Wizard vs Warlock hate transfer? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

duuf

07-11-2006, 04:32 AM

My wiz has been in main group for our guild raids primarily to transfer hate to our Pally tank and was almost always top dps by a large margin Recently we got a well mastered warlock that was able to convince the raid leaders he could generate more dps and thus more hate on amends transfer. Even throttled back doing significanlty less damage than the warlock my wiz without hate transfer was drawing agro almost constantly from the main target. For example 5 second delay before ma engages, debuff, glacial wind(crit), ball of lava, concussive, dead before ice nova can even be started. My question with a Warlocks damage being almost all group is the hate transfer for the main target to the Pally less than a wiz who is on the main target almost completely. Oh, and by the way the next raid we had 2 pallys, and it became very apparent on an even playing field that wiz are top dps. Almost fell out of my chair laughing when the warlock said it was because of spike damage.Duffus lvl70 wizDuufuss lvl 70 pallyEverfrost<div></div>

valkyrja

07-11-2006, 07:12 AM

I would say you're right and he's wrong based on what you're saying. If you are getting killed BEFORE you can get an Ice Nova off, there is a serious hate gain issue. Tell your raid leaders to go back to the way it was.<div></div>

Mareth

07-11-2006, 03:07 PM

If you can draw aggro that easily from a pally with amends on the warlock, there's no doubt who the amends should be on. You. Or have the warlock stop slacking <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

ailees

07-11-2006, 04:47 PM

>For example 5 second delay before ma engages, debuff, glacial wind(crit), ball of lavado you mean you cast debuff BEFORE any tank engages ? and glacial wind draws tons of agro now, maybe you should wait a (little) bit if you do'nt have amend <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

trin ka

07-11-2006, 05:25 PM

<DIV>70 Warlock here...was in a HOF group the other night with a pally as MT with a wizzy in group. Needless to say the wizzy and I burned through the mobs real fast<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.....pally had amends on me...wizzy drew aggro....pally had amends on wizzy....I drew aggro. After he had amends on the wizzy..I basically stayed on single target dots and nukes. Staying single target the rest of the zone with amends on the wizzy...the pally kept aggro the rest of the zone.</DIV>

duuf

07-11-2006, 05:33 PM

allees wrote : >For example 5 second delay before ma engages, debuff, glacial wind(crit), ball of lavado you mean you cast debuff BEFORE any tank engages ? and glacial wind draws tons of agro now, maybe you should wait a (little) bit if you do'nt have amend <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"><div></div>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ma = main assist, all targeting including debuff goes thru him. 5 second delay before he engages is to allow the tank to build up good agro which is way a lot of raids control the pull.

duuf

07-11-2006, 05:37 PM

trin wrote:70 Warlock here...was in a HOF group the other night with a pally as MT with a wizzy in group. Needless to say the wizzy and I burned through the mobs real fast<img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16">.....pally had amends on me...wizzy drew aggro....pally had amends on wizzy....I drew aggro. After he had amends on the wizzy..I basically stayed on single target dots and nukes. Staying single target the rest of the zone with amends on the wizzy...the pally kept aggro the rest of the zone______________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____Was the agro for the wizzy from the main target versus the agro for your warlock from the secondary targets? Would seem so since you started doing ok after switching to single target spells.<div></div>

trin ka

07-11-2006, 05:52 PM

Yeah I would think so...not hammering Apocolypse, Nebula, Void Absolution seemed to help....although it cuts my dps back..zone went smooth.

IllusiveThoughts

07-11-2006, 05:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rtwitty wrote: My wiz has been in main group for our guild raids primarily to transfer hate to our Pally tank and was almost always top dps by a large margin Recently we got a well mastered warlock that was able to convince the raid leaders he could generate more dps and thus more hate on amends transfer. Even throttled back doing significanlty less damage than the warlock my wiz without hate transfer was drawing agro almost constantly from the main target. For example 5 second delay before ma engages, debuff, glacial wind(crit), ball of lava, concussive, dead before ice nova can even be started. My question with a Warlocks damage being almost all group is the hate transfer for the main target to the Pally less than a wiz who is on the main target almost completely. Oh, and by the way the next raid we had 2 pallys, and it became very apparent on an even playing field that wiz are top dps. Almost fell out of my chair laughing when the warlock said it was because of spike damage. Duffus lvl70 wiz Duufuss lvl 70 pally Everfrost <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> sounds like the warlock didn't even get an aoe off. You have to remember that in order for the HATE transfer to work the person transferring hate has to actually do damage. If I see another class with amends (shame on paly for not putting it on me) I have to give additional lead time past MA because the person who is transferring hate is usually also waiting on ma call or target. So if everyone starts at the same time amends is wasted. Warlocks can still pull agro on aoes from a paly with amends, they do not make great classes to put amends on(in the MT group for hate gain!) because they still can not go full burn on aoes, and palys have very weak aoe dps compared to other tanks, this is just setting yourself up for failure. Compound that with most warlock aoe's are on 3-4s cast timers and you can see for a warlock to give 3k-4k additional aoe hate(transferred from nukes to paly) will take on average 7-10 seconds of cast time. with paly as mt (and amends on me) I can open with fusion or ice nova and not pull agro. Its not smart to waste a big nuke without some kind of debuff, but when your in the MT group for hate gain you need to do just that build massive hate as fast as possible, so the rest of the raid will be able to attack sooner. You can usually lock in hate on the paly in about 15-20 seconds going full burn on the wizzie.

Brockaine2

07-11-2006, 07:15 PM

<DIV>Seems like a few major problems here. First off you opened up way to soon. Believe it or not a ball of lava is a big enough spike to draw agro this early into the fight. Stick with small dots for a good 20 seconds to be safe. Also the warlock probably didn't even get a big spell off or he had just casted apocolypse and it hadn't ticked enough to get agro building up. Overall a warlock should be generating more agro.....even on a single target if they use their big AoEs on that single target you won't pull ahead in agro until nova and then just barely. </DIV>

Brockaine2

07-11-2006, 07:18 PM

Sorry for the double post...but meant o say to Illusive....In a main tank group the warlock might have been able to full open up but I suppose it depends on the setup. If they had a dirge or coercer in there (lets pray they did) then they actually might be able to get pretty close to spamming big aoes

MeridianR

07-11-2006, 08:02 PM

Was this on single target, and AE encounters? Or just AE Encounters?Amends or not, Paladin's have weak AE hate in the beginning of the fight, so Glacial Winds can possibly draw aggro right away if Righteousness (our AE taunt) was resisted, or all the mobs were not in range before the Paladin used it.Over time our AE hate isn't bad, but in the beginning (Amends on a Warlock or not) it is suspect....<div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-11-2006, 08:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brockaine222 wrote: <DIV>Overall a warlock should be generating more agro.....even on a single target if they use their big AoEs on that single target you won't pull ahead in agro until nova and then just barely. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> While I can agree that warlocks do generate more agro due to having vastly superior aoe dps than a wizard, saying a warlock can generate more single target hate (dps) is a false statement if both classes have equal support. I do know that in order for a warlock to have hopes of going *full* burn on aoe's chain casting them they need a very specific group / raid set up for maximizing their dps. A coercer / dirge helping the paly gain more hate is helpful but the warlock would also need harmonious link from the coercer (23% m1) in order to go full burn without pulling agro the length of the fight, that set up however would cause the Paly to get 23% less hate from the warlock, and thus hurt the raid in terms of hate gain for the MT. Its not optimal by any means, and without harmonious link (or another hate reduction buff) the warlock cant do their full potential, albeit still pumping out good aoe dps, but they would do more if they had a different set up outside of the MT group.

lubu1977

07-11-2006, 10:44 PM

I'm always in top 4 dps in raid and sometimes came in first when my friend swashbuckler is not there..lol. I hardly draw aggro cuz I went int line all the way. I don't need pally or troub to decrease hate cuz i can do it by myself. Int line is da beast!

Pins

07-11-2006, 11:42 PM

<blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Brockaine222 wrote: <DIV>Overall a warlock should be generating more agro.....even on a single target if they use their big AoEs on that single target you won't pull ahead in agro until nova and then just barely. </DIV> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>While I can agree that warlocks do generate more agro due to having vastly superior aoe dps than a wizard, saying a warlock can generate more single target hate (dps) is a false statement if both classes have equal support.I do know that in order for a warlock to have hopes of going *full* burn on aoe's chain casting them they need a very specific group / raid set up for maximizing their dps.A coercer / dirge helping the paly gain more hate is helpful but the warlock would also need harmonious link from the coercer (23% m1) in order to go full burn without pulling agro the length of the fight, that set up however would cause the Paly to get 23% less hate from the warlock, and thus hurt the raid in terms of hate gain for the MT.Its not optimal by any means, and without harmonious link (or another hate reduction buff) the warlock cant do their full potential, albeit still pumping out good aoe dps, but they would do more if they had a different set up outside of the MT group.<hr></blockquote>Or would they really lose 23% hate from the warlock? The whole hate % scheme is very vague and is hard to tell exactly how stuff works. I mean, is that 23% subtracted before the paladin get's the hate, after, or it's just a flat value that is subtracted from the total and the 41% is also a flat value from the total, which gives you 64% de-aggro for the warlock, and 41% of his normal aggro goes to the Paladin. Then aggro increasers, how do those work with something like amends? I mean, you put a 42% hate increased on the paladin, and does that increase the 41% he's siphoning, or what happens? This area is grey and confusing and nobody really knows how it works.

duuf

07-12-2006, 12:20 AM

Let me rephrase with an example: Assume both the wiz and warlock are simarly equipped, mastered up and capable of similar dps On a single target mobs the wiz wins hands downs because the aoe of the warlock can't keep up. In our last raid my wiz was doing up to twice the damage of the warlock on the single target mobs. We both had amends. On multi target mobs somewhere depending on the number the worm will turn and the warlock will start doing more "total" damage. However the wiz is still out damaging the warlock on the main target by the basically the same margins as on the single target. Now the example: Assume 3 targets like many of the mobs in Halls. Assume wiz is doing 1000 dps to the main target and the Warlock is doing 1,500 dps to the whole mob spread out 500 dps to each target. Now the rub: If the wiz is amended to the pally tank 410 points of the wizs hate is transfered to the pally for the main target. If the warlock is amended to the pally tank 615 points of hate is being transferred to the pally but its 205 points per target so the main target is only transfering 205 points. So if everyone is going through the main assist the main target is always building hate towards the pally at a reduced rate with the warlock and any good dps may draw agro and may soon gonna get an unwanted visitor. So am I right in my assumptions or is there some other mechanics in the hate transfer that can give the Warlock the edge on hate transfer for the main target? <div></div>

curtlewis

07-12-2006, 02:18 AM

It looks like the OP was in a multi pull situation (Glacial Winds AoE). With a Pally as your MT, AoE taunt isn't that strong. While Amends helps, most of the Pally's aggro control will be on the mob he's directly attacking. You're going to die trying to AoE in this setup. Even just using Forge of Ro may well get you aggro on the off-mob before the main target is down. Stick to straight DD nukes.I think the real determiner of whether the wiz or warlock should get amends is whether the one without amends is drawing aggro more than when the other person doesn't have amends (does that poor grammar make sense?). It may turn out that the warlock indeed will draw more aggro because he's an AoE class. In that case, you'll just have to scale back, maybe wait a second or two inbetween casts, or open up with a really weak set like:debuff, ice flame, sunstrike, irradiate. That's about the weakest opening set you can do and gives the tank more time to build aggro. Then you can let lose with BoL or IceNova and have a much better chance of survival.<div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-12-2006, 04:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rtwitty wrote: Let me rephrase with an example: Assume both the wiz and warlock are simarly equipped, mastered up and capable of similar dps On a single target mobs the wiz wins hands downs because the aoe of the warlock can't keep up. In our last raid my wiz was doing up to twice the damage of the warlock on the single target mobs. We both had amends. On multi target mobs somewhere depending on the number the worm will turn and the warlock will start doing more "total" damage. However the wiz is still out damaging the warlock on the main target by the basically the same margins as on the single target. Now the example: Assume 3 targets like many of the mobs in Halls. Assume wiz is doing 1000 dps to the main target and the Warlock is doing 1,500 dps to the whole mob spread out 500 dps to each target. Now the rub: If the wiz is amended to the pally tank 410 points of the wizs hate is transfered to the pally for the main target. If the warlock is amended to the pally tank 615 points of hate is being transferred to the pally but its 205 points per target so the main target is only transfering 205 points. So if everyone is going through the main assist the main target is always building hate towards the pally at a reduced rate with the warlock and any good dps may draw agro and may soon gonna get an unwanted visitor. So am I right in my assumptions or is there some other mechanics in the hate transfer that can give the Warlock the edge on hate transfer for the main target? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> in that example yes.

IllusiveThoughts

07-12-2006, 05:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brockaine222 wrote: <DIV>Overall a warlock should be generating more agro.....even on a single target if they use their big AoEs on that single target you won't pull ahead in agro until nova and then just barely.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> While I can agree that warlocks do generate more agro due to having vastly superior aoe dps than a wizard, saying a warlock can generate more single target hate (dps) is a false statement if both classes have equal support. I do know that in order for a warlock to have hopes of going *full* burn on aoe's chain casting them they need a very specific group / raid set up for maximizing their dps. A coercer / dirge helping the paly gain more hate is helpful but the warlock would also need harmonious link from the coercer (23% m1) in order to go full burn without pulling agro the length of the fight, that set up however would cause the Paly to get 23% less hate from the warlock, and thus hurt the raid in terms of hate gain for the MT. Its not optimal by any means, and without harmonious link (or another hate reduction buff) the warlock cant do their full potential, albeit still pumping out good aoe dps, but they would do more if they had a different set up outside of the MT group. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Or would they really lose 23% hate from the warlock? The whole hate % scheme is very vague and is hard to tell exactly how stuff works. I mean, is that 23% subtracted before the paladin get's the hate, after, or it's just a flat value that is subtracted from the total and the 41% is also a flat value from the total, which gives you 64% de-aggro for the warlock, and 41% of his normal aggro goes to the Paladin. Then aggro increasers, how do those work with something like amends? I mean, you put a 42% hate increased on the paladin, and does that increase the 41% he's siphoning, or what happens? This area is grey and confusing and nobody really knows how it works. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Here's how I see it working either way they both come pretty close. after doing the #'s I think i'll have to say that having harmonious link on the warlock isn't going to negate the extra dps he can do from the additional hate reduction to the raid in this senario. warlock does 1000 dps (to make it easy) 23% of that is taken away with harmonious link total hate at that point 770, then 41% of that gets moved to the paly and 51% stays with the warlock, paly gets 315.7 hate warlock gets 392.7 hate. That means the paly only has to be doing 77dps in order to always stay ahead of the warlock. Here's how it would look if it was swapped around 1000dps @ 41% transfer to paly first and then 23% reduction to warlock after. 410 to paly 454.3 to warlock. paly only has to do 44 dps to hold agro. so it seems either way would be beneficial.

Pins

07-12-2006, 10:35 PM

<blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brockaine222 wrote: <DIV>Overall a warlock should be generating more agro.....even on a single target if they use their big AoEs on that single target you won't pull ahead in agro until nova and then just barely.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> While I can agree that warlocks do generate more agro due to having vastly superior aoe dps than a wizard, saying a warlock can generate more single target hate (dps) is a false statement if both classes have equal support. I do know that in order for a warlock to have hopes of going *full* burn on aoe's chain casting them they need a very specific group / raid set up for maximizing their dps. A coercer / dirge helping the paly gain more hate is helpful but the warlock would also need harmonious link from the coercer (23% m1) in order to go full burn without pulling agro the length of the fight, that set up however would cause the Paly to get 23% less hate from the warlock, and thus hurt the raid in terms of hate gain for the MT. Its not optimal by any means, and without harmonious link (or another hate reduction buff) the warlock cant do their full potential, albeit still pumping out good aoe dps, but they would do more if they had a different set up outside of the MT group. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Or would they really lose 23% hate from the warlock? The whole hate % scheme is very vague and is hard to tell exactly how stuff works. I mean, is that 23% subtracted before the paladin get's the hate, after, or it's just a flat value that is subtracted from the total and the 41% is also a flat value from the total, which gives you 64% de-aggro for the warlock, and 41% of his normal aggro goes to the Paladin. Then aggro increasers, how do those work with something like amends? I mean, you put a 42% hate increased on the paladin, and does that increase the 41% he's siphoning, or what happens? This area is grey and confusing and nobody really knows how it works. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Here's how I see it working either way they both come pretty close. after doing the #'s I think i'll have to say that having harmonious link on the warlock isn't going to negate the extra dps he can do from the additional hate reduction to the raid in this senario. warlock does 1000 dps (to make it easy) 23% of that is taken away with harmonious link total hate at that point 770, then 41% of that gets moved to the paly and 51% stays with the warlock, paly gets 315.7 hate warlock gets 392.7 hate. That means the paly only has to be doing 77dps in order to always stay ahead of the warlock. Here's how it would look if it was swapped around 1000dps @ 41% transfer to paly first and then 23% reduction to warlock after. 410 to paly 454.3 to warlock. paly only has to do 44 dps to hold agro. so it seems either way would be beneficial. <hr></blockquote> But that's not the way I see it. It's 41% instantly to the paladin and 23% taken off, so the warlock is down to 360 to the warlock, 210 to nobody, and 410 to the paladin. Which is why it's all confusing on the hate numbers until a dev(which they don't seem to want to explain this) says how hate transfers/stuff stack.

TheBu

07-12-2006, 10:39 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rtwitty wrote: Even throttled back doing significanlty less damage than the warlock my wiz without hate transfer was drawing agro almost constantly from the main target. For example 5 second delay before ma engages, debuff, glacial wind(crit), ball of lava, concussive, dead before ice nova can even be started. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well sorry man but I really dont count that as "throttled back" defuff then bigest aoe then fire ball nuke.. then ur hoping 4 nova? </DIV> <DIV>I do something like pet, debuff, iradiate, cease deagro, ball of lava </DIV> <DIV>if you look at the dps on those two/three spells they give you the most dps per casting time. Then you wer looking to us nova being the most dps per casting time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>no need to /flex try the slow and steady win the race... it not a good idea to turn some of the mobs.</DIV></DIV> <DIV>purhaps the warlock did not cast an aoe first?</DIV> <DIV>question is who agroed u? the main mob? or the one you aoed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as a pally and a wiz. I would perfer to have the agro transfer on the warlock. so you guys can aoe latter on.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I would not cast my single target and aoe agro right off. I wait for the ho ... to get more bang for the buck.</DIV> <DIV>also do you really think you doing more dps then the pally and 40% of the warlock and the pallies taunts over time?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think ther some rule for using aoe in a raid? not before a %?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

IllusiveThoughts

07-13-2006, 01:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brockaine222 wrote: <DIV>Overall a warlock should be generating more agro.....even on a single target if they use their big AoEs on that single target you won't pull ahead in agro until nova and then just barely.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> While I can agree that warlocks do generate more agro due to having vastly superior aoe dps than a wizard, saying a warlock can generate more single target hate (dps) is a false statement if both classes have equal support. I do know that in order for a warlock to have hopes of going *full* burn on aoe's chain casting them they need a very specific group / raid set up for maximizing their dps. A coercer / dirge helping the paly gain more hate is helpful but the warlock would also need harmonious link from the coercer (23% m1) in order to go full burn without pulling agro the length of the fight, that set up however would cause the Paly to get 23% less hate from the warlock, and thus hurt the raid in terms of hate gain for the MT. Its not optimal by any means, and without harmonious link (or another hate reduction buff) the warlock cant do their full potential, albeit still pumping out good aoe dps, but they would do more if they had a different set up outside of the MT group. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Or would they really lose 23% hate from the warlock? The whole hate % scheme is very vague and is hard to tell exactly how stuff works. I mean, is that 23% subtracted before the paladin get's the hate, after, or it's just a flat value that is subtracted from the total and the 41% is also a flat value from the total, which gives you 64% de-aggro for the warlock, and 41% of his normal aggro goes to the Paladin. Then aggro increasers, how do those work with something like amends? I mean, you put a 42% hate increased on the paladin, and does that increase the 41% he's siphoning, or what happens? This area is grey and confusing and nobody really knows how it works. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Here's how I see it working either way they both come pretty close. after doing the #'s I think i'll have to say that having harmonious link on the warlock isn't going to negate the extra dps he can do from the additional hate reduction to the raid in this senario. warlock does 1000 dps (to make it easy) 23% of that is taken away with harmonious link total hate at that point 770, then 41% of that gets moved to the paly and 51% stays with the warlock, paly gets 315.7 hate warlock gets 392.7 hate. That means the paly only has to be doing 77dps in order to always stay ahead of the warlock. Here's how it would look if it was swapped around 1000dps @ 41% transfer to paly first and then 23% reduction to warlock after. 410 to paly 454.3 to warlock. paly only has to do 44 dps to hold agro. so it seems either way would be beneficial. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> But that's not the way I see it. It's 41% instantly to the paladin and 23% taken off, so the warlock is down to 360 to the warlock, 210 to nobody, and 410 to the paladin. Which is why it's all confusing on the hate numbers until a dev(which they don't seem to want to explain this) says how hate transfers/stuff stack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> My point was that using harmonious link would be beneficial no matter how the hate transfers work. Your example (of another way) also proves that point. I agree we do need a dev to explain how hate transfers, hate reducers, and such stack if there is a cap, and how it all works.

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-13-2006, 01:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote: But that's not the way I see it. It's 41% instantly to the paladin and 23% taken off, so the warlock is down to 360 to the warlock, 210 to nobody, and 410 to the paladin. Which is why it's all confusing on the hate numbers until a dev(which they don't seem to want to explain this) says how hate transfers/stuff stack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That's the way I see it as well. The reason being that with the other way, having a Pally, Troub and Coercer stack their debuffs will only bring you down to about ~30% of your hate... and yet when we have that set up, and a wipe occurs, we see it go straight to the pally, then everyone else in the raid before hitting the wizard. The wizard was clocking in at 2600 DPS, which would bring it close to 800 DPS in hate... and yet people who were doing only 600 or less DPS were being attacked first. And no, the wizard wasn't using any deaggro.. he was going full out damage to get that high of a parse. The only time he died before others was if the Pally died from something, and the wizard continued nuking before realizing (or landing a critted fusion). Besides.. how would the game decide which to apply first? You would get different numbers depending on which you reduce first... who's buff would take precedence? Seriously.. from that experience, it feels like it all adds up one on top the other. The wizard really seemed to have 100% hate reduction.. while the Pally was soaking up 1k extra hate. Good thing his DPS was around 400 or less, even when he tried! Oh.. another thing. When MT fell, it went after the Pally... then the next highest DPSing person after the wizard (a conjuror). Since the pally was sitting at around 1400 hate, and the next highest after the wizard had 1600 DPS reduced to ~1200 with Coercer deaggro... it made sense that the pally was getting 1k extra hate. To get that, they'd have to at the very least be applying the Amends before any other reduction. Otherwise the situation I saw repeated 10+ times in two raids wouldn't be happening. It was actually kinda funny to hear in vent. The MT fell and the Pally would say "Oh, here it comes!" and you could hear the Conjuror saying "I don't wanna die! I don't wanna die! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....". :smileyvery-happy:Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on 07-12-2006 04:24 PM

IllusiveThoughts

07-13-2006, 06:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote: But that's not the way I see it. It's 41% instantly to the paladin and 23% taken off, so the warlock is down to 360 to the warlock, 210 to nobody, and 410 to the paladin. Which is why it's all confusing on the hate numbers until a dev(which they don't seem to want to explain this) says how hate transfers/stuff stack. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That's the way I see it as well. The reason being that with the other way, having a Pally, Troub and Coercer stack their debuffs will only bring you down to about ~30% of your hate... and yet when we have that set up, and a wipe occurs, we see it go straight to the pally, then everyone else in the raid before hitting the wizard. The wizard was clocking in at 2600 DPS, which would bring it close to 800 DPS in hate... and yet people who were doing only 600 or less DPS were being attacked first. And no, the wizard wasn't using any deaggro.. he was going full out damage to get that high of a parse. The only time he died before others was if the Pally died from something, and the wizard continued nuking before realizing (or landing a critted fusion). Besides.. how would the game decide which to apply first? You would get different numbers depending on which you reduce first... who's buff would take precedence? Seriously.. from that experience, it feels like it all adds up one on top the other. The wizard really seemed to have 100% hate reduction.. while the Pally was soaking up 1k extra hate. Good thing his DPS was around 400 or less, even when he tried! Oh.. another thing. When MT fell, it went after the Pally... then the next highest DPSing person after the wizard (a conjuror). Since the pally was sitting at around 1400 hate, and the next highest after the wizard had 1600 DPS reduced to ~1200 with Coercer deaggro... it made sense that the pally was getting 1k extra hate. To get that, they'd have to at the very least be applying the Amends before any other reduction. Otherwise the situation I saw repeated 10+ times in two raids wouldn't be happening. It was actually kinda funny to hear in vent. The MT fell and the Pally would say "Oh, here it comes!" and you could hear the Conjuror saying "I don't wanna die! I don't wanna die! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....". :smileyvery-happy: Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on 07-12-2006 04:24 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Thats interesting that you have different results, When I spike to that high and the MT goes down the mob comes straight for me. I think the order that the buffs are on the person may make the difference.

duuf

07-13-2006, 06:59 PM

An update on my experience with wizzy v warlock. In our MOA4 raid last night the warlock was constantly drawing agro on the multi mob encounters so he took my wiz's place in main group amended to our pally tank. I throttled way back and everything went pretty well until the last encounter. My new stategey all dots to begin, no catalyst no freehand and no fusion. On our trys on the Guardian my wiz didnt cast nova until nearly a minute in the fight. First encounter the warlocks dps 596 mine 578. We wipe at 3% which my wiz could probably have made up at full burn. Second try Warlocks dps 464 my wiz 496. On my third nova over 3 min into the encounter I draw agro and we wipe at 23%. With a total wipe the raid is called. In future raids I will be playing my pally if the warlock is being used to try to hold agro. My pally can do a major percentage of the damage my throttled back wiz is doing can also heal, rez to full health, and at least one of our other dps could be going full burn with my pally's amends. Duufuss lvl70 pallyDuffus lvl70 wizEverfrost <div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-13-2006, 08:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rtwitty wrote: An update on my experience with wizzy v warlock. In our MOA4 raid last night the warlock was constantly drawing agro on the multi mob encounters so he took my wiz's place in main group amended to our pally tank. I throttled way back and everything went pretty well until the last encounter. My new stategey all dots to begin, no catalyst no freehand and no fusion. On our trys on the Guardian my wiz didnt cast nova until nearly a minute in the fight. First encounter the warlocks dps 596 mine 578. We wipe at 3% which my wiz could probably have made up at full burn. Second try Warlocks dps 464 my wiz 496. On my third nova over 3 min into the encounter I draw agro and we wipe at 23%. With a total wipe the raid is called. In future raids I will be playing my pally if the warlock is being used to try to hold agro. My pally can do a major percentage of the damage my throttled back wiz is doing can also heal, rez to full health, and at least one of our other dps could be going full burn with my pally's amends. Duufuss lvl70 pally Duffus lvl70 wiz Everfrost <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> wow you need more hate gain on your main tank (dirge or coercer) and/or hate reducers on you. Last moa 4 raid I averaged for the whole zone 1400 dps, doing under 500 dps (for a wizard) is some serious hate problems with the raid set up.

MeridianR

07-13-2006, 09:27 PM

Or a Troub in the caster group would help with hate <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Another thing you could do (and this needs to be timed well) is make sure the Paladin (or heck even another fighter in the raid) rescues the mob off of you when you cast Ice Nova (or Fusion, whatever) if you believe you will get aggro. If you use Voice comms, just let a tank (as stated doesn't need to be the MT, could be an OT that has a good position) know that Ice Nova is coming, and then can be prepared to get aggro off. If you blow Ice Nova when say the paladin doesn't have any taunts up due to recasts, it is going to be impossible for him to pry the mob off of you after you hit Ice Nova (if you get aggro).<div></div>

duuf

07-13-2006, 10:00 PM

Yah illu that was about half my optimal output. My point is that a multi target specialist cannot throw enough hate to the pally for anywhere near a full burn by single target dps on the main target. I'm talking to the raid leaders about it but there are friendship issues, thus my frustration and my decison to pull my wiz from future raids. Duffus lvl 70 wizDuufuss lvl 70 pallyEverfrost<div></div>

Raidi Sovin'faile

07-15-2006, 02:46 AM

Thats interesting that you have different results, When I spike to that high and the MT goes down the mob comes straight for me. I think the order that the buffs are on the person may make the difference. Being that you are the one I'm talking about in my example, I find that strange! As I recall, the MT went down, then the Pally, then the Conjuror... you weren't high on the hitlist at all... and going by any other reduction it would seem like you'd at least be right up there with the Conjuror. Either that or they were so quick on rezzing you that I didn't see it! However... it is possible that it's just a factor of how Amends might have been taking it's portion first (and thus sticking poor Hak on the chopping block before anyone else). As I recall, he wasn't doing any taunts... so it had to be ~1k hate being stolen from you. More and more I wish the devs would let us know how % Hate deaggros really works in this game. They've fessed up to everything else!Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on 07-14-2006 05:47 PM

IllusiveThoughts

07-15-2006, 04:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raidi Sovin'faile wrote: Thats interesting that you have different results, When I spike to that high and the MT goes down the mob comes straight for me. I think the order that the buffs are on the person may make the difference. Being that you are the one I'm talking about in my example, I find that strange! As I recall, the MT went down, then the Pally, then the Conjuror... you weren't high on the hitlist at all... and going by any other reduction it would seem like you'd at least be right up there with the Conjuror. Either that or they were so quick on rezzing you that I didn't see it! However... it is possible that it's just a factor of how Amends might have been taking it's portion first (and thus sticking poor Hak on the chopping block before anyone else). As I recall, he wasn't doing any taunts... so it had to be ~1k hate being stolen from you. More and more I wish the devs would let us know how % Hate deaggros really works in this game. They've fessed up to everything else! Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on 07-14-2006 05:47 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> hrm, I do know that with the coercer and paly and troub I tended to live a whole lot more. I guess i wasn't paying attention when hak went down or not. I was watching naldir to see if he got rezzed and we recovered or if I'd have to evac. I do know with just amends if the MT goes down depending on how much dps the paly was doing either I'd go down or the paly then me. Now that I think about it It makes sense the way pinski and you described especially with the troub and coercer deagros (63% additional de-agro) in that the transfers go off first then the rest is de-agroed by the user. I wonder if we can apply the same logic to hate increasers? like if we have an assasin doing 1400 dps transferring 30% of his hate to the mt with 51% passive hate gain, that would mean the mt is getting 420 base + 214 hate increasers for a total transfer of 634 dps of hate, and then add in his raid dps of about 700 + 51%=1057 + 634 = 1691 not counting taunt dps and buff / debuff dps either. on that 2600 parse that means i was shoehorning hak 1066 dps of hate, and i was only getting 567 worth of dps hate. Poor hak.....