MAX DMG raised 10%, MIN DMG lower 50%+ OUCH

[finnean]

<DIV>Seems most spells have had this change.  Man this sucks just nuke mob for just over 1000 with ice comet.  Hope this dont hit live ;(</DIV>

[Magiocracy]

Yup, they managed to break both Wizards and Warlocks in one go. WTG SOE. <div></div>

[Tanit]

Just tested a bit, and it seems to be completely random. <div></div>

[Magiocracy]

Agreed, have had both min and max values in the same fight - puts us at the mercy of the RNG and gives us incredibly streaky dps that simply isn't acceptable for the two main dps classes. <div></div>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> finnean wrote:<BR> <DIV>Seems most spells have had this change.  Man this sucks just nuke mob for just over <FONT color=#ff3300>1000 with ice comet.</FONT>  Hope this dont hit live ;(</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT size=6>HOLY GOD!!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=6></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>This is OUTRAGEOUS.  if ice Comet, our great Coup d'Grace nuke even has A CHANCE to hit for 1,000 damage I AM QUITTING!. I knew this revamp would be bad, but [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], this bad?</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=6></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=6></FONT> </DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<P>If our roots were improved back to unbreakable - who cares, but as we stand we are in trouble.</P> <P>Help!!!</P>

[Magiocracy]

For once I agree with TP <span>:smileywink:</span> Here's another example of the Ice Comet scaling At INT 313, Ice Comet Adept3. ~1900-5800 dmg That's a 4,000 point variation. <div></div>

[MilkToa]

<DIV>This is the kind of change that really makes you question SOE's behavior and motives. It is hard for me to believe that a change of this magnitude wasn't under consideration for quite a while, and if it was why wait until 3 days before the expansion goes live to make it? Why does SOE make several posts  talking about all the balancing and testing they've done about sorcerer damage and how everything is where they want it and then do this? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arghh, I feel like a need to go take a shower.</DIV><p>Message Edited by MilkToast on <span class=date_text>09-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:45 PM</span>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>What do you think is the reasoning for this?:smileysurprised:</DIV>

[Khalay]

<P>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Thats insane. In this i think the Wiz and Warlock community must speak with one voice!! This CANNOT GO LIVE!</P> <P> </P> <P>The ramification for generating hate suddenly turns completely random. There is A LOT of difference in aggro between hitting for 1k and 4k. When the difference is between 3-4k then its much easier to predict the amount of aggro you are going to recieve. With this change damage will be total lotto.</P> <P>This is a really bad change.</P>

[Traldan Omegafyre]

I'm disappointed.  I was almost starting to enjoy the Combat Changes. <div></div>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>Khabalis is speaking up about this for warlocks but I do not know who is representing the wizards on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am worried.</DIV>

[Amistead]

<P>Man.  This is bad.  Dammit Khabalis, I was just about happy with the revamp.  Bleh.</P> <P> </P> <P>Alezara</P> <P>Warlock of the 50th Order</P> <P>-=Pandemonium/Unrest=-</P>

[The_D]

<P>OMG this is insane.</P> <P>I am not going to comment on IC, but more generally we have just had our DPS decreased by 10% across the board (on average).</P> <P>There is some statistical play, due to the nature of number ranges, but</P> <P>If a spell 1000-2000 damage, it would now do 500-2200, so our average damage on this spell went from 1500 to 1350, or 10% down.</P> <P> </P>

[Magiocracy]

<div></div>Well, a small patch just went onto beta..and no change. Nice to see the devs listening to our concerns..NOT. The dps reduction is more like 20% due to the totally random nature of the damage output now, but the total dps is only one effect of this change. 1. Aggro control just got impossible. How in the name of God to the devs expect Wizards/Warlocks to be able to gauge aggro  if the possible damage  ranges on their spells  is 50-60% of the total spell damage. 2. Power usage. Now there are many cases where I have to cast two spells where I used to only cast one. Our power usage was hit hard already but this is insane. If it takes 40-50% of my power to kill a blue then something is seriously screwed. 3. No skill. Wizard/Warlock's ability to perform their primary function is now less a matter of skill and strategy and more a matter of what the RNG decides to do.  I don't know about others but I prefer less rather than more randomness in the game. All in all a thoroughly thoroughly insane change. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class=date_text>09-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:02 AM</span>

[Dejah]

<P>Wow, that's pretty crazy.</P> <P>When I read about these changes in the patch notes I didn't know that's what they really did.  </P> <P>What I thought they were doing was making it so that a spell always landed in its dmg range, but where in that range depended on the mob's resists.  So that, for example (with made up numbers) ice comet had a dmg range of 1000-5000, if you nuked a mob with no cold resists you hit at nearly 5000, but if you nuked a mob with lots of cold resists you'd only do 1000. </P> <P>If what you guys say is right though thats completely insane.  I can't imagine nuking the same mob twice, once getting over 5k dmg, and the next getting only 2k dmg.  Aggro management just became a nightmare.  This wouldn't be a problem if we only had small to medium sized nukes, because then it would easily average out.  But with gigantic nukes like ice comet it's going to be all over the place.  When I'm grouping, in Sol Eye for example, I may get to use ice comet on every other giant due to the recast time, and nothing shy of an epic monster has ever recieved multiple ice comets in one fight (not counting soloing).  </P> <P>At this point, I'm trying not to freak out.  If it's completely random in that range, this is really really bad.  But I'm hoping that there is some sort of bellcurve in there.  Don't suppose anyone is up to gathering some data and whipping up a plot for us.  Log Ball of Flames (decent recast so it won't take ages) 100 times on the same mob.  If you send me the log I can help by compiling the results and posting them here.</P>

[Renaven]

<DIV>This change is COMPLETE crap.  You need to reduce the variation back down to the way it was before.  Would you rather see us play a class that is so random that any newb will be able to effectively play it, due to the randomness of our damage?  Some fights fighters will out-dps us if we have bad luck.  Our spells need to have a lower variation, so true skill will shine, and wizards/warlocks will finally have the feeling of having so much DPS they don't know what to do with -- this will make aggro extremely important to manage, and will differentiate newbs with people who know their class.  In the current system, you have no way of telling if the next hit will do 6000 damage, or 1000.  This is too much of a difference and is unacceptible.  Change it back now.</DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dejah wrote:<BR> <P>Wow, that's pretty crazy.</P> <P>When I read about these changes in the patch notes I didn't know that's what they really did.  </P> <P>What I thought they were doing was making it so that a spell always landed in its dmg range, but where in that range depended on the mob's resists.  So that, for example (with made up numbers) ice comet had a dmg range of 1000-5000, if you nuked a mob with no cold resists you hit at nearly 5000, but if you nuked a mob with lots of cold resists you'd only do 1000. </P> <P>If what you guys say is right though thats completely insane.  I can't imagine nuking the same mob twice, once getting over 5k dmg, and the next getting only 2k dmg.  Aggro management just became a nightmare.  This wouldn't be a problem if we only had small to medium sized nukes, because then it would easily average out.  But with gigantic nukes like ice comet it's going to be all over the place.  When I'm grouping, in Sol Eye for example, I may get to use ice comet on every other giant due to the recast time, and nothing shy of an epic monster has ever recieved multiple ice comets in one fight (not counting soloing).  </P> <P>At this point, I'm trying not to freak out.  If it's completely random in that range, this is really really bad.  But I'm hoping that there is some sort of bellcurve in there.  Don't suppose anyone is up to gathering some data and whipping up a plot for us.  Log Ball of Flames (decent recast so it won't take ages) 100 times on the same mob.  If you send me the log I can help by compiling the results and posting them here.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Great idea....maybe Khabalis can do same for warlocks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any wiz on test willing to follow these great recommendations?</DIV><BR></DIV>

[Magiocracy]

Here you go, a brief sample from me casting Adetp3 Nil Distortion on greys in Antonica - spell damage range is 523-1570 544 1361 1553 562 1213 1079 1185 1568 1013 872 1496 1229 847 820 733 1513 1565 880 588 678 1080 707 1268 553 1347 That's an average of 1050. My previous average from a previous sample of Nil Distortion pre this change was 1255 - a 16% drop in dps Just a rough sampling between the top middle and bottom thirds of the damage range is 36% in bottom third, 20% in middle third and 44% in top third. <div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>My level 26 wizard on test with 110 int using ball of fire master2 (354-1061 dmg) on gnolls in splitpaw: <BR>369, 742, 1040, 703, 594, 694, 963, 634, 520, 650, 714, 450, 1033, 1037, 883, 553, 978, 405, 520, 653, 885, 1009, 925, 571.<BR>Average: 730. Previous ball of fire did about 700-950 = 825 average dmg. DPS lost = 12%.<BR></DIV>

[goboy]

<DIV>Well, concidering all of the intelligence changes they were making - I deleted all of my old log entries recently.  I have nothing to compare my dps to.  I did not expect a big changes this late.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh.</DIV>

[Nitefl]

<DIV>Wow. Just wow. *sigh* and I was one of the bigger defenders of the combat change. Still, I will be optimistic come Sept 13th.. Hoping that great DPS is shared amongst Wizards and Warlocks in a fun class that doesn't leave us at the mercy of the RNG.</DIV>

[killzo]

<P>I want whatever drugs they are doing.</P> <P>This change made me cancel the expansion.  I'm not dealing with this crap anymore.</P>

[Tanit]

Sample from ball of flames hits on lvl50 mobs in sinking sands. My ball of flames range is 573 - 1718 (adept3/332int). 1339 - 1434 - 1027 - 1322 - 1520 - 844 - 983 - 1709 - 1146 - 1213 - 1091 - 1178 - 579 - 1708 - 1084 - 1710 - 1389 - 921 - 1267 - 1070 <div></div>

[Kaxx]

I am a level 50 Wiz. I just played around in Beta this morning looking at the new spells and it looks like I am hanging up my robes. This wont be fun. Ice comet hit for 1200 one shot and 4300 the next, its to random to depend your life on. All the other spells are the same way. These test where on level 45's and they got me down to half my hit points <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Had to run from a level 50, I was getting interrupted to much. <div></div>

[Traldan Omegafyre]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kaxx wrote:I am a level 50 Wiz. I just played around in Beta this morning looking at the new spells and it looks like I am hanging up my robes. This wont be fun. Ice comet hit for 1200 one shot and 4300 the next, its to random to depend your life on. All the other spells are the same way. These test where on level 45's and they got me down to half my hit points <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Had to run from a level 50, I was getting interrupted to much. <div></div> <hr></blockquote>Yeah, I had a similar experience.  Very, VERY, disappointed in this change.</span><div></div>

[Magiocracy]

Just a quick comment for those you have tried this change in Beta.Please remember to /feedback your comments about the change and also add your comments to the approporiate thread in the beta boards.Thanks<div></div>

[goboy]

<DIV>Also, if some wizards on beta could try piercing icicles debuff.  I have had mixed results using it.  From my initial assessment, I would say that debuffs will help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Magiocracy]

Folks, this just in from the beta boards :<div><font color="#cc0000">The ranges should be narrowed down a bit closer to what we actually meant in the next beta update today. </font><font color="#cc0000"><img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"></font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">The idea isn't to depower the casters.  Now that spells are hitting for in their stated range, guaranteed, with bonuses from int, without reduction due to NPC mitigation, the ranges were widened some.  </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">We aren't trying to widen them to where the variability reduces your ability to determine if you can take a creature of a given /con, but there does need to be some in there so the common case isn't: 4s casting (nonaggro) opener.  Boom.  Mob down to 35% health.  One more spell.  Boom.  Mob dead before it gets to me.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">There definitely needs to be a chance of that godlike feeling, but that isn't supposed to be the common case.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">- Scott</font></div> <p><font color="#cc0000">____</font><font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc0000">Scott Hartsman</font><font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc0000">Senior Producer, EverQuest II</font> </p><div></div>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magiocracy wrote:<BR>Folks, this just in from the beta boards :<BR><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>The ranges should be narrowed down a bit closer to what we actually meant in the next beta update today. </FONT><FONT color=#cc0000><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>The idea isn't to depower the casters.  Now that spells are hitting for in their stated range, guaranteed, with bonuses from int, without reduction due to NPC mitigation, the ranges were widened some.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>We aren't trying to widen them to where the variability reduces your ability to determine if you can take a creature of a given /con, but there does need to be some in there so the common case isn't: 4s casting (nonaggro) opener.  Boom.  Mob down to 35% health.  One more spell.  Boom.  Mob dead before it gets to me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>There definitely needs to be a chance of that godlike feeling, but that isn't supposed to be the common case.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>- Scott</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>____</FONT><FONT color=#cc0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#cc0000>Scott Hartsman</FONT><FONT color=#cc0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#cc0000>Senior Producer, EverQuest II</FONT> </P><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It seems to me like Scott Hartsman is stuck doing damage control for a development staff that doesn't really think through the changes it is making. I hope he puts someone in charge of that group that has some common sense.</P> <P> </P>

[Lady Uaelr]

I hope everyone realizes that SOE is reading these posts and trying address them. We <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0099 size=4>MUST</FONT></STRONG> continue to verbalize our issues.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lady Uaelrea wrote:<BR> <DIV>Khabalis is speaking up about this for warlocks but I do not know who is representing the wizards on test. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>There are a few of us, all my feedback goes in the private forums and I have made my opinion of the change to IC well know to the devs. It is listed as ~1900-5700 or so for me and it rarely lands for over 2300, and that is after debuffing the mob with a imbued hex doll. The other wizzies are having different results, it seems all over the board now for damage, but in general, our class defining spell can no longer be counted on to deliver that killing blow. There was also no change made to the recast, so you can wait the full long reuse timer just to land a spell that does barely more damage than our lessor nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My favorite was, the zone in single down arrow mobs in Lavastorm (which are green now btw), I have had 100% full resists and minimum damage from IC on them (which is not enough to kill them btw)... mobs ten levels lower than me... ROFL, its a sad joke.</DIV>

[Dejah]

<P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=8025#M8025" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=8025#M8025</A></P> <P>Beta Update 9/11/05 Part II</P> <P><STRONG>Wizard changes:</STRONG></P> <P>- Ball of Fire, Ball of Flames, Ball of Incineration, and Ice Comet now have reduced variance and increased [damage]</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>So what does it look like now? </P>

[Tanit]

Did some testing with ball of flames again, which is now 846 - 1572 (adept3/350int) 899 1190 1226 983 1376 1268 1393 1435 1268 1019 1269 1558 962 1565 1078 1143 1363 1422 933 1180 1534 avg: 1241 Ice comet is now 2819 - 5235 <div></div>

[Lady Uaelr]

You guys are doing a great job...keep it coming......they know the community is well aware of what is going on. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am very impressed with the great job all of you testers are doing and the information you are sharing with us.</DIV>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MilkToast wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magiocracy wrote:<BR>Folks, this just in from the beta boards :<BR><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>The ranges should be narrowed down a bit closer to what we actually meant in the next beta update today. </FONT><FONT color=#cc0000><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>The idea isn't to depower the casters.  Now that spells are hitting for in their stated range, guaranteed, with bonuses from int, without reduction due to NPC mitigation, the ranges were widened some.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>We aren't trying to widen them to where the variability reduces your ability to determine if you can take a creature of a given /con, but there does need to be some in there so the common case isn't: 4s casting (nonaggro) opener.  Boom.  Mob down to 35% health.  One more spell.  Boom.  Mob dead before it gets to me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>There definitely needs to be a chance of that godlike feeling, but that isn't supposed to be the common case.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>- Scott</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>____</FONT><FONT color=#cc0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#cc0000>Scott Hartsman</FONT><FONT color=#cc0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#cc0000>Senior Producer, EverQuest II</FONT> </P><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It seems to me like Scott Hartsman is stuck doing damage control for a development staff that doesn't really think through the changes it is making. I hope he puts someone in charge of that group that has some common sense.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes and I can assure it is not only casters getting hurt. You cannot imagine the problems with Fighters with 1 day to go. We are just hoping that he will find time to look into that side as well.<BR>

[Za'Had]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Transcript from SoE Devs meeting on Sorcerer DPS (Not for publication)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>- Hey Bill tell us !</FONT></P> <P>- We're gonna increase the max. dam. by 10%</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>- Eugene are you nuts !!!! You're supposed to nerf them</FONT></P> <P>- Ah but we decreased the min. dam. by 50%, The suckers wont even know it, good laugh no ?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>- Mwuhaaa, good job Stephen, now go work on the roots and let me know what we do about that the next meeting</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>- Yes sir !</FONT></P>

[brow27]

ROFLMAO LOL ROFLOL!!!11eleven!!11! Dude you're an idiot, shut your trap.  Sony, and no other company that makes MMOs, have any desire to specifically cause issues for any class.  It's all about money, and if they screw over a class intentionally for kicks, people will quit and they will lose money.  Companies do NOT do this.  Now if you want to make jokes about evil money grubbing suits trying to steal all your money by releasing expansions, fine.  It would still be stupid, but at least ten times more reasonable than your pathetic satire. <div></div>

[Grimm]

didn't they remove mitigation and make debuffs more meaningful?  even if the spell damage was lowered, damage to mobs may well have been increased <div></div>

[Za'Had]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brow27 wrote:<BR>ROFLMAO LOL ROFLOL!!!11eleven!!11!<BR><BR>Dude you're an idiot, shut your trap.  Sony, and no other company that makes MMOs, have any desire to specifically cause issues for any class.  It's all about money, and if they screw over a class intentionally for kicks, people will quit and they will lose money.  Companies do NOT do this.  Now if you want to make jokes about evil money grubbing suits trying to steal all your money by releasing expansions, fine.  It would still be stupid, but at least ten times more reasonable than your pathetic satire.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dont get upset, its only a game, peace