So am i the only wizard that is complaining about no group debuff for heat and cold now???/

[OneBadAli]

<DIV>So im looking over the beta boards, and over the spell changes/feedback forums and i see tons of warlocks expressing their concerns about changes, and u know what? They are being listened to, and devs ARE making changes that favor warlocks.</DIV> <DIV>Now when it comes to wizards their is absolutely zero feedback, nothing is going to change for us if we dont express our concerns about some of the changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are slowly being nerfed in beta to the point that warlocks will still be far superior to us (at the beginning of beta changes wizards were on par with warlocks, maybe slighly superior). The main reason for us being nerfed on beta is because WIZARDS DO NOT EXPRESS HOW THEY FEEL AT ALL, and warlocks are constantly (100's of posts) complaining about wizard dps, etc etc. The end result is wizards are being nerfed over and over on the beta and warlocks are getting buffed and buffed and buffed and buffed to the point they are happy again (which means we are back to where we  were on live  Warlocks > Wizards in about every category).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An example of something u think other wizards would complain about (and not just myself). WE no longer have a group debuff for heat/cold (so those buffs to our aoe's arent going to matter becaause we will either be resisted alot more, OR our aoe's will land for 1/2 the damage they are suppose to).</DIV> <DIV>This should be a serious topic for wizards and one we should of let the devs know how we feel about losing our ability to debuff for heat/cold on group mobs (we only have piercing icicles which is a single target debuff for heat/cold (that was severely nerfed).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Their are many things that wizards should be concerned with, and should be expressing the way they feel either on the beta boards, or the combat changes feedback forums. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am just at a loss for words as to why warlocks have 100's if not 1000's of posts about combat changes that they didnt like or want changed (and btw they are/were changed) yet wizards have literally nothing they are concerned with. </DIV> <DIV>So i guess were just gonna sit back and let warlocks whine (which means we get nerfed more) and at the same time dont even bring up major problems our class will have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Roots nerfed</DIV> <DIV>-DPS is still lower then warlocks (unless its just a single target mob with no adds(then we  just slightly out dps them), and we all know that in a raid environment were are stepchildren to warlocks when it comes to dps, this is still the case.</DIV> <DIV>-WE had our  aoe buffed, yet no longer have a debuff for heat and cold on group mobs (which means our aoes actually werent buffed).</DIV> <DIV>- Protoflame was nerfed (yes it was overpowered but still, now netheros is a better pet, and yes its a warlocks pet). Thanks again.</DIV> <DIV>-Immolation is a nerf.</DIV> <DIV>-Surging tempest is now a level 58 spell and is nefed hardcore. (thanks warlocks for the nerf)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its really sad that you guys dont care about your class enough to let the devs know how u feel, i dont understand how all the warlocks unite to fight for the changes they want and all of us wizards just sit on our fat as s's and do nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[blynchehaun]

So, are you on test, or are you just mouthing off? Going by what you've written (as compared to the other Wizards on test), you're <b>not</b> on test........ <div></div>

[Magiocracy]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>OneBadAlien wrote:<div>So im looking over the beta boards, and over the spell changes/feedback forums and i see tons of warlocks expressing their concerns about changes, and u know what? They are being listened to, and devs ARE making changes that favor warlocks.</div> <div>Now when it comes to wizards their is absolutely zero feedback, nothing is going to change for us if we dont express our concerns about some of the changes.</div> <div> </div> <div>We are slowly being nerfed in beta to the point that warlocks will still be far superior to us (at the beginning of beta changes wizards were on par with warlocks, maybe slighly superior). The main reason for us being nerfed on beta is because WIZARDS DO NOT EXPRESS HOW THEY FEEL AT ALL, and warlocks are constantly (100's of posts) complaining about wizard dps, etc etc. The end result is wizards are being nerfed over and over on the beta and warlocks are getting buffed and buffed and buffed and buffed to the point they are happy again (which means we are back to where we  were on live  Warlocks > Wizards in about every category).</div> <div> </div> <div>An example of something u think other wizards would complain about (and not just myself). WE no longer have a group debuff for heat/cold (so those buffs to our aoe's arent going to matter becaause we will either be resisted alot more, OR our aoe's will land for 1/2 the damage they are suppose to).</div> <div>This should be a serious topic for wizards and one we should of let the devs know how we feel about losing our ability to debuff for heat/cold on group mobs (we only have piercing icicles which is a single target debuff for heat/cold (that was severely nerfed).</div> <div> </div> <div>Their are many things that wizards should be concerned with, and should be expressing the way they feel either on the beta boards, or the combat changes feedback forums. </div> <div> </div> <div>I am just at a loss for words as to why warlocks have 100's if not 1000's of posts about combat changes that they didnt like or want changed (and btw they are/were changed) yet wizards have literally nothing they are concerned with. </div> <div>So i guess were just gonna sit back and let warlocks whine (which means we get nerfed more) and at the same time dont even bring up major problems our class will have.</div> <div> </div> <div>- Roots nerfed</div> <div>-DPS is still lower then warlocks (unless its just a single target mob with no adds(then we  just slightly out dps them), and we all know that in a raid environment were are stepchildren to warlocks when it comes to dps, this is still the case.</div> <div>-WE had our  aoe buffed, yet no longer have a debuff for heat and cold on group mobs (which means our aoes actually werent buffed).</div> <div>- Protoflame was nerfed (yes it was overpowered but still, now netheros is a better pet, and yes its a warlocks pet). Thanks again.</div> <div>-Immolation is a nerf.</div> <div>-Surging tempest is now a level 58 spell and is nefed hardcore. (thanks warlocks for the nerf)</div> <div> </div> <div>Its really sad that you guys dont care about your class enough to let the devs know how u feel, i dont understand how all the warlocks unite to fight for the changes they want and all of us wizards just sit on our fat as s's and do nothing.</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks alot.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>OneBadAlien, It's very simple - Warlocks are/were really really [Removed for Content] about what SOE were doing to our class and we've done our best to do something about it. Wizard's on the whole seem to have been happy with the initial changes and seem to adopted a 'hope SOE won't notice us' approach. Having said that, let me address a couple of things from a Warlocks point of view : 1. The only real specific nerf I can see in the Wizard spelline was Icy Wind - the spell was simply too close to the Warlock's class defining Devastation, so it got changed, as was appropriate. 2. I don't know where you got the idea the Netheros is better than Protoflame - they do exactly the same thing now (ie both are useless again) and ours requires a Nil  Crystal. 3. It was always the case that the three 'new' level 50 spells were going to be relevelled - that was made clear early on in beta. I don;t recall any Warlock ever asking for ST to be turned into a DoT like it is now - I think we'd have been happy if Wizards kept the nuke version at 58 and we got the DoT at 58 instead of the "Nether Region" joke SOE seem intent on inflicting on us. 4. In case you hadn't noticed, with the exception of the unbreakable component on Ring of Cold, roots are now better than ever for both classes. 5. All of the Wizard DoTs were hit when SOE did a general reduction of damage on ALL DoTs in the game (except Devastation). Not a Wizard specific nerf. But you are right about one thing, as Wizards of all people should know, SOE DO listen if you make enough noise, sitting there and hoping for the best is wishful thinking.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class=date_text>09-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 PM</span>

[illy586]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by illy586 on <span class=date_text>09-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:04 PM</span>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>illy586 wrote:Mainly there is gonna be alot more warlocks crying becasue they are getting nerfed while wizards are being buffed. There is also about 5warlocks to 1 wizards because people flocked to the warlock class because of there uber dps, and out right best damage class in the game. <div> </div> <div>Now that the tables have turned you got 100000000 warlocks begging to be the uber dps that they were pre-changes. SOE is known to nerf the [Removed for Content] out of a over power/played class because you start to see nothing but warlocks in the end, if any one played eqoa they no what im talking about, necro's took that game over and destroyed it.</div><hr></blockquote>Actually on most servers Wizards outnumber Warlocks by at least 4:1 If you think asking for broken spells to be fixed is 'crying', then that says more about you than it does about Warlocks.</span><div></div>

[illy586]

<P><SPAN>nm no point in bickring with newbie warlocks.:smileytongue:</SPAN></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by illy586 on <SPAN class=date_text>09-09-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:58 PM          </SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by illy586 on <SPAN class=date_text>09-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:04 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by illy586 on <span class=date_text>09-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:06 PM</span>

[Magiocracy]

Touche <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[curtlewis]

SOE has never been wizard friendly. Even back in EQ1 before that Dev's bard got manaburned by a Wizard (right before manaburn was nerfed to kingdom come). Of course, bards could still charm kite 15 mobs at once, but god forbid a wizard could QUAD! The HORROR!It's the same thing here. Warlocks were massively overpowered from the get go (some Dev plays one obviously) and wizards are much weaker, despite the fact they should be equal but focuses on doing damage of different types by SOE's own definition.The beta/test started out with a major nerf to wizard soloing, but a beefy increase to the dmg, making the wizard desirable for groups and raids. That increase has been scaled back, lowering the desire for wizards in groups and raids.All I know is this. Right now, wizards are mana batteries on raids. That is NOT what a wizard is supposed to be. We are damage dealers, supposedly be the best casting class at doing damage, right next to, and abreast of Warlocks.If we aren't there, SOE has failed in this ner...uh.. revamp.

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OneBadAlien wrote:<BR> <DIV>So im looking over the beta boards, and over the spell changes/feedback forums and i see tons of warlocks expressing their concerns about changes, and u know what? They are being listened to, and devs ARE making changes that favor warlocks.</DIV> <DIV>Now when it comes to wizards their is absolutely zero feedback, nothing is going to change for us if we dont express our concerns about some of the changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are slowly being nerfed in beta to the point that warlocks will still be far superior to us (at the beginning of beta changes wizards were on par with warlocks, maybe slighly superior). The main reason for us being nerfed on beta is because WIZARDS DO NOT EXPRESS HOW THEY FEEL AT ALL, and warlocks are constantly (100's of posts) complaining about wizard dps, etc etc. The end result is wizards are being nerfed over and over on the beta and warlocks are getting buffed and buffed and buffed and buffed to the point they are happy again (which means we are back to where we  were on live  Warlocks > Wizards in about every category).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An example of something u think other wizards would complain about (and not just myself). WE no longer have a group debuff for heat/cold (so those buffs to our aoe's arent going to matter becaause we will either be resisted alot more, OR our aoe's will land for 1/2 the damage they are suppose to).</DIV> <DIV>This should be a serious topic for wizards and one we should of let the devs know how we feel about losing our ability to debuff for heat/cold on group mobs (we only have piercing icicles which is a single target debuff for heat/cold (that was severely nerfed).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Their are many things that wizards should be concerned with, and should be expressing the way they feel either on the beta boards, or the combat changes feedback forums. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am just at a loss for words as to why warlocks have 100's if not 1000's of posts about combat changes that they didnt like or want changed (and btw they are/were changed) yet wizards have literally nothing they are concerned with. </DIV> <DIV>So i guess were just gonna sit back and let warlocks whine (which means we get nerfed more) and at the same time dont even bring up major problems our class will have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Roots nerfed</DIV> <DIV>-DPS is still lower then warlocks (unless its just a single target mob with no adds(then we  just slightly out dps them), and we all know that in a raid environment were are stepchildren to warlocks when it comes to dps, this is still the case.</DIV> <DIV>-WE had our  aoe buffed, yet no longer have a debuff for heat and cold on group mobs (which means our aoes actually werent buffed).</DIV> <DIV>- Protoflame was nerfed (yes it was overpowered but still, now netheros is a better pet, and yes its a warlocks pet). Thanks again.</DIV> <DIV>-Immolation is a nerf.</DIV> <DIV>-Surging tempest is now a level 58 spell and is nefed hardcore. (thanks warlocks for the nerf)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its really sad that you guys dont care about your class enough to let the devs know how u feel, i dont understand how all the warlocks unite to fight for the changes they want and all of us wizards just sit on our fat as s's and do nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Fine, let me go start a thread on combat test changes.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks are complaining that they were brought to human status and now are like a baby with their toy taken away.</DIV>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>curtlewis wrote:SOE has never been wizard friendly. Even back in EQ1 before that Dev's bard got manaburned by a Wizard (right before manaburn was nerfed to kingdom come). Of course, bards could still charm kite 15 mobs at once, but god forbid a wizard could QUAD! The HORROR!It's the same thing here. Warlocks were massively overpowered from the get go (some Dev plays one obviously) and wizards are much weaker, despite the fact they should be equal but focuses on doing damage of different types by SOE's own definition.The beta/test started out with a major nerf to wizard soloing, but a beefy increase to the dmg, making the wizard desirable for groups and raids. That increase has been scaled back, lowering the desire for wizards in groups and raids.All I know is this. Right now, wizards are mana batteries on raids. That is NOT what a wizard is supposed to be. We are damage dealers, supposedly be the best casting class at doing damage, right next to, and abreast of Warlocks.If we aren't there, SOE has failed in this ner...uh.. revamp.<hr></blockquote>Just some random thoughts in response to this (waiting for todays beta patch) : 1. The nerf to soloing you're referring to, I assume is the change to Ring of Cold. Exactly the same thing happened to Bony Grasp. 2. Yet another myth (like the one about Warlocks outnumbering Wizards) is that Warlocks were overpowered from the beginning. At launch Warlock were a good bit worse than Wizards, but three months or so afterwards, some of the critical Warlock spells got revamped (the main one being the Distortion line) while the Wizard spells were left alone - result :  Massive imbalance in the classes for the last 7-8 months. 3. I think the only caster that any dev plays is a Conjurer, I've never seen any of them anywhere talk about playing either a Warlock or a Wizard. 4. The scaling back of Wizard damage over the course of beta was largely due to the Great DoT Nerf - most of your AE's are DoT's, therefore you got hit hardest. 5. You won't be mana batteries on raids for much longer since I believe the Wizard mana pump spells have been hit pretty hard (not 100% certain). 6. Raid resists I think are still going to be the Wizard's nemesis. Don't know if Wizards have seen this before, but here's a post from the beta forums by the dev in charge of both classes, take from it what you will : </span><font color="#cc0000"> As of today's update to Beta, barring any actual broken functionality (i.e. spells not working at all), we're comfortable with where both Wizards and Warlocks are on the burst DPS and over-time DPS on the curves.</font><font color="#cc0000"> </font> <font color="#cc0000"> </font><font color="#cc0000"> Suprisingly, tracking damage done across all of beta, Warlocks rank #1 or #2 in almost every sampling except where I broke a spell for a few days or a spell was doing much less than intended damage (Soul Blister being the wrong spell, etc.).</font><font color="#cc0000"> </font> <font color="#cc0000"> </font><font color="#cc0000"> I am sure there will continue to be tweaks to spells for every spell-casting class continuing past the release of the expansion and revamp. For now, things are pretty close to where they should be by our observations in relation to other Mage subclasses and other professions in general.</font> <div></div>

[MilkToa]

<DIV>OneBadAlien and Tar~Palantir it continually baffles me how you two can attribute all of your class problems to warlocks. Most of the warlock threads I have read relating to the combat revamp have been focused on fixing problems with the warlock class not nerfing wizards. If I had access to the EQ2 code base I can assure you I wouldn't be in there making changes that nerf wizards (although I might actually fix the raid resist problems). Unfortunately, I don't have access so you'll have to live with the changes that SOE makes, so if you're frustrated I suggest you direct your anger in that direction.   Also, making post that are factual in nature without all the emotional baggage may be taken more seriously than your rambling tirades. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really hope that wizards and warlocks are at parity after the combat revamp and it's inexcusable that SOE has taken so long to address many of the problems with the wizard class. I have also been baffled why there hasn't been more activity in the wizard forums related to these problems but I've just assumed everyone is content with the changes being made.</DIV>

[brow27]

I honestly wonder how many Wizards there are in Beta, or even on test.  I've seen posts from about 5 wizards total giving info on the changes on both of those servers.  I'm really curious as to whether all the wizards there are happy, have quit, just don't like posting on forums, or if there is a lack of class representation for us in beta/test. <div></div>

[Khalay]

<P>Yes i agree. The beta testing wizards arent very forthcoming about their experiences on test. There are some who make an effort to get the message across, and do post some stuff. Kudos to you. You know who you are.</P> <P> </P> <P>Why we dont have a group elemental debuff spell anymore is beyond me. I really cant see any reason it has been taken away from us...</P>

[goboy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brow27 wrote:<BR>I honestly wonder how many Wizards there are in Beta, or even on test.  I've seen posts from about 5 wizards total giving info on the changes on both of those servers.  I'm really curious as to whether all the wizards there are happy, have quit, just don't like posting on forums, or if there is a lack of class representation for us in beta/test.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I know of three of us at level 50 on test who play a bit.  I have not been giving feedback in a while because they keep breaking test.  Kind of pointless to give impressions when we do not get updated with enough frequency.  </P> <P>Take the last patch for example.  I noticied within 5 minutes that intelligence was borked and providing full benefits at low intelligence.  Turns out all attributes are - kiss my 47% avoidance away.  Now, they have fixed it on beta but test is still testing a major broken patch. </P> <P>Is test getting a bit jaded - I know I am.  Every patch they give us is either behind beta or broken.  Our comments currenlty mean little since we are not testing the latest fixes.  </P> <P>How hard are mobs?  I have no idea since my spells are all doing maximum damage and I have maximum avoidance due to the attribute bug.</P> <DIV>One recommendation from test (thread I started) is to delay the live udpate another week.  What I am testing is not ready for live.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blindrage]

<DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>As of today's update to Beta, barring any actual broken functionality (i.e. spells not working at all), we're comfortable with where both Wizards and Warlocks are on the burst DPS and over-time DPS on the curves.<BR><BR>Suprisingly, tracking damage done across all of beta, ***Warlocks rank #1 or #2*** in almost every sampling except where I broke a spell for a few days or a spell was doing much less than intended damage (Soul Blister being the wrong spell, etc.).<BR><BR>I am sure there will continue to be tweaks to spells for every spell-casting class continuing past the release of the expansion and revamp. For now, things are pretty close to where they should be by our observations in relation to other Mage subclasses and other professions in general.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>****I thought Wizard and Warlocks DPS was suppose to be even?****  if its like it is on live now, i.e. warlocks superior by far, im done with this bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  and yes, I think the wizards community except for a few is pretty quiet, which is unfortunate.</FONT></DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blindrage wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>As of today's update to Beta, barring any actual broken functionality (i.e. spells not working at all), we're comfortable with where both Wizards and Warlocks are on the burst DPS and over-time DPS on the curves.<BR><BR>Suprisingly, tracking damage done across all of beta, ***Warlocks rank #1 or #2*** in almost every sampling except where I broke a spell for a few days or a spell was doing much less than intended damage (Soul Blister being the wrong spell, etc.).<BR><BR>I am sure there will continue to be tweaks to spells for every spell-casting class continuing past the release of the expansion and revamp. For now, things are pretty close to where they should be by our observations in relation to other Mage subclasses and other professions in general.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>****I thought Wizard and Warlocks DPS was suppose to be even?****  if its like it is on live now, i.e. warlocks superior by far, im done with this bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  and yes, I think the wizards community except for a few is pretty quiet, which is unfortunate.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is what I see forthcoming.</P> <P>They have managed to do all of this crazyness and we wind up back where we were LOL.</P> <P>The entire SOE process is ridiculous.</P> <P>Now according to the latest patch many spells have been nerfed and wizards have a significant reduction in speed while invisible and are unable to group buff and the mana transfers are decreased.</P> <P>I always knew that I would be wanted in a raid because I would focus on mana transfers on the healers, main tank and main assist and cast frozen manacles and icy flame on the epic - then icy flame's speed reduction stopped working on epics so I just used frozen manacles ( please note that both icy flame and frozen manacles are used by warlocks) and that would stifle the mob.</P> <P>Then I would help with the adds (but the warlocks are more effective at that) and then refocus on mana transfers until the main mob would get to 40% health. Once the mob reached 40% health I would start nuking and trying to debuff - but really mostly mana transfer.</P> <P>AS IT STANDS IN MY OPINION:</P> <P>Wizards appear to be the second class citizen's and we will all be back here yelling and screaming while SOE thinks they did a great job ( Like FEMA does).</P> <P>If anyone has anything contrary to my opinion or has some real facts please let me know and let the wizard community know. </P> <P> </P> <P>This is the most idiotic remark I have ever seen posted here. Think about it, how is a developer going to post and say Warlocks are #1 or #2 - that means that this person does not know what he/she is speaking of.</P> <P>It is either Warlocks are #1 or #2 or are even with wizards on the average.</P> <P>Or this person could have said Warlocks are #1 in ae damage or direct damage or #2 in dierct damage and #1 in ae damage.</P> <P>I personally think that whoever made that post should know  by know how SOE customers interpret things and that they require details and clarity.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Lady Uaelrea on <span class=date_text>09-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 PM</span>

[Nerga]

<DIV>The last time I checked Wizards and Warlocks are SUPPOSED to be the number one DPS classes.....its either me or the dev that is smoking something...but I see no smoke here.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So they got us to where we should be ,at the tops dps since we have nothing else to offer groups/raids and then they reduce our dmg for what reason???????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again the changes have NO stedy trend.SOE zig zaging across the board.Soon bruisers/zerkers will be back to thier high DPS position like on live and will keep soloing epics (been done by friends).</DIV>

[Aeva]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OneBadAlien wrote:<BR> <DIV>So im looking over the beta boards, and over the spell changes/feedback forums and i see tons of warlocks expressing their concerns about changes, and u know what? They are being listened to, and devs ARE making changes that favor warlocks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I figure about 1/4 of the whiny wizards gave up  and quit the game and another 1/4 gave up and rerolled warlocks, sure wish I had joined this latter group long ago <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[3C HAVOK]

As a level 50 on live i would love to post about what needs to be tweeked for wizards, the only problem is i dont have a level 50 on test and im not in the beta, So i have to wait for the expansion and see where im at then. I will say i never gave a crap how much warlocs did compared to how much i do, It doesnt matter to me. I play a wiz to have fun and i like my wiz, I dont have the be # 1 inm the game at this or at that, As long as when im in a group i can cast some nukes and take down so cool mobs with my regualr group ill be happy. I do want the resists on raids to be looked at though, With noe mana feeds any more if the resists stay where they are at my wizard brothers and sisters wont be able to pay to get on a raid team., <div></div>

[Silentsta]

I dont know about anyone else, but I for one, want to get my hands on it and see the changes for myself.  So Im not going to rant off on a screen shot or a post on someone elses experience.  I have a good bit of guildmates that got into beta (sadly no wizards) that read the forums before hand, were worried about their class, tested it and said:  This isnt as bad as I thought. I do have a test wizard, but like Goboy said, test is behind beta.  So Im going to download DoF when it goes live, and play it for myself.  Then, post suggestions from what I, myself experience :smileyvery-happy:

[goboy]

If warlocks are #1 or #2 - then who is #1 when they are #2?  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, was his post taken out of context perhaps?  Was he responding to warlocks or mages in general?  </DIV>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>goboy wrote:If warlocks are #1 or #2 - then who is #1 when they are #2?  <div> </div> <div>So, was his post taken out of context perhaps?  Was he responding to warlocks or mages in general?  </div><hr></blockquote>Context was in relation to Wizards and Warlocks - in the context of the full post the 'other party' was very clearly Wizards.</span><div></div>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3C HAVOK wrote:<BR>As a level 50 on live i would love to post about what needs to be tweeked for wizards, the only problem is i dont have a level 50 on test and im not in the beta, So i have to wait for the expansion and see where im at then. I will say i never gave a crap how much warlocs did compared to how much i do, It doesnt matter to me. I play a wiz to have fun and i like my wiz, I dont have the be # 1 inm the game at this or at that, As long as when im in a group i can cast some nukes and take down so cool mobs with my regualr group ill be happy. I do want the resists on raids to be looked at though, With noe mana feeds any more if the resists stay where they are at my wizard brothers and sisters wont be able to pay to get on a raid team.,<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You se,e unlike you, a good deal of wizards CARE if they are second-rate in their primary function because they told Telamina Garendell that they would rather be wizards over warlocks.

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tar~Palantir wrote:<blockquote><hr> </blockquote>You se,e unlike you, a good deal of wizards CARE if they are second-rate in their primary function because they told Telamina Garendell that they would rather be wizards over warlocks. <hr></blockquote>TP, here's a clarification from Scott Hatrsman on what EJdev said - as you'll see SOE are saying that Wizards and Warlocks swap the #1 and #2 dps positions based on the situation. Sounds fair to me ... </span> <div><font color="#cc0000">To clarify EJ's comment:</font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">Of all of the fights that have occurred on Test and Beta over the past week (every one of the thousands of fights have been recorded, stored, and parsed):</font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">In terms of DPS, Wizards and Warlocks trade positions between #1 and #2 depending on: fight length, target choice, # of targets.    There are situations in which Warlocks are #1.  There are situations in which Wizards are #1.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">Both are highly desirable, and objectively speaking neither one is overpowered when compared to the other.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">That said, let's please ease up on the "grass is greener" threads.  At the end of the day, if your class is useful and fun, you win.  I'll respectfully request that people focus on that.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">Thanks,</font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc0000">- Scott</font></div> <p><font color="#cc0000">____</font><font color="#cc0000"> </font><font color="#cc0000">Scott Hartsman</font><font color="#cc0000"> </font><font color="#cc0000">Senior Producer, EverQuest II</font> </p> <div></div>

[Tar~Palantir]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magiocracy wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tar~Palantir wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You se,e unlike you, a good deal of wizards CARE if they are second-rate in their primary function because they told Telamina Garendell that they would rather be wizards over warlocks. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>TP, here's a clarification from Scott Hatrsman on what EJdev said - as you'll see SOE are saying that Wizards and Warlocks swap the #1 and #2 dps positions based on the situation. Sounds fair to me ...<BR><BR></SPAN> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>To clarify EJ's comment:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>Of all of the fights that have occurred on Test and Beta over the past week (every one of the thousands of fights have been recorded, stored, and parsed):</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>In terms of DPS, Wizards and Warlocks trade positions between #1 and #2 depending on: fight length, target choice, # of targets.    There are situations in which Warlocks are #1.  There are situations in which Wizards are #1.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>Both are highly desirable, and objectively speaking neither one is overpowered when compared to the other.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>That said, let's please ease up on the "grass is greener" threads.  At the end of the day, if your class is useful and fun, you win.  I'll respectfully request that people focus on that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>Thanks,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>- Scott</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>____</FONT><FONT color=#cc0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#cc0000>Scott Hartsman</FONT><FONT color=#cc0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#cc0000>Senior Producer, EverQuest II</FONT> </P><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes I saw that post right after I posted my earlier one in this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still stand wholehearrtedly by my comment. Why?  The wizards who actually have a tongue are speaking up, and being silenced.  In the "Wizards wake up" thread in the test feedback forums, the last post was made by gallenite(scott hartsman), that Magiocracy quoted above.   He then locked the thread so no one could challenge him.  Maybe I will trust the devs when they play their own creation instead of WoW. </DIV>

[Aeva]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033>Of all of the fights that have occurred on Test and Beta over the past week (every one of the thousands of fights have been recorded, stored, and parsed):</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033>In terms of DPS, Wizards and Warlocks trade positions between #1 and #2 depending on: fight length, target choice, # of targets.    There are situations in which Warlocks are #1.  There are situations in which Wizards are #1.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>here appears to be the problem, the fools are parsing All fights.  Of course wizards will be number one when it comes to one shotting green solo mobs. the problems as I see them from the sideline are </DIV> <DIV>1. our AoE lines need to be boosted so the gap between wiz and warl is not so huge on aoe</DIV> <DIV>2. our power usage is just to high, on live its probably 3 times what warlocks is, yea, they are less power efficient than live but still not nearly as bad as wizards I bet.</DIV> <DIV>3. resists.... still....</DIV></DIV></DIV>

[goboy]

<P>So,</P> <P>Aevarr are you in beta with some insight or are your comments pure speculation?  I play on test and unfortunately do not have a warlock to compare with.  I also do not raid much.</P> <P>The only real evidence I have seen was teh 411 post.  That was pure raider though.  So, from raider and soloer I see no major problems (mob tweaking aside).  Group play I cannot comment on as I rarely group.  Test being the way it is, you group with friends - noone worries too much about finding the perfrect group.</P> <P> </P>

[Andre]

For sure his post are pure truth espetially if you take in equation that he speak about wizard that casts Single taget nukes and warlock that forced to cast AoE nukes (as example 389 power) because they have very weak single target nukes. Only wizards who never looked at what happen with warlocks on test and soon will happen on life could say such NONCENCE <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aevarr wrote:<div> <div> <div><font color="#ff0033">Of all of the fights that have occurred on Test and Beta over the past week (every one of the thousands of fights have been recorded, stored, and parsed):</font></div> <div><font color="#ff0033"></font> </div> <div><font color="#ff0033">In terms of DPS, Wizards and Warlocks trade positions between #1 and #2 depending on: fight length, target choice, # of targets.    There are situations in which Warlocks are #1.  There are situations in which Wizards are #1.</font></div> <div><font color="#ff0033"></font> </div> <div>here appears to be the problem, the fools are parsing All fights.  Of course wizards will be number one when it comes to one shotting green solo mobs. the problems as I see them from the sideline are </div> <div>1. our AoE lines need to be boosted so the gap between wiz and warl is not so huge on aoe</div> <div>2. our power usage is just to high, on live its probably 3 times what warlocks is, yea, they are less power efficient than live but still not nearly as bad as wizards I bet.</div> <div>3. resists.... still....</div></div></div><hr></blockquote>To be fair we have no idea what types of fight's they're parsing, whether they're giving weight to raid parses etc etc....it seems like you're deliberately trying to come up with the worst possible scenario. 1.No your AOE does not need to be boosted quite frankly. I also don't believe incidently that Warlock single target needs boosting either (plenty would disagree with me ). That's how SOE are differentiating the classes . 2. Power usage IS a huge issue - for both classes. Arguably it's worse for Warlocks since we will tend to use our AE spells on single mobs. 3. Resists, no evidence one way or the other that these have changed, so until there's hard proof I guess Wizards have every right to continue to be concerned. ...and looking at the spell lists does not tell the whole story by a long shot - mob hp have changed, con system has changed, resistances have changed, aggro has changed - so until you actually play with these changes in place you're quite frankly not in a position to judge them. Same goes for Warlocks too.</span><div></div>

[Aeva]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> goboy wrote:<BR> <P>So,</P> <P>Aevarr are you in beta with some insight or are your comments pure speculation?  I play on test and unfortunately do not have a warlock to compare with.  I also do not raid much.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought I implied quite clearly that I am observing this from the side line and I was unaware that I had to be in beta to have a clue what was going on, or be allowed to form an opinion.</P> <P>to the warlock above, ice comet uses 327 power, hits 1/5th the targets your AOE's do; none of our nukes return power to us so they are far less efficient than yours. on live your 3 times as efficient  and my guess is even after your efficiency  nerfs you will still be far more efficient than wizards. I'll find out in 3 days....<BR></P>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aevarr wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> goboy wrote: <p>So,</p> <p>Aevarr are you in beta with some insight or are your comments pure speculation?  I play on test and unfortunately do not have a warlock to compare with.  I also do not raid much.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I thought I implied quite clearly that I am observing this from the side line and I was unaware that I had to be in beta to have a clue what was going on, or be allowed to form an opinion.</p> <p>to the warlock above, ice comet uses 327 power, hits 1/5th the targets your AOE's do; none of our nukes return power to us so they are far less efficient than yours. on live your 3 times as efficient  and my guess is even after your efficiency  nerfs you will still be far more efficient than wizards. I'll find out in 3 days....</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>You're largely right Aevarr - in a situation with a group of solo mobs (loads of these in DoF) a Warlocks power efficiency increases as the number of mobs in the encounter increase, up to 5. However on a single mob your Ice Comet is roughly twice as efficient as our Devastation, so, as always, it depends on what you're fighting. Wizards will largely want to look out for single targets while Warlocks will want to look for groups. Our Distortion line IS more power efficient than the Wizards ball line, but it also has a 30% longer recast time. There was a dev post somewhere that said that this was the exact tradeoff they wanted - Wizard gets faster single target dps but it cost's more mana. I think I've said this before - power management is going to be THE biggest issue for both classes when this goes live. </span><div></div>

[CrimsonAveng]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote:<BR><BR>It's the same thing here. Warlocks were massively overpowered from the get go (some Dev plays one obviously) and wizards are much weaker, despite the fact they should be equal but focuses on doing damage of different types by SOE's own definition.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>I don't want to start yet another Wizzy/warlock argument but this statement is just flat out wrong. Some people seem to forget that from launch in the end of Februray (when our Distortion line got a 2.5x increase), Warlocks were the [Removed for Content] child of the mages. So for the first 4 months of this game, us Warlocks were the weaker ones (much weaker). We got stronger and stay strong (until 9/12) but dont go spreading that we were gtg from the start. It simply isnt true. Maybe the DEVs started playing warlocks in Feb.....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT><BR> </DIV>

[tharvey]

<P><FONT size=2>To address the original point of the post, resistance debuffs were scaled back throughout the mage archetype. Summoners now can only debuff Elemental or Noxious resistances, and it must be done via the pet, which may or may not cooperate with when they need the debuff. Previously they could debuff Magic with 2 different spell lines. We got to keep our targeted single debuff line, and it's fairly cheap in casting cost. This gives us a fair amount of flexibility on when to land it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Also, warlocks are clearly supposed to be better at AE while we're better at focusing on one target and blowing it up. I think it's appropriate that we lost the AE debuff. I think the classes are actually fairly close to balanced with each other... though with the environment is another issue of course.</FONT></P>

[3C HAVOK]

Tar,    I just never thought of my wiz as second rate, I guess thats the diffrence between you and me. I just dont look at that stuff  i dont  compare my wiz with any other wiz nor do i compare her to warlocks. She is kena, and she does what she does, I have never had a problem getting a group and i totaly rock when im in a group. The main problem that i have seen with wizards was the raid mob resistances, if that gets fixed we are good. The only change that i am a bit miffed over is the loss of my mana feeds, I have saved a group so many times with those and it added just a bit more to my class and my decision making. Should i nuke or should i feed the healer and mt?  Do they now have enough power to kill that last add? I loved making those decisions but im sure there will be new decisions for me to make. Im sorry if i dont take the " I must be the #1 suchandsuch" mentality. I dont care what warlocks do, I dont care waht guardians can solo and i dont care what dps an assasian can do. Im sorry if you dont understand that.        Now after i play the combat changes if i think there are things that need to be changed you can bet i will post them. I wont post "hey soe you suck, you broke my class im leaving" crap, I will post what i think is wrong, How i think it needs to be fixed. Never in any of my posts will you see me call for a nerf on this class or that class.  This is how we can get things fixed. <div></div>

[blynchehaun]

Kena: well said. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>goboy wrote: The only real evidence I have seen was teh 411 post. <hr></blockquote>Yes, but that was before the big ae dot nerf and before surging tempest became a power draining dot (among other things).</span><div></div>

[Bridgeplay]

<P>Many of us have seen the Manaburn fiasco that occured when SoE nerfed wizards in EQ1. Go to that forum and read how long SoE has been promising wizards a fix that has never been delivered.</P> <P>SoE has allowed the majority of classes in EQ1 to become downgraded into second-rate filler, while the few favored classes rule the game. Wizards, who were once among the best EQ1 classes at dps, are now just middle-of-the-pack substitutes for when the better classes aren't available.</P> <P>The upcoming changes in PLing, forced grouping, etc. have made it clear that SoE wants EQ2 to be made into another version of EQ1. If you're in one of the favored classes, the game should be fun. If you're in one of the second-rate filler classes, take another look at the EQ1 boards and you'll see that once a class gets nerfed, it doesn't recover.</P> <P> </P>

[goboy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bridgeplay wrote:<BR> <P>Many of us have seen the Manaburn fiasco that occured when SoE nerfed wizards in EQ1. Go to that forum and read how long SoE has been promising wizards a fix that has never been delivered.</P> <P>SoE has allowed the majority of classes in EQ1 to become downgraded into second-rate filler, while the few favored classes rule the game. Wizards, who were once among the best EQ1 classes at dps, are now just middle-of-the-pack substitutes for when the better classes aren't available.</P> <P>The upcoming changes in PLing, forced grouping, etc. have made it clear that SoE wants EQ2 to be made into another version of EQ1. If you're in one of the favored classes, the game should be fun. If you're in one of the second-rate filler classes, take another look at the EQ1 boards and you'll see that once a class gets nerfed, it doesn't recover.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I played a druid and paladin in EQ1.  Hybrid classes were always a joke - there was no real vision behind them except they should not be better then a pure character.  This was hogwash and never worked.</P> <P>I do not belive they are trying to make EQ2 into EQ1.  For one, I do not see any required classes.  There are required functions not classes.  Also, why do you think grouping is necessary?  I can solo just fine at the moment (better then yesterday).  Of course, I cannot solo heroic mobs - but they were designed around groups. </P> <P>The real problem appears to be with non-standard groups.  I know some healer/mage duo's that are hurting. </P> <P>Jaly 50 wizard/sage test.</P>

[finnean]

Well not to happy about the newest change,  my app2 ice comet  on test just got 10% dmg added so now is 3178, but min dmg is 1059.   all spells have had their min dmg lower it says  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[goboy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> finnean wrote:<BR> Well not to happy about the newest change,  my app2 ice comet  on test just got 10% dmg added so now is 3178, but min dmg is 1059.   all spells have had their min dmg lower it says  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, was wondering if it wil be a linear increase up and down - basically dps would stay about the same.  If the low end is much lower, then it will drop.</P> <P>Warlocks were also affected teh same way.</P> <P> </P>

[Magiocracy]

It's happened to Warlocks as well - looks like the min damage went down much more than the max damage went up. In other words - nerf to all sorcerer damage. <div></div>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magiocracy wrote:<BR>It's happened to Warlocks as well - looks like the min damage went down much more than the max damage went up. In other words - nerf to all sorcerer damage.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Khabalis:</P> <P>If this is true it will not matter if it is relative across npc's and other classes.</P> <P>Is there any possible way that you can meet up with a wizard and try out different types of mobs. You are obviously proficient in investigating things.</P> <P>Can you come up with various mob type levels and parse with a  wizard that is on par with you.</P> <P>Let us know- <FONT color=#ff6666 size=4><STRONG>Wizards and Warlocks let's work together.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magiocracy wrote:<BR>It's happened to Warlocks as well - looks like the min damage went down much more than the max damage went up. In other words - nerf to all sorcerer damage.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Considering what we sacrifice, our damage is all we have, when we lose that, our character's whole self is eroded.

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lady Uaelrea wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Magiocracy wrote:It's happened to Warlocks as well - looks like the min damage went down much more than the max damage went up. In other words - nerf to all sorcerer damage. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Khabalis:</p> <p>If this is true it will not matter if it is relative across npc's and other classes.</p> <p>Is there any possible way that you can meet up with a wizard and try out different types of mobs. You are obviously proficient in investigating things.</p> <p>Can you come up with various mob type levels and parse with a  wizard that is on par with you.</p> <p>Let us know- <font color="#ff6666" size="4"><strong>Wizards and Warlocks let's work together.</strong></font></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>We're doing our best to....explain...to the devs in beta just how bad an idea this is.</span><div></div>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>Your work is GREATLY APPRECIATED KHABALIS!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who is/are the wizard/wizards you are working with.</DIV>

[Kuva]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magiocracy wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>We're doing our best to....explain...to the devs in beta just how bad an idea this is.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thank you. I hate RNG dominated mechnaics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OT: any idea when beta will end? Tonight? Tomorrow night?</DIV>

[Amistead]

<DIV> <P>Why we dont have a group elemental debuff spell anymore is beyond me. I really cant see any reason it has been taken away from us...</P> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Even though I'm sure to get flamed by Tar Palantir, here's a little info.  </P> <P>Wizards                                                                                                                      Warlocks </P> <P>The Wizard Piercing Icicles line remains a single target debuff.                             Chaotic Maelstrom debuffs one mob, and has a 50% chance to spread to </P> <P>-It deals initial damage+DOT damage.                                                                      other mobs in the encounter.  -It deals no damage. </P> <P>(Power costs/Cast times/Recast times/Durations/Debuff amounts nearly identical)</P> <P>All other debuff components were removed, Immolation, Freezing Wind, Curse of Emptiness, etc.  Both Wizards and Warlocks now have one damage debuff.  The Wizard version is single target with damage, the Warlock one spreads around the encounter, but deals no damage.  </P> <P> </P> <P>   So, the Devs are following the new class descriptions.  Warlocks are being made into AOE specialists, ergo Warlocks get an AOE debuff.  Wizards get bigger single target nukes, and a debuff that is better on single targets.</P> <P> </P> <P>Alezara</P> <P>Warlock of the 50th Order</P> <P>-=Pandemonium/Unrest=-</P></DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>:smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does not make any sense why they would do this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks and Wizards should both do effective AE and DD and the only difference should be the origin of their power.</DIV> <DIV>Warlocks benefit - they should have the HP/ power drain. ( I forget which it is that they do)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards benefit - they should have the good power transfer. ( mana feeds + good dps = makes a great class).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is only an opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THE BIG ISSUE IS RESISTANCES NOW. AE OR DD EFFECT MEAN NOTHING IF OUR SPELLS DO NOT LAND.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lady Uaelrea on <span class=date_text>09-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 AM</span>