Are We DPS? or is it Assassins [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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eromon

07-13-2006, 09:58 AM

<DIV>was just wondering if we are the DPS class as i was out DPS'd by an assassin in my group. Fury in group said it was due to my long cast times + my spells after taking so long to cast where sometimes resisted. This was in Ruins Of Varsoon and i was around lvl 30 at that time and i think the assassin was as well ( currently im 32) i hope this doesnt last into the endgame as i became a wizard cause i wanted to deal the most damage. If we arent DPS then can some1 plz expalin what role we play in groups especially in Raid Groups please...thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

didi316

07-13-2006, 10:10 AM

we are dps, but not the only class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />there are several tier 1 dps classes (wizard, warlock, assassin, ranger,...) - so don't be surprised to be outdps'd by other classes (conj, necro, bruiser aso are great damage dealers especially in raids too)<div></div>

Didi

07-13-2006, 01:35 PM

<DIV>Yes, there are many DPS classes and we do differently in different situations. I've been watching a damage parser recently while I've been in various pickup groups, and in generally it seems to be that wizards tend to shine in medium length fights. If the fight is very short, we can generally only land one or two spells, so the melee type damage classes outdo us. If we have time to stack on a few dots and a few nukes however, it's a different picture! On very short fights I've even seen monks outdamaging wizards, this is because they can open up with a whole bunch of very fast attacks. They have long refresh times though, so if the fight continues longer, the monks' dps will drop off as they can't sustain it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's all very situational, so just because an assassin or someone else is outdamaging you in one group or one particular situation, don't despair - just around the corner is probably another group where you'll do better than he will. Or perhaps a third class will outdamage you both! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

IllusiveThoughts

07-13-2006, 06:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> eromon84 wrote: <DIV>was just wondering if we are the DPS class as i was out DPS'd by an assassin in my group. Fury in group said it was due to my long cast times + my spells after taking so long to cast where sometimes resisted. This was in Ruins Of Varsoon and i was around lvl 30 at that time and i think the assassin was as well ( currently im 32) i hope this doesnt last into the endgame as i became a wizard cause i wanted to deal the most damage. If we arent DPS then can some1 plz expalin what role we play in groups especially in Raid Groups please...thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Get used to it. If your getting beat by other T1 classes (assasin, ranger, warlock) the trend will continue to the end game unless you personally do something about it. Are you at the int cap for your level? Are all your spells at least at adept 3? If you cant answer yes to the above 2 questions your going to get beat by many other classes, not just T1 classes (summoners, brawlers, rogues, zerkers, ect.)

Brockaine2

07-13-2006, 06:47 PM

Don't be surprised if your pretty low on the dps charts. Wizards can't even really compete until you get a lot of AAs masters and fabled gear. Basically you'll realize damage isn't the issue its agro and power. If your looking to simply be the end all best dps around play an assassin imo.

greenhor

07-13-2006, 07:23 PM

i'd have to agree. Regarding raids, I'm happy with my DPS and in good fights where i don't screw up (ie draw aggro) I can come very close and sometimes even surpass assassins, but if you average a whole night of raiding together I would still probably be maybe 200dps behind the assassin.

Neferka

07-13-2006, 08:11 PM

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, ill preface this by saying im only a 39 wizard... but if not DPs why agin we sacrifice armor and HP? why not give us some HP and armor then if we are to match the scouts and tanks and such? Thats kinda goofy we certainly have minimal utility to speak of... so what am I missing, and oh and for the most part the Hard fights, you dont wanna be using AE damage ( out only sorta unique ability).<div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-13-2006, 08:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neferkare wrote: At the risk of sounding like an idiot, ill preface this by saying im only a 39 wizard... but if not DPs why agin we sacrifice armor and HP? why not give us some HP and armor then if we are to match the scouts and tanks and such? Thats kinda goofy we certainly have minimal utility to speak of... so what am I missing, and oh and for the most part the Hard fights, you dont wanna be using AE damage ( out only sorta unique ability). <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> we can do more dps than any other t1 dps class "most" of the time (sorcerors) wizard reign king on single targets and warlocks on aoes, wizzies/warlocks even out at 2-3 mob encounters and warlocks push ahead at 3+ The problem I see on these boards is people dont define what they are talking about. Soloing wizards are very powerful and assasins have really no way to kill named and heroics unless they kite them with a bow or are green. Grouping mobs die too fast so you'll see classes dps get inflated because mobs just die too fast. Raiding is where we shine, BUT only if we are given the right support. Scouts have their roles and they need chain armor for soloing since they cant root/nuke mobs its a trade off. we win solo, groups are even, raids are dependent on buffs.

Neferka

07-13-2006, 08:25 PM

<div></div>You cleared my concern up quite a bit. I was seriously struggling to find a reason why Im running around in a robe with minimal hp when other classes often can and do more damage or comparable damage in the same amount of time and heal, (Furies) and Scouts which can match us, in short fights, not medium ones and toast us in the long ones.I guess im just looking for that special something we do well? Ive not found it. Solo kill (solo mobs?) Maybe ive not had enough experince soloing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />editoh! ive heard raiding is terrible due to immune and evil high resisting mobs?Not even gonna go there on pvp <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>Message Edited by Neferkare on 07-13-2006 09:26 AM

Neferka

07-13-2006, 08:31 PM

One more thing actually if i may, you mention chain armor as a trade off to rooting... but how often does armor get broken by Dds or is outright resisted?a spell cast does not equal perma passive armor with all the benefits that entails, for instance.A scout is attacked by 2 ungrouped mobs he gets the benefit immediatly.We however are screwed as we have to run around like mad men stunning rooting at this point half dead, to be equal to the scout in this reguard?While if root lands barring casters and ranged mobs root can outright nullify incoming damage.. while chain protect against all types... but wont nullify it... i dont see it as balanced however.. because in practice passive defense is always better than some sorta cast on the fly... oh god they gonna stomp me root thing. (also pointlessw in group pvp I might add)<div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-13-2006, 08:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neferkare wrote: You cleared my concern up quite a bit. I was seriously struggling to find a reason why Im running around in a robe with minimal hp when other classes often can and do more damage or comparable damage in the same amount of time and heal, (Furies) and Scouts which can match us, in short fights, not medium ones and toast us in the long ones. I guess im just looking for that special something we do well? Ive not found it. Solo kill (solo mobs?) Maybe ive not had enough experince soloing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> edit oh! ive heard raiding is terrible due to immune and evil high resisting mobs? Not even gonna go there on pvp <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Message Edited by Neferkare on 07-13-2006 09:26 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> wizards do 2 things very well put out good dps for a short period of time (depending on buffs / gear this duration increases-average is about 1 min full burn, 2min with buffs 3 min optimal, and any fight longer than that your dps will drop due to using health > power conversions, hearts/shards/clicky power regens ect.) and can solo yellow named heroics, with pretty crappy gear/spells. On T7 raids I haven't come across any named mobs that are immune to fire/ice and paired up with a warlock their disruption/subjigation group buff I see little to no resists, usually 96-100% of my spells hit on a named fight. Also on raids when I'm given good support (troubador with 7.2% allegro, and dont kill the messenger 7.5% crit chance, + 40% group de-hate, and m1 arias 400pt 30% proc) plus cross raid dehate from coercer 23% (m1) and cross raid synergisim(illusionist m1) 400-500 proc 700pt de-agro 33%, and amends from a paly, and feral vim from the fury(for another 700 power), the main tank has a coercer for hate gain, plus either a swash or assasin for hate transfer. I can go full burn once mobs are in position, and even lead with fusion hit all 3 mobs and not pull agro. Ive done as high as 2500 dps on a single target raid fight, and 2600 dps on a longer 3 mob raid fight. I've also parsed 1150 dps on an 8 minute raid fight (essence of fear with only 3 groups) I have yet to see another class in my entire eq2 t7 raiding beat those #'s on my server.

IllusiveThoughts

07-13-2006, 08:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neferkare wrote: One more thing actually if i may, you mention chain armor as a trade off to rooting... but how often does armor get broken by Dds or is outright resisted? a spell cast does not equal perma passive armor with all the benefits that entails, for instance. A scout is attacked by 2 ungrouped mobs he gets the benefit immediatly. We however are screwed as we have to run around like mad men stunning rooting at this point half dead, to be equal to the scout in this reguard? While if root lands barring casters and ranged mobs root can outright nullify incoming damage.. while chain protect against all types... but wont nullify it... i dont see it as balanced however.. because in practice passive defense is always better than some sorta cast on the fly... oh god they gonna stomp me root thing. (also pointlessw in group pvp I might add) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> wizards suck at pvp, end of story, pick a scout and be much happier, if you want to play a wizard on pvp you will pretty much suck forever. From what I gather you dont have ring of cold yet (aoe root) once you do get that killing 2-3-4-5 grouped mobs is a joke. As a lvl 70 wizard I can go the entire duration of a fight without being hit once. While my ranger has to sit there and get beat on. what happens if that ranger gets an add while fighting? they have 2 choices run or evac. we as wizards can simply root the add and continue killing the other mobs. Simply put you wont understand until you actually play one of those classes and try to solo up to lvl 70. oh and do try soloing heroics, so you can see how good we wizards really do have it.

curtlewis

07-14-2006, 10:19 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Neferkare wrote:I've heard raiding is terrible due to immune and evil high resisting mobs? <hr></blockquote> Some of the T5 and T6 raids have complete immunities to large percentages of our spells. You're just leeching loot on those fights. It's even worse for Warlocks where in GoAA in the DoF expansion most of the raid mobs are immune to both Poison AND Disease. At least they're just Fire or Ice Immune to us. Either immunity seriously cripples us. You either take out Ice, which is our only line that really does serious damage, or you take out our much less effective Fire line, but that is 80% of what we have, so you're left with very little you can cast, mostly with long refresh times. As a Warlock in GoAA, tho, you don't even get that much. Both classes are far too dependent on having an illusionist, coercer, troubador and pally around to layer deaggro for them. Both classes need VASTLY better deaggro control. Summoners usually outdamage Sorcerors easily. One reason is their aggro is split in half between their pet and them. Yeah, if their pet dies, it all goes to them. But since it's aggro is half what yours is, it's not drawing aggro.... Sorcerors are big hit classes. We need big deaggros. We don't have them. We don't have a pet to double our cast/attack rate or protect us. We have short lived roots. Illusive is the rare case. He has, at his disposal, every possible class that can provide deaggro for him. This should not be required for us to adequately fulfill our role as raid artillery. AFAIC, ONE of those classes should be enough, it is for most other DPS classes (assassins, necros, conjurors, etc). </div><div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-15-2006, 01:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote: <DIV> This should not be required for us to adequately fulfill our role as raid artillery. AFAIC, ONE of those classes should be enough, it is for most other DPS classes (assassins, necros, conjurors, etc). </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you there curt. I shouldn't have to have 4 de-agro's on me to reach my max dps potential.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-15-2006, 02:40 AM

(essence of fear with only 3 groups) Ha! I thought that was you Illu! Missed you on the raids after that... Allestair was happy though, less competition for first place in parse, lol! Anyways.. enough derailing.. I think it's something of a testament to how much of a Pure Damage class sorcerers are, that the more deaggro you have, the higher your damage can be.. with a very, very high limit. However, that's also what hurts them as a "DPS" class... the distinction being that while you can do lots of damage, you can't do it safely.. and thus have to hold back and sometimes become less than Tier 1 DPS just to not screw everyone up (or die). I would prefer to see the potential for high, quick DPS in the classes (I have a warlock too ya know), that didn't require so much outside help to still be tier 1. Because just like how getting other classes procs means it's really the other class that's bringing that DPS to the table (you are just the outlet), the deaggro folks give is what's increasing the DPS... not your class directly. Which means it's not the Wizard that's doing the 2600 DPS... it's the Wizard + partly Pally + partly Corcer + partly Troub .... + partly anyone else that's giving procs, etc. A joint effort so to speak. Tier 0 DPS should be possible, with so many folks working together on it. However the wizard and warlock should be allowed to be at least Tier 1 DPS without having that much help. It's not terrible how it's currently set up... I'd just like to see the level of personal dehate that scouts seem to have (detaunts + hate transfers, etc). The current trend of updates seems promising though... if they continue to tweak in that direction instead of stopping.

IllusiveThoughts

07-15-2006, 03:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote: (essence of fear with only 3 groups) Ha! I thought that was you Illu! Missed you on the raids after that... Allestair was happy though, less competition for first place in parse, lol! Anyways.. enough derailing.. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> de-rail shmail, I have some friends visiting from texas for last weekend and also this weekend, I'll be back with you all next weekend and hopefully we can be come the tripod of dps for the raid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have been logging on during the week though and picked up a ceace m1 and today a incapacitate m1, tried to get a rending icicles but no one was online <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Always a pleasure pushing alle to higher peaks in his dps, cant wait till you both are fully aa'd and we can start pumping out some serious dps.

Seekor

07-15-2006, 06:32 PM

<DIV>Yes, we are DPS. Although, certain mobs, zones, and gear can make another class outdps you. And seeing as how this was RoV at 30, i can see this. He is simply out DPSing you due to gear, or the fact that you guys were really shredding the zone, and he was faster attacking. But this means almost nothing, seeing as how he is also a Tier 1 DPS. And, IMO he should be doing more than you by a little, depending on the situation, but he has almost no Utility like us, its all DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helped.</DIV>

Brockaine2

07-16-2006, 07:33 PM

The point I think alot of people miss si that we CAN do huge damage. I could maintain top dps for a couple minutes if I wanted to but I would have way more agro then I know what to do with. We deal good damage but we have no reliable way to recude our agro and most of our big hitters take incredible ammounts of power. Also concussive and cease do not count as reliable agro reducers. 1 point of dmg = 1 agro hence ball of lava easily gets more agro then concussive + cease can take away. Give us a steady hate transfer or deagro buff and watch wizards truely be top tier dps. I don't really understand why this hasn't happened either. an Assassin can cast a SPELL to transfer like 25% agro to someone else but a spellcaster can't? It would be logical to give us something.

Senken0

07-16-2006, 07:39 PM

If you have KoS you can summon a familiar that reduces hate i think.But with out that there are only the two mentioned agro reducers as far as i know.But heck i'm new so i know nothing :smileyvery-happy:<div></div>

eromon

07-16-2006, 11:06 PM

thanks all, this post has restored my faith in Wizzys to some extent. and IIIusive i did actually hav pretty poor gear but that was because i was leveling fast and didnt see any need to buy new gear too quickly also i had aquired some lvl 33 gear from killing Varsoon so was working my way up to that Gear, add to this that some mobs had resisted my fireball meaning i had to spend long time recatsting and also mobs where killed fast this does mean fights last a pretty short time, also pretty annoying how we have to hold back so we dont grab aggro, my fireball had to be cast we concussive or as happened before will grab aggro (only if i cast too early at start of fight) <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> aggro management isnt easy to go full out DPS with, hope i get better deaggro spells later on.

ailees

07-17-2006, 12:10 PM

agro management is done by others../<div></div>

Beldin_

07-17-2006, 05:49 PM

Btw. don't always trust the pure parser numbers, for example Ice Shield damage always counts to the DPS of the tank you cast it on. If my 70 SK plays with a wizzy it will normally boost my DPS by around 100.

IllusiveThoughts

07-17-2006, 06:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beldin_ wrote: Btw. don't always trust the pure parser numbers, for example Ice Shield damage always counts to the DPS of the tank you cast it on. If my 70 SK plays with a wizzy it will normally boost my DPS by around 100. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> that is not true. lu 24 changed it so ice sheild counts as the wizards dps.

The Ban

07-19-2006, 06:41 AM

Illusive, how are you able to post those parses on these forums like that? I would love to post some myself but simply don't understand how. I have a feeling it has something to do with the import export tab, but may be wrong. I use ACT, how do I get the parses in the main tab to a pastable format for these forums?Message Edited by The Banff on 07-18-2006 07:48 PM

The Ban

07-19-2006, 07:43 AM

Basically, i agree with Illusive that wizards can be very good DPS if given enough support, if not they are ok but not really t1. I recently created a wizard on the nagafen pvp server and joined a raid guild, I have grown to like the character so much that I have pretty much stopped playing my berserker on Oasis. Basically I am starting out new yet again in the raid scheme as a lot of the people in my nagafen guild I am in have never raided. We hit up courts,gates,lockjaw,other t6 raids and now we are starting to get into the t7 scheme with labs. My wizard is only 65 atm, but given a troub I can keep up with the lvl 70s in my guild dps wise and in most cases surpass them. I have a courts parse that we did a few nights ago. It basically shows what I can do with a troub in my group. My group setup was not very good other than the troub It was something like this (wizard,necro,necro,troub,brigand,warlock), anyway here are the parses. (sorry for the bad format I don't yet understand how to put them in the format illusive does so this is the best I can do. This is a parse of Brius Lakado NameStart TimeDurationDamageHealedDP[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]sSwingsDmg Taken Wizard (ME)112345 1604.9 (65) Necro 75035 1103.4 Berserker 72679 1009.4 Brigand 47508 709.0 Brigand 49649 699.2 (62) Bruiser 41233 644.2 Assassin 41044 586.3 (66) Wizard 35586 539.1 (60) The people that aren't 70 in that parse have their lvl to the right of their DPS I currently have 25 AAs with wis 4/4/4/8 My spell rotation was Iceshied,artic icicles, then ball of lava, surging tempest, protoflame, forge of ro, then ball of lava, Iceshield (brigand calls dispatch at this point), concussive, freehand/fusion, Ice Comet, cease, artic icicles, ball of lava, Iceshield, then cremate, incapacitate, sunstrike, ball of lava, cremate, sunstrike and that ended the fight I think I was the only one in the top 5 that was not 70 besides the brigand , but I did have a troub with me which helps alot. Without him I have to hold back alot more. The MT group didn't really have any hate gain in it I don't think. Pretty much all the fights were about like this going up and down depending on the number of mobs. Our MT was a guardian who averaged about 300-400 DPS. When our berserker tanks I get even higher since I can pretty much go all out. P.S. If anyone has any tips on how I can refine my casting order with the spells I currently have at 65 feel free as I am always open to suggestions. This is a parse of Wolan Lakodo Wizard(me) 79421 1498.5 (65) Necro 67143 1243.3 Necro 66358 1228.8 (64) Berserker 70173 1209.8 Assassin 49917 860.6 (66) Brigand 42993 781.6 Bruiser 41539 755.2 Brigand 41969 749.4 (62) Wizard 25888 488.4 (60) I would post more parses but I am getting kinda tired and the only way I know to post it is in one giant paragraph and it takes 30 mins or so to sit their in pick it apart and rearange it into a legible format. Message Edited by The Banff on 07-18-200608:51 PM Message Edited by The Banff on 07-19-2006 10:34 AM

ailees

07-19-2006, 11:09 AM

>Wizard(me) 79421 1498.5 (65)Necro 67143 1243.3Necro 66358 1228.8 (64)if the 2d necro is 70, he's totally slacking. There is no way at all that a 65 wize can do more damages than a 70 necro... just as the 2d necro shows.

IllusiveThoughts

07-19-2006, 06:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Banff wrote: Illusive, how are you able to post those parses on these forums like that? I would love to post some myself but simply don't understand how. I have a feeling it has something to do with the import export tab, but may be wrong. I use ACT, how do I get the parses in the main tab to a pastable format for these forums? Message Edited by The Banff on 07-18-2006 07:48 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> right click on the parse you want and click export to clipboard, then past (ctrl V) into the chat window. if you want to display pie graphs and such you will need to host them on a website prior to linking them to the forum, and when you link the picture you need to right click and go to properties and copy the file location from the properties tab in order to post the picture. Your desktop is not a suitable location to host the pictures. oh and nice job on dps, i'm assuming those fights fusion was up?Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 07-19-2006 07:20 AM

The Ban

07-19-2006, 09:29 PM

Ok, I kinda understand now. Yes, fusion was up

Gazrun

07-23-2006, 01:58 PM

Wizard spells are ready to use again much faster than assassin/ranger combat arts ice comet has 40 sec reuse timer assassinate has over 3 mins so while they wait wizards are Ice cometing again and again.You cant just base it all on the strength of one move is what i am saying. However Assassins still rock IMO <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Gazruney -64-Wizard-Nektulos

Jezekie

07-23-2006, 02:40 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>ailees wrote:>Wizard(me) 79421 1498.5 (65)Necro 67143 1243.3Necro 66358 1228.8 (64)if the 2d necro is 70, he's totally slacking. There is no way at all that a 65 wize can do more damages than a 70 necro... just as the 2d necro shows.<hr></blockquote>I agree, Necros at 70 do obscene (Too much) amounts of damage, often more then me dispite that I have Bol/IN/Incap/Sunstrike M1, and they have a bunch of their spells M1 (swarm pets, scout pet, nukes).</div>

notyou

07-24-2006, 09:12 PM

I'm assuming that is DPS and not ExtDPS.And unless a necro is slacking or asleep, they are unbeatable. Conjurors have been nerfed but necros still do way too much damage.<div></div>

VajonaYo

07-24-2006, 11:15 PM

It's all about the man ( or women ) behind the mouse. Wizy's can commonly own the parse if you know your toon. :robotmad:

QQ-Fatman

07-24-2006, 11:17 PM

<DIV>Some dps numbers here: My AA now is wis 4-5-4-8-8, Agi 4-4-4-8. My spells are ALL M1 except single root and mana feed. My gears are almost all t7 fabled. I usually group with a troubador for hate reduction, mana regen and spell proc. Our MT (SK) usually has a dirge or an assassin transfering hate to him. Raids that I dont have problem with: (these numbers are all ext.dps) LoA: DPS = 1000-1400 single target. I cant use AE, if I use I die. HoS: DPS = 1000-1400 single target. Long fight like the elemental warder I do about 1000 if I dont die. Deathtoll: DPS = 900-1200 single target. 600-1000 vs. Tarinax (I can hit 1000 if i dont die.) Here are fights that I have problem (resist) with: Labs trash mobs: DPS = only 600-1000 single target. I dont know how illu did 2000 dps in labs but almost all mobs there are highly resisted to my spells. Ever seen a 1700 dmg BoL in raid? (yes it hits lower than its min dmg.) Vyemm: DPS = 600-800. Resist a lot and my spells are hitting very low numbers. Harla Dar: DPS = 700-900. Again resist problem. Her AE DoT interrupts me a lot too. Goreniria and Telendor: DPS = 600-800. Very long fight + resist problem. In the fights that I have resist problem, my M1 BoL with max brainstorm and max int, avg hit is lower than 3000 (only 1/2 of illu's number.) My spells also get outright resisted sometimes. I always keep my rending icicle (M1) on my target when I nuke, but it doesnt help at all. Yesterday an assassin in my guild did 1500+ dps vs. harla dar and his decapitate wasnt even up. That's double of my dps! So if you ask me "Re: Are We DPS? or is it Assassins." I'd say yes we are DPS but assassins can do much higher single target dps.</DIV>

IllusiveThoughts

07-25-2006, 01:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote: <DIV>Some dps numbers here: My AA now is wis 4-5-4-8-8, Agi 4-4-4-8. My spells are ALL M1 except single root and mana feed. My gears are almost all t7 fabled. I usually group with a troubador for hate reduction, mana regen and spell proc. Our MT (SK) usually has a dirge or an assassin transfering hate to him. Raids that I dont have problem with: (these numbers are all ext.dps) LoA: DPS = 1000-1400 single target. I cant use AE, if I use I die. HoS: DPS = 1000-1400 single target. Long fight like the elemental warder I do about 1000 if I dont die. Deathtoll: DPS = 900-1200 single target. 600-1000 vs. Tarinax (I can hit 1000 if i dont die.) Here are fights that I have problem (resist) with: Labs trash mobs: DPS = only 600-1000 single target. I dont know how illu did 2000 dps in labs but almost all mobs there are highly resisted to my spells. Ever seen a 1700 dmg BoL in raid? (yes it hits lower than its min dmg.) Vyemm: DPS = 600-800. Resist a lot and my spells are hitting very low numbers. Harla Dar: DPS = 700-900. Again resist problem. Her AE DoT interrupts me a lot too. Goreniria and Telendor: DPS = 600-800. Very long fight + resist problem. In the fights that I have resist problem, my M1 BoL with max brainstorm and max int, avg hit is lower than 3000 (only 1/2 of illu's number.) My spells also get outright resisted sometimes. I always keep my rending icicle (M1) on my target when I nuke, but it doesnt help at all. Yesterday an assassin in my guild did 1500+ dps vs. harla dar and his decapitate wasnt even up. That's double of my dps! So if you ask me "Re: Are We DPS? or is it Assassins." I'd say yes we are DPS but assassins can do much higher single target dps.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I noticed unusually higher resists in labs on saturday, turns out the paly (aa that gives bonus to disruption/subigation ect) wasn't on the raid, and the warlock wasn't grouped with me, so I only had my self buffed disruption to deal with. swapped the warlock to my group and enjoyed fewer resists, some spells were 96% hit rate (seemed to be my adp3's) and 98%-100% were my m1's for the zone after the warlock joined up. Before that I had 3 ice novas in a row against one named get resisted. Also didn't have a troubador with us either, only had 23% de-hate from the coercer, lots of deathage on our last run. Even then the MT was able to hold about agro at about1500 dps on the trash, as long as I used concussive and ceace when they refreshed and started nuking on the dps call (usually gave 7 seconds to land hex doll debuff)

Jeffmaster

07-26-2006, 08:10 PM

boy...that brig really sucks being out dps's by a zerker? I've seen brig's in the 1800 range out dps assassins

Jezekie

07-28-2006, 07:05 AM

Sant

07-28-2006, 10:53 AM

Based on that Parsing The Wizard was the best in 5 out of eleven checks and was in the top 3 in 10 out of 11. that seems pretty dam good to me. I also dont get what you mean by iceshield being "fake DPS" , damage is damage and part of a wizards dps is based on good use of shields. Seems to me that you are just wasting a good spell by not using it. Add the damage you could generate with shields and i would bet you are on the top in a few more putting you easily in the lead as best over all dps'er <div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-28-2006, 11:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote: Based on that Parsing The Wizard was the best in 5 out of eleven checks and was in the top 3 in 10 out of 11. that seems pretty dam good to me. I also dont get what you mean by iceshield being "fake DPS" , damage is damage and part of a wizards dps is based on good use of shields. Seems to me that you are just wasting a good spell by not using it. Add the damage you could generate with shields and i would bet you are on the top in a few more putting you easily in the lead as best over all dps'er <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> on fights where ice sheild actually procs all 3 times every time i cast it, i get about 7-11% extra dmg from it.

IllusiveThoughts

07-28-2006, 11:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>My Achievement setup is the same as QQFatman, WIS = 4, 5, 4, 8, 8, and AGI 4, 4, 4, 8. I have SS, BoL, Incap, Nova, Fusion, Firestorm, RI, and the two AoEs all M1, rest AD3. Group setup was my self, warlock, 66 troub (dove song, power regen, proc buff, deaggro buff), Conjuror, Necromancer, and Warden. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> were you wearing xhaviz's gown or skywatchers? did you have gargolye (hate reduc pet) up or did you have the book (crit pet) there was a paly on the raid, I'd try to convice your raid leader to put the paly in the same group as you and the troub and watch your dps skyrocket as you dont have to use any de-agros and can chain cast on the dps call, only stopping to use canni spells to ensure you can chain nuke for the fight duration. or if the paly is in mt group for the mit buff ask to have the guardian put with you and give you moderate. (33% hate reduc at adp3)Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 07-28-2006 12:14 AM

Jezekie

07-28-2006, 05:26 PM

Yar, the paladin is pretty nifty to have soaking you up and I've had him in the group occasioanlly on other raids. Group was just more focused on boosting all of our mages through the use of the troub rather then having paladin soak one of the two sorcerers, and on that note I'd think the warlock would have had greater benefit in the end anyway, so he could AoE trash more.As for gear setup I had skywatchers on for most of the time in there, fights were short enough to not worry too much about power with a 7.1k power pool and the troub. I did have Xhavi'z out towards the end for Corsolander tho, could probably have been fine with skywatchers tho in hindsight. And garg pet was out all the time.<div></div>

Jezekie

07-28-2006, 05:29 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Santsu wrote: I also dont get what you mean by iceshield being "fake DPS" , damage is damage and part of a wizards dps is based on good use of shields. <div></div><hr></blockquote>What I meant was that Ice Shield is a damage shield and other classes damage shield buffs doesn't count as their own damage but the damage of the target. So if you want to compare between the various classes Ice Shield needs to be excluded, IMO anyway, but to each his/her own.</div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-28-2006, 06:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote: Yar, the paladin is pretty nifty to have soaking you up and I've had him in the group occasioanlly on other raids. Group was just more focused on boosting all of our mages through the use of the troub rather then having paladin soak one of the two sorcerers, and on that note I'd think the warlock would have had greater benefit in the end anyway, so he could AoE trash more. As for gear setup I had skywatchers on for most of the time in there, fights were short enough to not worry too much about power with a 7.1k power pool and the troub. I did have Xhavi'z out towards the end for Corsolander tho, could probably have been fine with skywatchers tho in hindsight. And garg pet was out all the time. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> imho there is no point in boosting any mage with a troub (can inflate my dps by 800-1000 dps) if they can still pull agro, what good is more dps if you cant utilize it? if the dps threashold is about 1200 for you with a troub, then everyone of the mages who pulls agro needs more hate reduction, and you need a coercer for hate gain on the MT BAD! You shouldn't have to wear skywatchers or have the garg pet up, or even cast concussive with a troub. I would of set up (if I had a choice) wizard - guardian (avoidence buff and moderate on wizzie) warlock - paly (amends on warlock + avoidence buff) troub and healer. the nec and conj would be able to do 1600 and not pull agro outside of the troub group if the dps threashold was 1200 with your mt with them in the troub group. I'd also swap amends and moderate around depending on the encounter (amends for aoe's on warlock, and amends for singles on wizzie) with that set up you should be able to get another 500 or so dps from the wiz and warlock without pulling agro and dieing. add in a coercer and 2k would be obtainable. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 07-28-2006 07:14 AMMessage Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 07-28-2006 07:31 AM

LoreLady

07-28-2006, 07:07 PM

I know this isent the place for this.. but I wish I could achieve 2k dps even at the best setup!.. You guys are making me jealous talking about this.. On our boards (ranger boards) its filled with despairity.. Illu - You have done an amazing job putting out informitive information, and keeping things on an upbeat level.

IllusiveThoughts

07-28-2006, 08:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote: I know this isent the place for this.. but I wish I could achieve 2k dps even at the best setup!.. You guys are making me jealous talking about this.. On our boards (ranger boards) its filled with despairity.. Illu - You have done an amazing job putting out informitive information, and keeping things on an upbeat level. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> rangers definately need some love. The best raid fights that I tend to see rangers at the top are short fights (less than 30s) with either snipershot or rain of arrows (or both) are up, and most of your 1 min and 3 min timers are up. Other than those very specific encounters our ranger is usually behind the other dps classes.

Jezekie

07-28-2006, 09:08 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:what good is more dps if you cant utilize it? if the dps threashold is about 1200 for you with a troub, then everyone of the mages who pulls agro needs more hate reduction, and you need a coercer for hate gain on the MT BAD! You shouldn't have to wear skywatchers or have the garg pet up, or even cast concussive with a troub.<hr></blockquote>Yar, our coercer have been MIA for a bit, but is due back shortly so the next couple raids should be better off as he can cast Harmonious Link on me, and buff the MTs hate generation.I also know I need to use Forge of Ro more then I do presently, the tricky part is getting it down fast enough so I don't waste time running around in circles plus remember to avoid AoEs. Wish I could find the M1 version of it, as well as the M1 version of Surging Tempest.I do look forward to not having the need for the familar garg and the skywatchers while still pushing the pedal down.</div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-28-2006, 10:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: what good is more dps if you cant utilize it? if the dps threashold is about 1200 for you with a troub, then everyone of the mages who pulls agro needs more hate reduction, and you need a coercer for hate gain on the MT BAD! You shouldn't have to wear skywatchers or have the garg pet up, or even cast concussive with a troub. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Yar, our coercer have been MIA for a bit, but is due back shortly so the next couple raids should be better off as he can cast Harmonious Link on me, and buff the MTs hate generation. I also know I need to use Forge of Ro more then I do presently, the tricky part is getting it down fast enough so I don't waste time running around in circles plus remember to avoid AoEs. Wish I could find the M1 version of it, as well as the M1 version of Surging Tempest. I do look forward to not having the need for the familar garg and the skywatchers while still pushing the pedal down. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> with little to no hate reduction I usually dont put forge of ro down untill the middle of the fight. Put it down too early and you will draw aoe agro since it no longer has its own hate list.