Huge Aggro Problems on Raids.

[The Ban]

<DIV>Hello I have an alt 62 wizard on the PvP servers. Today we did the gates. To say the least I was having huge aggro problems. Our tanks was a 66 Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The MT group was Guardian,Defiler,Inquisitor,Fury,Dirge,Coercer. On the PvE servers I am also a raid officer for my guild and help to organize group setups study parses ect. and this seems to be a very good setup for giving the tank aggro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My group was Wizard,Troubador,Warlock,Fury,Assassin,Dirge. Even with all this aggro help I still pulled aggro on every single named in the zone except for one and died everytime. Actually there was one named I managed to survive on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway I was really never one of the top on the parser because of this. I would be doing around 800 or so DPS at the time i swiped aggro at which point the mob was at like 50% and then get rezed when the mob was at like 20%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most fights because of the deaths I would end up 6th or 7th on the parser with about 450 DPS. (Yes I know that is crap for being lvl 62)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The one fight I managed to live the entire fight I actually got 1067 DPS on a Named that lasted 2:38 and got 1st on the parser. Yet that was one encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The wizards in my PvE guild hardly ever steal aggro, so why am I?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My casting order is very conservative so that I don't draw too much attention, yet I still get unwanted attention. It looks like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rending Icicles...Protoferno...Fiery move...Surging Tempest...Fiery convulsions,cease... Cremate (mob usually AoEs pet about now), run in cast Forge of Ro...protoferno... Concussive,Freehand/Ice Comet...Ball of Incineration...Sunstrike...Incapacitate...Sunstrik e...Ball of Incerneration,Sunstrike...Cremate...Rending Icicles...Cease...Sunstrike...Ball of Incineration...Sunstrike...Concussive...Incapacita te...Sunstrike...Ball of Incineration...Sunstrike...Fiery convulsions...Protoferno...Rending icicles...Sunstrike...Ball of Incineration...Cease...Ice Comet...Cremate...Sunstrike...Incapacitate....Suns trike...Freehand/Ball of Incineration...Sunstrike...Forge of Ro...Cremate...Sunstrike...Ball of Incineration...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not exactly like that but it is very close. That combo gained me aggro on every named but 1 and got me killed. The one fight I managed to live it gave me 1067 DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Luckily I just Cease Master I for 2p, but I still fear the problem will only get worse as I get Fusion/Ice Nova and Scribe My master I ball of lava.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Luna Ithil]

You should be pretty well off with a troub in your group, their agrosong is pretty nice. Thou i have heard that there might be some porblem with troub and dirges manasongs not stacking. So the dirge might cancel the troubs song. If that dont work:Make sure that there is a dirge in the MT groupGet robe of the skywatcherGet your MT as many master taunts as you got nukesIf that dont work:Cry a bit, and then repsec to the int aa line <div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Luna Ithil wrote:<BR>You should be pretty well off with a troub in your group, their agrosong is pretty nice. Thou i have heard that there might be some porblem with troub and dirges manasongs not stacking. So the dirge might cancel the troubs song. <BR><BR>If that dont work:<BR>Make sure that there is a dirge in the MT group<BR>Get robe of the skywatcher<BR>Get your MT as many master taunts as you got nukes<BR><BR>If that dont work:<BR>Cry a bit, and then repsec to the int aa line <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>he said a dirge was in the MT group AND a coercer.  thats over 70% hate gain on the tank and at least 30% hate reduction on him from the troubador.</P> <P> </P> <P>It may be related to the auto attack bug they're looking into, where the weapon isn't firing during the refresh of ca's when you chain them.  This will lower dps especially of a tank who is chaining combat arts to try to do as much dps in between taunts, since the auto attack will never fire, thats a good 10-30% of a mele's dps that got taken away (temporarily)</P> <P> </P> <P>For reference last night I helped again with MOA raid and MT only had an assasin for hate gain, I was pulling 14-1500 dps without pulling agro on the named encounters.</P>

[Luna Ithil]

oki so from now on i will actualy read the posts before replying to them  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But ya, that must be a bug issue.<div></div>

[slippery]

Or the tank was just really slacking*shrug*<div></div>

[lubu1977]

<P>I recommend u go with int line which helps your aggro control greatly. Think about it, y scout like assassine, swash, brid or ranger dont draw aggro as much but still do massive damage? cuz they have divert spells and aggro transfer. Well int line for wiz is just working like that, but u still do good damage.  I was ranked 3 or 4 on raid most of the time when we have assassine, warlock, conj, ranger and swash in raid. Being top dps on parse in raid is not that important. Imporant thing is u do your job and no aggro drawn from u which might wipe out the whole raid.</P> <P>I personally like int line alot cuz I never draw aggro and do some stupid things. Before going to int line, I was top 1 or 2 on parse but I died alot. I hate dying although it won't matter at lvl 70. However, i'm the mage leader in my guild so I have to show I can manage my aggro.</P><p>Message Edited by lubu1977 on <span class=date_text>06-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> canoppener wrote:<BR>Or the tank was just really slacking<BR><BR>*shrug*<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>could also be the change to ice sheild not giving the tank hate anymore when it procs.</P> <P>If you think about it that was a lot of hate if it proc'ed all 3 times especially on a pull and with hate increasing aa's and buffs</P> <P>like say coercer + dirge x 3 procs at average of 800 x 3 = 2400 initial with the multipliyer of 80% additional hate equalling 4320 points of hate before the full taunt rotation, and another 5-6k of hate from taunts you could pretty much ice nova or fusion once all 3 procs fired.</P> <P>Now we just parse higher at the cost of that versatility.<BR></P>

[Orwandil]

<P><FONT color=#ff9933>Hey Illusive,</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Are you certain that Iceshield no longer generates hate for the tank?  I know the damage is attributed to the caster, but I don't recall it being stated that it would no longer generate hate for the Tank as well...  That would make it essentially an "agro-free" spell, except for the minimal agro generated towards the caster for the buff, right?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Thanks for the clarification.</FONT> </P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orwandil wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Hey Illusive,</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Are you certain that Iceshield no longer generates hate for the tank?  I know the damage is attributed to the caster, but I don't recall it being stated that it would no longer generate hate for the Tank as well...  That would make it essentially an "agro-free" spell, except for the minimal agro generated towards the caster for the buff, right?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Thanks for the clarification.</FONT> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes hate does not get applied to who ever procs it, and the hate from the proc does not get assigned to the wizard either.  </P> <P>Its not agro free by any means, and I wish they would of said how much hate the buff gives but im sure its less than an equivilant type of dmg spell like ball of lava</P> <P>simple way for you to test that hate doesn't get assigned to the caster or recippient</P> <P>cast frost sheild on self</P> <P>pull very very low green mob with one auto attack swing, let all 3 proc's go off, cast protoferno, dumbfire pet will pull agro once his first mele attack hits.</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

I have huge aggro problem after Lu24. Our MT (sk) is always with a dirge, and Im always with a troubador. But if there are 2 or more targets in an encounter, I AE = I die. My AE casting order = forge -> firestorm -> frigid gift -> GW -> EF -> firestorm... I dont even use fusion. Before Lu24, I usually didnt die... but now this is a guaranteed death. Sometimes I even die before I can finish one AE cycle. My raid leader is upset about me keep dying. I think if I cant fix this problem... I might get replaced soon since assassins can do higher dps (if I dont AE) and not die so often <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> I have huge aggro problem after Lu24. Our MT (sk) is always with a dirge, and Im always with a troubador. But if there are 2 or more targets in an encounter, I AE = I die. My AE casting order = forge -> firestorm -> frigid gift -> GW -> EF -> firestorm... I dont even use fusion. Before Lu24, I usually didnt die... but now this is a guaranteed death. Sometimes I even die before I can finish one AE cycle. My raid leader is upset about me keep dying. I think if I cant fix this problem... I might get replaced soon since assassins can do higher dps (if I dont AE) and not die so often <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I noticed this problem too QQ on a recent raid with another guild MT who just happened to be a zerker.</P> <P>It was a MOA raid i was assisting with and on the 2 epic x3 encounters that are down the left hand side (not counting the single roamers) I'd pull agro after using glacial winds and forge of ro.</P> <P>It turned out that on the 2 mob encounters he wasn't doing anything more to the mob that wasn't targeted other than one aoe taunt, and buring his dps and taunts on the mob he had targeted.</P> <P>So I talked to him for a bit and we worked out that he would try to get another aoe or two in (since he said they're on long cast timers) after his single target taunt's were down.</P> <P>so I ended up assisting him for a good 10 seconds at the start of the fight, using single target nukes and what not, then put down FOR and start using glacial winds.  It seemed to work and I ended up with only 4 deaths for the entire raid.</P> <P>I also raid quite frequenty with an SK and he frequenty only has a coercer for hate gain.  He knows how to put out some serious dps with his sk (can top 1k dps on aoe encounters as MT)and I dont have any issues aoeing with for, frost bound gift, glacial winds, and firey inferno by the time the mobs are into aoe range.</P> <P>I usually do not have a troubador either, for instance last night on a lyceum raid I only had a guardian's 33% (adp3) de-agro on me for the aoe encounters and didn't pull agro once.</P> <P>In short give your MT a good lashing and work out with him what his normal ca line up is so you and he can benefit from extra aoe dps.</P>

[Brockaine2]

<DIV>To the OP...with that setup your main tank was probably slacking big time or there was a major bug going on. My guild never runs a coercer + dirge in mt group and we only got 1 troub atm so at least 1 or 2 of our wizards normally go without deagro but we don't have any agro problems so dunno how much I can help you there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A bit off topic tho, after you figure out the agro issue you might wanna go for a bit different spell order. I'd say for sure get ball of lava in the rotation sooner. Its our bread and butter and its not nearly as dangerous as nova or fusion. Also use sunstrike less. In a raid situation where dots will have full effect even Fiery convulsions is a better spell then sunstrike. It casts faster and the average dmg is about the same if not higher then sunstrike which means more dps. Also don't use cease so early. You really don't need to use a deagro before you cast any decent size nukes. I'd say something like...ball of lava -->cease --> ice nova --> concussive --> fiery convulsions (to get that concussive off real quick without more agro. I like a combo like that midway thro fights and i think it works especially well about 15-20 seconds into a mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhoo thats just my 2c.</DIV>

[TheBu]

<P>If your Forge of Ro gets kiled you get  agro...</P> <P>question is who killing u?  the one the mt is on? on not on? I bet it is a mob they are not on. Was it the aoes stuff that might have got ya</P> <P> </P> <P>ps why a Defiler (debuffer) and no templar(buffer)?</P> <P>and was the dirge in ur group happy with u? har har...</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN>  <P><SPAN class=time_text>another ps:  I think ice shield has always work the same way.  It is a proc that genrated agro to the caster. yet parser thinks the tank does the damge.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I have a iceshield master..   and i can tell u it has allways genrated hate for me when it procs.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by TheBuzZ on <span class=date_text>06-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 AM</span>

[Nightwo|f]

I haven't had any new agro issues. On last nights raid (ToS+LoA) I was able to do 1000+ DPS using primarily AOEs (forge,glacial winds, flash, firestorm, etc) on the three group trash mobs in LoA without pulling agro (guardian mt + dirge/coercer, me grouped with a troub). Though I don't have my laptop at the office with me so I can't check my ACT parses, but I don't think the forge is counting towards my DPS due to the log entry changes on spell casting dumbfires in LU24.Also they changed it so stationary dumbfires (such as forge) generate hate toward the caster, not dumbfire itself. So the forge shouldn't ever get agro directly (but I haven't tested this myself), it will still die to barrages and such though.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nightwo|f wrote:<BR>I haven't had any new agro issues. On last nights raid (ToS+LoA) I was able to do <BR><BR>Also they changed it so stationary dumbfires (such as forge) generate hate toward the caster, not dumbfire itself. So the forge shouldn't ever get agro directly (but I haven't tested this myself), it will still die to barrages and such though.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I thought I heard that somewhere else I've gotta test this out, that may be why it was getting me agro on the last MOA raid with the zerker tank.</P> <P>IF thats the case it needs to change, or thats just another nerf along with the rest of the FOR nerfs in its long nerfage history.</P> <P>I do know that protoferno will count as my dps so long as i /petname charname on act.  I just d'led it last night so I can start keeping my own parses and not relying on others</P>

[Nightwo|f]

yea I'm pretty sure Protoferno counts towards the casters DPS. I think the issue is that dumbfires that cast spells, like:Blah's Forge of Ro's Engulfing Fires of Ro hits somemob for X amount of damageI think the problem might be the second apostrophe, which isn't in the log from protoferno since it just hits, doesn't cast spells.The dumbfire agro change is good and bad, depending on how you look at it. Good for soloing/grouping, since you can put it down and not worry about it getting agro and dieing immediately (if you cast it first, or having a wandering come by and smack it) and then having to wait to recast it. But the downside is the increase agro to the caster on groups of mobs, previously the forge's hate would be split off as a second entry on the hate list (reducing your chances of getting agro), but now it adds to your hate.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nightwo|f wrote:<BR>yea I'm pretty sure Protoferno counts towards the casters DPS. I think the issue is that dumbfires that cast spells, like:<BR><BR>Blah's Forge of Ro's Engulfing Fires of Ro hits somemob for X amount of damage<BR><BR>I think the problem might be the second apostrophe, which isn't in the log from protoferno since it just hits, doesn't cast spells.<BR><BR>The dumbfire agro change is good and bad, depending on how you look at it. Good for soloing/grouping, since you can put it down and not worry about it getting agro and dieing immediately (if you cast it first, or having a wandering come by and smack it) and then having to wait to recast it. But the downside is the increase agro to the caster on groups of mobs, previously the forge's hate would be split off as a second entry on the hate list (reducing your chances of getting agro), but now it adds to your hate.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I find it funny that with lu24 our agro abilities actually got worse when you factor in the frost sheild nerf and now forge of ro's nerf.</P> <P>and soe in their infinate wisdom gives us a [Removed for Content] puny less than 1k average 500 dehate on a 25s timer to counter balance that.</P> <P>what a croc.</P>

[Bright_Morn]

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div><p>I find it funny that with lu24 our agro abilities actually got worse when you factor in the frost sheild nerf and now forge of ro's nerf.</p> <p>and soe in their infinate wisdom gives us a [Removed for Content] puny less than 1k average 500 dehate on a 25s timer to counter balance that.</p> <p>what a croc.</p><hr></blockquote>Did we ever get confirmation on where the hate goes now for Frost Sheild?  I mean all we know is that the hate does not get applied to the wizard (also seems to be using the wizards intelegance, instead of the tanks now as well).</div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BrightMorn wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>I find it funny that with lu24 our agro abilities actually got worse when you factor in the frost sheild nerf and now forge of ro's nerf.</P> <P>and soe in their infinate wisdom gives us a [Removed for Content] puny less than 1k average 500 dehate on a 25s timer to counter balance that.</P> <P>what a croc.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Did we ever get confirmation on where the hate goes now for Frost Sheild?  I mean all we know is that the hate does not get applied to the wizard (also seems to be using the wizards intelegance, instead of the tanks now as well).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>hate doesn't go anywhere, the procs generate 0 hate.</P> <P>The only hate generated is the casting of the buff on another player.</P> <P>They "do" have the ability to reduce hate on spells, especially since we know healing is less than 1-1 like dmg is to hate.  I'll go out on a limb and assume they put the hate value for this spell to 0, and I can confirm if you pre-cast this spell on a tank you will not enter combat when it procs, and if said tank dies before you cast a spell you will not die either.</P>

[R2Chie]

Sounds like the tank sucked... dirge AND a coercer both giving hate buffs and STILL losing agro?? blame the tank for being crap. Sorry but its true. <div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> R2Chief2 wrote:<BR>Sounds like the tank sucked...<BR><BR>dirge AND a coercer both giving hate buffs and STILL losing agro??<BR><BR>blame the tank for being crap. Sorry but its true. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>okay I was able to confirm the Forge of Ro nerf.</P> <P>The pet will no longer generate his own hate list.  I tested it against grey's to white solo mobs and none of them even using a de-agro ever turned on the pet.</P> <P>This is bad news for wizards (like me) who used to put out Forge of ro early in a fight for the 1K heat de-buff.</P> <P>This lil sucker has gone from a great spell (at one time was a ^^ pet) to reduced to next to nothing.  He will draw aoe agro (only it turns on you not forge) pretty darn easiliy now so remember to not put down the pet so early.  I'm going to hope the devs put his own hate list back.</P>

[TheBu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>hate doesn't go anywhere, the procs generate 0 hate.</P> <P>The only hate generated is the casting of the buff on another player.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It seemed to me the hate did go to the wiz before the update.</P> <P>I could rarely cast it before the encounter if the mob hits the tank i will get agro. Have not tested resently post theupdate...</P> <P>I also seen then the proc go off during the fight and got me agroed. example would be a cast before the encounter.  tank resist couple of hit. but then tank gets hit.  and 1k damage per hit with agro to me...</P> <P> </P> <P>TheBuzz</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by TheBuzZ on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 AM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheBuzZ wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>hate doesn't go anywhere, the procs generate 0 hate.</P> <P>The only hate generated is the casting of the buff on another player.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It seemed to me the hate did go to the wiz before the update.</P> <P>I could rarely cast it before the encounter if the mob hits the tank i will get agro. Have not tested resently post theupdate...</P> <P>I also seen then the proc go off during the fight and got me agroed. example would be a cast before the encounter.  tank resist couple of hit. but then tank gets hit.  and 1k damage per hit with agro to me...</P> <P> </P> <P>TheBuzz</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by TheBuzZ on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>not sure what your doing to get you agro, but like i've said I can cast this before a tank pulls (even raid tanks) and have me do 0 (zero) damage after that and it wont enter me into combat and I wont get agro and die even if the MT wipes.</P> <P>are you sure your not casting it when the tank pulls?</P>