Good-bye EQ2

[SaintJere]

I have had a fun time with EQ2, i would never have kept on playing for so long if i hadn't (account age 540days at last count).  However, i have finally reached my breaking point and it is time to move on.  I started with a warlock sooooo long ago when none of our spells (warlock or wizard) worked at all.  i was upset when warlocks turned into aoe machines instead of single target dps but i perservered and decided that with DoF coming out i would try a Wizard.Now though i give up.  there are three reasons and i list them below.A couple weeks ago i applied for membership to a top tier raiding guild and after a couple weeks i was given a no vote.  the reasons given were all very acceptable, and honestly i couldnt really argue with them.  all accept one.  poor raid dps.the regrettable truth is that i did more damage than the other wizard on thier raids consistently, and this would put at the low end of top ten on parses.  all my spells were adept three or master and i was vastly beyond the int cap.  power was not an issue.  but i was always (ALWAYS) being outdamaged by rangers, swashbucklers, berserkers and necromancers.  to be clear i was not simply being slightly beaten by them, i was being BLOWN away by them.  i would consistently parse 500 on single targets, and the ranger would parse over 1k.  the necro would parse a little under 1k.  the berserker would parse about 600.  the swashbuckler would parse about 650.  this is not news to anyone who has played a wizard, we are simply not a good class.  we are tier two dps with no other purpose whatsoever.my other complaint was that their is absolutely no end game content outside of raiding, so if you are not in a raiding guild there is nothing to do.  this is especially frusterating considering how easy raids are, and the dramatic imbalance between raid loot and other loot.  it takes about 15 minutes to kill lockjaw with about 18 people or less.  he will drop items that are far and away MUCH better than anything you can get anywhere else.  the best item you can get from questing with out raids is the ring of fate, and it took me about 10 to 15 hours to get mine, not counting the time spent on all the faction quests.  lockjaws loot is much better than the ring of fate, and it takes about 1.2 man hours to get it. any multi mob raid instance blows this math that much further out of the water, 5 master chests or more in gates, versus the 2 hours it takes about 22 to clear it.  i should never have had to kill the godking to get my staff of anuk.  i did, and i liked the staffs new graphics and the effect was definately a step in the right direction for caster gear.  but that was a long long quest and i was pretty mad when i found out i needed a raid to finish it after all the time i had spent getting to the end.It is ok to have raid gear be very good, even the best in some cases.  but there should always be a way to quest or work in some other way to get gear at least as good.BTW, i was really thrilled that my plat (and i had A LOT) had basicly no value whatsoever.  there was never a wizard master i could use for sale and of course never any gear i could buy. i heard the last time an ice comet master sold on my server it went for over 150 plat.if this game had end game content for the person who likes grouping or soloing i would probably have stayed.  I will say that i loved desert of flames, it was one of the three best MMO expansions ever and my only complaint was i wanted more.btw soe, when i was cancelling my subscription you tried to entice me back by telling me about such items as the prismatic greatsword of the scale or pristine imbued ebon leafblade.  might want to update that part.well thats it.  for all those idiots who read this and want to insult me or flame or whatever, go nuts.  i am posting this more as an aid for soe.  i really like eq2, and until my sub expires i will poke arround with my swashbuckler from time to time.  the swashbuckler is a blast to play and i strongly reccomend the class to all you.misery.<div></div>

[HairyDustBall]

I agree full hardedly with you and I am sorry to see that the problems have made the game unenjoyable for you to play.  I would like to elaborate on a few things that I have seen... A Swashy cannot out DPS by themselves they need others speed buffing them however from parses I have seen I can conistantly out dps swashy's by about 100 dps. Wiht my max being 650 and the swashi being around 500.  But I can see how in a aid or group with certain haste and dps modifiers how it could easily swing the otherway.  But with debuffs I have heard of wizzies doing 8000 with IC so Im not sure how it balances out.  Should we be able to be out DPSed by a teir 2 in certain situations.... (well I think they should be rare)  And we certainly need an up in dps.As for SOEs love of 5% of the population (the raiders), has made me consider closing my acount a few times.  I hear risk/vs reward but I don't know why there is only risk when 24 people are involved?  Cant there be 1 group mobs that provide the same risk to a group as a raid mob does to a raid?  Also I would like it if I saw a char with a cool item I can say 1 day I might be able to get that.  But as it is I see someone with the cool item and say I can't ever get that.... Why becuase I dont have the time to be in an uber raiding guild.  Not that they want wizards anyway.Well anyway wanted to send you some support before the flamers came on.    

[StoneySilen]

<div></div>I agree with most of what you said.  I still enjoy my wizard in groups.  Solo I won't play him.  I started a new necro for soloing.  Soon as I get my Necro up to his mid 50's I will probably hang up my wizard hat unless something is radically changed with them.

[javieto]

<div></div><div></div><p>I've never been owned by none but rangers/assassins or necros/conjurors , and only rangers can blown me with all mobs...</p><p>8000 IC? Of course.</p><p>Ice Comet (Master I) 7k-8k is the "normal" (that [Removed for Content] random thing can make you land a 4k IC ¬¬), BOI (Master II) 3.2k, Paralyze (Adept III) 2.2k (not sure), Cremate (Master I) 600 per tick, Surging Tempest (Master I) 1.2k per tick.</p><p>All this is normal in raid without all the debuffs because ive never been in a raid with defiler, swash, dirge, brigand and all that debuffers :smileysad:</p><p>Message Edited by javieto on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:58 AM</span></p>

[Dejah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>javieto wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I've never been owned by none but rangers/assassins or necros/conjurors , and only rangers can blown me with all mobs...</p><p>8000 IC? Of course.</p><p>Ice Comet (Master I) 7k-8k is the "normal" (that [Removed for Content] random thing can make you land a 4k IC ¬¬), BOI (Master II) 3.2k, Paralyze (Adept III) 2.2k (not sure), Cremate (Master I) 600 per tick, Surging Tempest (Master I) 1.2k per tick.</p><p>All this is normal in raid without all the debuffs because ive never been in a raid with defiler, swash, dirge, brigand and all that debuffers :smileysad:</p><p>Message Edited by javieto on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Flat out lies.  Ice Comet (Master 1) does a max of 5986 dmg with capped INT.  The highest I've seen it hit for was around 8900, but it doesn't happen often and the only time it did we had two brigands in the raid.  It's impossible to get the damage you claim without debuffs.

[Lord_Torona]

<div></div><div></div>Ok thats sad to hear, are wizards really that crap, i've been playing mine, admittedly i am only lvl 14 now, but i really enjoy the character, but if it is going to stop me joining a guild or others from wanting to group with me, i'm going to cut my loses now and start up my neck character again, or perhaps just go for a pure hands on character.<p>Message Edited by Lord_Toronaga on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:06 PM</span></p>

[Silentsta]

<div></div>Sorry to disagree but no, wizards are not crap. Im in a high end raiding guild and I make every raid.  On raids Im up there with every class, rangers 1st, me switching out second with warlock/necro/conj depending on the mob.  Does this bother me? No. As long as the mob drops dead and I helped, Im happy.  Dont get hung on not having the biggest number on parse programs.  Most are still flawed and never show all our damage. For example Frost Shield.  Slap it on the MT, procs 3 times for 800ish, gives the damage to the tank on parse programs but thats a good thing, because it helps them keep aggro.  Thats 2400 damage we do through someone else with a fast recast timer.    As for soloing, not sure what people are doing wrong but I soloed descent before the combat revamp and after, even better.  Yes hitting 50 does help a lot with IC but you can solo below 50.  Surgeing Tempest after 50 completely rocks and I can solo caster mobs with ease.  Step back and look at other approaches to soloing if you are haveing issues.  Make sure your roots are upgraded, the better they are, the harder it is to brake early.  Do I think our class is perfect, no.  Dont think any class is but hey, Im having fun and thats what Im paying for. 

[Lord_Torona]

<div></div><p>silent i wasn't saying wizards are crap, i was <em><u>asking</u></em> is they are?</p><p>Can you tell me at what lvl i get a group root?</p>

[tentim]

<div>I have to say I can see why you are leaving. I am seeing exactly the same problem in raids as you are. Long cast times, few ice spells vs fire and, most of all, resists on our spells giving them low damage = we are well down the dps ladder. I am seeing wizards being consistantly beaten on raids by Illusionists, Rangers, Necros, Conjurors etc. It's a real pity.</div><div> </div><div>I think a lot of the problem lies with the fact that we do so well solo. It is obviously beyond their ability to find a way of increasing our raid damage without making us better solo, so they just cap our damage based on solo output.</div><div> </div><div>Unfortunately this is currently totally ignored by them, and devs do not read in the wizrd forum and have never posted in it (I don't think they have a high level wizard in top Dev team - they favour tanks, as it was in EQ1).</div><div> </div><div>Personally I am praying for deliverance in Vangaurd, but I've been that dissapointed in new releases for so long now in the MMOG world that I am trying not to get too hopeful. I love playing them though, and for now there isn't anything out there that I would jump for.</div><div> </div><div>Good luck finding a new game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lord_Toronaga wrote:<div></div><p>silent i wasn't saying wizards are crap, i was <em><u>asking</u></em> is they are?</p><p>Can you tell me at what lvl i get a group root?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Well you can pretend, and if parsers don't really matter then ya we aren't that bad.</p><p>If you raid with someone who parses then yeah you begin to feel that you could easily be replaced by a summoner who provides way more utility than you and way more DPS while not giving the raid as much problems with aggro.</p>

[javieto]

<span></span><hr width="100%" size="2">Flat out lies.  Ice Comet (Master 1) does a max of 5986 dmg with capped INT.  The highest I've seen it hit for was around 8900, but it doesn't happen often and the only time it did we had two brigands in the raid.  It's impossible to get the damage you claim without debuffs.<hr width="100%" size="2">Did i say im doing that damage without debuff? No i didn't . I said im doing it without FULL debuff. But i use to have all the debuffers but dirges, and sometimes defilers.I don't care about if you trust me or not, im just saying what im doing every day im raiding =), and i don't care neither if the most you've seen is around 8900, i've never seen that much but my raid IC average is about 7.5 <span>:smileywink:</span>If you don't mind, don't call lier someone who you don't know. And read again, almost all spells are Masters.<div></div>

[tentim]

<div></div><div>Interesting then that we've never heard of you and you're a newbie with four posts.</div><div> </div><div>I have gotten 9k with adept 3 IC with a brigand debuffing, but that is NOT on a raid mob. Best I have had on a raid mob is 7k. Most of the time, however, IC bounces completely 60% of the time, hits for crap damage 20%, and hits for ok damage 20%. Consider the cast time of our nukes this means my DPS falls through the floor. Oh, and other spells are bouncing too. Most of mine are AD3 with 1 master, and I'm maxied on INT.</div><div> </div><div>In any case, I've gone through the stage of readng everyone elses parses, hoping they aren't true, then doing my own at raids. It all concurrs, the evidence is clear: we are really bad DPS on raids. Add to that the utility they took away with the combat update some patches back and I really don't know whay anyone would choose us for a raid unless they just need the numbers made up. Luckily I have a good guild who like me and I get to come along.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by tentimes on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:18 PM</span></p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>javieto wrote:<span></span><hr size="2" width="100%">Flat out lies.  Ice Comet (Master 1) does a max of 5986 dmg with capped INT.  The highest I've seen it hit for was around 8900, but it doesn't happen often and the only time it did we had two brigands in the raid.  It's impossible to get the damage you claim without debuffs.<hr size="2" width="100%">Did i say im doing that damage without debuff? No i didn't . I said im doing it without FULL debuff. But i use to have all the debuffers but dirges, and sometimes defilers.I don't care about if you trust me or not, im just saying what im doing every day im raiding =), and i don't care neither if the most you've seen is around 8900, i've never seen that much but my raid IC average is about 7.5 <span>:smileywink:</span>If you don't mind, don't call lier someone who you don't know. And read again, almost all spells are Masters.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I think you have a language barrier, (no seriously I do)</p><p>to us (most people) they see a statement like (i did xx dmg without debuff) and we see that you did xx damage with "no" debuffs on the mob.</p><p>It appears to me that you seem to mean (i did xx dmg without debuff) as I did xx damage but did not have the maximum number of debuffs available in game on the mob, however I still had several debuffs on the mob that allowed me to do xx dmg. </p><p>It eludes to your point that you can do even more dmg with more debuffs that were not available to you when you got those figures.</p><p>Take a deep relaxing breath, and try to word out your posts on the forums a little better and you wont have so many issues with people taking it negativly</p>

[javieto]

<div></div><div></div>   Well, prolly it was my fault. Im not a native english speaker. Illusive has the point, im doing that damage with debuffs, but not all the debuffs, so im sure the spells could hit a bit higher.<span></span>without all the debuffs <-- I thought this was going to be understood as there weren't all the possible debuffs, but there were some.BTW Yes, im a newbie , with a 501 days age account, what's the point with that? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by javieto on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:38 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by javieto on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:43 PM</span></p>

[Silentsta]

<div></div><div>You guys are missing my point completely.  The programs that generate the numbers for fights do not show all the damage that we as wizards do due to the makeup of one on our best spells.  Lets say during one raid fight, you cast frost shield 10 times.  Lets say out of 30 chances to proc, 20 of them land.   20 X 800 = 16,000 damage we do, but is given to the tank.  Not to mention our flametounge line that can squeeze out even more.  As for aggro on raids, I dont seem to have that issue.  FS on the MT and deaggro spell at the right times and you can control aggro.  Now if the MT does die, Im usually the second or third to die and thats what I strive for.  That means Im doing enough damage to [Removed for Content] that mob off, but not to much to pull aggro.  I in no way have anything against people who parse or the program.  We parse our raids to keep an eye on the slackers :smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div>

[tentim]

<div></div><p>I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but the damage parsers can tell where the frost shield dmg came from. They parse back to the last casting of it and attribute damage to that person. Try getting a friend and casting it on him with a single mob. They also pickup pet damage, so forge of ro is in there too.</p><p> </p>

[Silentsta]

<div></div>Yes our program picks up and lists the pets in their own catagory but sorry, FS is damage shield, which on most programs is given to the person it is on.  Please send me a message with a link to the program you are using that gives the damage to the wizard.  Thanks

[Poochymama]

<div></div>Aye, flamtounge and Frost Shield show up as my dmg on the parser I use.

[Dejah]

<div></div><p>Sorry javieto, I could have been a little more kind in my posts and asked for you to clarify yourself.  It just seemed like you were a troll of another class trying to make wizards seem more powerful than they are in reality.</p><p>As far as parsers that attribute Frostshield damage to wizards, could someone supply the name?  I stopped using Combat Stats a while back, and recently started using Advanced Combat Tracker to parse encounters at the end of the night, and neither of them ever attributed Frostshield of Blazing Granduer to a wizard.  I wonder how a parser would know whose Frostshield is doing the damage in the case of multiple wizards casting it on the MT?  Using the last wizard to cast could end up attributing 6 proc's to one wizard.  And what if there are two wizards in the same raid, how would the parser know who to attribute flametongues to?  Not to mention that flametongue can come from our self buff Inferno Surge and from our melee buff Blazing Granduer, a parser would have to do SWAG to be able to attribute the damage to anyone other than the person that directly inflicted it.</p>

[The Ban]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote:<div></div><p>Sorry javieto, I could have been a little more kind in my posts and asked for you to clarify yourself.  It just seemed like you were a troll of another class trying to make wizards seem more powerful than they are in reality.</p><p>As far as parsers that attribute Frostshield damage to wizards, could someone supply the name?  I stopped using Combat Stats a while back, and recently started using Advanced Combat Tracker to parse encounters at the end of the night, and neither of them ever attributed Frostshield of Blazing Granduer to a wizard.  I wonder how a parser would know whose Frostshield is doing the damage in the case of multiple wizards casting it on the MT?  Using the last wizard to cast could end up attributing 6 proc's to one wizard.  And what if there are two wizards in the same raid, how would the parser know who to attribute flametongues to?  Not to mention that flametongue can come from our self buff Inferno Surge and from our melee buff Blazing Granduer, a parser would have to do SWAG to be able to attribute the damage to anyone other than the person that directly inflicted it.</p><hr></blockquote>It doesn't really matter anyway as combined they only add 80-100 DPS. That still leaves us 500-700 DPS shy of the predators.

[Dejah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>The Banff wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote:<div></div><p>Sorry javieto, I could have been a little more kind in my posts and asked for you to clarify yourself.  It just seemed like you were a troll of another class trying to make wizards seem more powerful than they are in reality.</p><p>As far as parsers that attribute Frostshield damage to wizards, could someone supply the name?  I stopped using Combat Stats a while back, and recently started using Advanced Combat Tracker to parse encounters at the end of the night, and neither of them ever attributed Frostshield of Blazing Granduer to a wizard.  I wonder how a parser would know whose Frostshield is doing the damage in the case of multiple wizards casting it on the MT?  Using the last wizard to cast could end up attributing 6 proc's to one wizard.  And what if there are two wizards in the same raid, how would the parser know who to attribute flametongues to?  Not to mention that flametongue can come from our self buff Inferno Surge and from our melee buff Blazing Granduer, a parser would have to do SWAG to be able to attribute the damage to anyone other than the person that directly inflicted it.</p><hr></blockquote>It doesn't really matter anyway as combined they only add 80-100 DPS. That still leaves us 500-700 DPS shy of the predators.<hr></blockquote><p>I think you may be underestimating the damage those two buffs can add. </p><p>Blazing Granduer when cast on a melee fighter or pet has a 25% chance to proc a dot that lasts for 3 seconds and does 42-51 damage every second.  That dot will pretty much always be on the mob, so you're going to add 45 dps to that person, that number could be higher or lower depending on how much heat has been debuffed on the mob and how much the target needs to joust.  You can cast this on up to 3 people/pets in your group.</p><p>Frostshield is also great DPS, one of of best actually.  It takes you 1.5 seconds to cast it on the MT (1 second cast time, 0.5 second recovery). Master I Frostshield, if it proc's once, its better DPS than Master 1 Sunstrike, and Adept 3 Cremate.  If it proc's twice, then it is better DPS than Master 2 Ball of Incineration, Master 1 Incapacitate, Master 1 Fiery Convulsions, and is almost as good as Master 1 Ice Comet.  If it proc's three times, then it is better DPS than all single target spells except Surging Tempest (and perhaps protoflame, I don't have any reliable numbers to work with on protoflame).</p><p>DehahClub Fu</p>

[Amphibia]

<div></div><div></div><p>I agree with most of what was said by the OP. I'm not planning to quit though, as I still enjoy the game. I just hope SOE will do something to balance this, because it is really silly how we're completely blown away (as you put it) by rangers, assasins, necromancers and conjurors. Perhaps espesially rangers. We were supposed to be tier1 dps, weren't we? Right now we are miles away from that - which in turn makes us less wanted in groups and raids.</p><p>Message Edited by Zeamyr on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:42 PM</span></p>

[Zabumt]

<div>Also we have a group str and int buff.  Does the extra damage from that buff get added into parses?  Of course not.</div><div> </div>

[WallyTred]

<div></div><p>Don't panic, guys. We are still uber class! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We are universal class.</p><p>Parsers lie. They don't calculate DPS, which our Frostshield gives for tank and DPS of Protoflame. And it's rather good DPS, trust me.</p><p>We have many advantages of another classes. We can mezz mobs like enchanters, we can root, we can buff, we can convert our health into other's power. We have evac and inviz.</p><p>We are not depend of our armor like other classes. We have good range for fight, so we can avoid mob's AOE. We have Ice Comet finally! Even quality of our spells not critical. Cause they all have wide range of damage.</p><p>Only one thing bad - we are loosers in PVP, but it comes from classes disbalance.</p>

[xsvhrs]

<span><blockquote><hr>Silentstalk wrote:<div></div><div>You guys are missing my point completely.  The programs that generate the numbers for fights do not show all the damage that we as wizards do due to the makeup of one on our best spells.  Lets say during one raid fight, you cast frost shield 10 times.  Lets say out of 30 chances to proc, 20 of them land.   20 X 800 = 16,000 damage we do, but is given to the tank.</div><hr></blockquote>Don't mean to sidtrack this thread, but these numbers look off to me. Frostshield has a 10% chance to proc for around 350 ish damage for a short duration. So if you cast it 10 times, and say the tank gets attacked 30 times, then Frostshield would only proc like 3 times right? For about an extra 1000 or so.Where are you getting the 16,000 from?</span><div></div>

[WallyTred]

<div></div><div>Frostshield cast proc EACH time, tank STRIKE mob. Every tank's strike FS gives additional damage to mob during a duration of spell. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by WallyTred on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:16 AM</span></p>

[xsvhrs]

<span><blockquote><hr>WallyTred wrote:<div></div><div>Frostshield cast proc EACH time, tank STRIKE mob. Every tank's strike FS gives additional damage to mob during a duration of spell. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Ah, I see. But if I remember correctly, isn't it a very short duration? Like 10 seconds or so? How may times can a tank strike the mob in 10 seconds? 5 or so? 10?So, if you cast it 10 times, and the tank strikes the mob 10 times each cast, for 100 chances to proc, and it only procs 10% of the time, that's still only about 10procs.10 procs x 350ish damage is still only 3500.What am I missing?</span><div></div>

[Godelure]

Description of FS, taken from eq2.ogaming.com/db :Places an icy barrier surrounding target ally. Whenever that ally is struck by an enemy in combat, that enemy receives instant cold damage.Damage listing from this thread:http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=1886050 - Frostshield Damage shield dealing ice damage.A1: 478-584A3: 558-681M1: 637-779So if the tank GETS hit, the FS will trigger and do xxx damage to the mob. Don't worry about the 10 sec timer, every decent (raid)mob will slap your tank more than 3 times in 10 seconds. Not to speak of multi mob encounters ...Oh and I'm a Pally and I LOVE my Wizzy giving me FS for the nice aggro boost.

[StoneySilen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Silentstalk wrote:<div></div> As for soloing, not sure what people are doing wrong but I soloed descent before the combat revamp and after, even better. <hr></blockquote><p>Are you talking about Soloing Pre-LU13 and After LU13?  Because the complaints about soloing is after LU19 with all mobs have tons of stuns and stifles to interrupt us AND roots breaking like crazy.</p><p>I am 57 and have ALL adept 3 spells.  I can root a group of 3, 2 of 3 will stick, 1 will resist.  The restister will run up and stun me before I can root him with my single because their stuns have a HUGE distance they can hit with them.  He will start beating on me.  I finally take him down, the other 2 have since broken, they chain stun me.  I am dead.</p><p>I suggest you take a whole night and solo for a few hours on groups of mobs since it sounds like to me you haven't done it in awhile.  Then come back and let us know what you think of the new soloing ability.</p>

[xsvhrs]

<hr size="2" width="100%">I am 57 and have ALL adept 3 spells.  I can root a group of 3, 2 of 3 will stick, 1 will resist.  The restister will run up and stun me before I can root him with my single because their stuns have a HUGE distance they can hit with them.  He will start beating on me.  I finally take him down, the other 2 have since broken, they chain stun me.  I am dead.<p>I suggest you take a whole night and solo for a few hours on groups of mobs since it sounds like to me you haven't done it in awhile.  Then come back and let us know what you think of the new soloing ability.</p><hr size="2" width="100%">No problems soloing here. Grouped heroics up to even con are doable. Single named heroics up to even con are also doable, as long as they are not casters.<p></p><div></div>

[xsvhrs]

<hr size="2" width="100%">So if the tank GETS hit, the FS will trigger and do xxx damage to the mob. Don't worry about the 10 sec timer, every decent (raid)mob will slap your tank more than 3 times in 10 seconds. Not to speak of multi mob encounters ...<hr size="2" width="100%">That's what I thought.But I still don't understand where all the DSP is coming from. if you cast FS 10 times in an encounter, and the tank gets hit 20 times each time, that's 200 chances to proc, resulting in about 20 procs. 20 procs times about 500 damage is 10k damage.What else am I missing?<div></div>

[Cecil_Stri]

<div>Wizards don't suck... We can get fairly good dps.. but these classes do more.. a good conj necro or predator is amazing dps wise.</div><div> </div><div>Really what do we have to show for our lack of dps... evac?  I love how everyone throws this around.. well you guys have evac!... wow great.. so does every scout... wardens.. and shadow knights.</div><div> </div><div>I was doin some number crunches.. basicly what i think happened is in the beta of the combat changes they changed our damage to have a huge variable worth of damage... No other class does this and our power consumption and cast time wasn't changed.  Well after compareing numbers with conj.. conj nukes are actuallly better when it comes to dps and mana per damage ratio. (by a large margin)  Sure i know everyone sees the flashy big numbers and goes ewwww aahhhhh but problem is... we also can hit for low amounts as well... (lower then conjs max hit)</div><div> </div><div>Basicly i think mana needs to be dropped a tiny bit for our nukes.... casting time lowered by maybe 20% across the board or min damage increased slightly</div>

[FordPrefect]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">So if the tank GETS hit, the FS will trigger and do xxx damage to the mob. Don't worry about the 10 sec timer, every decent (raid)mob will slap your tank more than 3 times in 10 seconds. Not to speak of multi mob encounters ...<hr size="2" width="100%">That's what I thought.But I still don't understand where all the DSP is coming from. if you cast FS 10 times in an encounter, and the tank gets hit 20 times each time, that's 200 chances to proc, resulting in about 20 procs. 20 procs times about 500 damage is 10k damage.What else am I missing?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Frostshield doesn't proc, it gives instant cold damage EVERY time the target is hit, up to 3 times per cast. So, if you cast it 10 times, it's reasonable to assume that out of the 30 possible times it can fire, it will fire 20 times (meaning that the tank will get hit 20 times or 2x per FS cast). Each of those hits = damage from FS (20 x 800 per hit (pretty reasonable average with M1) = 16K damage.</p><p> </p>

[Silentsta]

<div></div>StoneySilence I solo all through the day up until raids are called.  I solo for quests, writs, and just plain fun to see if I can take an encounter.  Ive soloed pre LU1 all the way  after LU 19 and can assure you  that my wizard solo's just fine.  My roots stick most of the time, my forge of Ro holds aggro just fine on groups of mobs,  Do I die at times, of course, but Ive killed a lot more then Ive been killed.   Wizard is a good solo class IMO, but hey, its just my opinion.  

[xsvhrs]

<hr size="2" width="100%">Each of those hits = damage from FS (20 x 800 per hit (pretty reasonable average with M1) = 16K damage.<hr size="2" width="100%">Ah, ok, so this spell has changed from being a 10% to proc, to being instant cold damage every time the tank is hit. And you're using a M1.  They still have it showing a 10% chance to proc at ogaming.Ok, now I see where the DPS is coming from, although I haven't seen a M1 for this spell anywhere in drops or on broker. I guess a more realistic expectation of this spell with an Adept 1 or Adept III would be from 1200-1800 damge per cast, which makes it very efficient, but not in the top 4 or 5 spells for most damage (per cast).Even still, sounds like a good enough spell to start adding to my rotation, especially in raids.<div></div>

[StoneySilen]

<div></div>Don't forget Frostshield can be resisted by the mob.  I have seen this happen alot.

[BoolaYa]

<div>To return to the point(s) that started this thread before it became another discussion of our DPS in raids:</div><ol><li>Much of the endgame content, and rewards, is designed for raiders</li><li>Wizards do not excel at DPS in raids, which makes playing them in the endgame less fun and less attractive to groups</li><li>Because of 1 and 2, this person is choosing to leave a great game after playing for a while</li></ol><p>The issue in #1 is, I believe, the most important:  the reward that is dropped should be commensurate with the skill required to get it.  So, a drop off a group-only mob that requires significant coordination between players in that group, and which is NO TRADE, should be equally as valuable in stats as that dropped off a raid mob that requires a comparable amount of skill.  Adding players to the mix does not require more skill necessarily, it requires more players and to some degree more coordination.  It does not require more risk, and in many cases does not require more time.  I think more NO TRADE items from group-only mobs at the end of long, difficult quests would benefit the game, at all the levels of advancement.</p><p> </p>

[Zmobie]

Re: drops of Frostshield.<i>"Ok, now I see where the DPS is coming from, although I haven't seen a M1 for this spell anywhere in drops or on broker."</i>Mine dropped from the Cenobite in CT.--Tusk

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote>We need to stop all this discussion about FS and FT and get back to the subject of this post. If you have a parser that adds FS and FT to the other person then simply add about 100 DPS to your current DPS. That still doesn't come close to closing the 600-800 DPS lead the predators have over us.</blockquote>

[xsvhrs]

Rangers just got hella-nerfed on test.<span class="headline">Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006<i> 2/14/2005 8:15 pm</i></span>*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack. <div></div>

[FordPrefect]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>BoolaYale wrote:</p><div>... Adding players to the mix does not require more skill necessarily, it requires more players <strong>and to some degree more coordination</strong>.  It does not require <strong>more risk</strong>, and in many cases does not require more time. </div><hr></blockquote>I highlighted the parts above that I question. 1) How exactly does any encounter in the game pose ANY risk, given that the penalty for death has all but been eliminated. 2) Please explain ... the difference between 6 and 24 players seems to me to account for a great deal more coordination.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:Rangers just got hella-nerfed on test.<span class="headline">Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006<i> 2/14/2005 8:15 pm</i></span>*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack. <div></div><hr></blockquote><p>ah man thats very [Removed for Content].  I also have an assasin and this change affects me too.</p><p>I've been saying for some time our spell procs should have gone off on dot ticks to make it a little bit more fair, like our fire proc line proccing off dot ticks of firey convultions, for, cremate...ect. </p><p>It seems soe is trying to nerf scouts down, when we all pretty much feel they are where they should be and we need to go up.</p>

[Silentsta]

<div></div><p>"suppose I should clarify my blunt statement a bit more. Rangers are currently in their own tier of damage versus single targets in group combat. Indeed, they are supposed to be in the top tier of damage along with the likes of Wizards, Warlocks, and Assassins, but as it stands now, they outshine each of those classes by too wide a margin. That is being corrected."</p><p> </p><p>Guess you can come back to EQ2 now.</p>

[FLLonewu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:Rangers just got hella-nerfed on test.<span class="headline">Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006<i> 2/14/2005 8:15 pm</i></span>*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Wow I bet the scouts are screaming bloody murder.  The huge imbalance in DPS that has been the topic of so much discussion I believe is in the proc rate that the melee classes get.  My parses of raids show rogues and predetors getting roughly 1/3 of thier damage from poisons and poison procs.  Cut this in half or even 1/3 and thier DPS starts to come inline with ours.  Instead of these work around fixes, they just need to fix the proc formula so that its correctly calculated (I've read several posts about this problem)

[Daxtyr_AnnonTuri]

yep i am a ranger .. i give ... no i mean it i give ... you can have it i will never [Removed for Content] about anything again ever as long as before i go ...... they hit the Wizzies with the nerf bat also ... if ranger is T1 dps at 500-600 dps MAX then by all that is holy/ unholy i think ALL classes at lvl 70 need to have a damage CAP at 600 dpsALL skills / spells should shut off and grey out untill the next session for dps is couculated.maybe that will make the wizzie community [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. life will suck when Everyone is playin the only class left in eq2 ....the enchanter .... cause they blow .. but no one expects them to do anything anyways.-Dax

[Daxtyr_AnnonTuri]

<span><blockquote><hr>Silentstalk wrote:<div></div><p>"suppose I should clarify my blunt statement a bit more.<font color="#ff0000"> Rangers are currently in their own tier of damage versus single targets in group combat.</font> Indeed, they are supposed to be in the top tier of damage along with the likes of Wizards, Warlocks, and Assassins, but as it stands now, they outshine each of those classes by too wide a margin. That is being corrected."</p><p> </p><p>Guess you can come back to EQ2 now.</p><hr></blockquote></span>true we are single target dps masters .... i think we should have a 7k AoE arrow storm to unlimited Mobs within 60 feet.maybe that would shut up the wizzies-Dax

[chorpie]

<div>little bit of pent up aggression there, buddy... were you not hugged as a child?  or are you still a child?  its possible..</div>

[Silentsta]

<div></div><div></div>Daxtyr please dont come to wizard forums and cry.  Ive never said anything about ranger dps.  That statement in my post above this one was right from a dev's post.  Go back to the ranger forums.<p>Message Edited by Silentstalk on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:32 PM</span></p>

[UnderToad]

I cant believe there are wizs here who don't use forstshield on raids  :  /     Commiserations to the nerfed scouts & tank dps peeps about the newest round of nerfs.<div></div>

[SaintJere]

i thought i would look back, and i was amazed that there were so many replies to this thread.  thanks.i went to play WoW, and i have to say that it is the best MMO ever made.  eq2 was about an 8/10, WoW is about a 14/10.  i will not go to far in explaining all this, and i wont trash eq2.  i have had fun playing eq2, no denying it.i looked at the patch updates for LU20 and noticed that rangers mostly but melee in general is getting a rebalance (not a big one mind you) concerning the procs.  while this is certainly necessary, it is also insanely long overdue.  and it does nothing to address the issues of summoner dps vs wizard.  for that matter, even post lu20 rangers will still out damage us, just by not as much. well thats it, good-bye and gl.jeremy<div></div>

[Bruti]

Just wait until you have a level 60 in a week or 2 on WoW and the game will be a -14 out of 10 rating. From someone who played WoW for a year and just came back to EQ2, you are going to run into the exact same problems there that you did on EQ2. At level 60, certain classes aren't needed, other classes do way too much DPS, and Raid equipment is far better than anything you could ever get in a quest.Seriously, read the general WoW forums you will see 100 posts just like yours.Both games are very fun until you reach the level cap, and then unless you like to spend all night in ventrillo or teamspeak with 39 people you dont know killing <raid boss 57> you will not have fun.<div></div>

[Trollb]

<div>so, a "too cool for you" crowd guild wouldnt let you in, no surprise there. It happens in all games, usually over gear not just class.</div><div> </div><div>I expect in the months ahead wizard will be given a better reputation. The fact is that in game, they have a fine reputation for dps, and when people ask for dps they basically pick whoever is available, and higher level (appropriate to that group).</div><div> </div><div>I say shrug it off and find better people to hang out with.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Salmand]

<span><blockquote><hr>javieto wrote:<span></span><hr width="100%" size="2">Flat out lies.  Ice Comet (Master 1) does a max of 5986 dmg with capped INT.  The highest I've seen it hit for was around 8900, but it doesn't happen often and the only time it did we had two brigands in the raid.  It's impossible to get the damage you claim without debuffs.<hr width="100%" size="2">Did i say im doing that damage without debuff? No i didn't . I said im doing it without FULL debuff. But i use to have all the debuffers but dirges, and sometimes defilers.I don't care about if you trust me or not, im just saying what im doing every day im raiding =), and i don't care neither if the most you've seen is around 8900, i've never seen that much but my raid IC average is about 7.5 <span>:smileywink:</span>If you don't mind, don't call lier someone who you don't know. And read again, almost all spells are Masters.<div></div><hr></blockquote>ok I AM calling you a liar. i am in a raiding guild, and i KNOW that without FULL DEBUFF you cant break that damage. i KNOW you dont have well over the INT cap (breaking over 500 int now) and i KNOW as well as everyone else in a raid that MOST of the DoF mobs (except LT raid) have resistance to fire and ice. FULLY debuffed, i break just over 8500 with IC adept 3.</span><div></div>

[Aeroslin]

To the OP - sorry your thread got hijackedI'm not far off from the cancel button myself.  Right now I'm having fun BUT I agree, the lack of solo-endgame content is really kind of sad.  Being of an analytical mind, however, I cannot see a way around raiding in the game to get the best items.  One of the more recent changes that SOE made that I think helps the solo/3 person teams is the increase in the drop of legendary and fabled equipment from named mobs and encounters.  I think that is about the best bone we're going to get tossed from SOE in that regard.  I really miss the vastness that EQ1 offered.  It made exploration fun.  EQ2 has about a week worth of exploration fun, after that the excitement is gone.<div></div>

[EvilMissKitty]

<div></div>This is exactly why, I retired my wizard (sniff) and turned her into a crafter.Look, my wizard is ONLY in the upper 20s but I already encounter problems with her before i decided to retire her.I ask to join a group, they ask what is your class? I say wizard, they say argghh you don't do enough dps, sorry but we are goign to take the necro/conjurer and/or ranger/assassin, sorry.  This happened 5 times within 2 weeks.  Sometimes, the groups would take me in becuase I tell them I have all legendary/fabled gear, and all master or adept 3 and/or pity.Then, to add insult to mypoor wizard, one of my alt healers (also all master/adept IIIs) at the same level had a higher magical hit than my wizard!! I mean this could of just been a freaky incident, because I know generally that class (name unmentioned to avoid any nerfbat) does not do that kind of damage. As such, for the foregoing reasons as well as the reasons already discussed by the original post, I have retired my wizard until we get our rightful place as one of the best single target (non melee) dps class.   Seriously, let's see Wizs don't have a tank pet, basically run around naked in cloth armor, and what do we get in return,  at best medium dps, etc..*rant off*<div></div>

[Aeroslin]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>EvilMissKitty wrote:<div></div>This is exactly why, I retired my wizard (sniff) and turned her into a crafter.Look, my wizard is ONLY in the upper 20s but I already encounter problems with her before i decided to retire her.I ask to join a group, they ask what is your class? I say wizard, they say argghh you don't do enough dps, sorry but we are goign to take the necro/conjurer and/or ranger/assassin, sorry.  This happened 5 times within 2 weeks.  Sometimes, the groups would take me in becuase I tell them I have all legendary/fabled gear, and all master or adept 3 and/or pity.Then, to add insult to mypoor wizard, one of my alt healers (also all master/adept IIIs) at the same level had a higher magical hit than my wizard!! I mean this could of just been a freaky incident, because I know generally that class (name unmentioned to avoid any nerfbat) does not do that kind of damage. As such, for the foregoing reasons as well as the reasons already discussed by the original post, I have retired my wizard until we get our rightful place as one of the best single target (non melee) dps class.   Seriously, let's see Wizs don't have a tank pet, basically run around naked in cloth armor, and what do we get in return,  at best medium dps, etc..*rant off*<div></div><hr></blockquote>Ugh, I'm glad my wizard is 60 now because I don't have as much trouble with DPS as I did in the 20's.  Since the inclusion of the Master2 upgrades at each x4th level that should help your DPS in a huge way.  For the first time ever, one of my nukes hit for over 7000 points of damage.  This was during a raid fight with plenty of debuffs on the mob but it shows that when you have the INT and debuffs going, Wizard is the top for doing damage.  Alone, the wizard can't debuff enough, it takes a team effort to get that kind of power.  The people that dis you because you're low dps, they're not the players you want with you because they dont know YOUR class.  Pity them for making the wrong choice.</span></div>