DPS Achievements other than Wis?

[Pyrefor]

<DIV>I recently got a Staff of Spectral Fury on a lucky loot roll.  I'm unlikely to get a better weapon anytime soon and would really like to explore respeccing out of Wisdom so I can use it and still get some use out of my Achievements.  I know the current thought is that the +8% to base damage + freehand blows everything out of the water, but with your help I'd like to briefly explore just how much better it really is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - what is the add to crit % at level 8 of Spell Expertise?  Theoretically, we could directly compare that to brainstorm by dividing by 3 (crit does 33% more damage right?) and over the long term it should equal out right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The same with Spellshaping; assuming one is casting continuously, shouldn't we be able to say that the dps increase is roughly  1 - 1/%speed increase?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, does anyone have any idea what effect increasing disruption has?  If level 8 of Battlemage's Fervor increases disruption by 40 (anyone know the exact figure here?), is that similar to casting a spell as if you were 8 levels higher - it could be a significant dps increase, who knows?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for any insight or help you can provide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lurrthrack Thrackbrood</DIV> <DIV>67 Wizard / 65 provisioner</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV>

[Brockaine2]

Pardon me for being harsh but you can't get Grizzfazzle's wand gimme a break. Wisdom is the ONLY line you should even be considering until it is 4 4 8 then you can consider other lines.

[Pyrefor]

<DIV>Whether the wand is superior to the staff is questionable in my opinion.  Yes it will let you do more damage in a group/raid setting, but since I solo a lot, the +980 resists to 3 stats, plus the nearly 500hp heal proc, plus the FT and other superior stats, it allows me to die less and have more power. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know if I'll get the wand in the next 3-4 months, who knows whether I'll get a group to do so or not, but that's not the point anyway.  The point was to get some more concrete data, since casting speed and crit modifiers should be directly comparable to straight dps increases in theory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides I can always respec back if I do get a better one hand weapon.</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pyreforge wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - what is the add to crit % at level 8 of Spell Expertise?  Theoretically, we could directly compare that to brainstorm by dividing by 3 (crit does 33% more damage right?) and over the long term it should equal out right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The same with Spellshaping; assuming one is casting continuously, shouldn't we be able to say that the dps increase is roughly  1 - 1/%speed increase?<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Critical passive max = 11.7%. Critical is about 50%* increase in damage. Therefore this is about +5.8% in dps.<BR>*I dont make the numbers up. Based on max damage, most of our dd are: 55%-100% (min dmg = 55% of max dmg,) critical = 100%-130%. Average 77.5 : 115 = 1 : 1.48.<BR> <BR>Spell haste 1% =/= +1% dps becasue our main nukes have long recast timer and are not always ready.<BR></DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pyreforge wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - what is the add to crit % at level 8 of Spell Expertise?  Theoretically, we could directly compare that to brainstorm by dividing by 3 (crit does 33% more damage right?) and over the long term it should equal out right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The same with Spellshaping; assuming one is casting continuously, shouldn't we be able to say that the dps increase is roughly  1 - 1/%speed increase?<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Critical passive max = 11.7%. Critical is about 50%* increase in damage. Therefore this is about +5.8% in dps.<BR>*I dont make the numbers up. Based on max damage, most of our dd are: 55%-100% (min dmg = 55% of max dmg,) critical = 100%-130%. Average 77.5 : 115 = 1 : 1.48.<BR> <BR>Spell haste 1% =/= +1% dps becasue our main nukes have long recast timer and are not always ready.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ahh the old debate resurfaces.  I suggest the op read the spell haste thread and other threads which discuss the different aa paths and thier dps potential.  I dont want to beat this dead horse.

[Pyrefor]

<P>Bah there was never a true debate on this.  It was always assumed that the 8% direct increase was the best, and initially all comparisons were done before the changes to the Agility line.  The only real dps comparisons (done by you, illu) were between the current agility line and the strength line.  All scenarios had the wis line included by default (with minor changes to the spending in the line).</P> <P>What I was looking for is the numbers such as QQFatman provided.  So clearly rank 8 of Spell Expertise < rank 8 of Brainstorm, but the difference isn't huge, only about 2.2% of the original dps, so ~2% greater dps comparing one to the other.  Of course you lose freehand also <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Although you get another AE effect and access to a better final option (catalyst)</P> <P>I went and looked through the old threads and found that it was mentioned that spell haste was 14.4%.  Edit - I did bad math.  What does this mean in real world dps?</P> <P>Of course going agi+str you also have the option of getting 2 decent final abilities, spellshifting and catalyst, which is something for me to think about.</P> <P>Considering the attitude around here, I guess I'm not going to get much information on disruption, but I'll just take it for granted that it's not an option. </P> <P>Lurrthrack Thrackbrood</P><p>Message Edited by Pyreforge on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Bad]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> QQFatman wrote: <P>Critical passive max = 11.7%. Critical is about 50%* increase in damage. Therefore this is about +5.8% in dps.<BR>*I dont make the numbers up. Based on max damage, most of our dd are: 55%-100% (min dmg = 55% of max dmg,) critical = 100%-130%. Average 77.5 : 115 = 1 : 1.48.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your math is a little bit off.  While it's true that the range is from 100%-130%, 100% is going to happen more often than anything else because of the way it's calculated.  A crit would actually average to 107.7, giving you an increase of 39%.  The crit AA ends up giving you around 4.6% extra damage.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pyreforge wrote:<BR> <P>Bah there was never a true debate on this.  It was always assumed that the 8% direct increase was the best, and initially all comparisons were done before the changes to the Agility line.  The only real dps comparisons (done by you, illu) were between the current agility line and the strength line.  All scenarios had the wis line included by default (with minor changes to the spending in the line).</P> <P>What I was looking for is the numbers such as QQFatman provided.  So clearly rank 8 of Spell Expertise < rank 8 of Brainstorm, but the difference isn't huge, only about 2.2% of the original dps, so ~2% greater dps comparing one to the other.  Of course you lose freehand also <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Although you get another AE effect and access to a better final option (catalyst)</P> <P>I went and looked through the old threads and found that it was mentioned that spell haste was 14.4%.  Edit - I did bad math.  What does this mean in real world dps?</P> <P>Of course going agi+str you also have the option of getting 2 decent final abilities, spellshifting and catalyst, which is something for me to think about.</P> <P>Considering the attitude around here, I guess I'm not going to get much information on disruption, but I'll just take it for granted that it's not an option. </P> <P>Lurrthrack Thrackbrood</P> <P>Message Edited by Pyreforge on <SPAN class=date_text>07-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:41 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>oh, well you have a point.  I never did a direct comparison against wisdom.</P> <P>I prefer passive dmg and the only real 2 ways we can acheive that through our aa line is through spellshaping and brainstorm.</P> <P>I never liked the crit line, I dont like fate and random luck deciding when I should do good dps and when I should do poor dps.  Str line was streaky, I'd have peaks and valleys far beyond what I have now with wis/agi.  </P> <P>Disruption will reduce your overall resists.  i've also heard there is a thread with a study on the warlock board (back when their int line was altered to the +disruption subjigation, ect) where it was shown to reduce resists, but it also lowered dps.  This was because the game was factoring your disruption/subjigation as a level above lvl 70, I.E. lvl 75 caster level vs lvl 71 mob, which would then require you to have additional intelligence to be at the int cap (even though this wasn't visible) for your casting level.</P> <P>I'm not sure how well it works for duels and pvp as resists on a lvl 70vs 70 fight can get pretty rediculous, I'd be interested in finding out if it would help in this senario. but as far as increasing dps with it you will end up doing just the opposite in order to reduce your resists against yellow + con mobs.</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badge wrote:<BR>Your math is a little bit off.  While it's true that the range is from 100%-130%, 100% is going to happen more often than anything else because of the way it's calculated.  A crit would actually average to 107.7, giving you an increase of 39%.  The crit AA ends up giving you around 4.6% extra damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why 107.7? 100-130 means a random number between 100-130 so the average should be 115, isnt it?<BR>

[Jezekie]

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<p>Disruption will reduce your overall resists.  i've also heard there is a thread with a study on the warlock board (back when their int line was altered to the +disruption subjigation, ect) where it was shown to reduce resists, but it also lowered dps.  This was because the game was factoring your disruption/subjigation as a level above lvl 70, I.E. lvl 75 caster level vs lvl 71 mob, which would then require you to have additional intelligence to be at the int cap (even though this wasn't visible) for your casting level.</p> <p>I'm not sure how well it works for duels and pvp as resists on a lvl 70vs 70 fight can get pretty rediculous, I'd be interested in finding out if it would help in this senario. but as far as increasing dps with it you will end up doing just the opposite in order to reduce your resists against yellow + con mobs.</p><hr></blockquote>I used to have that ability maxed out, it was a waste of points IMO. The Focus increase was barely noticble, and the Disruption increase didn't make any difference at all in PvP, and the PvE difference was unnoticble. It would have required extensive parsing in PvE to determine a difference.</div>

[Bad]

<div><blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Badge wrote:Your math is a little bit off.  While it's true that the range is from 100%-130%, 100% is going to happen more often than anything else because of the way it's calculated.  A crit would actually average to 107.7, giving you an increase of 39%.  The crit AA ends up giving you around 4.6% extra damage. <hr> </blockquote>Why 107.7? 100-130 means a random number between 100-130 so the average should be 115, isnt it?<hr></blockquote>Actually, it takes a random number between 55 and 100 then adds 30% to it.  If the result is less than the max damage, it uses the max damage instead.</div>

[Pyrefor]

<P>Well I respecced from full wis to full agi to try it out (I don't have enough to do a second line yet).  I can say that I like it for grouping - I seem to be able to get more spells in with all those quick fights; I'm running low on mana a lot and I never had that issue with wis - which shows I'm clearly casting more spells.  For soloing and the odd raid that I do it's hard to say, but I'd guess that freehand + brainstorm would definitely be better.  I'm going to go up the strength line for now to try it out, but once I get a better one handed weapon I think I will respec again to wis+agi, because I can't imagine the crit line comparing with wis (especially with the new data provided above) and I am now addicted to the faster casting.</P> <P>Thanks for the info - it also sounds like disruption is pointless at this time.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lurrthrack Thrackbrood</P>