Wizzie is an inferior DPS class SOE, we are losing our role to other classes in groups and raids.

[ngap]

Well in the past week my guild has recruited anotehr conj and another ranger. I am the only wizzie and it looks like it's going to stay that way. We are just an inferior DPS class: in raids I am 8/10 times out DPS'd by our conjurers with full DPS burn on all Adept 3 and Master 1 spells, im talking bawls to the walls DPS no holding back.Oh, don't forget the whole time on raids I am constantly mana cannibalizing. Betweend gruelingly long cast times I rabidly click on manastone/Vital Flow (Adept 3) keeping my health almost always below full due to excessive mana cannibalizing.Meanwhile conjurers do 1.5 to 2x my DPS with no mana cost for their pet, nor no cost to resummon pet. Between the varing damage types between conj/necro, why even have a sorceror mage?Rangers are the BEST DPS in game, period. Our top ranger easily parsing 1,600 dps on single target and 2,500+ on larger encounters. He routinely does 2x to 3x the dps I do, and power is never an issue for him.Now our guild has two conjurers, one necro and three rangers. I don't really see where a Wizzy likes myself fits into the picture any more since im just so freaking inferior its sickening.As mentioned I have all adept 3's and 10 masters in use; not to mention fully fabled and 3 legendary pieces. I would consider myself a high end wizzy and I just don't see the point in playing the wizard class as it exists right now. I hope the new AA's help us out a lot because we need it./defeatist post end<p>Message Edited by ngaplz on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:57 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by ngaplz on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:58 PM</span></p>

[n0kn0k]

<div></div>We've been parsing alot lately. I can't fully aggree with you on the AE damage though.Maybe it's just the difference in playstyles, but our Conjurer is by far the best AE dps at 3500--7500 dps.They are followed by Necro's and Wizards. Warlocks can get high also, but sadly they die then.Some problems with aggro there.I would rather make it.Single: Necro, Ranger,  Wizard, Conjurer.AE: Conjurer, Necro, Wizard, Warlock.As i said it might be the difference in players in my guild. But this would be the situation for my guild.And we're pretty much all mastered up already.I can't say that i'm happy with it, since i've gotta push everything i got to end up there.<div></div>

[Eiji]

Hahaha, good grief. This is the same exact topic of whining that went on in EQ1 for, what, I think we are up to 6 years on that game.Are you going to whine for 6 years? They were never brought in balance (wizards) with melees. You know why? Weapon delays kept getting lower, dmg kept getting higher and procs and proc enhancers (more procs per min/more dmg per proc) kept going in.In the end, the mudflation of crazy items in the high end beat spells.Tack that on to the int to dmg to int cap ratio sclaing with levels and that adds another problem.Add that to the fact that there will be items that proc and increase stats (IE Prismatics from eq1) and int and str increases dmg (in the form of raw physical and procs/poisons) there will be no way for wizards to out dps let's say, any scout (cept bards), bezerkers, and monks 2 years from now.It has never been fixed. It is an inherant flaw in all long term RPG/Character customization scenarios.It even exists in D&D and that game is older than most of you (it's older than me that's for sure)It still ain't fixed there.

[ngap]

Our newest recruited conjuror does pretty sick AOE dps, matching or just falling short of our top ranger, but nothing in the neighborhood of what you are mentioning. I have  only seen warlocks go that high personally on AOE encounters.<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>n0kn0k wrote:<div></div>We've been parsing alot lately. I can't fully aggree with you on the AE damage though.Maybe it's just the difference in playstyles, but our Conjurer is by far the best AE dps at 3500--7500 dps.They are followed by Necro's and Wizards. Warlocks can get high also, but sadly they die then.Some problems with aggro there.I would rather make it.Single: Necro, Ranger,  Wizard, Conjurer.AE: Conjurer, Necro, Wizard, Warlock.As i said it might be the difference in players in my guild. But this would be the situation for my guild.And we're pretty much all mastered up already.I can't say that i'm happy with it, since i've gotta push everything i got to end up there.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Wow your wizard was out dpsing the warlock on aoe?  was the warlock holding back too much to avoid agro?

[n0kn0k]

Yeh holding back alot i guess. There seems to be a few bugs with their aggro. Or lack of a proper deaggro spell.I don't know the exact case tbh, but they still die alot, even with low dps ;pAlso i've never seen our ranger get 1200 dps on singles like the topicstarter suggests, more like 700 or so.Necro's are 8/10 times on top on raidmobs, that's a given for sure here. Definately top3 dps in any case.As a wizard i'm pretty much ok now though with the new de-aggro spell. At the start of DoF it was a bit messy without <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[ngap]

<div></div><div></div>I'm not happy with our deaggro spell. The 2 second cast sucks. Makes it more or less useless in an emergency situation, and just plain annoying to maintain otherwise  since it's another spell cast timer to have to burn off. I spend less time doing damage in fights and more times watching the cast meter fill up or getting the "Target not alive" message.The ranger im talking about is pretty freaking uber. Geared to proc with many, many master 1's.<div></div><p>Message Edited by ngaplz on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:01 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by ngaplz on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:02 PM</span></p>

[m]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eiji wrote:Hahaha, good grief. This is the same exact topic of whining that went on in EQ1 for, what, I think we are up to 6 years on that game.Are you going to whine for 6 years? They were never brought in balance (wizards) with melees. You know why? Weapon delays kept getting lower, dmg kept getting higher and procs and proc enhancers (more procs per min/more dmg per proc) kept going in.In the end, the mudflation of crazy items in the high end beat spells.Tack that on to the int to dmg to int cap ratio sclaing with levels and that adds another problem.Add that to the fact that there will be items that proc and increase stats (IE Prismatics from eq1) and int and str increases dmg (in the form of raw physical and procs/poisons) there will be no way for wizards to out dps let's say, any scout (cept bards), bezerkers, and monks 2 years from now.It has never been fixed. It is an inherant flaw in all long term RPG/Character customization scenarios.It even exists in D&D and that game is older than most of you (it's older than me that's for sure)It still ain't fixed there.<hr></blockquote>Yes there is already some serious thread about the fact we have a big lack of something. Personally i would prefer better buffs/spells group. But no feedback from the devs. So /mequitthegame if there is no change News before Kos</span><div></div>

[your savior]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>n0kn0k wrote:<div></div>Single: Necro, Ranger,  Wizard, Conjurer.AE: Conjurer, Necro, Wizard, Warlock.<hr></blockquote>I don't group with parsers that often but was in a group with a ranger who was doing almost 2x the DPS I was. End parse of one fight wasranger: 11kwizard: 6khighest hit: ice comet 3kI don't have the best spells; but they are good enough to hold my own.  IC should/could have hit for another 2k of damage so really I think of it as 8k vs. 11k.  The ranger told me he "hated" wizards ice comet after that... he was ignored soon after.As for the quoted part above... sorry, this is something that I don't believe you can justify.  Basicly for balance in combat it's all about offensive vs. defensive abilities.  Wizards and Warlocks have the least defense.  Necromancers, Conjurors and Rangers have pets and armor.  With a tank pet and a dps pet you have flexibility; you shouldn't gain the highest DPS.  Wizard really should be the single DPS king with Warlock the AoE king.  Conjurors and Necros fall out of the running because their focus isn't entirelly DPS with a tank pet.  Rangers have far higher defense than any mage, so them having abilities like track, invis and evac with higher DPS and defense is pretty much unbalanced.Agree; don't.  It's just my opinion.  I rip yellow ^^^heroics to shreads; I'm above the lvl 60 int cap and don't even need to use manastone when doing it.  The resists on orange mobs is the only thing that stops me from trying harder.  This is why I don't complain; wizards are awesome in their own way.  If you wanted the DPS crown back you would have to nerf that soloing ability; it's too good.</span></div>

[ApOkalyp]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>This is my first MMORPG mind you I've played EQ2 since about December 2004, and I chose Wizard due to the fact that I thought they were supposed to the be the best single target DPS'er in the game besides Assasin, I guess I was wrong.... anyways, I parse my raids ALOT (being in the top raiding guild on our server) and go over them after raids, and compare them to previous raids to see what improvements can be made, etc.That being said, Im finding that our Ice spell line is in dire need of a revamp, no matter what anyone says, there is not enough fast casting/higher damage spells to fill the void after Ice Comet is casted.  A comparison between my spells show:<u>ICE:</u>Arctic Icicles Master 1Ice Comet Master 1Ice Flame Adept 3 (hits 1/2 @ fire res mob)Icy Wind Master 1 --> mob AoE<u>FIRE:</u>Inferno Surge Adept3Sunstrike Master 1Ball of Incineration Master 1Incapacitate Adept 3Cremate Master 1Ice Flame Adept 3(hits 1/2 @ cold res mob)Fiery Inferno Master 1Forge of Ro Adept3Protoflame Adept3Fiery Convulsions Adept3<u>MAGIC:</u>Surging Tempest Adept3Shocking Flash Adept 3-->Mob AoeJust looking at what res. would screw the Wizard class based on my spells above is simple enough, our fire line is heavy, our class needs to be renamed to something fire oriented lol.  Its bad enough losing positions on parse charts to hardcore Warlock's on a single target mob NOT resistant to us (with me going full out forge of ro, protoflame, debuffed with Arctic Icicles and t6 hex int doll blah blah)...., (based on our guilds raid parse charts) the Wizard class does decent dps amongst the top 5, but not enough to be considered a true hardcore DPS factor, our melee buff(s) and our "filler dps" seems to be the only really needed asset to our class.  In my opinion that is.Based on the sorcerer class, what ever happend to wizards being able to comfortably lead single target dps? Warlocks for the win.Edit: Our mana consumption also...... is soo [Removed for Content] horrible lol it makes me laugh, im still kicking myself for not listening to my buddy back in January of last year when he told me to make Warlock over Wiz.<div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by ApOkalyps3 on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:59 PM</span></p>

[Cowtothes]

<div></div><div>Well, we do alot of raid parsing and found that although I am always in the top 5 dps, the conjurer dps is outrageous. It doesnt matter if its ae or single target mobs, conjurer dps is just scary.</div><div> </div><div>Wizards, warlocks, rangers, assasins are usually around the same, ranging from 550 - 1200 dps, but the conjurer is more like 2k - 3500 dps. Nobody can seem to touch it lol. The only way I can outdps our conjurer is when he either goes afk or dies.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[n0kn0k]

<span>I don't group with parsers that often but was in a group with a ranger who was doing almost 2x the DPS I was. End parse of one fight wasranger: 11kwizard: 6khighest hit: ice comet 3kWe're talking about raiding m8 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Those mobs have a totally different hp, resists, and you have other/more debuffs.But i agree with you that conjurers and necro's have their pets and should be a bit under tier 1 dps.</span><div></div>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>n0kn0k wrote:<span>We're talking about raiding m8 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Those mobs have a totally different hp, resists, and you have other/more debuffs.But i agree with you that conjurers and necro's have their pets and should be a bit under tier 1 dps.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Not true Rangers have more debuffs than wizards.

[n0kn0k]

I was referring to more debuffs during raids. Brigand ones etc. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />During groupplay those situations vary alot, depending on the setup.During raids, most if not all debuff classes are present.  <div></div>

[Impiouseq2]

<div></div><p>"Hahaha, good grief. This is the same exact topic of whining that went on in EQ1 for, what, I think we are up to 6 years on that game.Are you going to whine for 6 years? They were never brought in balance (wizards) with melees. You know why? Weapon delays kept getting lower, dmg kept getting higher and procs and proc enhancers (more procs per min/more dmg per proc) kept going in.In the end, the mudflation of crazy items in the high end beat spells.Tack that on to the int to dmg to int cap ratio sclaing with levels and that adds another problem."</p><p> </p><p>This pretty much sums up how EQ2 will work for a long time to come.  It took them 4 or 5 years to realize in EQ1 that this was happening and to start implementing equipment for casters to upgrade thier DPS.  I had thought they would have learned from thier mistakes, and with the weapon dps system in EQ2 it looked like they had, however the damage from the actual arts is still way off compared to spell damage from wizards(and other casters).  After LU13 I assumed they really would have restored balance, after all that was the point of it correct?  Guess that didn't happen, monks and berserkers, which are a fighter subclass, routinely outdps cloth casters still.</p><p>As for starting yet another thread, asking for attention from the devs, all I can say is good luck.  The wiz community has been pleading for help for a long time, and I have yet to see a single dev even acknowledge our plight.  Actually I take that back, one dev posted that they were putting the "intelligence scaling damage thing" on the back burner because it was not important.  So there yah go.  I, on the otherhand, have decided not to relive through my EQ1 experience all over again and said my fairwells to my guild and cancelled my account.</p>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>n0kn0k wrote:I was referring to more debuffs during raids. Brigand ones etc. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />During groupplay those situations vary alot, depending on the setup.During raids, most if not all debuff classes are present.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Huh? Even in Raids Rangers get much better debuffs.

[n0kn0k]

Hardly possible since most debuffs are already at the cap at most raidmobs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Scotti]

<div>Wizards can now wear chain armor, use bows, and unfortunatley dont use spells anymore- Just ranged attacks that do insane amounts of proc'd damage.......yeah, who would've thunk it.</div><div> </div><div>Wizards need some digital love.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Albrig]

<div></div>There is something VERY VERY wrong with the Mage class - I couldn't get to Wizard because it is such an awful difference, a truly awful experience.The bit of wrong I am talking about it how s-l-o-w the wizard is. Compared to my Ranger, it's like night and day.The first thing I noticed immediately is casting times - the Mage is diabolical. Absolutely awfully slow. With my Ranger, I am water. With my Mage, my hands are like ice - the graphical spell effects are not very good and that lightning effect really ANNOYS.The second thing I noticed is that using HO is like waiting for cement to turn into a 50 storey building. It's absolutely bloody awful to use HOs with Mages - don't believe me? All Mage players please play with a Scout; the HOs just seem to OPEN UP in to anything you like - it ALWAYS WORKS, and it HAPPENS. The Mage... it just DOES NOT HAPPEN. Sometimes, there is no second icon flashing??? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is up with that?Here's my take on imbalance with EQ2.SoE makes one class or another, or more, rubbish to play because of changes. Players try out the class that's untouched by SoE's shaft-stick.That's the imbalance I am talking about and you're going to get it when Rangers outnumber just about EVERY SINGLE LASS in the entire EQ2 network.p.s. DON'T NERF RANGERSp.s. Mages should LOOK LIKE THEY JUST NERFED RANGERS<div></div>

[illum]

<div><p>how odd...I parse from time to time and my dps is about equal to rangers overall...sometimes one ranger does more, sometimes i'll do more.  when the people who are being "outdone", are you using all the spells in your arsonal, or are you using a select few.  if you REALLY think about it, there's all the buffs you cast on others that you DONT get credit for...I've noticed if I take away some of those buffs from a ranger, my dps is usually a little higher...and if you've been reading the other boards, the rangers ARE being MAJORLY nerfed...pat yourself on the back because you no longer have any competition, i feel it's unfortunate, i've always enjoyed matching myself up against other rangers and putting them in their place.</p><p>so to sum up, quit complaining, the wizard DOES awesome dps unless the player is a total tool (yes, even against rangers), and is always welcome in a group, unless said wizard is known to be a total tool...not much help SOE can do if you are a tool :smileyvery-happy:</p></div>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Albright wrote:<div></div>There is something VERY VERY wrong with the Mage class - I couldn't get to Wizard because it is such an awful difference, a truly awful experience.The bit of wrong I am talking about it how s-l-o-w the wizard is. Compared to my Ranger, it's like night and day.<font color="#ff9900">The first thing I noticed immediately is casting times - the Mage is diabolical. Absolutely awfully slow. With my Ranger, I am water. With my Mage, my hands are like ice - the graphical spell effects are not very good and that lightning effect really ANNOYS.</font><font color="#66ccff">The second thing I noticed is that using HO is like waiting for cement to turn into a 50 storey building. It's absolutely bloody awful to use HOs with Mages - don't believe me? All Mage players please play with a Scout; the HOs just seem to OPEN UP in to anything you like - it ALWAYS WORKS, and it HAPPENS. The Mage... it just DOES NOT HAPPEN. Sometimes, there is no second icon flashing??? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is up with that?</font>Here's my take on imbalance with EQ2.SoE makes one class or another, or more, rubbish to play because of changes. Players try out the class that's untouched by SoE's shaft-stick.That's the imbalance I am talking about and you're going to get it when Rangers outnumber just about EVERY SINGLE LASS in the entire EQ2 network.p.s. DON'T NERF RANGERSp.s. Mages should LOOK LIKE THEY JUST NERFED RANGERS<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Your reasonings dont make any sense at all.  You're making a complaint about the MAGE/SORCEROR class when the Wizard subclass is something that you've never played.</p><p>Explain to me what you mean in the section highlighted in orange above.  If you're compairing a Scout CA with a Mage Spell, then yes there is a huge difference.  CAs are almost instantaneous cast.  That is apparent in Scouts and Fighters alike, and is nothing new.  Generally, Mage subclasses have long cast timers on all of their spells, and this is one reason I can see where we lag behind a bit in damage.  2 seconds to cue up Concussive, then 4 seconds to cue of Ice Comet is an eternity.</p><p>I have no idea where you were going with this statement: "<font color="#ff9900">With my Ranger, I am water. With my Mage, my hands are like ice.</font><font color="#ffffff">"</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">And the section highlighted in blue... no clue there either.  HOs are random events triggered from an HO starter spell.  All classes get the SAME starter function which initiates a different random portion of the HO wheel.  The only plus that a Scout gets is the ability to "flip" the HO wheel to hopefully get the desired end result that they are looking for.... if this is even what you're talking about, because I have no clue.  And really... if you've even bothered to examine your spells or USE them for any good length of time, you'd know which spell triggers which HO icon type.  If you're not getting a spell icon flash, go and learn your spells.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">I would suggest you go back and play the Wizard class, because I dont think you've even done so.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">And to the original post:</font></p><blockquote><hr>ngaplz wrote:Well in the past week my guild has recruited anotehr conj and another ranger. I am the only wizzie and it looks like it's going to stay that way. We are just an inferior DPS class: in raids I am 8/10 times out DPS'd by our conjurers with full DPS burn on all Adept 3 and Master 1 spells, im talking bawls to the walls DPS no holding back.Oh, don't forget the whole time on raids I am constantly mana cannibalizing. Betweend gruelingly long cast times I rabidly click on manastone/Vital Flow (Adept 3) keeping my health almost always below full due to excessive mana cannibalizing.Meanwhile conjurers do 1.5 to 2x my DPS with no mana cost for their pet, nor no cost to resummon pet. Between the varing damage types between conj/necro, why even have a sorceror mage?Rangers are the BEST DPS in game, period. Our top ranger easily parsing 1,600 dps on single target and 2,500+ on larger encounters. He routinely does 2x to 3x the dps I do, and power is never an issue for him.Now our guild has two conjurers, one necro and three rangers. I don't really see where a Wizzy likes myself fits into the picture any more since im just so freaking inferior its sickening.As mentioned I have all adept 3's and 10 masters in use; not to mention fully fabled and 3 legendary pieces. I would consider myself a high end wizzy and I just don't see the point in playing the wizard class as it exists right now. I hope the new AA's help us out a lot because we need it./defeatist post end<hr></blockquote><p>I'm sorry you are the only Wizard in your guild... that's really too bad, because it seems you're not being appreciated for what you can actually do for your raid group. </p><p>I am 1 of 4 Wizards in my guild.  I am given a spot on every raid we plan and undertake, and that is raiding 7 days a week on all T6 zones.  I'm not invited to raids just for my damage.  I'm invited for my Fire/Ice/INT/WIS buffs.  I'm invited for my Fire proc, for my spot mezzing (yes... it IS used), for my 7.5k nukes, and for various other reasons that i'm not going to get into.</p><p>DPS is not the only thing that is required in grouping and raiding, and that is a big misunderstanding in alot of people's minds.  I would LOVE to be able to parse 3000 DPS, but as it is, I can already steal aggro off of our MT if I chain nuke too hard in the wrong situations.</p><p>If you're having power issues, there are options that I could suggest.  Upgrade your 3 power conversion spells to Adept III/Master I, get your Manastone, get your Overflowing Vessel of Fy'Run.  Between those 5 items, my Staff of Second Life, Golden Efreeti Boots, Keeper's Robe of Quiescence, and Amulet of the Swords of Ro, i'm pretty well taken care of.  Even now, I'm working to upgrade my gear, and am only beginning to break into my Wizard's top potential.</p><p>To the contrary point of view... I agree that we could use a damage increase.  Shortened cast times and shortened recast times would be a good start on my end.  I'd also like to have an aggro reducer that you can punch more times than just once every 15 minutes for a very minimal hate reduction ammount.</p>

[n0kn0k]

I'm sorry you are the only Wizard in your guild... that's really too bad, because it seems you're not being appreciated for what you can actually do for your raid group. <p>I am 1 of 4 Wizards in my guild.  I am given a spot on every raid we plan and undertake, and that is raiding 7 days a week on all T6 zones.  I'm not invited to raids just for my damage.  I'm invited for my Fire/Ice/INT/WIS buffs.  I'm invited for my Fire proc, for my spot mezzing (yes... it IS used), for my 7.5k nukes, and for various other reasons that i'm not going to get into.</p><p>DPS is not the only thing that is required in grouping and raiding, and that is a big misunderstanding in alot of people's minds.  I would LOVE to be able to parse 3000 DPS, but as it is, I can already steal aggro off of our MT if I chain nuke too hard in the wrong situations.</p><p>If you're having power issues, there are options that I could suggest.  Upgrade your 3 power conversion spells to Adept III/Master I, get your Manastone, get your Overflowing Vessel of Fy'Run.  Between those 5 items, my Staff of Second Life, Golden Efreeti Boots, Keeper's Robe of Quiescence, and Amulet of the Swords of Ro, i'm pretty well taken care of.  Even now, I'm working to upgrade my gear, and am only beginning to break into my Wizard's top potential.</p><p>To the contrary point of view... I agree that we could use a damage increase.  Shortened cast times and shortened recast times would be a good start on my end.  I'd also like to have an aggro reducer that you can punch more times than just once every 15 minutes for a very minimal hate reduction ammount.</p>I think you mean Fire/Ice/INT and STR <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not WIS. Fire and Ice resists atm we're not needed for that. A dirge/troub does that just as well with a potion.People rather add a Conjurer for Mitigation and other stuff in the MT group. Int and STR? The ones that need it have it maxed out already for a long time.It true that we can overaggro, but tbh nowadays any dps class can do that. Pre-DoF that was another story.Power issues? I'm at max regen and still running out of power fast. And i'm using power regen potions, Manastone, the completed Vessel and all power spells.Also got various power regen items. And all spells ad3/M1/M2. That's our main issue on raid mobs tbh. The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] power usage, and as you say the cast timers. 4 sec to cast a 3 sec AE spell, it's just silly. Conjurers have a nice 2 sec cast 1 sec AE spell and other things :< Icecomet casttime is also silly. I don't see the harm in lowering it to 2. The recast time stays the same anyway.<div></div>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>n0kn0k wrote:I think you mean Fire/Ice/INT and STR <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not WIS. Fire and Ice resists atm we're not needed for that. A dirge/troub does that just as well with a potion.People rather add a Conjurer for Mitigation and other stuff in the MT group. Int and STR? The ones that need it have it maxed out already for a long time.It true that we can overaggro, but tbh nowadays any dps class can do that. Pre-DoF that was another story.Power issues? I'm at max regen and still running out of power fast. And i'm using power regen potions, Manastone, the completed Vessel and all power spells.Also got various power regen items. And all spells ad3/M1/M2. That's our main issue on raid mobs tbh. The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] power usage, and as you say the cast timers. 4 sec to cast a 3 sec AE spell, it's just silly. Conjurers have a nice 2 sec cast 1 sec AE spell and other things :< Icecomet casttime is also silly. I don't see the harm in lowering it to 2. The recast time stays the same anyway.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>Ah my bad.  Meant to type STR.</div><div> </div><div>I'm still not following all the issues though.  My only problems nowadays is casting times.   I can understand that you run out of power fast, and that is due to the high cast cost per spell (which is utterly, rediculously high), but i'm saying that I really dont have much trouble getting that power back.  I have the Overflowing (completed) Vessel of Fy'Run, a manastone, 3 power restoration spells (two of which are at Master I), 4 item related power regens, and carry along regen potions, Shard of Essence, and Bleeding Heart.  I go out of power, but regaining it is not that big an issue for me.</div><div> </div><div>I'd like to see at least 1 full second bumped off of all of our spellcasts, and have our casting costs re-evaluated.  As I said, I can burn through my power faster than most anyone in the raids I attend.</div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<div>Ah my bad.  Meant to type STR.</div><div> </div><div>I'm still not following all the issues though.  My only problems nowadays is casting times.   I can understand that you run out of power fast, and that is due to the high cast cost per spell (which is utterly, rediculously high), but i'm saying that I really dont have much trouble getting that power back.  I have the Overflowing (completed) Vessel of Fy'Run, a manastone, 3 power restoration spells (two of which are at Master I), 4 item related power regens, and carry along regen potions, Shard of Essence, and Bleeding Heart.  I go out of power, but regaining it is not that big an issue for me.</div><div> </div><div>I'd like to see at least 1 full second bumped off of all of our spellcasts, and have our casting costs re-evaluated.  As I said, I can burn through my power faster than most anyone in the raids I attend.</div><hr></blockquote><p>I think looking into our power usage is a big undertaking.  I dont think they can just make a change across the board like 20% reduction without understanding what that change would do.</p><p>I suggest they up our mana conversion spells. and change the harvest line.</p><p>increase our canni by 100%  for about 450 power at adp3 and 480 at m1 for about 400 hp.</p><p>Change harvest line and remove the stun component.  making it a power regen over time spell that is self only. </p><p>These two changes would be huge.  I think it would bring us in line with other classes in terms of power consumption, and wont eat up our valuable damage dealing casting.</p>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:I think looking into our power usage is a big undertaking.  I dont think they can just make a change across the board like 20% reduction without understanding what that change would do.<p>I suggest they up our mana conversion spells. and change the harvest line.</p><p>increase our canni by 100%  for about 450 power at adp3 and 480 at m1 for about 400 hp.</p><p>Change harvest line and remove the stun component.  making it a power regen over time spell that is self only. </p><p>These two changes would be huge.  I think it would bring us in line with other classes in terms of power consumption, and wont eat up our valuable damage dealing casting.</p><hr></blockquote>Mmm... yeah.  I actually like that better.  I know that just looking at my Overflowing Vessel of Fy'Run, and seeing the 600+ power conversion, I get very jealous for my own conversion spells.

[n0kn0k]

Hehe i'd wish they would make the Vessel usable without beeing equipped :p Kinda like manastone.It's annoying now.<div></div>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>n0kn0k wrote:Hardly possible since most debuffs are already at the cap at most raidmobs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>Same exact thing apply's to wizards as well.

[n0kn0k]

I think you should back up a few posts and reread them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As i said group setups aren't the best way to check dps, since the setups vary so much.There could be 2 debuffers that benefit the Ranger, and none besides the wizard himself.That doesn't happen in raids. There u usually have all debuffers present.  <div></div>

[Admh]

<div></div><p>nah its k.. Rangers die without a troub to mitigate their aggro...</p><p>I'm tossing 8k Ice comets, 5k Ball of Incinerations, 4k Paralyze, 2k Sunstrikes and up to 1.6k Surges when a brigand calls out dispatch and I still don't get aggro when a raid mob is at 90%hp. When this happens I'm usually 2nd or 3rd on the list with a conjurer/necromancer being #1.</p><p>Wizards can live without Troub to mitigate their aggro or a paladin to cast amends on them a ranger can't.</p>

[notyou]

<div></div><div>Nerfing: Coming soon to a ranger near you.</div>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote>Admhel wrote:<div></div><p>nah its k.. Rangers die without a troub to mitigate their aggro...</p><p>I'm tossing 8k Ice comets, 5k Ball of Incinerations, 4k Paralyze, 2k Sunstrikes and up to 1.6k Surges when a brigand calls out dispatch and I still don't get aggro when a raid mob is at 90%hp. When this happens I'm usually 2nd or 3rd on the list with a conjurer/necromancer being #1.</p><p>Wizards can live without Troub to mitigate their aggro or a paladin to cast amends on them a ranger can't.</p><hr></blockquote>Usually when i chaincast nukes i get aggro, while the summoners in the raid can easily do a lot more without being swept aside by angry epics. Even when using concussion as much as possible.</span><div></div>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>notyou wrote:<div></div><div>Nerfing: Coming soon to a ranger near you.</div><hr></blockquote>The dps of summoners annoys me a lot more, they are supposed to be a tier lower than us. I think rangers are the only class thats doing it's intended T1 damage.</span><div></div>

[notyou]

<div>Honestly, I'm just afraid our becoming top class DPS will come at the expense of our soloing ability.</div><div> </div><div>That is something I really don't want, I love being able to take out heroic mobs. I don't solo for experience, but being able to do a lot of heroic quests solo that others have problems with is always a bonus.</div>

[Cowtothes]

<div></div><p>Nah, I wouldnt worry about soloing too much. It won't be hard as long as we have big nukes despite our effort to screw it up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>I will say it is easy to get agro at the beginning of a raid for me. Once agro is established, it is near impossible for me to get agro especially w/ a troub or pally in the group. I usually cast a concussion at 90% before unloading the IC even with a decrease agro buff. If I'm lucky, the mob will be alive for another IC ! But yea, conjurers and necros seem to be Gods of dps at the moment. Then it is a toss up between wizards, rangers, and assasins, depending on the mob resists. Warlocks have the edge on group mobs.</p><p> </p><p>Lerxt</p>

[Straylig]

<div></div><p>We're great in exp groups, and we're also great in situational roles when raiding.</p><p>There's a ton of poison/disease resist mobs, and I've seen many different melee resists, too...</p><p>I agree that we aren't Tier1 DPS like they've promised, but we aren't broken to the point of being useless.  We -do- need an increase in DPS.</p>

[Lyasa]

<div></div><p>there are some melee resistant mobs, but key to that is if one mob is resistant to piercing i can swap in a slasher and be dealing damage again. and have not come across any mob that is resistand to slashing/piercing at the same time. (but have seen pierce/crush resistant, though it escapes me as to what it was at the moment)</p><p>it would be nice if every simple nuke spell came in an ice/fire (for wiz) or poison/disease (for warlock) form, linked on the same cast timer (like ball of fire and ball of ice are both gained at 23) but specialty spells (see ice comet/devastation) would still be only available in 1 damage type.</p><p>and i'd be for a reduction in cast times and power consumption, possibly an efficency bump in conversion spells too. but hope is that as levels progress the conversion spells get more and more efficient.</p>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>notyou wrote:<div>Honestly, I'm just afraid our becoming top class DPS will come at the expense of our soloing ability.</div><div> </div><div>That is something I really don't want, I love being able to take out heroic mobs. I don't solo for experience, but being able to do a lot of heroic quests solo that others have problems with is always a bonus.</div><hr></blockquote>I don't see why. The classes that outdamage us now can solo the same mobs as we can, some can even do it better. There are a lot of classes that can solo heroics better than wizards.</span><div></div>

[Sevm]

<div></div><div>Thought I would add my 2 cents from a complete Raid-Zone Parse recently.</div><div> </div><div><div>I am only listing the top 10 as they are the only ones doing serious DPS.  This is a fairly typical parse.  The <strong>constants</strong> are the rangers, assassin and <strong>necromancer</strong> at top.  Also, this is post LU19 btw for all those who thought rangers damage would be downsized due to changes in weapon procs.  And of course, everyone is fabled/all masters and know they are being parsed.</div><div> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffff66">Ranger | 802 DPSRanger | 719Brigand| 534Assassin| 478Necromancer | 468Berzerker| 441Wizard | 430Warlock | 405Wizard | 272Berzerker | 270</font></strong></div><div><strong><font color="#ffff66"></font></strong> </div><div>Anyways, just posted this in the Warlocks forums.  I enjoy my class but it gimped as hell  and cant DUEL for [Removed for Content].  Anyways, I am working on my ranger alt.  Its a fun class to play and I cannot imagine how a raiding guild would choose a mage/sorcerer type over a ranger/assassin/brigand/necro/conjuror.</div><div><strong><font color="#ffff66"></font></strong> </div></div><p>Message Edited by Sevman on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:58 AM</span></p>

[Cyri]

<div>In my opinion SOE completely screwed the Wizard class in EQ2 and it does not fulfill it's brief of being the top DPS tier along with Warlocks.</div><div> </div><div>I have played a Wizard through the Betas, had a high end character in EQ1 and  have posted a number of times on this issue. What I have discovered is that SOE developers seem to have a real problem responding to Wizard issues and as a result the class has become weak in several areas the worst being Raid damage where my high end Wiz with Master spells was pathetic in comparison with lower tier DPS characters.</div><div> </div><div>I have given SOE time to fix the problem and still they plod on ineffectual as ever.</div><div> </div><div>This is the 2nd time I have had a high end character made unenjoyable by SOE's poor development (the first being a high end Pally in EQ1) and it will be the last time I grace SOE with my custom, both accounts have been cancelled.</div><div> </div><div>Good Luck All and may your characters receive better treatment!</div><div> </div><div>Cyrium</div><div>Wizard</div><div>Runnyeye</div><div>Paladin of Karana</div><div>Venril Sathir</div>

[zeff]

<div></div><p>yes it's so sad. iv been playing a wizz from opening day.</p><p>i have been always been hopeing some day it would of been fixed.</p><p>as a Dps top gun it's not. im hitting for top's 5270 and my int is 437.</p><p>i am being out Dps in my raid's by other class's. i raid 4 to 6 hours a day</p><p>now im thinking they will never fix the class. i may pull it from the raids and put in my warden .</p><p>o I will play the wizz up to 70 but if not fixed I will moveing on.</p><p>neff  60 wizz  crushbone.</p><p> </p>

[matinisback]

<div></div><div>Wizzy's suck warlocks are better  j/k :smileyvery-happy: but rangers are alot better then wizzy's</div>

[Ratril]

<div>From what I can tell there seems to be 2 problems with wizards. </div><div> </div><div>1.)  When in groups normal monsters die to fast for me to get a spell off on the monster.  Casting times are way to long.  They need to be shortened.  I hate going through fights where I contribute nothing.  That really ticks me off.  Adjust the recast time to account for the shortened casting times. </div><div> </div><div>2.)  The primary damage issue's that wizards have is suffered across both EQ and EQII.  The problem is with the auto attack that the burst damage melee have.  Melee in addition to thier massive damage attacks which rivals that of the wizard also have an auto attack.  This means they are always dishing out damage in addition to their bust damage.  Wizards as it stands right now don't have this.  The burst spells seem to be in check with each other (between the wizard classes and the melee classes).  But the auto attack throws things out of wack.  The solution seems fairly easy.  Give Wizards an auto attack, maybe wands that hurl fire and ice at the target (this also helps with issue 1).  Let it be affected by the proc buffs.  Give the auto attack weapons the same DPS as the melee weapons.  As with the melee weapons it should not cost power to use, and should be constant just like melee weapons.  Probelm fixed.  Adjusting spell damange will fix the short term but as better and better equipment gets introduced the spell damage will be thrown out of wack again.  This prevents that. </div><div> </div><div>What do you all think?</div>

[BlueS]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ratril wrote:<div>From what I can tell there seems to be 2 problems with wizards. </div><div> </div><div>1.)  When in groups normal monsters die to fast for me to get a spell off on the monster.  Casting times are way to long.  They need to be shortened.  I hate going through fights where I contribute nothing.  That really ticks me off.  Adjust the recast time to account for the shortened casting times. </div><div> </div><div>2.)  The primary damage issue's that wizards have is suffered across both EQ and EQII.  The problem is with the auto attack that the burst damage melee have.  Melee in addition to thier massive damage attacks which rivals that of the wizard also have an auto attack.  This means they are always dishing out damage in addition to their bust damage.  Wizards as it stands right now don't have this.  The burst spells seem to be in check with each other (between the wizard classes and the melee classes).  But the auto attack throws things out of wack.  The solution seems fairly easy.  Give Wizards an auto attack, maybe wands that hurl fire and ice at the target (this also helps with issue 1).  Let it be affected by the proc buffs.  Give the auto attack weapons the same DPS as the melee weapons.  As with the melee weapons it should not cost power to use, and should be constant just like melee weapons.  Probelm fixed.  Adjusting spell damange will fix the short term but as better and better equipment gets introduced the spell damage will be thrown out of wack again.  This prevents that. </div><div> </div><div>What do you all think?</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah I've heard these ideas before. I think the real fix is recast timers and casting times. Giving us any ranged weapon to use with an auto attack would help too of course... In D&D casters are proficient in crossbows, and I've been playing D&D forever so I tend to think of wizards as being the guys carrying big sticks and crossbows.There is however a problem with having an auto-attack style spell as you list out though. One of the reasons melee classes beat us so well in DPS is because there are some very nice buffs to piercing, crushing, slashing, melee, etc that other members of your group give you. If we have an auto-attack that is not piercing or slashing or crushing then we don't make use of those buffs, and those buffs account for a LOT of the DPS other classes do. Also, if a mob is immune or highly resistant to heat or cold, then having an auto-attack that does that will make us worthless as our main spells and our auto-attack would be worthless. If we are to have an auto-attack, it must be a ranged attack that does either crushing, slashing, or piercing, and in all ways act like it's a regular weapon. Crossbows, slings, bows, thrown rocks, it doesn't really matter.But I don't think this is the sort of fix we are looking for, we don't want to be a D&D clone, that's what DDO is for. We instead need a way to speed up our casting. Items that do this would be great. It would appear that some of the new AA's will speed up casting, perhaps we can get items that do this also.</span></div>

[n0kn0k]

I would really love to know where that parse was :pAnd seeing the differences between your 2 wizards and 2 zerkers,i'd say it's time for a slacking evaluation for 2 of them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I can't imagine any common raid instance where a wizard would do only 272 dps.Unless you're talking about PoS or something.<div></div>

[Kamuj]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Straylight wrote:<div></div><p>We're great in exp groups, and we're also great in situational roles when raiding.</p><p>There's a ton of poison/disease resist mobs, and I've seen many different melee resists, too...</p><p>I agree that we aren't Tier1 DPS like they've promised, but we aren't broken to the point of being useless.  We -do- need an increase in DPS.</p><hr></blockquote><p>LOL, now he gets it. /sigh</p><p>People have been correctly pointing this out since Beta.</p><p> </p>

[Cowtothes]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Ratril wrote:<div>From what I can tell there seems to be 2 problems with wizards. </div><div> </div><div>1.)  When in groups normal monsters die to fast for me to get a spell off on the monster.  Casting times are way to long.  They need to be shortened.  I hate going through fights where I contribute nothing.  That really ticks me off.  Adjust the recast time to account for the shortened casting times. </div><div> </div><div>2.)  The primary damage issue's that wizards have is suffered across both EQ and EQII.  The problem is with the auto attack that the burst damage melee have.  Melee in addition to thier massive damage attacks which rivals that of the wizard also have an auto attack.  This means they are always dishing out damage in addition to their bust damage.  Wizards as it stands right now don't have this.  The burst spells seem to be in check with each other (between the wizard classes and the melee classes).  But the auto attack throws things out of wack.  The solution seems fairly easy.  Give Wizards an auto attack, maybe wands that hurl fire and ice at the target (this also helps with issue 1).  Let it be affected by the proc buffs.  Give the auto attack weapons the same DPS as the melee weapons.  As with the melee weapons it should not cost power to use, and should be constant just like melee weapons.  Probelm fixed.  Adjusting spell damange will fix the short term but as better and better equipment gets introduced the spell damage will be thrown out of wack again.  This prevents that. </div><div> </div><div>What do you all think?</div><hr></blockquote>I love this idea. If I am spamming nukes (all adept 3 or master) with no care of agro. I mean all out nuking. I can get dps up to 700 - 900 max. Typical situation is around 400-500 dps for wizards w/ agro control and utility (power feeds or whatever). I'm seeing necro's and conjurers getting 2,000 dps consistantly, although they do have agro problems even with amends. If we had an auto attack feature that would be the spell equivelent of melee damage, it would bring our dps up another 200 - 300, which would at least be closer to Tier 1 damage output. It would have to be a max range effect though, I dont like getting burned down in 1 shot by a 4k ae nuke! lol</div><div> </div><div>I do not think it should be a melee discipline though, as Bluesun mentioned, such as crushing, piercing --- It should be a spell attack.</div><div> </div><div>It would be cool to equip different weapons for resistent mobs. Have an ice, fire, magic, divine, etc.. weapon we could switch out. Would be fun and a take a bit more thought in playing our character vs. being a button pusher <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Lerxt</div><p>Message Edited by Cowtothesky on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:46 PM</span></p>

[BlueS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cowtothesky wrote:<div></div><div>I do not think it should be a melee discipline though, as Bluesun mentioned, such as crushing, piercing --- It should be a spell attack.</div><div> </div><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>A spell attack is no good. If we are going against a mob that is not resistant or immune to anything we throw at it, our DPS is through the roof. Fight a heroic or non-heroic with any class and you will discover that our DPS is often times right where it should be. I parse all the time, and I am ALWAYS in the top 3 DPS in the group, usually the top 1. The only ones that have a chance of beating me are rangers/assassins of an equal or higher level, and wizards/warlocks of an equal or higher level. On rare occasions a tank will have an abnormally high dps due to strange buffs on them such as our shields (although this usually only happens on fast dying mobs where we don't get a chance to big nuke). This is assuming that the mobs stay alive long enough for us to CAST of course. If it dies before we get a spell off then obviously our DPS is low, so I'm only talking mobs that are white or higher.The place in which our DPS is really poor is in RAID situations. The reason we are low in DPS on a raid is because there are basically no buffs that up our DPS but there are buffs that up CRUSHING PIERCING SLASHING damage. Another reason our DPS is low on raids is because mobs are immune or resistant to heat/ice (and other forms of magic sometimes). If we are given something that is an auto-attack that is not crushing piercing or slashing, then we are still not getting buffed by our raid friends, which means their DPS goes up, and ours does not. If we are given something that is an auto-attack that is ice or heat, then it will not affect our DPS hardly at all versus mobs that are immune or resistant to heat and ice.So basically, what would help our DPS in RAIDS? Faster casting times, mobs less immune or resistant, the ability to do crushing piercing or slashing damage, or better debuffs and buffs involving ice and heat.What would help our DPS in group situations? Well, we don't need much of a DPS boost in groups, but faster casting times and better buffs and debuffs would certainly help us be more useful.What would help our DPS in solo situations? We don't need a boos there, but faster casting times and more functional roots would help prevent us getting chain stunned/interrupted and thus survive better.</span><div></div>

[Ratril]

<p>An auto attack feature for Wizards and Warlocks would go way far in helping to balance us.  But I know that wont happen.  So far here is what I've seen with my Wizard and I wonder if most of the problems are because of number 2.  Please keep in mind 36 but the problems are self apperant at this point (as they were in EQ, thank god I never played a wizard to 70 in EQ,  I would have been ticked.) and will probably never change.</p><p>1.)  Cast times seem way to long.  The recast seems fine but the casting in and of itself is way to long.  If cast time is lowered agro will be a lot harder to control.  We would probably need more agro management spells.</p><p>2.)  We run out of power way to quickly.  This seems to be the number 1 issue.  A wizard without power = a wizard with no DPS.  In fights that last a long time this is why our DPS is so low.  Rangers assisins ect don't have this issue.  The lowest I've seen a ranger on power in my group has been 60%.  His DPS is just as good or better than mine while I have power and an spamming attacks and then I run out of power and he doesn't.  I'm sitting there out of power and he's still at 60%.  Something is way out of whack there.  Here I'm doing all I can to get power back, I'm standing there stunned doing nothing and he's still spamming all his attacks.  Hello he isn't waisting his time trying to get power back.  End game DPS will fall because you are waisting time trying to maintain power.  This is why we are so far behind on the DPS curve.  We can't maintain the DPS for as long as they can.  If you want that to be fixed then our power costs should be adjusted.  This makes me wonder if using lower level spells won't result in higher DPS.  I might have to do some number crunching to see if that wont be the case.  My guess is it will.  You wont do flashy damage but your DPS might be higher over all.</p><p>3.)  Resistance.  As nukes are basically our only source of damage our nukes should never be 100% resisted.  That is the stupidest thing ever.  Our power cost is really high, our cast time is really high.  Monster resists the spell for 100%.  No, we should get some damage out of it.  We don't have an auto attack.  This is our only source of damage.  It should always hit for something.  Monsters that are 100% resistant to one type of damage is also really stupid.  That's bad game design.  All you are doing to removing the need for classes that do that type of damage.  That should never be the case. </p><p>I know I know newbe posts.  My thoughts can't possibly be correct.  Flame away...</p>

[Cowtothes]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BlueSun wrote:<span><blockquote>The place in which our DPS is really poor is in RAID situations.</blockquote><p> </p><p>Yea, that is what I was referring to in my post. I'm fine with our group dps. All of what I said applies to raiding.</p><p>Resistent mobs are to be expected to some degree. I have recently noticed that alot of mobs are now ice resistent that ddn't use to be, which bothers me.</p><p>I have no trouble with power though. However, I'm in a high dps raiding guild, so mobs die pretty fast. The only time I have problems with power is in group situations where we are constantly pulling mobs with no power break. But, I can usually recover by using my power spells or not engaging immediately to let power restore. Power used to be an issue for me, but not much at all anymore.</p><p>I just want our raiding dps fixed to where wizards are Tier 1 dps as intended. And a spell attack feature would at least be a step in the right direction.</p><p>Lerxt</span></p></blockquote>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<div></div><div></div><p>I am starting to like some kind of auto spell idea that is a no mana cost type of spell, that can be upgraded by your int.  much like str ups everyones mele dmg.</p><p>I think it should be a new AA, that is a perminant castable buff, and there should be different varieties, with different delays, based off your primary weapon, which would follow the current aa line up.  I would like to see this replace the str like of mele crits.</p><p>something along the lines of</p><p>the multitasker's mind</p><p>"you have trained your body and mind to allow you to deal out fire/ice damage over time while still being able to cast combat spells"</p><p>2.0 delay(it would recharge immidiately after each casting, much like mele weapons so that in between spells it would fire)</p><p>75-150 dmg base, 150-300 max int fire dmg and</p><p>75-150 dmg base, 150-300 max int ice dmg</p><p>range of 35m</p><p>duration 12hr perminant buff.</p><p>it should be activateable by using the ranged attack command, and allow you to toggle on/off, and allow to use it while moving.</p><p> </p><p>if its too powerful of an aa ability,</p><p>then grant it to sorc from day 1, and have it scale with level so that it's at that dmg level at lvl 60.  it will give us the much needed boost and auto attack dmg we need without overpowering our class, and help when we need to conserve power.</p><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:36 AM</span></p>

[Ratril]

<div>Honestly, I stand by the auto attack.  I don't think it should be a spell.  I think more along the lines of wands, heck even bows would be fine with me.  This way it can be upgraded through drops and player made stuff, just like the melee weapons.  I think wands would make us stand out a bit more (as our spell graphics are kind of dull IMO).  This also helps the "my spells take to long to cast to even do damage to a monster that is pulled" issue.  It doesn't really help us in the solo aspect (depending on playing style of course).  Because it would break root and well you really don't want that happen.  So you wouldn't use them much execpt to finish off a mob when casting a spell just doesn't really make sense to do.  Plus dual wielding wands that are constantly launching fire and ice balls would be awesome to see.  Of course we kind of run into problems with do only wizards and warlocks get these?  Should warlocks get these?  My answer wants to be yes.  As the conjours and necro's don't have these problems (ie the pet is basically the best dot in the game and gives them this ability right now).  Maybe the enchanters should get them, but they have lots of utility so maybe not.  With the auto attack weapons maybe change the 30 second buff that casts a fire dot with any DD spell (sorry cant remember the name) to a 12 hour buff that has a 25%+ chance to proc on the auto attack.  Seems everything we really need is already in place in the current system.  The wands also opens us up to a new aspect of the game that we are currently missing.  Weapons that actually get used that have proc's.  Wouldn't that be cool? </div><div> </div><div>My primary objection to spells is as new weapons and items get introduced into the game the spells will fall to the way side again.  Plus why should only melee have to worry about upgrading their weapons, armor and spells.  Currently I only care about what's the int on the item and can I afford that master spell.  The other classes have to worry about, weapons, armor and spells.  That isn't balanced.  Balancing of classes should be kept simple.  Spells against spells and items against items.  As it stands right now it's spell against spell and that's about it.  Our melee items with DPS are useless to us as we don't melee (unless you're crazy wack of course) and auto attack DPS is actually harder than you think to over come.  It accounts for a huge amount of damage.  How do you balance spells against that?  Do you account for a low DPS weapon or a high DPS weapon?  If you account for a low DPS weapon we will always be on the low end of the DPS scale in the end game.  If you account for a high DPS weapon we will be over powered on the other side as all you had to do to get that high DPS was level up.  That's not fair to the other classes.  To really balance us it will have to come from items.</div><div> </div><div>To account for the buffs have different wands do different types of damage so you can change them out just like the melee.  This solves the "well the other classes have buffs that buff up their DPS on their melee attacks" a lot arguement.  We could get potions that is to be used just like poisions.  Not all that hard really.  The system is already in place.</div><div> </div><div>Don't get me wrong.  I'm not totally against beefing up our spells.  As the hp and mitigation issue's should dicitate that we do more damage than any of the other classes.  Just FYI solo'ing a scout character is so much easier than a wizard.  A wizard can die to a blue monster just as easily as he can die to a yellow.  In fact I have found power and life loss to be about the same when fighting blues and yellows.  Yellows reward more then blue's, so I generally fight yellows as being killed by a blue monster just ticks me off.  A bad round of resists and you better run for the hills with a wizard.  My ranger and assisin don't have the problem of being killed by blue mobs strange enough (I think part of that has to do with equipment is so much easier to get.  Maybe it has something to do with most classes in the game can wear chain armor so chain armor drops like candy).  Yes I have a ranger, assisian, warlock, wizard, brigand, bruiser, inquisiter and by far the wizard is the hardest to solo.  Inquister is slow, but I can last forever against a moster and usually never die.  I have even found solo'ing a warlock to be easier as there aoe's pawns grouped monsters instantly.  Slaughtering grouped monsters gives a lot of xp fast.  I have killed grouped mosters with my wizard yes, but not nearly as fast as I can with warlock.  Any way just food for thought.  I honestly believe wizards will never be balanced.  They never were in EQ, what makes EQII any different?</div>

[mill94]

HAY GUYS I AM GONNA GO LISTEN TO LINKIN PARK.CRAAAAWLING IN MY SKIN, THESE WOUNDS, THEY DO NOT HEAAAAAAL.<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ratril wrote:<div>Honestly, I stand by the auto attack.  I don't think it should be a spell.  I think more along the lines of wands, heck even bows would be fine with me.  This way it can be upgraded through drops and player made stuff, just like the melee weapons.  I think wands would make us stand out a bit more (as our spell graphics are kind of dull IMO).  This also helps the "my spells take to long to cast to even do damage to a monster that is pulled" issue.  It doesn't really help us in the solo aspect (depending on playing style of course).  Because it would break root and well you really don't want that happen.  So you wouldn't use them much execpt to finish off a mob when casting a spell just doesn't really make sense to do.  Plus dual wielding wands that are constantly launching fire and ice balls would be awesome to see.  Of course we kind of run into problems with do only wizards and warlocks get these?  Should warlocks get these?  My answer wants to be yes.  As the conjours and necro's don't have these problems (ie the pet is basically the best dot in the game and gives them this ability right now).  Maybe the enchanters should get them, but they have lots of utility so maybe not.  With the auto attack weapons maybe change the 30 second buff that casts a fire dot with any DD spell (sorry cant remember the name) to a 12 hour buff that has a 25%+ chance to proc on the auto attack.  Seems everything we really need is already in place in the current system.  The wands also opens us up to a new aspect of the game that we are currently missing.  Weapons that actually get used that have proc's.  Wouldn't that be cool? </div><div> </div><div>My primary objection to spells is as new weapons and items get introduced into the game the spells will fall to the way side again.  Plus why should only melee have to worry about upgrading their weapons, armor and spells.  Currently I only care about what's the int on the item and can I afford that master spell.  The other classes have to worry about, weapons, armor and spells.  That isn't balanced.  Balancing of classes should be kept simple.  Spells against spells and items against items.  As it stands right now it's spell against spell and that's about it.  Our melee items with DPS are useless to us as we don't melee (unless you're crazy wack of course) and auto attack DPS is actually harder than you think to over come.  It accounts for a huge amount of damage.  How do you balance spells against that?  Do you account for a low DPS weapon or a high DPS weapon?  If you account for a low DPS weapon we will always be on the low end of the DPS scale in the end game.  If you account for a high DPS weapon we will be over powered on the other side as all you had to do to get that high DPS was level up.  That's not fair to the other classes.  To really balance us it will have to come from items.</div><div> </div><div>To account for the buffs have different wands do different types of damage so you can change them out just like the melee.  This solves the "well the other classes have buffs that buff up their DPS on their melee attacks" a lot arguement.  We could get potions that is to be used just like poisions.  Not all that hard really.  The system is already in place.</div><div> </div><div>Don't get me wrong.  I'm not totally against beefing up our spells.  As the hp and mitigation issue's should dicitate that we do more damage than any of the other classes.  Just FYI solo'ing a scout character is so much easier than a wizard.  A wizard can die to a blue monster just as easily as he can die to a yellow.  In fact I have found power and life loss to be about the same when fighting blues and yellows.  Yellows reward more then blue's, so I generally fight yellows as being killed by a blue monster just ticks me off.  A bad round of resists and you better run for the hills with a wizard.  My ranger and assisin don't have the problem of being killed by blue mobs strange enough (I think part of that has to do with equipment is so much easier to get.  Maybe it has something to do with most classes in the game can wear chain armor so chain armor drops like candy).  Yes I have a ranger, assisian, warlock, wizard, brigand, bruiser, inquisiter and by far the wizard is the hardest to solo.  Inquister is slow, but I can last forever against a moster and usually never die.  I have even found solo'ing a warlock to be easier as there aoe's pawns grouped monsters instantly.  Slaughtering grouped monsters gives a lot of xp fast.  I have killed grouped mosters with my wizard yes, but not nearly as fast as I can with warlock.  Any way just food for thought.  I honestly believe wizards will never be balanced.  They never were in EQ, what makes EQII any different?</div><hr></blockquote><p>good points and I have heard that suggestion before.  The problem is that the game already has 2 good primary slot items for mages, the pris 1 and the pris 2.  If they made some kind of dps style wand it would most likely have to be swapped out for the pris1 and/or pris 2.  I had thought about making it take up a ranged slot to try to balance it out, but the scope of it would be much larger than simply adding a new spell that scales with level.</p><p>no need for crafting makes less work on the dev's end, to make the books, recipies, plant each tier on mob's / bosses, and adjust each tier's app1 - adp3's. </p><p> </p><p>They *could* just up the dmg from our firey convultions line by 50%, reduce its mana cost to 0, and increase its duration to 24s with a 6s recast.  that would go a long way towards an auto attack style of dmg.  It also wouldn't throw the solo game out of whack, because its a dot and it would break root, but primarily help in group and raid instances.</p>

[Nimington]

<div></div><p>Well little bit of info from Blackguard on where we should sit in DPS (well reflected info not a direct statement) taken from <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47745#M47745">here.</a></p><p></p><hr><p><font color="#9933ff">We'll continue to work with procs until we're comfortable with how they function. To those crying doom and gloom for the Ranger class: Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be.</font>If you want further clarification on the proc changes we've been making, especially the first one, read on.As you know, there are many weapons in game that proc extra damage when they land an attack in combat (for example, imbued crafted weapons). In order to ensure that no style of weapon was more likely to proc than any other, we base a weapon's chance to proc on its delay. In other words, a slower weapon has a higher chance to proc because it lands fewer attacks; a faster weapon has a lower chance to proc on each hit because it lands its attacks more often. This keeps dual-wield, one-handed, and two-handed weapons on par with each other in their chance to proc.Some buffs also provide a chance to proc extra damage on a successful attack. Because we even out the proc chance based on delay, such buffs work equally well regardless of weapon type.These buffs also have a chance to proc via combat arts. However, there is a bug on the live servers in that the proc chance for combat arts was also being calculated based on the delay of whatever weapon was equipped. Some players have been using this to their advantage by deliberately equipping slow weapons in order to give their fast-casting combat arts a better chance to proc.As of Live Update #20, combat arts will base their chance to trigger a proc on the casting time of the art itself. Weapon delay will no longer affect any combat art's chance to trigger a proc.<font color="#9933ff">Certain classes will feel the effects of this change more than others. Scouts (especially rangers) were more likely to benefit from this bug than other melee classes, which contributed to scout damage being higher overall than it should have been--especially in relation to mages.</font>While no class likes to see a reduction in the damage it does, the alternative would be to not only increase the damage output of other classes to compensate, but also to proportionately increase the health pools of NPCs to account for this rise in player damage. The second option would involve a lot more changes and would be prone to introducing other imbalances into the game.While not doing anything about this bug would be preferable to some, we cannot ignore the progressively more significant effect it is having as the game evolves. Fixing this issue will help bring many of the classes back into their intended range of damage output as we discussed around the time of LU13 and the combat revamp.Keep in mind that if you play a melee class but don't rely on a slow weapon to generate extra procs, this fix should have little impact on your style of play.</p><div></div><p><font color="#999999">Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</font></p><p></p><hr><p><font color="#9933ff">Colors added by me for emphasis</font></p>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><div></div><p>Blackguard had a bit of additional clarification, btw. A direct statement in the thread below</p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47789#M47789">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47789#M47789</a></p><p>quoted</p><p>"I suppose I should clarify my blunt statement a bit more. Rangers are currently in their own tier of damage versus single targets in group combat. <strong><font color="#ff0000">Indeed, they are supposed to be in the top tier of damage along with the likes of Wizards, Warlocks, and Assassins</font>,</strong> but as it stands now, they outshine each of those classes by too wide a margin. That is being corrected."</p><p>color added by me for emphasis</p><p>Message Edited by Prandtl on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:13 PM</span></p>

[Nimington]

<div><font color="#9933ff">Yah, although I was more concerned with the fact that they are at least offically working to bring people back into the tier system.  So hopefully we'll see some more restructuring and perhaps they'll get around to fixing enchanters one of these days too.  Lol if they can't be croud controll at raids they need to be other types of utility, perhaps even dps utility by adding more buffs and whatnot.</font></div>

[chorpie]

<div></div><div></div><p>the only real problem that i see coming up is that it is very easy for melee classes to get fabled gear, but the only real fabled gear that casters can get (that is uber) can only be gotten via the raid method.  Not everyone raids, or is interested in raiding.  You don't see fabled wands or robes dropping in Scornfeather's...  Then there's the spells.  Casters are so heavily reliant on spells but at the high end, half the spells are resisted at adept III, even Master II.  If there were a way to obtain fabled gear/master spells for casters as easily as it is for the melee classes, high end wizard combat in groups might pick up a bit.  the damage output from screenshots of master 61-70 spells looks promising, but we won't know until next week, eh?</p><p>The combat I'm talking about is stuff like fighting the lvl 65 mobs in PP where the melee classes have no problems hitting (without debuffs) yet i am resisted half the time.  Tried the SC raid, and was worthless.</p><p> </p><p>lvl 60 wizard - Butcherblock</p><p>Message Edited by chorpie on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:54 AM</span></p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>chorpie wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>The combat I'm talking about is stuff like fighting the lvl 65 mobs in PP where the melee classes have no problems hitting (without debuffs) yet i am resisted half the time.  Tried the SC raid, and was worthless.</p><p>lvl 60 wizard - Butcherblock</p><p>Message Edited by chorpie on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:54 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>hello didn't know you were on bb, lets duo some time!  in game name Illu.</p><p>on another note, I've been through poets dozens of times and the orange con mobs, mele definately have issues with landing ca's.  If they get resisted, they dont recharge like spells do.  They have to wait until the recast timer refreshes.  Orange con mobs is usually the only time I can fight for top dps against preds.  If there is a warlock we usually come in #1 and #2.</p>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>chorpie wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>the only real problem that i see coming up is that it is very easy for melee classes to get fabled gear, but the only real fabled gear that casters can get (that is uber) can only be gotten via the raid method.  Not everyone raids, or is interested in raiding.  You don't see fabled wands or robes dropping in Scornfeather's...  Then there's the spells.  Casters are so heavily reliant on spells but at the high end, half the spells are resisted at adept III, even Master II.  If there were a way to obtain fabled gear/master spells for casters as easily as it is for the melee classes, high end wizard combat in groups might pick up a bit.  the damage output from screenshots of master 61-70 spells looks promising, but we won't know until next week, eh?</p><p>The combat I'm talking about is stuff like fighting the lvl 65 mobs in PP where the melee classes have no problems hitting (without debuffs) yet i am resisted half the time.  Tried the SC raid, and was worthless.</p><p> </p><p>lvl 60 wizard - Butcherblock</p><p>Message Edited by chorpie on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:54 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>In PP melee classes miss their CA way way way more than Wizards get resisted.</p><p>For this reason I usually don't bring melee DPS since they simply miss to much. Average DPS for an assasin for example againsted the creature of beauty is about 30-90 DPS. Average Wizard DPS is like 100-300. Trust me Wizards get restisted much much less than melees do.</p>

[Cowtothes]

<div></div><p>The key to hitting mobs in these zones is disruption. Warlocks have a sweet disruption buff and I've been grabbing as much of the disruption gear as I can get.</p><p>Lerxt</p>

[TheGReddy]

I didnt want to read everysingle post out there so sorry if i rewrote things. anyway i argee. compared to the SUPER HIGH FREAKEN DPS OF RANGERS...sorry...we are nothing. it takes us like 3 secs to do a good attack and a ranger could probably get a monster dead in like 2 secs so we r at a disadvantage especially for groups. say if a group had like 3 scouts we would have absolutely no time to cast our spells. but thats only if a group would actually get 3 scouts which is not a bad idea.

[Racmo]

Sevman------------------------Anyways, just posted this in the Warlocks forums.  I enjoy my class but it gimped as hell  and cant DUEL for [Removed for Content].  Anyways, I am working on my ranger alt.  Its a fun class to play and I cannot imagine how a raiding guild would choose a mage/sorcerer type over a ranger/assassin/brigand/necro/conjuror.-----------------------You should probably stop playing your ranger alt.  After the nerfs we'll be hanging out in upper tier 3 lower tier 2.  It's my experience that you never ever ever want the top DPS spot.  You want to be number 2.Tobi<div></div>

[Nimington]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Racmoor wrote:SevmanYou should probably stop playing your ranger alt.  After the nerfs we'll be hanging out in upper tier 3 lower tier 2.  <font color="#ff0099">It's my experience that you never ever ever want the top DPS spot.  You want to be number 2.</font>Tobi<div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#9933ff">Sadly enough this is true <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Unless the difference is so marginal as to be under 1%) SOMEONE will cry havoc and the nerf stick will land.   As for rangers being in T2 or T3 well that depends on how you look at it.  If your think doing less than a necro/conj puts you as T3 (because they are listed as T2) you run into the problem that they are (debatable as everything does change) or can be doing to much damage.  Instead you should only compare yourself to other listed T1 classes.  Thus if you are hitting similar numbers in different situations as the other 3 T1 classes you are doing fine.  If a T2 class passes you up but you are even w/ the other T1 people then obviously it is them that are too high, not you that is too low.  </font></p><p><font color="#9933ff">The interesting debate I see is every class saying that their own abilities not directly set to damage are worthless and should not effect the damage equation, but the other class as XXX uber ability that should make YYY class have more damage for the lack.  The debate gets silly because in RP and fantasy-logic you can justify anyone doing more than any other, but with the Tier system Sony provided you have a scale that dose not need to debate the ups and downs of a class.  Simply put Sony has debated the utility, defense, extra widgest of each class and decided what people have given up and decided what that should cost.  This in theory covers the low armor on wizards, the ammo cost on rangers the spiffy wikies on enchanters or whatnot.  </font></p><p><font color="#9933ff">What really needs to be disclosed next from Sony is where they intend each class to sit.  Example Brigands are amazing single target debuffers and that is one of thier primary jobs (was posted by a dev in beta bords for DoF).  We need this information for the T1 classes to help people decide where they want to be.  Many players need to be the best at something so if we give them the info as to what they are supposed to be best at it will help them find the right home.  For example is Ranger supposed to be the best long distance runner for dps (constant high dps for a  long time)? Are Wizard the sprinter for LOTS of up front damage but needing that long cool down?  Is the Warlock supposed to be the greatest aoe dps?  Are the Assasins supposed to be the highest 'on demand' damage (lots of damage NOW but for a very short window).  These are just random ideas that make sence to ME from what I see, but the problem here is every class is going to disagree because they see thier class differently than I do and with out SOME kind of guide from Sony ALL opinions are the right one for the game.</font></p><p><font color="#9933ff"></font> </p><p><font color="#9933ff">Wow, didn't mean for a simple reply to turn into an essay.</font></p>