Norrath falls silent for a moment as the wizard dev speaks...

[Kuva]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Posted by developr EJdev on the beta forum about half an hour ago... <font color="66FF00">EJdev wrote: </font> <font color="FFFF99"> Greetings wizards! We've been quiet the last week as we tried to finalize any functionality issues that remain (obviously, some still exist and we're resolving those ASAP). Now it is time to start the evaluation of subjective gameplay concerns with each profession. Below is a list of specific issues that I have noted or I am already lo</font> <font color="#ffff99">oking at for Wizards. Please note: I do not have definite answers on the changes to come today, just that these have been identified and are being looked at: !!General (i.e. not limited to Wizards) - <b>Root changes</b> - Root has taken a definite perception hit with the changes. A completely unbreakable root is not something that will return; <font color="FF0000">however, we are evaluating the durations versus recast time versus cast time of root-e</font></font><font color="FFFF99"><font color="FF0000">ffect spells.</font> <b>Protoflame</b> - Protoflame is currently much more powerful than its Warlock counterpart, the Netheros. In general, it sounds like the Protoflame pet need some adjust when it is summoned at higher ranks, and possibly non-Summoner dumbfire pets in general. <font color="FF0000">It is highly likely than the current incarnation of Protoflame will be toned down</font> (especially at higher ranks such as Master II). <b>Icy Gifts line</b> - (Icebound Gift, etc.) Actually this is a !!General issue as much as it is a Wizard issue. I am evaluating these extremely short duration buffs/debuffs (10s or less), and looking at a way to extend their length without making them too powerful. The goal here is make these spells feel useful and not too complicated or annoying. !!General (i.e. not limited to Wizards) - <b>Detection and Invisibility</b> - Invisibility and Stealth are in the process of receiving a major overhaul (Scouts can attest to the pain of the current implementation). This includes their respective detection spells/abilities.<font color="FF0000"> The goal here is to make spells that are useful </font>and not spells that exist just for the sake of upgrading. This may very well include removal of upgrades/later spells in an Invis or See Invis line, especially if the upgrade offers no new functionality. As with all the listed changes, I'll post more details as things solidify today and tomorrow. Note; To non-Wizards, the issues marked !!General will also be listed in a post in the Main Spell/Combat art revamp folder. I am posting here first since they are issues directly affecting Wizards.</font> <p>Message Edited by Kuvala on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 PM</span>

[Mystild]

<P>ty for posting this <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>wasn't aware of proto being THAT good</P>

[123467]

<U>Increase</U> damage on Netheros, dont nerf Protoflame back to oblivion. We want spells we use, not spells that take up places in the back of the spellbook!

[goboy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mystildur wrote:<BR> <P>ty for posting this <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>wasn't aware of proto being THAT good</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It is.  I am enjoying my master II protoflame on test.  However, it may hold aggro a bit too good.  Oh well, adapt and learn.

[adamflanagan]

<span><blockquote><hr>goboy wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Mystildur wrote: <div></div> <p>ty for posting this <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>wasn't aware of proto being THAT good</p> <hr> </blockquote>It is.  I am enjoying my master II protoflame on test.  However, it may hold aggro a bit too good.  Oh well, adapt and learn. <div></div><hr></blockquote>protoflame is seriously overpowered on beta atm... i have absolutly no problem kill blue ^^^s with PF tanking. it can easily hold aggro after i cast ice comet, surging tempest and paralyse. the damaing isnt the issue, it has too many HPs and can hold aggro very easily.</span><div></div>

[papabear0]

protoflame should not be able to hold any kind of agro.  its suppose to be more like a dot than a pet.  we're not a pet class.

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> papabear005 wrote:<BR>protoflame should not be able to hold any kind of agro.  its suppose to be more like a dot than a pet.  we're not a pet class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So how exactly are you supposed to 'hold' a mob since SOE nerfed all our roots and stuns? I was hoping Netheros would get a boost (it currently has a useless 20 sec duration), instead of nerfing protoflame, arghh.</P> <P> </P>

[ailees]

<div></div>I've been a magician in EQ1 for Almost 6 years. I know what a pet class is. Now I want to be a wizard, kaboom, kaboom. I can accept having utility, I don't want any tanking pet. Dot-like pets are OK if they do damage and don't have much health. How am I suppose to hold a mob rushing at me ? well i'm not supposed to do it for long ! and certainly NOT with a pet. That's summoner's way, NO NO NO NO. I kill him before he hits me, if I can't, then I should not fight it... Heroic, double up-arrow group or that kind of mobs are not for me. <div></div><p>Message Edited by ailees on <span class=date_text>08-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

[tass]

wizards had a tank pet? huh must have not gotten high enough for that spell. shame though, that woulda made the wizard class altimate, but if ya wana pet class get the conjurer. <div></div>

[Ghostbeard]

<span><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote: <blockquote> <hr> papabear005 wrote:protoflame should not be able to hold any kind of agro.  its suppose to be more like a dot than a pet.  we're not a pet class. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>So how exactly are you supposed to 'hold' a mob since SOE nerfed all our roots and stuns? I was hoping Netheros would get a boost (it currently has a useless 20 sec duration), instead of nerfing protoflame, arghh.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Simply put... you're not supposed to be able to "hold" a mob. Period. You're supposed to go get in a group - whether you like it or not - or consign yourself to killing greens or low blues. You know... Like EQ1. </span><div></div>

[Fizby]

And if the WAS EQ1 i would accept that but this is NOT and this game was supposed to be about balance where i could, even as a wizard, solo mobs a tank could solo. PF would have allowed that. Like was stated since the F'd up our roots this was going to be the solution but i guess not. <p>Message Edited by Fizbynn on <span class=date_text>08-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

[papabear0]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MilkToast wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> papabear005 wrote:<BR>protoflame should not be able to hold any kind of agro.  its suppose to be more like a dot than a pet.  we're not a pet class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So how exactly are you supposed to 'hold' a mob since SOE nerfed all our roots and stuns? I was hoping Netheros would get a boost (it currently has a useless 20 sec duration), instead of nerfing protoflame, arghh.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>you can kill any solo mobs up to your lvl at anytime.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what you really want to do is to solo double up mobs.  you can't, your not suppose to.  no one is.  if no one can solo group mobs, then thats sounds pretty fair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there's a lot of complaining about ring of cold and how it's killling the solo game.  its not about the solo idividual who wants to do some challenging fights,  its more about people like me.  i raid a lot, i have mostly fabled gear.  im not going after double ups, i will be going after all non epic named mobs and if i see them up, they die.  does that sound fair?  to me, it doesnt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>unbreakable roots are way too overpowering,  no class should have em.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>papabear005 wrote:</P> <P>what you really want to do is to solo double up mobs.  you can't, your not suppose to.  no one is.  if no one can solo group mobs, then thats sounds pretty fair.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>your plain wrong.  Moorguard has already posted that classes may be able to solo "group" heroic fights with good gear and spells.  please stop spreading this myth that heroic mobs are not supposed to be soloed because it just isn't true.</DIV>

[curtlewis]

Unbreakable roots are less powerful than stuns. A stun not only holds the mob in place, but they also can't attack, defend or cast. I'm not aware of a stun that lasts as long as RoC does currently, but some other classes get some pretty beefy stuns.I don't believe unbreakable roots are overpowering. I can't resist most special abilities of mobs no matter what my resists are, so why should they escape my root (IF it lands)? In EQ1 we had snares and could kite. We also had AoE DD spells which brought on quadding. That made soling a bit of a trick, but once you learned it, you could get decent xp. Doing single mobs is crap experience and plain not worth it. I literally cannot see my xp bar move if I kill a blue. Well, I couldn't at 49...I'm not asking to have tactical nukes and be the most bodacious [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicker in all of Norrath. I expect the class to require skill to play well. But my time is valuable. Solo mobs aren't worth it even for people with loads of free time. Even orange mobs. At least not post 40. Pre-30 or so, yeah. You could SEE the xp bar move back then.

[goboy]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote:<BR>Unbreakable roots are less powerful than stuns. A stun not only holds the mob in place, but they also can't attack, defend or cast. I'm not aware of a stun that lasts as long as RoC does currently, but some other classes get some pretty beefy stuns.<BR><BR>I don't believe unbreakable roots are overpowering. I can't resist most special abilities of mobs no matter what my resists are, so why should they escape my root (IF it lands)? <BR><BR>In EQ1 we had snares and could kite. We also had AoE DD spells which brought on quadding. That made soling a bit of a trick, but once you learned it, you could get decent xp. Doing single mobs is crap experience and plain not worth it. I literally cannot see my xp bar move if I kill a blue. Well, I couldn't at 49...<BR><BR>I'm not asking to have tactical nukes and be the most bodacious [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicker in all of Norrath. I expect the class to require skill to play well. But my time is valuable. Solo mobs aren't worth it even for people with loads of free time. Even orange mobs. At least not post 40. Pre-30 or so, yeah. You could SEE the xp bar move back then.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unbreakable roots trivialized soloing.  My big complaint is the recast time on roots.  Obviously, we cannot take many hits - but we can actually take a couple.  So when root breaks, it would be nice to be able to reroot and back off.  Stuns, Protoflame, root, and tactics (how you use your spells) should win vs heroic mobs - not an unbreakable root.  I mean, who could not figure out - ROC - nuke nuke nuke, FM - wait, ROC - nuke nuke nuke?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>papabear005 wrote:</P> <P>what you really want to do is to solo double up mobs.  you can't, your not suppose to.  no one is.  if no one can solo group mobs, then thats sounds pretty fair.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>your plain wrong.  Moorguard has already posted that classes may be able to solo "group" heroic fights with good gear and spells.  please stop spreading this myth that heroic mobs are not supposed to be soloed because it just isn't true.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I dunno about that.What it should be is that soloing "group" heroic mobs shouldn't be considered the average. Meaning only a small portion of the game population should be able to do this because of gear and quality of spells. Only those players that have been lucky enough to earn (fairly) the top gear and spells would be able to successfully do this.A player with average gear, and average spell quality would find it very hard, if not impossible to take these mobs.But what alot of people think is that they should beable to do thsi regardless of what gear they have.

[Aeva]

<P>I wish they would just cut protoflames HP way down. </P> <P>the damage is fine, this is how I see it. when a fighter or scout or summoner (perhaps chanters and priests too due to buffs)  is OOP their DPS drops to 60% of their normal.</P> <P>a Sorcerer that is OOP does about 6% of his normal DPS,  I really liked that we would have still had protoflame with not bad dps on its own only needing to be recast once per min....   here we go back to Worthless when OOP....</P> <p>Message Edited by Aevarr on <span class=date_text>08-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[Fizby]

<DIV>thats right we can take couple of hits like 2 or 3 but if the mob get 2 or 3 attacks on us at once like some mobs do we go down instantly.</DIV>

[goboy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fizbynn wrote:<BR> <DIV>thats right we can take couple of hits like 2 or 3 but if the mob get 2 or 3 attacks on us at once like some mobs do we go down instantly.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have not had that happen in a long time.  Now, that could be because of the bug they just announced they were going to fix with strength and melee combat skills.  So, I will withhold judgement until I see how many "hits" I can take.   Right now, I can take more then 4-5 hits from most ^^^ white mobs.  I cannot take many from named heroic mobs - but I doubt they really want named mobs to be soloed.</P> <P> </P>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> goboy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fizbynn wrote:<BR> <DIV>thats right we can take couple of hits like 2 or 3 but if the mob get 2 or 3 attacks on us at once like some mobs do we go down instantly.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have not had that happen in a long time.  Now, that could be because of the bug they just announced they were going to fix with strength and melee combat skills.  So, I will withhold judgement until I see how many "hits" I can take.   Right now, I can take more then 4-5 hits from most ^^^ white mobs.  I cannot take many from named heroic mobs - but I doubt they really want named mobs to be soloed.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If I'm self-buffed there are alot of level 50 or greater ++ mobs (on live), that can 1 shot me if they use the right special. lt probably happens less than 10% of the time but it does happen.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>papabear005 wrote:</P> <P>what you really want to do is to solo double up mobs.  you can't, your not suppose to.  no one is.  if no one can solo group mobs, then thats sounds pretty fair.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>your plain wrong.  Moorguard has already posted that classes may be able to solo "group" heroic fights with good gear and spells.  please stop spreading this myth that heroic mobs are not supposed to be soloed because it just isn't true.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I dunno about that.<BR><BR>What it should be is that soloing "group" heroic mobs shouldn't be considered the average. Meaning only a small portion of the game population should be able to do this because of gear and quality of spells. Only those players that have been lucky enough to earn (fairly) the top gear and spells would be able to successfully do this.<BR><BR>A player with average gear, and average spell quality would find it very hard, if not impossible to take these mobs.<BR><BR>But what alot of people think is that they should beable to do thsi regardless of what gear they have.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>look at the context of his post "no one should be able to"</P> <P>and the context of your post "only those with good gear/spells should be able to"</P> <P> </P> <P>see the difference?</P>

[Redorin]

<DIV>Protoflame right now is to powerful. As a beta buff character with app1 spells and handcrafted gear I can solo lvl 50^^^ mobs with it. The only thing they need to do is get rid of its taunt. I can chain cast every spell in the book and it wont come after me as long as protoflame is alive. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Dev said in his post that he knows roots need to be changed so if they change protoflame (which they will do), they will also change root.</DIV>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Redorin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Protoflame right now is to powerful. As a beta buff character with app1 spells and handcrafted gear I can solo lvl 50^^^ mobs with it. The only thing they need to do is get rid of its taunt. I can chain cast every spell in the book and it wont come after me as long as protoflame is alive. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Dev said in his post that he knows roots need to be changed so if they change protoflame (which they will do), they will also change root.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>hopefully the pendulum doesn't go abck too far.

[Redorin]

<DIV>Well the training choices have all changed now as of yesterdays patch...will try to get more pics of the new training choices (protoflame no longer a choice). From the looks of it they also overdid it on everything else...hoping they change what they did or there will be big problems.</DIV>

[papabear0]

<P>no one is suppose to solo double up named now, but they do.</P> <P>its the nature of the game, the more aggressive players will always push their class to the limits.  even if it means many deaths for small rewards.</P> <P>after the combat changes, few classes will still solo group mobs.  but its a chance they take.  risks vs rewards.</P> <P>but just give wizards unbreakable roots or pets for taking agro while you stun/nuke them to death?  its just wrong.</P> <DIV>personally, i don't think a toon with great gear should be the only ones able to solo group mobs.  it makes it easier but really depends on the person behind the screen.  if you really want something, you'll find a way to get it.</DIV>

[illy586]

<P>Sadly, Wizards and all other mage class took a huge hit in the last beta patch. At lvl 60 with 375int my Ice Comet master 1 only hits for 3800<STRONG>max</STRONG>, and thats the dmg cap for it, no matter how much more int you have, thats less then what it hits for on live... same goes for all our other spells. </P> <P>Only thing thats really upgraded now is protoflame and are AE's.</P> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by illy586 on <span class=date_text>08-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 PM</span>

[stepha72]

<DIV>What patch was this illy586?  So for a couple of weeks we have been seeing our damage numbers and a week before the game comes out our numbers are scaled back?  Do you have screenshots that you can show us of the spells?  If the changed recently I'd love to see the new numbers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please post screenshots if you can of this new information.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV>

[Redorin]

<DIV>Rather not jump to conclusions but yes allt he screenshots on damage you have seen are now wrong. 50 intelligence now only increases a nuke by like 4 damage. There is a big uproar right now so hopefully they will adjust it to a better level. Going to wait to post screenshots until I know this is the way they are going.</DIV>

[Magiocracy]

Aye, as of yesterdays beta patch each point of INT now adds something like 0.027% extra damage so effectively the INT bonus is as good as gone. That's meant in many cases a 40% odd loss in total spell damage. Now as Redorin says there's unholy war in the beta forums about this at the minute, so hopefully things will revert to something slightly more sensible soon. <div></div>

[stepha72]

Thanks for the information guys.  Hopefully this will be fixed before the game comes out. 

[adamflanagan]

<span><blockquote><hr>illy586 wrote:<p>Sadly, Wizards and all other mage class took a huge hit in the last beta patch. At lvl 60 with 375int my Ice Comet master 1 only hits for 3700<strong>max</strong>, and thats the dmg cap for it, no matter how much more int you have, thats less then what it hits for on live... same goes for all our other spells. </p> <p>Only thing thats really upgraded now is protoflame and are AE's.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>one of the devs said they are currently tweaking with int and str bonuses on beta. </span><div></div>

[Stavenh]

I gotta say, this game is starting to, well, stink.First, they spent MONTHS telling us how much they are testing the combat changes themselves before moving to test. They tell us INT will give a bonus when compared to the mobs wisdom. Which I think, cool, some mobs we will be more effective against, some less. That sounds like dynamic game play, as you have to figure it out. And then halfway through testing, that is tossed out for, INT just gives you a bonus. Oh, how less dynamic. And while there are alot of good changes, there seems to be more, "Why did you change this?" Meaning stuff that wasn't broken, now are less then what they should be. Basically, they spent 6 months reworking thier systems, and then with 3-4 weeks of player testing, find that it doesn't work.The reports I see are the wizards are becoming more like EQ1 wizards. Yuck. Because porting won't be coming back, it's more like half of what EQ1 wizards are. The game just doesn't sound fun anymore. Mostly because it seems they can't decided what or how the game should work.

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR>I gotta say, this game is starting to, well, stink.<BR><BR>First, they spent MONTHS telling us how much they are testing the combat changes themselves before moving to test. They tell us INT will give a bonus when compared to the mobs wisdom. Which I think, cool, some mobs we will be more effective against, some less. That sounds like dynamic game play, as you have to figure it out.<BR><BR>And then halfway through testing, that is tossed out for, INT just gives you a bonus.<BR><BR>Oh, how less dynamic.<BR><BR>And while there are alot of good changes, there seems to be more, "Why did you change this?" Meaning stuff that wasn't broken, now are less then what they should be.<BR><BR>Basically, they spent 6 months reworking thier systems, and then with 3-4 weeks of player testing, find that it doesn't work.<BR><BR>The reports I see are the wizards are becoming more like EQ1 wizards. Yuck. Because porting won't be coming back, it's more like half of what EQ1 wizards are.<BR><BR>The game just doesn't sound fun anymore. Mostly because it seems they can't decided what or how the game should work.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You're right, it seems like the game is now approaching the condition it should have been in at the start of beta, not the condition you would expect a few weeks before it ships. Considering the major changes that are being made this late in the game I can't really criticize anyone for overreacting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MilkToast wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR>I gotta say, this game is starting to, well, stink.<BR><BR>First, they spent MONTHS telling us how much they are testing the combat changes themselves before moving to test. They tell us INT will give a bonus when compared to the mobs wisdom. Which I think, cool, some mobs we will be more effective against, some less. That sounds like dynamic game play, as you have to figure it out.<BR><BR>And then halfway through testing, that is tossed out for, INT just gives you a bonus.<BR><BR>Oh, how less dynamic.<BR><BR>And while there are alot of good changes, there seems to be more, "Why did you change this?" Meaning stuff that wasn't broken, now are less then what they should be.<BR><BR>Basically, they spent 6 months reworking thier systems, and then with 3-4 weeks of player testing, find that it doesn't work.<BR><BR>The reports I see are the wizards are becoming more like EQ1 wizards. Yuck. Because porting won't be coming back, it's more like half of what EQ1 wizards are.<BR><BR>The game just doesn't sound fun anymore. Mostly because it seems they can't decided what or how the game should work.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You're right, it seems like the game is now approaching the condition it should have been in at the start of beta, not the condition you would expect a few weeks before it ships. Considering the major changes that are being made this late in the game I can't really criticize anyone for overreacting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Roots: up in the air</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protoflame: up in the air</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage: up in the air</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Intelligence: up in the air</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not know about any of you but I really recommend SOE hold back on implementing any half-baked changes until everything is working properly and as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They should extend the beta testing until everything is ironed out. This game is in need of some serious testing still and they should know by now that customers will realize this and not be happy. From reading these forums it appears things are in a state of complete flux.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good Luck.</DIV>

[Redorin]

<P>Well they did this to themsleves by incorporating the combat revamp into DOF. They are locked into releasing it on Sept 13th because I am sure all the CD's and boxes are made and ready to be shipped. Everyone will have to download a big patch on release day which will be the combat changes.</P> <P> </P> <P>To late now to extend beta, we just have to hope.</P>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lady Uaelrea wrote: <blockquote> <hr> <div> </div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Roots: up in the air</div> <div> </div> <div>Protoflame: up in the air</div> <div> </div> <div>Damage: up in the air</div> <div> </div> <div>Intelligence: up in the air</div> <div> </div> <div>I do not know about any of you but I really recommend SOE hold back on implementing any half-baked changes until everything is working properly and as intended.</div> <div> </div> <div>They should extend the beta testing until everything is ironed out. This game is in need of some serious testing still and they should know by now that customers will realize this and not be happy. From reading these forums it appears things are in a state of complete flux.</div> <div> </div> <div>Good Luck.</div><hr></blockquote>I agree, however since SOE don't appear to know how things SHOULD be working, it's pretty difficult for them to figure out if anything is working as intended. This late into beta they should be at the final bug fixing stage, not continuing to make fundamental global changes to the game mechanics. And the months and months of SOE's statements about how they were internally testing the cc changes, that they wanted to get them right before releasing them to the public etc etc really look rather pathetic in retrospect. Almost every single major change in mechanics has been removed/redone in the last month or so, and that can't be good for the game or it's players.</span><div></div>

[jerich]

This reminds me the end of beta. The whole tradeskilling system was changed 3 days before release. I think that the devs don't know their game, and are without control about it. You can't change core aspect of a game 2 weeks before releasing it. This shows clearly that something is very wrong somewhere. Personnaly, I play only because I am in a fine guild, with great peoples. Not for the game, which is rather poor in term of gameplay. I had some expectations about the int change (Im a wizard) but now, Im very disapointed. Bah, now, I don't have any more hope in EQ2; I just wait another game. <div></div>

[Violat0r]

<div></div>good god almighty , listen to you guys If you take the time to read other parts of the forum, you will notice that overall people are very happy with the proposed changes, and understand perfectly the need to test various combinations of spell/combat/buff/etc scaling/balancing which will CONTINUE to vary after the game goes live. I have been reading this forum as one of my guldies has a wizzy alt and was complaining about them being "nerfed". I have been appalled and amused by the attitude of many players. Having a 30 sec unbreakable root is laughably unbalanced. Int scaling WILL remain an important issue after go-live. As soon as it was dumbed down as part of the experimentation process, there were several panicked "OMG INT SCALING... NERF NERF NERF" posts sprang up almost immediately. read other parts of the forum instead of just these whiny posts, this part of the forum is a pit of dispair because of too many people coming forward with completely uninformed BS and heresay. Please keep the discussion objective and well researched. Please stop spreading unfounded rumours and negativity which affects the mindset of your fellow players. WELL PRAISE THE LORD!!! Look at the message entitled "the 411" . Hopefully this will curb the majority of the negativity I have outlined above. Look at this as a learning experience those who complain to quickly and thanks for spreading the sensible discussion those who were discussing rationally. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Violat0r on <span class=date_text>09-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Violat0r wrote:good god almighty , listen to you guys If you take the time to read other parts of the forum, you will notice that overall people are very happy with the proposed changes, and understand perfectly the need to test various combinations of spell/combat/buff/etc scaling/balancing which will CONTINUE to vary after the game goes live. I have been reading this forum as one of my guldies has a wizzy alt and was complaining about them being "nerfed". I have been appalled and amused by the attitude of many players. Having a 30 sec unbreakable root is laughably unbalanced. Int scaling WILL remain an important issue after go-live. As soon as it was dumbed down as part of the experimentation process, there were several panicked "OMG INT SCALING... NERF NERF NERF" posts sprang up almost immediately. read other parts of the forum instead of just these whiny posts, this part of the forum is a pit of dispair because of too many people coming forward with completely uninformed BS and heresay. Please keep the discussion objective and well researched. Please stop spreading unfounded rumours and negativity which affects the mindset of your fellow players. <div></div><hr></blockquote> They realized, much of the game wasn't working the way they wanted it to. It all started with looking into priests healing, which lead to looking into how combat worked. This lead to rethinking how damage is done, and how mobs react to damage. And decided they needed to change the entire combat/spells system.So they spend 6 months working on it, testing it themselves, only to find it didn't work. See the point? Years of development, only to have to say "our systems don't work like we want." 6 months of little information, other then, we aren't going to fix long standing issues only to have them change when the revamp goes live (which is fair enough, really) only to find out the revamp really isn't working either, and so now we are going with a new idea.How long did they spend developing this new idea? How many flaws will a third idea for a workable combat/spell system have without 6 months of testing before letting the players test?In other words, how long till they have a game they like and thinks work well?

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Violat0r wrote:<div></div>good god almighty , listen to you guys If you take the time to read other parts of the forum, you will notice that overall people are very happy with the proposed changes, and understand perfectly the need to test various combinations of spell/combat/buff/etc scaling/balancing which will CONTINUE to vary after the game goes live. I have been reading this forum as one of my guldies has a wizzy alt and was complaining about them being "nerfed". I have been appalled and amused by the attitude of many players. Having a 30 sec unbreakable root is laughably unbalanced. Int scaling WILL remain an important issue after go-live. As soon as it was dumbed down as part of the experimentation process, there were several panicked "OMG INT SCALING... NERF NERF NERF" posts sprang up almost immediately. read other parts of the forum instead of just these whiny posts, this part of the forum is a pit of dispair because of too many people coming forward with completely uninformed BS and heresay. Please keep the discussion objective and well researched. Please stop spreading unfounded rumours and negativity which affects the mindset of your fellow players. WELL PRAISE THE LORD!!! Look at the message entitled "the 411" . Hopefully this will curb the majority of the negativity I have outlined above. Look at this as a learning experience those who complain to quickly and thanks for spreading the sensible discussion those who were discussing rationally. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Violat0r on <span class="date_text">09-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Kindly point out the BS or hearsay in this thread. All I've seen is people from beta (including myself) accurately reporting what's happening there. The raid parses from the 411 thread are useful, but they only tell a tiny tiny part of the story - we don't have comparative data from other raids, we don't know what the resists were like, we don't know what other classes were there etc etc. Blind optimism is as damaging as rampant pessimisn. INT scaling was the single biggest thing that most casters were looking forward to in the changes, hence any suggestion that it isn't going to be meaningful is going to cause people to be upset. Saying 'give SOE time to experiment' would have been fine a month ago, but there's now less than two weeks until launch, and beta could be closed at any point next week, so neither SOE nor us the players have the luxury of 'giving them time'. </span><div></div>

[Tar~Palantir]

<P>OF course now that (it seems) damage is being scaled back, atleast for wizards, please run around like chickens with your heads cut off screaming about the rapture, the sky is falling, yadda yadda, yadda.</P> <P>I really was looking forward to my increased damage.</P> <P>Now all the [Removed for Content] off fighters and priest scream nerf...</P>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Violat0r wrote:<BR> good god almighty , listen to you guys<BR><BR>If you take the time to read other parts of the forum, you will notice that overall people are very happy with the proposed changes, and understand perfectly the need to test various combinations of spell/combat/buff/etc scaling/balancing which will CONTINUE to vary after the game goes live.<BR><BR>I have been reading this forum as one of my guldies has a wizzy alt and was complaining about them being "nerfed". I have been appalled and amused by the attitude of many players.<BR><BR>Having a 30 sec unbreakable root is laughably unbalanced.<BR>Int scaling WILL remain an important issue after go-live. As soon as it was dumbed down as part of the experimentation process, there were several panicked "OMG INT SCALING... NERF NERF NERF" posts sprang up almost immediately.<BR><BR>read other parts of the forum instead of just these whiny posts, this part of the forum is a pit of dispair because of too many people coming forward with completely uninformed BS and heresay.<BR><BR>Please keep the discussion objective and well researched. Please stop spreading unfounded rumours and negativity which affects the mindset of your fellow players.<BR><BR><BR><BR>WELL PRAISE THE LORD!!! Look at the message entitled "the 411" . Hopefully this will curb the majority of the negativity I have outlined above. Look at this as a learning experience those who complain to quickly and thanks for spreading the sensible discussion those who were discussing rationally.<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Violat0r on <SPAN class=date_text>09-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:58 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pardon me, but where do you see anyone complaining about loosing the encounter unbreakable root (which was 36 sec not 30 sec)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When exactly should we express our concerns about the changes being made in the combat revamp / expansion, now when there's still time to get things changed or after the patch when it's too late?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Violat0r wrote:<div></div>good god almighty , listen to you guys If you take the time to read other parts of the forum, you will notice that overall people are very happy with the proposed changes, and understand perfectly the need to test various combinations of spell/combat/buff/etc scaling/balancing which will CONTINUE to vary after the game goes live. I have been reading this forum as one of my guldies has a wizzy alt and was complaining about them being "nerfed". I have been appalled and amused by the attitude of many players. Having a 30 sec unbreakable root is laughably unbalanced. Int scaling WILL remain an important issue after go-live. As soon as it was dumbed down as part of the experimentation process, there were several panicked "OMG INT SCALING... NERF NERF NERF" posts sprang up almost immediately. read other parts of the forum instead of just these whiny posts, this part of the forum is a pit of dispair because of too many people coming forward with completely uninformed BS and heresay. Please keep the discussion objective and well researched. Please stop spreading unfounded rumours and negativity which affects the mindset of your fellow players. WELL PRAISE THE LORD!!! Look at the message entitled "the 411" . Hopefully this will curb the majority of the negativity I have outlined above. Look at this as a learning experience those who complain to quickly and thanks for spreading the sensible discussion those who were discussing rationally. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Violat0r on <span class=date_text>09-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Also, this isn't a simple case of keeping things balanced. Games like this always get tweaked, no doubt about that. This is completely redoing EVERYTHING. And not once, but twice, and still there is no idea how this is going to work. The fact that you need an int of 375 to still be just under the max damage for current live ice comet means they haven't even decided what things should really be.

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Violat0r wrote:<BR> good god almighty , listen to you guys<BR><BR>If you take the time to read other parts of the forum, you will notice that overall people are very happy with the proposed changes, and understand perfectly the need to test various combinations of spell/combat/buff/etc scaling/balancing which will CONTINUE to vary after the game goes live.<BR><BR>I have been reading this forum as one of my guldies has a wizzy alt and was complaining about them being "nerfed". I have been appalled and amused by the attitude of many players.<BR><BR>Having a 30 sec unbreakable root is laughably unbalanced.<BR>Int scaling WILL remain an important issue after go-live. As soon as it was dumbed down as part of the experimentation process, there were several panicked "OMG INT SCALING... NERF NERF NERF" posts sprang up almost immediately.<BR><BR>read other parts of the forum instead of just these whiny posts, this part of the forum is a pit of dispair because of too many people coming forward with completely uninformed BS and heresay.<BR><BR>Please keep the discussion objective and well researched. Please stop spreading unfounded rumours and negativity which affects the mindset of your fellow players.<BR><BR><BR><BR>WELL PRAISE THE LORD!!! Look at the message entitled "the 411" . Hopefully this will curb the majority of the negativity I have outlined above. Look at this as a learning experience those who complain to quickly and thanks for spreading the sensible discussion those who were discussing rationally. <BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Violat0r on <SPAN class=date_text>09-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it is because people are tired of conflicting information and because the game that many people have played for almost a year is in a state of flux.</P> <P>And the game appears to continue to be in a state of flux at this late hour.</P> <P>If you think people are whining - you are entitled to your  opinion. I see these posts as observations from concerned customers.</P> <P>ViolatOr, once the changes are implemented (hopefully they decide soon) people will have the chpice of continuing to play or cancel.</P> <P>I know that if the changes are not an improvement many, many people will just leave and move on to Guild Wars or WOW and wait for Vanguard and DDO.</P> <P>This cycle will continue until someone will actually design a game that has everything and considers all things that make role playing fun.</P> <P>I hope EQ2 gets it together sometime soon, it is so sad that such a visually appealing game has become so bland visually as well as in gameplay.</P> <P> </P> <P>Good Luck. <BR></P>

[Sokolov]

Again, I give the suggestion of the 10x Expansion.  Since everyone is so keen on "increasing" other people's spells so their own won't get "nerfed" the simple solution of SoE is to increase all damage/abilities tenfold.  No actual work has to be done at all.  Wizards will cry for joy at a 30,000 damage nuke, for example, and everyone will be happy.  Cause you know, increasing everyone else's stuff to be in line instead of scaling down is what people calling for, even tho technically it's the same freaking thing. <div></div>

[Phoenix force]

<div></div>hmm i think my DoF order has been canceld... until good news Phoenix Wizard lvl 47 <div></div><p>Message Edited by Phoenix force on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 PM</span>

[Silentsta]

Lady Uaelrea wrote:  think it is because people are tired of conflicting information and because the game that many people have played for almost a year is in a state of flux. <P>And the game appears to continue to be in a state of flux at this late hour.</P> <P>If you think people are whining - you are entitled to your  opinion. I see these posts as observations from concerned customers.</P> <P>ViolatOr, once the changes are implemented (hopefully they decide soon) people will have the chpice of continuing to play or cancel.</P> <P>I know that if the changes are not an improvement many, many people will just leave and move on to Guild Wars or WOW and wait for Vanguard and DDO.</P> <P>This cycle will continue until someone will actually design a game that has everything and considers all things that make role playing fun.</P> <P>I hope EQ2 gets it together sometime soon, it is so sad that such a visually appealing game has become so bland visually as well as in gameplay.</P> <P> </P> <P>Good Luck. <BR></P> <DIV>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats incredible standards you look for in a game, wanting it to have everything.  Sadly that will never happen because people want different things out of their games.  Games like these will always change over time, I sit back and let it.  No use worrying about whats in and whats out.  I pre-ordered DoF and plan on having fun exploring it for myself.  Making my own opinions of what I experience.   </DIV>

[Violator]

<DIV>I understand games change, especially MMO's. Well, thats what everyone says when they have played EQ, or EQ2. Have you ever played FFXI? It has never had this problem, and i dont think guild wars or WOW has had this kind of flux.  I just hope they can keep the game fun, fix broken classes, and be honest to their customers about it. People are generally more [Removed for Content] off about things when they do not know what is going on and their feedback falls on deaf ears.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note, hate that they already *Fixed* Icy Wind.</DIV>

[Sokolov]

Ah, FFXI.  So many good things, yet just missing SOMETHING. But groups were hard to do there.  Had to have a NIN or a PAL or you were screwed.  Had ot have a RDM or a BRD or you were screwed, etc. I played a ranger there.  I felt they were overpowered.  When you play a class that everyone wants in group for DPS over any other class... there is something wrong.  I once got an invite before my Mog House even finished loading if that tells you anything. <div></div>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Violatortn wrote:<BR> <DIV>I understand games change, especially MMO's. Well, thats what everyone says when they have played EQ, or EQ2. Have you ever played FFXI? It has never had this problem, and i dont think guild wars or WOW has had this kind of flux.  I just hope they can keep the game fun, fix broken classes, and be honest to their customers about it. People are generally more [Removed for Content] off about things when they do not know what is going on and their feedback falls on deaf ears.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note, hate that they already *Fixed* Icy Wind.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm not [Removed for Content] off that I don't know what is going on.</P> <P>It's annoying to see system after system get tossed out the window for not working. It's really that simple. </P> <P>I'm all for a complex, flexable system, really. Like I said, the whole idea of INT compared to WIS for how much of a bonus you get. It will make some mobs harder, some easier for mage classes. Wisdom could effect the priest classes in good ways. Like how strenght and agility always meant something.</P> <P>To check on stat against another is dynamic. </P> <P>So under the current system, we get a bonus to damage from INT. And it's gonna take a lot of INT to make a new difference. Since it's suddenly not fair that our bonus for INT would be higher then the one you get from STR for melee combat. Even though it was never an issue that fighters got a bonus for strength and agility for so long, while mages got nothing. </P> <P>Yes, it was ok two archetypes to get ability bonus', while the other two didn't, but it's not ok for Mages to get a bigger DPS bonus then other classes for INT, even though Mages are the DPS classes. </P> <P>Riiiiiiiight.</P>

[Silentsta]

This is true but you are forgetting one big difference between then and now, PVP. The key to this entire balancing system is finding the best fit for everyones spells and skills against mobs and other players.  Thats not a very easy task if you sit back and think about it.  They want every single class able to duel each other and have a chance to win.  They want a players skill to determine a PVP duel rather then who has the biggest nuke.  Once they find the "sweet spot" they have to go back and tweek every single mob in the game so its now not to easy, or to hard to defeat with the new system.  As for the other games you mentioned that havent changed yet, Im not playing those anymore.

[Violator]

<DIV>Yea, I believe that is why our big DD spells are 4 seconds now.. so they are virtually useless come PVP. Ah, how i miss DnD.</DIV>

[Stavenh]

<span><blockquote><hr>Silentstalk wrote:<div></div>This is true but you are forgetting one big difference between then and now, PVP. The key to this entire balancing system is finding the best fit for everyones spells and skills against mobs and other players.  Thats not a very easy task if you sit back and think about it.  They want every single class able to duel each other and have a chance to win.  They want a players skill to determine a PVP duel rather then who has the biggest nuke.  Once they find the "sweet spot" they have to go back and tweek every single mob in the game so its now not to easy, or to hard to defeat with the new system.  As for the other games you mentioned that havent changed yet, Im not playing those anymore.<hr></blockquote>Sure, PVP. Sorry that's not the main focus of the game, it's not at all how you progress through the game, so they are not balancing the game based on PVP. What was the answer to PVP for EQ1 to make sure that one player couldn't one shot kill another? Wizards spells only did 60% damage, and then eventually they added that you couldn't do more then 75% of a players total hit point with one hit (because of pre nerf manaburn, if you don't know what manaburn was, it was a special ability that converted all of a wizards mana into massive damage, we are talking 20k+ damage. They nerfed it down to 9k) I expect this will be a solution to PVP damage from mages. If I wanted to play EQ1, I would. Even Moorgard has said from time to time, this is more like in EQ1. This isn't EQ1, but it's getting closer. </span><div></div>

[Silentsta]

<DIV>PVP is not the main focus of the current game.  Not sure if you got into DoF beta but its a huge chunk of the upcomming game.  The duel arena's are tons of fun with lots of different options of game types.  Sorry but any way you slice it, this new revamp is largely based on the upcomming PVP aspect.</DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Silentstalk wrote: <DIV>PVP is not the main focus of the current game.  Not sure if you got into DoF beta but its a huge chunk of the upcomming game.  The duel arena's are tons of fun with lots of different options of game types.  Sorry but any way you slice it, this new revamp is largely based on the upcomming PVP aspect.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Sorry, no PVP is not the main focus of the game now or in the future. If it was, they wouldn't be putting in an auto decline for dueling challenges. Sorry, anyway you slice it, PVP as the main focus of the game is baloney.

[MilkToa]

If I'm not mistaken, SOE at one point stated that there where 2 different sets of damage tables for each spell, one for PVP and one for PVE. If that's the case then adjusting casting times for PVP makes no sense, SOE could simply adjust the PVP spell damage.

[Silentsta]

Sorry for not making myself clear on my last post.  PVP is the main focus of DoFlame, thats what I meant by "upcomming game".  If you werent lucky enough to get into beta you will clearly see what I mean when and if you get the expansion. 

[UUCyberSte]

Honestly, my biggest problem is that from the lists I've seen so far on the spells (esp. the 40+ spells), is that they mostly list fire-based spells to be upgraded and little to no cold-based spells.  There are 2 reasons for this comment... 1) I'm a quasi RPer, my char hailed from the cold, name is Frostwynn, likes cool colors and tries to cast cold looking spells.  If all of my instant upgrades are all fire, makes me feel ... a little defrosted!  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 2) Fire-resistant critters ... imagine that, into battle and we can't hit them affectively because all of our master spells are fire-based.  Give us something cold oriented to at least allow us some form of damage type balance. Other than that, I'm both open-minded and happy to see the changes that are coming.  I hope you can address this concern, but keep up the good work. Praying to <insert fav god here>,  - Frostwynn <div></div>