Accord line update = broken, well at least with Amends it is

[Benholio]

Logged in today and started playing with my normal trio, which is 70 Temp, 70 Pally, 70 Wizard.  I always have Amends (Adept 3) on and pretty much never get aggro.  I can lead with Ice Nova when the mob arrives, and continue chain nuking, no problem.  Well, today, with the updated accord line buff cast, I was getting aggro constantly.  After 3 or 4 fights in a row getting aggro, I dropped the accord line buff, then had Amends re-cast, and everything was fine.  To test it, 4 or 5 fights later I recast Accord line buff, and right away started getting aggro again.So apparently the updated version either blocks Amends, or is so screwed up that it creates enough aggro to overpower the Amends effect.<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Benholio wrote:<BR>Logged in today and started playing with my normal trio, which is 70 Temp, 70 Pally, 70 Wizard.  I always have Amends (Adept 3) on and pretty much never get aggro.  I can lead with Ice Nova when the mob arrives, and continue chain nuking, no problem.  Well, today, with the updated accord line buff cast, I was getting aggro constantly.  After 3 or 4 fights in a row getting aggro, I dropped the accord line buff, then had Amends re-cast, and everything was fine.  To test it, 4 or 5 fights later I recast Accord line buff, and right away started getting aggro again.<BR><BR>So apparently the updated version either blocks Amends, or is so screwed up that it creates enough aggro to overpower the Amends effect.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>thats pretty poor implimenation, why is stuff put on test again devs?

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>w00t just what i wanted to hear, that not only does the 3% suck totally, but its bugged and doesnt work with other agro transfers...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/waves a white flag</DIV> <DIV>we surrender SOE, you won, now fix our class!<BR></DIV>

[Admh]

    oh and yea... btw, if you have sorcs and scouts on raids and have a few fighter classes. This spell pretty much render's us useless cuz it doesn't stack with other scout's transfer <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> imo, i'd rather have them use theirs cuz it's actually worth saving someone's life who can dish out a hell of a lot more dps than we do. Remember we're dispensable, pocket rockets..<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HomeChicken wrote:<BR> <DIV>w00t just what i wanted to hear, that not only does the 3% suck totally, but its bugged and doesnt work with other agro transfers...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/waves a white flag</DIV> <DIV>we surrender SOE, you won, now fix our class!<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>rofl.  I can hear the trumpets going.

[SalBlu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Admhel wrote:<BR>    oh and yea... btw, if you have sorcs and scouts on raids and have a few fighter classes. This spell pretty much render's us useless cuz it doesn't stack with other scout's transfer <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> imo, i'd rather have them use theirs cuz it's actually worth saving someone's life who can dish out a hell of a lot more dps than we do. Remember we're dispensable, pocket rockets..<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Geezus... is that true?  I knew there was stacking issues with other Sorcerors, but I had no idea that we werent able to stack with Scouts.  That's not even the same class OR the same transfer.</P> <P>Rediculous.</P>

[Griffinhart]

I group with a 70 paly as well. Amends seemed to be working just fine. I only occasionally got agro (ok a bit more than usual, but for other reasons I think) and the time he forgot to hit me with it after he died the difference was immediately evident.Consider the other changes being the culprit. Last night in HoF I saw a massive difference in the amount of damage Ice Nova was doing.The difference was not trivial. 14K+ hits at adept3.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griffinhart wrote:<BR>I group with a 70 paly as well. Amends seemed to be working just fine. I only occasionally got agro (ok a bit more than usual, but for other reasons I think) and the time he forgot to hit me with it after he died the difference was immediately evident.<BR><BR>Consider the other changes being the culprit. Last night in HoF I saw a massive difference in the amount of damage Ice Nova was doing.The difference was not trivial. 14K+ hits at adept3.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>that doesn't matter since amends is scaled on a %, your still giving the paly the same % of hate.  I have never pulled agro from a good paly with amends on me on a single target.

[Wossname]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Griffinhart wrote:I group with a 70 paly as well. Amends seemed to be working just fine. I only occasionally got agro (ok a bit more than usual, but for other reasons I think) and the time he forgot to hit me with it after he died the difference was immediately evident.Consider the other changes being the culprit. Last night in HoF I saw a massive difference in the amount of damage Ice Nova was doing.The difference was not trivial. 14K+ hits at adept3.<hr></blockquote>I group regularly with a Swashie and a Paladin. Amends is known to be, um let's be kind, <i>quirky</i>. The Swarthy line and the Amends line can be made to co-operate but Amends must be cast first. If Swarthy is cast first then agro wierdness ensues. The problems only seem to occur if the Swashie puts Swarthy on the Paladin and then Amends is cast on the Swashie. Most hate-transfers are thought to have poor interaction with Amends, perhaps check the Paladin boards for more discussion. My suspicion is that Accord behaves the same as the Swarthy line and thus may or may not work as expected depending on circumstance. This is really a moot point atm since 3% hate transfer is a savage insult compared to what things like Swarthy do.I should point out that up until now the problem hasn't really affected us as Amends is cast on me and Swarthy is cast on the Paladin.</div>

[Griffinhart]

Well, I was grouped with my paly friend for several hours last night and didn't see a difference. not sure what else I can tell ya.Btw, I wish the spell gave 3%. It's only 2% at adept 3. (and app4 for that matter)

[Benholio]

<div></div>I know my testing wasn't definitive, but I don't know of any other explanation.  I could fight 5 encounters w/o the new buff, and not get aggro (leading with ice nova every time), then 5 encounters WITH the new buff and get aggro all 5 times.  These are encounters (in the Den) that I have fought many times in the last few weeks with the same groupmates/buffs/spell sequences.I will try to test it some more tonight to see if I get the same results.  FWIW I -am- hitting harder with the big spells when I debuff resists, but I was not doing that at all against these encounters, and I could open for 10-11k without the new buff with no problem, and then in the next fight only hit for 8k with the new buff and get aggro.It is just too much to be coincidence.<div></div>edit: Looks like the Pallys are noticing this over at the Pally forum, too: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=28580<p>Message Edited by Benholio on <span class=date_text>09-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:46 PM</span>

[TheBu]

<DIV>Yea ther been a history of agro transfer spells not stacking very welll..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Admh]

    lol i can't stack with a warlocks and assassins.. We roll about 2-4 fighters in a raid. finding one is a bit tedious. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Walker76]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>that doesn't matter since amends is scaled on a %, your still giving the paly the same % of hate.  I have never pulled agro from a good paly with amends on me on a single target.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This isn't entirely true.  If you previously cast Ice Nova at 14,000, Amends at 39% would give the pally 5,460 hate.  To reach the 50.00000001% mark the pally would have to taunt, damage, etc. for 1,541 to hold aggro.  If Nova is now hitting for say 18,000, Amends is giving 7,020 but the Pally will have to taunt 1,981 to hold aggro.  </P> <P>Not a staggering difference, but applied over all the spells cast, and along with the hate over time function of pally taunts and considering a min-max range on the pally taunts, this could be having some effect on aggro holding abilities.</P> <P>Having said that, and knowing the way that Amends has interacted with hate transfers in the past, not to mention Sigil of Heroism, I would put more blame on Accord overriding and/or breaking Amends.  But there could be some combined effect of the increased Wiz damage working into this as well.</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Walker76 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>that doesn't matter since amends is scaled on a %, your still giving the paly the same % of hate.  I have never pulled agro from a good paly with amends on me on a single target.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This isn't entirely true.  If you previously cast Ice Nova at 14,000, Amends at 39% would give the pally 5,460 hate.  To reach the 50.00000001% mark the pally would have to taunt, damage, etc. for 1,541 to hold aggro.  If Nova is now hitting for say 18,000, Amends is giving 7,020 but the Pally will have to taunt 1,981 to hold aggro.  </P> <P>Not a staggering difference, but applied over all the spells cast, and along with the hate over time function of pally taunts and considering a min-max range on the pally taunts, this could be having some effect on aggro holding abilities.</P> <P>Having said that, and knowing the way that Amends has interacted with hate transfers in the past, not to mention Sigil of Heroism, I would put more blame on Accord overriding and/or breaking Amends.  But there could be some combined effect of the increased Wiz damage working into this as well.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>dont forget to factor in that the paly is <EM>also</EM> doing more dps from the ninja boost to debuff bonuses.  therefore his dps goes up or at least should scale the same way ours is now doing, so it should even out.</P> <P>but I agree amends and ammolism are not stacking properly.</P> <P>and since we know that taunts are not affected by debuff amounts fighters that have the most taunts got a ninja nerf, and classes like sk's got a ninja boost in dps.</P> <P>I wonder if the ninja debuff boost amount also applies to mele, like reducing a mobs ac, instead of spell resistances.</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>09-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 AM</span>

[Griffinhart]

Well, 3 hours in POA yesterday with a Paly tank. For the first half I had accord on him, the second I didn't. The only time I gained agro was when I hit a mob with Ball of fire, Ice Nova and Fusion back to back early on. And that was without accord. I'm just not seeing a bug here.

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Griffinhart wrote:Well, 3 hours in POA yesterday with a Paly tank. For the first half I had accord on him, the second I didn't. The only time I gained agro was when I hit a mob with Ball of fire, Ice Nova and Fusion back to back early on. And that was without accord. I'm just not seeing a bug here.<hr></blockquote>Hate transfers have always been weird, I've got a 70 swashy and my rule was if I was in a group with a paladin I just didn't use my hate transfer at all. It wasn't worth the potential of screwing things up, and amends on a big damage dealer is usually enough. Some people claimed that you just had to stack them in a certain order or something like that. If you're having trouble with the wizard one you might want to play around with stacking order.</div>

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Griffinhart wrote:<BR>Well, 3 hours in POA yesterday with a Paly tank. For the first half I had accord on him, the second I didn't. The only time I gained agro was when I hit a mob with Ball of fire, Ice Nova and Fusion back to back early on. And that was without accord. I'm just not seeing a bug here.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hate transfers have always been weird, I've got a 70 swashy and my rule was if I was in a group with a paladin I just didn't use my hate transfer at all. It wasn't worth the potential of screwing things up, and amends on a big damage dealer is usually enough. Some people claimed that you just had to stack them in a certain order or something like that. If you're having trouble with the wizard one you might want to play around with stacking order.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ive usually always told pallies to put their amend on anyone else but me, if they got no better target even a healer is better as they then get their own hate, hate from me, and hate from whomever they have amends on. This stacking issue has been beaten to pulp on the forums forever and devs have never made a single comment on it, with the new sorc line only usable on fighters maybe they will finally adress the issues of hate stacking.</P> <P>At 3% it should stack with anything, be it amend or other sorcs deaggro and I wouldnt be surpriced if they actually are suposed to, as EQ2 in general and hate transfer in special has always been buggy on how it stacks. </P> <P> </P>

[Zyphius]

Until it's fixed, you can just place it on another fighter that has a much lower chance of getting agro... That way you give them 2(or 3)% of your hate so you can do slightly more damage before pulling aggro. It just ups their hate a little, but if they aren't in any danger to pull aggro, a little more hate isn't going to hurt them (and would actually help them grab aggro faster if they are a backup tank and the MT goes down).