Manaburn Feedback (Post 11/12/06)

[Dejah]

<DIV>Manaburn was updated today. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/biohazard/1112_Power_Manaburn.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've verified the new behavior except for the immunity timer.  I like these new changes.  I'll get to do something other than just Manaburn for a named in an instance now.  There is just one piece still missing from the puzzle:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make it do more damage power power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that these other measures are in place, I really don't think increasing the damage per power would imbalance this ability at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For soloers:  An increase in Damage Per Power just means that the spell takes up less power than it would have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For groupers: An increase in Damage Per Power just means that the spell takes up less power than it would have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For raiders: An increase in Damage Per Power means that it will useful to cast in more situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An increase in Damage Per Power won't really affect the soloer or grouper much as they will still most likely be hitting the 50% cap; an increase in Damage Per Power will only really affect a raider.  The new Damage Per Power rating should be less than the average Damage Per Power rating of a wizard, because we don't want the optimal way to burn all of our mana to be through Manaburn;  Figure out what the average Damage Per Power rating of a wizard is, and then pick a value between 5 Damage Per Power and that value, and I think this spell will be golden.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah, the Power Line requirement for Manaburn is still 20 points (80% of power line), still seems like that is too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those who haven't been apart of the Manaburn discussion, here's why I think these new restrictions to Manaburn are a good thing:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Must be hated by your current target.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This is good because it prevents caster from just one shotting heroic mobs.  Errr, wait, they have a 50% cap now.  Hmmm, I guess this restriction isn't really needed anymore. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Manaburn's damage cannot exceed 50% of the target's maximum health.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>With out this restriction the spell could one-shot green-con heroic named, and could one-shot white-con heroic non-named.  This is not desirable for a few reasons.  Plat farms is one reason; we don't need plat farming wizards camping named mobs with little to no risk due to this one ability.  Challenge and fun factor is another reason; seriously... how much fun is doing an instance when you just about kill the boss by pressing one button; I don't find that much fun, and I doubt my group mates find that much fun.  Last reason, with this cap in place they can make Manaburn do more damage per power.  With out this cap they couldn't raise the damage per power because then wizards would be one-shotting white-con heroic named, which is obviously way overpowered.  With this cap in place, they can make this spell do more damage per power, making it a more viable for raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Applies Manaburn Immunity. Lasts 30.0 seconds.  Manaburn cannot be cast on an enemy that has recently been Manaburned.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This is to prevent wizard death squads from forming.  No 24 wizard raids burning mobs down before they blink.</DIV>

[justright]

<div></div>Thanks for the recap!I havent tried Manaburn myself. Could anyone explain how this works? From what i read u get 5 point of damage for every power point burned. Say with 6K of mana would mean a hit for 30K, is that assuming right? Is this combined with a regular spell like Nova which adds to dmg or is it a seperate dmg spell?If i assume changes correctly i can also see problems with more than one wizard in group/raid. Wasting concusive on a mob that is immune etc.<div></div><p>Message Edited by justright on <span class=date_text>11-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:37 AM</span>

[iceriven2]

agreed... they changed manaburn now all they need to do is up the damage....if not still useless.

[Falcogen]

<DIV>I can't really think of anything positive to say about this AA option anymore</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when it costed 15 points in power AA tree it was a viable option for a raiding wizard imo @ 20 points it is a waste of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of the sub clauses and limitations are being brought in for pvp. Yes i can see the arguement of 6 wizards roaming around killing one heroic named every 3 mins chaining 6 manaburns...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SO WHAT !! Your telling me you cant do that already with catalyst fh ice nova ?? but every minute instead</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Azmoran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ShaneFalco wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SO WHAT !! Your telling me you cant do that already with catalyst fh ice nova ?? but every minute instead</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>QFE!</P> <P>And that's why manaburn is still not useful compared to what we can already do for cheaper mana.<BR></P>

[Zyphius]

Yup, completely and utterly worthless... in ANY capacity...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Must be hated by your current target.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This is good because it prevents caster from just one shotting heroic mobs.  Errr, wait, they have a 50% cap now.  Hmmm, I guess this restriction isn't really needed anymore. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>This I could live with... BEFORE the other nerfs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Manaburn's damage cannot exceed 50% of the target's maximum health.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>With out this restriction the spell could one-shot green-con heroic named, and could one-shot white-con heroic non-named.  This is not desirable for a few reasons.  Plat farms is one reason; we don't need plat farming wizards camping named mobs with little to no risk due to this one ability.  Challenge and fun factor is another reason; seriously... how much fun is doing an instance when you just about kill the boss by pressing one button; I don't find that much fun, and I doubt my group mates find that much fun.  Last reason, with this cap in place they can make Manaburn do more damage per power.  With out this cap they couldn't raise the damage per power because then wizards would be one-shotting white-con heroic named, which is obviously way overpowered.  With this cap in place, they can make this spell do more damage per power, making it a more viable for raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Makes it worthless. We get one shotted... so what [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing difference does it make? It's ok for us to get one shotted, in both PVP and PVE but it isn't ok for us to do it back? That's bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. The first restriction was a starter to keep it from being a farming tool. If root resisted, then manaburn wasn't going to save you. And the other smart thing to do would have been up the reuse timer a little (or more than a little with a damage increase).</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Applies Manaburn Immunity. Lasts 30.0 seconds.  Manaburn cannot be cast on an enemy that has recently been Manaburned.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This is to prevent wizard death squads from forming.  No 24 wizard raids burning mobs down before they blink.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Ontop of the other changes, this is the stupidest thing in the world. Without the other changes, I don't see an issue here.</FONT></DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I wont be wasting my points on this useless ability.</P> <P>Wizards remain gimped... Yippee!!</P>

[Aeg]

<P>in pve this ability remains useless, 35k isnt that impressive and that is if i cast it at full mana. in my opinion, the damage per mana needs to be upped to about 8 per mana, since it is now capped, it wont make that much of a differance.</P> <P>in pvp, this went from a hard spell to use to a hard spell to use that isnt worth casting, before the changes to the percent cap, this was a spell that required 7 seconds of cast time and could be avoided by either anti-death or reflect. the 40% to 50% is a nice jump, but id really like to see this spell reach 60% before it goes life. being that it is still hard to use against half the classes in the game and very hard to get off verse any melee because they can interupt you and even harder to get off on healers because of their unpredictability, besides, requiring 20 points in power totally owns my other spell lines, make this worth getting in pvp by putting it at 60% cap. thank you.</P>

[Victicu]

    At least the casting animation looks cool.<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR>    At least the casting animation looks cool.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes it is very unique, which is why I dont see this going away any time soon, since the devlopmental time was spent on the animations and graphics.  The implementation of the spell however is very poor in its current state.  It needs a serious damage to power boost.</P> <P>It looks really really cool with effects turned way up when casting and when the spell lands. </P>

[Sliverhammer]

Oh F'it.Everytime I see this Feedback with a new date I get worried, and now the terms and conditions on Manaburn are so long we'll all need lawyers before we cast, or accept a EULA, can just see it now, poppin up on screen.If something is taking all my mana, then by god I want it doing more than Fusion, ALL the time as long as my power remaining is less than it costs to cast Fusion, and it better be a huge wallop of damage.I'm going to take this line, much around with manaburn a bit, then I will drop it for a sensible and useful raidline of skills./dissapointedOn another note, big thanks Dejah, appreciate your feedback and input.<p>Message Edited by Sliverhammer on <span class=date_text>11-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:09 PM</span>

[Glenolas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <DIV>Manaburn was updated today. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/biohazard/1112_Power_Manaburn.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've verified the new behavior except for the immunity timer.  I like these new changes.  I'll get to do something other than just Manaburn for a named in an instance now.  There is just one piece still missing from the puzzle:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make it do more damage power power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The new Damage Per Power rating should be less than the average Damage Per Power rating of a wizard, because we don't want the optimal way to burn all of our mana to be through Manaburn;  Figure out what the average Damage Per Power rating of a wizard is, and then pick a value between 5 Damage Per Power and that value, and I think this spell will be golden.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>At the moment I show NO spell anywhere near  as low as 5 DP/PP in a wizard's offensive arsenal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>For even average wizards, damage per power is around 12 DP/PP for an Adept III, chain casting wizard in a one minute fight vs <EM>single</EM> target.  (no AOE bonuses).    That's a weighed average of the spells needed to fill the  fight with no gaps, using the midpoint of the spell damage range and it's listed power.   </FONT><FONT color=#ffff33>    Many wizards can exceed 12DP/PP, so it's safe to use as a discussion point.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>With that in mind, it's hard to conceive of a use for burning power at half to a third the efficiency of normal casting.     </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>Solo Names in places like the Nest or HOF have approx 80K-150K HP,  so a 40K hit would use all the wizard's power and only serve to make them really mad.      Perhaps a coup de grace at the end might be a use, but then at the end on most high end Names everyone is down to low power and you want the most bang for your power, not the least.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>At the moment I cant think of a reason strong enough to motivate me to use 20 achievement points on it.   Get it to 10 DP/PP and it will have several uses, but even then it's mostly to speed up the end game.   </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>Glenolas</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[JohnDoe059]

<P>Ok so you put all the restrictions on it so i cant have any fun with it.</P> <P>How about enough damage to make it useful ?</P> <P>5 to 1 ?</P> <P>Are you high?</P> <P>I do more than that with 1 fusion and 1 ice nova.  </P> <P>That costs me less than a seventh of my power pool.</P> <P>Tell me again why I want this class defining ability as is?</P> <P>Is it a crime to give us something good ?</P> <P>How about a 1 to 10 ?</P> <P>Or at least an instant cast time so i could drop it in the end...as it stands MB is an insult to its name.</P> <P> </P>

[oyroy]

Seems like in EoF power will increase too:http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=21485You want 10 to 1 on power, with 10k power, giving wizzies a 100k dmg spell. I think thats a tad high. Ok, you usually dont have full power in a raid, but if ye work on it, should be possible, and then you have a 50k nuke as it is now...

[Zyphius]

<DIV>Do you honestly believe that the avg wizard is going to be anywhere NEAR that at launch? Or even way after launch? With adornments and decent armor, the best I was able to acheive on beta was just below 8k. The max manaburn hit for before being nerfed to hell and back was ~39k.</DIV>

[JohnDoe058]

<DIV>Meh...since it has a 7sec cast/5min recast, why not have it be 10k + 5xpower, so that it always does good dmg, but can't get insanely high, as in 10xpower?</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

10k + 7k x 5 = 45k / 7k = 6.4 ratio.

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> 10k + 7k x 5 = 45k / 7k = 6.4 ratio.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileysurprised:</P> <P>He did the math right this time!  :smileytongue:</P>

[TheBu]

<P>   the spell was better before and not everyone cared about it before</P> <P>description:<BR>Do they even ready this stuff?<BR>2.Applies manaburn immunity. last for 30.0 secs<BR>4. Manaburn cannot be cast on an enemy that has recently been manaburned<BR>Does this no mean the same thing?</P> <P>Damage:<BR>Nurfing us from the get go. to much damage put a timer on it.. hello? has a wizzy never don 30k hit before with our other spells? I would expect this spell to do more damage than 2 or 3 of our spells. it uses all our mana</P> <P>Hated:<BR>what good does this do? I sometimes one shot stuff now. might help for pvp</P> <P>20 point in power:<BR>That is a lot of points on spells i do not allways use or can use.<BR>puhaps if they wanted us to use more aa points in it then make manaburn have 1-5 ranks or so and each point 1x more damage.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Applies Manaburn Immunity. Lasts 30.0 seconds.  Manaburn cannot be cast on an enemy that has recently been Manaburned.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This is to prevent wizard death squads from forming.  No 24 wizard raids burning mobs down before they blink.</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What stoping this from hapining now? we can all ready dish out that much or more damage to a single mob.<BR>And what names have less hp than a 24x manaburn?</P> <P> </P> <P>like i said not everyone cared about it before and it no better now.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> 10k + 7k x 5 = 45k / 7k = 6.4 ratio.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileysurprised:</P> <P>He did the math right this time!  :smileytongue:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I actually had my coffee this morning <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[JohnDoe058]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> 10k + 7k x 5 = 45k / 7k = 6.4 ratio.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The important thing here is that it would have better ratio when ur power pool is lower...for example...</P> <P>2000 power used = 10k + (5 * 2k) = 20</P> <P>20k / 2k power = 10.0 ratio</P> <P>but max hit would still be < 65k, and would still be capped at 50% of mob's max health, so as to send away complaints about it being "overpowered" in PvP and for farming purposes.</P> <P> </P>

[iceriven2]

Unless they up the damage in some way the spell makes no sense....why spend AA points on nuke that consumes all your power when you can cast ice nova and fusion and get the same damage.    They have to up the damage or add a benifical secondary effect or the only thing manaburn will be doin is getting a free respec out of ppl AA line up.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crack Junkie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> 10k + 7k x 5 = 45k / 7k = 6.4 ratio.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The important thing here is that it would have better ratio when ur power pool is lower...for example...</P> <P>2000 power used = 10k + (5 * 2k) = 20</P> <P>20k / 2k power = 10.0 ratio</P> <P>but max hit would still be < 65k, and would still be capped at 50% of mob's max health, so as to send away complaints about it being "overpowered" in PvP and for farming purposes.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>good point, it would make it more useful.</P> <P>It would kind of defeat the purpose of "mana burn" however if you always do a set amount of damage, whats to stop you from using it when your oop for a "free" 10k  unresistable nuke?  do you think thats appropriate to have an ability like that?</P>

[JohnDoe058]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crack Junkie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> 10k + 7k x 5 = 45k / 7k = 6.4 ratio.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The important thing here is that it would have better ratio when ur power pool is lower...for example...</P> <P>2000 power used = 10k + (5 * 2k) = 20</P> <P>20k / 2k power = 10.0 ratio</P> <P>but max hit would still be < 65k, and would still be capped at 50% of mob's max health, so as to send away complaints about it being "overpowered" in PvP and for farming purposes.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>good point, it would make it more useful.</P> <P>It would kind of defeat the purpose of "mana burn" however if you always do a set amount of damage, whats to stop you from using it when your oop for a "free" 10k  unresistable nuke?  do you think thats appropriate to have an ability like that?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With a 7 sec cast and 5 min recast?  One that takes tons of AP points spent on weak abilities, in order to unlock?  Absolutely.</DIV>

[-Morlande]

cannot exceed 50% of targets max health.....whats the point? i can do 50% with fusion on a heroic.good job completely nerfing this to stupiditythis single addition makes it uselessif you dont want to give us manaburn then give us a different aathis restriction will make this a wasted slot on our aa tree<div></div>

[tass]

for some reason this spell seems even more worthless now than it did in beta. At least when u used all ur mana u got a big hit for it. This thing isnt even worth using soloing.<div></div>

[Gimlo]

<P>LOL manaburn s now a joke </P> <P>thks soe </P>

[govtcheeze]

<P>Manaburn is very useful, esp during harder named fights.</P> <P>Solo, use your mana efficient spells to get the mob to 49%, shackle, MB, and loot up.</P> <P>In a group, group drops mob to 55% and you cast MB. The 7 seconds gives you enough time to hit your macro key of "MANABURN INC, TANK use RESCUE on me when it hits!!". MB hits, tank rescues, mob dies and you loot up.</P> <P>Only place it lacks is in a raid setting, and the 50% + 30 second immunity buff the mob gets makes an increase against epics very doable. 10:1 or 15:1 <EM>if target is epic </EM>can be added to make this useful for ALL play types.</P> <P>If you want an easy button, the wizard class is not for you.</P><p>Message Edited by govtcheeze on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:57 AM</span>

[Victicu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>govtcheeze wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>If you want an easy button, the wizard class is not for you.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>Ice Nova/Fusion = easy buttonManaburn = stupid buttonIf you want a useful Manaburn the wizard class is not for you.</div><p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 PM</span>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>govtcheeze wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Manaburn is very useful, esp during harder named fights.</p> <p>Solo, use your mana efficient spells to get the mob to 49%, shackle, MB, and loot up.</p><p><font color="#cc0000">Are you kidding me?  I don't know about you, but I for one don't see very high dps numbers when I spam my "mana efficient spells", so in this case you are going to limit your dps just to be able to have enough mana to do some damage with manaburn, when you could easily root-nuke much more efficiently with higher damage nukes.  Not to mention, even when using said efficient spells, you are still going to have to consume a lot of power to get the mob to 49% with thos espells, and by that time you won't have enough mana to hit the mob for 50%.  Have you even used this spell before?</font></p> <p>In a group, group drops mob to 55% and you cast MB. The 7 seconds gives you enough time to hit your macro key of "MANABURN INC, TANK use RESCUE on me when it hits!!". MB hits, tank rescues, mob dies and you loot up.</p><p><font color="#cc0000">Yeah...exactly what I want to do in a group settings...blow my wad on mana burn and either spend the next 6 pulls waiting for my power to go up, or make the rest of the group wait there until my power fills up.  Again, this will kill your overall dps in a zone, and/or make the rest of your group hate you for making a zone take 3x as long as it should have because of waiting around for power.  Excellent idea.</font></p> <p>Only place it lacks is in a raid setting, and the 50% + 30 second immunity buff the mob gets makes an increase against epics very doable. 10:1 or 15:1 <em>if target is epic </em>can be added to make this useful for ALL play types.</p><p><font color="#cc0000">THIS I agree with, but only in part.  Take out the "if epic" part and make it actually do 10-15 damage per power and you have yourself a nice, somewhat efficient spell for all situations.  It wont cost as much to do 50% of a mob's HP, thus making continuing DPS very doable, and in a raid setting, you have a situational spell that will actually see some use, especially when a mob is low on HP, since you could actually do more damage with Manaburn than Ice Nova.  </font></p> <p>If you want an easy button, the wizard class is not for you.</p><p><font color="#cc0000">Noone wants an easy button, but this was like dangling a delicious steak in front of our faces, and then replacing it with week old roadkill before giving it to us.  I started off being excited about going down the line to get Manaburn...now theres no way I'm taking it if it stays as is...none of our end abilities are any good at all...Manaburn was the only saving grace and now it has been shot to hell as well...way to go.</font></p><p>Message Edited by govtcheeze on <span class="date_text">11-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:57 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Zyphius]

/agree with Razerblaze.

[standupwookie]

Well, manaburn could be a somewhat effect ability if you are pre-50 and have it.....that would be a 10k nuke when the best we have is 2k or something.But once you have all your AAs and have great proc equipment and religion AAs, there is no point to be using this spell anywhere except a PVP server, and now that is nerfed.Why blow all your power for a big nuke when you can freehand/catalyst fusion and get the same thing and still have loads of power left over to do it again.

[Prattic]

<P>Manaburn is an absolute joke. Thanks SOE for once again wasting our time with your garbage. Please, have your devs play a wizard in a raiding guild and then come tell me what the point of this spell is.</P> <P>Add to that the fact that necromancers get life burn. It drops them to 1HP and takes no power. Excuse me? Health is regained in a raid situation 10x more easily than power is. Necromancers parsing 3000DPS+ in 1+ minute long fights with less than 5% mana use is absolutely broken. Oh wait, I could mana burn for 40k and struggle to get power back for the remaining 30 seconds of the fight. I might parse 700DPS.</P> <P>I'm severely disappointed in the thoughtfulness of the Wizard AAs.</P>

[Aeg]

<DIV>lifeburn can be frequently used in any circumstance as long as you have a healer in your group, you dont even need mana for it, oh wait, necros dont ever run out of mana anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you use manaburn in raids it totally [Removed for Content] your dps for the rest of the fight and will more likely than not cause instant agro, killing you as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>manaburn is bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in comparison to lifeburn. hell, necros can outdps out without lifeburn easily enough.</DIV>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pratticus wrote:<div></div> <p><font color="#ffff00">Add to that the fact that necromancers get life burn. It drops them to 1HP and takes no power.</font> Excuse me? Health is regained in a raid situation 10x more easily than power is. Necromancers parsing 3000DPS+ in 1+ minute long fights with less than 5% mana use is absolutely broken. Oh wait, I could mana burn for 40k and struggle to get power back for the remaining 30 seconds of the fight. I might parse 700DPS.</p> <p>I'm severely disappointed in the thoughtfulness of the Wizard AAs.</p><hr></blockquote>Not only that, but you can't forget the fact that Necros can Lifeburn and then FEIGN so they generate 0 aggro as they rack up 50k damage from one spell at the low low cost of 8% of a healer's power.  I would be 100% satisfied with Manaburn if it dished out 15 damage per power as long as they reduced the cast time a bit.  7 seconds is absurd, especially now that it can only inflict 50% of a mob's HP....as it stands, an Ice Nova can inflict more damage on a non epic than Manaburn at a fraction of the power cost.  Not only that, but the line Manaburn falls under is a joke.  20 points in the Power line?  Yeah...let me go ahead and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] my DPS even MORE to get a horrible end line AA that effectively curbs my DPS after I use it.  Say goodnight, DPS.  Even if Manaburn was changed to do more damage, I would still have to think about it because of the line it is preceeded by.  The Fire line is a hefty DPS boost seeing how not only does it speed up the time to cast the spells, but it reduces power cost allowing you to keep up DPS on longer fights.  I'm in no way interested in wasting AA points on power transfers and conversions...I have enough items to click on in the off chance I need power mid-fight.</div>

[Mortimus V.]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Ice Nova/Fusion = easy button<BR><BR>Manaburn = stupid button<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh heh.  Honestly, no matter how stupid it really is, I will eventually possess Manaburn on my Wizard.  To me (and perhaps me alone), that's part of what a Wizard *IS*... call it an RP decision.</P> <P>And yes, this Wizard will have Manashield as well.  :smileytongue:</P>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<P>SOE, you have got to revisit this manaburn ability.  I can't find a use for it in any situation, and I've been trying hard.  I desperately wanted to prove all you nasayers wrong, but you're not, this ability is useless.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'd trade it in a hot second for 'agro burn' instead.  Let my mana burn off equal to the amount of hate i have and then  reset my agro.  Maybe then i could survive a MT death, or do something about nuking too hard too early.  The biggest issue w/ wizzies is the lack of agro dumping, and you gave us nothing to help w/ that.</P>

[Ultimatum]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<div></div>I'd trade it in a hot second for 'agro burn' instead.  Let my mana burn off equal to the amount of hate i have and then  reset my agro.  Maybe then i could survive a MT death, or do something about nuking too hard too early.  The biggest issue w/ wizzies is the lack of agro dumping, and you gave us nothing to help w/ that.<hr></blockquote>That's actually quite a cool concept imo.  A spell that read "reduces agro by 50%.  Deals damage 2 for every agro point reduced in this way" would freaking rock house.  Not only would it not be able to one shot mobs off the bat, but it would reward you in long fights like Vilucidae where you could build up tons of agro and deliver a massive hit towards the end when it is needed.  Agroburn should replace Manaburn and be set to a 15 minute timer, take off the "can only inflict 50% of mobs HP" stipulation and Wizards would rejoice...a huge nuke coupled with huge agro reduction for those long fights...they'd have to balance it so that during a 10 minute fight you couldn't do 500k in one hit though...I don't know what number would be fair for Damage:Agro point...2 was just an example.Another suggestion would be to replace Manaburn with a nuke that deals damage equal to how much you did since you engaged...might be hard to do, and unbalanced in the longer fights, but I'm just throwing ideas out there...FFXII gave me another cool idea for a spell, though it might be more geared toward an Illusionist or Coercer...something like Chronoburn...deals 200 damage per second that you have been engaged in combat, or since Chronoburn was last used (whichever is smaller).  At the end of an 8 minute fight?  Lay into the mob with a nice 96k Chronoburn...a spell like this wouldn't be overpowered at all since it would only really do insane damage on long fights.  And making it reset when you use it would prevent increasingly huge hits in the same fight.  12k after a minute of fighting wouldn't be overpowered at all, and if something like that replaced Manaburn, a 5 minute timer isn't unreasonable at all.</div><p>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:55 PM</span>

[Falcogen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <P>SOE, you have got to revisit this manaburn ability.  I can't find a use for it in any situation, and I've been trying hard.  I desperately wanted to prove all you nasayers wrong, but you're not, this ability is useless.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>IMO they should just remove it as its complete crap !!</P> <P>I'd take a double attack melee proc over manaburn</P>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <P>SOE, you have got to revisit this manaburn ability.  I can't find a use for it in any situation, and I've been trying hard.  I desperately wanted to prove all you nasayers wrong, but you're not, this ability is useless.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Every once in a while I say something stupid or speak too soon.  This is just another example (am I allowed to flame myself?).</P> <P>After a week or so of testing out manaburn in various scenerious, I've decided that I was wrong, and it is indeed useful, it might even be fair to classify it as uber.</P> <P>Solo - I can now kill virtually any mob that I can get to 50%...  which happens to be alot of the casters.  If I open w/ Icenova, incapacitate, surging tempest and BoL I can usually get a caster down to close to 50% before he even gets to start nuking me... and if he is at 50%, he's wizzie bait.</P> <P>Group - less effective.  Useless on ordinary trash mobs in group, since you usually pull fast and mobs tend to die faster.  Hell, I dont even get off an IceNova in most groups...  But on named mobs w/ lots of hps, it is great, even in group setup.  Just use your normal spell order, then finish him w/ manaburn (since you usually med after a named).</P> <P>Raid - same as group for trash mobs really.  Its not worth using on trash, since you will go OOP and your dps will suck for the next pull, which typically comes quickly in a good raid.... But again, on named mobs, it is great.  Just use your normal spell casting techniques, but just before he dies, hit manaburn (if you have any mana left).  IF you do have mana left when the named is about to die, then manaburn just cranks up your dps and lets you not "waste" this remaining mana.... of course, if you are already out of mana at end of fight, its not gonna help you (I'm usually close to OOP at end of every named fight, but if I'm not... my dps is freaking awesome when I close w/ manaburn).</P> <P>Anyway, if you wanted them to un-nerf manaburn, you had better stop holding your breath...</P>

[govtcheeze]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <P>SOE, you have got to revisit this manaburn ability.  I can't find a use for it in any situation, and I've been trying hard.  I desperately wanted to prove all you nasayers wrong, but you're not, this ability is useless.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Every once in a while I say something stupid or speak too soon.  This is just another example (am I allowed to flame myself?).</P> <P>After a week or so of testing out manaburn in various scenerious, I've decided that I was wrong, and it is indeed useful, it might even be fair to classify it as uber.</P> <P>Solo - I can now kill virtually any mob that I can get to 50%...  which happens to be alot of the casters.  If I open w/ Icenova, incapacitate, surging tempest and BoL I can usually get a caster down to close to 50% before he even gets to start nuking me... and if he is at 50%, he's wizzie bait.</P> <P>Group - less effective.  Useless on ordinary trash mobs in group, since you usually pull fast and mobs tend to die faster.  Hell, I dont even get off an IceNova in most groups...  But on named mobs w/ lots of hps, it is great, even in group setup.  Just use your normal spell order, then finish him w/ manaburn (since you usually med after a named).</P> <P>Raid - same as group for trash mobs really.  Its not worth using on trash, since you will go OOP and your dps will suck for the next pull, which typically comes quickly in a good raid.... But again, on named mobs, it is great.  Just use your normal spell casting techniques, but just before he dies, hit manaburn (if you have any mana left).  IF you do have mana left when the named is about to die, then manaburn just cranks up your dps and lets you not "waste" this remaining mana.... of course, if you are already out of mana at end of fight, its not gonna help you (I'm usually close to OOP at end of every named fight, but if I'm not... my dps is freaking awesome when I close w/ manaburn).</P> <P>Anyway, if you wanted them to un-nerf manaburn, you had better stop holding your breath...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why does this sound so familiar ....</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh yea, now I remember:</P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> govtcheeze wrote:<BR> <P>Manaburn is very useful, esp during harder named fights.</P> <P>Solo, use your mana efficient spells to get the mob to 49%, shackle, MB, and loot up.</P> <P>In a group, group drops mob to 55% and you cast MB. The 7 seconds gives you enough time to hit your macro key of "MANABURN INC, TANK use RESCUE on me when it hits!!". MB hits, tank rescues, mob dies and you loot up.</P> <P>Only place it lacks is in a raid setting, and the 50% + 30 second immunity buff the mob gets makes an increase against epics very doable. 10:1 or 15:1 <EM>if target is epic </EM>can be added to make this useful for ALL play types.</P> <P>If you want an easy button, the wizard class is not for you.</P> <P>Message Edited by govtcheeze on <SPAN class=date_text>11-15-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:57 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> </P>

[Zyphius]

I don't expect them to un-nerf it. Have they ever un-nerfed us? Nope... I know this ability will remain the 2nd most useless ability the Wizard class has yet to see (corona being number one). I just wont waste my points on it.

[Victicu]

<div><blockquote><hr>govtcheeze wrote:<blockquote> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Manaburn is very useful, esp during harder named fights.</p><p>Solo, use your mana efficient spells to get the mob to 49%, shackle, MB, and loot up.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Why would you use your most mana efficent spells to get a mob to 50% only to set up to use your most NON-mana efficient spell, makes no sense at all.  You are trying to save mana only to use way more than you would have to if you just finished the mob normally?</font></p><p>In a group, group drops mob to 55% and you cast MB. The 7 seconds gives you enough time to hit your macro key of "MANABURN INC, TANK use RESCUE on me when it hits!!". MB hits, tank rescues, mob dies and you loot up.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Again, completely ridiculous.  You are going to blow a large portion of your power and force a tank to blow rescue because you want to show off your little manaburn?  The only time i could see a person using manaburn in a group setting is if the mob is already below 50% hp and the tank dies, forcing you to kill the mob before it kills you, and even then a simple ice nova or fusion would get the job done just as well, and cast faster thus increasing your chance at success.  If you use manaburn regularly in heroic groups they will call you an idiot for making things harder on the tank, and slowing them down because of your lack of power.</font></p><p></p><p>Only place it lacks is in a raid setting, and the 50% + 30 second immunity buff the mob gets makes an increase against epics very doable. 10:1 or 15:1 <em>if target is epic </em>can be added to make this useful for ALL play types.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Cant argue here too much.  Only use manaburn would have on raids would be to burn an add instantly.  That isnt possible with the 50% hp restriction.  So i cant think of any other use than hitting MB, and using it as an excuse to go afk cause you are now out of power.</font></p> <p>If you want an easy button, the wizard class is not for you.</p> <p>Message Edited by govtcheeze on <span class="date_text">11-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:57 AM</span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span><font color="#ff0000">I've come to the conclusion that manaburn is meant to be a toy.  It is fun to use but has no real purpose or place.  </font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Another great idea, with failed implementation.</font></p> <hr> </blockquote>Thanks for quoting your own post... it was illogical the first time... and still is now.</blockquote></div>

[govtcheeze]

<DIV>So you base this opinion on actual use of manaburn or on soundless theories?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The last poster changed his mind after he actually used the spell in the real world, not with pencil and paper ideas. I was in beta pre-manaburn, and have extensively tested each iteration of the spell in both group and solo settings. How about you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> govtcheeze wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Manaburn is very useful, <FONT color=#ff0000 size=7>esp during harder named fights</FONT>.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for quoting your own post... it was illogical the first time... and still is now.</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hi selective reading, meet bolded simple words to assist with comprehsion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let me get this straight ... you finally find a tough named up, likely spending an hour or two running around looking for one. Manaburn gives you an almost guarenteed shot at killing it, but you are gonna skip this step in order to make the fight longer, chance roots / stuns getting resisted and you getting 1-shotted, and miss on the chance at a steel box because you have to med for a minute after the fight? Are you even aware of what soloing a named means?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe you roll with such an elite group that there is no hard named fight, or you single pull every mob as your MT takes you around. Then I can understand your lack of seeing this ability useful. Myself, when I grouped our raid geared tank would typically pull everything in sight and let the group handle the mess. Fun, challenging, and sometimes quite exciting. Named would also be part of those pulls, so yes burning them down ASAP was a priority or letting lose that final big nuke saved the group. In those cases, letting lose all I had on a named was my #1 priority, the rest of the lesser DPS would mop up the trash. Zones like icy digs, nek, etc <FONT color=#ff0000>when they were new</FONT> also required skilled groups to win and having a big big nuke to burn a name's last health would have been very useful. 1 minute of medding > 10 minute revive run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a situational spell, and when used correctly has a lot of merit. You might actually have to think before mashing the button...if you want mindless T1 DPS, go roll a summoner.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line is, no one is forcing you to get the spell ... you no like, you no buy. Why so much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about a spell you do not intend to get?</DIV><p>Message Edited by govtcheeze on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 AM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> govtcheeze wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Manaburn is very useful, esp during harder named fights.</P> <P>Solo, use your mana efficient spells to get the mob to 49%, shackle, MB, and loot up.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Why would you use your most mana efficent spells to get a mob to 50% only to set up to use your most NON-mana efficient spell, makes no sense at all.  You are trying to save mana only to use way more than you would have to if you just finished the mob normally?</FONT><BR></P> <P>In a group, group drops mob to 55% and you cast MB. The 7 seconds gives you enough time to hit your macro key of "MANABURN INC, TANK use RESCUE on me when it hits!!". MB hits, tank rescues, mob dies and you loot up.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Again, completely ridiculous.  You are going to blow a large portion of your power and force a tank to blow rescue because you want to show off your little manaburn?  The only time i could see a person using manaburn in a group setting is if the mob is already below 50% hp and the tank dies, forcing you to kill the mob before it kills you, and even then a simple ice nova or fusion would get the job done just as well, and cast faster thus increasing your chance at success.  If you use manaburn regularly in heroic groups they will call you an idiot for making things harder on the tank, and slowing them down because of your lack of power.</FONT></P> <P></P><BR> <P>Only place it lacks is in a raid setting, and the 50% + 30 second immunity buff the mob gets makes an increase against epics very doable. 10:1 or 15:1 <EM>if target is epic </EM>can be added to make this useful for ALL play types.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Cant argue here too much.  Only use manaburn would have on raids would be to burn an add instantly.  That isnt possible with the 50% hp restriction.  So i cant think of any other use than hitting MB, and using it as an excuse to go afk cause you are now out of power.</FONT><BR></P> <P>If you want an easy button, the wizard class is not for you.</P> <P>Message Edited by govtcheeze on <SPAN class=date_text>11-15-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:57 AM</SPAN></P> <P><BR><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>I've come to the conclusion that manaburn is meant to be a toy.  It is fun to use but has no real purpose or place.  <BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><BR>Another great idea, with failed implementation.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for quoting your own post... it was illogical the first time... and still is now.<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>have to agree with victicious here, mana burn is not useful on raids, I was one of the people in beta with a beta buffed 70 fae wiz with 100 aa, and its not useful solo with the 50% hp restriction (cant one shot a solo mob add, and it takes 7s to cast so you'd probably be dead by then anyways)</P> <P>if the spells only great use is for a wizard to solo farmed named heroics, then its the WRONG implementation of the spell.  Do you really want more wizard bot farmers?</P>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>....</P> <P><BR>have to agree with victicious here, mana burn is not useful on raids, I was one of the people in beta with a beta buffed 70 fae wiz with 100 aa, and its not useful solo with the 50% hp restriction (cant one shot a solo mob add, and it takes 7s to cast so you'd <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>probably</FONT></STRONG> be dead by then anyways)</P> <P>if the spells only great use is for a wizard to solo farmed named heroics, then its the WRONG implementation of the spell.  Do you really want more wizard bot farmers?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The key word here is highlighted in red... again, you and the others are giving your best guess.  Don't knock it until you have tried it.. and not on beta, now, as is.</P> <P>I have this ability trained and I have found a very significant use for it in virtually all settings, if you can't... /shrug<BR></P>

[Ultimatum]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>govtcheeze wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>So you base this opinion on actual use of manaburn or on soundless theories?</div> <div> </div> <div>The last poster changed his mind after he actually used the spell in the real world, not with pencil and paper ideas. I was in beta pre-manaburn, and have extensively tested each iteration of the spell in both group and solo settings. How about you?</div> <div> </div> <div>---</div> <div> </div> <div>So let me get this straight ... you finally find a tough named up, likely spending an hour or two running around looking for one. Manaburn gives you an almost guarenteed shot at killing it, but you are gonna skip this step in order to make the fight longer, chance roots / stuns getting resisted and you getting 1-shotted, and miss on the chance at a steel box because you have to med for a minute after the fight? Are you even aware of what soloing a named means?</div> <div> </div> <div>Maybe you roll with such an elite group that there is no hard named fight, or you single pull every mob as your MT takes you around. Then I can understand your lack of seeing this ability useful. Myself, when I grouped our raid geared tank would typically pull everything in sight and let the group handle the mess. Fun, challenging, and sometimes quite exciting. Named would also be part of those pulls, so yes burning them down ASAP was a priority or letting lose that final big nuke saved the group. In those cases, letting lose all I had on a named was my #1 priority, the rest of the lesser DPS would mop up the trash. Zones like icy digs, nek, etc <font color="#ff0000">when they were new</font> also required skilled groups to win and having a big big nuke to burn a name's last health would have been very useful. 1 minute of medding > 10 minute revive run.</div> <div> </div> <div>It's a situational spell, and when used correctly has a lot of merit. You might actually have to think before mashing the button...if you want mindless T1 DPS, go roll a summoner.</div> <div> </div> <div>Bottom line is, no one is forcing you to get the spell ... you no like, you no buy. Why so much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about a spell you do not intend to get?</div><p>Message Edited by govtcheeze on <span class="date_text">11-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:56 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Explain to me how Manaburn gives you an almost guarenteed shot at killing a named in a situation that this couldn't be done without Manaburn.  If you're looking at a named with 50000 HP, the max you can do with Manaburn is 20k, and at the absurd cost of 4k power AND a 7 second cast time.  There is no possible way you can make an argument where it is an intelligent choice in ANY situation to burn that much power on that small of a nuke when you can just freehand/catalyst/Ice Nova for the low cost of 500 power and do the same, or likely MORE damage in a 4 second cast time spell that includes a knockback to give you time to root said mob.  In addition, if you are burning 65-70% of your power on one mob while you are fighting 8-10 from a big pull, you are gimping your group since you'll be OOP by the 3rd mob and might as well go make a sammich while the rest of the group finishes the encounter.  Also, if you are in a group and Manaburn is making the difference between killing a heroic named and NOT killing a heroic named on a regular basis, I'd hate to burst your bubble, but you and your group need some work.  Bottom line is Manaburn is nothing more than a crappy novelty spell so you can stroke your e-balls to seeing 40k pop up over an epic mob's head, at which point you now have free time to continue stroking because you're OOP and can't do anything else but eat yourself for power.  This isn't about "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about a spell you do not intend to get", it's about [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about a spell that Wizards WANT to get, but in it's current form it is complete garbage.  This is about [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing to try and get the spell fixed so it is actually usefull in PvP, Solo, Group, AND Raid encounters, and doesn't force us to sit there with our thumbs up our [Removed for Content] afterwards because we just burned 8k power on a low damage (compared to what else we could do with 8k power) nuke.  I don't understand how people can even argue in favor of this spell, unless they really have no idea how to play a Wizard effectively.  There is NOTHING effective about Manaburn...nothing.Now, if you still can't see how Manaburn is terrible for some odd reason, consider this:  To get manaburn you just effectively wasted 20 AA points in a useless line of power pumping.  I don't know about you, but with our non AA'd power conversions and all the power proc and clicky gear, I rarely have problems with power that 20 points in that line would fix.  So basically, you gain a minimal amount of power conversion for a terrible, power-unfriendly, DPS dropping spell.  If you put those 20 points into the Fire line, however, you effectively GAIN a considerable amount of DPS, not only by not draining 4k power to hit a heroic mob for 40%, but by increasing the cast times and reducing power costs of your most used spells.Don't listen to me though, or the rest of the intelligent Wizards who post here, continue believing in your delusions of Manaburn being an effective, useful spell, and stop complaining about the rest of us who would like to see it changed into something we all could agree on.<div><blockquote><hr>ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<p>The key word here is highlighted in red... again, you and the others are giving your best guess.  Don't knock it until you have tried it.. and not on beta, now, as is.</p> <p>I have this ability trained and I have found a very significant use for it in virtually all settings, if you can't... /shrug</p><hr></blockquote>NOW?!  It's worse NOW than it was on Beta!  Even when it DIDN'T have a 40% max health restriction it was terrible.  For the love of all that is unholy someone please explain to me what situations you are using this god-awful spell in that is is having a better effect than your normal order of casting...Sustained DPS > Spike DPS, expecially when your spike spell can't do more than 40% to a mob...I've hit heroic mobs for more damage with a crit Ball of Lava than I have with Manaburn, and at 1/8 the power cost.  Almost all of our single target nukes are around 14-18 damage per power point... 5:1 is abysmal, even if it can hit an epic mob for 40k it costs 8k power...if you are at a point where an epic mob is wiping your raid and 40k is going to save the day and kill the mob, AND YOU HAVE 8K POWER TO MANABURN IT, you are doing something TERRIBLY wrong.  End of story.</div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>....</P> <P><BR>have to agree with victicious here, mana burn is not useful on raids, <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>I was one of the people in beta with a beta buffed 70 fae wiz with 100 aa</STRONG></FONT>, and its not useful solo with the 50% hp restriction (cant one shot a solo mob add, and it takes 7s to cast so you'd <FONT color=#ffffff>probably</FONT> be dead by then anyways)</P> <P>if the spells only great use is for a wizard to solo farmed named heroics, then its the WRONG implementation of the spell.  Do you really want more wizard bot farmers?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The key word here is highlighted in red... again, you and the others are giving your best guess.  Don't knock it until you have tried it.. and not on beta, now, as is.</P> <P>I have this ability trained and I have found a very significant use for it in virtually all settings, if you can't... /shrug<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>nice quote job there bud, If you notice I did have the ability in beta, and I did find it useless in beta.  Dont stuff words in my mouth. </P> <P> </P> <P>to add to manaburn's useless ness, if you duel someone with it the 50% restriction is applied BEFORE a players resistance modifyer, and thus if you have 50% resists to magic, manaburn aint going to do 50% dmg to that player, it will be cut in half.  thats freaking [Removed for Content] for a 7s cast spell.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:43 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:43 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 AM</span>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>....</P> <P><BR>have to agree with victicious here, mana burn is not useful on raids, <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>I was one of the people in beta with a beta buffed 70 fae wiz with 100 aa</STRONG></FONT>, and its not useful solo with the 50% hp restriction (cant one shot a solo mob add, and it takes 7s to cast so you'd <FONT color=#ffffff>probably</FONT> be dead by then anyways)</P> <P>if the spells only great use is for a wizard to solo farmed named heroics, then its the WRONG implementation of the spell.  Do you really want more wizard bot farmers?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The key word here is highlighted in red... again, you and the others are giving your best guess.  Don't knock it until you have tried it.. <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>and not on beta, now, as is.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>I have this ability trained and I have found a very significant use for it in virtually all settings, if you can't... /shrug<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>nice quote job there bud, If you notice I did have the ability in beta, and I did find it useless in beta.  Dont stuff words in my mouth. </P> <P> </P> <P>to add to manaburn's useless ness, if you duel someone with it the 50% restriction is applied BEFORE a players resistance modifyer, and thus if you have 50% resists to magic, manaburn aint going to do 50% dmg to that player, it will be cut in half.  thats freaking [Removed for Content] for a 7s cast spell.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:43 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:43 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:45 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I dont mean to stuff words into your mouth, the simple fact is that you tried it on beta and didn't like it, came here and flamed it.. as did many others... but you were all wrong, it has incredible use.  Train it and go solo, then go duo, then go group, then go raid... THEN come here and post... that is exactly what I've done.  I am providing exact examples of its use, and how it enhances my class... everyone else is giving theory and "ya, but when i was in beta band camp"....</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Razerblaze wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...</P> <P> I don't understand how people can even argue in favor of this spell, unless they really have no idea how to play a Wizard effectively.  There is NOTHING effective about Manaburn...nothing.<BR><BR><SPAN class=date_text></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>...<BR></P></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not even sure how to reply to this... I might argue just the opposite about your ability to play a wizzie if you can't even read my post, where I specifically point our several uses for this awesome ability.  Just the other day i was trying to solo a group of werewolves w/ a named... i managed to get the peons down, but the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] named kept warping on top of me and almost had me dead... but i was able to get him to 50% as I had about 50hps left... now...  would fusion or ice nova have saved my life here?  would either have made any difference (considering both were also down since i used em to get him to 50%)... no, but manaburn sure did lay him to waste... and saved my [Removed for Content].  [Removed for Content] uber ability... train it, learn to use it situationally and please, please dont ever accuse those who can learn quicker then you of being poor players.<BR></P>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> and please, please dont ever accuse those who can learn quicker then you of being poor players.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>don't worry... he didn't... nor did any of the rest of us...

[Zyphius]

<DIV>The last few days of beta it was the same as it is now... except now they have restriced it even more (immunity).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sucked then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sucks now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's suckiness, in the same state as before, didn't somehow disappear because you said it does. We have used it, we know it blows [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and you don't know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you are talking about.</DIV>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>The last few days of beta it was the same as it is now... except now they have restriced it even more (immunity).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sucked then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sucks now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's suckiness, in the same state as before, didn't somehow disappear because you said it does. We have used it, we know it blows [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and you don't know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you are talking about.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your inability to discuss facts and even address my direct situational uses tells me all i need to know...  you have your head up your [Removed for Content] and wont listen to anyone... oh well... just keep believing that I made all this up... I would be willing to bet that you not only have it trained in a week or two, but that you use it regularly.  Until then, I'll conintue to provide usefull feedback on this usefull ability.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>....</P> <P><BR>have to agree with victicious here, mana burn is not useful on raids, <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>I was one of the people in beta with a beta buffed 70 fae wiz with 100 aa</STRONG></FONT>, and its not useful solo with the 50% hp restriction (cant one shot a solo mob add, and it takes 7s to cast so you'd <FONT color=#ffffff>probably</FONT> be dead by then anyways)</P> <P>if the spells only great use is for a wizard to solo farmed named heroics, then its the WRONG implementation of the spell.  Do you really want more wizard bot farmers?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The key word here is highlighted in red... again, you and the others are giving your best guess.  Don't knock it until you have tried it.. <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>and not on beta, now, as is.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>I have this ability trained and I have found a very significant use for it in virtually all settings, if you can't... /shrug<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>nice quote job there bud, If you notice I did have the ability in beta, and I did find it useless in beta.  Dont stuff words in my mouth. </P> <P> </P> <P>to add to manaburn's useless ness, if you duel someone with it the 50% restriction is applied BEFORE a players resistance modifyer, and thus if you have 50% resists to magic, manaburn aint going to do 50% dmg to that player, it will be cut in half.  thats freaking [Removed for Content] for a 7s cast spell.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:43 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:43 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:45 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I dont mean to stuff words into your mouth, the simple fact is that you tried it on beta and didn't like it, came here and flamed it.. as did many others... but you were all wrong, it has incredible use.  Train it and go solo, then go duo, then go group, then go raid... THEN come here and post... that is exactly what I've done.  I am providing exact examples of its use, and how it enhances my class... everyone else is giving theory and "ya, but when i was in beta band camp"....</P> <P><BR> I'm not even sure how to reply to this... I might argue just the opposite about your ability to play a wizzie if you can't even read my post, where I specifically point our several uses for this awesome ability.  Just the other day i was trying to solo a group of werewolves w/ a named... i managed to get the peons down, but the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] named kept warping on top of me and almost had me dead... but i was able to get him to 50% as I had about 50hps left... now...  would fusion or ice nova have saved my life here?  would either have made any difference (considering both were also down since i used em to get him to 50%)... no, but manaburn sure did lay him to waste... and saved my [Removed for Content].  [Removed for Content] uber ability... train it, learn to use it situationally and please, please dont ever accuse those who can learn quicker then you of being poor players.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>do you have a mental block?  manaburn in the last few days of beta was as [Removed for Content] as it is now, all the restrictions were there.  It sucked then and it sucks now.</P> <P>Lets take a step back and re-examine manaburn.</P> <P> </P> <P>You believe this ability to be useful in specific situations.  ignoring the glaring inaccuracy of your situations lets understand that you have to first spend 20 points in the power line, that do not directly enhance your dps.</P> <P>On top of that drawback you get an end line ability that is only useful (to you) in very specific situations. </P> <P>20 points in heat line can get net you up to 15% power cost reduction on 4 heat based attacks, or spread out to 3 points in each ability up to 9% (and 15% for one ability)</P> <P>in addition to the power cost savings on some core spells like irradiate, incapaciate, firestorm, ball of lava, and firey convultions, you gain dps increases with all except firestorm (range increase)</P> <P>So from a raiding wizard, putting 20 points into the power line AND 1 point for manaburn, would be foolish if not down right stupid to do especially when you can put those points into our core dps abilities and ALWAYS receive a benefit from them.</P> <P>power cost and spell haste on ball of lava alone make dumping points into the fire line worth more than manaburn itself.  Ball of lava is the core of nearly all wizards dps, along with ice nova and fusion.</P> <P>Now If manaburn was under say the "heat" or "cold" lines and all we had to do was spend one measily point to get it (since most wizards will max heat/cold lines) then i'm sure plenty of people would take the ability for the novelty factor (not for its useful ness)</P> <P> </P>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P><BR>do you have a mental block?  manaburn in the last few days of beta was as [Removed for Content] as it is now, all the restrictions were there.  It sucked then and it sucks now.</P> <P>Lets take a step back and re-examine manaburn.</P> <P> </P> <P>You believe this ability to be useful in specific situations.  ignoring the glaring inaccuracy of your situations lets understand that you have to first spend 20 points in the power line, that do not directly enhance your dps.</P> <P>On top of that drawback you get an end line ability that is only useful (to you) in very specific situations. </P> <P>20 points in heat line can get net you up to 15% power cost reduction on 4 heat based attacks, or spread out to 3 points in each ability up to 9% (and 15% for one ability)</P> <P>in addition to the power cost savings on some core spells like irradiate, incapaciate, firestorm, ball of lava, and firey convultions, you gain dps increases with all except firestorm (range increase)</P> <P>So from a raiding wizard, putting 20 points into the power line AND 1 point for manaburn, would be foolish if not down right stupid to do especially when you can put those points into our core dps abilities and ALWAYS receive a benefit from them.</P> <P>power cost and spell haste on ball of lava alone make dumping points into the fire line worth more than manaburn itself.  Ball of lava is the core of nearly all wizards dps, along with ice nova and fusion.</P> <P>Now If manaburn was under say the "heat" or "cold" lines and all we had to do was spend one measily point to get it (since most wizards will max heat/cold lines) then i'm sure plenty of people would take the ability for the novelty factor (not for its useful ness)</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>no mental block, but you just admited that it was only in its current state for a few days, so you claim to have really tested it out in that time?  maybe, maybe not...  I've been testing it for a week+ and i disagree... but that is all good.</P> <P>Now, thanks for at least providing examples, I'm really sick of reading, "it sucks cause i said so".</P> <P>You are right about the dps improvements in fire line... but you are not entirely right about power giving zero dps improvement.  I went down agi and str (w/out catalyst) for my aa's, and I burn through power like a mad man.  On lots of named mobs in raids (and even on trash mobs) I end up OOP, I end up pumping power at the end of LOTS of fights... adding power and improving my power pump spell directly influenced my dps... this is a fact.  I was actually happy to go down the power line, it was my second choice (below ice, above fire).</P> <P>If you are trying to do consistent dps, then going fire (or ice) will improve your dps across the board.  But I have read the parse threads and I have parsed our own raids, manaburn can be used on a raid mob to crank your dps WAY up... sure, you are OOP after that, but it is awesome for named mobs where you are going to med.  I dont have direct fire aa parses to compare against, but I would be willing to bet that if you add the extra dps from a manaburn (used correctly, thank you) every 5mins, it is probably about the same as a consistent dps increase across the board from an an overall dps perspective on raids.</P> <P>Look, manaburn IS useful and if used situationally, its even awesome.  If you believe fire is a better choice for your raiding wizzie, then that is fine... the customer is always right... train fire and be happy.  What I'm doing here is telling all those who come here and claim manaburn just plain sucks and is completely useless that they are very, very wrong.<BR></P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P><BR>do you have a mental block?  manaburn in the last few days of beta was as [Removed for Content] as it is now, all the restrictions were there.  It sucked then and it sucks now.</P> <P>Lets take a step back and re-examine manaburn.</P> <P> </P> <P>You believe this ability to be useful in specific situations.  ignoring the glaring inaccuracy of your situations lets understand that you have to first spend 20 points in the power line, that do not directly enhance your dps.</P> <P>On top of that drawback you get an end line ability that is only useful (to you) in very specific situations. </P> <P>20 points in heat line can get net you up to 15% power cost reduction on 4 heat based attacks, or spread out to 3 points in each ability up to 9% (and 15% for one ability)</P> <P>in addition to the power cost savings on some core spells like irradiate, incapaciate, firestorm, ball of lava, and firey convultions, you gain dps increases with all except firestorm (range increase)</P> <P>So from a raiding wizard, putting 20 points into the power line AND 1 point for manaburn, would be foolish if not down right stupid to do especially when you can put those points into our core dps abilities and ALWAYS receive a benefit from them.</P> <P>power cost and spell haste on ball of lava alone make dumping points into the fire line worth more than manaburn itself.  Ball of lava is the core of nearly all wizards dps, along with ice nova and fusion.</P> <P>Now If manaburn was under say the "heat" or "cold" lines and all we had to do was spend one measily point to get it (since most wizards will max heat/cold lines) then i'm sure plenty of people would take the ability for the novelty factor (not for its useful ness)</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>no mental block, but you just admited that it was only in its current state for a few days, so you claim to have really tested it out in that time?  maybe, maybe not...  I've been testing it for a week+ and i disagree... but that is all good.</P> <P>Now, thanks for at least providing examples, I'm really sick of reading, "it sucks cause i said so".</P> <P>You are right about the dps improvements in fire line... but you are not entirely right about power giving zero dps improvement.  I went down agi and str (w/out catalyst) for my aa's, and I burn through power like a mad man.  On lots of named mobs in raids (and even on trash mobs) I end up OOP, I end up pumping power at the end of LOTS of fights... adding power and improving my power pump spell directly influenced my dps... this is a fact.  I was actually happy to go down the power line, it was my second choice (below ice, above fire).</P> <P>If you are trying to do consistent dps, then going fire (or ice) will improve your dps across the board.  But I have read the parse threads and I have parsed our own raids, manaburn can be used on a raid mob to crank your dps WAY up... sure, you are OOP after that, but it is awesome for named mobs where you are going to med.  I dont have direct fire aa parses to compare against, but I would be willing to bet that if you add the extra dps from a manaburn (used correctly, thank you) every 5mins, it is probably about the same as a consistent dps increase across the board from an an overall dps perspective on raids.</P> <P>Look, manaburn IS useful and if used situationally, its even awesome.  If you believe fire is a better choice for your raiding wizzie, then that is fine... the customer is always right... train fire and be happy.  What I'm doing here is telling all those who come here and claim manaburn just plain sucks and is completely useless that they are very, very wrong.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>the only time power is an issue is on named fights, in almost all the KOS and EOF raid zones you have to clear more trash than you do named.</P> <P>Having an additional 70 some odd power from fortify elements, and an additional 150 or so on vital conversion, is NOT going to to increase your dps by the same margin as reducing the power costs on our fire spells, neither is turning on vitalic cropping mid fight and letting it return power over a 15 second duration.  (if you find you have to use this during a fight your doing something wrong)</P> <P>So the in-direct effect of having a more efficient health>power conversion and another 70 or so power would only come into play on a named fight.</P> <P>Think of it this way, you take the final 12% cast time reduction from AGI, a spell lets just say incapaciate refreshes in 26.4 seconds </P> <P>now say the spell refreshes while your casting ball of lava (lets say 2.6 seconds without taking eof aa's and maxed agi kos aa)</P> <P>after your done casting ball of lava you then start to cast incapaciate, but the direct benefit of incapaciate (the 3.6 seconds faster recast) is now nearly gone since you spent 3.1s (with refresh) casting ball of lava and your REAL benefit is only a time savings of .5 seconds.</P> <P>the power line in itself is a percieved benefit much like the -12% cast time reduction.  In that if you never end up using them (vital conversion, intromission, cropping ect) they provide 0 benefit.</P> <P>now since the fire line directly reduces the costs on spells its benefit is no longer perceived but actually quantifyable.  in addition to the cost reduction it adds some percieved dps bonuses (recast) and direct dps bonuses (cast time)</P> <P> </P>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>...</P> <P>Think of it this way, you take the final 12% cast time reduction from AGI, a spell lets just say incapaciate refreshes in 26.4 seconds</P> <P>now say the spell refreshes while your casting ball of lava (lets say 2.6 seconds without taking eof aa's and maxed agi kos aa)</P> <P>after your done casting ball of lava you then start to cast incapaciate, but the direct benefit of incapaciate (the 3.6 seconds faster recast) is now nearly gone since you spent 3.1s (with refresh) casting ball of lava and your REAL benefit is only a time savings of .5 seconds.</P> <P>the power line in itself is a percieved benefit much like the -12% cast time reduction.  In that if you never end up using them (vital conversion, intromission, cropping ect) they provide 0 benefit.</P> <P>now since the fire line directly reduces the costs on spells its benefit is no longer perceived but actually quantifyable.  in addition to the cost reduction it adds some percieved dps bonuses (recast) and direct dps bonuses (cast time)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The real benefit I've gotten from faster cast timers and refresh is the ability to spam less spells in your overall casting order, since they are available sooner, which does improve dps...not totally lost in your "preceived vs. real" examples.</P> <P>However, the points you make are valid and I am not here to agrue about the benefit of the fire line, I agree they are good.  They will add overall dps.</P> <P>What I am here to do is show how ignorant these comments are:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>The last few days of beta it was the same as it is now... except now they have restriced it even more (immunity).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sucked then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sucks now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's suckiness, in the same state as before, didn't somehow disappear because you said it does. We have used it, we know it blows [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and you don't know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you are talking about.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and these</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gimlore wrote:<BR> <P>LOL manaburn s now a joke</P> <P>thks soe<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and these</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> govtcheeze wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>If you want an easy button, the wizard class is not for you.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ice Nova/Fusion = easy button<BR><BR>Manaburn = stupid button<BR><BR><BR>If you want a useful Manaburn the wizard class is not for you.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-15-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:32 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>and these</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pratticus wrote:<BR> <P>Manaburn is an absolute joke. Thanks SOE for once again wasting our time with your garbage. Please, have your devs play a wizard in a raiding guild and then come tell me what the point of this spell is.</P> <P>...</P> <P>I'm severely disappointed in the thoughtfulness of the Wizard AAs.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The fire line is useful, the ice line is useful... and guess what, so is the power line.<BR></P> <P>I'll stop now so you can get in the last word...</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>...</P> <P>Think of it this way, you take the final 12% cast time reduction from AGI, a spell lets just say incapaciate refreshes in 26.4 seconds</P> <P>now say the spell refreshes while your casting ball of lava (lets say 2.6 seconds without taking eof aa's and maxed agi kos aa)</P> <P>after your done casting ball of lava you then start to cast incapaciate, but the direct benefit of incapaciate (the 3.6 seconds faster recast) is now nearly gone since you spent 3.1s (with refresh) casting ball of lava and your REAL benefit is only a time savings of .5 seconds.</P> <P>the power line in itself is a percieved benefit much like the -12% cast time reduction.  In that if you never end up using them (vital conversion, intromission, cropping ect) they provide 0 benefit.</P> <P>now since the fire line directly reduces the costs on spells its benefit is no longer perceived but actually quantifyable.  in addition to the cost reduction it adds some percieved dps bonuses (recast) and direct dps bonuses (cast time)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The real benefit I've gotten from faster cast timers and refresh is the ability to spam less spells in your overall casting order, since they are available sooner, which does improve dps...not totally lost in your "preceived vs. real" examples.</P> <P>However, the points you make are valid and I am not here to agrue about the benefit of the fire line, I agree they are good.  They will add overall dps.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm showing an example of how recast reductions provide less benefit than cast time reductions, and comparing it to the bonus's the power line provides.  </P> <P>This is a direct comparison used to underline my original point that spending 20 points in the power line would have a much less impact on a players dps than if they spent those points in fire and ice lines.  That in turn goes back to my  point that spending 20 points to get manaburn in the power line does not outweigh any percieved positives you have about manaburn.</P> <P>So in reality my discussion of the merits of the fire line OVER the power line, is totally relevant to my point.  </P> <P>What you have now done with the above post is agree to the merits of the fire line, but completely dodged the point of spending those 20 points required for manaburn somewhere else.  Now instead your claiming to dispute the mindless one liner posts from people about manaburn's useless ness.<BR></P>

[Sant]

I just got manaburn at 32 lvl and I find that its pretty usefull solo and in groups. Of course becuase of the timer it really only allows me to finish a mob fast every ten minutes but it has allowed me to do alot of damage quickly when i have needed it. I dont't know about higher levels but in the 30s it nice. <div></div>

[Zyphius]

<DIV>Ok no0b... You want specific examples of it being totally useless?? Ask and you shall receive:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 1: Solo mobs</DIV> <DIV>7k Power (bout average for a decently geared solo wizard)</DIV> <DIV>Manaburn - Mob is hit for about 4k (half his health). Ice Nova would have one shotted it, for ~400 power. You sucked up 800 power for that manaburn. Winner: Ice Nova</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 2a: ^^^ single heroic (solo)</DIV> <DIV>7k Power</DIV> <DIV>Root, power converge, manaburn. Mob is at 50%. You hit for ~15k for 3k power. 7sec cast. Cat + FS + Ice Nova = 25k easy. Mob is either dead, or a BoL and Incapacitate will finish him off. Total power consumed = <1k. Winner: Ice Nova</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 2b: ^^^ single heroic (group)</DIV> <DIV>8k power (being very generous)</DIV> <DIV>By the time you finish casting manaburn, mob is dead. Period.</DIV> <DIV>IF it isn't somehow, and you manage to take the last 3k hp from it with MB, you have expelled 600 power for that hit. BoL would have done it in half that. Winner: Any other spell in our spellbook</DIV> <DIV>Also, on above situation, your DPS now SUCKS [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. You hit one time for 3k. You could have Ice Nova'd on the pull, incapacitate, and BoL... done about 1500-2k DPS, and have plenty of power to spare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 3: Multi-mob heroic group:</DIV> <DIV>8k Power</DIV> <DIV>Only an idiot would blow a 7sec cast spell for 50% damage on one mob in such a group. All GOOD wizards out there know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 4: ^^^ Epic single</DIV> <DIV>8k Power</DIV> <DIV>Option 1: First of all, 40k is no where near even remotely close to half an epic's hit points. So, you hit it for 40k, and expel 8k power. Now you are doing nothing (and are possibly dead from aggro). In 8 secs, you can hit for 15-20k Ice Nova, and as high as 30k Fusion, for 1k power. You have done just as much, if not more, damage, and still have 7k power to continue nuking. Now which one is going to provide the highest DPS? This is a no brainer.</DIV> <DIV>Option 2: You hold MB till the end. Now, if you are doing your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] job, you MIGHT have as much as 1k power, by then (because you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well better have been nuking the whole fight). MB hits for 5k. A crit on BoL will easily do that, in less cast time, for much much less power. Ice Nova will do far more, in much less cast time, for much much less power. For 700 power, and about the same cast time, you can hit it with both, and do upwards of 20k.</DIV> <DIV>Disclaimer: All of the above raid scenario is assuming raid debuffs. You are in a raid, after all.</DIV> <DIV>Winner: All other nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MB is useless. It is a fun novelty, but now only in a raid (since that is the ONLY time you will get a 40k hit with it). It used to be a fun novelty to goof off with on solos and heroics. Now it is just a waste of 7.5 seconds of your casting order.</DIV><p>Message Edited by putergod on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:05 AM</span>

[Ultimatum]

^^ Spot on...Funny thing is, I can't recall seeing actual realistic implications like this as to how MB is actually useful.  People claim to have found "many useful situations" for it, but the only situations I see are completely unrealistic.  I guess that's because the spell does, in fact, suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[bas]

<DIV>Anyone who thinks manaburn is useful should just log off, proceed to delete your wizard, uninstall the game because your worthless and shouldnt be playing this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone that does testing knows that its garbage.  Its pretty sad now that necros have lifeburn how bad they can own us in DPS.  Our main necro was pushing 3k dps easy on single mobs without a problem while i was peaking at around 2200 going all out.  Of coruse a necro can do a lot more damage over time, and on AE mobs, o man it gets scary, pushing 4k dps without much problem.  Ask any good necro how sick lifeburn is....  Its soo much better cause they use no power for it, just life which can be healed back up and they can continue doing dps.  If we use manaburn, we will probably just die, or be out of power for the rest of the fight and sit there and use our power spells to try and get power back while our DPS falls through the floor.  Its useless, completely useless, and hopefully the devs will notice how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing horrible the wizard's aa's are and will give us some love one day.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it is right now, there is no reason to play a wizard.  Any good swashie,brigand,conj,necro or assassin can destroy us in dps if played right and its sad.  Why be the class that has to depend soo much on other classes to even come close to competing with those top classes.  I just dont understand why devs hate wizards soo much, maybe one day that will change, and we will be on top where we should be w/ warlocks with everyone else a bit behind us.  We are the top Mages, suppose to cause massive destruction, but that isnt happening at all right now.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by basik on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 AM</span>

[Sant]

<P>I am not saying that Manaburn is usefull when you are a hi level raid wizard but for leveling and doing quests its very usefull.</P> <P>I was able to solo bloodtalon and many other ^^^ heroics that i would normally never be able to solo becuase all I had to do is get them to half life then manburn them for the win.</P> <P>You guys seem way to adament in your hate of a skill that may not be the best for raids but is very usefull as you are leveling.</P> <P>MANBURN for the win.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. calling posters names becuase they dont agree with you make's you look like an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P>

[bas]

<DIV>rofl @ lvl 30..... Once you get Ice nova buddy, or even ice comet, youll notice a bit more how useless manaburn really is.</DIV>

[Fews]

<DIV>Yep, lifeburn looks like a fun really useful spell for necros in raids. They can ask for healer help, which increases interaction, they see their life go down, but heals save them..so more excitemnt..and they get an addition 700-1000dps on under 2 min encounters so even more outperformance, and it can be used often. SOE should keep lifeburn fun for necros. (But yeah necros are insane how SOE has balanced them in comparison to sorcerers)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now Manaburn. Almost useless....note I say almost. I won't get it. But if I really....really.. try and do a mental pretzel and look for a use for this (particularily in raids)..well there is a situational, possible, but unproven use. If there is a mob where you need to kill it before a script heals it...and the 40K damage does it when  23K nova(nor a 28K Sol Ro favor) doesn't, and you have 7 second foreknowledge. Sure it might have a use...But I would be crazy to spend 21+AAs to do that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with the analysis above, showing different scenerios and how manaburn would be no value in them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lifeburn is a much more functional, fun, and valid end choice for necros(Classes heal hp, Classes don't heal power)</DIV> <DIV>I think manaburn should be there only as a red herring so that noob wizards who like to see big numbers have something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fews]

<DIV>Oh, and how much is 40K?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well in the later EoF raid zones such as the instance 24 man zone in Mistmore, when we went into it certain trash mobs have over 2 million hit points, and once or twice an encounter had two of them. 40k will drop one of them from 50% health to 48%....and that would be a total waste/inefficient use of power. As a principal DPS class you probably need to be responsible for lower the mob 8% of their total health or more for the duration of the fight. Using 10K power, assuming you manage to stay at full power by the time you helped do your share of 1 million points of damage, well using 10K power to do 2% damage to their health, depleting your dps ability for the most part for the rest of the fight, makes no sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>I assume god's favours don't stack with it, as the assured AA critical hit doesn't right? (Course I feign total ignorance of what stacks with manaburn )</P><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote:<BR> <P>I am not saying that Manaburn is usefull when you are a hi level raid wizard but for leveling and doing quests its very usefull.</P> <P>I was able to solo bloodtalon and many other ^^^ heroics that i would normally never be able to solo becuase all I had to do is get them to half life then manburn them for the win.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you can get the mob to 50% you dont need mana burn to kill it.  and if you cant kill it with normal root/nuke from 50% to 0% you dont have enough mana to kill it with mana burn either.<BR>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fewson wrote:<BR> <DIV>Oh, and how much is 40K?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well in the later EoF raid zones such as the instance 24 man zone in Mistmore, when we went into it certain trash mobs have over 2 million hit points, and once or twice an encounter had two of them. 40k will drop one of them from 50% health to 48%....and that would be a total waste/inefficient use of power. As a principal DPS class you probably need to be responsible for lower the mob 8% of their total health or more for the duration of the fight. Using 10K power, assuming you manage to stay at full power by the time you helped do your share of 1 million points of damage, well using 10K power to do 2% damage to their health, depleting your dps ability for the most part for the rest of the fight, makes no sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>I assume god's favours don't stack with it, as the assured AA critical hit doesn't right? (Course I feign total ignorance of what stacks with manaburn )</P> <P>Message Edited by Fewson on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>okay so I finally found a use for manaburn but you have to burn a Sol ro Miracle to make it work, thus reducing mana burn's effectiveness to about 45-50 min (depending on jcap and recast reductions) for rading.  (and that you can only use it 2x a zone)</P> <P>What you would have to do on a named fight is this.</P> <P>Mana burn once MT has enough aggro to hold a 40-50k hit (9-10k raid buffed power) and manaburn, then vital conversion, and burn the sol ro miracle that gives you 10% power/health on hostile spell, (cast rending icicles) and viola you have enough power to freehand > ice nova, fusion, by the time your done you end up with 50% power (after 5 power hog spells) and about 90-110K damage in roughly 19 seconds, and 50% power to continue dps'ing for the rest of the fight.</P> <P>the problem comes in after that is how much longer the fight will last, if it continues on for more than 1.5 min will stretching out 50% power through clicky's and vital conversion lower your dps by the amount gained from manaburn?</P>

[Dejah]

<DIV>I have the Manaburn AA and I'm a raiding wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like it or not, Manaburn is the best DPS ability in the game, hands down.  No other ability can dish out damage as fast as Manaburn.  Given that it is the most powerful ability in the game, it has sever requirements so as to not upset the balance of the game.  It is a tool like none other in our spell book.  If you don't see the value in having this tool, then maybe it's not for you or your playstyle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It took me 21 aa points to get manaburn; a 20 point investment in the power line of abilities, and 1 point for manaburn itself.  I see both of them as tools that improve two opposing needs of mine: more DPS in really short fights, and more DPS in really long fights.  Manaburn obviously gives me rediculous DPS in really short fights, and great spike damage for when something needs to be burned fast.  The 20 points in the power line of abilities, specifically Enhance: Vital Conversion and Enhance: Anomalism, provide extra power for those really long fights. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if spending these 21 points towards manaburn lowers my DPS in an average fight, I find it worth it because I have a new tool that can make a difference when the need calls. </DIV>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok no0b... You want specific examples of it being totally useless?? Ask and you shall receive:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>nice start, your a quality person i can see.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 1: Solo mobs</DIV> <DIV>7k Power (bout average for a decently geared solo wizard)</DIV> <DIV>Manaburn - Mob is hit for about 4k (half his health). Ice Nova would have one shotted it, for ~400 power. You sucked up 800 power for that manaburn. Winner: Ice Nova</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>if you can kill a mob w/ your auto attack, you probably dont need manaburn, or even ice nova, kthx.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 2a: ^^^ single heroic (solo)</DIV> <DIV>7k Power</DIV> <DIV>Root, power converge, manaburn. Mob is at 50%. You hit for ~15k for 3k power. 7sec cast. Cat + FS + Ice Nova = 25k easy. Mob is either dead, or a BoL and Incapacitate will finish him off. Total power consumed = <1k. Winner: Ice Nova</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>and if your ice nova and fusion is down, because that is how you got him to 50%, then what?  or if he is a caster and nuking the hell out of you, then what?  Manaburn is probably most useful here, I can suddenly solo casters w/out a tree.  If you can't see this simple use, you have no hope.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 2b: ^^^ single heroic (group)</DIV> <DIV>8k power (being very generous)</DIV> <DIV>By the time you finish casting manaburn, mob is dead. Period.</DIV> <DIV>IF it isn't somehow, and you manage to take the last 3k hp from it with MB, you have expelled 600 power for that hit. BoL would have done it in half that. Winner: Any other spell in our spellbook</DIV> <DIV>Also, on above situation, your DPS now SUCKS [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. You hit one time for 3k. You could have Ice Nova'd on the pull, incapacitate, and BoL... done about 1500-2k DPS, and have plenty of power to spare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>again, i can barely get off ice nova in good groups, why would i need manaburn here?  and its a 5min recast, clearly not intended for every trash mob.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 3: Multi-mob heroic group:</DIV> <DIV>8k Power</DIV> <DIV>Only an idiot would blow a 7sec cast spell for 50% damage on one mob in such a group. All GOOD wizards out there know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Good wizards test stuff before they blindly claim it sucks, sucks, sucks, but anyway....  this isn't intended for trash mobs in groups... fast cast stuff like BoL is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 4: ^^^ Epic single</DIV> <DIV>8k Power</DIV> <DIV>Option 1: First of all, 40k is no where near even remotely close to half an epic's hit points. So, you hit it for 40k, and expel 8k power. Now you are doing nothing (and are possibly dead from aggro). In 8 secs, you can hit for 15-20k Ice Nova, and as high as 30k Fusion, for 1k power. You have done just as much, if not more, damage, and still have 7k power to continue nuking. Now which one is going to provide the highest DPS? This is a no brainer.</DIV> <DIV>Option 2: You hold MB till the end. Now, if you are doing your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] job, you MIGHT have as much as 1k power, by then (because you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well better have been nuking the whole fight). MB hits for 5k. A crit on BoL will easily do that, in less cast time, for much much less power. Ice Nova will do far more, in much less cast time, for much much less power. For 700 power, and about the same cast time, you can hit it with both, and do upwards of 20k.</DIV> <DIV>Disclaimer: All of the above raid scenario is assuming raid debuffs. You are in a raid, after all.</DIV> <DIV>Winner: All other nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>again, you make it sound like im choosing between Ice Nova/fusion and manaburn... in reality, manaburn is an ADDITIONAL attack.  I was getting virtually all the kill shots last night in labs once I got good at timing your Option 2.... it's [Removed for Content] awesome to drop AN EXTRA '40k clean up' nuke on every named mob... and that is with virtually no power left in a raid setting...   winner:  All other nukes + manaburn at the end</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MB is useless. It is a fun novelty, but now only in a raid (since that is the ONLY time you will get a 40k hit with it). It used to be a fun novelty to goof off with on solos and heroics. <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I hit for 40k on solo ^^^ mobs regularly.  I hit Lord V in labs for 44k last night w/ very little power left... it is quite the dps boost at the end of a named fight.</FONT></DIV>Now it is just a waste of 7.5 seconds of your casting order.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>If it is in your 'casting order', then you are using it wrong.  It is for cleaning up, not for cycling when ever it is up.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by putergod on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:05 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>and Illu, how could you possibly say this?</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote:<BR> <P>I am not saying that Manaburn is usefull when you are a hi level raid wizard but for leveling and doing quests its very usefull.</P> <P>I was able to solo bloodtalon and many other ^^^ heroics that i would normally never be able to solo becuase all I had to do is get them to half life then manburn them for the win.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you can get the mob to 50% you dont need mana burn to kill it.  and if you cant kill it with normal root/nuke from 50% to 0% you dont have enough mana to kill it with mana burn either.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff3300>maybe for warrior mobs that are rootable, but what about casters and warping mobs?  Are you telling me that there is no mob out there that you can get to 50% that you can't kill?  I beg to differ....  there are caster mobs out there that can kill us cloth wearers in a few nukes, but if you open w/ IN, InCap, Surgin, and BoL, you just might be able to manaburn ftw before he gets off those couple nukes that will kill you.</FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>What you have now done with the above post is agree to the merits of the fire line, but completely dodged the point of spending those 20 points required for manaburn somewhere else.  Now instead your claiming to dispute the mindless one liner posts from people about manaburn's useless ness.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I already explained my reasoning for needing the 20points in power, i go through mana like a mad man w/ str/agi aa's.  I didn't dodge, I just didn't want to repost the same thing.  And the dps from an EXTRA manaburn nuke is real, so there is a dps improvement.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>And Dejah (Dehah), thanks for your reply.  This thread is intended to give facts about our actual in game findings, which I've found to be very powerful in many settings.  Kill shots ftw!i!i!</FONT></P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>and Illu, how could you possibly say this?</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote:<BR> <P>I am not saying that Manaburn is usefull when you are a hi level raid wizard but for leveling and doing quests its very usefull.</P> <P>I was able to solo bloodtalon and many other ^^^ heroics that i would normally never be able to solo becuase all I had to do is get them to half life then manburn them for the win.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you can get the mob to 50% you dont need mana burn to kill it.  and if you cant kill it with normal root/nuke from 50% to 0% you dont have enough mana to kill it with mana burn either.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff3300>maybe for warrior mobs that are rootable, but what about casters and warping mobs?  Are you telling me that there is no mob out there that you can get to 50% that you can't kill?  I beg to differ....  there are caster mobs out there that can kill us cloth wearers in a few nukes, but if you open w/ IN, InCap, Surgin, and BoL, you just might be able to manaburn ftw before he gets off those couple nukes that will kill you.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and what do you then when the named mob is stun immune and wailing on you the whole time? you cant get it to 50% with ice nova and bol without taking massive damage, and then those 7 seconds you spend trying to get off manaburn can get interrupted, you can get stifled, stunned, feared, or killed in that time frame.  The premise here is wheres the rush? is it from 100% to 50% is it from 50% to 0%, you can manaburn a mob right after rooting it to 50%.</P> <P>If your whole point is to try and rush the mob down to 50% then manaburn, how much time are we talking about here? manaburn takes 7 long seconds to cast, ice nova takes 4 seconds, bol takes 3 seconds, incapacitate takes 2 seconds, re-rooting takes 2-8 seconds depending on root breakage.</P> <P>at best you have 4 seconds from ceace if it isn't resisted to cast ice nova, and even then freehand/ice nova only does a 10-25% dent in a mobs hp, then what? toss a bol at it for 5% more?  then what? --the answer is you need to buff up the according resists for the fight OR use line of sight tactics.  </P> <P> and if the mob is not stun immune surge every 4.8 seconds + a timed ice nova + a timed ceace + a timed incapaciate, and bol's are just as good at stoping a caster named in its tracks.</P> <P>what about EOF heroic caster mobs that chain stifle you and are stun immune, manaburn aint gonna save you there resists may help but even then you run the risk of one landing at the wrong time and you go poof.<BR></P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have the Manaburn AA and I'm a raiding wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like it or not, Manaburn is the best DPS ability in the game, hands down.  No other ability can dish out damage as fast as Manaburn.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>that is an incorrect statement.</P> <P>wrath of the burning price can deal 40-50k dmg in 3 seconds</P> <P>assasins can deal 30k dmg in 0.5 seconds (and then another 10-15k in the remaining 6 seconds of cast time of manaburn)</P> <P>freehand / catalyst / fusion can deal 30k dmg to 1 mob and 15-20K to 2 other mobs total up to 70k in 5 seconds.</P> <P>Also we can point to lifeburn, in that after using life burn necros still have full power to deal out additional dps, while a wizard is OOP<BR></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 PM</span>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok no0b... You want specific examples of it being totally useless?? Ask and you shall receive:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>nice start, your a quality person i can see.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>Pot meet kettle... In response to your degraded post to use trying to explain to you how useless it is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 1: Solo mobs</DIV> <DIV>7k Power (bout average for a decently geared solo wizard)</DIV> <DIV>Manaburn - Mob is hit for about 4k (half his health). Ice Nova would have one shotted it, for ~400 power. You sucked up 800 power for that manaburn. Winner: Ice Nova</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>if you can kill a mob w/ your auto attack, you probably dont need manaburn, or even ice nova, kthx.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>You wanted scenerios... I gave them. Don't like, then don't ask for it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 2a: ^^^ single heroic (solo)</DIV> <DIV>7k Power</DIV> <DIV>Root, power converge, manaburn. Mob is at 50%. You hit for ~15k for 3k power. 7sec cast. Cat + FS + Ice Nova = 25k easy. Mob is either dead, or a BoL and Incapacitate will finish him off. Total power consumed = <1k. Winner: Ice Nova</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>and if your ice nova and fusion is down, because that is how you got him to 50%, then what?  or if he is a caster and nuking the hell out of you, then what?  Manaburn is probably most useful here, I can suddenly solo casters w/out a tree.  If you can't see this simple use, you have no hope.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>Your power is low because you got him down to 50%... Now what is MB really going to do? Not jack.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 2b: ^^^ single heroic (group)</DIV> <DIV>8k power (being very generous)</DIV> <DIV>By the time you finish casting manaburn, mob is dead. Period.</DIV> <DIV>IF it isn't somehow, and you manage to take the last 3k hp from it with MB, you have expelled 600 power for that hit. BoL would have done it in half that. Winner: Any other spell in our spellbook</DIV> <DIV>Also, on above situation, your DPS now SUCKS [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. You hit one time for 3k. You could have Ice Nova'd on the pull, incapacitate, and BoL... done about 1500-2k DPS, and have plenty of power to spare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>again, i can barely get off ice nova in good groups, why would i need manaburn here?  and its a 5min recast, clearly not intended for every trash mob.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>Again, you want scenerios, and I gave them...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 3: Multi-mob heroic group:</DIV> <DIV>8k Power</DIV> <DIV>Only an idiot would blow a 7sec cast spell for 50% damage on one mob in such a group. All GOOD wizards out there know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Good wizards test stuff before they blindly claim it sucks, sucks, sucks, but anyway....  this isn't intended for trash mobs in groups... fast cast stuff like BoL is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>Redundant to respond. See above.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situation 4: ^^^ Epic single</DIV> <DIV>8k Power</DIV> <DIV>Option 1: First of all, 40k is no where near even remotely close to half an epic's hit points. So, you hit it for 40k, and expel 8k power. Now you are doing nothing (and are possibly dead from aggro). In 8 secs, you can hit for 15-20k Ice Nova, and as high as 30k Fusion, for 1k power. You have done just as much, if not more, damage, and still have 7k power to continue nuking. Now which one is going to provide the highest DPS? This is a no brainer.</DIV> <DIV>Option 2: You hold MB till the end. Now, if you are doing your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] job, you MIGHT have as much as 1k power, by then (because you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well better have been nuking the whole fight). MB hits for 5k. A crit on BoL will easily do that, in less cast time, for much much less power. Ice Nova will do far more, in much less cast time, for much much less power. For 700 power, and about the same cast time, you can hit it with both, and do upwards of 20k.</DIV> <DIV>Disclaimer: All of the above raid scenario is assuming raid debuffs. You are in a raid, after all.</DIV> <DIV>Winner: All other nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>again, you make it sound like im choosing between Ice Nova/fusion and manaburn... in reality, manaburn is an ADDITIONAL attack.  I was getting virtually all the kill shots last night in labs once I got good at timing your Option 2.... it's [Removed for Content] awesome to drop AN EXTRA '40k clean up' nuke on every named mob... and that is with virtually no power left in a raid setting...   winner:  All other nukes + manaburn at the end</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>Manaburn at the end? With what? 1k power left? So you can hit for 5k? If you're hitting for 40k, then you aren't nuking because you'd have full power. If you was wasting time power converting instead of burning the mob you aren't DPSing. How many times does this have to be explained?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MB is useless. It is a fun novelty, but now only in a raid (since that is the ONLY time you will get a 40k hit with it). It used to be a fun novelty to goof off with on solos and heroics. <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I hit for 40k on solo ^^^ mobs regularly.  I hit Lord V in labs for 44k last night w/ very little power left... it is quite the dps boost at the end of a named fight.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>Very little power left? You got a 20k power pool or something? Flag raised....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV>Now it is just a waste of 7.5 seconds of your casting order.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>If it is in your 'casting order', then you are using it wrong.  It is for cleaning up, not for cycling when ever it is up.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by putergod on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:05 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>and Illu, how could you possibly say this?</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote:<BR> <P>I am not saying that Manaburn is usefull when you are a hi level raid wizard but for leveling and doing quests its very usefull.</P> <P>I was able to solo bloodtalon and many other ^^^ heroics that i would normally never be able to solo becuase all I had to do is get them to half life then manburn them for the win.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you can get the mob to 50% you dont need mana burn to kill it.  and if you cant kill it with normal root/nuke from 50% to 0% you dont have enough mana to kill it with mana burn either.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff3300>maybe for warrior mobs that are rootable, but what about casters and warping mobs?  Are you telling me that there is no mob out there that you can get to 50% that you can't kill?  I beg to differ....  there are caster mobs out there that can kill us cloth wearers in a few nukes, but if you open w/ IN, InCap, Surgin, and BoL, you just might be able to manaburn ftw before he gets off those couple nukes that will kill you.</FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>What you have now done with the above post is agree to the merits of the fire line, but completely dodged the point of spending those 20 points required for manaburn somewhere else.  Now instead your claiming to dispute the mindless one liner posts from people about manaburn's useless ness.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I already explained my reasoning for needing the 20points in power, i go through mana like a mad man w/ str/agi aa's.  I didn't dodge, I just didn't want to repost the same thing.  And the dps from an EXTRA manaburn nuke is real, so there is a dps improvement.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>And Dejah (Dehah), thanks for your reply.  This thread is intended to give facts about our actual in game findings, which I've found to be very powerful in many settings.  Kill shots ftw!i!i!</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Kill shots mean jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you aren't contributing throughout the fight. The only way to pull off a 40k MB at the end of the fight is to sit with your thumb up your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to conserve power since MB REQUIRES 1 point of power for every 5 points of damage it deals. If it was 5 points per max power pool, regardless of current power, but expends all current power, then, and only then, would your arguments hold ANY water (and I would actually get it then). But that isn't the case.<BR>

[Zyphius]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>ItsMrHarris2u wrote:</P> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff3300>maybe for warrior mobs that are rootable, but what about casters and warping mobs?  Are you telling me that there is no mob out there that you can get to 50% that you can't kill?  I beg to differ....  there are caster mobs out there that can kill us cloth wearers in a few nukes, but if you open w/ IN, InCap, Surgin, and BoL, you just might be able to manaburn ftw before he gets off those couple nukes that will kill you.</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and what do you then when the named mob is stun immune and wailing on you the whole time? you cant get it to 50% with ice nova and bol without taking massive damage, and then those 7 seconds you spend trying to get off manaburn can get interrupted, you can get stifled, stunned, feared, or killed in that time frame.  The premise here is wheres the rush? is it from 100% to 50% is it from 50% to 0%, you can manaburn a mob right after rooting it to 50%.</P> <P>If your whole point is to try and rush the mob down to 50% then manaburn, how much time are we talking about here? manaburn takes 7 long seconds to cast, ice nova takes 4 seconds, bol takes 3 seconds, incapacitate takes 2 seconds, re-rooting takes 2-8 seconds depending on root breakage.</P> <P>at best you have 4 seconds from ceace if it isn't resisted to cast ice nova, and even then freehand/ice nova only does a 10-25% dent in a mobs hp, then what? toss a bol at it for 5% more?  then what? --the answer is you need to buff up the according resists for the fight OR use line of sight tactics. </P> <P> and if the mob is not stun immune surge every 4.8 seconds + a timed ice nova + a timed ceace + a timed incapaciate, and bol's are just as good at stoping a caster named in its tracks.</P> <P>what about EOF heroic caster mobs that chain stifle you and are stun immune, manaburn aint gonna save you there resists may help but even then you run the risk of one landing at the wrong time and you go poof.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And don't forget that the less power you have, the less of a hit MB will do. So all that time taking it to 50%, now you are lower on power, and MB isn't hitting for 40k. But Ice Nova + Fusion will.</DIV><p>Message Edited by putergod on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

[Fews]

<DIV>"I hit Lord V in labs for 44k last night w/ very little power left... it is quite the dps boost at the end of a named fight."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will state I haven't tried "Manaburn" yet. So I cannot yet argue game experience. From my read of description it is 5 points per power used.  If that is true, how could you use it to hit for 44K if you had very little power left before using it? Or did you mean something different. If you had power, the result would be understandable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most namers in which I have a lot of power left when they die are namers we would consider to be trivial for us, or ones where you don't want to do a lot of dps. Ok. maybe one or two of those mobs, when the mob is almost dead I could dump my power to speed the end by of the encounter by 2 seconds(20K or so raids DPS when when people go from keep it steady to burn it down), and as I stated before it may be of use for certain finishing blows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ice Nova I have about a 28.8 sec recast (Cheldrek ring, etc). So I can cast it quite often. In a raid (I am not STR AA) I do 16-23K with ice nova with  900 int(ok. 897 int), not counting procs etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will also have to state that I am coming from my point of view. Fully fabled with lots of cheldrek loot(The robe, the dagger), lots of procing gear(Necklace from clockwork raid mob, ring of superiority, thule wrist item, etc etc), 42 flowingthought, troub in group, pantrilla fabled secondary in bag for an extra 1K power if needed, Master 1 shards and hearts, fully mastered, and approaching 10K power). So my lack of need for more power sources may not be the same as someone elses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I am known to experiment, right now I would consider manaburn useless for my playstyle and raids, but at some point I will respec to verify, as I have done when I consider different AA lines in the past.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 PM</span>

[Fews]

<DIV>Now that I think of it, even for finishing off a mob(without a using a gods favour), it doesn't do that much</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do over 2KDPS.(Higher burst) on a single target without MB.</DIV> <DIV>So I could cast in 7 secs....</DIV> <DIV>Ice Nova 22K hit not counting procs</DIV> <DIV>Ball of Lava 6K hit not counting proc.</DIV> <DIV>Something else for about 1K.</DIV> <DIV>For a total of 29K</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or I can spend 21 AA points and</DIV> <DIV>If I somehow i did have full power[unlikely]:</DIV> <DIV>then MB doing 42K</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a difference of 13K...and 21 AA</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone needs power, and they want to go down the power line great.</DIV> <DIV>But from non-emperical look it doesn't look useful to go down the power line in order to get MB.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can say that there are a few trash raid mobs that it may make one look hot to have manaburn for. If your tank  or the zone has nice gaps between those encounters then it may be fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[HippyKnight]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have the Manaburn AA and I'm a raiding wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like it or not, Manaburn is the best DPS ability in the game, hands down.  No other ability can dish out damage as fast as Manaburn.  Given that it is the most powerful ability in the game, it has sever requirements so as to not upset the balance of the game.  It is a tool like none other in our spell book.  If you don't see the value in having this tool, then maybe it's not for you or your playstyle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Was speaking to a rather fabled out / covered in adornments necro on wed after inspecting his stuff.. he had sta hex dolls + 400hp adornments etc etc .. anyways he had about 580 int and about 560 sta.. total hitpoints was just under 7k. Anyways turns out he can get over 10k hp from buffs etc for a nice 50k+ lifeburn. Ok its a 50k dot over 10 secs but the point is there are alot more hp buffs about than (stacking) power buffs .. so as far as a single spell goes i'd say lifeburn is the best dps ability in the game.. (expect to see more necros spec'ing for +hp in the future). Also it doesnt come with the same requirements and costs no power (not that necros ever have to worry about power... lich/archlich m1 = 130-150 flowing thought). They can heal themselves back up with lifetaps / their mage pets group heal / healer group heal and if it draws aggro they just FD ... just thought you'd like to know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=20391" target=_blank><SPAN>ItsMrHarris2u</SPAN></A> wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I hit for 40k on solo ^^^ mobs regularly.  I hit Lord V in labs for 44k last night w/ very little power left... it is quite the dps boost at the end of a named fight.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno havent even tried manaburn.. but how can you hit for 44k with very little power left? 44k would take 8.8k power wouldnt it? has something changed? does it do 5x your max power pool and drain whatever you have left? .. now that manaburn might be worth it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also '<FONT color=#ff3300>I hit for 40k on solo ^^^ mobs regularly</FONT> '... double huh? .. it is capped at 50% of max hp .. your average ^^^ doesnt have 80k hp..<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>edited: oops not putergod who wrote that .. stoopid quoting thing =) .. soz putergod...<BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by HippyKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:24 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by HippyKnight on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HippyKnight wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=20391" target=_blank><SPAN>ItsMrHarris2u</SPAN></A> wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I hit for 40k on solo ^^^ mobs regularly.  I hit Lord V in labs for 44k last night w/ very little power left... it is quite the dps boost at the end of a named fight.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno havent even tried manaburn.. but how can you hit for 44k with very little power left? 44k would take 8.8k power wouldnt it? has something changed? does it do 5x your max power pool and drain whatever you have left? .. now that manaburn might be worth it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also '<FONT color=#ff3300>I hit for 40k on solo ^^^ mobs regularly</FONT> '... double huh? .. it is capped at 50% of max hp .. your average ^^^ doesnt have 80k hp..<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>edited: oops not putergod who wrote that .. stoopid quoting thing =) .. soz putergod...<BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by HippyKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:24 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by HippyKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:24 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As for Lord V eating my 44k kill shot w/ about 20-30% mana left... it's done the same way you crit for 30k w/ fusion... raid debuffs.  The 5-to-1 damage ratio is the same as the raw damage listing on any spell... it is dependant on level and resists.  If you nuke a grey mob w/ low resists, you hit harder then if you nuke an orange mob w/ high resists.  The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'n in our raid keeps swearing that he saw a parse w/ a wizzie manaburn over 100k, I can't personally verify that... yet....</P> <P>and actually, named ^^^ solo mobs do have more then 80k hps... even some of the grey ones.  Captain Trueshot (the guy for bow heritage) turned into some poon, who had werewolves attack me last night... that named ate a 40k manaburn when he was at 50% health (and he warps on you, so I would have never killed him w/out manaburn).  That [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] named mob in Klak'Anon before the king was casting some aoe stiffle crap on me other night (he's grey) and i'd have never gotten him down w/out manaburn... he ate a 40k also.. .at 50% as a grey mob...<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>and Illu, how could you possibly say this?</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote:<BR> <P>I am not saying that Manaburn is usefull when you are a hi level raid wizard but for leveling and doing quests its very usefull.</P> <P>I was able to solo bloodtalon and many other ^^^ heroics that i would normally never be able to solo becuase all I had to do is get them to half life then manburn them for the win.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you can get the mob to 50% you dont need mana burn to kill it.  and if you cant kill it with normal root/nuke from 50% to 0% you dont have enough mana to kill it with mana burn either.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff3300>maybe for warrior mobs that are rootable, but what about casters and warping mobs?  Are you telling me that there is no mob out there that you can get to 50% that you can't kill?  I beg to differ....  there are caster mobs out there that can kill us cloth wearers in a few nukes, but if you open w/ IN, InCap, Surgin, and BoL, you just might be able to manaburn ftw before he gets off those couple nukes that will kill you.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and what do you then when the named mob is stun immune and wailing on you the whole time? you cant get it to 50% with ice nova and bol without taking massive damage, and then those 7 seconds you spend trying to get off manaburn can get interrupted, you can get stifled, stunned, feared, or killed in that time frame.  The premise here is wheres the rush? is it from 100% to 50% is it from 50% to 0%, you can manaburn a mob right after rooting it to 50%.</P> <P>If your whole point is to try and rush the mob down to 50% then manaburn, how much time are we talking about here? manaburn takes 7 long seconds to cast, ice nova takes 4 seconds, bol takes 3 seconds, incapacitate takes 2 seconds, re-rooting takes 2-8 seconds depending on root breakage.</P> <P>at best you have 4 seconds from ceace if it isn't resisted to cast ice nova, and even then freehand/ice nova only does a 10-25% dent in a mobs hp, then what? toss a bol at it for 5% more?  then what? --the answer is you need to buff up the according resists for the fight OR use line of sight tactics. </P> <P> and if the mob is not stun immune surge every 4.8 seconds + a timed ice nova + a timed ceace + a timed incapaciate, and bol's are just as good at stoping a caster named in its tracks.</P> <P>what about EOF heroic caster mobs that chain stifle you and are stun immune, manaburn aint gonna save you there resists may help but even then you run the risk of one landing at the wrong time and you go poof.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you are really reaching here...  most of this doesn't even make sense.  If the mob is stun immune, you are in trouble.. so what?  I gaurentee you are better off w/ manaburn then w/out in either case.  The idea IS to rush the mob to 50%, then kill shot it before it kill shots you... you can quote cast timers and theory all you want, us who are actually using the ability find it is invaluable here.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>And don't forget that the less power you have, the less of a hit MB will do. So all that time taking it to 50%, now you are lower on power, and MB isn't hitting for 40k. But Ice Nova + Fusion will.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by putergod on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:43 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>if Ice Nova and Fusion were up, I'd hit them, then manaburn... again and again people are making it sound like we are trading IN and Fusion for manaburn... but the reality is that manaburn is EXTRA.  So go ahead and do your 30k fusion crit, then hit ice nova... THEN manaburn... not exchanging dps, adding it.  In a raid w/ full debuffs on a mob, you need very, very little power to do lots of damage.</P> <P>What I have yet to see is someone who actually has Manaburn trained <U>right now</U> and doesn't like it.  Only those who tried it in beta band camp or went down fire/ice seem to think it sucks, sucks, sucks.... go figure, i was actually one of them until I trained it.... /shrug</P>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fewson wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now that I think of it, even for finishing off a mob(without a using a gods favour), it doesn't do that much</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do over 2KDPS.(Higher burst) on a single target without MB.</DIV> <DIV>So I could cast in 7 secs....</DIV> <DIV>Ice Nova 22K hit not counting procs</DIV> <DIV>Ball of Lava 6K hit not counting proc.</DIV> <DIV>Something else for about 1K.</DIV> <DIV>For a total of 29K</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or I can spend 21 AA points and</DIV> <DIV>If I somehow i did have full power[unlikely]:</DIV> <DIV>then MB doing 42K</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a difference of 13K...and 21 AA</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone needs power, and they want to go down the power line great.</DIV> <DIV>But from non-emperical look it doesn't look useful to go down the power line in order to get MB.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can say that there are a few trash raid mobs that it may make one look hot to have manaburn for. If your tank  or the zone has nice gaps between those encounters then it may be fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Fewson on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:05 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>what if you could do this...</FONT></P> <DIV>I do over 2KDPS.(Higher burst) on a single target without MB.</DIV> <DIV>So I could cast in 7 secs....</DIV> <DIV>Ice Nova 22K hit not counting procs</DIV> <DIV>Ball of Lava 6K hit not counting proc.</DIV> <DIV>Something else for about 1K.</DIV> <DIV>For a total of 29K</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>then do this, not seperately, but additionally...</FONT><BR></P> <DIV>Or I can spend 21 AA points and</DIV> <DIV>If I somehow i did have full power[unlikely]:</DIV> <DIV>then MB doing 42K</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>We're doing DT or HoS tonight, I'll post a screenie tomorrow of my power before manaburn (1/3rd to 1/4th), and the damage done (~40k, and it will be a kill shot, trust me).</FONT></DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HippyKnight wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=20391" target=_blank><SPAN>ItsMrHarris2u</SPAN></A> wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I hit for 40k on solo ^^^ mobs regularly.  I hit Lord V in labs for 44k last night w/ very little power left... it is quite the dps boost at the end of a named fight.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno havent even tried manaburn.. but how can you hit for 44k with very little power left? 44k would take 8.8k power wouldnt it? has something changed? does it do 5x your max power pool and drain whatever you have left? .. now that manaburn might be worth it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also '<FONT color=#ff3300>I hit for 40k on solo ^^^ mobs regularly</FONT> '... double huh? .. it is capped at 50% of max hp .. your average ^^^ doesnt have 80k hp..<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>edited: oops not putergod who wrote that .. stoopid quoting thing =) .. soz putergod...<BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by HippyKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:24 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by HippyKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:24 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As for Lord V eating my 44k kill shot w/ about 20-30% mana left... it's done the same way you crit for 30k w/ fusion... raid debuffs.  The 5-to-1 damage ratio is the same as the raw damage listing on any spell... it is dependant on level and resists.  If you nuke a grey mob w/ low resists, you hit harder then if you nuke an orange mob w/ high resists.  The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'n in our raid keeps swearing that he saw a parse w/ a wizzie manaburn over 100k, I can't personally verify that... yet....</P> <P>and actually, named ^^^ solo mobs do have more then 80k hps... even some of the grey ones.  Captain Trueshot (the guy for bow heritage) turned into some poon, who had werewolves attack me last night... that named ate a 40k manaburn when he was at 50% health (and he warps on you, so I would have never killed him w/out manaburn).  That [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] named mob in Klak'Anon before the king was casting some aoe stiffle crap on me other night (he's grey) and i'd have never gotten him down w/out manaburn... he ate a 40k also.. .at 50% as a grey mob...<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>and Illu, how could you possibly say this?</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote:<BR> <P>I am not saying that Manaburn is usefull when you are a hi level raid wizard but for leveling and doing quests its very usefull.</P> <P>I was able to solo bloodtalon and many other ^^^ heroics that i would normally never be able to solo becuase all I had to do is get them to half life then manburn them for the win.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you can get the mob to 50% you dont need mana burn to kill it.  and if you cant kill it with normal root/nuke from 50% to 0% you dont have enough mana to kill it with mana burn either.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff3300>maybe for warrior mobs that are rootable, but what about casters and warping mobs?  Are you telling me that there is no mob out there that you can get to 50% that you can't kill?  I beg to differ....  there are caster mobs out there that can kill us cloth wearers in a few nukes, but if you open w/ IN, InCap, Surgin, and BoL, you just might be able to manaburn ftw before he gets off those couple nukes that will kill you.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and what do you then when the named mob is stun immune and wailing on you the whole time? you cant get it to 50% with ice nova and bol without taking massive damage, and then those 7 seconds you spend trying to get off manaburn can get interrupted, you can get stifled, stunned, feared, or killed in that time frame.  The premise here is wheres the rush? is it from 100% to 50% is it from 50% to 0%, you can manaburn a mob right after rooting it to 50%.</P> <P>If your whole point is to try and rush the mob down to 50% then manaburn, how much time are we talking about here? manaburn takes 7 long seconds to cast, ice nova takes 4 seconds, bol takes 3 seconds, incapacitate takes 2 seconds, re-rooting takes 2-8 seconds depending on root breakage.</P> <P>at best you have 4 seconds from ceace if it isn't resisted to cast ice nova, and even then freehand/ice nova only does a 10-25% dent in a mobs hp, then what? toss a bol at it for 5% more?  then what? --the answer is you need to buff up the according resists for the fight OR use line of sight tactics. </P> <P> and if the mob is not stun immune surge every 4.8 seconds + a timed ice nova + a timed ceace + a timed incapaciate, and bol's are just as good at stoping a caster named in its tracks.</P> <P>what about EOF heroic caster mobs that chain stifle you and are stun immune, manaburn aint gonna save you there resists may help but even then you run the risk of one landing at the wrong time and you go poof.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>you are really reaching here...  most of this doesn't even make sense.  If the mob is stun immune, you are in trouble.. so what?  I gaurentee you are better off w/ manaburn then w/out in either case.  The idea IS to rush the mob to 50%, then kill shot it before it kill shots you... you can quote cast timers and theory all you want, us who are actually using the ability find it is invaluable here.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>thats probably because you never soloed any stun immune caster mobs before, manaburn wont save you on them, its not the holy grail that you and the supporters are making it out to be.</P> <P>I have and I can tell you sticking my nose out behind a rock for 7 seconds (ceace only lasts for 4) will get me creamed and whipped up into fish food quicker than I can kill the yellow named heroic, and on a heroic that chain casts a stifle, staying out in the open for longer than your own stilfe lasts is just plain deadly if not suicidal.</P> <P>Theres a reason why I'm quoting cast timers and using specific examples because they are tactics that you MUST use if you ever intend on soloing things you weren't meant to be.  Manaburn isn't the EASY button in these situations, and never will be, tactics and efficient use of potions/spell combinations wins out.</P> <P>I'm not making this stuff up in my head I used to be one of those wizard farmers running around every zone killing crap [Removed for Content] people off.  its how I got most of my master spells and a few pieces of gear.  <BR> </P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 PM</span>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>thats probably because you never soloed any stun immune caster mobs before, manaburn wont save you on them, its not the holy grail that you and the supporters are making it out to be.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>we said it is an invaluable resource, not a holy grail or an easy button.  My dad can beat up your dad, does that make manaburn totally useless and the ultimate suck?</FONT></P> <P>I have and I can tell you sticking my nose out behind a rock for 7 seconds (ceace only lasts for 4) will get me creamed and whipped up into fish food quicker than I can kill the yellow named heroic, and on a heroic that chain casts a stifle, staying out in the open for longer than your own stilfe lasts is just plain deadly if not suicidal.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>/shrug... and this has what to do w/ manaburn?  So what if there is a yellow mob that you can't stand in front of while you cast manaburn... does that make choosing fire or ice instead justified?  I have personally found numberous solo mobs that i can now kill, that I couldn't before.</FONT></P> <P>Theres a reason why I'm quoting cast timers and using specific examples because they are tactics that you MUST use if you ever intend on soloing things you weren't meant to be.  Manaburn isn't the EASY button in these situations, and never will be, tactics and efficient use of potions/spell combinations wins out.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>We couldn't agree more on this one...  tatics are 1st... knowing when and how to use your manaburn is everything... no, it's not an easy button.</FONT></P> <P>I'm not making this stuff up in my head I used to be one of those wizard farmers running around every zone killing crap [Removed for Content] people off.  its how I got most of my master spells and a few pieces of gear. <BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I'm still farmer john, you should train manaburn and come back to the farm!</FONT> </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:39 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm done posting w/ this one... I want to apologize to anyone I offended while trying to talk facts and tactics... something about these forums that always turns every conversation into a flame fest.  The important thing is that some of us are finding very significant uses for manaburn, and I have yet to see a single post from someone who has it trained today and thinks it is underpowered.</P>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I'm done posting w/ this one... I want to apologize to anyone I offended while trying to talk facts and tactics... something about these forums that always turns every conversation into a flame fest.  The important thing is that some of us are finding very significant uses for manaburn, and <FONT color=#ff0000>I have yet to see a single post from someone who has it trained today and thinks it is underpowered.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Q. Was the game mechanics somehow different in beta than it is now?</P> <P>A. Ummm... No</P> <P>Q. Was MB changed after beta to something more useful?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did the testers (Illu, me, and others) spec to it and test it out, hoping to find it somewhat useful?</P> <P>A. Yes</P> <P>Q. Did said testers decide not to test the content we were going to be affected most by so you could come here and act like we haven't?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did said testers find MB even REMOTELY useful?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did said testers feedback the hell out of it, after extensive testing in all situations?</P> <P>A. Yes</P> <P>Q. Are said testers happy with the fact it was left in such a useless state?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did the fact that it hasn't changed since beta somehow miraculous change the game mechanics to morph around MB so that it would actually be useful so people like you can say "you haven't tried it" when we indeed have?</P> <P>A. Ummmm... No</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I'm done posting w/ this one... I want to apologize to anyone I offended while trying to talk facts and tactics... something about these forums that always turns every conversation into a flame fest.  The important thing is that some of us are finding very significant uses for manaburn, and <FONT color=#ff0000>I have yet to see a single post from someone who has it trained today and thinks it is underpowered.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Q. Was the game mechanics somehow different in beta than it is now?</P> <P>A. Ummm... No</P> <P>Q. Was MB changed after beta to something more useful?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did the testers (Illu, me, and others) spec to it and test it out, hoping to find it somewhat useful?</P> <P>A. Yes</P> <P>Q. Did said testers decide not to test the content we were going to be affected most by so you could come here and act like we haven't?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did said testers find MB even REMOTELY useful?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did said testers feedback the hell out of it, after extensive testing in all situations?</P> <P>A. Yes</P> <P>Q. Are said testers happy with the fact it was left in such a useless state?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did the fact that it hasn't changed since beta somehow miraculous change the game mechanics to morph around MB so that it would actually be useful so people like you can say "you haven't tried it" when we indeed have?</P> <P>A. Ummmm... No</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol it doesn't get any simpler than that.

[electricninjasex]

If manaburn had a viable damage-to-power ratio (maybe 10 or so?) with the given restrictions on it, I would agree with everyone who is defending it.  But it doesn't, and so I don't.<div></div>

[Dejah]

<P>Since people here seem to love to compare undebuffed Manaburn values with debuffed damage values of other spells, here are some numbers for you.  All of these Manaburns were performed at the very end of the fight, within the last 10% and last 10 seconds of the mobs life.  More often than not a power proc would go off and so I would have power to cast another spell but I wouldn't have the time to get the next spell off anyway.  Unfortunately there isn't an easy way for me to extract the encounter length in seconds from the parse, so you're just going to have to take these numbers for what they are worth.</P> <P>44744<BR>56393<BR>58661<BR>38842<BR>25832<BR>52917<BR>56168<BR>22792<BR>42266<BR>22804<BR>55745<BR>43711<BR>31020<BR>61562<BR>13247<BR>67854<BR>64338<BR>61382<BR>58985</P> <P>Once again, I was not full power for any of these Manaburns.  Some Manaburns were on short fights, some were on longer fights.  Sometimes the raid mobs were debuffed a bit, and sometimes they were debuffed a lot.</P> <P>Taking a look at the leaderboards, it looks like my new highest magical hit is now 63,440.  Surprising to me considering I'm only about ~8.3k power raid buffed (yeah, I still haven't gotten the +power adornments yet) and I've never once Manaburned at full power.</P>

[Tanit]

<div></div>I'd rather pick something that always helps me during the whole fight, not just at the end to get some spike damage for the parse.<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <P>Since people here seem to love to compare undebuffed Manaburn values with debuffed damage values of other spells, here are some numbers for you.  All of these Manaburns were performed at the very end of the fight, within the last 10% and last 10 seconds of the mobs life.  More often than not a power proc would go off and so I would have power to cast another spell but I wouldn't have the time to get the next spell off anyway.  Unfortunately there isn't an easy way for me to extract the encounter length in seconds from the parse, so you're just going to have to take these numbers for what they are worth.</P> <P>44744<BR>56393<BR>58661<BR>38842<BR>25832<BR>52917<BR>56168<BR>22792<BR>42266<BR>22804<BR>55745<BR>43711<BR>31020<BR>61562<BR>13247<BR>67854<BR>64338<BR>61382<BR>58985</P> <P>Once again, I was not full power for any of these Manaburns.  Some Manaburns were on short fights, some were on longer fights.  Sometimes the raid mobs were debuffed a bit, and sometimes they were debuffed a lot.</P> <P>Taking a look at the leaderboards, it looks like my new highest magical hit is now 63,440.  Surprising to me considering I'm only about ~8.3k power raid buffed (yeah, I still haven't gotten the +power adornments yet) and I've never once Manaburned at full power.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>those #'s look promising dehah, can you post the total damage you dealt for each of the listed mana burns, and possibly the encounter durations?  that would go a long way in confirming your findings.

[electricninjasex]

<div></div><div>Before we look too deep into that list just yet, it would avail those of us who aren't spec'd for manaburn (yet?) to begin keeping track of how much power we have at the end of our named fights.<blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote: <p>Since people here seem to love to compare undebuffed Manaburn values with debuffed damage values of other spells, here are some numbers for you.</p><hr></blockquote>Guilty as charged.<blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote:<p>Once again, I was not full power for any of these Manaburns.  Some Manaburns were on short fights, some were on longer fights.  Sometimes the raid mobs were debuffed a bit, and sometimes they were debuffed a lot.</p> <p>Taking a look at the leaderboards, it looks like my new highest magical hit is now 63,440.  Surprising to me considering I'm only about ~8.3k power raid buffed (yeah, I still haven't gotten the +power adornments yet) and I've never once Manaburned at full power.</p><hr></blockquote>We need to know the context of the situation.  You say you never manaburned at full power, but you didn't say what power you *did* manaburn on, or what specific mob you were fighting.  Stellar performance against a trash mob or weak named isn't going to give us the most reliable insight when we have mobs like Matron on our plate.Now you may say, no, it's a tool not a panacea.  But does it mitigate those problem areas where we'd desire it in its best form?</div><p>Message Edited by electricninjasex on <span class=date_text>12-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:57 AM</span>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote: <DIV><BR>We need to know the context of the situation.  You say you never manaburned at full power, <FONT color=#ff0000>but you didn't say what power you *did* manaburn on,</FONT> or what specific mob you were fighting.  Stellar performance against a trash mob or weak named isn't going to give us the most reliable insight when we have mobs like Matron on our plate.<BR><BR>Now you may say, no, it's a tool not a panacea.  But does it mitigate those problem areas where we'd desire it in its best form?<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by electricninjasex on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:57 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>QFE.</P> <P>This is the most important aspect of your entire post (to me anyway) Dejah.</P> <P>Oh... And I thouroughly tested MB with my debuffs... and the damage never changed. It was a flat rate of 5xPower, unmitigatable up or down.</P>

[Tanit]

<blockquote><hr>putergod wrote:<p>Oh... And I thouroughly tested MB with my debuffs... and the damage never changed. It was a flat rate of 5xPower, unmitigatable up or down.</p><hr></blockquote>Debuffs do change the damage it does. When raid debuffed i could see a big increase in damage during beta.<div></div>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<P>ok, i promised a screenie... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] me for not getting the killshot and a mana pic, but here is a parse example.</P> <P><IMG src="http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harris/parse1.JPG"></P> <P>Ok, so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'n's have stupid dps, especially on these fast fights, so ignore the middle two poons.  I'm the wizzie on top, the wizzie below me had pretty much identical dps right up till the last 7 seconds...</P> <P>This was about 1/3rd power remaining, can't exactly recall and the screenie hit when manaburn had already landed, so i failed there... but i was clearly not at full mana, or how would i have done 60k+ w/out the manaburn.</P> <P>Anyway... what Debah and I have been saying and showing are facts, what most others keep posting are opinions and theories.  I'm still willing to bet that most of you will have this ability trained before long.</P>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanith_ wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote: <P>Oh... And I thouroughly tested MB with my debuffs... and the damage never changed. It was a flat rate of 5xPower, unmitigatable up or down.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Debuffs do change the damage it does. When raid debuffed i could see a big increase in damage during beta.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>When I tested it on beta, the hex doll never changed it. It always did 35k with 7k power. Maybe there was a last minute change that I didn't get a chance to witness, but it ALWAYS did exactly 5xpower when I used it. I even kept a calculator pulled up to do the math, hoping debuffs effected it, and it never did.

[Zyphius]

<DIV>Also, I want to see exact power numbers used for each hit, verbatim. If I can see PROOF that on low power, it still hits for 30k+, then I will shut up. Currently all I still see is damage numbers and CLAIMS of power. I need proof that disputes my beta findings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and if you still have 1/3 power on an 8k power pool at the end of a named, you aren't doing the dps you should be throughout the fight. The reason Illu, others and I (only when I have really good hate reduction, which is only part of the time) tend to always be at or near the top of the parse, is because we don't hold back, ever. We burn the hell out of our power doing that most damage we possibly can. At the end of a named, we are, pretty much, OOP. You show me a MB, with 1k (maximum) power left, and hit for those numbers, I will shut up, and train the ability, and no longer curse SoE for such a useless ability that shames the word "Manaburn". And yes, only named's apply. I always top the parse on trash with IN and Fusion (the other classes that have the ability to shame our dps hold out for nameds).</DIV>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

How about you pay the 1cp to respec your wizard tree and test it yourself.  I believe we've already done enough of the work for you.  Test it, bring your findings here, then complain/praise it.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>Also, I want to see exact power numbers used for each hit, verbatim. If I can see PROOF that on low power, it still hits for 30k+, then I will shut up. Currently all I still see is damage numbers and CLAIMS of power. I need proof that disputes my beta findings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and if you still have 1/3 power on an 8k power pool at the end of a named, you aren't doing the dps you should be throughout the fight. The reason Illu, others and I (only when I have really good hate reduction, which is only part of the time) tend to always be at or near the top of the parse, is because we don't hold back, ever. We burn the hell out of our power doing that most damage we possibly can. At the end of a named, we are, pretty much, OOP. You show me a MB, with 1k (maximum) power left, and hit for those numbers, I will shut up, and train the ability, and no longer curse SoE for such a useless ability that shames the word "Manaburn". And yes, only named's apply. I always top the parse on trash with IN and Fusion (the other classes that have the ability to shame our dps hold out for nameds).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <P>ok, i promised a screenie... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] me for not getting the killshot and a mana pic, but here is a parse example.</P> <P><IMG src="http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harris/parse1.JPG"></P> <P>Ok, so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'n's have stupid dps, especially on these fast fights, so ignore the middle two poons.  I'm the wizzie on top, the wizzie below me had pretty much identical dps right up till the last 7 seconds...</P> <P>This was about 1/3rd power remaining, can't exactly recall and the screenie hit when manaburn had already landed, so i failed there... but i was clearly not at full mana, or how would i have done 60k+ w/out the manaburn.</P> <P>Anyway... what Debah and I have been saying and showing are facts, what most others keep posting are opinions and theories.  I'm still willing to bet that most of you will have this ability trained before long.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>than you for posting this info it gives some insite to your point of view.</P> <P>Now when I examine that and read your explenation it doesn't add up, so I need a few more specifics. </P> <P>I've never (and i mean never) burned through 2/3 of my power in 30 seconds of fighting.  So we have to assume then that this was a trash mob, most likely solo trash mob, and your guild was chain pulling to make you at 1/3 of your power at the end of the 30s when you hit manaburn.</P> <P>So assuming those variables, what was your parse for the NEXT fight?</P>

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote: <DIV><BR>We need to know the context of the situation.  You say you never manaburned at full power, <FONT color=#ff0000>but you didn't say what power you *did* manaburn on,</FONT> or what specific mob you were fighting.  Stellar performance against a trash mob or weak named isn't going to give us the most reliable insight when we have mobs like Matron on our plate.<BR><BR>Now you may say, no, it's a tool not a panacea.  But does it mitigate those problem areas where we'd desire it in its best form?<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by electricninjasex on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:57 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>QFE.</P> <P>This is the most important aspect of your entire post (to me anyway) Dejah.</P> <P><STRONG>Oh... And I thouroughly tested MB with my debuffs... and the damage never changed. It was a flat rate of 5xPower, unmitigatable up or down.</STRONG></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Manaburn was always affected by MAGIC debuffs since I was invited into beta about a month before EoF went live.  Either they changed this after you did your tests, and before I was invited, or you did something seriously wrong.  </P>

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>Also, I want to see exact power numbers used for each hit, verbatim. If I can see PROOF that on low power, it still hits for 30k+, then I will shut up. Currently all I still see is damage numbers and CLAIMS of power. I need proof that disputes my beta findings.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Here's the thing.  I don't need to prove anything to you, because I could care less if you change your mind and go get Manaburn.  Hell, it would tickle my fancy if I was the only wizard out there that spec'd for this build.  I <STRONG>could</STRONG> go back through my logs, parse up the entire thing, find which fights had the manaburns, and extract out the durations.  I could even show my over-all damage and durations for those fights.  But I'm not going to do that because convincing you is, well, a waste of my time.   If you want proof, go spec it yourself and try it out.</P> <P>I have Manaburn.  I use Manaburn regularly.  I find Manaburn useful in its current form.  That is my feedback to the devs. </P>

[Sant]

Im with you Dejah, I have been using manaburn for 3 levels now and every group  im in is constantly wowed by what i can do with it. <div></div>

[Zyphius]

<DIV>Ok Dejah... Then I guess it is safe to assume you are talking out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and everything y'all said is BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], so can I.</DIV>

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok Dejah... Then I guess it is safe to assume you are talking out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and everything y'all said is BS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], so can I.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm sorry that my disinterest in your ability to play the wizard class makes me a haxx0red expletive in your eyes.  But I didn't post here to argue one play style over another.  I only posted because this is a feedback thread for Manaburn and I wanted to give my feedback.   If you choose not to believe my numbers are genuine, then go spec Manaburn and generate your own numbers.  You have the ability to test it out for yourself, and come to your own conclusions.  I don't know how you tested it on beta, but you should probably do your tests again since you failed to notice that debuffs affect Manaburn's damage.</P>

[Nastharl]

Hail to Dejah.It doesn't matter to me weather you're right or not, I'm inspired to try and go get it now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Granted i have a long ways, but ya it seems cool <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> With any kinda respectable regen , seems like you could burn it towards the end of a named if you know the rest of your big nukes are gonna be down.... Fusion on recharge + IN on recharge + 5 % =Burn time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Silentsta]

Zone wide parse.  Manaburn will up your numbers in the new raid zones that you are takeing your time in, this affects the 5min recast and gives you more time to up your power between fights.  Old zones that your guild chain pulls and just kills for the status/loot to brake down for adornments, your zone wide parse goes down.This is one skill that every wizard in the game is not going to benifit from.  Raid set ups and overall raid dps (how fast your raid goes through the zone) is going to play a major role in which wizards find MB as a dps increase and which ones find it as a decrease.  Conculsion: Both sides of the arguement can be correct.  IMO, lifeburn is better.  Dont nerf lifeburn, bring manaburn up a bit to equal it.<div></div>

[bas]

<DIV>Exactly, a guild that chain pulls and almost always has mobs in camp, manaburn will totally useless for that wizard.  You will use manaburn on 1 fight, then the next fight your dps will drop to like 700-900 because your trying to get power back the entire fight.. then the next few fights you will still have low dps till you can get your power back.  Then use manaburn again and its a repeat cycle.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your guild takes 5 minutes between epic pulls.. Then you might actually find Manaburn useful cause you actually have time to grab power back, and trash mobs dont really matter.  On any named fight, ill end up with no more then 20% power, depending on what fight it is.  The 7 seconds it takes to cast manaburn, i could already have been casting a critted fusion, and have ice nova incoming, and still have more power to nuke for that last couple %.  All that would still add up to the damage you got from manaburn at 20% and still have power to nuke if you didnt use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug, i find it useless...</DIV><p>Message Edited by basik on <span class=date_text>12-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:33 PM</span>

[Kamelkurt]

The thing I really don't like about Manaburn, is the 30 sec immunity the mob gains after being hit by one. I guess most wizards would do the same thing I would, and save Manaburn for when a named Epic mob is pulled. Then wait for the mob to reach 10% HP or so, and start casting it. If there is more than one wizard in the raid with Manaburn, one of them will just end up with a big fat message saying "Spell will not take effect", and have wasted 7 seconds on absolutely nothing.I understand the reason SoE made the affected mob gain immunity (to prevent raids with 24 wizards), but with 30 seconds immunity, having more than one wizard in the raid with this spell, would be a complete waste of AA points, wouldn't it?<div></div>

[Nastharl]

You guys are kinda missing his point. Yes at 20% power you can let off and IN and a fusion? Why manaburn instead? uhhhDontIN Fusion then manaburn the rest off.<div></div>

[KillerMojo]

<P>The most I have ever seen an Ice Nova land for is 21K, and that is on a mob that is severly debuffed.  At my 520 int (yeah i know it sucks but I just hit 70), my Ice Nova does just over 9K but I have seen it close to 11K with enough int.  Ok, so with debuffs you gained 10K damage.  I am sure the wizard's Ice Nova was higher, but we'll use 11K for arguement sake.  That's almost 100% increase in damage.</P> <P>Now, if you have:</P> <P>10K power and are at 1/3, you have 3,333 power.  </P> <P>3,333 power x 5 = 16665 X 2 (100% increase) = 33330 damage.  </P> <P>Now, I know that number is high but it's base on a couple thing that are definately favouring manaburn:  </P> <P>#1, used 10K power not 8K, which increase damage. </P> <P>#2, Ice Nova should be higher and probably used a Freehand Sorcery to get 21K which means the increase from debuffs ins't 100%, more like 50%, if that. </P> <P>If we factor all that in, there is no way that you would be able to mathematically do 30K damage off of 1/3 power to a mob that is even heavily debuffed.  </P> <P>1/3 of 8K = 2.4K x 5 = 12K * 1.50(additional 50%) = 18K which seems more of the real deal.  </P> <P>Even if you add 100% to that from debuffs, you only do 24K.  Not even 1K less mana when burning has that much of a difference on the end result.  All I can say is If you can do it, prove it.  If you don't want to prove it, then don't blame us for siding with logic as the proof is in the math.</P><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>12-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 AM</span>

[Demens]

To prove manaburn's usefulness and your point we need xxx mana did xxx damage against xxx mob.Personally i'm only interested in named raid mobs. Trash is exactly that and with very few exceptions heroics are a walk in the park for raid equiped groups.<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<P>So I decided to respec and give manaburn another go(just hit 21st eof aa yesterday).  Dehah's one of the few wizards who's opinion I trust, and i'm going to give it some time and thorough testing before I make any decisions on which way to go.</P> <P>I'll report back with my findings.</P> <P>I've done 2 group instances so far Crypt of valdoon and Oblisk of blight.</P> <P>The thing I can tell you about manaburn, is that the 50% hp restriction seems to be the TOTAL HP in the encounter.  So for instance valdoon has an add (pet) and I MB him more than half his hp (killed him at 60%) hit for 35k or something like that, My self buffed power now with power line is almost 8200 (fortify elements with 5 points is 637 i believe-and vital conversion is 473 power back, also cardinal with KOS aa's takes 2.7 seconds to cast- only 3 points in this)</P> <P>Also went to oblisk, and MB the final named.  Was with guild group, and had an illusionist with arcane debuff, and he also used perpetuality to get a t7 hex doll on mob.  I manaburned him for 51k, took me down to 6% power from full.  I also did about 75% of his health in damage. </P> <P>If we work the numbers (illusionist debuff 930ish - T7 hex 730ish = 1650ish magic debuff) 8190 power total and MB consumed 7698.6 power, so the un-debuffed manaburn should of hit for 38493, but with -1650 to magic it hit for 51k, which added approx 12507 to MB damage or about 24% more dmg.</P> <P>We'll see how it works out with raiding this week.  I can say that 473 power back from vital conversion is very nice, and will come in quite handy on 3+ min fights.</P> <P>The way I see it now, is burn through power like usual, then when raid mob gets to say 20-15% (depending on dps) vital conversion, + cardinal +any power clickies then manaburn, and if mob still up vital conversion and bol.  but i'm sure i'll find other ways to try to maximize its use and report back.</P>

[Elra]

just a quick note: Its extremely nice against mobs with curse of insanity (for kill shots). Extremely situational? Maybe, but its just an AA.

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>So I decided to respec and give manaburn another go(just hit 21st eof aa yesterday).  Dehah's one of the few wizards who's opinion I trust, and i'm going to give it some time and thorough testing before I make any decisions on which way to go.</P> <P>I'll report back with my findings.</P> <P>I've done 2 group instances so far Crypt of valdoon and Oblisk of blight.</P> <P>The thing I can tell you about manaburn, is that the 50% hp restriction seems to be the TOTAL HP in the encounter.  So for instance valdoon has an add (pet) and I MB him more than half his hp (killed him at 60%) hit for 35k or something like that, My self buffed power now with power line is almost 8200 (fortify elements with 5 points is 637 i believe-and vital conversion is 473 power back, also cardinal with KOS aa's takes 2.7 seconds to cast- only 3 points in this)</P> <P>Also went to oblisk, and MB the final named.  Was with guild group, and had an illusionist with arcane debuff, and he also used perpetuality to get a t7 hex doll on mob.  I manaburned him for 51k, took me down to 6% power from full.  I also did about 75% of his health in damage. </P> <P>If we work the numbers (illusionist debuff 930ish - T7 hex 730ish = 1650ish magic debuff) 8190 power total and MB consumed 7698.6 power, so the un-debuffed manaburn should of hit for 38493, but with -1650 to magic it hit for 51k, which added approx 12507 to MB damage or about 24% more dmg.</P> <P>We'll see how it works out with raiding this week.  I can say that 473 power back from vital conversion is very nice, and will come in quite handy on 3+ min fights.</P> <P>The way I see it now, is burn through power like usual, then when raid mob gets to say 20-15% (depending on dps) vital conversion, + cardinal +any power clickies then manaburn, and if mob still up vital conversion and bol.  but i'm sure i'll find other ways to try to maximize its use and report back.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very interesting Illu.  I wonder how much this would have done with a Dispatch and other debuffs besides the illusionist one and the T7 Hex Doll.  Next time you are in a fight thought, I would like to see you do as some people say, and burn with 1/3 power and try and get 30K+ hits.  I want to see if what they say is possible.

[Fews]

<DIV>Well, I haven't tried a respec to MB yet, but I will try it. Hey I am one of those wizards who have four times respeced out of my preferred class AA setup at 10 plat each. So I like emprical tests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As of right now without MB, I have gotten(last night...will check eq2players for it.but doubt that makes it into top 100) a 58.8K hit with Ball of Lava on a named epic x4 vampire in Mistmore Inner Chambers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Given current raid zones MB may have certain appeal if it really hits hard when mob is debuffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What doesn't work on/with MB as far as people know? I assume freehand sorcery doesn't. Can MB crit?</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>So I decided to respec and give manaburn another go(just hit 21st eof aa yesterday).  Dehah's one of the few wizards who's opinion I trust, and i'm going to give it some time and thorough testing before I make any decisions on which way to go.</P> <P>I'll report back with my findings.</P> <P>I've done 2 group instances so far Crypt of valdoon and Oblisk of blight.</P> <P>The thing I can tell you about manaburn, is that the 50% hp restriction seems to be the TOTAL HP in the encounter.  So for instance valdoon has an add (pet) and I MB him more than half his hp (killed him at 60%) hit for 35k or something like that, My self buffed power now with power line is almost 8200 (fortify elements with 5 points is 637 i believe-and vital conversion is 473 power back, also cardinal with KOS aa's takes 2.7 seconds to cast- only 3 points in this)</P> <P>Also went to oblisk, and MB the final named.  Was with guild group, and had an illusionist with arcane debuff, and he also used perpetuality to get a t7 hex doll on mob.  I manaburned him for 51k, took me down to 6% power from full.  I also did about 75% of his health in damage. </P> <P>If we work the numbers (illusionist debuff 930ish - T7 hex 730ish = 1650ish magic debuff) 8190 power total and MB consumed 7698.6 power, so the un-debuffed manaburn should of hit for 38493, but with -1650 to magic it hit for 51k, which added approx 12507 to MB damage or about 24% more dmg.</P> <P>We'll see how it works out with raiding this week.  I can say that 473 power back from vital conversion is very nice, and will come in quite handy on 3+ min fights.</P> <P>The way I see it now, is burn through power like usual, then when raid mob gets to say 20-15% (depending on dps) vital conversion, + cardinal +any power clickies then manaburn, and if mob still up vital conversion and bol.  but i'm sure i'll find other ways to try to maximize its use and report back.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>After pages of flaming me, you are finally going to try actual in game testing over theories... good.  It's just too bad it took a few days of argueing and a second opinion.  Now it's Putergod's turn.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>So I decided to respec and give manaburn <STRONG><U>another go</U></STRONG><BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>After pages of flaming me, you are finally going to try actual in game testing over theories... good.  It's just too bad it took a few days of argueing and a second opinion.  Now it's Putergod's turn.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The flames attached to your posts were because you didn't provide a shred of proof, I honestly dont know you, your a relative newbie to the forums (sorry if that title offends you take it up with SOE).</P> <P>I do trust dehah's opinion, and <U>his</U> post made me re-consider trying manaburn AGAIN on live.</P> <P>I will go into more detail on how effective mana burn will be for me than simply stating I find it useful (if I conclude so) For raiding, soloing, and also grouping.</P> <P>I have already provided #'s for the analytical folks to start doing some calculations based on my group experience.  I'll post the zone parses from those group instances soon enough.  In oblisk manaburn accounted for 11% of my dps.  I do not recall how much valdoon it accounted for, but I basically used it when it was available, and saved it if we were close to a named.</P> <P>So in otherwords, if there is some usefulness to this abilty, I'll try to provide PROOF of its usefull ness and share it with the rest of teh community</P> <P>Some other interesting tid-bits about manaburn with Spellshaping, and spellshifting (12% faster recast and 14.4% haste)</P> <P>manaburn's re-use is 4 min 28 sec</P> <P>manaburn's cast time is 5.28 sec.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:32 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 AM</span>

[Fews]

<DIV>Myself I just ignore flames.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My read of all of this is that</DIV> <DIV>        a) some people have found MB useful in their play</DIV> <DIV>        b) some people have not found it useful in beta</DIV> <DIV>        c) some people think in theory it isn't useful</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it is good that some of group A have strongly tried to evangilize the usefulness of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it is also good that people in B and C have pushed back. That is called debate, and the fact that people in A just</DIV> <DIV>didn't fold up and go away, means that they both think they are right, and have enough backbone to keep saying so without just rote repetition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact illusive is trying it out shows he isn't just a stubborn .... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact I am trying it out, well I try lots of things out and felt all along there may be some situations MB fits in and many it wouldn't, and you can see that in the tone of all my posts. My original take is that only a noob would go for it, because it didn't seem to add much bang. But having done most of the raid zones and killed a lot of named without it, I am interested in trying it...because I know what it "may" do in our raiding situations, and therefore it may be of value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would be nice if it proves to be a viable choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For grouping it's just a big showy spell for an end-game raid equipped group which is all I end up grouping with, not of real value for me there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For solo? Well it can speed up the root and nuke of named group mob. But I raid more than I solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for me my testing is whether it is of value in a raid environment, I can find that out in a week test of the raid zones. Yeah we raid every night,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:23 PM</span>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>The flames attached to your posts were because you didn't provide a shred of proof, I honestly dont know you, your a relative newbie to the forums (sorry if that title offends you take it up with SOE).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>maybe you didn't really read my posts then.  Honestly, everyone of them was examples of how I personally had used manaburn in game, actual examples... I even posted a parse screenie... actual data...  some would call this proof.  Your replies (and many others) to all my actual in game examples were theories of why my actual examples wouldn't work...when I was using them even as you posted... If you want to ignore me and listen to Debah, fine... the important thing is that I revitalized this thread to give the DEVELOPERS feedback on the usefulness of manaburn, and as a result, more wizzies are beginning to train it.<BR>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>The flames attached to your posts were because you didn't provide a shred of proof, I honestly dont know you, your a relative newbie to the forums (sorry if that title offends you take it up with SOE).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>maybe you didn't really read my posts then.  Honestly, everyone of them was examples of how I personally had used manaburn in game, actual examples... I even posted a parse screenie... actual data...  some would call this proof.  Your replies (and many others) to all my actual in game examples were theories of why my actual examples wouldn't work...when I was using them even as you posted... If you want to ignore me and listen to Debah, fine... the important thing is that I revitalized this thread to give the DEVELOPERS feedback on the usefulness of manaburn, and as a result, more wizzies are beginning to train it.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>sigh, how about we just leave the past posts...in the past!  I really dont feel like having to argue with you again over your posts about manaburn, when I'm currently testing its usefulness.

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR>sigh, how about we just leave the past posts...in the past!  I really dont feel like having to argue with you again over your posts about manaburn, when I'm currently testing its usefulness.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Now we're on the same page.  Debah opened this thread to provide us a place to show actual in game examples and data.  Let's us it for that and that alone.  *shakes hands w/ Illu*</P> <P>I posted the examples of how i had used manaburn on solo, grp and raid mobs as a guide for others who had just trained it.  Maybe you can give them a shot in game and help us polish up these strategies for the general wizzie population...</P>

[Sliverhammer]

Well, I like Manaburn. One in every 5-6 fights I can tope DPS with it, but also take note that sometiems I can use MB and still come 4-5th.Take the Fire/Ice lines, you'll ensure steady reliabe and high DPS.On the last FTH raid I hit a mob for 76.8k damage. probably had about 92% power, with a total of 7.4k power when I'm topped.Manaburn is doing over 50% damage after modifiers, my testing shows that the restriction is counting to the unmodified damage, and any extra you can get by debuffs is adding just fine over and above the max.On the worldwide Wizard magical highest hits, you'll see me in at number 53ish, you will also note that the first 50 or so places are gained through exploits or code failures which range from 200k to over a million damage. Then you will see the Manaburn numbers apear, the top so far is around 80K. Actually I don't know if the list has been updated yet, but my personal pages show the hit, and my rank, just not yet displayed on the worldwide list.Go forth, have fun, I experimented, and I am satisfied.SilverwolfAllureNajena

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I will go into more detail on how effective mana burn will be for me than simply stating I find it useful (if I conclude so) For raiding, soloing, and also grouping.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:32 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:35 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Haha.  I have my methods, ask Illuminator how much of a PITA I am.  Let's just say, I'm protective of my class because it is a popular choice for new players.  I'm not just going to hand the keys to DPS over to anyone, what is the fun in that?  I won't stop or complain if someone else takes it upon themselves to do it though.</P> <P>How about a cryptic tip?</P> <P><STRONG>When Manaburn is up you'd be wise to cast the ability with virtualy no power cost more often than you would otherwise.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Meditate on that, but don't think too hard, that could be painful.</STRONG> :smileywink:</P>

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sliverhammer wrote:<BR><BR>Manaburn is doing over 50% damage after modifiers, my testing shows that the restriction is counting to the unmodified damage, and any extra you can get by debuffs is adding just fine over and above the max.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is what I have observed as well.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I will go into more detail on how effective mana burn will be for me than simply stating I find it useful (if I conclude so) For raiding, soloing, and also grouping.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:32 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:35 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Haha.  I have my methods, ask Illuminator how much of a PITA I am.  Let's just say, I'm protective of my class because it is a popular choice for new players.  I'm not just going to hand the keys to DPS over to anyone, what is the fun in that?  I won't stop or complain if someone else takes it upon themselves to do it though.</P> <P>How about a cryptic tip?</P> <P><STRONG>When Manaburn is up you'd be wise to cast the ability with virtualy no power cost more often than you would otherwise.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Meditate on that, but don't think too hard, that could be painful.</STRONG> :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>to each their own i guess.</P> <P>I prefer to share my knowledge with the community.  Good , bad, or otherwise.</P>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>The flames attached to your posts were because you didn't provide a shred of proof, I honestly dont know you, your a relative newbie to the forums (sorry if that title offends you take it up with SOE).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>maybe you didn't really read my posts then.  Honestly, everyone of them was examples of how I personally had used manaburn in game, actual examples... I even posted a parse screenie... actual data...  some would call this proof.  Your replies (and many others) to all my actual in game examples were theories of why my actual examples wouldn't work...when I was using them even as you posted... If you want to ignore me and listen to Debah, fine... the important thing is that I revitalized this thread to give the DEVELOPERS feedback on the usefulness of manaburn, and as a result, more wizzies are beginning to train it.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I saw nothing showing the ACTUAL amount of power you had when it was cast. I believe that is all I asked for.</P> <P>I know Illu will post his power numbers and hits (and will provide exactly what I need to make an INFORM decision on MB on live), and if it is indeed capable of what a couple of you have claimed, then I will give it a try. I don't have enough EoF AA on live yet to respec to it, so I will monitor Illu's post about it (he is the wizard I trust the most to provide 100% accurate data - sorry, but I haven't seen you around very long).</P>

[HerzenFunia]

<P>IMHO</P> <P>As I relised on beta manaburn is good for trash mobs, i found it very uselful. I have even posted ss of my dps with manaburn from beta in parse thread. But it's all up to the player. As I stated somewhere before I prefer myself long hard fight or at least just long. For example Chel'Drak, Matron, Tender of Seedlings, Malkonis and another big bossess. Manaburn cant be useful on 6 min fight, well yeah you can use it at the end with some low pwr and get low dmg, but i would prefer to have my AA points in another abilities which will give me advantage on long fights.</P> <P>It's all very simple, just decide what you like more - bigger numbers on trash or bigger numbers on long fights.</P>

[Tanit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>HerzenFunia wrote:<p>As I relised on beta manaburn is good for trash mobs, i found it very uselful. I have even posted ss of my dps with manaburn from beta in parse thread. But it's all up to the player. As I stated somewhere before I prefer myself long hard fight or at least just long. For example Chel'Drak, Matron, Tender of Seedlings, Malkonis and another big bossess. Manaburn cant be useful on 6 min fight, well yeah you can use it at the end with some low pwr and get low dmg, but i would prefer to have my AA points in another abilities which will give me advantage on long fights.</p><hr></blockquote>Yeah thats why im reluctant to switch to it as well. It was a fun spell to cast though when i had it in beta. >.<<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<DIV>MORE MANABURN UPDATES:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>manaburn IS affected by Freehand sorcery, CONFIRMED</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>manaburn IS affected by Brainstorm, CONFIRMED</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>t7 hex doll debuff adds about 5.9% damage to manaburn.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Manaburn will exceed the 50% hp threshold with freehand sorcery and/or brainstorm, in addition to magic debuffs (t7 hex doll) CONFIRMED.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ALL of the above stack and will move you past the 50% hp restriction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crunched #'s and highest possible hit from manaburn with 10k power (30% freehand, 8% brainstorm) and max raid debuff(50%) = 105,300.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(i never got to test this on beta because the stupid betabuffer gives you a 2 handed staff, which cancells freehand and brainstorm)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 PM</span>

[KillerMojo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <DIV>MORE MANABURN UPDATES:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>manaburn IS affected by Freehand sorcery, CONFIRMED</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>manaburn IS affected by Brainstorm, CONFIRMED</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>t7 hex doll debuff adds about 5.9% damage to manaburn.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Manaburn will exceed the 50% hp threshold with freehand sorcery and/or brainstorm, in addition to magic debuffs (t7 hex doll) CONFIRMED.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ALL of the above stack and will move you past the 50% hp restriction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crunched #'s and highest possible hit from manaburn with 10k power (30% freehand, 8% brainstorm) and max raid debuff(50%) = 105,300.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(i never got to test this on beta because the stupid betabuffer gives you a 2 handed staff, which cancells freehand and brainstorm)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:18 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nice info Illu!  Keep it coming!<BR></DIV>

[Zyphius]

<DIV>Illu... then somthing was changed, because I got AA buffed in beta on my copied character, with my one hander, still maintained FS and Brainstorm, and while I didn't use FS on it, brainstorm did not effect it at all, and I believe I tried the T7 hex doll as well with no increase in damage. The cast timer was effected by sagacity though, which helped.</DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your work, and keep the info coming. We all appreciate it.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>Illu... then somthing was changed, because I got AA buffed in beta on my copied character, with my one hander, still maintained FS and Brainstorm, and while I didn't use FS on it, brainstorm did not effect it at all, and I believe I tried the T7 hex doll as well with no increase in damage. The cast timer was effected by sagacity though, which helped.</DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your work, and keep the info coming. We all appreciate it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not sure what happened from beta to live, but It was easily testable that both brainstorm and freehand worked.</P> <P>First test was against my favorite test mobs the ridgestone defenders outside nest.</P> <P>I went over 50% damage, and wanted to figure out how.</P> <P>So I equipped a secondary(to cancell brainstorm), and re-manaburned bam 50% of hp and no more taken away.</P> <P>So I unequipped secondary and mob went down past  50% (I dont have the damage figures but it went from roughly 12,200 dmg -without brainstorm to 12,800 dmg which is close enough to 8% to be the culprit)</P> <P>Then I used freehand prior to manaburn, whamo mob dropped to 34% from 100%.</P> <P> </P> <P>Highest hit so far was 49k against the venermorous tyrant (tank mob has like 100k hp--in the hive on drednever) took me from 8197 power to 690ish and dropped him to 34% from 100%.</P> <P>nuked carnovingian for 36k  actually killed him with 1900 resists to divine.  His invocation nailed me 3x for 1k dmg while i poked my head out from a tree to ice nova/re-root him  took 2 ice novas after that to kill him.  (normally he takes like 7k to divine to live through his invocation)</P>

[DerFunkBlaster]

<DIV>I only read the first 2 pages of this and have no idea if this was answered... but can manaburn crit? Only 6 aa points away from getting this and am wondering if its worth it.</DIV>

[DerFunkBlaster]

I also wanted to add... to be able to spit out 100k dmg at the beginning of a raid encounter would be pretty powerful... debuffs accounted for... with the amount of time it would take other classes to catch up to 100k you could already be at 50% mana +, back in the game and nuking away.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> <DIV>I only read the first 2 pages of this and have no idea if this was answered... but can manaburn crit? Only 6 aa points away from getting this and am wondering if its worth it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> I also wanted to add... to be able to spit out 100k dmg at the beginning of a raid encounter would be pretty powerful... debuffs accounted for... with the amount of time it would take other classes to catch up to 100k you could already be at 50% mana +, back in the game and nuking away.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you would die, need an immidiate no rez sickness, use the claymore clicky, rebuff group buffs, get re-buffed by others,  all withiin 20 or so seconds to "stay ahead of the game" so to speak.</P> <P> </P> <P>the advantage I see, is if a paly is MT'ing, manaburning off the bat, will give them enough spike hate to have the entire raidforce go full burn in 5.3 seconds.</P> <P>9k power(my typical raid buffed power) + brainstorm + freehand + max debuffs would equate to a 81,900 point nuke, and transfer 33,579 points of hate to the paly with (41% amends)</P> <P>no need to worry about a paly MT loosing agro after that.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

[DerFunkBlaster]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> I also wanted to add... to be able to spit out 100k dmg at the beginning of a raid encounter would be pretty powerful... debuffs accounted for... with the amount of time it would take other classes to catch up to 100k you could already be at 50% mana +, back in the game and nuking away.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you would die, need an immidiate no rez sickness, use the claymore clicky, rebuff group buffs, get re-buffed by others,  all withiin 20 or so seconds to "stay ahead of the game" so to speak.</P> <P> </P> <P>the advantage I see, is if a paly is MT'ing, manaburning off the bat, will give them enough spike hate to have the entire raidforce go full burn in 5.3 seconds.</P> <P>9k power(my typical raid buffed power) + brainstorm + freehand + max debuffs would equate to a 81,900 point nuke, and transfer 33,579 points of hate to the paly with (41% amends)</P> <P>no need to worry about a paly MT loosing agro after that.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If only amends was group and raid target....<BR></DIV>

[KillerMojo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> I also wanted to add... to be able to spit out 100k dmg at the beginning of a raid encounter would be pretty powerful... debuffs accounted for... with the amount of time it would take other classes to catch up to 100k you could already be at 50% mana +, back in the game and nuking away.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you would die, need an immidiate no rez sickness, use the claymore clicky, rebuff group buffs, get re-buffed by others,  all withiin 20 or so seconds to "stay ahead of the game" so to speak.</P> <P> </P> <P>the advantage I see, is if a paly is MT'ing, manaburning off the bat, will give them enough spike hate to have the entire raidforce go full burn in 5.3 seconds.</P> <P>9k power(my typical raid buffed power) + brainstorm + freehand + max debuffs would equate to a 81,900 point nuke, and transfer 33,579 points of hate to the paly with (41% amends)</P> <P>no need to worry about a paly MT loosing agro after that.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>With that siad illu:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>81,900 - 33, 579 = 48321 hate</DIV> <DIV>48321 - 33579 = 14742 hate gap between you and the pally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means you would still have to wait a few seconds before casting manaburn or you will still be kissing the ground.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ultimately, Derfunkblaster, if that was the main goal (to increase pally hate generation), I don't think the Raid Leader would have any problem with you being in the MT group and as far as a wizard is concerned, it is pretty close to a win, win because you get hate syphon allowing you to DPS.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:27 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 AM</span>

[DerFunkBlaster]

don't forget about rescue for lovely situations like getting aggro after a manaburn

[KillerMojo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> don't forget about rescue for lovely situations like getting aggro after a manaburn<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Does Paladin rescue produce enough hate to counter 15K points of damage though?  Is the SK feign death raid castable?  That would be nice.  A paladin tanking to amends you, cast mana burn and then have a SK feign death you to reset your position on the hate list.</DIV><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[DerFunkBlaster]

Technically you would transfer 36855 points of dmg hate to the pally tank, because you also have the 4% transfer with our hate transfer buff... which would leave the gap at 11466

[DerFunkBlaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> don't forget about rescue for lovely situations like getting aggro after a manaburn<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Does Paladin rescue produce enough hate to counter 15K points of damage though?  Is the SK feign death raid castable?  That would be nice.  A paladin tanking to amends you, cast mana burn and then have a SK feign death you to reset your position on the hate list.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>or work on tinkering and have your own feign death ability.. hmm

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> don't forget about rescue for lovely situations like getting aggro after a manaburn<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Does Paladin rescue produce enough hate to counter 15K points of damage though?  Is the SK feign death raid castable?  That would be nice.  A paladin tanking to amends you, cast mana burn and then have a SK feign death you to reset your position on the hate list.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>or work on tinkering and have your own feign death ability.. hmm<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unfortunately, I have other things to spend my money on instead of wasting time and money on trying to level a skill for a single purpose, a feign death charm.  Masters and better gear are the on the top two list of better ways to spend my money.

[DerFunkBlaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> don't forget about rescue for lovely situations like getting aggro after a manaburn<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Does Paladin rescue produce enough hate to counter 15K points of damage though?  Is the SK feign death raid castable?  That would be nice.  A paladin tanking to amends you, cast mana burn and then have a SK feign death you to reset your position on the hate list.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:31 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>or work on tinkering and have your own feign death ability.. hmm<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unfortunately, I have other things to spend my money on instead of wasting time and money on trying to level a skill for a single purpose, a feign death charm.  Masters and better gear are the on the top two list of better ways to spend my money.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>was only a suggestion my friend... but having a class in the wizards group to fd him would be a great idea</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> Technically you would transfer 36855 points of dmg hate to the pally tank, because you also have the 4% transfer with our hate transfer buff... which would leave the gap at 11466<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>it doesn't stack like that</P> <P>the most recent buff applied takes precedence.  So if you cast anomalism after being amended, you wont be transferring 45% hate but instead 4% hate.</P> <P>if you cast anomalism prior to being amended you would transfer 41% hate, but still gain the +power proc benefit.</P> <P>The SK feign death is a great idea, that would give the paly enough time to recoup the hate before you stood back up. (that is raid wide)</P>

[DerFunkBlaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> Technically you would transfer 36855 points of dmg hate to the pally tank, because you also have the 4% transfer with our hate transfer buff... which would leave the gap at 11466<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>it doesn't stack like that</P> <P>the most recent buff applied takes precedence.  So if you cast anomalism after being amended, you wont be transferring 45% hate but instead 4% hate.</P> <P>if you cast anomalism prior to being amended you would transfer 41% hate, but still gain the +power proc benefit.</P> <P>The SK feign death is a great idea, that would give the paly enough time to recoup the hate before you stood back up. (that is raid wide)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow, that sucks... i've been wondering why amends wouldnt work... thanks for solving that. i'm surprised they dont stack... its only 4% lol... </P>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>(he is the wizard I trust the most to provide 100% accurate data - sorry, but I haven't seen you around very long).</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You don't need to apologize, but you should realize that the little # on the left of this post, next to "Posts:" is not a wizzie skill meter.  Posting on EQ2Players has no relevance to in game knowledge.  Just because you don't know me doesn't mean that actual in game examples and parse screen shots are bogus.  Now go train manaburn and join the party.

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>(he is the wizard I trust the most to provide 100% accurate data - sorry, but I haven't seen you around very long).</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You don't need to apologize, but you should realize that the little # on the left of this post, next to "Posts:" is not a wizzie skill meter.  Posting on EQ2Players has no relevance to in game knowledge.  Just because you don't know me doesn't mean that actual in game examples and parse screen shots are bogus.  Now go train manaburn and join the party.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not saying they were bogus, but if we ask numbers from Illu he will produce to back up his point.  We've asked you numberous times to post an SS of power before and after a manaburn and then a parse to show the damage done and you have done none of the sort. 

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> don't forget about rescue for lovely situations like getting aggro after a manaburn<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Does Paladin rescue produce enough hate to counter 15K points of damage though?  Is the SK feign death raid castable?  That would be nice.  A paladin tanking to amends you, cast mana burn and then have a SK feign death you to reset your position on the hate list.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:31 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>or work on tinkering and have your own feign death ability.. hmm<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unfortunately, I have other things to spend my money on instead of wasting time and money on trying to level a skill for a single purpose, a feign death charm.  Masters and better gear are the on the top two list of better ways to spend my money.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>was only a suggestion my friend... but having a class in the wizards group to fd him would be a great idea</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My apologize if I appeared to be attacking you in this post.  I meant no such thing.

[DerFunkBlaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DerFunkBlaster wrote:<BR> don't forget about rescue for lovely situations like getting aggro after a manaburn<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Does Paladin rescue produce enough hate to counter 15K points of damage though?  Is the SK feign death raid castable?  That would be nice.  A paladin tanking to amends you, cast mana burn and then have a SK feign death you to reset your position on the hate list.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:31 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>or work on tinkering and have your own feign death ability.. hmm<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unfortunately, I have other things to spend my money on instead of wasting time and money on trying to level a skill for a single purpose, a feign death charm.  Masters and better gear are the on the top two list of better ways to spend my money.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>was only a suggestion my friend... but having a class in the wizards group to fd him would be a great idea</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My apologize if I appeared to be attacking you in this post.  I meant no such thing.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>all good.. =)

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>(he is the wizard I trust the most to provide 100% accurate data - sorry, but I haven't seen you around very long).</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You don't need to apologize, but you should realize that the little # on the left of this post, next to "Posts:" is not a wizzie skill meter.  Posting on EQ2Players has no relevance to in game knowledge.  Just because you don't know me doesn't mean that actual in game examples and parse screen shots are bogus.  Now go train manaburn and join the party.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>your absolutely right, the # of posts here doesn't equate to actual in game knowledge.</P> <P>what it does equate to is a certain amount of trust.  I've been posting on the wizard forums for the past 2 years, some people may view my opinion with a greater amount of interest, than someone who just recently began posting.</P> <P>Also the fact that I play with KillerMojo(on the same server) and have attempted to help putergod increase his raid dps, does help to up his trustworthyness of my posts over yours.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 AM</span>

[ItsMrHarris2u]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR>We've asked you numberous times to post an SS of power before and after a manaburn and then a parse to show the damage done and you have done none of the sort. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm the only one who has posted a screenshot actually, showing my dps go up by almost 1k over a second wizzie, just from a manaburn.  I'm sorry if I didn't provide EXACT mana numbers or the situation I used it in, but I was basically under attack and I would have only gotten as a reply, "and that single situation is supposed to be worth 21aa's?".</P> <P>Look, Debah and I are not here to provide the exact numbers, maybe that is Illu's specialty.  Yet, I have revitalized this thread and given what you quote as "none of the sort".    Every single situation is different, and no screenshot would ever convince the overly stubborn wizzies out there.... my intention was, and still is, to tell the developers that they got manaburn right.</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR>We've asked you numberous times to post an SS of power before and after a manaburn and then a parse to show the damage done and you have done none of the sort. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm the only one who has posted a screenshot actually, showing my dps go up by almost 1k over a second wizzie, just from a manaburn.  I'm sorry if I didn't provide EXACT mana numbers or the situation I used it in, but I was basically under attack and I would have only gotten as a reply, "and that single situation is supposed to be worth 21aa's?".</P> <P>Look, Debah and I are not here to provide the exact numbers, maybe that is Illu's specialty.  Yet, I have revitalized this thread and given what you quote as "none of the sort".    Every single situation is different, and no screenshot would ever convince the overly stubborn wizzies out there.... my intention was, and still is, to tell the developers that they got manaburn right.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It certainly didn't help your position.  The number crunching folks like myself kept getting "does not compute" from your posts.</P> <P>I think though knowing now that brainstorm and freehand DO affect manaburn(along with magic debuffs) is enough to sway a few wizards to try it out and see if it fits for them.</P> <P>Because with those three combined(raid setting), it up's manaburns efficiency ratio to just over 10:1</P> <P>which means using it when you only have say 1500 power at the end of a raid fight and ice nova/fusion are not up, you can vital conversion for 473 more power and manaburn for a 20k nuke, and the more power you have at the end, the bigger the hit.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:36 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 AM</span>

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR>We've asked you numberous times to post an SS of power before and after a manaburn and then a parse to show the damage done and you have done none of the sort. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm the only one who has posted a screenshot actually, showing my dps go up by almost 1k over a second wizzie, just from a manaburn.  I'm sorry if I didn't provide EXACT mana numbers or the situation I used it in, but I was basically under attack and I would have only gotten as a reply, "and that single situation is supposed to be worth 21aa's?".</P> <P>Look, Debah and I are not here to provide the exact numbers, maybe that is Illu's specialty.  Yet, I have revitalized this thread and given what you quote as "none of the sort".    Every single situation is different, and no screenshot would ever convince the overly stubborn wizzies out there.... my intention was, and still is, to tell the developers that they got manaburn right.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If it wasn't for Mr Habbis's feedback on Manaburn, people following this thread would have only had the theoretical-nay-sayers view on it.  A view that was flawed in many ways considering they hadn't even trained the ability yet on live.  People keep accusing him of not providing enough proof.  To this all I say is get off your lazy butts.  He gave his feedback, you can either believe him, not believe him, or train in the ability yourself and give you own feedback.  But if you haven't trained in the ability, you should think really hard before you post critically of people who have had first hand experience with the ability on live, because there is a very good chance you're going to make yourself look like a fool for not knowing what you are talking about.</P> <P>Mr Habbis just may have the last laugh.  The real question is, will he rub it in your faces or will he continue to do what he tried to do in the first place: help other players.  I hope its the latter, because he seems like a nice guy.</P>

[KillerMojo]

<P>Actually, a picture is worth 1000 words.  No matter what you are fighting, if you post a screenie backing your statements, you have less to worry about explaining.  I know Illu, and he is a facts guy.  Provide him the information he asks and he will have no problem agreeing with you if your SS and/or numbers back your statements.  The same goes for many other wizards out there.  This class is about numbers which is why most of us look for them and show them when we are looking at points, such as does manaburn suck, or not.</P> <P>You posted one DPS parse with one manaburn.  Hardly all the information people were requesting.  If you were under attack, that's more of a reason to prove yourself right by providing all of the information, i.e. type of mob, amount of mana used, debuffs, buffs, etc, which give us an ACCURATE picture of what's going on, not just a half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] one.</P> <P>My "none of the sort" was in regards to you not posting SS or numbers for power consumed etc, after numberous requests by many wizards throughout this post.  BTW, what does my "none of the sort" have to do with revitalizing a thread?  Who cares if you revitalized this thread or not.  You gave one parse with no other information besides you in other words saying "I am uber because I have mana burn and I burned for 30K".  </P> <P>All any of the wizards here ask, is that when you make a statement for or against something, post ANY and ALL applicable information, including, but not limited to, parses and screenshots.  If you want to win an arguement or debate, this is one way to shut everyone else up, myself included.  </P>

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR>We've asked you numberous times to post an SS of power before and after a manaburn and then a parse to show the damage done and you have done none of the sort. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm the only one who has posted a screenshot actually, showing my dps go up by almost 1k over a second wizzie, just from a manaburn.  I'm sorry if I didn't provide EXACT mana numbers or the situation I used it in, but I was basically under attack and I would have only gotten as a reply, "and that single situation is supposed to be worth 21aa's?".</P> <P>Look, Debah and I are not here to provide the exact numbers, maybe that is Illu's specialty.  Yet, I have revitalized this thread and given what you quote as "none of the sort".    Every single situation is different, and no screenshot would ever convince the overly stubborn wizzies out there.... my intention was, and still is, to tell the developers that they got manaburn right.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If it wasn't for Mr Habbis's feedback on Manaburn, people following this thread would have only had the theoretical-nay-sayers view on it.  A view that was flawed in many ways considering they hadn't even trained the ability yet on live.  People keep accusing him of not providing enough proof.  To this all I say is get off your lazy butts.  He gave his feedback, you can either believe him, not believe him, or train in the ability yourself and give you own feedback.  But if you haven't trained in the ability, you should think really hard before you post critically of people who have had first hand experience with the ability on live, because there is a very good chance you're going to make yourself look like a fool for not knowing what you are talking about.</P> <P>Mr Habbis just may have the last laugh.  The real question is, will he rub it in your faces or will he continue to do what he tried to do in the first place: help other players.  I hope its the latter, because he seems like a nice guy.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am not saying Mr Harris is a bad guy.  I think it's funny that you call me lazy but you don't even know me.  I was never for or against manaburn.  The thing is, I would train it, but I don't have enough AAs yet.  To be honest with you, if someone suggests something to me, I ask why, a.k.a. I want proof.  To me and most other wizards, the proof is in the numbers, and not just one screenshot of one parse of a fight.  It includes much more then that.   He might be right, he might be wrong about manaburn.  I am not going to say either way right now.  But Illu was the first one to say, hey, it's effected by debuffs, it's effected by freehand, it does more then 50%.  Why couldn't he say this?  Is it that hard?  Illu so far has given me more information in a day then the posts of Mr Harris have in several days.  Why couldn't he just do what Illu did and post some facts?  That's all most of us, including me, have asked, and I have been met with nothing but attacks because someone wouldn't prove their point.  They have to let someone else train the ability and then prove for or against what they are saying which to me is lazy.  You want to post a piece of feedback, do it, but provide all the facts or don't post at all.</P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:07 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR>We've asked you numberous times to post an SS of power before and after a manaburn and then a parse to show the damage done and you have done none of the sort. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm the only one who has posted a screenshot actually, showing my dps go up by almost 1k over a second wizzie, just from a manaburn.  I'm sorry if I didn't provide EXACT mana numbers or the situation I used it in, but I was basically under attack and I would have only gotten as a reply, "and that single situation is supposed to be worth 21aa's?".</P> <P>Look, Debah and I are not here to provide the exact numbers, maybe that is Illu's specialty.  Yet, I have revitalized this thread and given what you quote as "none of the sort".    Every single situation is different, and no screenshot would ever convince the overly stubborn wizzies out there.... my intention was, and still is, to tell the developers that they got manaburn right.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If it wasn't for Mr Habbis's feedback on Manaburn, people following this thread would have only had the theoretical-nay-sayers view on it.  A view that was flawed in many ways considering they hadn't even trained the ability yet on live.  People keep accusing him of not providing enough proof.  To this all I say is get off your lazy butts.  He gave his feedback, you can either believe him, not believe him, or train in the ability yourself and give you own feedback.  But if you haven't trained in the ability, you should think really hard before you post critically of people who have had first hand experience with the ability on live, because there is a very good chance you're going to make yourself look like a fool for not knowing what you are talking about.</P> <P>Mr Habbis just may have the last laugh.  The real question is, will he rub it in your faces or will he continue to do what he tried to do in the first place: help other players.  I hope its the latter, because he seems like a nice guy.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am not saying Mr Harris is a bad guy.  I think it's funny that you call me lazy but you don't even know me.  I was never for or against manaburn.  The thing is, I would train it, but I don't have enough AAs yet.  To be honest with you, if someone suggests something to me, I ask why, a.k.a. I want proof.  To me and most other wizards, the proof is in the numbers, and not just one screenshot of one parse of a fight.  It includes much more then that.   He might be right, he might be wrong about manaburn.  I am not going to say either way right now.  But Illu was the first one to say, hey, it's <STRONG><EM><U>effected by debuffs</U></EM></STRONG>, it's effected by freehand, it does more then 50%.  Why couldn't he say this?  Is it that hard?  Illu so far has given me more information in a day then the posts of Mr Harris have in several days.  Why couldn't he just do what Illu did and post some facts?  That's all most of us, including me, have asked, and I have been met with nothing but attacks because someone wouldn't prove their point.  They have to let someone else train the ability and then prove for or against what they are saying which to me is lazy.  You want to post a piece of feedback, do it, but provide all the facts or don't post at all.</P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>i'm pretty sure dehah posted that first.<BR>

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I am not saying Mr Harris is a bad guy.  I think it's funny that you call me lazy but you don't even know me.  I was never for or against manaburn.  The thing is, I would train it, but I don't have enough AAs yet.  To be honest with you, if someone suggests something to me, I ask why, a.k.a. I want proof.  To me and most other wizards, the proof is in the numbers, and not just one screenshot of one parse of a fight.  It includes much more then that.   He might be right, he might be wrong about manaburn.  I am not going to say either way right now.  But Illu was the first one to say, hey, it's effected by debuffs, it's effected by freehand, it does more then 50%.  Why couldn't he say this?  Is it that hard?  Illu so far has given me more information in a day then the posts of Mr Harris have in several days.  Why couldn't he just do what Illu did and post some facts?  That's all most of us, including me, have asked, and I have been met with nothing but attacks because someone wouldn't prove their point.  They have to let someone else train the ability and then prove for or against what they are saying which to me is lazy.  You want to post a piece of feedback, do it, but provide all the facts or don't post at all.</P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The lazy comment was not directed at any single person.  It was directed at the people who demand proof.  You have two options, if you have the AA points, then spec it yourself and get your own proof.  Or, you can crunch your numbers and hope you didn't mess up somewhere, for example, by listening to someone who said debuffs doesn't affect it.  What proof did that person provide of debuffs not affecting it.  What proof has anyone provided that freehand, brainstorm, or catalyst does or does not affect it.  Absolutely none.  All we have are different players reporting different things. </P> <P>Hell, some people probably still think debuffs don't affect it.  After all, they tested it themselves in beta and there is no way they could have messed up their test and reported the wrong info, right?</P> <P>I can't believe you have the audacity to tell people to not post their feedback if they don't post any proof.  Maybe you should be the one that stops posting, as this is a feedback thread for Manaburn and you haven't even used the ability before. </P>

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I am not saying Mr Harris is a bad guy.  I think it's funny that you call me lazy but you don't even know me.  I was never for or against manaburn.  The thing is, I would train it, but I don't have enough AAs yet.  To be honest with you, if someone suggests something to me, I ask why, a.k.a. I want proof.  To me and most other wizards, the proof is in the numbers, and not just one screenshot of one parse of a fight.  It includes much more then that.   He might be right, he might be wrong about manaburn.  I am not going to say either way right now.  But Illu was the first one to say, hey, it's effected by debuffs, it's effected by freehand, it does more then 50%.  Why couldn't he say this?  Is it that hard?  Illu so far has given me more information in a day then the posts of Mr Harris have in several days.  Why couldn't he just do what Illu did and post some facts?  That's all most of us, including me, have asked, and I have been met with nothing but attacks because someone wouldn't prove their point.  They have to let someone else train the ability and then prove for or against what they are saying which to me is lazy.  You want to post a piece of feedback, do it, but provide all the facts or don't post at all.</P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The lazy comment was not directed at any single person.  It was directed at the people who demand proof.  You have two options, if you have the AA points, then spec it yourself and get your own proof.  Or, you can crunch your numbers and hope you didn't mess up somewhere, for example, by listening to someone who said debuffs doesn't affect it.  What proof did that person provide of debuffs not affecting it.  What proof has anyone provided that freehand, brainstorm, or catalyst does or does not affect it.  Absolutely none.  All we have are different players reporting different things. </P> <P>Hell, some people probably still think debuffs don't affect it.  After all, they tested it themselves in beta and there is no way they could have messed up their test and reported the wrong info, right?</P> <P>I can't believe you have the audacity to tell people to not post their feedback if they don't post any proof.  Maybe you should be the one that stops posting, as this is a feedback thread for Manaburn and you haven't even used the ability before. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never said that I believed the people who posted that debuffs don't effect manaburn.  To the contrary, I actually calculated debuffs into my math.  And everyone is entitled to the FACTS provided by other players about manaburn and this these forums as they are linked to your account and technically, you pay for them.  If they aren't, then this thread should be deleted as half the people don't have manaburn and shouldn't have posted.</P> <P>Not providing any facts is like going into court as a defendant and having no defense.  You are going to lose simply because you cannot prove your point to other people, which is the problem here. You should just plead guilty and no go to court, or in this case not even post.  Not posting facts, is like hear-say which is inadmissable in court.  I could also make statements about a persons sexual orientation,  but unless I provide proof then why should anyone else believe it? It's also like telling a dev to change something just because you say it's broken and not because you can prove it.</P> <P>With that being said, I will continue to monitor this post at my own leisure and ask for clarification and proof if I so desire so.</P><p>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ItsMrHarris2u wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR>We've asked you numberous times to post an SS of power before and after a manaburn and then a parse to show the damage done and you have done none of the sort. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm the only one who has posted a screenshot actually, showing my dps go up by almost 1k over a second wizzie, just from a manaburn.  I'm sorry if I didn't provide EXACT mana numbers or the situation I used it in, but I was basically under attack and I would have only gotten as a reply, "and that single situation is supposed to be worth 21aa's?".</P> <P>Look, Debah and I are not here to provide the exact numbers, maybe that is Illu's specialty.  Yet, I have revitalized this thread and given what you quote as "none of the sort".    Every single situation is different, and no screenshot would ever convince the overly stubborn wizzies out there.... my intention was, and still is, to tell the developers that they got manaburn right.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If it wasn't for Mr Habbis's feedback on Manaburn, people following this thread would have only had the theoretical-nay-sayers view on it.  A view that was flawed in many ways considering they hadn't even trained the ability yet on live.  People keep accusing him of not providing enough proof.  To this all I say is get off your lazy butts.  He gave his feedback, you can either believe him, not believe him, or train in the ability yourself and give you own feedback.  But if you haven't trained in the ability, you should think really hard before you post critically of people who have had first hand experience with the ability on live, because there is a very good chance you're going to make yourself look like a fool for not knowing what you are talking about.</P> <P>Mr Habbis just may have the last laugh.  The real question is, will he rub it in your faces or will he continue to do what he tried to do in the first place: help other players.  I hope its the latter, because he seems like a nice guy.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am not saying Mr Harris is a bad guy.  I think it's funny that you call me lazy but you don't even know me.  I was never for or against manaburn.  The thing is, I would train it, but I don't have enough AAs yet.  To be honest with you, if someone suggests something to me, I ask why, a.k.a. I want proof.  To me and most other wizards, the proof is in the numbers, and not just one screenshot of one parse of a fight.  It includes much more then that.   He might be right, he might be wrong about manaburn.  I am not going to say either way right now.  But Illu was the first one to say, hey, it's <STRONG><EM><U>effected by debuffs</U></EM></STRONG>, it's effected by freehand, it does more then 50%.  Why couldn't he say this?  Is it that hard?  Illu so far has given me more information in a day then the posts of Mr Harris have in several days.  Why couldn't he just do what Illu did and post some facts?  That's all most of us, including me, have asked, and I have been met with nothing but attacks because someone wouldn't prove their point.  They have to let someone else train the ability and then prove for or against what they are saying which to me is lazy.  You want to post a piece of feedback, do it, but provide all the facts or don't post at all.</P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>i'm pretty sure dehah posted that first.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If he did, they I apologize for my mistake and props to Dehah for pointing that out.

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Some blah</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am not saying Mr Harris is a bad guy.  I think it's funny that you call me lazy but you don't even know me.  I was never for or against manaburn.  The thing is, I would train it, but I don't have enough AAs yet.  To be honest with you, if someone suggests something to me, I ask why, a.k.a. I want proof.  To me and most other wizards, the proof is in the numbers, and not just one screenshot of one parse of a fight.  It includes much more then that.   He might be right, he might be wrong about manaburn.  I am not going to say either way right now.  But Illu was the first one to say, hey, it's effected by debuffs, it's effected by freehand, it does more then 50%.  Why couldn't he say this?  Is it that hard?  Illu so far has given me more information in a day then the posts of Mr Harris have in several days.  Why couldn't he just do what Illu did and post some facts?  That's all most of us, including me, have asked, and I have been met with nothing but attacks because someone wouldn't prove their point.  They have to let someone else train the ability and then prove for or against what they are saying which to me is lazy.  You want to post a piece of feedback, do it, but provide all the facts or don't post at all.</P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You took the words right out of my mouth. I know Illu will post what you and I need to see to be truely informed. I await his testing and his findings with power numbers, damage numbers, etc.</P> <P>Mr. Harris... It's not about the "number beside his name". It's about the fact that for two years I have debated, listened, and verified all kinds of aspects of the wizard class with Illu, and he has never been one to make empty claims. He wont come out and say "you should train this because it's so uber", but instead provide several instances of proof of it's ability, and give all information needed, to include screenshots, numbers (big key here... and not just 30k... actual numbers that can be calculated to coincide with his ss and assestments), and situation to disect the evidence in order to make a well informed decision on what works best for each individual's playstyle. THEN he will give his opinion of the ability according to his playstyle.</P> <P>My playstyle is much like his... His opinion holds a lot of weight with me.<BR></P>

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Not providing any facts is like going into court as a defendant and having no defense.  You are going to lose simply because you cannot prove your point to other people, which is the problem here. You should just plead guilty and no go to court, or in this case not even post.  Not posting facts, is like hear-say which is inadmissable in court.  I could also make statements about a persons sexual orientation,  but unless I provide proof then why should anyone else believe it? It's also like telling a dev to change something just because you say it's broken and not because you can prove it.</P> <P>Message Edited by KillerMojo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:45 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN>I'm not sure what country you are from, but here in the good old USA we have something called "Innocent until Proven Guilty".  If a spell doesn't say "isn't affected by debuffs" then why would anyone assume it was unless it was proven otherwise. Innocent, until proven guilty.  The burden of proof doesn't fall on the defendant, it falls upon the prosecution.  But thanks for making the court analogy for me, because I was thinking the same thing.</SPAN></P>

[govtcheeze]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>putergod wrote:</P> <P>You took the words right out of my mouth. I know Illu will post what you and I need to see to be truely informed. I await his testing and his findings with power numbers, damage numbers, etc.</P> <P>Mr. Harris... It's not about the "number beside his name". It's about the fact that for two years I have debated, listened, and verified all kinds of aspects of the wizard class with Illu, and he has never been one to make empty claims. He wont come out and say "you should train this because it's so uber", but instead provide several instances of proof of it's ability, and give all information needed, to include screenshots, numbers (big key here... and not just 30k... actual numbers that can be calculated to coincide with his ss and assestments), and situation to disect the evidence in order to make a well informed decision on what works best for each individual's playstyle. THEN he will give his opinion of the ability according to his playstyle.</P> <P>My playstyle is much like his... His opinion holds a lot of weight with me.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thanks for the laughs!</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <DIV>The last few days of beta it was the same as it is now... except now they have restriced it even more (immunity).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sucked then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sucks now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's suckiness, in the same state as before, didn't somehow disappear because you said it does. We have used it, we know it blows [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and you don't know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you are talking about.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR> <P><BR>Q. Was the game mechanics somehow different in beta than it is now?</P> <P>A. Ummm... No</P> <P>Q. Was MB changed after beta to something more useful?</P> <P>A. No</P> <P>Q. Did the fact that it hasn't changed since beta somehow miraculous change the game mechanics to morph around MB so that it would actually be useful so people like you can say "you haven't tried it" when we indeed have?</P> <P>A. Ummmm... No</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>putergod wrote:</P> <P>Oh... And I thouroughly tested MB with my debuffs... and the damage never changed. It was a flat rate of 5xPower, unmitigatable up or down.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>To group yourself with Illu, whom I also hold high regard for in his open mindedness and ability to test, does him a <STRONG>great misfavor</STRONG>.</P> <P>You are now being forced to drink a tall, warm glass of S-T-F-U because you were very wrong. Dejah and Harris won't do it because they are classy guys, but I do not claim to be so here it is. Drink up.</P> <P>You provided zero facts, parses, numbers, or screenshots in your tirade against those of us who supported MB. I gave two very real scenarios from beta (that Harris supported in LIVE after his testing)  where MB in a group and solo setting were uber useful and worth the 21 points, my mistake (and F-it point with this thread) was assuming people like you were competent enough to realize MB was cast when IN and Fusion were down. You set forth some counter examples, all of which showed your inability to think for yourself and realize how casting order is a dynamic series of cause/effect events, not something you mindlessly memorize as 1-2-3-4-5-2-6-7-4-5 and push until a mob is dead. The testing Dejah Illu and Marris are performing only makes MB MUCH more useful as they uncover all the things people assumed it couldn't do.</P> <P>Here is a fact you might enjoy... real world testing: 1, assumptions and theory: 0</P>

[govtcheeze]

<P>Now to add some substance again, here is a list of AAs I (and others? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) would be interested to see MB work with:</P> <P>STR line:<BR>Spell Expertise: <FONT color=#ccff00>unknown, likely</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00> no</FONT> (MB does not crit, confirmed?)<BR>Catalyst: <FONT color=#ccff00>unknown, likely</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00> no</FONT> (MB does not crit, confirmed?)<BR><BR>AGI line:<BR>Spellshaping: <FONT color=#ff0000>YES</FONT> <FONT color=#ffffff>5.33 sec cast time (14.4% rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></FONT>Spellshifting: <FONT color=#ff0000>YES</FONT> <FONT color=#ffffff>4 min 28 sec recast (12% reuse reduction)</FONT></P> <P>WIS line:<BR>Freehand Sorcery: <FONT color=#ff0000>YES</FONT><BR>Brainstorm: <FONT color=#ff0000>YES</FONT><BR>Sagacity: <FONT color=#ccff00>unknown</FONT>, would likely be a bug if it does</P> <P>Shielding line:<BR>Spell Reach: <FONT color=#ccff00>unknown</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by govtcheeze on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:07 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> govtcheeze wrote:<BR> <P>Now to add some substance again, here is a list of AAs I (and others? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) would be interested to see MB work with:</P> <P>STR line:<BR>Spell Expertise: <FONT color=#ccff00>unknown, likely</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00> no</FONT> (MB does not crit, confirmed?)<BR>Catalyst: <FONT color=#ccff00>unknown, likely</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00> no</FONT> (MB does not crit, confirmed?)<BR><BR>AGI line:<BR>Spellshaping: <FONT color=#ff0000>5.33 sec cast time (14.4% rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>Spellshifting: <FONT color=#ff0000>4 min 28 sec recast (12% reuse reduction)</FONT></P> <P>WIS line:<BR>Freehand Sorcery: <FONT color=#ff0000>YES</FONT><BR>Brainstorm: <FONT color=#ff0000>YES</FONT><BR>Sagacity: <FONT color=#ccff00>unknown</FONT>, would likely be a bug if it does</P> <P>Shielding line:<BR>Spell Reach: <FONT color=#ccff00>unknown</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Manaburn has not critcally hit at any time during my testing.  I also only have a passive 7.9% crit chance, so it could take 100 uses of manaburn to see if once and for all it will or wont crit.  I do not have catalyst, so I dont know if manaburn's damage will increase with catalyst.  </P> <P>The nice thing about manaburn is that it's damage remains constant if you test on the same mob and same level.  When I did my testing yesterday, the damage with freehand and brainstorm was always the same amount, not even a 1 point variation.  the mobs were all lvl 64 green ^^.  So it makes testing manaburn very easy, and made confirming brainstorm and freehand working easy as well.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN>I'm not sure what country you are from, but here in the good old USA we have something called "Innocent until Proven Guilty".  If a spell doesn't say "isn't affected by debuffs" then why would anyone assume it was unless it was proven otherwise. Innocent, until proven guilty.  The burden of proof doesn't fall on the defendant, it falls upon the prosecution.  But thanks for making the court analogy for me, because I was thinking the same thing.</SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Off topic I'm sure but if you have ever gone to traffic court, your guilty until you can prove your innocent.  The burden of proof lies on the defendant, not the prosecution.  It would be nice if the court system actually worked like that but that isn't the case.   There are plenty of things in place that support that point.  No bail - a judge could decide that your to liable to remain in the free world and incarcerate you until your trial- hows that for innocent until proven guilty? or what if the prosecution decideds to plea bargain, you turn them down, and midway through the case you want to plea bargain, but they wont allow it because theyre "winning" the case.   Plea bargain is a cop out even if you are innocent, you can plead guilty to a lesser charger or lower fine ect and avoid the court.<BR>

[Dejah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN>I'm not sure what country you are from, but here in the good old USA we have something called "Innocent until Proven Guilty".  If a spell doesn't say "isn't affected by debuffs" then why would anyone assume it was unless it was proven otherwise. Innocent, until proven guilty.  The burden of proof doesn't fall on the defendant, it falls upon the prosecution.  But thanks for making the court analogy for me, because I was thinking the same thing.</SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Off topic I'm sure but if you have ever gone to traffic court, your guilty until you can prove your innocent.  The burden of proof lies on the defendant, not the prosecution.  It would be nice if the court system actually worked like that but that isn't the case.   There are plenty of things in place that support that point.  No bail - a judge could decide that your to liable to remain in the free world and incarcerate you until your trial- hows that for innocent until proven guilty? or what if the prosecution decideds to plea bargain, you turn them down, and midway through the case you want to plea bargain, but they wont allow it because theyre "winning" the case.   Plea bargain is a cop out even if you are innocent, you can plead guilty to a lesser charger or lower fine ect and avoid the court.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>True, but another way to look at it is that if the prosecution didn't have evidence, you wouldn't be facing charges.  Until they caught you speeding, you were innocent of it.  They had to catch you speeding to be able to drag you into court.  In other words, they can't drag you into court until they have some form of proof or evidence of wrong doing.</P> <P>Wow, this thread is going way off topic now.</P>

[HerzenFunia]

<P>Posted screenie of parse where i used manaburn.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=29370#M29370" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=29370#M29370</A></P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN>I'm not sure what country you are from, but here in the good old USA we have something called "Innocent until Proven Guilty".  If a spell doesn't say "isn't affected by debuffs" then why would anyone assume it was unless it was proven otherwise. Innocent, until proven guilty.  The burden of proof doesn't fall on the defendant, it falls upon the prosecution.  But thanks for making the court analogy for me, because I was thinking the same thing.</SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Off topic I'm sure but if you have ever gone to traffic court, your guilty until you can prove your innocent.  The burden of proof lies on the defendant, not the prosecution.  It would be nice if the court system actually worked like that but that isn't the case.   There are plenty of things in place that support that point.  No bail - a judge could decide that your to liable to remain in the free world and incarcerate you until your trial- hows that for innocent until proven guilty? or what if the prosecution decideds to plea bargain, you turn them down, and midway through the case you want to plea bargain, but they wont allow it because theyre "winning" the case.   Plea bargain is a cop out even if you are innocent, you can plead guilty to a lesser charger or lower fine ect and avoid the court.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>True, but another way to look at it is that if the prosecution didn't have evidence, you wouldn't be facing charges.  Until they caught you speeding, you were innocent of it.  They had to catch you speeding to be able to drag you into court.  In other words, they can't drag you into court until they have some form of proof or evidence of wrong doing.</P> <P>Wow, this thread is going way off topic now.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>now your assuming that you were guilty of wrong doing, and thus justying your presence in court.  That logic only holds true if you really were guilty, and when you were not speeding, but a simmilar looking car blazed past you and a traffic officer pulls you over under false pretense, then proceeds to write you a voilation for a crime you did not commit, the burden of proving your innocence lies on the defendant.</P> <P>In otherwords, your guilty, until you can prove your not.<BR></P>

[Sliverhammer]

Would you two quit posting longer and longer replies to each other *smack*Take it to PM's, we're interested about manaburn ( I was unitl I decided for myself how to go about utilising it)not your hypothetical car speeding squabble.<p>Message Edited by Sliverhammer on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> govtcheeze wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P>Blah, more blah, and nothing but blah...</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nice selective reading dip[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<BR></P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sliverhammer wrote:<BR>Would you two quit posting longer and longer replies to each other *smack*<BR><BR>Take it to PM's, we're interested about manaburn ( I was unitl I decided for myself how to go about utilising it)not your hypothetical car speeding squabble. <P>Message Edited by Sliverhammer on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>i'm not smack talking at dehah, dont knwo where your getting that from.</P> <P> </P> <P>but here some more proof in the posting for ya to scrutinize  oblisk of blight today. <STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0000>(pay no attention to DPS figure--act has a bug with the current version that doesn't calculate this correctly--my EXT DPS for the zone is actually 1417 dps. duration spent fighting was 48 min 39 s.)</FONT></U></STRONG></P> <P><IMG src="http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/397/oblisk.bmp"></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<P>and heres crypt of valdoon today with 0 hate reduction  zone dps was 1150ish</P> <P><IMG src="http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/397/crypt%20120506.bmp"></P>

[KillerMojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>and heres crypt of valdoon today with 0 hate reduction  zone dps was 1150ish</P> <P><IMG src="http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/397/crypt%20120506.bmp"></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How did you get the battles to merge?  I have not been to do this as of yet and it would be nice to post parses.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillerMojo wrote:<BR> <BR>How did you get the battles to merge?  I have not been to do this as of yet and it would be nice to post parses.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>click on show check boxes.</P> <P>click on the fights you want to merge</P> <P>click on merge button at the bottom of act.</P> <P>unclick show check boxes (to be able to expand the merged fights)<BR></P>

[Sliverhammer]

Oh I wasn't saying you were *smack* talking, I was *smack*ing you both on the head to get on topic... which I have no gone off, self fullfilling prophecy sadly <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I got up to 8.4k power last night on Chel-Drak, dropped an 80k MB on him, having manaburn isn't even as detrimental to my DPS as I first thought, it's completely viable imho.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sliverhammer wrote:<BR>Oh I wasn't saying you were *smack* talking, I was *smack*ing you both on the head to get on topic... which I have no gone off, self fullfilling prophecy sadly <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>I got up to 8.4k power last night on Chel-Drak, dropped an 80k MB on him, having manaburn isn't even as detrimental to my DPS as I first thought, it's completely viable imho.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>mind sharing when you manaburned, and how much power you had when you manaburned? and also the parse for it?

[Demens]

I was present during silver's burn on chel'drak believe he had around 8k mana at time of burn.I don't have a parse for it, as it's a hard fight to parse so i don't normally bother.Not saying it's worth all the points, but it is starting to look like it's worth investigating further.<div></div>

[Sant]

Well I just got an 11k hit today and im 40th lvl. I have found that I can take named mobs i would never have tried before I got manaburn. <div></div>

[tass]

in beta it would hit for about 45k pending on how much mana u had because it would use up all the mana in exchange for power. But since I was able to kill off fully fabled 70 tanks pvp wise and 3 arrow herotics and names all lv 70 or higher they found it just a bit overpowered. Plus it was useless in raids as u wasted all ur power on maby 45k when a few other spells could equal that no problem. I personally think it isnt worth 20 aa points when they could be used to quicken other nukes while reducing power cost.<div></div>

[Dejah]

<DIV>On a short fight (<20sec) in Inner Sanctum I Manaburned at almost full power for the hell of it and hit for 80,120.  It is my new highest hit if you'd like to verify it yourself.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<P>This was our 5th or 6th attempt in HOS, couldn't make it past teh overlord, but I did get parse info of the rest of the mobs, and also the trap named down the steps (forgot name)</P> <P>Here'sa screenie if my damage breakdown using manaburn.</P> <P><IMG src="http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/397/HOS.bmp"></P> <P> </P> <P>I found that manaburning off the start = bad for dps really quickly.</P> <P>So I started trying to time casting within the last 7-10% which is very difficult to do, I managed to get it right on one fight, and parsed exceptionally high for that fight (nearly 2900 dps shown below)</P> <P>Please take this parse with a grain of salt, because we had long breaks and lots of afks after wipes and pulls while we were figuring out the zone, and as i predicited it would inflate manaburn (20% of my dps) higher than normal, we spent 30 min fighting, but i manaburned 10x, which shows you it was up for nearly each encounter.  </P> <P>Also i tend to not use fusion as much in here because jousting the aoe for a fusion doesn't always seem to enhance my dps unless its over 15k.  which isn't the norm for my fusions.</P> <P>anyways i hope to have a bigger sample for raiding in the near future.  So far tho my first impressions of it on live in a RAID setting is a bit dismal.</P> <P>I did do one manaburn with full power (about 9k) after the brigand dispatched and used freehand sorc +24%</P> <P>and manburn hit for 86190, and sucked all my power dry. </P> <P>nearly all the 50k hits were from about 50-60% power at the end of a trash mob fight.</P> <P>here's a list of the 10 manaburn hits and their corresponding parses</P> <P><STRONG><U>**new version of act fixed dps so this is in DPS not ext dps***</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U>42559</U></STRONG></P> <P>This fight I tried using mana efficient spells, so that I could end the fight with more power, and used 2 ice novas, and as a result freehand was not up to use with manaburn, but I burned with about 55-60% power I got the kill shot with manaburn on this mob.</P> <P>Allies: (01:56) 904980 | 7802 [Illu-Manaburn-42559]<BR>Illu 145214 | 1438 me<BR>Haun 91677 | 1030 ranger<BR>Oben 79310 | 785 warlock<BR>Sead 76023 | 1434 wizard<BR>Ozzi 74180 | 757 wizard<BR>Alle 67431 | 586 conj<BR>Kyri 65235 | 1106 wizard<BR>Volt 59273 | 593 warlock<BR>Numb 56681 | 545 ranger<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>41520</U></STRONG></P> <P>This one i got manaburn off and mob died 2 seconds after manaburn landed, I manaburned with about 40-45% power</P> <P>Allies: (01:26) 878079 | 10210 [Illu-Manaburn-41520]<BR>Illu 156757 | 2340 me<BR>Sead 93356 | 1262  wiz<BR>Ozzi 87842 | 1394  wiz<BR>Oben 77051 | 1167 warlock<BR>Kyri 68893 | 1148 wiz<BR>Eapa 62550 | 745 conj<BR>Haun 61093 | 1175 ranger<BR>Numb 59566 | 945 ranger<BR>Mill 45167 | 684 sk<BR>Volt 42546 | 788 warlock<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>54609</U></STRONG></P> <P>This fight I manaburned too early, and mob stayed alive for 20 some odd seconds after manaburn hit, and i spent time regenning power trying to get off an ice nova and fusion, that ended up going to waste because mob died after that.  I guess this was a learning fight for me.</P> <P>Allies: (01:37) 1148644 | 11842 [Illu-Manaburn-54609]<BR>Illu 161157 | 1661  me<BR>Alle 110516 | 1242  conj<BR>Sead 99366 | 1212 wiz<BR>Kyri 94735 | 1141 wiz<BR>Ozzi 88720 | 1167  wiz<BR>Oben 86059 | 956  warlock<BR>Haun 79716 | 1077  ranger<BR>Volt 74185 | 843  warlock<BR>Eapa 68566 | 745  conj<BR>Numb 67414 | 843  ranger<BR>Mill 48153 | 580  sk<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>27383</U></STRONG></P> <P>This was the named a shadowy presence</P> <P>Allies: (04:27) 2190249 | 8203 [Illu-Manaburn-27383]<BR>Illu 240275 | 942<BR>Haun 206204 | 822<BR>Kyri 169099 | 679<BR>Alle 169078 | 676<BR>Numb 163032 | 685<BR>Ozzi 150685 | 591<BR>Oben 140958 | 548<BR>Sead 134288 | 531<BR>Eapa 133738 | 505<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>86190</U></STRONG></P> <P>This fight I manaburned off dispatch like 15s into fight, died rezed rebuffed and re-entered combat full dps</P> <P>Allies: (01:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1155053 | 11786 [Illu-Manaburn-86190]<BR>Illu 173867 | 1792<BR>Haun 97555 | 1251<BR>Alle 96088 | 1044<BR>Sead 88937 | 1186<BR>Ozzi 85868 | 976<BR>Kyri 81023 | 988<BR>Eapa 77895 | 875<BR>Oben 70597 | 831<BR>Numb 70534 | 793<BR>Volt 49542 | 557<BR>Kyle 45090 | 518 brig<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>38318</U></STRONG></P> <P>Allies: (01:00) 1038412 | 17307 [Illu-Manaburn-38318]<BR>Illu 144372 | 2887<BR>Alle 115543 | 1958<BR>Numb 93396 | 1831<BR>Oben 91094 | 1627<BR>Haun 82378 | 1872<BR>Kyri 79854 | 1479<BR>Sead 63964 | 1230<BR>Eapa 59101 | 1159<BR>Kala 49843 | 923  zerker<BR>Etho 47878 | 811  sk MT<BR>Mill 46298 | 798<BR>Kyle 36267 | 636<BR>Ozzi 35727 | 1786<BR>Bigb 25209 | 536  zerker<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>24459</U></STRONG></P> <P>This fight one of the mages pulled agro and the mob ran over and aoe'd the squishies (including me) so i didn't parse well because i was dead <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Allies: (02:51) 1181247 | 6908 [Illu-Manaburn-24459]<BR>Numb 134386 | 835<BR>Kyri 118367 | 764<BR>Haun 112786 | 773<BR>Illu 111906 | 691<BR>Volt 84247 | 523<BR>Kyle 82548 | 500<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>50820</U></STRONG></P> <P>Allies: (00:56) 814128 | 14538 [Illu-Manaburn-50820]<BR>Illu 133649 | 2387<BR>Alle 69199 | 1236<BR>Kyri 66352 | 1659<BR>Haun 66117 | 1837<BR>Numb 52934 | 1126<BR>Oben 48711 | 974<BR>Sead 44780 | 1317<BR>Volt 40487 | 826<BR>Ozzi 39716 | 845<BR>Kyle 38149 | 734<BR>Bigb 31819 | 600<BR>Mill 31280 | 569<BR>Eapa 31254 | 638<BR>Etho 29974 | 535<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>52718</U></STRONG></P> <P>Allies: (01:34) 1110898 | 11818 [Illu-Manaburn-52718]<BR>Illu 169005 | 1988<BR>Numb 100061 | 1352<BR>Sead 87836 | 1071<BR>Kyri 87739 | 1170<BR>Oben 75215 | 865<BR>Haun 73677 | 1133<BR>Ozzi 66535 | 792<BR>Alle 62397 | 686<BR>Volt 57985 | 716<BR>Kyle 55460 | 652<BR>Etho 52634 | 585<BR>Kala 45394 | 534<BR>Mill 40505 | 533<BR></P> <P><STRONG><U>53317</U></STRONG></P> <P>Allies: (01:12) 875292 | 12157 [Illu-Manaburn-53317]<BR>Illu 110246 | 1807<BR>Numb 83906 | 1332<BR>Haun 72279 | 1225<BR>Kyle 63566 | 921<BR>Sead 55261 | 1285<BR>Oben 54202 | 797<BR>Ozzi 52122 | 854<BR>Volt 50814 | 794<BR>Kala 50152 | 716<BR>Bigb 41235 | 665<BR>Mill 39584 | 628<BR>Exce 37890 | 549<BR>Etho 37152 | 531<BR></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 PM</span>

[Sant]

Nice numbers illusive, I find that Manaburn is much better when its used to finish mobs.  If its used early it builds to much aggro but if timed right can finish big nasty mobs fast.   I'm sure that  at the highest levels it wont be the finisher it is at 42lvl but I still think it adds enought damage to always be usefull. <div></div>

[stepha72]

<DIV>Manaburn has to be used when the mob is at 50% or under correct? </DIV> <DIV>Also do you coordinate with the other wizards in your guild to avoid the resists?  </DIV> <DIV>Because the mob is suppose to be resistent to manaburn for 30 seconds after manaburn is used correct?</DIV><p>Message Edited by stepha72 on <span class=date_text>12-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 AM</span>

[dmitya]

If you don't want mana burn, just make sure to use all your mana after tapping your lands... C'mon now, common sense. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[IllusiveThoughts]

<DIV>Here's our labs run yesterday and my manaburn usage on raids (manburn is becomming a huge pita to try to time correctly with mob death-- I had 3 fights where mob died at less than .5 s left on cast bar)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.controlledinertia.com/Portals/0/397/labs.bmp"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>here's the only fight I think I saw manaburn really shine, basically I used bol, and ice nova, surging tempest, and firey convultions, then manaburned at 27s.  going to post the labs zone parse in parse thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allies: (00:33) 477629 | 14474 [Illu-Manaburn-55018]<BR>Illu 92715 | 4031     me<BR></DIV>

[Fews]

<DIV>From the experimenting I have done so far, while doing the Mistmore Inner Sanctum and emerald halls, 90K+ manaburns are nice.... But losing all your mana and having 0 damage done (vs 60-90K) isn't. Using ACT to find out why, it seems that mobs often reflect. Reflect=0 damage to mob, and all your mana taken as if you had been successful. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's their(the mobs, Sony) new form of resist. Since manaburn can't outright be resisted...it is reflected instead. Doing 0 damage to mob and  consuming all of your power. Mind you those same mobs don't always reflect, so there is a bit in luck in whether you end up doing 90K damage or 0. That type of luck may make the difference of a raid wipe or a win..or perhaps better to substitute a melee DPS class for the wizard so that the reflect doesn't matter (No this didn't happen, but was brought up). Whether there are things we can do to minimize the likelihood of the reflect remains to be seen.  For some mobs the knowledge of when they reflect is a core concept in battling them, those I don't mind much...but if SOE is just adding reflect so that manaburn won't do anything because they are not allowed to have it "outright"  resisted...well that isn't so hot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fewson</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 PM</span>

[electricninjasex]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fewson wrote:<div></div> <div>From the experimenting I have done so far, while doing the Mistmore Inner Sanctum and emerald halls, 90K+ manaburns are nice.... But losing all your mana and having 0 damage done (vs 60-90K) isn't. Using ACT to find out why, it seems that mobs often reflect. Reflect=0 damage to mob, and all your mana taken as if you had been succesfull. </div><hr></blockquote>How polite of the game engine to spare you!  One would have expected that a reflected Manaburn will fry you where you stand.</div>

[Fews]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fewson wrote:<BR> <DIV>From the experimenting I have done so far, while doing the Mistmore Inner Sanctum and emerald halls, 90K+ manaburns are nice.... But losing all your mana and having 0 damage done (vs 60-90K) isn't. Using ACT to find out why, it seems that mobs often reflect. Reflect=0 damage to mob, and all your mana taken as if you had been succesfull. <BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How polite of the game engine to spare you!  One would have expected that a reflected Manaburn will fry you where you stand.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hehe, that is what suprised me at first. I said...ok, I lost all my power, saw no change in mob's health....what happened? (didn't have time during fight to find out..had to wait for post fight analysis. before next pull). If it had been reflected I would have thought the feedback would have been me dying or taking major damage.</P> <P>To argue the other side though, something that reflects does not have to reflect back on caster..it could reflect in another direction.  Also, SOE has spells we and mobs can cast that reflect as smaller strength, such as 25% of original strength (Course 25% of 90K would fry me) I would have to check logs to see if anything can be discerned.</P> <P>On one specific named mob, the Manaburn "disappeared"(reflected) on two seperate pulls, and because of other aspects of how that mob is designed, we wiped both those times. The third pull it wasn't reflected and we killed it. Done the mob many times before without reflection being an issue.</P> <P> </P> <P>Then noticed reflection on other mobs in a few zones. (As I said I don't mind it on specific named mobs who use it as part of their suite of things to make the fight tough..but not sure if the above named is/was meant to be one of those)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 PM</span>

[simpwrx02]

<P>As far as mana burn leaving you with no mana after it is cast here is one idea for recovering mana fast on a named fight should be around 15 seconds of down time for 4000 power back. ( 1 sec for city mercaht item, 1 second for draco gloves, 2sec for vitalic converion 1 second +10seconds of stifle vitalic cropping and use man stone while stifled).  draco gloves, then city mercahnt item vitalic conversion vitalic cropping, mana stone( you can use this while stifled)  This would actually make using mana burn on a named very useful, granted only once as the city mercahnt item is lore with only one charge.  with only 15 seconds till back at 50% power, that is only a max loss of 30,000 damage assuming a 2k dps(i personally cant get this and with EoF maybee only 1500 dps).</P> <P> </P> <P>Or if you take into account the whole manaburn step free hand then manaburn then the above mentioned step to recover mana is like 25 seconds total if mob is debuffed as long as you land manaburn for over 50k damage ( have seen plently of mana burns landing in the 60-90k range)  it should in theroy up your dps even for a long named fight.   I havent tried this out yet as i dont have mana burn, only 68 AAs right now, sure this is only one fight per zone, but it is a boss fight and shows that manaburn can be effective inthis situation  maybe cast right after the mob is dispatched by a brig for max hit. </P> <P> </P> <P>This is using illusivethought's suggestions in the power tree AAs as a base ( I have to give credit for the base of the idea, i just put my own twist on it for the gear that i have my twist being using the draco gloves and city merchant item).  yes i know that the draco gloves have a 30 minute reuse timer, but KoS AA affects it as does jesters cap from a troub.  To amke it evern more viable ask the aforementioned troub to cast jesters cap on you before you manaburn, this shortens the dracogloves to something silly like 14minutes for the reuse if i remember correctly.</P> <P> </P> <P>Add in some other mana items i know of a hat that has a 500+ mana clicky on it as well as the one urn from silent city quest, the one that does damage to you for a minute or so( this is really helpful with mana cloak on you since that spell regens power when ever you take damage and the urn is outside damage and gives you the proc from mana cloak)</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by simpwrx on <span class=date_text>12-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 AM</span>

[GMPOTU]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fewson wrote:<BR> <DIV>From the experimenting I have done so far, while doing the Mistmore Inner Sanctum and emerald halls, 90K+ manaburns are nice.... But losing all your mana and having 0 damage done (vs 60-90K) isn't. Using ACT to find out why, it seems that mobs often reflect. Reflect=0 damage to mob, and all your mana taken as if you had been succesfull. <BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How polite of the game engine to spare you!  One would have expected that a reflected Manaburn will fry you where you stand.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think it reflect the effect itself...ie cannot do more than 50% damage of targets max hp. Happened to me many times on clockwork menace and 1st named in MMIS when I had manaburn. Switched back to fireline now, but debating going back to manaburn and also debating going Wis/Agi instead of Str/Wis