Manashield AND frost shield nerfed in a huge way. Since no one read the notes.

[PurpleLlama]

<div></div>Don't have any hard numbers, but was using it today in instances and mobs were chewing through 8k mana in about 2 or 3 hits. Seems nerfed to uselessness now.Sigh. Along with the ice shield nerf [Removed for Content] me off.<div></div><p>Message Edited by PurpleLlama on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 AM</span>

[Brigh]

What are you talking about?Iceshield nerf? Just attributes damage to wiz but no hate to wiz.

[Mareth]

Isn't it supposed to transfer all your health damage to power? I've got no problems at all finding a heroic mob that can chew through 8k of wizzie flesh in a few seconds, so it makes sense for me.<div></div>

[Jezekie]

<div><blockquote><hr>LordSarig wrote:Isn't it supposed to transfer all your health damage to power? I've got no problems at all finding a heroic mob that can chew through 8k of wizzie flesh in a few seconds, so it makes sense for me.<div></div><hr></blockquote>That's the description of it yeah. Been holding off putting down my last few points wether for that ability or rest in wisdom. Anyone else want to share their two cents on it post LU#24?</div>

[Landaros]

Do I mix something up or why does Lamas post make me think that he is talking about Diablo2?<div></div>

[PurpleLlama]

<div></div><div></div>Ice shield no longer gives hate to the tank. That's a huge nerf. Did you not read the notes?edit: here's the pertinent line Wizard: Coldshield: Damage is attributed to the Wizard, but it does not generate any hate toward the Wizard.Yes folks, we got a new deaggro, but we took a FAR greater hit in our ability to keep a mob off us. It's a major nerf. Before the damage was attributed to a tank and was basically our aggro transfer spell. We lost that and got a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty tongue twist that will do what, make up for one sun strike's worth of hate?Manashield was nerfed in that the numbers you end up taking are inflated from what you'd physically take. I could take as many hits with 4k hp as 8k mana, sometimes more. Normal heroics do not hit me for 3k ever, yet they absolutely destroy manashield. Hell, ANY mob now chews through manashield like it was nothing. It used to give some semblance of survivability but now ends up lasting as long as frost shield used to.<div></div><p>Message Edited by PurpleLlama on <span class="date_text">06-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:07 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by PurpleLlama on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:14 AM</span>

[Mareth]

It says the wizard doesn't get hate, while the damage shows up as the wizzies. Where do you think the hate ends up? A black hole?I'd assume that the aggro is still going where it used to, has anyone tested this before crying 'nerf'?<div></div>

[PurpleLlama]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>It's clear what they did and what they meant, and exactly what that wording means.  We all know, or should, that previously the damage was attributed to the tank and the subsequent aggro of doing 2 or 3k damage. Now that damage is not attributed to the tank, but to the wizard; however the hate value is nil for the spell.The hate no longer goes to the tank. Nor does it add aggro to the wizard. It is a neutral aggro spell. Go test it if you want. Drop a frost shield on a tank, have him aggro the mob but not hit it or use any abilities, wait for shield to go off, then plasma strike. I guess what we learned here is that no one reads patch notes.We ended up trading 3k of pre-castable aggro transfer for a 700 aggro reduction spell that probably causes almost as much aggro with the stifle as it clears.<div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by PurpleLlama on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 AM</span>

[Renaven]

<DIV>You're the first person I've met who actually cares enough about Iceshield attributing damage to the tank, over what it does now.  Pre-LU, it was an absolute waste of time casting this spell during a fight (most would only use it pre-pull) because it lowers your personal DPS.  I would much rather have it remain neutral and attribute its damage towards us, then have it back to the way it used to be.  Iceshield is now one of the most efficient forms of damage that we have.  Before it was too -- however it would show up as the tank's damage, not the Wizard's.  Though I wouldn't mind it giving our tank hate -- if they wanted to add that in on top of what it does now, then I'd be all for that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Renaven on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 PM</span>

[PurpleLlama]

<div></div>It lowers your DPS on your little DPS meter, but in the real world it's a fast cast 2-3k damage spell that also adds aggro to the tank. It's not my fault if you don't know how to use your abilities or care more about what you're really contributing to the group or raid.Here's a hint; it's our best DPS spell that we have. 1 second cast 2400-3000 damage, more if you've got a brig.If you don't have a clue, don't hate those who do.edit; what the hell? Your post is schizophrenic. NOTHING else was changed with the spell except that the tank does not get aggro from it. Yet this patch made it from a horrible waste of time to something that is now or best most efficient damage? Oh, that's because it counts it towards you on the parsers now instead of counting it toward's the tank's. Oh my bad, I actually cared about my real functionality versus my fake functionality on the advanced combat tracker.Anyways, here's another hint; you won't be able to use your primary nukes as much as you would have if this was still giving aggro to the tank. Maybe that will mean something to you.<div></div><p>Message Edited by PurpleLlama on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[Renaven]

<DIV>Actually it does more on the lines of 4000-4500 damage a cast.  And I find it funny that you assume I don't know how to play my class.  It's probably not even worth my time to try to defend myself against someone who obviously has no clue who I am.  Iceshield adding hate to the tank is nice, but I find it boggling that you would rather have that, then to have the damage added to your own.  I guess you aren't in a high-end guild who constantly pits you against every other class on the parser in a competition-driven environment.  Oh well - I've said enough.</DIV>

[Renaven]

<DIV>And for the record: it's obviously very nice to have the hate added to the tank.  I would love for them to add that.  But from a damage point of view, if I had to choose to either 1. have it not add damage to the Wizard, and add hate to the tank, or 2. have it add damage to the Wizard, but add no hate to anyone - I would choose #2 any day of the weak.  If you have aggro problems, stick in an Assassin and Coercer in the MT group.</DIV>

[PurpleLlama]

<div></div><div></div>No, I'm in a guild that has a clue and realizes how effective frostshield is. When the guardian is parsing 500-1000 DPS they know who the hell that DPS is coming from and it sure as hell ain't his sword and board. They also know that that damage is allowing THEM to do more damage and that the net effect on the raid was huge when you had a couple wizards working together, such that every time the tank is hit the mob takes 1k damage attributed to the tank.Iceshield was never a waste of time. Never, ever. If you've only run into wizards who don't care about it, I pity your server. It was always our best, most efficient damage. You agree on that, yet because it wasn't attributed to your name on ACT it was worthless. Yet a purely cosmetic change in parsing makes you want to use it when you never did before, whereas before when it was far more powerful but without the purely cosmetic change it wasn't worthwhile. Right. I'm sure your guild is lucky to have you. I can't believe that you're for real.That's ignoring the functionality in single groups where the tank has far less aggro aids and won't always be a guardian. Which affects more people by far than it not showing up by your name on ACT. By the way, I like how you basically call me a noob. Pot and kettle.Back to the actual issue.<p>Message Edited by PurpleLlama on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[Renaven]

<DIV>Actually if you were smart you would have your Wizards cast Iceshield before every pull pre-LU, to generate free hate for the tank without wasting time doing it during the fight.  I don't know, or really care, what guild you're in, but you obviously must have some serious aggro issues with your Main Tank if you're forced to cast this spell every single time it's up, wasting a good 8-10 seconds during a fight depending on how many times you cast it.  We've never had such a problem, and if we did I would have used the spell more.  I've never denied that it's not a good spell.  I simply said that if it did not attribute its damage to me, then I would mainly only cast it pre-pull so I don't lose personal damage.  I've also never denied that it's a very efficient way to keep aggro on your tank pre-LU, as it adds 4000-4500 damage to the tank every 20 seconds.  I, however, would not use it as much as you may use it because I am constantly competing with other Wizards, Conjurers, Brigands, Necromancers and Assassins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, I do believe my guild is lucky to have me - and I don't mean that in an arrogant way.  Having someone who can consistently pull out 1400-1900 single-target DPS, and even more AE DPS every fight is always a big plus, for any guild.  </DIV>

[Renaven]

<DIV>And for the sake of discussion I hope we're on the same subject regarding the fact that I am only referring to raiding situations.  In grouping situations pre-LU, I would use Iceshield all the time.  Every time it pops up.  But we aren't talking about grouping here -- at least I'm not.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<P>I would have to see this as a nerf to the spell as well.</P> <P> </P> <P>the spell was good for giving a little bit more nuking power to bad tanks, or helping a conj/nec pet hold agro better,</P> <P>or helping the MT with keeping hate on a raid pull with prewards, or if the tank is stunned, or stifled.</P> <P>The spell was a great utility in the raiding wizards arsenal, even if it lowered your dps, it still did the dps, the only change now is that it will take into account your intelligence when it procs, instead of the tanks, so it will put out slightly higher dmg.</P> <P>The trade off for looking better on a parser isn't worth the hate not being given to the tank.  In the end what matters is if the mob dies and the group/raid lives.  Parsers only suit large egos and e-peeners.</P>

[Bethin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Renaven wrote:<BR> <DIV>And for the record: it's obviously very nice to have the hate added to the tank.  I would love for them to add that.  But from a damage point of view, if I had to choose to either 1. have it not add damage to the Wizard, and add hate to the tank, or 2. have it add damage to the Wizard, but add no hate to anyone - I would choose #2 any day of the weak.  If you have aggro problems, stick in an Assassin and Coercer in the MT group.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You would choose getting credit in a stupid parser over what is actually better for the raid?  Nice team work.

[Renaven]

<DIV>Yeah, I would like them to change it so it gives hate to the tank.  I feedbacked that.  Ultimately I think it just comes down to your group makeups, which will determine your need for this spell.  Our best Main Tank is always on, and we're almost always able to put a Coercer and Assassin in the MT group, plus our MT has a lot of items which proc taunt -- aggro is usually never an issue even when we go balls-to-the-wall on DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we didn't have any of those, I would have definitely casted the spell more - but I wasn't willing to take the hit to my personal DPS at the time, when our tank never loses aggro in the first place.  If he lost aggro a lot more, then I'd have to use it a lot more to help the raid.  That's all I was getting at.  The net gain of this spell for my guild pre-LU is a little extra DPS for the raid and some extra hate for the tank, so I do agree it's a good spell to use.  But like I said earlier, it depends on the guild you're in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Certain guilds don't use parsers at all, and I sometimes envy them because it promotes less balls-to-the-wall maneuvers by people to achieve top DPS on the parse.  (though that's sometimes a good thing, in a DPS fight for example) However when you're in a guild that parses every fight, and does zone-wide parses for almost every zone, and competes in every way possible, then it's hard to use a spell so often that generates no personal damage for the Wizard.  So in the end it really just comes down to personal needs and needs from your guild.  And I don't have a problem with that - competition promotes smarter/more active playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless, I would like to see them change it so it adds hate to the tank, but it's not as big of a deal to me as it may be to others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Renaven]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bethinna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Renaven wrote:<BR> <DIV>And for the record: it's obviously very nice to have the hate added to the tank.  I would love for them to add that.  But from a damage point of view, if I had to choose to either 1. have it not add damage to the Wizard, and add hate to the tank, or 2. have it add damage to the Wizard, but add no hate to anyone - I would choose #2 any day of the weak.  If you have aggro problems, stick in an Assassin and Coercer in the MT group.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You would choose getting credit in a stupid parser over what is actually better for the raid?  Nice team work.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You, like every other person who has posted here so far except maybe Illusive, is misinformed.  Why would you use a spell that generates no damage for you but adds hate to the tank when your tank 99% of the time doesn't lose aggro? Our guild is probably not like yours.  While your tank may struggle to keep aggro when people are doing 1500+ DPS, ours doesn't.  At least not usually.  It's gotten to the point where it's not even worth arguing any more.  It's a nice spell pre-LU.  It's still a nice spell now.  Not to sound arrogant, but I think our multiple Worldfirsts on Mutagenic, Tarinax, Djinn Master and so forth prove that we have nice team work.  </DIV>

[PurpleLlama]

<div></div>Let me say (type) this very slowly. Using frostshield would not lower your DPS, but raise it. Only fusion has a better single target DPS:unit of your time when compared to frost shield. By constantly using frost shield as much as possible you are only increasing your DPS unles your other options were a freehand and catalyzed ice nova or a fusion. And somehow I think you could work it in between those two spells.And of course we'd precast, no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? We were just smart (and our guild was) enough to realize that the total DPS of the raid was only going up (BECAUSE AGGRO NEVER MATTERS!) even if you individual DPS was going down minutely by taking that 1 second to cast frostshield.I'm on a PVP server. Think about how that may affect things and then get back to me with your snide jabs. I don't have a full tier 7 decked out tank to come tank for me in tier 7 because we're just scratching it. We can't buy our guardian masters off of the broker, they're all squirrelled away just like we do ours. We have no illusionists, templars, mystics, rangers, paladins, swashbucklers etc. except the ones who are dead at our feet. Our gear is probably worse than is available on some brokers on some of the established servers (maybe not, not sure how much is droppable in tier 7 raiding). And we're in the best gear by far for our faction.There'll be a "BUT PVP ARGHHH" response, but this hurts wizards everywhere in actual real capability, and will hurt wizards on any new servers that open. Because unlike SuperWizard(TM) in many fights, for many people, aggro does matter. We can't all be SuperWizards(TM).I find it funny, though, that your drive for maximizing DPS to help the raid (or your vanity) you actually lowered it, even ignoring any aggro benefits (because aggro is completely irrelevant and aggro is never lost on anything at all whatsoever even mobs that wipe aggro or have high aggro decary rates or partial memory wipes or what have you, no aggro never does matter unless you're stupid!!) That, no matter how you look at it, is stupid. But that number on that window of the ACT, now THAT's important.<div></div><p>Message Edited by PurpleLlama on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:23 PM</span>

[Renaven]

<DIV>You missed the point where I said it depends on your guild.  I should have also said it depends on your server.  While the change in Iceshield may have been huge for your guild and your server, it was not for mine.  And I have no problem with that.  I too would like them to have hate go to the tank to help guilds/servers like yours that are not full-fabled and such, and, to a lesser extent, help guilds like mine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: I also never remember saying our tank never loses aggro.  I believe I said our tank 99% of the time doesn't lose aggro.  We sometimes don't have a Coercer on, or even an Assassin, and those are the times when I'll pull aggro some of the time on multi-mob fights where I crit/freehand Fusion.  Even with a Coercer/Assassin, I still sometimes pull aggro when I crit/freehand Fusion on multiple mobs.  But it's not the norm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, I fully realize that Iceshield is a very efficient form of doing damage.  I'm coming at this situation from a whole different perspective than you probably have.  Let me give you a quick insight on my perspective, though it may seem naive to you.  My guild finds almost every epic encounter in the entire game EASY.  Mutagenic Outcast we kill on the first try every time.  Tarinax the same.  Cruor the same.  Everything is easy for us now.  So, what keeps these fights interesting besides the loot, you might ask? We compete with one-another to see who can do the most damage.  I love competition and being the best -- that's why I joined NPU.  That's why I play Unreal Tournament 2004 1v1 professionally -- at international tournaments with big prizes (well, in the past, as there are no big tournaments for that game any more until Unreal Tournament 2007 comes out).  When we're learning new fights, I certainly hold back on my damage and cast Iceshield whenever it's up (Pre-LU) because I have no idea what the mob is going to do.  In all of my posts up until this point, though, I've only been talking about everything in the game aside from the new Fallen Dynasty AP -- stuff that we've done and beaten for months now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize some people may not share my drive for competition, which is why I am agreeing with you in the fact that I too would like to see the hate from Iceshield go to the tank.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Renaven on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Renaven wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Certain guilds don't use parsers at all, and I sometimes envy them because it promotes less balls-to-the-wall maneuvers by people to achieve top DPS on the parse.  (though that's sometimes a good thing, in a DPS fight for example) However when you're in a guild that parses every fight, and does zone-wide parses for almost every zone, and competes in every way possible, then it's hard to use a spell so often that generates no personal damage for the Wizard.  So in the end it really just comes down to personal needs and needs from your guild.  And I don't have a problem with that - competition promotes smarter/more active playing.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Why dont you tell your guildmates to add the "frost spike" dps to your dps? It's not very hard to do... And I dont think you should only care about your personal dps. If everyone in raid does that, a chanter will never cast any buff on others, a summoner will never spend time to give others rod / heart, a healer will never heal... because these all lower their personal dps, and the raid will not kill anything.

[Xarov]

<DIV>Renaven tell blinks i say whut up !</DIV>

[Bethin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Renaven wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bethinna wrote:<BR> <BR>You, like every other person who has posted here so far except maybe Illusive, is misinformed.  Why would you use a spell that generates no damage for you but adds hate to the tank when your tank 99% of the time doesn't lose aggro? Our guild is probably not like yours.  While your tank may struggle to keep aggro when people are doing 1500+ DPS, ours doesn't.  At least not usually.  It's gotten to the point where it's not even worth arguing any more.  It's a nice spell pre-LU.  It's still a nice spell now.  Not to sound arrogant, but I think our multiple Worldfirsts on Mutagenic, Tarinax, Djinn Master and so forth prove that we have nice team work.  </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It has nothing to do with the tank keeping or loosing agro.  If a wizard uses the spell every time it refreshes he will still do the same dps as before the LU, he just didn't get credit for it.  Giving the tank hate is an added feature that has NO DOWN side.  Again, the net dps added to the raid when using the spell is not less.  It was only less in the parser.</P> <P>The only thing this change accomplished was making the wizards individual parser numbers go up when using the spell for the sake of aggro management.<BR></P>

[Renaven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Renaven wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Certain guilds don't use parsers at all, and I sometimes envy them because it promotes less balls-to-the-wall maneuvers by people to achieve top DPS on the parse.  (though that's sometimes a good thing, in a DPS fight for example) However when you're in a guild that parses every fight, and does zone-wide parses for almost every zone, and competes in every way possible, then it's hard to use a spell so often that generates no personal damage for the Wizard.  So in the end it really just comes down to personal needs and needs from your guild.  And I don't have a problem with that - competition promotes smarter/more active playing.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Why dont you tell your guildmates to add the "frost spike" dps to your dps? It's not very hard to do... And I dont think you should only care about your personal dps. If everyone in raid does that, a chanter will never cast any buff on others, a summoner will never spend time to give others rod / heart, a healer will never heal... because these all lower their personal dps, and the raid will not kill anything.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I wasn't aware that there was a way to do this.  I almost never use my parser -- instead, we have a few others who do it for us. Thanks for mentioning it though. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I also don't think I only care about my own damage, but it is one of the highest priorities I have while raiding.  I never want to ever give anyone the impression of me slacking -- I always want to be up there with the best, as I always try my best every pull we have.

[Bethin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Renaven wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> I never want to ever give anyone the impression of me slacking -- I always want to be up there with the best, as I always try my best every pull we have.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Honestly I don't think anyone who plays this game wants to give that impression either.  I think the whole point is that it is a shame that there are people who live and die by what a 3rd party parser says you are doing and this thinking has caused a great utility to a very good spell to be removed for the sake of showing up on the parser.<BR><p>Message Edited by Bethinna on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:42 PM</span>

[Renaven]

<DIV>I'm definitely not pushing for the hate addition part to the tank from Iceshield to be removed, if that's what you're implying.  I would happily welcome that feature back, as I would cast it on fights where mobs aggro wipe, and I would definitely cast it a lot in grouping situations.  I just didn't use it all the time pre-LU in a raiding situation.  That doesn't mean the people who find the hate addition portion of the spell beneficial should have to suffer.  Maybe if we keep feedbacking it they'll add that feature back. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Nightwo|f]

Since I don't think it was mentioned in the thread previously, 1 damage != 1 threat. What the ratio is exactly, I don't know. But I'm willing to bet that the 800ish threat reduction from Cease is greater in the end than 4k damage added to the tank in terms of who would be higher on the hate list of a mob.<p>Message Edited by Nightwo|f on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:32 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bethinna wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>It has nothing to do with the tank keeping or loosing agro.  If a wizard uses the spell every time it refreshes he will still do the same dps as before the LU, </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>actually pre lu24 when the spell would proc on dmg it would take into account the tanks int.  </P> <P>if you have a guardian/zerker as a MT for your raids you will see a slightly higher output from the spell takinginto account your intelligence and aa's (like brainstorm and crits)  Yes this spell does crit when it procs and have had it crit in a non raid setting for 1500 dmg at m1.</P> <P>if you had an sk or paly as the MT and they had a decent amount of int(for their spell dmg) then the change wont be that significant (damage output wise) when it starts counting your stats instead of theirs.<BR></P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nightwo|f wrote:<BR>Since I don't think it was mentioned in the thread previously, 1 damage != 1 threat. What the ratio is exactly, I don't know. But I'm willing to bet that the 800ish threat reduction from Cease is greater in the end than 4k damage added to the tank in terms of who would be higher on the hate list of a mob. <P>Message Edited by Nightwo|f on <SPAN class=date_text>06-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:32 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>threat works the same way as concussive, and thus de-hate and hate increasing spells are on a 1-1 basis.</P> <P>therefore the only part that we dont know is how much hate casting the buff while in combat draws when weighed against the total dmg output in terms of hate gained from the person procc'ing it.  If I understood the dev correctly all buffs /debuffs draw the same hate.  </P> <P>I can assure you that 4000pts of dmg can not be de-hated by a puny 1K de-hate, even if you have a troubador thats still 2400 pts of hate you get.</P>

[Mareth]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Nightwo|f wrote:Since I don't think it was mentioned in the thread previously, 1 damage != 1 threat. What the ratio is exactly, I don't know. But I'm willing to bet that the 800ish threat reduction from Cease is greater in the end than 4k damage added to the tank in terms of who would be higher on the hate list of a mob.<p>Message Edited by Nightwo|f on <span class="date_text">06-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:32 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078&query.id=0#M8078" target=_blank>Clicketyclick!</a>For the lazy ones, it's a link to a post where Lockeye says that 1 damage = 1 hate.</div><p>Message Edited by LordSarig on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:55 PM</span>

[curtlewis]

<div></div>Ok, I need to dispell some of the misconceptions about Iceshield here.It's not our best DPS.  It's not guaranteed to trigger 3 times, but even if it does, that's 3162/21.5 seconds or 147dps if it does.Make this comparison:3162 max dmg (w/o crits or debuffs) every 21.5 seconds IF it triggers all three times-vs-7232 max dmg (w/o crits or debufs) in 15.5 seconds from casting Ball of Lava twice.It is not accurate to calculate DPS based on casting time only.  It does no damage when you finish casting.  It only does damage when a mob hits the target.  The only time that works is for super short fights where you only cast any spell once.  And one cast of BoL > 1 cast of Ice Shield (both at Master 1 for these comparisons).A good tank won't get hit all the time.  Sometimes I cast Iceshield and it wears off without triggering all 3 hits.  As a matter of fact, that isn't uncommon at all.The aggro nerf is lame.  And they intentionally avoided mentioning it.  The hate NEVER went to the wiz before, but it DOESN'T go to the tank now, that's a nerf.The damage shouldn't go to the wizard unless they change EVERY damage shield to work that way.  Changing only ours is just smoke and mirrors to try and make wizards feel they're doing more DPS than before.  They aren't.<div></div><p>Message Edited by curtlewis on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 PM</span>

[curtlewis]

<div><blockquote><hr>LordSarig wrote:<div></div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078&query.id=0#M8078" target="_blank">Clicketyclick!</a>For the lazy ones, it's a link to a post where Lockeye says that 1 damage = 1 hate.</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, they said there were no more mobs that were immune quite a while back, too.  And yet immunities were supposedly again removed in this patch.  I don't believe them this time, either.I'm betting that different types of damage have a modifier that may be >1 or <1 to the amount of hate applied and that this modifier varies.</div>

[Renaven]

<DIV>Immunes still exist.  The flame monsters in Nizara gave me the "failure to inflict any damage" message when he was fully heat debuffed, and I'm sure that's not the only mobs who are immune to certain damage types.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Renaven wrote:<BR> <DIV>Immunes still exist.  The flame monsters in Nizara gave me the "failure to inflict any damage" message when he was fully heat debuffed, and I'm sure that's not the only mobs who are immune to certain damage types.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>try the green heroic mob that guards the pathway just past mystic lake, who sees invis, yeah immune to fire that one is.

[Worrick]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordSarig wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078&query.id=0#M8078" target=_blank>Clicketyclick!</A><BR><BR>For the lazy ones, it's a link to a post where Lockeye says that 1 damage = 1 hate.<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yeah, <FONT color=#ff3333>they said there were no more mobs that were immune quite a while back</FONT>, too.  And yet immunities were supposedly again removed in this patch.  <BR><BR>I don't believe them this time, either.<BR><BR>I'm betting that different types of damage have a modifier that may be >1 or <1 to the amount of hate applied and that this modifier varies.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>They never said no mobs would be immune: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=247" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=247</A></P> <P><STRONG>NPCs:<BR></STRONG>-<FONT color=#ff3300> Most</FONT> creatures are no longer immune to certain damage types. Many will have retained high resistance to particular forms of damage but should no longer be completely immune.</P> <P> </P> <P>Since your entire argument here was bassed on the part of the patch notes for Live Update 19, maybe you should have actually read the part you are refering too.</P>

[Renaven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote:<BR> Ok, I need to dispell some of the misconceptions about Iceshield here.<BR><BR>It's not our best DPS.  It's not guaranteed to trigger 3 times, but even if it does, that's 3162/21.5 seconds or 147dps if it does.<BR><BR>Make this comparison:<BR><BR>3162 max dmg (w/o crits or debuffs) every 21.5 seconds IF it triggers all three times<BR>-vs-<BR>7232 max dmg (w/o crits or debufs) in 15.5 seconds from casting Ball of Lava twice.<BR><BR><BR>It is not accurate to calculate DPS based on casting time only.  It does no damage when you finish casting.  It only does damage when a mob hits the target.  The only time that works is for super short fights where you only cast any spell once.  And one cast of BoL > 1 cast of Ice Shield (both at Master 1 for these comparisons).<BR><BR>A good tank won't get hit all the time.  Sometimes I cast Iceshield and it wears off without triggering all 3 hits.  As a matter of fact, that isn't uncommon at all.<BR><BR>The aggro nerf is lame.  And they intentionally avoided mentioning it.  The hate NEVER went to the wiz before, but it DOESN'T go to the tank now, that's a nerf.<BR><BR>The damage shouldn't go to the wizard unless they change EVERY damage shield to work that way.  Changing only ours is just smoke and mirrors to try and make wizards feel they're doing more DPS than before.  They aren't.<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by curtlewis on <SPAN class=date_text>06-15-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:48 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not interested too much in arguing about this, however I just wanted to clear up a few things that I feel are warranted from your post:<BR><BR>1. The recast on Iceshield is 16 seconds without any recast reduction AA's or the lower recast pet out -- not sure where you got 21.5 figure from.<BR>2. My Iceshield, in a raiding situation, hits the target for an average of 1400-1600 every hit.  I know you probably simply examined the spell and jotted down those numbers, which is fine I suppose, but I don't feel it's very accurate as it never hits for that low in a raiding situation where debuffs are applied.  Yes, sometimes I've seen it only do maybe 1200, but that's rare as we always keep our mobs fully debuffed.  The average damage I do from Iceshield is 4500 in a raiding situation, if it triggers all 3 times.  It almost always triggers all 3 times, unless we're fighting a slow-hitting mob such as Tarinax, which makes it a situational spell -- but it does trigger all 3 times about 90% of the time.</P> <P>It's not our most efficient form of damage, but it is definitely up there.  The only spells I would probably use over Iceshield is Fusion, Ice Nova, and Ball of Lava on a single-target encounter.  Hopefully I didn't miss any - it's 2am right now and I'm pretty tired.</P>

[Renaven]

<DIV>Iceshield, for me, does around 281 DPS on average per cast.  Ball of Lava does exponentially higher on average, however you also have to factor in DPS decay as it takes 3 seconds to cast BoL, and only 1 for Iceshield.  It gets a little confusing, though, as Iceshield is not instant damage -- it's more or less reactive damage.  I'd go more in detail but it's late, so I'm heading to bed.</DIV>

[PurpleLlama]

<div></div><div></div>Assuming most of the time that the shield will trigger three times for it's duration, and for 4k, a conservative number, considering the one second cast time... It puts it above BOL in any situation I can name. By any metric. I['ve never hit for BOL for 12k, maybe you have. I have not, never seen it, never heard of it. It doesn't matter that it isn't instantaneous and happens over 20 seconds (or almost instantly), in a given period of time, ice shield assuming marginal effectiveness will outperform even BOL since you are limited to casting one spell at a time and therefore your primary limiter is NOT the duration that the spell does damage if that duration is significantly less than that of the encounter, but how much time YOU spend casting it when compared to how much it does regardless of the period. Doing 8k over 3 seconds is more time inefficient than doing 4 over 1, assuming no mana or aggro limitations, and you'd have to do some pretty startling maths to show otherwise. If you assume mana or aggro limitations.... Well, heh.And please, don't tell me that hate is NEVER AN ISSUE (not directed at anyone in particular) if you are only casting fusion and novas (or BOL, assuming a mythical non-once in a blue moon, non-wasted cooldown 12k hit) you are sitting around with a lot of slack time for some strange reason. And considering you pay no penalty in aggro, but rather you and the entire raid previously gained a margin of aggro, it was NEVER a waste and was always effective. If you don't consider aggro an issue at all, whatsoever, in almost all situations... I can only applaud your tanks and wish I had access to the classes and players you do. In reality, I think, aggro is an issue, at the very least on non-trivial mobs, in at least a sizeable minority of situations.Damage shield was ALWAYS worthwhile. Maths is not my strongsuit, but simple operations clearly show that to be the case speaking from a pure DPS perspective, I'd have to be shown and walked through a very thorough explanation of why this isn't the case when the math seems so simple and apparent. The main argument seems emotional "not my damage", and now "yay now my damage" even though objectively, given a limited raid party, your raid party only lost effectiveness.By the way, minus aggro penalties from the spell itself, the new tongue twist will allow you a new aggro margin (or to mitigate spikes somewhat but that's rather a moot point which I will explain if necessary) of +28 DPS for YOU ALONE! A much superior change over at the very least a +100 DPS or hate margin for each and every member of the group or raid in a worst case scenario.<div></div>I find it rather ironic some sing hosannas over this piddling spell while trash talking a once much more solid and effective spell. If iceshield was not worth your time, you'd be a [Removed for Content] to cast the new stifle as an aggro reducer.<p>I'll come to my fundamental points. Ice shield was always very effective, and still is. Previously, we used it as an aggro aid in lieu of the ones that we lacked due to class restrictions. Now, it is effective, but can no longer perform as an aggro suplement which DOES hurt on a new server with severely restricted class composition.</p>If it was not important, why nerf it? If it was important, why indifference? If it was neither of those two, but a useful and stalwart tool that could be used in certain applications, and certainly not comparatively overpowered, why was it nerfed?<p>Message Edited by PurpleLlama on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 AM</span>

[nailhead]

<P><FONT color=#ff3300>Whats more important during a fight is that the group succeeds.  I have no issue with the tank getting more dps because I casted frostshield on him.  In fact I would always cast it as it was a way of decreasing the chances of aggro towards me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>  This change now means that a wiz has more chance of getting aggro as we cant aid the tank getting more now.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Anyway, you should be thinking of the group effectiveness other than just outdoing them in DPS for your ego!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Nato</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Comrades in Arms</FONT></P>

[Asterra]

<blockquote><hr>I'll come to my fundamental points. Ice shield was always very effective, and still is. Previously, we used it as an aggro aid in lieu of the ones that we lacked due to class restrictions. Now, it is effective, but can no longer perform as an aggro suplement which DOES hurt on a new server with severely restricted class composition.If it was not important, why nerf it? If it was important, why indifference? If it was neither of those two, but a useful and stalwart tool that could be used in certain applications, and certainly not comparatively overpowered, why was it nerfed?<hr></blockquote>I'll give you my take.  It has been my experience that as long as the tank is doing his job, it is essentially impossible to steal agro on a single target, even without utilizing any threat-reducing options.  Had Wizards been capable of consistent single-target DPS superiority - which it is tempting to speculate that the devs had originally intended, to judge the absence of agro issues on single targets - this probably would not be the case.  The devs seem to have identified this phenomenon as a problem whose solution needed to be something along the lines of generating more threat for Wizards, without actually giving the class their long-overdue DPS boost.This preliminary nerf was implemented in a surprisingly clever way.  A casual reader might even mistake it for a bonafide upgrade!  It's impossible to avoid a deep feeling of disgust over what can only be interpreted as straight-faced duplicity on the devs' part.

[PurpleLlama]

I'm tempted to respond sarcastically in kind, but if you think this is an upgrade you need to get your head checked. You do not do more damage than you did before in reality. This is an objective fact. The spell's functionality, and a wiz's aggro control, got downgraded, this is an objective fact.If you have two kids, one older, one younger than 6~ (dependant upon rate of mental maturation), and three slices of pizza, and you give one slice to the younger and two to the older, if the younger complains you can simply cut his slice in half and you will appease him. You did not give him more pizza, the amount of pizza that exists and the way it was apportioned was still the same, but due to stages of mental maturation and the way he percieves the world he will now think that he has more pizza than he had. If you were to cut that pizza into 4 pieces, take one quarter of his slice, and give him back 3 1/4 pieces he would percieve that he had more pizza than ever! Wow, it's magic.The above is true, by the way, and parallels this situation beautifully. That was to illustrate a classic example of how perception and reality do not always intersect, and that one is tangible and one is not. Don't read more into that previous paragraph than I intended, as I know it can sound pretty damned patronising.If you weren't being sarcastic my apologies, sometimes hard to tell on the internet and all that!<div></div>

[Radigazt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote:<BR> Ok, I need to dispell some of the misconceptions about Iceshield here.<BR><BR>It's not our best DPS.  It's not guaranteed to trigger 3 times, but even if it does, that's 3162/21.5 seconds or 147dps if it does.<BR><BR>Make this comparison:<BR><BR>3162 max dmg (w/o crits or debuffs) every 21.5 seconds IF it triggers all three times<BR>-vs-<BR>7232 max dmg (w/o crits or debufs) in 15.5 seconds from casting Ball of Lava twice.<BR><BR><BR>It is not accurate to calculate DPS based on casting time only.  It does no damage when you finish casting.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's kinda hard to guage DPS of DOT's or multi-triggers, agreed.  But, IMHO, the DPS of ice shield should be calculated based upon it's casting time for 2 and 3 hits.  In other words, although it's definitely possible to cast ice shield and never have it trigger at all (i.e. u cast it on yourself and ur root never breaks so u never get hit), I'd equate that more like a Fizzle or a Resisted spell, which we don't generally calculate in DPS.  </P> <P>So, it's safe to assume that when calculating DPS we expect ice shield to trigger at least once, so a minimum of 1k damage.  If you're facing a mele target, it's most commonly triggered all 3 times unless the target dies.  So, I think the DPS from ice shield should assume that it triggers all 3 times, and the only time attributed to it should be the casting time.  </P> <P>I'm a big fan of this spell line, and I use it a lot.  Sometimes in PvP I may not cast it all the time because it's a huge beacon pointing at me ... real pvp foes attribute 100% of the hate generated from the sight of ice shield at me.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PurpleLlama wrote:<BR>I'm tempted to respond sarcastically in kind, but if you think this is an upgrade you need to get your head checked. You do not do more damage than you did before in reality. This is an objective fact. The spell's functionality, and a wiz's aggro control, got downgraded, this is an objective fact.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I believe the previous posters point was that ice sheild now calculates the casters int and aa's when triggering ice sheild.</P> <P>Therefore, if you previously had no hate issues (pre lu24) and you continue to not have hate / agro problems post lu24, the spell would appear to that particular wizard as being boosted.</P> <P>I have cast this spell several times pre lu24 on a raid MT who had it proc (even a sk with more int than a guard/zerker/) for less than 800 dmg.</P> <P>Now post lu 24 it will prc on average for 1400 at m1 and crit for up to 2k.</P> <P>I however see this as a nerf to the spell just as you do Mr Lama, and would like the hate generated to continue to be attributed to the person who procs the spell, but still use the casters int/aa's to determine the range when it procs.</P> <P>We know this type of coding is available when you examine most of the fighters avoidence buffs that buff the fighter's stats but give the person the buff is casted on a % chance at avoiding an attack using the casters avoidence.</P> <P>So we know it IS possible to make the spell work like it is now just assign the hate to the person who triggers the proc and I think many wizards would be happy.</P>

[Goreshade]

I don't mean to interrupt your scintillating discussion, since I'm not even a wizard and just dropped in on these boards to look up a spell, but I just had to say something.  I find the concept of a guild that focus purely on parsers (which are mostly irrelevant, imo), and discount all other factors when measuring contribution and competency, well... completely idiotic.I mean, come on... you gotta be kidding. And the "don't want to give appearance of slacking" comment?  Is this game a job now?<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><span></span><span></span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>Good one. Had me going there for a second.<div></div>

[Mareth]

<div><blockquote><hr>Goreshade wrote:I don't mean to interrupt your scintillating discussion, since I'm not even a wizard and just dropped in on these boards to look up a spell, but I just had to say something.  I find the concept of a guild that focus purely on parsers (which are mostly irrelevant, imo), and discount all other factors when measuring contribution and competency, well... completely idiotic.I mean, come on... you gotta be kidding. And the "don't want to give appearance of slacking" comment?  Is this game a job now?<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><span></span><span></span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>Good one. Had me going there for a second.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't see what's weird about one of the tier-1 dps classes in a raiding guild doing everything they can to maximize their damage.It's a different gamestyle than the one I play, but I'd never laugh at them for that, they probably know a hell lot more about my class than I do.</div>

[Renaven]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goreshade wrote:<BR>I don't mean to interrupt your scintillating discussion, since I'm not even a wizard and just dropped in on these boards to look up a spell, but I just had to say something.  I find the concept of a guild that focus purely on parsers (which are mostly irrelevant, imo), and discount all other factors when measuring contribution and competency, well... completely idiotic.<BR><BR>I mean, come on... you gotta be kidding. And the "don't want to give appearance of slacking" comment?  Is this game a job now?<BR><BR><SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><BR>Good one.<BR><BR>Had me going there for a second.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmm, let me be brutally honest with you.  Please excuse any part of this post that may sound cocky, but I'm just going to be blunt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every monster in the game is easy for us minus Chel'Drak and the new Contested ring event in Mystic Lake.  When you've beaten every mob in the game 50+ times, it starts to get boring.  We make the game more enjoyable by competing with one-another to see who can do the most damage, since we have the leniency to do so since we hardly ever wipe to anything.  Now, if we do Chel'Drak or the new ring event in Mystic Lake, we would not be competing to see who could do the most damage.  That would be absolutely [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Those encounters require the use of every raid-wide beneficial spell that you have at your disposal, so neglecting them to do more damage on the parse would be absurd.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this clears things up.</DIV>