AA permutations

[suroktheslayer5]

SO I've been respecing a lot, I tryed agi/wis, str/wis, agi/str. I really like having the agi line, I feel it's more useful and once you give it up you really notice how long the cast timers are. With Str you crit just about every other hit which is nice, I dunno if it's equal or greater than the 8% damage boost in the wiz line. Freehand is nice at 24% especialy with Fusion. I think Fusion benifits the most from the wiz line while your're other spells like irridate or aoe dots you get a lot more from str crits. The whole empty second slot bugs the hell out of me with the Wiz line. I gave up my staff of spectral fury which heals me for 450 and has some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice resists to use Wiz freehand. I think Str/Wis is nice for the big bosses in raids, but I rarly come up against them so I rather have Agi instead. So if you are a hard core raider then Str/Wis is probably right for you. I think it sucks for grouping, stuff dies too fast before you can get some nukes off. I'm waffing between Agi/Str and Agi/Wiz, I dunno which one gives more dps. Right now I'm AGi/Wiz <div></div>

[Melseb]

I think wizards would do best using AGI/WIS to push their dps.I am a warlock and I had STR/WIS for one day before i gave it up. My problem was that there was no way i could cast apocalypse with catalyst and FHS and live. I was consistently getting Apoc M1 ticks of 3600 (x4 ticks = 14,400 per mob in encounter). My class is way too aggro broke to do that much dps so i scrapped it and went for STR/AGI. The cool thing is that with AGI end ability + drake pet + the ring from chel'drak quest, all my 45 sec recast timers (Dark infestation and Apocalypse) are reduced to 36 seconds. Makes a decent difference in my dps.Daenarys 70 WarlockMob Squad Kithicor<div></div>

[SalBlu]

<P>Tested AGI/WIS and i'm not impressed.  Casting speed increases, spell recycle increase... it all meant that I just ran out of power faster.   You might do the same ammount of damage in the end as in the STR/WIS line, but I dont particularly like sitting around cannibalizing health to power when i could have just went the route of critical strikes for better one shot damage. </P> <P>I'm real y not impressed with the AGI line.</P>

[ailees]

that's exactly the point that has been told a lot alrady :there is not much difference in result between both lines, but some are more adequate to your own way of playing.casting fast or casting strong gives more or less the same result.I personnaly enjoyed yesterday when i saw my first adept3 icenova hitting for more than 20K. And I'm happy when i see a triple crit fusion (and a half dead wizard <span>:smileymad:</span>) and it is so fun when I see tons of mobs being hurt by my crit AE.I also enjoy taking risks, I dont care dying if I'm a big damager, I have money (and it is so cheap now to repair) I ahve spare stuff, I'm happy, what else can I say.And Illusive Thought would say different things about his own damages, but will also end by "<i>I do lot of damages and I'm happy</i>"  and THAT'S the POINT.<span>:womantongue:</span><div></div>

[suroktheslayer5]

OK let me throw in some fuzzy math<span>:smileywink:</span> Lets assume crits are 1.3 times normal damage, by training the crit chance to max it gives you around 12%. 1.3 x 0.12=0.156=15.6% boost in dps as compared to the max 8% from the wiz line. According to this calculation it demonstrates that Str will give you more dps than Wiz, (freehand not included). Agi gives you 12% more dps because you are casting 12% faster simple as that. Which is still greater than the 8% from wiz. The only factor I'm unable to calculate is the freehand, maybe freehand makes up for the rest or not. Thoughts? <div></div>

[Aeg]

<DIV>im str/agi with claymore reward. im mostly equiped with procs and effects which land additional damage, with the 8/8 in crits and 8/8 in cast times and with the end of the AGI line's recast AA, you are throwing down a ton of damage contantly, casting back to back spells with a high chance to crit and a high chance to proc with all your gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ive also played with str/wis and i enjoyed it very much, it is excellant when using triggered fusion and doing 25k damage in a single nuke, on 3 targets, you are also guarenteed to do more damage then anyone else on the raid can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as to which line does more, i couldent say. their both very good combinations.</DIV>

[suroktheslayer5]

Well I convienced myself, I went back to Str/Agi, I'll miss the uber big nukes str/wiz gave but in the end I think all the builds are pretty close to each other.  It really comes down to your play style, and I gotta give credit to SOE for testing the hell out of these possible combinations because they are all so very close to each other and useful and not useful in certain situations. I had the most fun playing Str/Agi, I love seeing the big numbers lots of times and I like being able to cast quickly. I won't get the SUPER BIG numbers like 25k fusions but if you ask me thats asking for trouble in a raid. Also MOA and 2 handed staff give 5% more crit  chance. <div></div>

[Melseb]

Do not pass by the AGI line because of power. Its very easy to get back with all the FT and power proc items in the game, some of which are very easy to get. You should have a sufficiently large power pool to chain cast in a 1.5-2 minute fight without power regen gear on. Get a gown of glory and that necromantic orb from that x2 guy in forsaken city.As a warlock, my single target raid dps went from 1300 max to 1600-ish max by going agi.Daenarys70 WarlockMob Squad Kithicor <div></div>

[Lakespookie]

<P>im speced agi 4/4/4/8/8 and str 4/4/4/8 wis 1</P> <P>i just hit the FT soft cap at 52 and im at 57 if the MOA isnt affected by the FT cap wich i belive it isnt with a troub im 7 points from the incombat hard cap of 105</P> <P>i have hit fusion for 22k lol even with out thre freehand although hits usually average 18-19k and i love my troubie for it lol <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> also im able to manage aggro beter due tp the cast time reductions and one thing to be noted if your casting more often your increasing your crit chances.....</P> <P>have a nice day if you have more questions let me know... but you can probably findit on other posts ive made lol <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[TsarRasput]

I personally when AGI 4/4/4/4/8  Wis 4/8/5/8  my Freehand is 30% and I get an extra 8% on all spells,  I rarely run out of power in fight, and the boosts from freehand at 53sec(AGI boost) I think I've got a good set up, anyone else go this way?<div></div>

[Kelson]

<P>For my own personal style, I like the Wisdom line.  But not for Freehand Sorcery.  Lots of people drool over that skill, but I'm all about passive abilities.</P> <P>Adding an 8% to all of my damage is a big boost.  Reducing my power consumption by 12% is also a great thing.  These are the 2 reasons I like the Wisdom line.  Everything else there is just gravy.</P> <P>The Agility line offers a lot too, yes.  But I haven't gotten any FT gear aside from my Prismatic, so I really can't say that I'd go AGI until I am loaded up with it.  Wizards are power hogs, plain and simple.  I don't need a setup that requires that I cast MORE spells and spend MORE power to get damage.  Thus, I'm going down the Strength line to maximize my crit chances.</P> <P>But to be honest, with Wizard aggro issues I'm half tempted to ditch the extra crits and go down the Intelligence line for the consistent aggro reduction (skipping the final ability in the line).  Maybe once I get a Skywatcher robe I won't feel the need to do so, but if I don't have a good tank, my day really sucks lol.  I've never been one to slack a lot on DPS just to survive.  It's my job to contribute as much DPS as possible when in a group, so that's exactly what I do.  I walk the fine line of aggro and occassionally cross it when pushing my boundaries.  Yes, a dead Wizard = 0 DPS.  So I try not to die, but you can't maximize your DPS contribution while slacking, either.  Besides, I get bored if I have to wait too much between casts, hehe.  Idle hands and all that.</P> <P>But I don't know if the aggro reduction offered by the Intelligence line would allow me to do more damage than the extra crits from the Strength line.  That's the big question that would decide it for me.  Until then, the big orange numbers sure are pretty.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>-Kelson</P><p>Message Edited by Kelson13 on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:09 AM</span>

[Aeg]

<DIV>i think its common knowledge that the int and sta lines are pretty much garbage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sta line doesnt give you near the amount of damage as the other ones do and i can pretty much go all out nuking and never get agro when i have a troub in my group and harmonic link on myself so int is just as bad.</DIV>

[Fews]

I am always up for experimention.So I dropped 10 plat to try a different AA line.I am a raiding Wizard, with lots of proc gear (Ring of Superiority, Fitzpizzles, etc. etc.) Fully Fabled, cheldrak ring to increase spell recast, Fully mastered other than protoferno (ad3), and shackle(ad3).I have been for a long time a AGI+WIS spec.(even though I felt the math said AGI+WIS. I just tried str+agi to see if the crits worked in a way that made reality different than theory..and maybe would make str a better choice)Just tried for two raid zones STR+AGI.Not a perfect test case as some raid variables changed. But with str+agi was rarely near top of parse, rarely died..but really seemed to be underpowered.So back to AGI+WIS variant again for me.(after I drop the 10 plat to revert back).BTW is there a cap on percent crit bonus? (I know the necro used to have a real high ability and that got nerfed..don't know if they just nerfed how much somthing gave them or capped the max, like FT is capped)Fewson - Level 70 WizzyDark HorizonThe_Bazaar<p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 PM</span>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>suroktheslayer5 wrote: Agi gives you 12% more dps because you are casting 12% faster simple as that. Which is still greater than the 8% from wiz. <hr></blockquote>Theoretically if you max Agi it should be giving you 28.4% more dps...you cast 14.4% faster and can recast your spells 12% faster.  I definately like the Agi line for pvp since it gives me a slight edge when fighting other casters since most take Catalyst, and for pvp Catalyst is terrible.  I also didn't like the hinderence of having to cast concussive>Catalyst>Spell and then still dying.</div>

[Fews]

Razer, It's not quite like that. A full analysis would be to take a length of a fight and fill out the time slots.At work so I can't give you concrete spell examplesBut lets take a few "imaginary spells" just as an exampleFor this I am only going to deal with recast...Assume you got 10% faster recasts[makes my math here at work easier]A)Medium recast nuke 2.5 sec cast 4 recast sec 3.6 fastrecast sec DAMAGE 4700B)Short recast nuke 1.5 sec cast 1.0 recast sec 0.9 fastrecast sec DAMAGE 1800C)Short recast nuke 1.0 sec cast 1.5 recast sec 1.35 fastrecast sec DAMAGE 1200Sequence 1 isCast Sequence 1(with improved recast): A2.5 C1.0 B1.5 C1.0 Pause0.1 Repeat (6.1 sec cycle does 7.1K damage for 1163.39 DPS)Cast Sequence 2(with either recast speeds): A2.5 C1.0 B1.5 C1.0 B1.5 Repeat (7.5 sec cycle does 8.9K damage for 1186.66 DPS)This is an imaginary example. But in this case improving recast only helps sequence 1 not sequence 2...and sequence 2 is the better irrespective of whether one has a recast bonus(Made a math error and corrected it, [the medium cast nuke was meant to have the better DPS of the spells<p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[Ultimatum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fewson wrote:Razer, It's not quite like that. A full analysis would be to take a length of a fight and fill out the time slots.<hr></blockquote>Hmmm I think you are right...I looked into this a bit, but I'm also at work so I don't have the exact numbers to work from.  From what I gather, a 100% increase to recast or cast speed doesn't make the spell instant cast or instant reuse, it halves the speed or recast, so a 12% reduction in recast should only boost dps by 6%.  I used the following as reference:Consider that in this example Ice Nova hits for 5,000 every time.-The raw spell is 4.0 cast, 45.0 recast which means you can cast it every 49 seconds at 5,000 damage.  5000/49 = 102.04 DPS.-Factoring in JUST the 14.4% faster cast speed (which should equate to a 7.2% actual reduction) it would be: 3.7 cast, 45.0 recast.  5000/48.7 = 102.67 DPS or an increase of a mere .6% DPS.-Factoring in JUST the 12% faster reuse (again, a hard 6% actual reduction) you get: 4.0 cast, 42.3 recast.  5000/46.3 = 107.99 DPS or an increase of 5.8% DPS.-Factoring in BOTH you get: 5000/46 = 108.7 DPS or a total increase of 6.5% DPS.I'm not 100% sure if those hasted numbers are correct so I'll have to check them when I get home unless someone can confirm or refute if before I leave.  If those are correct, however, that is a shoddy DPS increase for using that many AA points, and would make the 8% increase across the board a much better choice.  If my math is off, feel free to correct me, but even if this is how it works, the spell haste is definately a boon on PvP servers due to the slight edge you get on other casters.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:05 PM</span>

[Fews]

Razer, The main point I was communicating is that an increase in recast can actualy give zero increase in DPS depending on cast speeds and spell sequencing. In reality, it would give some increase but not anything near what would appear to be the case if you look at one spell by itself.FewsonLevel 70 Wizzy - Dark Horizon - Hardcore Raiding guild<p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:08 PM</span>

[Fews]

Razar, Another way to look at it is to fill in the timeslots for a 48 sec fight. With and without recast bonus.then take whatever extra dps was done due to recast bonus/48 and that is what extra DPS you achieved.The question then is, what is the optimal 48 sec sequence with the recast bonus and without...and what is the difference in the DPS between them. That % is the true % gain from a recast bonus.But recast bonus usually bring a lot less bang for the buck than other enhancement..now casting speed bonuses rock.

[Ultimatum]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Fewson wrote:Razer, The main point I was communicating is that an increase in recast can actualy give zero increase in DPS depending on cast speeds and spell sequencing. In reality, it would give some increase but not anything near what would appear to be the case if you look at one spell by itself.FewsonLevel 70 Wizzy - Dark Horizon - Hardcore Raiding guild<p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class="date_text">09-26-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:08 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I agree 100% and understand the point you are making <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'm just really bored and wanted to iterate hard numbers in the most optimum scenario to see, if just for my benefit, what the potential dps increase could be given perfect spell casting where you can fire off every spell as it refreshes (which I realize is pretty much impossible lol)  What it looks like to me is that the spell haste AA takes 8 more points to max out than the 8% hard increase, and the DPS increase is trivial at best due to the fact you just said of not changing your casting much...the 8% raw increase should literally give you an 8% overall boost to dps if you keep the same cast sequence, whereas the spell haste line is much harder to control due to still having to wait on refreshes.<div><blockquote><hr>Fewson wrote:Razar, Another way to look at it is to fill in the timeslots for a 48 sec fight. With and without recast bonus.then take whatever extra dps was done due to recast bonus/48 and that is what extra DPS you achieved.The question then is, what is the optimal 48 sec sequence with the recast bonus and without...and what is the difference in the DPS between them. That % is the true % gain from a recast bonus.But recast bonus usually bring a lot less bang for the buck than other enhancement..now casting speed bonuses rock.<hr></blockquote></div>Excelent point...though I'm much too lazy to try and work ot all the math associated with filling in a set time and deriving the gained DPS...All I care about is I'm happy with the AA line and that's that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I also realize that no matter how many equations anyone comes up with to exact a theoretical DPS increase, the actual in-game utilization is always going to be off anyway hehe.  I also agree with you that AGI is a much mose consistent choice than the STR line.</div><p>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[Fews]

Yep. It is kinda tricky. Hopefully some wizards won't read the boards and not figure it all out. One of the ways to differentiate. For those that do, they get some extra insight through these discussions.I recently tried a STR+AGI build for a few days and lost 200 DPS in zone wide parse from last run of same instance.Went back to AGI+WIS (And I don't take the recast AA). Given that I have a good deal of procing gear it(AGI+WIS) is probably the best build for me. But once the sub-class AA line comes out...who knows.<p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:28 PM</span><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:29 PM</span>

[Lakespookie]

<P>while the AGI/STR line isnt the best for everyone i fint that the only way to make great numbers is to experiment i'm alway in the top three and usually at the top of my raid parse and we can hit from 18500 dps consistently with our good group on an off night we hover around 14000-16000 when i have an illu/i maintain 1500 very easily with my set up which i posted earlier it all depends on raid setup/ speel casting order i find that i get 1 additional fusion in a normal x4 named fight with the agi line and i have it fusion for 20k+ even without freehand... </P> <P>i chose this line for 2 reasons </P> <P>1 wizzy equals spike dps, spike dps means dead wizard, while all the popular lines are pretty close when it comes to dps at the end agi/str agi/wiz str/wiz i find that by minimizing my spike dps and getting a more consistent dps flow i can manage aggro better not to mention that both of my deagroos cease and concusion are available alot sooner = 2500-3000 agro reduction more often </P> <P>2 i can feed and canibalize more often than someone who did not go the agi line now for agi/wiz wizard this dosent apply, did i mention that more spells=more chances to proc items.</P> <P>like i men tioned before this only makes you more of a power hog which is fine for me im currently soft and hardcaped on FT but this isnt for everyone and i will not maintain the sustaind dps that a wiz/str wizzy will maintian over a prolonged perieod but then again how many of the t7 x4 raid fights last longer than 5 minutes i can think of only 2... </P> <P> </P> <P>that being said it always comes down to play style and what you can make work for you...</P><p>Message Edited by Lakespookie on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:55 PM</span>