Raiding wizard, what kind of group are u placed in?

[justright]

<div></div>In my whole raiding experience raidleaders have never used wizards than anything more than pure dps (and occasionaly called for powerfeed). Often im put in a mage dps group with a healer. When i look at our spells i see some i think would be great contibutions besides than our pure dd/ae spells like:AnomalismFrigid GiftIceshieldPhoenixblade  Voice of the TyrantFortifyIm not saying what group wizards should/shouldnt be in. Just thinking we could contribute more. Im curious how other guilds use their wizards in raids. Feedback welcomed.<div></div><p>Message Edited by justright on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 AM</span>

[Psychochimpy]

<div></div>Tonight it was something like 2xNecro, 2x Wizard, Fury, Inquisitor (Donno why we had 2 healers..)Ya, it's frustrating to not be able to use our in group only buffs, but what can I say, they just plain suck imo <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Psychochimpy on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:18 AM</span>

[meedni]

<font color="#ff0000"><font size="5"><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="4">Usualy I have 3 scouts (troubie, assass & brigand) in my group so phoenixblade gets it's workout but I would like to see it and Anomalism raidwide.Icesheild can be cast on any raid member and I have it constantly on the main tank every fight which help s the dps kicking.Frigid Gift is a group wide ST buff that procs Ice Lash on every spell cast during that 12secs so if ur in a mage dps group that's really usefull. I have it set with a macro letting the group know it's been casted so it's more effective.I'm on raids to purely do dps and some power feeding and that's what i think wizzy's are for. Correct me someone if I'm wrong here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></font></b></font></font><div></div>

[Aeg]

<DIV>my common setup is coercer, 2 necros, wizard (me), troub, fury. phoenix on the 2 necro pets and the troub. all dehates to me.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> justright wrote:<BR> In my whole raiding experience raidleaders have never used wizards than anything more than pure dps (and occasionaly called for powerfeed). Often im put in a mage dps group with a healer. When i look at our spells i see some i think would be great contibutions besides than our pure dd/ae spells like:<BR>Anomalism<BR>Frigid Gift<BR>Iceshield<BR>Phoenixblade  <BR>Voice of the Tyrant<BR>Fortify<BR><BR>Im not saying what group wizards should/shouldnt be in. Just thinking we could contribute more. <BR><BR>Im curious how other guilds use their wizards in raids. Feedback welcomed. <P>Message Edited by justright on <SPAN class=date_text>08-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you definately need a troubador to soak up some hate, if not you need a paly with amends, or at the very least a guardian with moderate on you.</P> <P>your not even working at half capacity with 0 hate reduction.  its the worst set up for a sorceror.</P>

[TheBu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> justright wrote:<BR> <BR>Im not saying what group wizards should/shouldnt be in. Just thinking we could contribute more. <BR><BR>Im curious how other guilds use their wizards in raids. Feedback welcomed. <P>Message Edited by justright on <SPAN class=date_text>08-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yup no doupt we can help a melay classes.. </P> <P>Voice of the Tyrant works well for mages, fighters and scouts.</P> <P>As far as what groups i am normally in.. . well i should say no comment.  some times they just throw me in with all the other casters and a mana regener and a fury if i am lucky.</P> <P>I perfer a pally, troubador and fury.  They scratch my back i scratch theirs. Purhaps round it out with a conj and warlock.</P> <P> </P>

[MystManPDX]

<DIV>Its sounds like you probably need to communicate better with your guild/raid leaders who organize the raids.  This is something I've had to overcome in my own guild.  If you are being placed into a mage only group with maybe a healer, the raid leader has no clue how to stagger the classes correctly.  So, lets just establish some basic gaming concepts first.   Assuming SOE really did want to make sure skill traits were balanced across the main archtypes, lets just go through all 4 with some basic understandings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healers:</DIV> <DIV>They heal and thats primarily most of their skill traits.</DIV> <DIV>They have awesome mitigation buffs and wards.</DIV> <DIV>They also DPS, some better then others, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fighters:</DIV> <DIV>They take the grunt of the damage, because they've been given uber armor, mitigations and avoidances.</DIV> <DIV>They can taunt and actually gain more hate without causing damage.</DIV> <DIV>They can DPS, large amounts of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts:</DIV> <DIV>They (imho) are probably the most versitle of toons, but they're primarily for DPS... and huge amounts of it.</DIV> <DIV>They can track, safefall, debuff huge amounts from the mobs, stun and stiffle, disarm traps, etc.  A big raid without several scouts is going to fail.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mages:</DIV> <DIV>Another versitle toon, but primarily all they do is DPS.  </DIV> <DIV>Ya we can invis, debuff some and send out power.  But all in all... mages blow [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up... and thats why we have cloth armor, because the other classes are suppose to protect us... because we dish out the damage.</DIV> <DIV>The pet casters have the luxury of sharing their hate gain with their pet, as long as the pet doesnt die, they wont die from aggro.  And boy do they dish out the DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, now we get to your issue.  Most wizzies buffs are all Group AE except phoenixblade and the reactives (iceshield and frigid gift), and alot of them especially fortify elements and voice of tyrant make huge contributions to your grp.  Idealy, you should not be in the same grp group with another wizard, just like a group with 3-4 guardians or zerkers really arent gunna do much for eachother.  But you throw a wiz in their group, you're going to increase their heat and cold mitigation by almost 1K and their STR and INT up 85 points.  And to some point, your raid leader is right... you should only be used as DPS, thats what a wiz does.  But, their buffs are just as important to the overall grp as other classes as long as they're staggered correctly.  Now if you dont really care about buffs and just want to go hardcore dps... then your raid leader really needs to not have you grped with a bunch of other mages but with a tank or a scout.  Guardians have Moderate which (master 1) can reduce your hate gain by 38%!  Paladins can put Amends on you which transfers your hate to them.  Your MT group should have a dirge in it to keep hate gained on your tanks.  Then if you really want to go crazy, put a troubador in your group and have them play their anti-hate song, mana generator and their haste.  You'll be able to cast as fast as you can and not die from aggro and your power pool will stay (mostly) replenished to keep feeding your spells.  Coercers and Illusionists actually are versitle so that they can be put in the MT or the DPS groups and give benefits to either.  Coercers have hate buffs and are huge batteries for mana to the group.  Illusionists are batteries too and they can give anti-hate to your casters (synergism).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, what I'm getting at here, is your raid leader (im assuming they're a fighter class, because most tend to only support the other figher classes and think mages are just weak flimsy damage dealers) needs to know that mages are going to be able to kick up more DPS than any fighter out there as long as they have the proper supporting classes grped with them.  Your raid leader might say the same thing for the fighter in your position if they were supported, but they're wrong.  A wiz will always be able to out DPS any fighter class because that's what we're designed to do.  If your raid leader truely understands that DPS is one of the most crutical aspects to taking down a big epic mob, they will give you the supporting classes you need.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Figo</DIV> <P>Message Edited by MystManPDX on <SPAN class=date_text>08-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:36 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by MystManPDX on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:37 PM</span>

[Bi]

wizards should be in a group with a couple of scouts to make the most of their group buffs, and single target procs. any raid leader who isnt doing this isnt making the most of their raid force. There is a great thread in gameplay (i tihnk) about group makeup, it is a VERY good example of what groups should be like, many members of top guilds giving good suggestions. wizards not only bring their own dps to a raid, but also boost others. We have 2 mages with 3 scouts and a healer - wiz conj/war, troub pred/rogue pred/rogue inq. fury's are great for the +power, Illu can probably elaborate more on wizard consumption - when my wiz raids we are at a real loose end as he is my 3rd toon. btw thanks for master fiendish villainy meednite <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />D Caedes, Assassin Melfin, Fury Bibe, Wizard Allure - Najena (I also have a 50 monk and 50 troub, but they are largely unplayed :< ) <div></div>

[Bi]

<div></div><div>you should only be used as DPS, thats what a wiz does.  But, their buffs are just as important to the overall grp as other classes as long as they're staggered correctly. <font color="#ffff00">the second statement is much better than the first <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font>  Now if you dont really care about buffs and just want to go hardcore dps... then your raid leader really needs to not have you grped with a bunch of other mages but with a tank or a scout.  Guardians have Moderate which (master 1) can reduce your hate gain by 38%!  Paladins can put Amends on you which transfers your hate to them. <font color="#ffff00">Not sure why your guild is taking spare guardians and paladins to a raid :< you should talk to your raid leader about this, they are essentially a burden if they are not tanking. </font> Your MT group should have a dirge in it to keep hate gained on your tanks.  <font color="#ffff00">only if a coercer isnt available, they get crazy power feeds, as well as a better hate % buff than a dirge. </font>Then if you really want to go crazy, put a troubador in your group and have them play their anti-hate song, mana generator and their haste. <font color="#ffff00">I think your guild is crazy to NOT have a troub in your group. Wizards, assassins and brigands are nearly always in the troub's group to make sure they can do extreme dps, and not worry (too much) about agro. Haste only effects your autoattack. Im not sure how many wizards are autoattacking raid mobs; but by + large I fear my repair bill more than a little bit extra DPS. </font>Coercers and Illusionists actually are versitle so that they can be put in the MT or the DPS groups and give benefits to either.  Coercers have hate buffs and are huge batteries for mana to the group.  Illusionists are batteries too and they can give anti-hate to your casters (synergism). <font color="#ffff00">If you have a coercer, they shoudl be in mt group before the dirge, dirges are far more versatile buffers (imo) You are right about illu's tho </font> </div> <div>Basically, what I'm getting at here, is your raid leader (im assuming they're a fighter class, because most tend to only support the other figher classes and think mages are just weak flimsy damage dealers) needs to know that mages are going to be able to kick up more DPS than any fighter out there as long as they have the proper supporting classes grped with them.  Your raid leader might say the same thing for the fighter in your position if they were supported, but they're wrong.  A wiz will always be able to out DPS any fighter class because that's what we're designed to do.  If your raid leader truely understands that DPS is one of the most crutical aspects to taking down a big epic mob, they will give you the supporting classes you need.   </div> <div> <font color="#ffff00">Although I agree with your contention the facts are a little skewed. Zerkers can consistantly do 1k+ dps (if they know what they are doing) and bruisers can hold their own if they are given the proper support group as well; not saying wizards can/should never outdps these classes, just that they might not always do this. But you are right - if your raid leader isnt giving your wizards the proper support (hate reduction for you, and hate gain for tank, power regen, proc damage) then you should ask them to move over.  Ask Illu who was in his group when he was parsing 1.3 zonewide in lyceum - granted some of lyceum lends itself to wizards; but Illu is still in a speciality group*. In much the same way ask Skratch(assassin) who he is grouped with when he's parsing 1.8k+ and its in a tailormade group. The real difficulty for a raid leader is to ensure that groups are balanced to maximise dps output, rather than to buff a star player. *edit: maybe not for the specific player, but for the group in general </font></div> <div></div><p>Message Edited by bieb on <span class=date_text>08-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:25 AM</span>

[n0kn0k]

Troub, fury, necro, conj, whizzy, whizzy.So i got deaggro on me, and 3 fire procs loaded up on the troub and pets.Sometimes i end up in a pure scoutgroup. Loads of procs to hand out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Got time to watch TV then though if there ain't a troub in that group.<div></div>

[Cowtothes]

<P>A brigand in the raid is a MUST HAVE. Lately, our raid force has lost our brigand and my dps has been dramatically affected. I was doing an average of 1200 - 2k dps, and now can only muster up 1k or so. So, make sure there is a brigand dropping those debuffs.</P> <P>edit to get back on topic with our average raid dps group:</P> <P>Troub - wiz - wiz - warlock - conj - nec</P><p>Message Edited by Cowtothesky on <span class=date_text>08-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 AM</span>

[Dremma]

<div></div>My raid group is usually Wiz, Wiz, Conj, Troub, Illus, Fury - Sometimes a Pally for amends is thrown in one of us Wiz's or the Conj is missing that day.<div></div>

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>really depends on who we got, but normally its like me conjy fury or inq troub warlock or another wizard, and either a scout (assassin / brigand / swashy) or a brawler for proc lovin or if im really lucky a pally for amends hehe</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bieb wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Not sure why your guild is taking spare guardians and paladins to a raid :< you should talk to your raid leader about this, they are essentially a burden if they are not tanking.<BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>I think your guild is crazy to NOT have a troub in your group. Wizards, assassins and brigands are nearly always in the troub's group to make sure they can do extreme dps, and not worry (too much) about agro.<BR>Haste only effects your autoattack. Im not sure how many wizards are autoattacking raid mobs; but by + large I fear my repair bill more than a little bit extra DPS.<BR><BR></FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00> Ask Illu who was in his group when he was parsing 1.3 zonewide in lyceum - granted some of lyceum lends itself to wizards; but Illu is still in a speciality group*. In much the same way ask Skratch(assassin) who he is grouped with when he's parsing 1.8k+ and its in a tailormade group.<BR>The real difficulty for a raid leader is to ensure that groups are balanced to maximise dps output, rather than to buff a star player.<BR>*edit: maybe not for the specific player, but for the group in general<BR></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by bieb on <SPAN class=date_text>08-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:25 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>an extra paly or guardian isn't always a burden.  moderate and amends either reduce hate or transfer hate from all classes (including other fighters) which makes it great for putting on a monk/bruiser/zerker who can do 2k dps on some encounters, in order to keep him from taking agro, or on a wizard / warlock (who may need it more)</P> <P>I'm pretty sure he was referring to allegro which is spell haste group based ae from the troubador, not the actual mele haste group buff that they get.</P> <P><BR>I think scratch just needs a troubador to max his dps, anything else is just a bonus.  Where as wizards need more hate reduction buffs (harmonious link, moderate, or amends)</P>

[suroktheslayer5]

Pally with amends on me, troub or corcer for mana regen, a healer, some other tank or dps. <div></div>

[GunnaGetSome]

<P>We usually have only 9 people to raid, and typically go for labs trash and AoA x2.  Have a few that raid more casually due to playtime contraints.</P> <P>Group 1- Pally (MT), Zerker, Templar, Mystic, Dirge, Brigand(or Conjuror)</P> <P>Group 2- Troub, Necro, Wizard (me), Necro #2 (when avail), Swashy (when avail)</P> <P>Available at times, but not there in general: wizard #2, guard, fury</P> <P> </P> <P>Always looking for new raiders or experienced raiders that want to be part of an awesome guild <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  PST  to Elruess if your on butcherblock server <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Never hurts to get a lil plug in there for the team <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thx much! Hope it's useful info <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[UUCyberSte]

In our guild it's typically:Wizzy, Necro, Worlock, <some other mage DPS>, an extra tank, a healer (typically a Fury).Yeah sub-optimal, but we survive... barely... sometimes...We are not used for anything but raw DPS and a rare mana pump.  ZZzzz, - Frostwynn<div></div>

[Faheuc]

2 wizzy (1 me), 1 troub, 1 fury, 1 ranger (dunno why, probably because we short on mage classes in my guild) and either warlock or someone else who gets tossed in...

[Nethis]

<div><blockquote><hr>Purtan wrote:<font color="#ff0000"><font size="5"><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="4">Icesheild can be cast on any raid member and I have it constantly on the main tank every fight which help s the dps kicking.</font></font></b></font></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry but I'm going off on a little tangent.Is there a good way to use Iceshield in a raid situation?  I hate having to switch between MA and MT so most of the time, I only use it once in a fight, pre-pull.  Is it possible to make a macro to:target MTice shieldtarget back to MAThanks.</div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nethis wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Purtan wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT size=5><B><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT size=4>Icesheild can be cast on any raid member and I have it constantly on the main tank every fight which help s the dps kicking.<BR></FONT></FONT></B></FONT></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry but I'm going off on a little tangent.<BR><BR>Is there a good way to use Iceshield in a raid situation?  I hate having to switch between MA and MT so most of the time, I only use it once in a fight, pre-pull.  Is it possible to make a macro to:<BR><BR>target MT<BR>ice shield<BR>target back to MA<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I just say f' it and kill what the MT has targeted and ice sheild the MT.  theres only a few encounters where you may need to assist an ma to focus the raids dps on a single mob.

[meedni]

<b><font size="4"><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font color="#ff0000">Do u assist the MA directly or use an assist macro? ( /assist <MA name> ) usualy the mob is on the MT and Icesheild gets on the right target without to much stuffin around.</font></font></font></b><div></div>

[Boli32]

From a healer's perspective I've been thrown into a group with 3 wizzies 1 conjurer 1 necro and myself (fury) in the hope we'll be an 'ubber dps group' It took a lot of shouting and general complaining to get it sorted as I was generlaly spent all of my time rezing the one shotted and agro pulling casters.. hardly an efficient use of power for anyone involved. What I have found in making DPS groups is a simple formulae all bestTankHealerCasters x 2Scouts x 2all different classes, 1 chanter/bard in the mixThat generally offers the most best use of buffs for all concerned. Its by no means flawless.. I can think of a few combinations that will be less than ideal but if you (as wizzies) find yourself in a similar looking group I think you'll be as happy as the healer stuck in the middle with orders to 'keep that unruely lot alive'<div></div>

[Tanit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nethis wrote:<div>Is there a good way to use Iceshield in a raid situation?  I hate having to switch between MA and MT so most of the time, I only use it once in a fight, pre-pull.  Is it possible to make a macro to:target MTice shieldtarget back to MA</div><hr></blockquote>I use an /assist <MA> macro, so i always have the right mob targetted.If you dont want that you might be able to/target <MT>/usea Iceshield/target <MA><div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote:<BR>From a healer's perspective I've been thrown into a group with 3 wizzies 1 conjurer 1 necro and myself (fury) in the hope we'll be an 'ubber dps group' It took a lot of shouting and general complaining to get it sorted as I was generlaly spent all of my time rezing the one shotted and agro pulling casters.. hardly an efficient use of power for anyone involved. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>theres no hate reduction for that group, its doomed for failure from the start.  I suggest you consult the raid leader and get some hate reduction in there for the mages. (troub would work best for all parties involved)</P> <P>and put harmonious link on the rest of the people in the group (cross raid castable) and call it done.</P> <P>wizards/warlocks benefit greatly from VIM,  at m1 it will give me more than 1k power and (depending on your int) about 400-500 extra damage on my big nukes (i/n fusion) and up to 200 more on ball of lava.  Its a large enough difference that it is considered a dps buff for a mage now, so consider dropping your other group buffs to be able to put it on as many people as you can.<BR></P>

[Boli32]

<blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> boli wrote:From a healer's perspective I've been thrown into a group with 3 wizzies 1 conjurer 1 necro and myself (fury) in the hope we'll be an 'ubber dps group' It took a lot of shouting and general complaining to get it sorted as I was generlaly spent all of my time rezing the one shotted and agro pulling casters.. hardly an efficient use of power for anyone involved. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>theres no hate reduction for that group, its doomed for failure from the start.  I suggest you consult the raid leader and get some hate reduction in there for the mages. (troub would work best for all parties involved)</p> <p>and put harmonious link on the rest of the people in the group (cross raid castable) and call it done.</p> <p>wizards/warlocks benefit greatly from VIM,  at m1 it will give me more than 1k power and (depending on your int) about 400-500 extra damage on my big nukes (i/n fusion) and up to 200 more on ball of lava.  Its a large enough difference that it is considered a dps buff for a mage now, so consider dropping your other group buffs to be able to put it on as many people as you can.</p><hr></blockquote>Belive me I knew... you know... and it took a LOT of complaining to get it sorted... in the end I made such a nuicence of myself he gave in and made me raid leader <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... 1-0 for annoying furys on pickup raids. incidentlaly took 5min to sort out the mess and get back on track <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> just making the point that 'caster groups' just... don't work... a mix if generally best  - even tanks as they comes with hate transfering/reducing stuff and otehr goodies that help keep you alive longer<div></div>