#3 if these people are so uber, post the parses, the only conj I've ever seen that can out parse me was ishbu from disso, but then again I never raided with them so who knows what id' do if i did.  so put your money where your mouth is, if you want to accuse either me of being sub par, or your conj are slacking on the parse thread, post the parses for comparison.  dont just say you will....do it, prove it</P><FONT color=#ff0000>I didnt accuse you of being subpar.  Nor did i say i was uber.  But here are some parses from Freethinkers for your enjoyment.</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:46 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>(00:43) 908989 | 21139.28<BR>Conj 96561 | 2245.61<BR>Victicus 90312 | 2100.28<BR>Assa 89797 | 2088.30<BR>Swash 72751 | 1691.88<BR><BR><BR>(01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1801657 | 18384.26<BR>Conj 202905 | 2070.46<BR>Warlock 172737 | 1762.62<BR>Victicus 168529 | 1719.68<BR>Assa 167396 | 1708.12<BR><BR><BR>(00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 909493 | 18947.77<BR>Assa 88049 | 1834.35<BR>Conj 86498 | 1802.04<BR>Victicus 81703 | 1702.15<BR>Warlock 80817 | 1683.69<BR><BR>(01:41) 2026060 | 20060.00<BR>Conj 263769 | 2611.57<BR>Victicus 201450 | 1994.55<BR>Swash 176570 | 1748.22<BR>Assa 176526 | 1747.78<BR><BR>This is just a small sample on one night... but i think you get the idea<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can post selective parses from frethinkers too, the 4 mob x3 epics are easy to break 2k on,</P> <P>Allies: (01:53) 1343612 | 11890 [Mauv-Decapitate-17646]<BR>Illu 253672 | 2245</P> <P>Allies: (04:14) 2605605 | 10258 [Mauv-Decapitate-21107] 1st named 4 min fight 1900 dps.<BR>Illu 479631 | 1903<BR><BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 664302 | 13840 [Mauv-Decapitate-15435] 2k on single target<BR>Illu 96549 | 2054<BR></P> <P>Allies: (02:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1696602 | 11464 [Mauv-Decapitate-19578] 4 mob x3 group (single target burn one mob due to off tanking then aoe'ing the other 3)<BR>Illu 314840 | 2142<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>looks like i beat your conj on 2 out of the 4 fights you posted, which im pretty sure the last one was a planeshift.  durations are simmilar to compare.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:16 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:17 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are pretty dense arent you?<BR><BR>I said the people you raid with suck.  People were looking at the conj you raid with and saying conj's suck cause they can only do 1000 dps that you show in your crappy parses.  I showed that conjs can do as much and often times more than a wizard.  I never said your personal DPS sucked, though you get pretty defensive about it.<BR><BR>Btw you didnt beat anyone at anything, we have nearly twice the raid DPS that you guys do.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>May I ask what you honestly hoped to accomplish here? You are taking the concept of 2 different type of raiders and attempting to compare them. For your information, the New Outriders is NOT a raiding guild. We are a family guild that raids a few nights a week and it just so happens that when we raid Illu is usually with us. You are showing pure ignorance with your posts and attempting to inflate the ego that you are flaunting. I appologize if we do not have the exact same raid set up every raid and I appologize if every member that raids with us is not fully fabled out. You want to brag about a few parses that do not show a consistant range of raid wide DPS and then call a guild that you do not know crappy? Wow, you broke 2K on a parse, I'm proud of you. I've broken 2K on parses myself while tanking and I'm not a guardian. Your attempts to flame and insult an entire guild that you do not know is just going to amuse those of us in the guild as this is not the first time a [Removed for Content] has allowed their true ignorance to be shown. Bud, if you want some flamming tips I'll give you a few names that you can PM and grab a few lessons from. </P> <P>Back to the OP, i'm not sure exactly how the mechanics are going to work or how the 2 abilities will effect the classes consistantly but I would almost bet my account that some type of change will be made to it if it is causing a massive difference in the DPS and pushes a t2 DPS class above t1 DPS classes. </P>

[Fews]

<P>Well,  a well played Necro is overpowered. A mediocre played one is not. </P> <P> </P> <P>Once our raiding Necro gets lifeburn, the discrepency will only increase.</P> <P> </P> <P>As a raiding wizard , manaburn holds no appeal to me. It would be useful in short fights only</P> <P>For the serious long named fights, power is such that manaburn has very little bang to it.</P> <P>Now lifeburn, hey, healers heal life in seconds, no one heals power. So lifeburn will rock. Since it is a dot, the hate will be over time.  Necros rule and rock in this game as a DPS class. Have for some time. Plus they got lots of other uses. Their DPS isn't situational. Not from the experiences I see. It is an exception, not the rule, when the necro isn't on top or near the top. Yes I beat the necro sometimes, yes the assasins beat him sometimes, the conjurers rarely. But that is a strange balance to the game.  Lifeburn will make it more so. Our necro usually parses 1900-2400 single or multitarget(which goes even higher), short or long fight. Parses much higher in situational fights ( As do all classes including wizzys). They have half the hate issues of the wizzys, but equal or more DPS.LoL.</P> <P>Had so many people I know stop playing a wizzy saying you have to almost(or actually) kill yourself if you want to be up in the parses, they went to other classes where they could do well and not have the risk.</P> <P>But I really have no game experience yet with a Necro having lifeburn, but I am sure I will.</P> <P>If I was a necro, I would get lifeburn in a heartbeat, as a wizard I will pass on manaburn</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 AM</span>

[Fael]

Bah.I came in to read up on Wizards again, with the thought of coming back.  Im going back to my necros.<div></div>

[Traxor789]

<P>I think its all about everyone plays their class diffrently. That is how it should be. SoE would know if every conjuror was out parsing every class in their guild.</P> <P>Some guilds might have a very experienced conjuror. Who just hits buttons in a rythem that puts out dps better then a ranger or a wizard.</P> <P>On the other side, a very experienced wizard can combo a crit fusion and a crit ice nova, have their tanks use interceed and maybe burn Reinforcement and keep aggro.</P> <P>You may say that conjurors do not grab aggro off tanks as much but its not all true. By burning 2 specials and chain casting a conjuror can make a mage pet grab aggro and the pet dies (1k hit points) with one swipe and all of that aggro is stacked on top of the conjurors aggro he already has bilt up. </P> <P>Not all conjurors know how to do max dps. I don't. I learn every day how to do 30- 70 more dps each fight in a zone. Sometimes its luck with a critical dot. Sometimes its the new advanced AA's with Troubadors having 50% Jesters cap making Plane Shift go off every 8 min. The more specials you can burn in a  zone. The more dps you will do and there will always be someone who gets more crits, hit 1 more button, had a better group set up, or is just better then you. Everything isnt ballanced, I agree. Necro scout pets are like juggernaughts at how well they stay alive, but i love how conjuror mage pets can die and you spend 8 seconds casting..... 3 seconds casting 2 other buffs. 2 seconds casting 2 more aa buffs. All while this is going on you have to keep track of the AE, so you dont send your pet in to its death again. =)</P> <P>Thats a little way soe ballanced.</P> <P>Some wizards say soe is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], Wanting wizards to sit at max range using nukes. The ferther you are away from a mob the less aggro you have. There is a reason Fusion is so hard to get off and you have to be so close. You have a potential for a huge ammount of damage but you are going to get max aggro and its hard to position to use it. Its just like summoners have to joust with pets to keep them alive.</P> <P> </P> <P>There will be a balance ... one day...</P> <P>my 2cp</P>

[Zyphius]

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Traxor789 wrote:<BR> <P>I think its all about everyone plays their class diffrently. That is how it should be. SoE would know if every conjuror was out parsing every class in their guild.</P> <P>Some guilds might have a very experienced conjuror. Who just hits buttons in a rythem that puts out dps better then a ranger or a wizard.</P> <P>On the other side, a very experienced wizard can combo a crit fusion and a crit ice nova, have their tanks use interceed and maybe burn Reinforcement and keep aggro.</P> <P>You may say that conjurors do not grab aggro off tanks as much but its not all true. By burning 2 specials and chain casting a conjuror can make a mage pet grab aggro and the pet dies (1k hit points) with one swipe and all of that aggro is stacked on top of the conjurors aggro he already has bilt up. </P> <P>Not all conjurors know how to do max dps. I don't. I learn every day how to do 30- 70 more dps each fight in a zone. Sometimes its luck with a critical dot. Sometimes its the new advanced AA's with Troubadors having 50% Jesters cap making Plane Shift go off every 8 min. The more specials you can burn in a  zone. The more dps you will do and there will always be someone who gets more crits, hit 1 more button, had a better group set up, or is just better then you. Everything isnt ballanced, I agree. Necro scout pets are like juggernaughts at how well they stay alive, but i love how conjuror mage pets can die and you spend 8 seconds casting..... 3 seconds casting 2 other buffs. 2 seconds casting 2 more aa buffs. All while this is going on you have to keep track of the AE, so you dont send your pet in to its death again. =)</P> <P>Thats a little way soe ballanced.</P> <P>Some wizards say soe is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], Wanting wizards to sit at max range using nukes. <STRONG>The ferther you are away from a mob the less aggro you have. There is a reason Fusion is so hard to get off and you have to be so close.</STRONG> You have a potential for a huge ammount of damage but you are going to get max aggro and its hard to position to use it. Its just like summoners have to joust with pets to keep them alive.</P> <P> </P> <P>There will be a balance ... one day...</P> <P>my 2cp</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Huh??</P> <P>Distance from mob is irrelevant.<BR></P>

[Fews]

<P>SOE will always have a very hard time balancing a game with 24+ class plus all the other variables/complexities. I have always said it would have been better to have a few well defined classes and use things like AA trees to provide diversity.</P> <P>That aside, Manaburn may actually be better than it first looked. Played with it yesterday, it does increase "controllable" chaos into a fight, and that is good.</P> <P>Always liked Fusion (and yes my name predates the spell..and was chosen as a not so subtle reference to nuclear fusion and being one of a few). Fusion also provide controlled chaos..you want a little..but not to much of it for making a fight less routine and more stimulating.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[nadym]

I think there are other factors to check here. With Manaburn you wont put your life at risk at all. You can just use it at the end of the fight if you still have mana. You can also use it not raiding but with normal mobs killing them really easy. 1- Lifeburn on the contrary gets you in high risk. You are loosing up to double of your life, so if the mob has hp enough you will get to 1hp. There is a high risk that should be put into the equation. 2- A necro alone cannot use at its full potential a life burn. It must be healed, and healed with a big effort. (check the fury forum, there is even a thread on how to heal a necro to avoid his death). So lifeburn is just half as good if we use our life almost suiciding, and very good if it converts in a group effort (healers healing). You say you end with your mana and you cannot fight, but for sue we cannot dps while dead. Check also on the fury thread how many healers just dont want to heal the necro = death. Now regarding the overall necro damage. In a game with so many variables (in which group you are, with who, etc ..) its difficult to say but i think you will all agree that a necro without pets has lost a good asset. This happens really really too frequently. I can die once in a raid, but maybe my pet will die 5-10 times. Each of those times it will take a very long time to recast and rebuff. If it gets killed in the middle of the fight, i can either choose to continue fighting to add dps without pet (believe our dps lowers without pet) or loose the time to summon it and add more dps later (wont be a great dps either for that fight). There are final AA abilities to keep pet safe of AOEs but they take all our mana in a few seconds, also we have to choose between lifeburn or pet inmune to aoe. With this all your doubts about the convenience and equilibrium of lifeburn by your side should be solved, dont you think? either lifeburn or loose pet 10 times each raid. There are tons of times in which our swarm pets get killed before its full potential and even our finishing move, the undead tide gets killed after some seconds by an AOE. I think is not fair to say that wizards do less damage than necros, at least not exact. Always the fight is medium to short in time thats not true and you wizs do much more dps. I let you say that a necro fighting a named that does not AOE will shine (dots, tide every 15 mins, all pets out for a long time), but thats in very specific situations. I love my necro, but i really envy the power of a wiz correctly used with your 5% break chance- chains and huge nukes to kill whatever named you want against necro tank pet, that can withstand much less than your chains when fighting against heroic nameds, so it is unusable against anything higher than 65+++ or 15% chains breakable with any of our dot ticks and also with a fear effect that makes named dissapear in walls/floor. Or your area damage where you can kill any number of mobs around you in just two hits, or your portals to gf or not having to hand hearts to everybody in the middle of a fight because the guy forgot to ask before (that lowers a bit our dps,do you believe it) or just finished its last charge when fighting. Cheers and please lets make your nerf cries to a low.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>nadym wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think there are other factors to check here. With Manaburn you wont put your life at risk at all. You can just use it at the end of the fight if you still have mana. You can also use it not raiding but with normal mobs killing them really easy. 1- Lifeburn on the contrary gets you in high risk. You are loosing up to double of your life, so if the mob has hp enough you will get to 1hp. There is a high risk that should be put into the equation. 2- A necro alone cannot use at its full potential a life burn. It must be healed, and healed with a big effort. (check the fury forum, there is even a thread on how to heal a necro to avoid his death). So lifeburn is just half as good if we use our life almost suiciding, and very good if it converts in a group effort (healers healing). You say you end with your mana and you cannot fight, but for sue we cannot dps while dead. Check also on the fury thread how many healers just dont want to heal the necro = death. Now regarding the overall necro damage. In a game with so many variables (in which group you are, with who, etc ..) its difficult to say but i think you will all agree that a necro without pets has lost a good asset. This happens really really too frequently. I can die once in a raid, but maybe my pet will die 5-10 times. Each of those times it will take a very long time to recast and rebuff. If it gets killed in the middle of the fight, i can either choose to continue fighting to add dps without pet (believe our dps lowers without pet) or loose the time to summon it and add more dps later (wont be a great dps either for that fight). There are final AA abilities to keep pet safe of AOEs but they take all our mana in a few seconds, also we have to choose between lifeburn or pet inmune to aoe. With this all your doubts about the convenience and equilibrium of lifeburn by your side should be solved, dont you think? either lifeburn or loose pet 10 times each raid. There are tons of times in which our swarm pets get killed before its full potential and even our finishing move, the undead tide gets killed after some seconds by an AOE. I think is not fair to say that wizards do less damage than necros, at least not exact. Always the fight is medium to short in time thats not true and you wizs do much more dps. I let you say that a necro fighting a named that does not AOE will shine (dots, tide every 15 mins, all pets out for a long time), but thats in very specific situations. I love my necro, but i really envy the power of a wiz correctly used with your 5% break chance- chains and huge nukes to kill whatever named you want against necro tank pet, that can withstand much less than your chains when fighting against heroic nameds, so it is unusable against anything higher than 65+++ or 15% chains breakable with any of our dot ticks and also with a fear effect that makes named dissapear in walls/floor. Or your area damage where you can kill any number of mobs around you in just two hits, or your portals to gf or not having to hand hearts to everybody in the middle of a fight because the guy forgot to ask before (that lowers a bit our dps,do you believe it) or just finished its last charge when fighting. Cheers and please lets make your nerf cries to a low.</blockquote><p>Manaburn puts you at risk just as much as lifeburn, except wizards have no way of instantly shedding off agro, we just die.</p><p>Lifeburn as a dot, is already better at getting less hate than a full blown manaburn, as the tank will continue to accrue hate while lifeburn ticks away, where manaburn is all or nothing.</p><p>So the danger factor of both spells is moot.</p><p>They are comparable in terms of total damage dealt, so that point is moot.</p><p>The only out of balance is that manaburn leaves a wizard with 0 power, so it has to be used in the last 10 seconds of a mobs life where lifeburn leaves the necro with full power.  You can not heal power as quickly as you can heal HP.</p><p>Also, our roots do not have a 5% breakchance, I think you may be referring to the warden ones, but those have a chance to break over time, where ours at least are guaranteed to stick for the full duration as long as the mob doesn't take damage,so those are actually balanced pretty well.</p><p>Now the only advantage a wizard has with manaburn over a necro is in a non raiding envoirnment.  Soloing mobs is 10x easier with manaburn than with lifeburn, and a necro takes a huge risk with lifeburn solo,</p><p>I'm not 100% certain that the two should cancell each other out but I guess you could say thats the wash.  One's better for raiding, the other's better for solo farming.</p>

[HippyKnight]

<cite>nadym wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think there are other factors to check here. With Manaburn you wont put your life at risk at all. You can just use it at the end of the fight if you still have mana. You can also use it not raiding but with normal mobs killing them really easy. 1- Lifeburn on the contrary gets you in high risk. You are loosing up to double of your life, so if the mob has hp enough you will get to 1hp. There is a high risk that should be put into the equation. 2- A necro alone cannot use at its full potential a life burn. It must be healed, and healed with a big effort. (check the fury forum, there is even a thread on how to heal a necro to avoid his death). So lifeburn is just half as good if we use our life almost suiciding, and very good if it converts in a group effort (healers healing). You say you end with your mana and you cannot fight, but for sue we cannot dps while dead. Check also on the fury thread how many healers just dont want to heal the necro = death. Now regarding the overall necro damage. In a game with so many variables (in which group you are, with who, etc ..) its difficult to say but i think you will all agree that a necro without pets has lost a good asset. This happens really really too frequently. I can die once in a raid, but maybe my pet will die 5-10 times. Each of those times it will take a very long time to recast and rebuff. If it gets killed in the middle of the fight, i can either choose to continue fighting to add dps without pet (believe our dps lowers without pet) or loose the time to summon it and add more dps later (wont be a great dps either for that fight). There are final AA abilities to keep pet safe of AOEs but they take all our mana in a few seconds, also we have to choose between lifeburn or pet inmune to aoe. With this all your doubts about the convenience and equilibrium of lifeburn by your side should be solved, dont you think? either lifeburn or loose pet 10 times each raid. There are tons of times in which our swarm pets get killed before its full potential and even our finishing move, the undead tide gets killed after some seconds by an AOE. I think is not fair to say that wizards do less damage than necros, at least not exact. Always the fight is medium to short in time thats not true and you wizs do much more dps. I let you say that a necro fighting a named that does not AOE will shine (dots, tide every 15 mins, all pets out for a long time), but thats in very specific situations. I love my necro, but i really envy the power of a wiz correctly used with your 5% break chance- chains and huge nukes to kill whatever named you want against necro tank pet, that can withstand much less than your chains when fighting against heroic nameds, so it is unusable against anything higher than 65+++ or 15% chains breakable with any of our dot ticks and also with a fear effect that makes named dissapear in walls/floor. Or your area damage where you can kill any number of mobs around you in just two hits, or your portals to gf or not having to hand hearts to everybody in the middle of a fight because the guy forgot to ask before (that lowers a bit our dps,do you believe it) or just finished its last charge when fighting. Cheers and please lets make your nerf cries to a low.</blockquote><p>Is this what you call a necro necro post? I think considering the last post was on the 5th of december i think the nerf cries were pretty low.. but since you brought it up... =P</p><p>As someone who plays both a necro and a wiz (although my necro is fairly gimpily equipped in comparison) I'd have to say that manaburn is far more dangerous to cast, mostly because of the lack of fd  but also because as a wiz your often teetering on the edge of drawing aggro anyway. </p><p>Also necro and wiz roots are both 15% and i'd swap my wiz root for the necro one any day. When the necro one breaks it snares+fears, not just snares. So the mob cant cast at you or attack you in any way until the fear is broken. Even though occassionally it will put the stoopid mob in a wall somewhere. </p><p>As for the danger of using manaburn verses lifeburn solo. I dont see the difference.. my necro has a 5 sec stun that takes 1.5 sec to cast as apposed to the rotten wizzy stun which is 2 sec cast and 3 sec duration.. Just get the mob to 60% hp and then lifeburn+constrict. Lifeburn will be done ticking and the mob will be dead just after constrict wears off... the mobs never get to you before they die. </p>

[dieschatten]

Das Problem was die Zauberer doch haben ist das sie für Manaburn ihr gesamtes Mana brauchen. Der Necro castet einfach den ganzen Kampf lang und dann haut er Lifeburn raus und macht nochmal zusatzt dmg. Wenn der zauberer nur noch 10% mana hat lohnt sich der burn kaum noch.

[TheBu]

<p>ther are alot of factors that play into the formula.. some wiz parse hight than some necros..</p><p>It is true most necros have an easier time being on top of the parses now. And yea they have a pet and fd.. so its not all fairish. .. but hay the scout been having an easier time for a long time so a wizzys life is not fair.</p><p>Befoer eof we were the top dogs and well we cant expect to be top dog all the time. It is def their time to be on top and well i am kinda ok with that.</p>

[Zyphius]

TheBuzZ wrote: <blockquote><p>Befoer eof we were the top dogs and well we cant expect to be top dog all the time. It is def their time to be on top and well i am kinda ok with that.</p></blockquote> Actually, we've never been "top dog", since launch...

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>Zyphius wrote:</cite><blockquote>TheBuzZ wrote: <blockquote><p>Befoer eof we were the top dogs and well we cant expect to be top dog all the time. It is def their time to be on top and well i am kinda ok with that.</p></blockquote> Actually, we've never been "top dog", since launch...</blockquote><p>Agreed.  If you thought that you were top tog pre-eof, then your competition must not have been any good.</p><p>And I'm not OK with necros being top dps....too much util to justify such status.  And their lives are too easy, with endless power pool, and pet soakin up half their aggro.</p>

[Vlaton]

<cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zyphius wrote:</cite><blockquote>TheBuzZ wrote: <blockquote><p>Befoer eof we were the top dogs and well we cant expect to be top dog all the time. It is def their time to be on top and well i am kinda ok with that.</p></blockquote> Actually, we've never been "top dog", since launch...</blockquote><p>Agreed.  If you thought that you were top tog pre-eof, then your competition must not have been any good.</p><p>And I'm not OK with necros being top dps....too much util to justify such status.  And their lives are too easy, with endless power pool, and pet soakin up half their aggro.</p></blockquote>I really am happy to see some sanity in refute to the original statement.  Fact is that an equally played necro, with equal gear, in an equaly ideal raid setup, the Necro's will own the real estate of the top parse slots.  The difference between the top necro and top wizard is usually substantial.  There really is no argument to this.  This is regarding raid encounters btw.  

[Fatkiddown]

<cite>Vlaton wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zyphius wrote:</cite><blockquote>TheBuzZ wrote: <blockquote><p>Befoer eof we were the top dogs and well we cant expect to be top dog all the time. It is def their time to be on top and well i am kinda ok with that.</p></blockquote> Actually, we've never been "top dog", since launch...</blockquote><p>Agreed.  If you thought that you were top tog pre-eof, then your competition must not have been any good.</p><p>And I'm not OK with necros being top dps....too much util to justify such status.  And their lives are too easy, with endless power pool, and pet soakin up half their aggro.</p></blockquote>I really am happy to see some sanity in refute to the original statement.  Fact is that an equally played necro, with equal gear, in an equaly ideal raid setup, the Necro's will own the real estate of the top parse slots.  The difference between the top necro and top wizard is usually substantial.  There really is no argument to this.  This is regarding raid encounters btw. </blockquote> As a wizard you really have to be on top of your game to outparse necro/conj because they have that pet constantly doing dmg and if a wizard pauses  for anything they will quickly fall behind.   That being said If I am in ideal caster group with Illusionist Troub and especially fury with their VIM on me I can give necros a very hard time.  The key is having a mt group setup with good hate transfer so I can open up as soon as assist is called with rending icicles then Catalyst and Ice Nova getting 2-3+ Ice Nova crits or even a fusion +catalyst crit during a fight really does the trick.   Also having my Ice Nova on 37sec recast I can squeeze in a few nova's in between catalyst cooldowns. This is also with all adept 3 except Master 2 glacial wind.    Also on a side note the Illusionist Dynamism buff adds about 7% total dmg to the zonewide parse for me and the troubador dissonant note buff adds about 5%  (this is in deathtoll)  Question for other wizards: Do you notice or remember your DPS in AOAx4 (Gorenaire/Talendor) trash mobs?  My parse is ALWAYS low in that zone and I'm lucky if Nova crits for 10k+ and thats with brigand even.  Only thing I can think is those mobs have high cold and heat resists. And finally don't get all mad that so and so did more dmg than you etc in the raid.  Raids are supposed to be a team effort so the more DPS EVERYONE does the better off the raid goes.  And Remember one thing necro's or Conjy's will NEVER(provided you use all your spells) take from you is Max hit on the parse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TerabithianWhisperwi]

So, I'm not currently playing either of these classes, nor have I ever played a class over the level of 50, but I CAN summarize fairly well, and have found this thread interesting. What I gather here, in the most neutral terms I can muster, is that summoners can, at the very least, easily match, if not exceed, a wizard's DPS in a given situation, though the wizard will score the highest single hits. This disparity seems to be augmented by the necromancer skill "lifeburn" to a certain degree, though this is dependent upon the necromancer having a healer. Now, there has been a clear indication that the classes are "tiered" with regards to their DPS, and that the wizards and warlocks should be in a higher tier than the summoners. This is clearly not the case, although the amount of time spent on a mob is not clearly being interpreted. (meaning that there seems to be evidence of wizards being leaders in shorter combats, and necromancers being leaders in longer combats (due to the nature of DOT's). I don't really have any personal interpretation of this, aside to say that these numbers completely are foreign to my little bardic eyes. That is all.

[Zyphius]

<cite>Fatkiddown wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlaton wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zyphius wrote:</cite><blockquote>TheBuzZ wrote: <blockquote><p>Befoer eof we were the top dogs and well we cant expect to be top dog all the time. It is def their time to be on top and well i am kinda ok with that.</p></blockquote> Actually, we've never been "top dog", since launch...</blockquote><p>Agreed.  If you thought that you were top tog pre-eof, then your competition must not have been any good.</p><p>And I'm not OK with necros being top dps....too much util to justify such status.  And their lives are too easy, with endless power pool, and pet soakin up half their aggro.</p></blockquote>I really am happy to see some sanity in refute to the original statement.  Fact is that an equally played necro, with equal gear, in an equaly ideal raid setup, the Necro's will own the real estate of the top parse slots.  The difference between the top necro and top wizard is usually substantial.  There really is no argument to this.  This is regarding raid encounters btw. </blockquote>As a wizard you really have to be on top of your game to outparse necro/conj because they have that pet constantly doing dmg and if a wizard pauses  for anything they will quickly fall behind.   That being said If I am in ideal caster group with Illusionist Troub and especially fury with their VIM on me I can give necros a very hard time.  The key is having a mt group setup with good hate transfer so I can open up as soon as assist is called with rending icicles then Catalyst and Ice Nova getting 2-3+ Ice Nova crits or even a fusion +catalyst crit during a fight really does the trick.   Also having my Ice Nova on 37sec recast I can squeeze in a few nova's in between catalyst cooldowns. This is also with all adept 3 except Master 2 glacial wind.    Also on a side note the Illusionist Dynamism buff adds about 7% total dmg to the zonewide parse for me and the troubador dissonant note buff adds about 5%  (this is in deathtoll)  Question for other wizards: Do you notice or remember your DPS in AOAx4 (Gorenaire/Talendor) trash mobs?  My parse is ALWAYS low in that zone and I'm lucky if Nova crits for 10k+ and thats with brigand even.  Only thing I can think is those mobs have high cold and heat resists. And finally don't get all mad that so and so did more dmg than you etc in the raid.  Raids are supposed to be a team effort so the more DPS EVERYONE does the better off the raid goes.  And Remember one thing necro's or Conjy's will NEVER(provided you use all your spells) take from you is Max hit on the parse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>A. I am on top of my game, and that is why I can match, and very occasionally beat, the necros we have... however that is also very dependent on group makeup. The group makeup argument is a cope out and [Removed for Content]. A summoner, with a built in tank and healer for the tank, should never out parse me, regardless of group makeup.</p><p>B. No they can't take the max hit from me... our assassin usually takes care of that. </p>

[Minlas]

<p>Just curious but is anyone saying that necros are not doing T1 or T1+ dps? Obviously the logic behing necros  being t2 dps: rezzez/roots/pets/fd/healing/snares/fear/hearts/charm undead/dps etc utilty one would have a hard time saying they are not the jack of all trades of eq2.</p>

[JohnDoe058]

<p>I'd take lifeburn + FD in a BLINK over manaburn.  And the better AA is given to a class that *supposedly* is T2 DPS.  Now enough of that discussion.</p><p>The only solace I have in this matter of horrific class imbalance, is:</p><p>1) I've whooped summoner butt in every heroic instance, ever.</p><p>2) Scott Hartsman indicated that there would be revision of existing AA trees, rather than addition of another tree.  Maybe, just maybe, we'll come out ahead on the deal.  It doesn't have to look like a nerf on necro AA's....could just be an improvement to ours.</p><p>And yes, it IS a big deal that summoners outparse us in raid settings.  It greatly affects demand for us on raids.  You have to be the best wizard around, in order to get into a hardcore raiding guild.  I'll get 1900 zonewide in HoS, for example, and the main summoner will still beat me by 100 or so, given that we have the same buffage.</p><p>Void where prohibited.  In case of accidental ingestion, consult a mortician.</p>

[Fizzyhawk]

<p>Well, I guess I see this differently than most of you, and no offense intended, but I think it's FAR easier to use manaburn than lifeburn, and FWIW, I generally have no trouble at all out-dps-ing the necro's and conj's in our raids, and they are all pretty dam good!  Let's look at both:</p><p>There are two primary concerns with Manaburn:  1) It draws aggro.  I have a simple solution for this, assuming your tank is a Guardian (our always is.)  When I'm ready to burn, I simply ask for Reinforcement.  Our awesome tank will gladly comply, I will burn, and we will all smile at the 85,000+ manaburn hit and move on.  I've NEVER pulled aggro due to manaburn when used under cover of Reinforcement.  2) The second complaint relates to the impact on power.  If you burn early you don't have power left to continue burning, and if you burn late you don't have alot of power to have much impact, right?  Here, the solution is mana-regen:  troub + Illy = warm feelings and good times.  I also have a ton of power-proc gear.  All this literally means that even with time-compression on me, I can't cast faster than the rate of my mana regen.  In the end this means whenever I coose to burn, it does not effect the outcome of my dps--if I burn early, my regen is fast enough to continue right on chain casting without interruption, if I burn late I usually have somewhere between 90-95% power.  Tack on fury/defiler in the group and you have some serious wizzie-loving going on.  Granted, if your groups don't allow for this, then you have issues, but, I'd still rather have the every-day name-tanking practical uses of manaburn over lifeburn anay day of the week.</p><p>Second, parses on summoners.  There's no doubt a summoner can beat me from time to time on certain fights, and any wizzie who says otherwise is a liar.  If they lifeburn, tide, dot, proc, pet doesn't die, multiple mob fight, they can crank out a 3k+ parse easily.  However, one fight here and there does not make a dps machine, and in most encounters, it's the swashy/brigand/assassins/other wizzies I'm competing with for the top spot on the parse, not summoners.  And while on certain zones I have been beat for the zone-wide top ext-dps spot by a scout, a summoner has never had that spot in my memory (although they always put up some of the top numbers).  For those struggling to beat summoners, I'd see what you can do about group setup, but there are just so many variables that I usually don't even get into these discussions--what's the comparison of gear, particularly on proc gear?  The right proc gear adds several hundred points to your dps.  What level are your spells vs theirs?  How are your aa's spec'd?  Personally, I believe wizard to be one of the more difficult classes to play well, as generating ultra-high dps is not as simple as pressing all the buttons that are lit up as fast as possible--spell order and timing have an enormous impact on the outcome. </p><p>Anyway, I'm babbling at this point, so I'll stop, but to answer the original question, I'd take Manaburn over Lifeburn every day of the week and twice on Sunday!</p>

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>Fizzyhawk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Anyway, I'm babbling at this point, so I'll stop, but to answer the original question, I'd take Manaburn over Lifeburn every day of the week and twice on Sunday!</p></blockquote><p>Okay...so I read you're whole post, and still fail to see how MB would ever be better good as LB.  Your last statement throws me off, because you failed to give any reasons for why you would choose MB out of the 2.</p><p>Care to clarify?</p>

[darkmagi83]

What the hell, the sorcerer's AA's are clearly far superior to the summoner's.  It gets crap like implode and shadowstep,  which is clearly inferior to cataclyst, spellshifting heck even spellshaping, sorcerer's overall got far better AA's than the summoner classes. I would glady trade lifeburn for manaburn if summoners can actually get as good AA's as sorcerer's.

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>darkmagi83 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What the hell, the sorcerer's AA's are clearly far superior to the summoner's.  It gets crap like implode and shadowstep,  which is clearly inferior to cataclyst, spellshifting heck even spellshaping, sorcerer's overall got far better AA's than the summoner classes. I would glady trade lifeburn for manaburn if summoners can actually get as good AA's as sorcerer's. </blockquote><p>You have a good point.  It's easy to forget to look at the "big picture", which many of us have done in this case, I suppose.  Generic Summoner AA's do seem inferior (I play a 70 conj too), but conj- and necro-specific trees seem to be overall superior to wiz-specific tree.  I guess it roughly evens out.</p>